Flying for Business Purposes, thoughts?
Posted by Leggggggo11@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 49 comments
Been following this sub for a bit as Im getting close to my check ride (likely mid December).
After that jumping directly into IFR training.
Unlike most here though Im not pursuing a career as a pilot but also just not flying casually / personally. I own my own company now and take somewhere between 150-200 segments on Delta every year across the lower 48. A few friends are commercial cargo pilots or personal GA and got me hooked. Ran the numbers and while it’s not a huge ROI, it looks like I will save money by being able to fly myself to my job sites. Not from a savings on the actual flying but more time, as I wont have to fly in day before and fly out day after due to schedule constraints. Saves on hotel and other associated costs. Also get the expense and depreciation on the accounting side as a fringe benefit.
Anyone here in the same boat? Feel like this is a huge minority of the aviation world.
My next steps are likely buying an IFR M20J in Jan/Feb, keep that from current hours (likely 60 once I take my check ride) to about 400 hours. Mainly use it East of the Mississippi where I can get to places in a couple of hours / fly in & out same day and stick to Delta for anything longer. Then at 400 hours upgrade to a TBM or PC12 turbo prop so i can get cross country (based in RIC).
Just looking for thoughts / guidance / hard lessons learned on my plan from others who may be in this type of aviation world.
classysax4@reddit
I bought my plane and got my PPL to commute for work. I have a 300nm trip from one small town to another that I make every 1-2 weeks. I write off everything. I bought an old truck which I leave at the other airport and drive when I'm at my destination. AMA
More-Mathematician22@reddit
This sounds awesome. What plane? What is the cost per hour? Fixed costs? What work do you do if you don't mind me asking?
classysax4@reddit
I bought a Grumman AA-1B to train in and fly. I'm stepping up to a Long-EZ now that I'm at about 350 hours. The Grumman does 7.5gph and 120kts. I do my oil changes, plan on $3k for annual, insurance is about 1k, and tie-down is $50/mo. I have a small property management company and moved out of state. I'm mostly remote but visit as needed.
More-Mathematician22@reddit
Thanks!
MostNinja2951@reddit
Key question: if you miss a flight how screwed are you? Can you postpone a meeting without issues or are you going to suffer major business consequences if you don't show up? Only flying on the east coast makes weather less of an issue but that M20 isn't going to be able to handle serious IMC and maintenance issues are always a threat. And if you arrange your schedules so you can catch an airline flight as a backup plan say goodbye to all those time savings, you're now spending more time on each trip.
The only way you're likely to make this pay off in practical terms is if your job sites are a long drive from the nearest airport with airline service but close to a GA airport with rental cars available and you have some flexibility to cancel or reschedule trips when the plane doesn't work out.
You might want to talk to some insurance companies before you commit to this plan. The PC12 is a very capable and reliable plane but at 400 hours insurance companies are going to see you as a walking NTSB report and price your insurance appropriately, if they're even willing to offer it at all. And I would take a brutally honest look at the finances of owning and operating a plane like that. I don't know how profitable your particular business is but a big turboprop like that is extremely expensive per hour to operate and catastrophically expensive if you have major maintenance issues.
Leggggggo11@reddit (OP)
All good points.
Yes I miss site walks all the time due to weather and what not. Im in construction consulting in a super specialized niche and really the only person in the country doing it. Most of my project meetings are thru MSTeams as project stake holders are often times all over the country for each project, they rarely visit the site except at final acceptance. I just like visiting the job sites every other week to put my actual eyes on it and check progress. In 2024 based on anticipated full year revenues and calculating based on a 40/hr work week, my billable rate per hour (I don’t charge this way, just for conversation sake) is $648/hr. I typically run 5-10 jobs at a time but only 2-4 in construction as design and close out I don’t have to travel for typically.
As for the 400 hours, thats just a guideline my buddy gave me who flies commercial long haul cargo. Just wanted a stake in the ground and I’m very far from that point. Just included for a sanity check, which 400 hours isn’t reasonable based on all the replies, which Im fine with. Def not rushing anything.
MostNinja2951@reddit
Yeah, sounds like you're in the rare case where you have both a useful role for a plane and the budget to support it. The PC12 might be overly ambitious unless you want that to be your primary luxury and not put as much into real estate, travel for fun, etc, but if the numbers work it's not a ridiculous plan.
dreamingwell@reddit
When your time is worth more than the money, it can make sense.
But you need to be careful of using personal flight as a method to “get there on time”. Forcing yourself to fly in conditions you would not otherwise fly, so that you can be at the business meeting or get back home on time, is a recipe for disaster.
Leggggggo11@reddit (OP)
Yup, totally agree and thanks for the comment!
My CFI has actually said Im one of the most risk averse pilots hes trained (I called off my first solo twice and my first XC solo once). Risk mitigation is a big part of my job so that comes naturally. My plan is to rough check weather a week in advance to my destination and make a go/no go call on buying the commercial ticket (at least then if i get delayed / cancelled I can still blame Delta!). Also nothing I do (construction consulting) is so critical i cant delay my site visit by a day or two.
tomdarch@reddit
I've encountered a few GCs who would be losing their minds about a single day delay getting something reviewed/decided, but that's usually because they aren't really on top of their shit and screaming at everyone else about their tiny delays was a strategy for covering up their own problems.
I think I understand your situation, and my sense is that if you enjoy flying, do it. Once in a while it will work out that you can fly for work, often it won't. As long as you don't set things up to where you have a strong expectation that flying to job sites will need to "pay for itself" or similar, and you take it as "if I can write off flying for work once in a while, that's nice" then you'll be in good shape.
Leggggggo11@reddit (OP)
Correct! Luckily Im not the GC and 99% of the time Ive already built the thing they are building and can make the decision site unseen or worst case with a few photos.
I often ask myself why i have a job but its cause no one else wants to put the time into the niche I have so its all mine.
immaZebrah@reddit
I fly in the bush, so idk if this is even relevant, but I've watched weather forecasts change multiple times over a week when planning flights. But, I fly where there's fairly few weather stations and equipment for observing, reporting, and predicting weather.
dreamingwell@reddit
I highly recommend Cirrus training and planes. Having a whole plane parachute is invaluable. And their planes are stack full of other safety features. A vision jet isn’t much more than a new TBM, and I think you get a lot more safety for your money.
DDX1837@reddit
I did something similar for 15 years with a 182RG. Based in the Chicago area, I would spend 3-5 days a week working in a particular city. The catch is that I HAD to be there on Monday morning. No excuses. If you're not there on Monday morning without a really good reason, you're not working anymore. So I purchased a fully refundable "Provisional" airline ticket. I would use this if weather or equipment prevented me from flying myself. If I was able to fly myself, I cancelled the ticket and applied it to the next ticket. If it was less than 8 hours of driving, I would not get the provisional ticket and just drove if I couldn't fly myself.
The farthest I ever flew for work was to Boston (about 850mi). Most were around 400-500 miles.
The biggest benefit for me was that when I was finished working, I could fly home. Often I would get done around lunch time on the last day. But company policy was that you could not book a flight home before 5pm. So most times, I would be landing at my home field before 5pm. If I flew commercial, I would have to take a chance on standby (good luck with that) or just find some way to kill time for a few hours before heading to the airport.
Leggggggo11@reddit (OP)
This is the thing for me! I give myself so much cushion incase something needed my extended attention when booking commercial but that only happens maybe 5% of my trips. So then I’m just stuck waiting a few hours for a fight, with a connection, and I could almost be home if I flew myself. And Im single and no dependent so if I get stuck for Wx in a location, grab a hotel room.
DDX1837@reddit
In 15 years, I think that I had to wait for weather to return maybe 4 times.
But without an IR, forget it. Winter was usually the biggest challenge for me.
appenz@reddit
I am doing what you are describing, about half of my flying is for business. Did it initially with a Cirrus, now with a shared PC-12. The flexibility is amazing. Planes are one of the very few ways to efficiently trade $$$ for time.
For piston I’d also recommend a Cirrus for safety and dispatch rate. FIKI helps, but in the end you still need to cancel a quarter of flights due to WX (here in California). COPA (Cirrus pilots and owners) is very active and has lots of members doing this.
To move to a PC-12 for me required ~800 hours plus 100 hours with a mentor pilot and insurance coverage initially was less than what I would have liked. Dispatch rate for turbine is much higher than with a piston. It requires at least 3 days of recurrent training per year with Flight Safety or SimCom on site, so it is a commitment. Sharing the plane with others makes sense due to the very high fixed cost. You also need 2-3 pilots that you keep a relationship with for repositioning, MX etc. The community of people doing this with turbine planes is small, we are only a few 100 owner pilots for the PC-12 worldwide.
The SF50 is similar to a turbine in terms of requirements, cost and utility. Other jets are harder, have higher cost and slightly more speed/range. Once you get to mid-sized jets you often need dual pilot and having pilots on staff is cheap compared to everything else.
It’s also great for vacation travel. The Bahamas and the small airports in the American west by plane are ridiculous fun.
You do need an aviation tax specialist and keep detailed logs to make sure everything is accounted for correctly.
TL;DR: It works, costs $$$, is a major time commitment and I personally love doing it!
Leggggggo11@reddit (OP)
Well maybe I start with the TBM haha! I was just cursory looking at range and the PC12 appeared to be far better.
But greatly appreciate the feedback and that I’m not crazy!
CluelessPilot1971@reddit
You should absolutely consider having one or two mentor pilot/CFIs in your area you could call on and have them accompany you on trips - if you're uncomfortable, if you're fatigued, if you're out of currency/proficiency, whatever.
Make sure you know what a Mooney feels like from the inside, it's a bit of a tight space. If you like it, great, otherwise, Cirri are remarkably comfortable, and Diamonds are really fun planes to fly.
Leggggggo11@reddit (OP)
You arent the onlynperson to mention this and the more I think about it the more I like it.
appenz@reddit
Yeah, Mooney and Cirrus are very, very different planes. Fly both and probably you will know immediately which one you want.
TBM vs PC-12 are very different as well. PC-12 is much, much larger. You can put in 8 people & two motorcycles and still have lots of range. TBM is comfortable for 4 people max. It is slightly faster though.
D-Dubya@reddit
Business owner, pilot, and owner here. The time savings in travel is immense. What would be a 3 day trip with two hotel nights is now a single day trip out and back. My plane is in the shop right now and I flew commercial for a trip. It's awful...
Leggggggo11@reddit (OP)
Thank you! This was part of my logic basis, so glad someone has realized it in actual application. I know it wont save time every trip but Im looking at the overall aggregate on the year and a few hours here and there make a world of difference.
Chago04@reddit
What plane do you own? As someone where that is the end goal, it’s nice to see it makes sense for some people.
D-Dubya@reddit
I had a Bonanza for six years and bought a Baron last fall. I fly it all over the eastern half of the US.
ltcterry@reddit
Do several VFR cross country flights before you start IFR training. You've spent a ton of time sitting next to an instructor who either told you what to do or you wonder if you were doing what he/she thought you should.
Before you spend 40 intense hours sitting next to a CFII, give yourself some time to grow as a pilot. Get the confidence and competence that can only come from being in charge. And that's not the case when a CFI or other pilot is next to you.
Clearly you are successful in your business or you wouldn't be visualizing what you've got planned. Be smart about this.
My thoughts:
Time to spare? Go by air. - What you are proposing is fraught with risk of "gethomeitis." In both directions. You'll still need to allow time. "Don't want to let the customer(s) down..."
The insurance company is not going to like your low time and the Mooney. Time in type will help. I'd suggest you get the airplane and use it for your IFR training. Just keep the flights dual only so your insurance is at the instructor's rate and not yours! You'll have 40-50 hours in type by the time you pass the checkride. Then add yourself to the insurance.
While working on your instrument rating, you can use your airplane and the instructor to fly to your work locations. Just be sure to pay the CFII a fair rate for the entire time and cover lunch. CFIs need XC time. And money. It's your airplane, so no risk of "illegal charter." This is the most realistic type of training there is.
I did AMEL add on training in a Seminole for a Private Pilot this summer. He's upgrading from a 182 to a Baron. The insurance company wants 50 hours dual in type before he can fly without a "seeing eye CFI." A TBM or PC12 at 400 hours is going to be an insurance nightmare. If you consider going this route, think about putting it on a Part 135 certificate. And use one of the professional pilots to fly with you. Or if beyond your weather skills just "charter your own airplane." Charter can offset some of the costs of ownership and provide access to trained pilots.
I knew a guy who lived in Augusta, GA, and had clients in Macon, GA. It's 93NM airport to airport. Or a three-hour drive. The guy flew in a 172. Then a 182. Then a Seneca. Then a King Air. He eventually realized the faster airplanes were not really shortening the time on this short trip, but were dramatically increasing the cost of commuting. Somewhere along the line he bought an FBO. And died. Sad.
Leggggggo11@reddit (OP)
Fair. Ty!
Just a question, would doing VFR long XC during the week for work, then IFR training on weekends be the general same as doing them before starting IFR?
As for timing. I have zero things pulling me to the job site or home (single, no dependent) so while I don’t know cause I haven’t done it, I don’t think Id risk safety to make it somewhere. Hell, i refuse to run in an airport when delayed flying commercial. If i make it I make it. If I don’t, i catch the next flight.
mustang__1@reddit
Time to spare, go by air.
That said, my dad flew the balls off a 201 and Mooney Rocket back in the 80's/90's flying for business. There are a few stories he told me that he A) probably shouldn't have told me and B) shouldn't have done.... all related to get-there-itis (usually home).
Certainly a TBM/PC12 gives a lot more options than a mooney, though. I have no experience in a turbine, but my gut says 400hrs probably isn't enough... but nothing says you can't have a CPL with you to mentor. Insurance will probably be an absolute kick to the testicles.
Anyway, live the dream...
Leggggggo11@reddit (OP)
Ty!
TheRauk@reddit
Flew about 200hr one year for work. It was a fun bucket list thing. I decided though after a 10hr day jumping and doing IFR at night wasn’t fun.
Back to Exec Plat on AA, the seats are comfortable and the drinks are better.
Leggggggo11@reddit (OP)
Agree! Luckily my days would be more like flying 2-4 hours to the site, walking it for an hour, then flying back.
ParachuteRiver@reddit
I’ve always dreamed of doing this myself. Been talking with a friend of mine who has done it, they said the major drawback was how exhausted they were at the end of the day of work and how they often didn’t feel like they could do a one or two hour flight solo when so exhausted. Makes sense. I’d say it would be your job to ensure that at the end of each day you feel like you’re in great shape for flying. If you’re in that kind of work that drains you by 5 PM every day, you want to be really careful about the flights you take. Weather has already been mentioned, but same thing
TheRauk@reddit
Your “job” is to be someplace at 0800 the next morning.
vectors-to-final@reddit
Plenty of owner/operators out there using their airplane for business. I would strongly recomend that you find a CFI that can be your company pilot and aircraft manager. Obviously adds safety, but also lets you log time in a plane you might not be ready for and it's really valuable when you fly for business to have someone giving a more impartial go/no-go decision.
Plus it is really addictive to land and just hop in the car and head to your meeting - no putting covers on the plane, making sure it's fueled, etc. Even better is, when it's time to leave, you give your guy/gal a heads up and you show up, hop into a preflighted/fueled/cleaned plane with a clearance in-hand and just go. You'll build a ton of hours and learn volumes.
Obviously more cost to the business (maybe another hotel room and car, plus their salary, etc) but easily worth it.
Leggggggo11@reddit (OP)
Yea the CFI comments have been a good point for consideration! My current one is in dire need of time as he just started. The flight school owner who i was working with asked if Id be ok with him to help get his student back log going. Now he gets to say he took a student pilot from his first flight with me to soloing in 4 flights!
changgerz@reddit
TBM/PC12 might be a bit slow to go all the way across the country (you probably knew that) but will definitely increase your range. Insurance on one of those is going to be very pricey though.
Leggggggo11@reddit (OP)
Yea, that part of the plan isnt fully considered / researched. Just included for conversation sake and appreciate the feedback everyone is giving!
JT-Av8or@reddit
You’re on the right track. Definitely don’t skip on the training though, especially if you’re planning on heavy metal like a PC-12. Flying XC for work is a great way to take back your time from the TSA. A lot of my friends do it, though most of them go Multi and get something like a Baron which is a lot safer for work. You’ll be wanting to fly over mountains, in bad weather, over swamps and such so a single piston, while perfectly safe (I flew my Grumman Cheetah for 12 years without a hitch), isn’t the smartest thing to do. The PC is fine though, that engine is bulletproof. Definitely keep going, it’ll be the best decision you ever make, but hire some young CFI to go along with you for a while. You’ll appreciate the second pilot in hard IMC.
Leggggggo11@reddit (OP)
Hadn’t thought about the CFI as just a ride along pax. I guess if I have my PPL I still get PIC time build unlike in training currently.
In Va if you travel to, and get their stamp, to every FBO in the state they will send you a custom bomber jacket. My CFI has one airport up in the mountains he hasnt gotten yet and I offered for him to just ride along while i did a XC solo there to build my time and even if he doesnt do anything during the flight I cant get solo time.
Necessary_Topic_1656@reddit
I did something like that after I got my private pilot certificate - flew to and landed at every single public use airport in the state of …. Rhode Island…. Did it in one day even…. lol
JT-Av8or@reddit
My wife wants to do this someday.
BigFatAbacus@reddit
Tbh this is my end goal.
My own career (in accounting and finance)
And to fly myself using GA aircraft/airfields to engagements that are non remote.
Tbh I'll rather pay the £135 per hour to fly between remote airfields than pay £75 full stop to fly commercial.
DiggyTroll@reddit
If you’re fortunate enough to afford it, enjoy! My boss started flying during the golden age of GA and funded his 410 twin through his business.
While tax advantages have diminished for the used market, he continues to enjoy flying a paid-off airplane in his retirement.
Leggggggo11@reddit (OP)
Yes Ive worked very hard to be where I’m at and am eternally grateful to my clients. At 42, the life position I’m in is not lost on me.
midava@reddit
I’m using a plane for business. My advice is to find an aviation tax specialist when you buy to make sure you’re in compliance with the tax code and can realize the full benefits of tax deductions. (I use ATC) I think you’ll find you’ll need 500 hours before you’ll be able to get reasonable insurance on a turbo prop but I could be wrong.
Leggggggo11@reddit (OP)
Very helpful! Ty!
walleyednj@reddit
If the numbers work out, that’s great. Obviously, speak with your accountant concerning expenses. One thing to keep in mind, even with an IR, there will be weather you won’t want to fly in that a 121 carrier won’t even blink at.
Leggggggo11@reddit (OP)
100%! Yes Im not assuming this is a magic bullet to business travel. Comes with its own unique set of challenges vs challenges of flying commercial (which i dont think ill ever fully get away from).
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Been following this sub for a bit as Im getting close to my check ride (likely mid December).
After that jumping directly into IFR training.
Unlike most here though Im not pursuing a career as a pilot but also just not flying casually / personally. I own my own company now and take somewhere between 150-200 segments on Delta every year across the lower 48. A few friends are commercial cargo pilots or personal GA and got me hooked. Ran the numbers and while it’s not a huge ROI, it looks like I will save money by being able to fly myself to my job sites. Not from a savings on the actual flying but more time, as I wont have to fly in day before and fly out day after due to schedule constraints. Saves on hotel and other associated costs. Also get the expense and depreciation on the accounting side as a fringe benefit.
Anyone here in the same boat? Feel like this is a huge minority of the aviation world.
My next steps are likely buying an IFR M20J in Jan/Feb, keep that from current hours (likely 60 once I take my check ride) to about 400 hours. Mainly use it East of the Mississippi where I can get to places in a couple of hours / fly in & out same day and stick to Delta for anything longer. Then at 400 hours upgrade to a TBM or PC12 turbo prop so i can get cross country (based in RIC).
Just looking for thoughts / guidance / hard lessons learned on my plan from others who may be in this type of aviation world.
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