Honda jet crashed Mesa AZ

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FlydirectMoxie@reddit

Not going to speculate, however, out of every jet I’ve been rated in over the past 50 years, none challenged me more than the Honda Jet. This airplane demands 1000% concentration. God Bless the victims and their loved ones.

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willflyforboatmoney@reddit

In general, what is it about the Hondajet that makes it so challenging?

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FlydirectMoxie@reddit

Pretty much everything. It’s a bear in a crosswind due to the giant sails/pylons, an electronic nose wheel steering system which is super sensitive, horrible antiskid design, no rubber contact with the runway, no ability to drop a wing (at all) in a crosswind landing, you’ll drag a wingtip or flap.. to name a few.

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type_E@reddit

sails

Man I thought the overwing engine mounting sounded cool

Welp

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FlydirectMoxie@reddit

Makes for a quieter cabin.. not much for handling.

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Prestigious-Ad4042@reddit (OP)

The departure end of the runway is nothing but dry compacted dirt my best guess is in the heat of the moment he put the toe brakes to the floor and locked up the tires and on that dry dirt the anti skid kicked on and the brakes released and he never let off the toe brakes enough to put the anti skid back into standby mode

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Silent_Chef155@reddit

I built Honda jets from 2015 to 2018. I worked in the "production flight test" section. We had unending problems with nose wheel steering and anti-skid. Honda flatly refused to make changes based on experiences that their employees brought from other manufacturers. Honda will insist on learning everything the hard way.

That whole aircraft was unique and interesting, but I'd never want to fly on one. That factory was terrifying.

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Prestigious-Ad4042@reddit (OP)

Does the brakes locking up scenario sound like a viable possibility obviously not the reason for the RTO but after?

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Independent-Mood-153@reddit

can someone help me understand how brakes locking up during takeoff may've caused the issue? i know the family and this is what i have heard so far as being the cause

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FlydirectMoxie@reddit

It could be a combination of factors. The nose wheel steering system is electronic and twitchy, and unlike anything most pilots are familiar with. I’d best describe it as it lags input.. not sure why the engineers felt it necessary. Directional control takes getting used to. Add a crosswind to the equation, it needs to be countered with aileron straight away, or you’ll really be chasing it. Factor in a high speed abort (always an iffy outcome) and with inadequate brakes, little or no rubber contact (the Goldwing has more tire contact) and nothing but a speed brake (no reverse) makes it a challenge.

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ab0ngcd@reddit

Are modern day aircraft anti-lock brakes smarter than car antilock brakes from 30 years ago? Do they sense the slowdown rate and not just the differential between the left and right brakes? I have seen on ice where the brakes locked up at the same time such that the antilock system didn’t sense one slowing down before the other and hence not activating the system to prevent lockup.

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FlydirectMoxie@reddit

On the last Boeing I flew, the airplane always did a remarkable job at stopping, especially in slippery conditions. The systems manuals given today don’t say much about the nuts and bolts design like they did in the 727 days. On the 777, the antiskid (if in normal brake system) looked at individual wheels, and most likely compared with inertial speed. In the alternate braking mode it compared same side wheels. The performance honestly wasn’t any different than trying to get stopped before your driveway in the snow, pedal feedback is very similar.

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FlydirectMoxie@reddit

I can’t really speak to that, but in my experience, modern antiskid systems work beautifully when the rubber (the more the better) is in contact with the runway.

The heaviest aircraft I’ve flown (B777-300) has a max landing weight of well over a half million pounds. I’ve landed that airplane in snow, ice, and rain and each and every time I got stopped without much fanfare, much like almost sailing past your driveway in fresh snow. You can feel the pulse of the brakes feeding back in your feet, seems to me at about the same rate as an auto. The HondaJet was something way different in terms of the modulating of the brake valves (much slower cycles) and as I mentioned above, there’s not much rubber contact.

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Prestigious-Ad4042@reddit (OP)

Not sure what lead to the decision to abort the take off but my best guess from from looking at the ADSB points it looks like they decided to abort the takeoff at about 130 knots. 130 in the Honda jet is relatively rotation speed. A takeoff aborted at that speed on as short of a runway as 22L is at falcon is never gonna be great. It also looks like they would’ve been close to max gross take off weight with 5 people and I’d assume close to full fuel. The speed and weight combined with that short of a runway and the fact the Honda jets only braking systems are a small speed brake and the hydraulic disc brakes, there’s not a lot of braking power available. The Honda jet from what I’ve learned so far also has a relatively crappy anti skid system as well. The anti skid system functions with sensors that automatically sense the wheels locking up and release the brakes to prevent further skidding. The only way to prevent that from continuing would be for the pilot to let off the brakes, or for the sensors to detect that the tires aren’t skidding anymore. Essentially what I assume happened is when the pilot realized they needed to abort he inputed full brake pressure and as the plane skidded off the runway it hit a lot of dry hard dirt and the lack of friction from asphalt to dirt caused the plane to skid more eventually leading to the pilot to press on the brakes harder and in turn activating the anti skid system which then released the brakes essentially leaving them with no braking power to stop.

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SensitiveAd5694@reddit

130 is about 15 knots past rotation speed (VR) and about 20 knots past abort decision speed (V1). 130 is well about a safe abort speed and you're taught to take off and work a problem in the air. Very sad outcome. For reference I have over 400 hours in this type.

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SFXBTPD@reddit

What is the typical landing speed and distance?

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sdannenberg3@reddit

A classmate of mine works at Falcon field. He said the plane did come off the ground. He thinks something happened to the engine as they were taking off based on sounds he heard, not an aborted takeoff. I am not clear weather he physically witnessed it or just heard the crash...

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pdesmet@reddit

Spot on! If you got 130 knt I don't think there's anyway to stop ona 5100' runway.

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Silent_Chef155@reddit

My gut says it is totally plausible. I'd need more details to say for sure.

Like I said, it was a cool plane full of neat ideas. I always felt the whole aircraft was about 80% of what was advertised. I learned a lot about acquiring production and type certificates while I was there. The whole process put a bad taste in my mouth. I've been working in aviation for 19 years and I grow more afraid to fly every day.

Who would have thought? Experienced aircraft mechanic is afraid to fly.

Nobody wants to know how the sausage is made. That's why.

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Yussso@reddit

I swear that this subreddit is one of the subreddit that's filled with the most competent people. Every difficult topics are always answered by people that have flown or worked on the plane for 30 years, or 10k hours, or design the fcking plane.

As someone that's not working in the Industry it's always exciting to read.

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Prof_Sillycybin@reddit

2015-2020 quality in Assembly for me, first thing I did was look to see of this was one of the aircraft I did the End-Of-Line inspection on.

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GottaSaveThat4Skin@reddit

I worked in flight test too during that time. i remember them dragging the plane back when the antiskid failed at GSO and how much they tried to keep it quiet.

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Silent_Chef155@reddit

We had that one slide off the runway in Chicago in 2016 too. The second time the Japanese lost the battle of Midway...

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FlydirectMoxie@reddit

My first landing in this airplane was on a damp runway, wind negligible. When I say damp, I mean hardly wet. The antiskid started cycling with moderate braking.. very long cycle between releases, like long skids with periods of deceleration that were far from adequate. If you fly this airplane like a Cessna 195 you’ll be good. Honda Jet owners deserve better.

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Argiveajax1@reddit

My dad owned one and I flew on it many times. My dad was a pilot but he was too scared to fly the honda jet even after doing the type rating.

I'm not sure who was in this crash or if it was my dads jet (he sold it). I sure hope it wasnt the young pilot that used to fly us.

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dinkleberrysurprise@reddit

Appreciate the candid comment.

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HengaHox@reddit

That’s insane design. Haven’t dig in to it but surely that’s not the norm?

Automotive engineers figured out anti lock brakes decades ago.

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Guysmiley777@reddit

Compare the contact patch of the wheels of an Accord versus the wheels of a HondaJet. The antiskid/antilock system in an aircraft isn't directly comparable to that of an automotive application.

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HengaHox@reddit

I mean it isn’t that hard. Trucks have it (semi’s too). Motorbikes have it. Wildly different contact patches. That is not a factor.

They are tuned for the application. It’s utterly ridiculous that they can’t figure it out on a freaking private jet 😂

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Guysmiley777@reddit

That is not a factor.

Agree to disagree.

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Prestigious-Ad4042@reddit (OP)

I’m not a Honda jet pilot but after reading through the brake system section of the POH that’s what I took away from it

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HengaHox@reddit

Dang

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pdesmet@reddit

I have a Hondjet Type rating and 1100 hours. Only jet i've flow. I flew with a number of retired airline captains that said the plane was the most dangerous they've flown. It can be flow safely but it does take very proficient pilots that fully understand limitations. Not a plane an owner operator should fly unless they have previous jet time and take proficiency seriously. The wing is very low to the ground - 10 degree bank on landing will cause a wing strike. Large tail with small ailerons. Hard 20 knot cross wind limit on take off or landing. Ailerons won't overcome more than that. Nose wheel steering is "VERY" sensitive...easy to over control. No reversers so brakes only to stop. Little jet that needs big runways if wet or runway contamination. I learned that diverting and saying NO was key to safety. Other than that really fun plan to fly!!!

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FlydirectMoxie@reddit

Agree with everything, except I don’t think the airplane is dangerous. Maybe more like a dumb design with a lot of flaws that demand respect.

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Alternate947@reddit

Narrow wheel track, wing is close to the ground, iffy braking system are all things I’ve heard but I don’t fly it.

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FlydirectMoxie@reddit

Most operators were using 15 knots, less if it’s wet. You do not want to attempt a landing on a runway with any level of moisture unless it’s at least 5000’.

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pdesmet@reddit

more like 6000 or 7000'

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FlydirectMoxie@reddit

Ungrooved. 🙂

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mjw60@reddit

That it got that fast and didn’t appear to rotate could it have been a control lock not removed? I’m not familiar with the Honda jet so not sure how “easy” it is to leave them locked in place.

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BreakfastNo1569@reddit

Almost impossible to miss removing it .

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BreakfastNo1569@reddit

Almost impossible

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Prestigious-Ad4042@reddit (OP)

I’m sure the NTSB will be looking into that along with a primary flight control failure

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LinkIGuess-real@reddit

I was there. I saw the fire, it happened during my discovery flight's pre check until someone I was with said, "Hey, uh, (flight instructor), that plane just crashed.." We were hoping they would keep the north runway open, but they didn't. Super sorry for the families of the people killed.

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cardboardbox25@reddit

I wasn't actually there but I take flight lessons at falcon, very sad

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cardboardbox25@reddit

Yeesh, thats where I fly from

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itchygentleman@reddit

Is this the first hull loss and fatality hondajet incident?

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Worried_Still8934@reddit

Four hull losses inc. this one and this has the first fatalities. Total of 30 accident/incident of the type to date.

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pdesmet@reddit

only 250 hondjets so that seems pretty high!

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xampl9@reddit

How does this compare to other small jet fleets?

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Alternate947@reddit

Pretty sure there’s been at least one other hull loss. N14QB at HOU. Wing separation and gear collapse.

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phumanchu@reddit

VasAviation

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keyToOpen@reddit

This video can be used in training to remind controllers to not assume a plane that just took off made it off the ground safely. Took tower more than a second to realize there was a plane crashed off their runway right after dept.

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Eeebs-HI@reddit

He didn't even see that smoke plume.

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SafeForWorkAcc0unt@reddit

4 deceased, 1 victim still alive

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FreeDig1758@reddit

How the fuck is someone still alive in that

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Starlettohara23@reddit

Sadly, I just happened to be at the burn center tonight where the survivor is being treated, with my child who was getting burn treatment. The family and friends there are so distraught, it broke my heart and definitely puts things into perspective.

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Street_Entrance6600@reddit

Please, if this is true, tell me who you saw still alive? I had two cousins on that jet tonight.

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Starlettohara23@reddit

I sent you a DM.

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Argiveajax1@reddit

who was the pilot?

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Spare_Suit_8268@reddit

This was my relative flying the jet . His son is the only survivor

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Street_Entrance6600@reddit

Please, if this is true, tell me who you saw still alive? I had two cousins on that jet tonight.

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Prestigious-Ad4042@reddit (OP)

Where did you see that?

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SafeForWorkAcc0unt@reddit

Citizen app, and police scanner

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SafeForWorkAcc0unt@reddit

citizen app

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BudgetOffice@reddit

Really sad. I live in one of the homes in the orange groves closets to the crash site and love watching the planes take off. Usually between 3pm to 6pm is when the jet aircraft depart (or Pilatus PC12) for regional charter destinations. The weather was really mild this afternoon. It can get a little gusty around 4pm on the N.E side of the airpark but today was mild and cool. I've seen Honda jets flown out of here on dozens of occasions and in weather.

I was looking to try and find a tail number but it wasn't logged on Flightradar 24 as a pre-scheduled flight.

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