I had totally forgotten about this book and it came up in my feed today

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lawstandaloan@reddit

It's kind of been forgotten for a reason, unfortunately.

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How are we to view artistic works that are found to have been created by people that have done something wrong? On one end you have JK Rowling and on the other you have people like Bradley, R.Kelly and (depending on your stance) Michael Jackson. Can the art stand separate from the artist?

I’m not advocating one position or the other, as it’s one I haven’t figured out for myself.

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Kissing13@reddit

Since Marion Zimmer Bradley and her husband are dead and buried, I don't see why it should matter. The book isn't in the public domain yet; wouldn't her progeny get any royalties from her work? I read it long ago, so I can't say for sure, but I don't recall it having sexual abuse of children. I seem to recall some incestuous bits, but I don't think the book promoted that behavior.

I'm not sure I understand why you would lump J.K. Rowling in with child molesters. Has speaking out for fairness in women's sports really become such a contemptuous thing?

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ogfuzzball@reddit

I didn’t lump JK in with molesters.

I said on one end of the spectrum you have JK (who has made statements that deeply trouble some people and now people won’t read her work) and then you have others like MJ, who again has molestation allegations and some will avoid playing/buying his music.

Point is the same. Regardless of the “wrong” that has (or perceived to have) occurred. How does (or should) it be connected-to or separated-from the art?

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spinningcolours@reddit

You can add David Eddings, Arthur C. Clarke, and most recently, Alice Munro to your list.

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Arenvan@reddit

Son of a bitch, I shouldn't have looked up Eddings. I loved the Belgariad and the Mallorean growing up.

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Martiantripod@reddit

I got over Eddings when I started reading the Elenium. It seemed like the same characters (yet again) but this time with new names and a different setting. One trick pony.

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luvslilah@reddit

I'm reading them now for the 30th time. Tbh, I would prefer to remain ignorant. I love, love that series.

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mish_munasiba@reddit

David Eddings?!?! Whyyyyyyy?

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JaBe68@reddit

Neil Gaiman?

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BlueMoon5k@reddit

Dammit Neil! WTF were you thinking? I want to kick him in the butt just once.

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spinningcolours@reddit

Oh yes, so many on the list now.

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legumex3@reddit

Arthur C. Clarke?

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spinningcolours@reddit

https://www.patreon.com/posts/yes-arthur-c-was-30298650

I found out about this because a friend's Sri Lankan husband told me that he was warned about that house when he was a child in Sri Lanka. Quote: "cheap little boys." Pure anecdata from me, but I'll believe the person who lived there.

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sassypants450@reddit

As I was reading this question and your comments about it, I thought to myself “oh no this is going to be a hot angry mess in the replies,” but then I realized we were on the GenX sub and sure enough, everyone is calm and thoughtful. Love it here. :)

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izolablue@reddit

I often think along those same lines, it’s a relief.

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RiffRandellsBF@reddit

I remember when everyone was pissed off at Harlan Ellison for just being an unapologetic asshole who sued James Cameron. Dude was a saint compared to Bradley and other disgusting POS writers.

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linuxgeekmama@reddit

Does it matter if the artist is dead or alive? JK Rowling benefits if you buy Harry Potter books or merch. Marion Zimmer Bradley does not.

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Blurghblagh@reddit

JK Rowling is so rich I don't think she benefits in any real way if you buy her book, play a HP game or watch the upcoming series. The crew on regular wages and background cast and stunt people trying to earn enough to keep their SAG health insurance on the other hand would benefit, as do the people making the t-shirts and other merch. A lot of ordinary people also make a living off the success of something as big as the Potter franchise. I think the artist responsible should be shunned, not lauded with awards or interviews and attention, but the art itself and the others depending on it are blameless and should be enjoyed.

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Blurghblagh@reddit

For me they are completely separate unless the artists behaviour has influenced the art somehow, as in they were living out some sick fantasy or mocking victims through their writing or painting etc. I don't tend to notice who an author, show runner or director is a lot of the time or pay attention to that stuff unless something really stands out so maybe it is easier for me to take that view than someone who was affected by something similar such as child abuse in this case.

I am against boycott campaigns or attempts to cancel projects. For the recent Harry Potter game or Ender's Game film a few years ago for example, they have already gotten their money when they sold the rights, all a boycott is doing is threatening the jobs of innocent people who work in publishing houses, printers, cast and crew on film sets or game studios. The people who need these the most are the ones who suffer.

In this case I would hope any money from sales of the books would go to her children.

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WhiteApple3066@reddit

I am with you. I generally can separate the artist and the art but I very much think about the crimes (or alleged crimes) and I do not purchase anything by said artist once things are revealed.

Mists of Avalon was a great story, I truly enjoyed it, it’s a shame the author is such a piece of shit.

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New-Arachnid-9265@reddit

I struggle with this over Kevin Spacey movies. Brilliant actor, shit human.

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ThisSpaceIntLftBlnk@reddit

YES.

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40angst@reddit

I don’t find that part difficult at all. I can’t stand him as an actor.

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copyrighther@reddit

I struggle with this too. With a book, the author is responsible for every single word on the page.

With a movie or TV show, there are hundreds of people involved to help bring it to life. I know people who worked on House of Cards, and while I understand why some people would shun it, it just sucks to see so many people’s hard work get tossed aside.

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40angst@reddit

I agree with the art standing separate from the artist. I can admire the story and the writing while perhaps disliking the person behind it. some people can’t maintain this degree of separatism.

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lawstandaloan@reddit

Piracy and used bookstores is about the only answer I've come to. I definitely don't like to give certain people any of my money

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Kenbishi@reddit

I’m the case of MZB’s stuff, I think I read that proceeds from sales of her stuff now go to organizations that help victims of trafficking or some such. I’ll see if I can find the article again.

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Sufficient-Lab-5769@reddit

Also, libraries.

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Binky-Answer896@reddit

I’m an opera fan, especially Wagner, and I always have this same predicament. How this loathsome little man, whose “philosophy” helped grease the wheels for Hitler, wrote such beautiful and transformative music will always be a mystery to me. What we call “dog whistles” now are so clear, yet I still love the music. At least he’s long dead and his works have passed into public domain, so no one’s making money.

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ErnestBatchelder@reddit

Soooo, I have come around on this question. Some of my most beloved authors and musicians historically were loud and proud antisemites. Like "the Nazis were correct" types. I'm Jewish. And... I don't care. If anything, it kinda makes me laugh & feel a bit subversive that someone who hated my people can't stop me from their grave from deriving pleasure in their collective works. Roald Dahl comes to mind. He was proud of his opinions and never hid it. I love his books. Not going to stop enjoying them.

This helped me forge a larger process based on more current allegations and outings that have been happening for the past 5-7 years.

I... don't care.

Were they a monster in this life? Should their creative endeavor not have come to light and given them a wider platform to shield them from monstrous behavior? Are there artists who are more deserving and they took that person's place? I guess. Maybe. But if their work is already in the public sphere and I either enjoyed it in the past or am interested in what they've created, yeah. I am going to partake.

Maybe their work transcends them as fallible shitty humans. Maybe that was the one redeemable quality or aspect of them. Life's too short for me to purity test everyone.

Now there are some exceptions I guess. I think child molestation is that exception. Also, as much as I loved Marion Bradley in High School I don't think that book seems like it's that fantastic and there are a lot of other fantasy writers to choose from. But if I had deeply loved the book and saw it in a used book store? Maybe.

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kritycat@reddit

I worked (for a plaintiff) on the lawsuit against MZB and her husband Walter Breen. If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them to the best of my ability without breaching any attorney-client confidentiality

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TVDinner360@reddit

Thank you for your work. What she and her husband did was beyond vile. My heart breaks for those kids they victimized.

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kritycat@reddit

They did. They were vile.

She used her celebrity to befriend single women with vulnerable children within Walter's age preference. She procured children for him to abuse.

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DynastyZealot@reddit

Is she as despicable as everything paints her to be?

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MUPIL090310@reddit

Omg maybe we need an AMA!!!

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kritycat@reddit

and this will be how my ex husband finds me LOL

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airbrushedvan@reddit

Glad I read it before I found out all of this. Truly vile shit. Artists and their art can be so very different it's disturbing

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TheLastMongo@reddit

Same. It’s like I enjoy the work and then find out about the author later. I still want to enjoy the work but it’s harder, especially when I really enjoy it and as a big reader of Arthurian legend, this was a new take.

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mypreciousssssssss@reddit

Try Mary Stewart's Merlin series, starting with The Crystal Cave.

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Taira_Mai@reddit

I read that as "Martha Stewart's Merlin series" - you owe me a coke.

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Sing_O_Muse@reddit

Yes, read this. I even named a kid after a character in this series.

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Techchick_Somewhere@reddit

Oh this was my favourite series as a kid!!!

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TheLastMongo@reddit

Another great read.

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MyFriendHasMaladies@reddit

Have you read Jack Whyte's Camulod series? It's been a long time since I read it but I remember finding it interesting as Arthurian legends go.

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TheLastMongo@reddit

Loved that one. I liked how they started a couple generations back and built the world up.

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MyFriendHasMaladies@reddit

Yes! That's why I liked it too. I made the mistake of loaning the complete set to someone in my family who "forgot" they were mine and donated them when they moved. Thankfully when I'm ready to re-read them my local library has them.

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KetoLurkerHereAgain@reddit

Right? She was an utter monster and I even actually threw out all my copies when I found out. Even a rare pocket paperbook size.

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odd-42@reddit

Sounds like she and Piers Anthony would get along well.

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Hamiltoncorgi@reddit

Piers Anthony? What did he do?

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feliksthekat@reddit

PA didn’t do anything. His books could get pretty weird, but as far as I know in real life he was a pretty decent guy. What people are talking about regarding MZB isn’t some invest flavored fiction. She was a child sexual abuser.

I’m no piers Anthony Superman, but I don’t think it’s fair to equate them.

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odd-42@reddit

Good lord- the pedophilia in his novels. Fury’s was Firefly. I know there were others but good lord…. It is on Wikipedia- blech

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Apprehensive_Use1906@reddit

Well that’s depressing. I’m wondering if I should check on Lawrence Watt Evans?

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jackparadise1@reddit

Oh.

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Icy_Independent7944@reddit

Holy fucking shit. I had no idea.

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Browncoat_Loyalist@reddit

Holy shit. Well, now I don't have to be cranky my bitch of a mother in law trashed it and I never got a new copy.

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ChrisRiley_42@reddit

Her and Eddings are authors I no longer recommend because of their history.

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citrus_sugar@reddit

For real, I can’t talk about it now and really sad about this.

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sillylilly04@reddit

That was my fastest “Oh yeah!” to “Oh no!” ever.

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immersemeinnature@reddit

I literally threw my copy in the garbage bin when I found out. So awful 😞

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Mysterious-Being5043@reddit

Damn. I loved this book, horrible to find out about the author. I guess it goes in the same pile as my Harry Potter books.

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tarestab@reddit

I saw the post and was like so who's gonna tell em?

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TheVoicesOfBrian@reddit

She's been dead for 25 years. Picking up her work won't be "supporting" her anymore.

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Celedhros@reddit

Yeah, I feel the same way about Orson Scott Card, and used to be a big fan of his work. Thankfully no abuse (that we know of) but I find some of his expressed views to be problematic.

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NerdyNina221B@reddit

Ah man, I just found my copy recently and was going to start rereading it. I had no idea the author was such a piece of shit.... I think I'll read one of my other books instead

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BroccoliStrong8256@reddit

Dale Dobek

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MyFriendHasMaladies@reddit

Yeah, loved it and finding out about MZB and cohorts sucked. Got rid of all my MZB and Diana Paxson books.
Finding out the books I took solace in were written by people doing similar vile harm to children that I needed to find solace from was an additional disturbing mind f**k.

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kallisteaux@reddit

Do I dare ask what Diana Paxson did?

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MyFriendHasMaladies@reddit

If I remember correctly and I have no desire to go fact check myself right now-
She made some abuser apologist statements and may have had abuse allegations leveled at her as well.

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Sorchochka@reddit

No, she didn’t. She said she had no idea and vehemently disavowed MZB.

It’s Mercedes Lackey who’s been milquetoast as hell on this.

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MyFriendHasMaladies@reddit

Yeah, it's messed up all around.
Just like Susun Weed's claims about being a "fierce" teacher about her abuse of people who have tried to learn from her about plants- what it comes down to for me is there is enough appearance of problematic violation of morals and values that are meaningful to me that I don't want anything of theirs in my space, and I don't want to support any of their work with my choices. There are other teachers of eating the weeds and there are other authors who write fantasy and sci-fi stories I enjoy.

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TVDinner360@reddit

I seriously thought about getting a tattoo when I was in my early twenties that was inspired by the book. Jesus gods, am I glad I didn’t.

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missisabelarcher@reddit

I loved this book ages ago but I can’t read it after finding out about MZB. I think the nature of her and her husband’s crimes are too heinous and depraved to allow for any kind of critical distance for me. And they also echo in some moments in the text in a way that feels really horrible, knowing what we know now.

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Kailicat@reddit

Same. The hardback I read a million times and travelled around the world with me just sits on the shelf. I won't read it, I can't read it, as many of the plot points are just illuminating the fact she was a monster. I can't bring myself to throw it away though, having been through so much with it. So it just lives there as an example that monsters exist.

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missisabelarcher@reddit

Yes, some of the plot points are just…beyond questionable now. And even some of the descriptive, almost “throwaway” details that were there for world-building — now they read way differently, like trying to normalize CSA that MZB clearly enabled and did herself.

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dodgylibrarian@reddit

Problematic author but damn good books.

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ArlenForestWalker@reddit

The only book I’ve ever actually thrown in the trash.

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Gungadem-1776@reddit

I loved it. I would read while listening to Souxie and the Banshees

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Martiantripod@reddit

I remember when this was doing the rounds among my gamer friends. The women really loved it. The men usually thought it was meh.

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Dry-Drink-9297@reddit

I didn’t know that about her, it’s quite disgusting… aren’t there any 80’s idols that didn’t do something awful? Mel Gibson - later discovered he’s a crap person MZB - a child abuser, OMG Bill Cosby - yuck, well

Come ooon, at least one of them has to be salvable!

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mckenner1122@reddit

I remember watching Tom Hanks on “Bosom Buddies”. I never really understood most of the plot, but I liked his curly hair and I liked to sing along to the Billy Joel theme song.

Tom is still ok.

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Rude-Consideration64@reddit

It was everywhere, but seriously - it wasn't that good. Nor was Rowling's. We should have known.

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MightyMightySD@reddit

Author abused and allowed children to be abused. Serious POS.

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ContessaChaos@reddit

Read Bernard Cornwell's Warlord Chronicles. It's an Arthurian trilogy that filled my heart after the MBZ horror. Just don't watch the show. It is utter dog shit.

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Candid_Albatross_271@reddit

Incredible book!!!!

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Titania_F@reddit

Ugh I never knew that about MZB! I loved this book 😣 just horrendous.

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wholeselfin@reddit

I just happened upon this series last year, and passed many commuter hours listening to the audiobooks. I’m sick to read of the autgor’s history. It was such a creative and sympathetic take on the Arthurian legends.

The voice actress who read the audiobooks, Davina Porter, is as engaging as the texts—I would listen to anything she narrates. I’m now listening to her reading of the Outlander series.

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MrMilesRides@reddit

Well. I still have this (same) copy and was intending to get to it soon...

Judging by some of the comments, I'm not sure if I want to find out more or not :/

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bigblackkittie@reddit

i loved it

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adlittle@reddit

Good book, but if there's a hell, the author is in it.

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beanolc@reddit

Oh yeah! My grandfather gave me a copy to read when I was in high school.

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Flyingarrow68@reddit

I’m so glad I read this when I did! What’s wrong with it? wtf?

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kritycat@reddit

MZB facilitated her husband's rape and molestation of children, and herself seems to have been a child abuser.

I worked (for the Plaintiff's side) on a lawsuit against them on behalf of a child they had harmed.

If anyone has questions about that case, I'd be happy to answer to best of my ability without breaching any attorney/client privilege.

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JulesSherlock@reddit

I know the publisher’s portion of royalties from this book goes to charity but does the author portion go to her estate? Or who gets that money. I know her daughter doesn’t get the money.

I bought the audiobook before I knew about her past, then I found out her history and it made me nauseous.

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silvergiltsky@reddit

One person who gets estate money is Elisabeth Waters, Bradley's secretary, lover and co-conspirator in all the offenses. She has stated that Bradley's husband was accused but not convicted even though it's common knowledge he died in prison after the conviction. She's told other ridiculous, easily disprovable lies to maintain her income stream through the estate and prevent abuse victims from winning lawsuits. She may still maintain Bradley's, and the husband's, total innocence.

I get everything that might cause her to g we t money from pirate sites.

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JulesSherlock@reddit

Ugh, how awful. So anyone that buys this book is still supporting awful, evil people. I sure wish this book would die out and I’d never see it again!! I left the worst review I could on Audible. Thanks for the info.

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thatzmine@reddit

One of the greatest books of all time. In my top 3.

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40angst@reddit

I literally just read it again a few months ago. It’s been on my bookshelf for I don’t know how many years.

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JFK2MD@reddit

I've often thought about reading this. Any good?

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Wren572@reddit

I thought it was great and worth the read.

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silvergiltsky@reddit

I thought it was.

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CK1277@reddit (OP)

I don’t remember to be honest.

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Vlophoto@reddit

Best book ever imo

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AddendumAwkward5886@reddit

I love this book , have read it soo many times.

Just found out about MZB maybe 6 weeks ago? And holy what the everloving fuck? That threw me for the biggest loop. Ugh.

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Ksauce-@reddit

Dang, I loved that book and am just now finding out about all of this 😢

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SkipInExile@reddit

Good book👍

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Ksauce-@reddit

I love that book and the rest in the series!

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dth1717@reddit

Bought this.. a looong time ago for an airplane flight. Started reading it and the stupid book was misbound. It started at page 1again at page 50 something....

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8496469@reddit

Funny last couple days I've been thinking of a rewatch. Then I see this.

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Easy_Ambassador7877@reddit

I read all of those books and now that I know what the author did, it’s all ruined! And the sad thing is I read the books after she died, but I didn’t have internet access at the time and just found them at the library.

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ruka_k_wiremu@reddit

Heroic-fantasy was introduced unusually to me during my first full-time job, a bureaucratic office job...so maybe not so unusual. David Gemmel's 'Legend' series was binged hard

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PMMeYourTurkeys@reddit

I remember being grossed out by the incest themes in the book. Now that I know Bradley's history of CSA, I am even more disgusted.

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Midnight_Kitchen@reddit

Also the older female characters rationalising marrying off their young teenage daughters.

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thatgenxguy78666@reddit

Never have I heard of. And to be honest I do judge books by the cover and this looks like a bad romance novel.

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Strangewhine88@reddit

It was very popular among some English Majors and their instructors in the 80’s.

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Strangewhine88@reddit

Loved this and Mary Stewart’s The Crystal Cave’ series.

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Willowtreehugger6@reddit

Reminds me of Step Brothers. “I will follow you into the mists of Avalon”

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MarkItZeroDonnie@reddit

Didn’t Brendan offer to ride through the Mists of Avalon with Dale .

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Anenhotep@reddit

A good one!

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eejm@reddit

My college roommate loved this book.

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SquirrelEnthusiast@reddit

That was me hi

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Apprehensive_Gap1055@reddit

My sister carried this book in her door. In case there was some catastrophe, she'd have a book she enjoyed to read. Skip forward 30 odd years, my sister's car is broken into and the only thing stolen was this book.

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Fit_Caramel_9599@reddit

It came up on mine yeaterday, too

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Inside_Ad_7162@reddit

I had that book as a kid, can't remember if I read it or just liked the cover but I had it for years

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CautiousConch789@reddit

Just makes me think of the movie Step Brothers, TBH.

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Self-Comprehensive@reddit

Read that book as a young adult and adored it. Found a copy at half price books a few years ago and left it out on my nightstand to read. Came across a thread about MZB on Reddit a few days later. I put the book out of sight...I should probably just throw it out at this point.

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llclift@reddit

I loved this book and read it several times. I was a huge Arthurian fan and I loved the female centric vision and the struggle between the opposing world views. I read her other books and the Darkover series. After the reveal of MZB, I couldn't read them again.

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