Are German cars really the "moneypits" people make them out to be?
Posted by EvilDarkCow@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 1030 comments
I know the answer is, "it depends", but I'm hoping for a bit more nuance.
I've been saving my ass off all year to replace my car. My current Ford has problems that are not only reliability issues, but safety issues, it needs thousands of dollars in work, and it's simply not worth fixing to me, as much as I hate having a car payment. Believe you me, I'd fix it all if I knew I'd be able to get a few more years out of it. But I've complained about it on Reddit before so I'll spare you all that.
I want something reliable but also comfortable and fun. Despite their reliability, I'm thoroughly unimpressed with Toyota's interiors and driving experience, especially with the markups on those. And coming from 3 Fords, and multiple GMs and Chryslers in the family, American cars are out. So what about German cars?
And everyone I ask about it; family, coworkers, randos on Reddit, they all say the same thing: "Do not buy a German car, they're all moneypits." BMW, Merc, Audi, to even the most basic VW's, all they do is break and bleed your wallet dry, they say. "Lease only", "don't buy used", "sell when the warranty's up/at 100k", "everyone who buys one has more money than sense", etc.
Of course, most of the people I hear say this have never owned one. Now I know it's no secret German cars are typically more expensive to maintain and repair, and they really don't have tolerance for neglect, but everything I've read seems to say modern BMW/Mini and Audi/VWs are quite reliable if you keep up with maintenance, usually followed by someone else saying they totally self-destruct at 100k.
Of course, no matter what I buy, I'll be looking into a good extended warranty for it. I know just enough about cars to get myself in trouble. I'll leave any wrenching more complicated than spark plugs or batteries to the experts.
Is there any merit to these claims? Or are they absolutely right, and I'll be signing myself up for getting it up the ass on an installment plan by buying a 3-4 year old German car with the intention of owning it forever?
Salt_Proposal_742@reddit
Yes.
fliguana@reddit
When your Ford starts having problems, you call a mechanic and schedule repairs for next week.
When your mercaudibmwagen starts having issues, you call a tow and a taxi.
Milam1996@reddit
Yes but no.
German cars are luxury vehicles and the designers make them as such. They make the engines/engine bay in a way that gives better performance, layout etc but means that you’ll need to take the engine out to change a thermostat. They’re also designed with the expectation that you’ll follow the service plan exactly and you’ll only use premium fuels and oils.
Finance plans have made German vehicles seem less and less of a luxury. I remember the days were if someone owned a Mercedes they were considered very posh/rich but now an 18 year old can get one for 700 quid a month on PCP.
Adept-Usual357@reddit
I love my g42 b58
breacher74@reddit
A sucker is born every minute go ahead buy a vehicle where the parts are all across the pond.
skibidibapd@reddit
My friend just paid over 10k to carvana to get rid of his 2017 x5. It dropped so much in value at the 5 year mark he was that far underwater. He also was looming at 2 years and 10k worth of maintenance coming up his bmw mechanic told him. 60,000 miles only.
SnooChipmunks2079@reddit
I had less trouble with my 08 GTI over 70,000 miles than my wife did with her 07 Camry over 120,000.
I was pretty obsessive about the maintenance schedule. She was not.
Make whatever conclusion you think appropriate.
Real_Illustrator3810@reddit
They are designed to be serviced at the dealership as they make it hard to work on yourself due to the placement of parts. I used to work for Jack Daniel's Motors, so I do know what I am talking about. Also, usually, after around 70,000 miles, the prices really start to depreciate, and electrical problems start to arise. You're better off getting a nice Japanese car, which is designed right.
bradman53@reddit
Other than the annual maintained - my 2016 Mercedes diesel suv has not cost me a dime (outside new ties at 70k)
My wife has a 2020 Mercedes car - nothing but maintenance on that car either
Our experience is they are great
Albine2@reddit
Mercedes and BMW their solid cars but they are over engineered and thus expensive to fix. If you've buying a new one get the warranty, if you are getting a used one just understand maintenance is expensive
Dude_lookslikalady@reddit
German cars take more maintenance, but drive better and are faster then their counterparts.
wargeneral1122@reddit
Well...you are unimpressed by the Toyota....did you ever bother thinking or looking at a Honda? Or even a Mazda?
Maca1233@reddit
I had a VW Passat with the 1.8t. Been perfectly reliable. Bought it with 6k and it’s about 129k now. Have only done standard maintenance. Gave it to my kid. He thought he had a starter issue or something worse recently, tuned out to just be a battery. Given it was the original 7 year old battery it was to be expected. We’ve kept up on oil changes, trans flushes, plugs,etc and have had no issues. Brakes on it aren’t much more expensive ham other cars and I do them myself. This is my only experience with a German car but have heard others with horror stories. I have a Subaru Outback with over 100k that also has ha no issues, but has been more expensive to maintain.
retro_dabble@reddit
Yes
sneedhopper321@reddit
Most of them, yes.
Dervishdec@reddit
(TLDR at bottom) People buy nicer, sportier used German cars like Audi's or what have you that have been rode hard, put away wet, and maintained at the very basic level. There is arguments on both sides, as people have had different experiences with their vehicles. You correctly stated that some people will say they are ticking time bombs, or indestructible tanks. My own experience has led me to believe that while a pain in the ass to work on, if done properly and treated well, Volkswagen and Audi cars are very reliable and have never let me down.
My dad has driven Audis for at least the over 20 years I've been alive, and most likely since his 240Z rusted out in the early 90s. His dad drove Audis before him. Between the two of them together, they have:
- Survived at least 4 catastrophic, potentially life altering accidents without a scratch or with very minor injuries
- Had approximately 0 cars "give up and die" on them or otherwise total out the value on constant repairs
- Been stranded on the side of the road exactly 0 times due to maintenance issue with car
Now that being said - My dad and Grand dad take EXCEPTIONAL care of their vehicles. My dad (and his dad before him) changes the oil every 5,000 miles, himself, in the driveway, with high quality oil. So he can insure the quality of the oil change, components used, and uses the time to conduct his own vehicle inspection, top off other fluids, other basic miantenance like tire rotation/inflation/spare check. My dad and grand dad both did all of their own car maintenance (self taught, my dad learned from his dad, and I learned from my dad and also a bit of the Youtube University). My dad, Grandad, and myself all strictly follow every bit of maintenance recomendation you can find for the car. If it's a recomended service, they did it exactly on time or sometimes a bit early. Dad and grandpa warmed up their cars in the morning, didn't idle them all day for anything, didn't dog the car on the highway or driving or wherever, and generally drove and treated the car well, even taking care of the inside immaculately. Driving German cars is a choose your own adventure book, and they respond in kind to how you treat them, as silly as it sounds.
TLDR: People who have had negative experiences tend to buy used cars that were poorly treated and maintained, then are shocked when they detonate at 100K or 150K miles. I've bought both used and new Volkswagens/Audis and had nothing but excellent experiences because I take great care of my cars, keep up with maintenance, and treat the car well. Passat has 325K miles on it, runs perfect. Jetta 2.5L 5 speed manual runs perfect, 250K miles. Jetta, 5 speed Manual TDI, runs perfect, 275K miles. Probably doesn't get driven enough but otherwise fine. The experience is what you make of it.
secondrat@reddit
Yes, it depends.
An AMG Mercedes or BMW M series is going to cost a ton to keep on the road.
But there are plenty of German cars that are reasonably reliable and not hard to work on.
Before you buy anything you should check out the forums and look for a common issue list.
Like on most BMWs their cooling systems contain a lot of plastic, and it’s a general rule that every 80k miles you replace the water pump and other major coolant parts.
Take a look at Dashboard Light for reliability stats.
I find that the more basic models have fewer things to break, and tend to be more reliable.
Like the Mercedes V6 and V8 engines they put in many cars from 2000-2010 are super reliable. They built millions of them and quickly worked out any bugs. We had a 2004 e320 wagon that we sold with 190k miles and it still ran great. The 2010 ML350 we replaced it with has also been relatively trouble free for 5 years and 40k miles. It now has 170k miles on it.
The Car Wizard on YouTube has some good videos on which models to look at. Consumer Reports will also point out better and worse models.
But you definitely need to stay on top of maintenance and little problems before they become big problems.
grauemaus@reddit
Except every 2006-2008 MB 3.5 liter V6 that had the balance shaft issue.
Technical_Broccoli_9@reddit
German cars are for leasing or owning under warranty, or for people who don't know better.
the_smokist@reddit
I take a lot of road trips and I tell ya, I've seen a lot of brand new looking bmw and Mercedes broken down on the highway.
No-Significance-8622@reddit
They are mostly very well made and have superior performance to American made cars,, but they cost a fortune to service/maintain and insurance is more expensive. You would be better off with a high end Japanese or Korean car.
CommunicationTop5231@reddit
German car designers expect you to be anal about maintenance. Do that and you’re probably going to be fine. Don’t and you’re fucked. And stay away from Audi’s in any case. I have about 25 years of history with BMW’s and VW’s both personally and in my family. My brother and mom both daily M3’s. My brother is an excellent mechanic and very responsible/proactive. His E36 M3 is like showroom quality, despite all the miles. My mom’s much newer M3 has suffered from my father’s “the fucking dealership wants x amount of money but I can surely fix x problem that we’ve been putting off forever if I watch some YouTube’s”… Spoiler alert: he can’t, and would save so much goddamn money just handing it over to the pros whenever he so much as dreams of an issue.
Appropriate_Bar7933@reddit
I have owned 3 BMW, 2 new and 1 with 110,000 miles when purchased. I am now on my MB number 6, a 2023 AMG. The other 5 purchased new or low mileage still under warranty.
The BMW were about average as to failures, but expensive to repair due to the extremely predatory OEM parts pricing.
The Benzes were virtually trouble free and replacement parts a third of similar BMW items.
I also found BMW dealers arrogant and I always used Indy’s when warranties expired. Mercedes dealers always treated me as if they valued my business, even when driving lowest priced models.
Bottom line, unless still under warranty or a CPO, find a good German car shop for service and you’ll save at least half. German cars can be very satisfying to own and drive, but none can approach the reliability and low cost ownership of Asian vehicles.
paper_thin_hymn@reddit
I've owned numerous German cars and I still say "it depends." If you aren't handy and can do some wrenching yourself, I wouldn't own a German car out of warranty if I were in your shoes.
PayWest2613@reddit
Yes
Sudden-Advisor8406@reddit
Mercedes is, terrible reliability, just shoving tech in. BMW scores much better. VW uses cheap parts that break.
Over_Helicopter3293@reddit
I recently purchased a mercedez e350 coupe, and although the maintenance B to be exact was very expensive (as quoted by dealership) specialty shop in my area that only works on bmw, audi, benz quoted me 1/3 the price including time and labor. I have been a lifelong toyota fan but wanted something "nicer" and this car drives amazingly well, my old toyota with the same driving comes no where close of this feel of driving.
iforgotalltgedetails@reddit
Sir, on German cars. Unless you’ve got a semi-extensive tool set already. Those jobs DO go to the experts.
KingLeoric01@reddit
my base model VW golf would disagree.
just fine doing basic things by yourself, and spark plugs don't require a degree in automotive mechanics.
Hover4effect@reddit
Interesting, I've done a ton of work on mine with standard tools. Wheel bearings, suspension, brakes, exhaust, oil changes, coilpacks and plugs, starter thermostat, etc.
This is on 3 VWs and an Audi over the past 16 years.
Ok-Hurry-4761@reddit
Yes. Fuck the battery is hard to replace on mine.
rockdude625@reddit
On the Mercedes ML class, the carpet has to come out to get to it under the passenger seat
PilWetty@reddit
Spark plugs are a three-four hours’ labor job on some Audis
TLDRing247@reddit
I can attest. It took me 3 hours on my 2016 Audi A6 with the 3.0T. Mostly getting the back drivers side that's buried under the coolant reservoir. Saw a YouTube video that saved me draining coolant and removing the reservoir which would have added 1-1.5 hours.
PilWetty@reddit
Yep, I used to be a tech at an independent VW/Audi shop
Ok-Past9232@reddit
Depends on the car. For example, spark plugs on my A4 are fine. I replaced the spark plugs and ignition coils (granted, you remove ignition coils before spark plugs anyways) in about 30 mins. Socket set with a few extensions makes it really easy. A torque wrench is also a really good idea for spark plugs. But if you’re buying all of these tools just to do spark plugs and battery, it may not be worth it.
Battery is a little annoying. Mine takes an AGM, I recently changed it out at 80k miles (original battery from 2016, no issues just for peace of mind), but it needs coding to tell the car the type of battery, and the capacity of the battery. Im guessing that’s for smart management of the SOC as the battery ages.
iforgotalltgedetails@reddit
I’m well aware it varies by car. I’m more trying to kick the idea out of his head that those jobs are simple across every make and model.
Fargraven2@reddit
Not really. I have a basic tool set that fits in my trunk and I’ve done a lot of extensive/niche jobs on my Volkswagen with it
FKpasswords@reddit
My 2003 530i e39 has been a great car. I service it myself and I’ll keep it forever….no reason to get rid of it. Everything requires service…..
Lance_Notstrong@reddit
The answer really depends on previous ownership. But also usually the lack of understanding how German’s automobile ownership is quite different than how Americans view ownership.
Germans, very generally speaking, tend to be maintenance forward in their design philosophy, I.e. replace it when recommended whether it needs it or not, not because it’s not broken. If you get a German car that’s been maintained like that it will most likely last hundreds of thousands of miles. One could argue “well if you maintain any car that way, it will last a long time.” And that response right there lies your answer of how and why cars will either be money pits or not. Most used car money pits are because they weren’t maintained well by the original owner….most especially German ones because you’re maintaining outside of the way it was engineered to be maintained.
ISayMemeWrong@reddit
Yes. But, with a comparison to an average reliable car, with average parts pricing, and average labor pricing, also yes
NicotineWillis@reddit
Owned multiple Audis and BMWs over the years, never had issues. Porsche 911 for seven years, no issues. Currently on a Skoda Superb that I’ve run from 40 to 310k, again no issues. The cars were always serviced properly and on time. Probably cost a bit more than Jap cars, but Euros are much nicer to drive and be inside. No regrets.
mr-mcsavageface@reddit
Massively reductive answer, kind of.
I've owned 3 VWs, 2 Audis.
If you follow the maintenance schedule, you're most likely fine, most of the time. If you don't, it can get absurdly expensive when things start to break. Many German automobiles (particularly from mid-range and up) have lots of interesting tech and engineering under the hood. With that comes precise and mandatory maintenance requirements.
Look after it, and it will look after you. Most of the time. Freak failures happen no matter who's badge is on the grille.
Just be prepared for the costs. I swear German cars are designed to be as inconvenient as possible to work on, leading to some potentially pretty insane labor costs.
jedig1984@reddit
This isn't a hard and fast rule, but sometimes the older the German car the better. If you're handy, have some tools, and wanted a W124 era Benz, you can do a lot that doesn't require a lift. Just shell out for parts and the occasional special tool, or any major repair best left to an expert (fuel injection work, trans rebuild, etc). DIY scene on older German cars is robust and friendly and the cars are fuckin classy af, literally classic. Anything 3-4 years old just looks like it's an off-lease used car
Nighthawk132@reddit
As a Benz guy, be careful of old 80-90s benzes with the KE-Jetronic. It is a very finicky and precise system that many Indy’s and even dealers will struggle to fix.
I found in my experience cars with higher miles seem to have less issues with the system. But low mile cars? Yikes…
jedig1984@reddit
My experience is limited, but these days with a good multimeter and the internet, you can get a decent understanding of symptoms, causes, and fixes. I'm a carburetor guy with an engineering degree (astro) and the first time I learned about all the KEJ shit it was hilarious. It's a "Swiss watch" approach with just enough robustness... But damn those engines are so smooth when everything is tip top. Even my 300TE - idle is a bit low, doesn't like to start, ok fine - but it pulls like a little freight train and will do 90mph all day long with zero vibration and weirdness
Anyway if you find a good indy shop that will listen to your concerns and look at your garage diagnosis, it can be a great relationship
Nighthawk132@reddit
Oh yeah for sure! My family has a few of these 80-90s benzes. My brothers w124 from 1987 he runs that thing at 90mph for hours with 400k miles on the clock. She just keeps on chugging along. Could use a new head gasket though!
I’ve got a rebuilt 1991 190e. Had 50k miles when I bought it. New head gasket at 60k. At 85k now and is so so smooth. Drives better than me e550 2014. It’s insane what German engineers did in the 90s.
vjefhsb@reddit
I agree. A lot of the older designs were much simpler and more robust. People like to shit on german cars for being “complicated to fix”. Ive only ever rly worked on old bmw’s and theyre always soooooo much easier to work on than most of the japanese cars ive touched. Everything is right there, with enough clearance. And only some cases where u have to remove some stuff to get to the actual thing you need to fix.
jfisk101@reddit
I just don't see anyone posting in this sub wanting to buy a classic like that. I certainly would, but my dad had two W126 diesels when I was growing up.
jedig1984@reddit
I suppose OP's question was pretty specific
But maybe they'll see the light
toclosetoTV@reddit
I right now am driving a mk5 gti woth 247,000 miles on it. I am not the first owner and I think it drive nice and the motor seems to be in good shape. I don't know how many owner it had I just know when I got it, it had no power steering, the radio doesn't work, the head liner is falling, the rear hatch opens when it wants too with plenty of more things. But all in all I like the car and it seems fairly easy to work on. Well what I am getting at is yes they are money pits. But by far the coolest car I have owned.
ConstructionRare4123@reddit
Not if you take care of them like any car
AshlandPone@reddit
Mine hasn't been.
Well... No, but yes. I would describe german cars as maintenance queens.
I do strictly adhere to my maintenance schedule and only use the best parts and oils. It has never broken, and i task it to the max. It does delivery duty, and tows trailers long distance. I ask mine for everything it can give me, and i give it everything it asks for. And that seems to work fine.
My oil change? $70 if i do it myself, $125 if i pay a lube shop, $150 at the dealer. It requires synthetic oil, and gets it... but i only need to change it every 15,000 km.
It wants an air filter every 30k km and gets it.
It wants brand new iridium tip spark plugs every 45k km, and gets them.
It wants 91 octane and never gets anything less.
It has never been anything but absolutely reliable. But i have never ever pushed a service, or skimped on parts or oils or fuel.
Germans design everything to very exact specifications. If you can adhere to the maintenance schedule and stay within design limits, there are no surprises. For the most part.
That is my anecdotal response. Your mileage may vary.
Berek2501@reddit
That was my Volkswagen experience for several years. It wasn't that any single repair or maintenance event was crazy expensive in and of itself (as long as you DIY the work), it's that they were a constant need and each one was a pain in the dick.
Like you, mine had to have full synthetic 0W-40 oil and premium gas. The oil wasn't bad since I changed my own. The gas wasn't bad for me personally because I spent most of my time driving in town.
Spark plugs and ignition coils every 30k miles, as long as you splurge on the iridium plugs and bougie ignition coils or else you'll get cylinder misfires after 10k.
Timing belt and water pump every 50k miles, and so help you God you'd better have the correct tools or you're going to turn that motor into a boat anchor.
Had to use the special VW formulated coolant that's $75 for the concentrate, and if you don't do a flush every 30k miles you're fucked.
And then like clockwork, every two months something would go wrong. A $5 sensor that takes a whole weekend of stripping the front end to reach. Heater hoses would blow at least once every winter, and because they require a special quick-connect the set was like $200 (because of course you can only buy the set, not the one hose that shat the bed). Odds and ends that are only accessible if you had a third arm and 12 elbows.
Archenemy627@reddit
All the brittle plastic cooling/vacuum hoses always made me laugh on VWs. Working near them and an eyelash falls on one and it busts.
Berek2501@reddit
OH GOD I HAD FORGOTTEN ABOUT THE VACUUM LINES!!! JESUS H. TAPDANCING CHRIST THOSE VACUUM LINES
850khaos@reddit
Timing belt and water pump every 50K miles ?!?!? HAHAHAH WHAT THE FUCK
Berek2501@reddit
The OEM water pump was a bullshit cheapo pump with brittle plastic impellers that start chipping off after too many heat cycles, so you had to stay on it.
Alternatively, you could get a fuck-ass expensive aftermarket pump with metal impellers for fuck-you-money, and then it's every 75k miles because of the belt. But you still have to do the pump when you do that because even though the impellers are better, the pump pulley is still Chinesium bullshit.
Hover4effect@reddit
Did all mine at 90k intervals, and they only put the metal impeller in.
Disastrous-Group3390@reddit
And ‘shadetree’ mechanics, who will fix you Toyota, Honda, Ford or Chevy for a case of beer and $100, won’t touch your Vdub. So you get to see Carlos or Luis or Vlad who will touch it, for three times as much, in three months when he gets caught up.
Hover4effect@reddit
My friend has worked on my audi and VWs for cases of beer. He is definitely a Ford guy and has never owned or liked German cars.
Saved me thousands.
mmikke@reddit
I had a woman ask me to take a look at her Tesla....
Lady, that isn't a "car" so much as it is just a giant battery powered computer. Sorry. I have zero to offer you!
Your comment is so spot on
SaH_Zhree@reddit
Out of curiosity what year and model and location?
I have a Mk6 golf 2.5, and it's been amazing.
Oil every 5k Sparkplugs every 45k, changed ignition coils at 130k Clutch at 120k Oil filter housing at 130k Original thermostat (now at 140k) Original water pump (now at 140k) Original injectors Valve cover at 135k Original timing chain
And that's it so far, still runs like a top, everything not listed original from 15 years ago. The rest of the body is showing its age though. 87 it's whole life too.
Coolant was available at my dealers for 20$/gallon of concentrate too, FCP was even cheaper at times.
cbass1980@reddit
I used to joke that my mk7 ran on a steady diet of premium fuel and $20 bills. Maintenance is key.
Berek2501@reddit
Don't laugh but it was a Mk4 Beetle 1.8T, APH engine code, driven and maintained in Tennessee.
All the aspects that made it a Beetle were whatev. I personally liked the greenhouse, the huge doors, and the general silliness.
Mechanically, it was the same as any other Mk4 1.8t. APH was also used in TT of the same era.
Surprisingly, the clutch was one of the few things that never went bad on me. When I sold it with 250k miles, the clutch was still original and still plenty grabby.
I will say I never had any catastrophic failures, just lots of constant little things that you had to stay on top of.
When I bought it, a dear late friend of mine gave me a warning I'll never forget:
Uviol_@reddit
Which VW was this?
smallchainringmasher@reddit
Oh so far away from my 1989 VW Golf GL (mexico), finally kicked the bucket at around 300k miles. Interior still looked great, the valve train failed.
Jimbenas@reddit
I'd argue 90% of issues from bad ownership on german cars is long oil intervals or people ripping on the car when it hasn't fully warmed up. There are also just weird occurrences too that are costly.
HandleMore1730@reddit
In fairness unlike many Japanese cars, the long service intervals means literally litres of additional oil for the same size capacity engine. I have to say there's quite a bit of thought in the design of these cars. There is often method to the madness.
What you cannot argue is the higher parts costs or the ever increasing use of complicated and often brittle plastic components. Service wise they can be a bit of a nightmare to work on, with complicated procedures and tool requirements.
Jimbenas@reddit
20 oil changes are still much cheaper than a whole engine. If you buy the 5L bottles it really isn’t that expensive.
HandleMore1730@reddit
I'm not disagreeing. I change the oil in my sports car every 6 months, even though the OEM states 12 months.
I can see people that rely on mechanics to change the oil might complain about the cost, but for DIY, oil changes are very cheap.
Jimbenas@reddit
Not DIYing oil gets expensive. I can see why people don’t do it, but I really can’t justify an extra 70-80 bucks every time my car needs new oil and a filter. I do know a lot of people who rely on places to change their oil and they do so very infrequently as well so I think you’re on to something.
AshlandPone@reddit
That's another thing i do. Warm up and cool down my car properly. It's a german turbo, gotta be careful with it!
kartoffel_engr@reddit
My BMW motorcycle is exactly this way. You take care of them, they take care of you.
Like anything, if you don’t want to afford the maintenance, you can’t afford the vehicle.
gorogergo@reddit
Exactly. I've had a k1600 for ten years. I follow the maintenance schedule and I've never had a problem except a fuel pump under recall, iirc, and a deer strike, lol. And this thing has had multiple 1000 mile days. I've also had a 996 era 911 and now I drive an F30 BMW. Same thing you take care of them and they take care of you. Most of my work is in my driveway and I always buy whatever laptop interface I need.
kartoffel_engr@reddit
My dad has a 996 that is immaculate. Spent a lot of time and money getting everything back to showroom. If you abuse it, the cost comes all at once. Staying on top of things is definitely the least expensive route or at least spreads it out in a reasonable time frame.
1234-for-me@reddit
Exactly! Follow the schedule exactly or be early. We have 5 vws in the driveway: 04 jetta (272k), 05 beetle (172k), 13 beetle (127k), 14 passat (144k) and 19 atlas (102k). They get 5k oil changes (about $50, i change it myself with mobil 1 full synthetic) and filters every 20k. The jetta had the alternator, ac compressor and serpentine belt tensioner all fail 3 years ago, they were original to the car at 18 years/250k.
cheapdad@reddit
This gives me hope for my 2019 Golf Sportwagen, which I bought new and has about 82K miles now. (The brief window when VW offered a 6-year/72K warranty was my opportunity to take a chance on a euro car.)
I've kept up with all the recommended maintenance by asking my independent mechanic to do it all. And so far the only unexpected repair has been a blown center brake light LED strip.
Over these 82,000 miles, my VW has been maybe the second-least expensive car to operate that I've ever had. Fingers crossed it stays that way.
1234-for-me@reddit
The 13 and 14 have needed 3 wheel speed sensors between them in the last year and a couple of emissions sensors (they’re both diesels). I had to replace the oil filter housing on the passat but it’s known issue.
wrd83@reddit
I'm surprised at the 91. I was expecting mostly 95+.
munchies777@reddit
It’s because 91 in the US is equivalent to the lowest octane gas commonly found in Europe for road use. The US uses the average of RON and MON while Europe only considers RON. The numbers look higher in Europe for the same gas because RON considers how the gas will behave in lab conditions while MON considers how the gas will behave in real world conditions. My US BMW calls for 91 gas in the manual.
wrd83@reddit
Thanks! Didn't know
Re99i3@reddit
I am in UK and run my car on 99 ron only. Can't believe you have 91 ron. Wow!
Electrical_Media_367@reddit
US octane ratings are calculated differently than Europe. 93 or 94 is the best you can get at a typical station. Regular is 87 or sometimes as low as 85 at higher elevations.
MiloRoast@reddit
My friend is absolutely obsessive about doing the exact specified maintenance on his cars, and his mid-2010's GTI has had like a dozen issues since he bought it new...and that's supposed to be one of the more "reliable" German cars. Two new thermostats, three new water pumps, and two new radiators, plus a slew of other minor things (all covered under warranty)...all with obsessive regular maintenance.
So yeah, ymmv.
AshlandPone@reddit
And i've never had a bad hyundai or chrysler while others have never had a good one. YMMV.
MiloRoast@reddit
With Hyundai it very much depends on the year/model. They made a ton of changes in 2018, and are significantly more reliable now. Chrysler though? I don't know what to tell you lol...you should go buy a lottery ticket.
AshlandPone@reddit
I don't disagree. It's why i caveat my anecdotes. You wouldn't want me in one of those Top Gear cheap car challenges. You'd be losijg to something you hate, and hating it even more because if you'd chosen it, it would have consumed your knuckles, eyebrows, and self worth.
MiloRoast@reddit
I like the cut of your jib
KitchenPalentologist@reddit
I have a 2018 VW GTI, I put 87 octane in it, I've done oil changes at the dealer when the service light comes on, and I've had one brake flush done, probably 10k miles after recommended. I just replaced the spark plugs myself on schedule. I replace the cabin air filter myself. I haven't had the diff fluid exchanged yet, it's overdue, that'll happen at the next oil change, and isn't that expensive.
This car has had zero issues. It runs the same as the day I bought it new.
TheWeetcher@reddit
I've owned a VW, a BMW, and currently an Audi and this has been my experience with all 3 of them. They are expensive, but not unattainable if you can afford to perform maintenance to the specifications of the manufacturer.
If you skimp on maintenance repairs will absolutely break your bank.
B5_S4@reddit
My man, if you made all those kms into miles you'd be at the proper service intervals. You're way over-doing things lol. Iridium spark plugs are supposed to last 100k miles, though mine started having issues at 75k.
throwawayasfarucan@reddit
Just look up how to replace the headlight on a Porsche and you will understand where the term Money Pit comes from.
ProfessionalTea7831@reddit
I’ve driven a VW GTI for 16 years with no major issues, routine maintenance.
yupyupyup426@reddit
If your tolerance for warning lights is low. Yes. If you can ignore the sensors that are attached to everything that exists and take care of basic engine maintenance, they're fine.
Darkslayer_@reddit
They are usually complicated and have expensive parts. They're also designed with the expectation that the owner follows the service schedule. So when the average BMW owner buys the car, they don't want to do the maintenance it needs because it seems expensive. Eventually, they'll dump the car onto someone else with a 15 thousand dollar repair bill. That's the usual German car life cycle.
It isn't helped by the fact that some, like Audis, are built in ways that triple the cost to fix them.
Replacing the thermostat on an average car is maybe an hour of labor, but on some audis (I forget which ones) you have to disembowel the entire front end and pay thousands.
NoMansSkyWasAlright@reddit
I remember my dad had a mid-00’s Passat for a long time and working on it was just a constant stream of me saying “why tf would they build it like this?”
SLOspeed@reddit
My BMW has surprisingly affordable parts. Some components are cheaper than previous American cars.
47-30-23N_122-0-22W@reddit
Honestly Mercedes tend to take the abuse. I have a buddy who drives a c300 like a Honda civic. It's run down and been through a few high speed collisions with deer and it still runs great.
s19746@reddit
This.
dcgregoryaphone@reddit
Some of the parts like brakes are also expensive because they have higher standards for brakes than other countries. But yeah, generally, when you buy a German luxury car, you're expected to follow the service schedule, and the cost of maintenance isn't their highest priority.
InfiniteBlink@reddit
Mmyeaa. I replaced my Brakes and rotors on my M2 Competition and it was 3500 for parts/labor. I have an X6M and will need to do the same and the cost will be slightly more. From what I've been told, with the M cars, you don't just swap the brake pads, it's full rotors/pads.
I bought my first BMW (318ic) when I was 21 and could barely afford the car payment and insurance, I let that car go to shit. I then went to Toyotas (FJ, Tundra) a lot cheaper for maintenance but not the BMW experience. At 43 I bought my M2C and X6M, I knew I'd be paying a premium to maintain the cars. All maintenance work done on schedule, if something broke, fixed it with OEM parts. I love driving my cars and can afford the maintenance costs. I also own them both outright so I don't have crazy loan payments some folks are paying.
railworx@reddit
"The BMW experience" .....of getting r*ped in the ass for every part & oil change?
obviouslybait@reddit
oil change wasn't bad but parts f*cked me
PoppysWorkshop@reddit
BMW = Bring My Wallet
RedRatedRat@reddit
OP should call his local BMW dealer and find out what a tuneup costs for the car he likes.
It only goes up from there.
Unhappy_Ad_227@reddit
The first mistake is calling a bmw dealership for service. Plenty of excellent enthusiast owned shops that will do better work at half the cost.
RedRatedRat@reddit
How much value will your BMW lose if you can’t show that it was serviced at a BMW dealer?
Unhappy_Ad_227@reddit
$0
R-K-Tekt@reddit
No, the drive and quality. I love Toyota as much as the next guy but BMWs are just nicer cars to drive. I own a Z4 and 3 series and I haven’t had this much fun driving a car since I first got my license. You’re in a subreddit for people who like cars, some dudes are willing to pay more to drive a car they enjoy even if it’s more expensive. Some other people aren’t willing to spend that, who cares. People should just enjoy what they enjoy.
Elliot4004@reddit
If you need a ‘car payment’ you can’t afford the car
anon_dox@reddit
Drive a BRZ/FRS/GT86... Can't go back..only car I found that you can have fun on without actively trying to kill yourself.. and it comes stock like that on Prius tires. People ruin that car by modifications.
imagen_leap@reddit
I drive an M2 and came from an ‘18 subaru STI. I loved the subi, but the BMW is simply a better car in nearly every regard. For a premium driving experience you’ll pay a higher maintenance cost, that’s simply life. But if you stay on top of your maintenance the car will work almost regardless of how hard you beat on it, if you aren’t good at keeping up with maintenance don’t get a German car. Japanese cars can be neglected maintenance wise and still work and not develop problems, but if you beat on them, they will break.
railworx@reddit
Have you looked under the hood??? So much plastic!!! Such great German engineering!!/s
imagen_leap@reddit
It’s common in all cars now, but yeah, one of my very few gripes is the amount of plastic, and the lack of an oil dipstick and no visible coolant reservoir. It had become routine of me to check these on my subi.
RayLikeSunshine@reddit
Camrys are great, so are 340is they are both similar in day to day function, a Camry isn’t going to leave the same smile on a car enthusiasts face after every drive and a 340i isn’t going to leave a smile on the average A to B driver at the shop that a Camry will. If you don’t know how much HP or torque your car has, a BMW feels like a rip off. I’ll also add, there are three types of BMWs. 3 series and below are not really luxury cars. 5 and above are luxury cars, and are far more expensive to maintain. M cars are not luxury cars in the traditional sense but will pay the luxury premium in parts.
utterballsack@reddit
pardon my ignorance, could you have replaced the discs and pads yourself to save 3500? brakes are generally a pretty simple job on most cars but i wouldn't know about modern M cars and the electronic stuff
Isamu29@reddit
If you have the special tool to tell the calipers to open. Or a 1500-5000 dollar scan tool that can tell them to open.
utterballsack@reddit
that's fucking annoying
Isamu29@reddit
Honestly it’s most cars these days with the rear brakes. They all have motorized/pcms that freak out if you push the caliper back in.
Pan_TheCake_Man@reddit
You have to tell M series brake to open, you can’t just use a C clamp or similar?
Isamu29@reddit
I thought it was all bmws these days. If you force them open with a c clamp you can mess them up.
lostpanduh@reddit
Every vehicle is pads and rotors now. Unless your pad slappin it yourself. Ive seen service advisors say no to brake jobs because they just wanted a pad slap.
Pan_TheCake_Man@reddit
Odd, is that because pads have gotten better at not wearing down as quickly? I always thought you get at least twice the life out of a rotor than a pad and I am unsure why that would change on anything other than a performance vehicle like an m series
lostpanduh@reddit
No, its because of weight directly effects fuel wconomy.
Rotors dont get extra meat to lathe off anymore and if you do, youre going to have thickness variation, and warpage.
Then thsre is the issue of no one really has brake layhes anymore. Pad slapping doesnt give the best braking qualities sinxe yhe pads are not mated to the rotors properly. And looots of brake comebacks after lathing with c9mplaints of drove nice for a week but i hit this puddle after riding my brakes like a granny and now my steering wheel shakes when i brake.
Ataru074@reddit
As a BMW guy… $3,500 is outrageous.
I’m not going to tell you to do a brake job by yourself if you don’t know what you are doing and don’t have the proper tools to do it, but the whole set of materials won’t be over $1,000 even if you use pagid brake pads which are usually a league above the textar OEM or equivalent ate.
I used to track my Ms and a full brake job was always less than $1,000, including changing brake fluid at least once a year and 2/3 hours of work in the garage.
There are jobs I wouldn’t do by myself on any car, but there are certainly some that can be much much cheaper if DYI. Brakes is one of them.
HUSTLEDANK@reddit
Ya $3500 for brakes is dumb af
Ataru074@reddit
I mean… if you look at OEM materials you are probably in the $1,500 range. These semi floating rotors aren’t cheap.
I don’t know if you can find Zimmerman rotors for the M2 comp, but they were usually cheaper for the previous Gen M3 and they are damn good.
Same with a decent set of brakes. Ferodo 2500 were a good replacement being usually a little more aggressive than OEM for street use or go full blast with pagid yellow or blue. Just need to be careful if they are cold.
To me is the $2,000 in labor that look ridiculous. $500 per wheel is absurd even at $250/hr
Available-Media-469@reddit
Kinda just lurking this thread and it’s reminding me why I got into motorcycles instead of
Hopelessly_Inept@reddit
Add to this that you can use FCPEuro for their lifetime replacement program and only pay for two sets of consumables for the life of ownership of the car. If you run through brakes because you drive the car hard, it’s a MASSIVE cost savings.
Ataru074@reddit
I don’t remember the frequency of changes except I went through a set every 4/6 weekends on the track. So yeah, seems like a good deal for the user and a bad deal for the business
Hopelessly_Inept@reddit
I go through a set of pads and rotors in about 2-3 track days. Bear in mind, however, that I’m doing competition time trials, so I am likely pushing the car much harder, and therefore much deeper under braking, than most.
Ataru074@reddit
And probably not using endurance pads.
Hopelessly_Inept@reddit
We are switching to XP12/14s this next season, but I’m a little worried about outlap performance.
Ataru074@reddit
At the end of the day it depends also on the tires combo. My endurance pads were able to lock my wheels at 130+ (with a considerable pressure on the pedal) but I was running reasonable 200tw tires.
If I were going full blast on a time attack I would want something more aggressive due to the super sticky tires.
Equivalent-Carry-419@reddit
Change the brake fluid annually? Is that in the manual? I had a 318ti a couple decades ago and I don’t remember doing that.
Ataru074@reddit
I was tracking the car. I changed brake fluid every year, differential and transmission every 6 months.
-C0RV1N-@reddit
He's tracking it. Fluid will break down if you're repeatedly cooking it.
NegativePaint@reddit
Same thing with Audi. You do rotors and pads. On my Q7 it’s a $4k job at the dealer. Or a $2k job at an Indy to do all 4 corners. Or $1,300 for me to do it in my driveway.
bigloser42@reddit
This is the exact reason why I do most of the work on my cars myself. Pads & rotors on my 440i GC are like $700-$800 in parts and an hour or 2 of my time for pads & rotors on all 4 wheels.. If I was only doing pads, it might only be 30 minutes.
InfiniteBlink@reddit
I hear ya, but I'm not a gear head. In comfortable building computers, soldering circuits, designing and 3d printing stuff but cars I feel are scary cuz I'm afraid of I fuck up I could really fuck things up.
bigloser42@reddit
If you can build a computer, you can do brakes. Brakes, as counter intuitive as it may seem, are actually one of the simplest things to do on a car. It's actually really hard to mess it up, and there are tons of instructional videos out there on how to do it. Just having the ability to do brakes & oil changes will save you tons of money.
InfiniteBlink@reddit
Alright, I'll give it a go on the next run. Appreciate the vote of confidence
_RawProductions@reddit
Why do you like the x6 ? It’s just an x5 that I have less headroom in the back of lol
The_Shepherds_2019@reddit
Good taste, sir. I'm a BMW tech, and I can not wait for the G87 to hit peak depreciation in a few years so I can afford one as my midlife crisis car. Stunning looking, fantastic to drive, and still both comfortable and luxurious.
I'm pretty sure the owner of the dealership I worked for picked up a competition as well when they came out.
That thundernight metallic though. 🥰🥰🥰
PoppysWorkshop@reddit
I just replaced brake pads and rotors on the front of my wife's Town and Country. Did it myself with the help of a friend. Cost me $90 in parts for both front wheels, +$50 gift certificate to my friend as a thank you.
I could never do that with my German car I owned for 4 years.
99nine99@reddit
This isn't true anymore. I have Audi q7 and an Audi A6. I bought generic brakes and rotors from a parts store for $100 and brought them to a mechanic to put on.
Dealer quotes me $2000 all in, meanwhile I got them done for $350.
dcgregoryaphone@reddit
Yeah well, I wasn't even going into some insane quote of $2000.. believe it or not $350 is more than you'd spend on an American car.
Sketch2029@reddit
There is no significant difference between $30 rotors and $300 rotors. $300 rotors are not going to help you stop faster. Better pads will help you stop faster, but you can get equivalent pads for any car if you don't care about sticking with OEM parts...which you probably don't if you're buying on rock auto.
If you buy a car with carbon brakes there is a difference, but then you're looking at $3000 (or more) rotors.
dcgregoryaphone@reddit
Slotted rotors and pad wear indicators... I mean, you can say they don't help you stop better, but I'll have to disagree, over the lifespan of the car.
Sketch2029@reddit
True, I've never owned a car with them so I forgot about electronic pad wear indicators. That will add to the cost.
But on street cars slotted rotors exist just to look cool.
dcgregoryaphone@reddit
Brake fade isn't as common on the road as it is in racing, but it does happen. Brakes less likely to fade... are better brakes.
ContributionDapper84@reddit
It happens especially in mountainous areas, tho many vehicles can use engine braking to reduce brake heating
grizzly6191@reddit
Might as well buy nice parts if your mechanic will let you BYOP
FireSprink73@reddit
This seems very suspect. Don't buy cheap China crap parts off of Amazon or Temu. They're knockoffs and unsafe. I don't know any reputable shops which will install carry in parts. They just don't do it for a multitude of reasons. But if you know "a guy" that's a different story. But if you're getting parts and labor for $350, something is getting short changed somewhere
99nine99@reddit
Buy brand name aftermarket and call around.
I put Powerstop pads and rotors on my A6 and had Mavis put them when I got new tires. I don't notice any difference from OEM.
The Q7 has centric pads and rotors. No problem with any of them.
FireSprink73@reddit
Powerstop are usually pretty good. I have them on my Denali and my wife's Terrain. There is a big difference between their stock replacement and performance rotors and pads. The stock replacement are just that. But the drilled and slotted rotors are as good as they get without getting track day specific rotors. And there is a huge difference in the heavy duty and performance pads vs. the stockers.
Never heard of Mavis. Is that a person or a shop somewhere?
Obviously doing it yourself is the way to go. Full powerstop kit and shop labor should easily run $700 to $800. Dealer price would easily be plus 50% to double that
99nine99@reddit
Mavis is a chain tire shop...not sure if it's national or regional.
anon_dox@reddit
I disagree.. it is of the highest priority for the dealerships.
Interesting-Yak6962@reddit
In North America, we don’t follow a schedule. We go by what the computer tells us to do. And the thing breaks anyways.
Conscious-Food1622@reddit
To be fair, you have to take the front end off of most Audis to get to anything in the front of the engine. The rear of the engine actually seems okay since it’s so far towards the front axle and away from the firewall.
rklug1521@reddit
The service position
no_man_is_hurting_me@reddit
Once you're good at it, it's only 1 1/2 to 2 hours to get it off!
confusedWanderer78@reddit
Yeah but if you’re going to a shop for service, they’re charging book time no matter what.
MarionberrySalt8567@reddit
If you're going to the shop with an owdy don't stop here. We don't work on crap. You can't fix stupid, and it's hard working for stupid people. ( He bought it, he must be)
anon_dox@reddit
While dealing with the owner ...who is an Audi owner..
AndyjHops@reddit
How bad are you at turning a wrench if getting an Audi into service position takes 1.5-2 hours? That’s a 15 minute job.
no_man_is_hurting_me@reddit
You remove the bumper cover, crash bar headlights, and cooling package in 15 minutes?
AndyjHops@reddit
Service mode is removing bumper cover, unbolting the lockcarrier/crash bars from the frame horns and sliding the front lock carrier with the cooling package and crash bars still in place. If you REALLY need more room, you can undo a couple quick connectors on the passenger side, take the lock carrier slide bolts out and rotate the entire lock carrier with everything still attached off to the side. Own a restore VAG cars for fun, it’s an easy/quick job. If it takes you 1.5-2 hours, you are doing wrong.
Better-Tough6874@reddit
It doesn't matter how much time it TAKES YOU. It's about what " the book" says.
AndyjHops@reddit
Are you trying to implying that Audi charges 1.5-2 hours of time to put a car in service position?
Better-Tough6874@reddit
The point being a seasoned mechanic like your sef can beat book time. And yes "most" dealerships go by the " book".
AndyjHops@reddit
Yeah, but the book time for service position isn’t 1.5-2 hours lol
no_man_is_hurting_me@reddit
LOL. The bumper cover is easy.
I'm doing many B8.5 A4's. Im also not worried about setring speed records.
I'm not remembering any hoses on the pass side. The tranny cooler lines?
We usually hinge the cooler package on the drivers side. And hang it off a brace we clamp on the drivers side. Then it can go up and down on the hoist with the rest of the car.
duebina@reddit
Less than that, 15 to 20 minutes
AlienVredditoR@reddit
The Audi service position is being bent over the hood before work even starts
Destrega306@reddit
Newer Audis have the most complicated process for the most simple jobs. Their oil changes are expensive for a reason.
Sir_Lee_Rawkah@reddit
Is this on purpose ? Does it have any actual benefits to it ? Peope talk about amazing design but is this just how they like to do things ?
Destrega306@reddit
Just newer engineering, service technicians dread the simplest jobs on certain parts
Sea_Target211@reddit
Don't threaten me with a good time.
Menethea@reddit
Note the “ow” in Audi
MakionGarvinus@reddit
Now, this made me laugh.
lil-whiff@reddit
Assume the position
anon_dox@reddit
Under rated comment
Embarrassed-Advice89@reddit
20 minutes to get a car in service position and everything is SO much easier.
arfreeman11@reddit
Yep. If you've done it more than once, you realize that it's just a nice addition to the labor hours.
Embarrassed-Advice89@reddit
Spoken like a true technician haha
Mechanic_Dad-23@reddit
Lol, and BMWs requiring the entire bumper to come off for a headlight housing caught me off guard.
SignificanceDue9857@reddit
Unless you have one that has the timing chain on the rear of the e engine- then the gates of Hell open up.
Environmental_Tap792@reddit
Until you get to the starter under the intake , don’t know which brand does that but seems like a high end manufacturer
not_a_gay_stereotype@reddit
At least they make it so that you can work on the thing
Conscious-Food1622@reddit
It’s better than the engine being crammed in there with zero space, that’s for sure!
Training_Bumblebee54@reddit
This is an issue with a number of Audis, but I think that problem is overstated just because the B6/7 S4s were so bad on that front.
geneparmesan31@reddit
You aren't wrong about that. However I think the difficulty of it is often overblown. It's actually quite simple and quick if someone has worked on a car before.
pwnageface@reddit
This. Like most cars, if you take care of it and regularly maintain it, the car should run fine for a long time. Having said that, yes, in the states a Mercedes or BMW is going to cost you more than a VW. Their parts simply cost more and you need "specialized" mechanics to work on them.
Orlando1701@reddit
As someone with a VW Golf… yeah it’s kind of a money pit even with me being a semi-competent driveway mechanic.
Green_Confusion1038@reddit
Audis that are German made not Mexico VW rebadges are typically engine out cars. In Europe mechanics work on cars by pulling engines out the front. This is true for other Euro designed cars too. Americas crash regulations make this harder when they modify for the US. They dont worry about working on anything in the car, the idea is big engine in small car, no empty spaces.
Hostificus@reddit
I had to drop the engine on my VR6 to replace the water cooler alternator.
zorrowhip@reddit
The thermostat? A mechanic posted on Reddit who had to disassemble the entire front of the benz to replace a bulb.
ki15686@reddit
** shudder **. I owned an Audi TT for a few weeks. It cost $5000 to replace the brake booster (something that would be $400 on a Toyota). Why? Because the whole f**king engine has to come out of the car to access it!! So dumb. I only buy Toyotas now
-C0RV1N-@reddit
Shit like this is the real reason German cars are trash; they're just designed in the most autistic way possible that doesn't GAF about practical realities us pleebs have to face outside of the engineers sandbox.
There are so many things that while on one hand are impressive from a technological standpoint, make zero sense to include in a car, or even if it does, they create a way to screw over the customer by implementing it in the dumbest way possible.
WAR_T0RN1226@reddit
"German engineering" really just means they did the sexy part of making something cool, but they refuse to do the hard part of making it practical.
Aggravating_Bell_426@reddit
They're a nation of clockmakers, what did you expect?
siggystabs@reddit
Interestingly, Porsche sports cars don’t have this issue, all their engines are the same general size and shape, and they have a dedicated platform with pretty well thought out maintenance routes.
Coming from an Audi, this was a pleasant surprise.
ki15686@reddit
I’m not totally sure. I had a 911 for a while before the TT. Every time I took the car in for something I had heart palpitations. Everything was minimum $1000 (this was 20 years ago) because the engine had to be dropped down from under the car to access things like spark plugs. Yes, in theory I guess I could have done it at home but I didn’t feel comfortable dropping an engine in my driveway supported by jack stands.
siggystabs@reddit
Yes, to be clear I am not suggesting the 911 is a Honda Civic as far as maintenance, but for things like spark plugs you don’t have to drop the whole engine, you can access quite a lot by taking the wheels off, even on cars as new as the 991/992. Oil changes are easy. For Boxster/Cayman, there is an access panel behind the drivers seat and underneath the top mechanism — makes belts, alternator, and intake work simpler.
Basically, for an exotic german sports car company, Porsche could do a lot worse in the maintenance department.
redline83@reddit
BMW is way better than Audi and MB on this. Audi is by FAR the worst. BMW serviceability is actually pretty good.
BaboTron@reddit
German engineer, explaining the car: (pulls down flowchart and exploded parts diagram, whips a pointing stick at it) “IT IS POSSIBLE.”
Frequent-Industry113@reddit
I mean it definitely depends on what toyota you’re talking about. A 2010ish tacoma with an electronic brake booster is into the thousands to replace, same thing with late 90s early 2000s lexus (toyota) Gs400. Just the booster alone is about $1000 new.
Im not saying audi TTs dont suck maintenance wise, but its not always roses and daisies in toyotaland either lmao
strait_lines@reddit
Mercedes GL is like that for the starter motor. You have to drop the engine to get at it. I felt like I was getting a good deal paying $3500 to replace it, but it totally had me missing my infiniti where repair costs were far lower.
dontfret71@reddit
Eh…. Bmw “maintenance” shouldnt mean replacing bottom end bearings
H3adshotfox77@reddit
That's not entirely true at all. So VWs are the same as Audis for most purposes, changing the thermostat in a 2003 Jetta is book like 8 hours, calls for basically jacking the motor up. With 3 6 inch extensions and 2 swivels I can change it in 10 minutes.
There is also a ton of aftermarket parts from companies like Bosch that are incredibly reliable. Between learning to work on them, a few specialty tools, and aftermarket parts, they are not really any different In cost than a Honda.
jpnc97@reddit
This pretty much sums it up except BMW is far more reliable than the others statistically. Except 911s
MassivePresence777@reddit
Audi's location for the timing chain is hilarious.
Le-Squirtle@reddit
The thermostat is under the timing cover on the newer V motors, that's the issue with Audis. Stupid fucking design from any way you look at it.
Big_Smooth_CO@reddit
This.
German cars have been built to tighter tolerances than say our American cars. This means they are going to perform better for the most part, drive better and are engineered (over) better then most of our cars.
This is coming from someone that drives them, races them, fixes them and has sold more of them most people will ever even think about.
I also buy more reliable vehicles. I won’t be getting rid of my GX 460 till toy/lex stop making their new shit cheaper and fucking it up badly. The quest for profits often ends damaging the company that shoots high.
My_friends_are_toys@reddit
The cost of doing an oil change on a luxury brand goes up because of the labor involved in removing a ton of bolts to remove the bottom cover just to get to the oil filter and drain plug...
bigloser42@reddit
uh, no, at least not with BMW. I have a 440i, I have a little flap that needs a slotted screwdriver to turn 90 degrees, then I have access to the drain bolt. My old ZHP had the same thing. As does my Fathers M550i and my Mother's X5. The Oil filter is a cartridge style affair that is full accessible from the top with no special equipment(it is on the bottom on the M550i, but there is an accesses panel that needs 3 screws to get at. In general Oil changes on my cars have been significantly easier and faster than on my wife's Buicks, or my Parent's older American/Japanese cars.
My_friends_are_toys@reddit
ok. Notice I said "Luxury brands" and not specifically BMW, etc.
bigloser42@reddit
This is a thread about the cost of maintenance on German cars, and your comment is invalid for the best selling of the big 3 German luxury cars. BMW will change your oil at the dealer for $99 for most cars over 5 years old as they qualify for the “value line” service.
TheWonkiestThing@reddit
Don't worry, it's not just Audi's now, the new Chevy Trailblazer and Trax and the Buick Versions of those cars, you also have to take the front end off. Except it's for an "American" car, made in Korea.
trreeves@reddit
I replaced the water pump, thermostat and coolant temp sensor myself on my MB E320, within the last year. It was pretty easy. It's twenty years old and has 226,000 miles on it now. A new one would probably be harder to work on. We did have to replace the engine on our 2012 BMW X5 diesel after it seized,$11,000. Still don't know why it seized. So, mixed bag.
hilomania@reddit
That's not just Audi. My biggest shock ever was having to drop the whole front bumper to change a headlight bulb on a Subaru...
dpceee@reddit
I watched a nice documentary about German vs Japanese engineering and that point came up for heavy machinery and cars. In Germany, you're expected to follow the directions and rules and the engineers design with this in mind. If your product breaks, it's because you were using it wrong. The Japanese engineers typically try to engineer things expecting people to use the product in unintended ways.
MeepMeeps88@reddit
Or the timing chains in the old S4s with the V8s. Timing chain was on the back of the engine. If it fails, the entire engine has to be pulled out, resulting in a $8,000 repair, hence why you don't see any of them on the road anymore.
cedit_crazy@reddit
I'm told the porche boxters have the same issue with them being mid engined resulting in any job bigger than a oil change requires the entire disassembly of the interior
Open-Mathematician93@reddit
Timing belt change on a 3.0tdi v6 Audi? Engine out and £4k please!
Capable_Serve7870@reddit
I had a Volvo that had a pension for burning up alternators. I had to do 2X 1500$ alternator installs in less than a year. They have to remove the turbo each time. It's a nightmare.
flying_wrenches@reddit
That’s cars in general.
To change the rear 3 spark plugs on my Lexus, I’m removing the entire windshield wiper assembly, and the intake manifold before I play yoga to get my hand down there…
Compared to my neighbors (not running) Datsun. Where you can see everything, and there’s enough room to sit beside the carburetor comfortably..
OkTransportation6671@reddit
Short answer, yes. Had this experience over our ownership of our BMW, Audi, VW, MB, Porsche over the past 20 years. We're all back to Toyota, Lexus, Honda now since they all have its problems and when they do it's a fraction of what the German cars cost. Though one of us is considering Genesis. We'll go back to having German cars when we eventually move to Europe. Mercedes is as ubiquitous as a Toyota there and maintenance costs about the same too.
netman18436572@reddit
Yes they are. Especially MB and BMW
mach198295@reddit
If you want the luxury of a German car without the expensive buy a Lexus. Hard to beat Toyota.
mach198295@reddit
I’ve had a couple of Mercedes and didn’t find them money pits but then I bought used and did my own maintenance.
woodcutterboris@reddit
My German car has been awesome and trouble free for the last 5 years. Will return 70mpg on the highway and I imagine it would easily do 140mph, say on a deserted road at 3am. For example.
Agitated-Hair-987@reddit
5 years ago I bought a 2014 BMW 328 diesel with 65k miles from a shady second hand dealership. All red flags, I know. In the last 5 years, I had to take it to the shop for 2 recalls, a bad tail light ground, and just recently for a new oil filter housing - it's plastic and cracked. Otherwise just breaks, tires, and fluids. No timing chain issues yet at 147k miles. Interior is still perfect. No rattles or creaks. The car runs and drives perfectly. Now I've done more work to it, but none of it was necessary. Being a BMW fuckboy I had to lower it, tint it, and tune/delete it. Of course the shops and dealerships charge a little more per hour and the parts are a little expensive - cost me $1800 to fix the oil filter housing - but it's still cheaper than buying a new car.
Define_Expert_0566@reddit
New ones are for certain.
Jack99Skellington@reddit
Yes, they are. They drive great, and are quite luxurious. But they are way over-engineered. And when things go wrong, it is hard to find out why, and even more complicated to fix them.
Socalwarrior485@reddit
I only buy older Mercedes.
If you can work on your own car, they are great cars that aren’t any more expensive than the Honda I sold.
If you have to have someone else fix it, don’t buy one. You’re going to get bent over on parts and labor. The markups are insane sometimes.
MostlyBrine@reddit
Here’s the joke I heard many years ago: you can buy a nice german car every three years, or you can buy a Japanese appliance once, and give it to your first three kids to drive it through college. The difference in maintenance pays for college.
Electrical_Menu_3873@reddit
Yes. Parts are expensive, a lot of proprietary parts. Labor is also more expensive because a lot of proprietary parts and technology can only be serviced by certified dealers. BMW uses a lot of plastics on their engine to save cost, and these parts go bad quickly. Benz put a lot of experimental proprietary technology on their cars, which are problematic for reliability.
kim-jong-pooon@reddit
My mom buys a certified preowned X5 every 18 months or so. She’s self employed and uses section 179 to write off the depreciation.
Her current X5 is a 2021 model with 50,000 miles and she’s had over $13,000 worth of warranty work alone on it, not including regular maintenance.
I would never own a BMW/Merc/Audi outside of warranty unless I’d budgeted ~50% of the vehicle’s value for emergency repairs over the time I own it.
elvisizer2@reddit
it's annoying but you really have to break it down by year/model with these brands.
as far as general things, german cars DO expect to get the scheduled maintenance, no skipping things and no putting things off- if you do they will break. For a lot of people even doing the scheduled maintenance is crazy talk, so it's hard to judge people's context on this. My experience is that all german brands occasionally have models with issues. but if you avoid the problem models/years and do the scheduled stuff they're very reliable. Lotta caveats there, I know lol
ChiefTestPilot87@reddit
Compared CyberTrucks, no
Puppyofparkave@reddit
Yes
Repulsive_Fly5174@reddit
I've owned a 2014 A6 TDI purchased new. I have kept up with the scheduled maintenance and have had 0 mechanical issues. After 130,000 miles it was time to do the.seco D brake job and replace the rotors. Next up is to replace the upper control arms because the bushings are done for. But this is all normal wear and tear. Engine is still in top shape, interior is in great condition. Can't say that I have ever had a similar experience with any other car brand over nearly 50 years of driving.
huckleberry1934@reddit
If you budget for your Maintenence as it’s suggested and get it t done properly with quality parts and on schedule will be your best bet. Owning German is expensive. You can plan and budget for maintenance but not repairs. This goes for all cars but especially imports. Stay up on maintenance now or pay more for it later. Simple.
davekurze@reddit
People think it’s a steal to get a used German car for a “good” price lol. I currently own two German cars and have owned a few others in the past. I won’t buy anything that’s not part of VW group (Audi, Porsche, VW). Best cars on the planet, IF you take care of them.
You need to follow the maintenance schedule or you roll the dice. When it comes to German cars, do your research on the specific model you want. If you can’t afford OEM or quality aftermarket parts, don’t buy one. If you can’t afford the maintenance, don’t buy one. If you can’t afford, a potential 5k+ emergency repair bill, don’t buy one.
If those aren’t issues, go for it! Absolutely love my RE3. Puts a massive smile on my face everytime I get in it.
pgregston@reddit
My 30!year old Benz has bits that cost a lot to replace and bits that seems cheap. But it drives like a car that cost $75000 in 1994, because it was designed and built as a top end luxury car. It’s a joy to drive and since I paid $14000 for it in 2007, I’m laughing even when I drop four figures on something like rebuilding the power top. It’s worth more today than what I bought it for. I have a cheap newer hybrid that I use to go 70mph on boring freeways and get 50mpg. Together I pay way below the federal figure for cost per mile. I can sell it for what I paid for it because low cost high mpg cars aren’t being sold in the US anymore. As with everything, how you go about it matters. You can make a German car cost effective
ToThePillory@reddit
I had a mate with an old Merc, maybe 2001 model in 2017, it ran absolutely fine, the only issue was the sun roof was kind of sticky, you had to jiggle it a bit for the electric motor to open it fully.
People drive Mercedes as taxis all over the world, if they were dying at 100,000 kms, I don't think they'd be all that popular.
I'm not saying they're Toyota reliable, but they're not the lemons people make out on the Internet.
A work colleague has a newish VW Passat, that's been a bit of a nightmare, but it's all been covered under warranty.
aja_us@reddit
Older german cars were way more reliable.
BastardsCryinInnit@reddit
I think this anti German car thing is very much an American anecdote and definitely not the experience of people in Europe and beyond!
PinnerSnitch99@reddit
The taxis you’re talking about are produced in Germany with bulletproof diesel engines and manual transmissions. They’re not the same.
German cars produced in North America usually come from the US and Mexico factories with poor quality control and shitty parts.
ToThePillory@reddit
I don't believe Mercedes offer any model in a manual transmission anymore.
PinnerSnitch99@reddit
I believe you missed my point. In North America yes, they are all automatic. The majority of Europe/ Africa and Asia still drive manual transmissions since they’re cheaper to maintain and replace.
A manual transmission can very well last the entirety and life of the car (besides clutch and flywheel replacements)
My point is the German cars sold in North America are made in poor factories with shitty transmissions and belts. So yes if you live in North America, unless it’s a German import it’s going to be a money pit.
Dry_Explanation4968@reddit
Yes. Run. Japanese is your best friend
Annual_Pen4907@reddit
Kind of but not so much if you can learn to do most simple things yourself.
In 2012 I bought a 2007 BMW X3 with 70k miles, sold it a few years ago with 275k miles.
In 2018 I bought a 2015 Audi Q5 r with 57k miles, currently at 155k miles I’ve literally only needed to do 1 repair.
Now, on to maintenance.. do I do their 100+ point checks? No. I change oil and filters every 10k. I change transmission, differential and transfer case about every 30k . Everything else I change it when it wears out.
The Audi has been a far better car to me so far. Even before 150k miles the bmw needed 3 or 4 repairs. The only truly expensive repair was a new (to me) transmission at about 180k (had not been changing fluids until then as they say lifetime fluids).
Things I’ve learned how to do though Internet forums and You tube..
Change brakes / bleed brakes Change spark plugs and ignition coils Change valve cover gasket Change starter Change oil & filter A few others that I’m not remembering..
I had mechanics do some other things that weren’t as simple for me, the trick is find an independent mechanic who will let you bring them parts and order them online.
Depreciation on a new car is extremely expensive but since it doesn’t come out of your pocket you don’t think about it. Repairs done frugally will be less than depreciation on a new car.
CGLADISH@reddit
I read somewhere recently, someone stating that, German cars are engineered for people who regularly maintain their vehicles. If maintenance is kept up, they tend to be pretty reliable. Japanese engineer their cars, based on people not doing regular maintenance. Know that the average owner will be lax in this area, they base their build on that.
Honkbats@reddit
No. I’ve had a 2016 M2 (still currently own) an M4 CS (F generation) and a new G82 M4 Comp. Over never had a single issue with any of them. They have all been my daily drives. It’s like any car, if you buy a heavily modified one that’s had the shit best out of it then yes, expect to spend money. If you buy a super old M3 that’s had 7 owners and had 130k on the clock then yes, expect costs. If you look after it and it’s unmolested then the answer is no. Everyone I know who has problems with their M cars are the guys who want 800hp and have modified the shit out of them.
El_tus750@reddit
If you are looking at new, I would say lease(if your situation permits), definitely buy the maintenance plan, you can negotiate this with dealership or go third party. Also, have you looked at Volkswagen. They can be very reliable. If Toyota is not impressive due to interior, jave you looked at their lexus alternatives. Or Honda/Acura. In my case I find my Acura MDX to be just as comfortable and luxurious as a similarly priced german competitor.
3Gilligans@reddit
Where buyers get into trouble is when they buy a $80,000 car (when new) for $20k (used). The cost of ownership/repairs does not go down just because you got a good deal. If you can do your own repairs, you're golden. You'll just have to deal with the high cost of parts. If you are paying someone else, be prepared for a labor bill 4x higher than a similar repair on non-German car.
I will never buy another Audi for as long as I live, I was buying O2 sensors in bulk. And, yes, I was using Top Tier gas
Quantumkool@reddit
Why not get a Lexus ?? Or Acura ?
EvilDarkCow@reddit (OP)
I do like some of Lexus's offerings a lot, but the used Lexus market sucks. I'm looking to keep it under $25k, and it seems the newest ones in that price range are going to be 2017-18. I just don't want a car that's going to be 10 years old or have 100k miles on it by the time I get it paid off. I do have family who will never buy anything not-Toyota again, so that might be a good sign.
As for Acura, hmmm. The only experience I have with anything Honda/Acura is a 2000 Integra a cousin had. Beat to absolute hell and at one point had been driven with no oil in it, but still ran like a song. But I hear they're not as good as they used to be. I'll be honest, I've never really looked into it. A used TLX is a hell of a lot cheaper than an ES350 of the same year though.
25_Watt_Bulb@reddit
"I just don't want a car that's going to be 10 years old or have 100k miles on it by the time I get it paid off. That's how I got a Ford that's literally falling apart."
This is how I know you've never owned a Toyota. A 10 year old Toyota with 100k miles genuinely almost feels like a new car still, with new car levels of needed repairs.
themcsame@reddit
On the flipside though...
Until you hit 10 years 100k, that shit is going to be under warranty. You'll likely be within warranty for a good chunk of your finances unless you're doing silly mileage.
Same can't be said of the likes of BMW and whatnot.
methlabz@reddit
Mid-2010's TLX & RL/RLX are apparently excellent cars
handsdowntrevor@reddit
Ugly though
HolyFuckImOldNow@reddit
About three years ago I bought a 2005 Tundra with 225,000 miles on it. I replaced valve cover gaskets and the steering rack (I knew they were bad before I bought it) and that's been it. Nothing else but oil changes and a radio upgrade so I have Bluetooth. My 2006 Matrix currently has 145,000 miles and only needed a total of $320 of service (including oil changes) over the last 4 years.
I wouldn't worry about 100k on the clock with a Lexus, so long as recommended maintenance has been done and there aren't any existing electric gremlins.
tonedef85@reddit
But that's the difference with Toyota products. A 10 year old Lexus with 100 thousand miles won't be falling apart and still have a ton of life in it if you take care of it.
CowAffectionate8780@reddit
100k miles is just broken in for a Toyota/Lexus model.
Sketch2029@reddit
100k miles is just broken in for a Honda/Acura model.
Lenny5160@reddit
My wife really wanted a German luxury car after getting a nice new job, but it had to be a used one as we have multiple kids in college. I was able to talk her into a 10 year old Lexus GS350 AWD F-Sport with 115k on it. Both of us really love that car; it's great.
kstorm88@reddit
If you don't finance then you never have to worry about making payments on a car that's a pile
Digital332006@reddit
I've got a 2021 Acura tlx and I'd recommend Acura. You pay Honda level maintenance, it's comfortable, you've got some speed and power if you want it, and it's pretty high tech in the options. The trackpad controls are a controversial choice but you do get used to them.
Worldly-Kitchen-9749@reddit
The 2025 Jetta is pretty nice and in your price range.
Ok-Example-3951@reddit
I've owned two mini Coopers (bmw). I love them, but I'm also into cars and have very small arms so I get away with replacing stuff that usually requires the front end removed. My newer one I've had from 70k to 120k miles. I've replaced the alternator ($200 part, job quote was $2k at a mechanic) and the alternator belt by myself. It's currently been in the shop for a misfire ($1k deep with spark plugs and coil pack changes) still not sure what the issue is.
That being said, my Honda hybrid was more expensive and frustrating than the mini. All of the plastic in my Honda broke off, my door handle broke, crappy sound system and ac. A single headlight bulb was $150 and I had to drop the bumper to get to it. I bought this car with 15k on it and it was 3 years old, and traded it back in for a mini in under a year.
OldRaj@reddit
I’ve owned three VWs and one Audi. I now drive Toyota. My German cars were very sensitive on maintenance. My previous Honda and my current Tacoma are the exact opposite.
Relative_Seesaw5635@reddit
I love the way older BMW’s drive. Nothing compares.
Realistic_Stretch316@reddit
My mechanic is part German, and he says he would never own a German automobile. Prior to that, I had asked him if I should consider buying a German-made vehicle. He laughed and responded only, “if you want to make me rich.”
Latios19@reddit
Everybody has a different experience. My sister had an M series for several years and never had an issue other than something with the Radio/center screen and regular oil changes.
I’ve had friends that not even a year later, and the car needed repairs already.
Maybe drive style? I don’t know. But if you like it go for it and live your own experience haha
USA250@reddit
Yes, but everyone else is playing catch-up.
Accomplished_Emu_658@reddit
I worked for a few german car manufacturers. Yes they are overall. Does that mean you will have issues? No. Audis with their water leaks destroying electronics was pretty common. Lets not forget engine issues. Mercedes and their harnesses that would biodegrade inside the car was pretty common. But at same time i had customers that never had major issues with substantial miles and years on car.
dathorese@reddit
So.... I have a VW Tiguan. No problems with it ... 2020 SE model. The only thing ive had to do maintenance wise on it is replace the Brakes (front and Rear at different times), the Transmission fluid, and i replaced the wheels with some offname brand that cost me like 100 bucks a tire (installed from a local shop)... Brakes and transmission were done at the Dealership. I also had one issue with an Airbag sensor, That should have been covered under warranty but wasnt because it was "water damage" and i told them that its pretty fucking stupid and poorly designed to have an electrical sensor underneath where the Air conditioning drain hose is. Dealer Agreed, But it didnt save me any money. Those are the only things ive had to do... 82000 Miles on the vehicle.
Before that i had a 2016 Tiguan as a lease, 4 years until i bought the 2020. No problems at all.. Just regular maintenance, and had to replace a few tires.. Didnt even have to replace the brakes. when i turned in the vehicle with 60000 miles.. the 2020 is obviously the bigger model compared to the 2016, so hence the reason of having to do brakes on the 2020 and not the 2016..
At this point,, ,Im probably a VW owner for life at this point... Cabin is extra roomy... For always being on the bigger side, just about any other vehicle i have owned, the seat was always as far back as it could go.. With the VW, plenty of room, and ive got more if i need it... my seat is not all the way back. and even with the seat all the way back, there is still plenty of leg room based on the way that the design is built..
Hour_Atmosphere_1941@reddit
My 2016 gti has been going strong for 6 years with pretty much 0 issues and only regular maintenance being preformed
RustyClawHammer@reddit
There is nothing more expensive than a cheap German car.
Donr1458@reddit
The reason this answer depends is because it depends on the brand, the model of the brand, and how old/what generation you get. I have owned and worked on almost all of the German brands at this point.
VW - not terrible, but not good, either. And their vehicles don’t impress me for the amount of money they cost.
Audi - the worst in my opinion. I just did the thermostat with a friend on his A6. We had to remove the front end and supercharger to get to it. Audis seem to break a lot and are atrociously designed to make things more difficult than they need to be.
Mercedes - better than Audi, but not impressive to me. I personally wouldn’t own one. Their plastics, especially under the hood, seem to be terrible as they age. I especially hate their little accordion intake tubes that seem to disintegrate.
BMW - these have a terrible reputation, and a lot of it is deserved. That being said, I would consider this over any of the other brands unless you’re specifically getting a sports car (then a Porsche is equivalent in the chances you take). Stay away from the V8 models, they’ve always had problems and the new hot v turbo engines will make you believe in God. Not because they are great, but because you will KNOW Satan is real, so God must also be real.
However, if you buy the more recent inline engine cars (especially anything related to the new B series motors, so the B48,B58, and the S55 and S58 M car motors) you are in a much better position. Not as terrible to fix and much, much better reliability than in the past.
Porsche - this one is a mixed bag. I wouldn’t want to have anything to do with the SUVs or Panameras as they age. They are complicated, parts are expensive, and things are packed in. They remind me of Audis.
Porsche sports cars (cayman, Boxster, 911) are much better. Not as complicated, easier to work on. Most Porsche sports cars have some kind of flaw that will cost you huge money to fix (bore scoring, bearing failures, water pipes coming loose that require dropping engines, and so on), but is relatively rare.
For any of these cars, an aftermarket warranty isn’t really a bad idea. My friends who have them on their Porsches (most of my friend group goes with the P cars) all made out and saved more than they spent.
If you make the right choice and go into it knowing what to expect, you’ll be fine.
HorizonBC@reddit
VW, Audi and Skoda are mostly the same other than the badge and how it looks.
themcsame@reddit
Which makes me laugh when you go over to car talk, in one breath they're talking shit about VW. The next? PRAISE SKODA
Donr1458@reddit
Some Audis are basically a VW, yes. Others are far different.
The supercharged V6 in the A6 I was talking about has no VW equivalent.
I find the lower end Audis to be basically a VW, but as you move to their more expensive and larger cars, they are different and worse to work on.
HorizonBC@reddit
True, sweet car btw. It’s important to stress those brands are all one company and use similar platforms for the all their cars.
Also, I’m baffled that German cars in the US are seen as unreliable when US cars in the Europe are seen the same way.
Donr1458@reddit
Oh, the car isn’t mine. I was helping a friend with his.
I think the German and American cars are made for the sort of culture and market they exist in. German stuff is very high tech and needs owners that really take care of them and focus on the details, which is common in the German market. American stuff is made simple and tough and less sensitive to abuse. They don’t always drive as nice, though.
Training_Bumblebee54@reddit
See, Ford, FCA, and GM have been just using their European models as a basis for many of the American ones for ages now. GM essentially takes an Opel, removes the fun and quality, and then sells it as a Buick, so you have European repair bills but American crappiness.
Hotel_california_10@reddit
What other Audis have you worked on if you don’t mind me asking?
Donr1458@reddit
I’ve also worked on an A4, an allroad, and one of the Q5 SUVs.
The A6 has been the worst. But in all their cars, they really pack things in close to the bumper. So you end up having to take more apart than you should have to for things that shouldn’t be that bad. It’s especially bad on the longitudinally mounted engines.
NoClipping1337@reddit
How can you say the q5 is transverse when it’s not? The q3 is, q5 isn’t.
clear831@reddit
I have worked on a q7, fuck audi
Training_Bumblebee54@reddit
The Porsche SUVs remind you of Audis because they are Audis. It’s the same as how the A3 and TT are essentially the same as the Golf.
Donr1458@reddit
They are somewhat the same, but not completely.
One of the biggest differences is the drivelines. The Porsches have unique motors and they use a longitudinal arrangement in the Macan where Audi uses a transverse in the Q5.
And that does make a big difference. My friend with the Cayenne has the front cover leak on her V8, which is an engine out fix. And working on a macan turbo is a lot different (and mostly worse) than a Q5 with the turbo 4.
The Porsches do share their lower level engines with Audi, but once you step up to a higher model, the drivelines are different. The different engines and how they are mounted makes a big difference in just how terrible it is to fix.
Training_Bumblebee54@reddit
Fair enough
clear831@reddit
That is how I feel about Porsche and Audi
Jackinthebox99932253@reddit
Good assessment, sounds like Scotty kilmers video lol!
I agree and will likely be going with bmw and there’s a German specialty shop near me I would take it to.
Donr1458@reddit
Scotty is loud and obnoxious, but a lot of what he says is correct. I think he can sort of overstate his points to some degree, but he’s usually not straight up wrong.
obviouslybait@reddit
Yes, I've owned one. Money pit. In the shop for suspension and other issues at least 2-3 time a year at an insane cost due to parts coming from Germany.
V12-Jake@reddit
They can be, but really even that has caveats. I have a 2004 MB S600 and a 2005 Lexus LS430, and drive both regularly. Parts costs and fuel economy are similar, as are things like tires and oil changes, however the Mercedes is absolutely less tolerant of deferred maintenance, and generally less reliable as well. The S600 is absolutely an outlier even among German cars, but the mean time between failures on the S600 is significantly shorter than it is on the LS430, even with both being maintained with the same level of care.
TomorrowDramatic4883@reddit
Honestly in my experience there is a sweet spot in them being old enough that parts get cheaper and not to old that parts are hard to find. Also stuff like the 3 series was mass produced makes parts easier to find used all things to take into account
United-Perspective11@reddit
Don't. That's what I can tell you from experience. German cars are fun fast and reliable, for the first few years of ownership. But... an economy car that uses audi and porsche parts.....that's gonna hurt. And don't tune it, the dealer will either not work on it, or they will fuck it up. I choose a toyota corolla hatchback as a replacement, and it looks like a good call.
atraudes@reddit
Yep, the answer is it depends. My opinion is that buying used is a safer approach since you have a few years of experience to draw from. If there are major/expensive defects you're more likely to know about them ahead of time.
Stay on top of maintenance. When service is due, do it. Don't ignore check engine lights. Don't go more than 5000 miles for oil changes. Don't believe that any fluid is "lifetime". None of them are, and will cost you a lot more down the road. Their purpose is to boost the appeal of the car when it's new and last just long enough to get out of warranty. Parts will generally cost more than domestic alternatives, but don't cheap out. OEM is generally the safest bet though there are cheaper alternatives that are the same quality.
Set some money aside for when that rainy day happens. Best case scenario you never need it and you can use it as a safety net for the next car.
Join a forum for the car you're looking at/have bought. Keep an eye on what others are running into. This will give you invaluable guidance on things to address before they're an issue. People there can usually give excellent advice on the best brand of parts to buy and what to look out for.
Higher performance models like AMG/M/S/whatever will cost more in maintenance naturally, but in general are also more likely to have big expensive defects.
All of this advice really applies to ANY car. Staying on top of maintenance is your best insurance. Sometimes there are defects that simply unavoidable but good maintenance will let you sidestep 90% of problems. My experience comes from owning a 2004 Volvo, 2010 and 2011 Mercedes, and 2010 Range Rover, FWIW.
MarionberrySalt8567@reddit
I am a mechanic. If I won a bmw in the lotto, I would trade it for a Toyota. I know what you said. Get over your interior woes, it's way better than German cars.they ain't to live in, they're to drive, get from a to b.
Frequent_Fold_7871@reddit
Anecdotally, my first real car was a Cayenne. Lasted 5 years without a single issue, just regular oil changes. Most reliable car I ever owned and was able to tow more than with my Ram 1500. Sold it 5 years later and I'm assuming the next guy had to do all the maintenance I didn't. You're going to be that next guy.
DependentAd9398@reddit
Fix the Ford
Agreeable_Flight4264@reddit
Yes they are. I own 5 of them and will continue to buy them. Anyone defending them are just trying to justify their purchase(likely broke). Oil and coolant leaks on my BMW’s like clockwork. I know that and still buy them
PushPull420@reddit
As a mechanic for 10 years, yes they absolutely are. It is not an exaggeration either
NotBatman81@reddit
If you don't know how to do your own work, they can be. But for the most part, that is a lot of hype from the sort of people that those cars, or more specifically the online communities for those cars, tend to attract. They like to feel special.
For example, many years ago I bought an 80's era Porsche with a blown headgasket that had been sitting. Porsche owners especially think their cars are made from unobtainium. I spent $300 total to rebuild the top end including decking the head, replace all maintenance parts (including timing components), and R&R the entire braking system. Some of the parts needed replaced more often because they were made lightweight for racing, like an annual water pump change, but if you were smart about it you're looking at less than $100 for everything that is beyond normal car maintenance.
That said this was a toy, not a daily driver.
Swamp_Hawk420@reddit
I've had 2 VWs with almost no problems, but I'm very fastidious about maintenance. I think a lot of cars COULD be as reliable as Toyota if people actually took care of them, Toyotas are just the best at taking abuse.
scottscigar@reddit
Yes. Parts are very expensive, labor is expensive, and they are prone to odd failures due to use of questionable parts in some applications. Yes I own a German car.
Off-Da-Ricta@reddit
My daily driver for last 10 years is a BMW. Preventative maintenance. Don’t deviate from the schedule.
National-Fox-7504@reddit
The answer is not “depends”. The reality of today’s world is a massive “YES”. Mine went like this: After purchasing everything was great. Then slowly “things” start happening. Then one day you start it up and BOOM! 15 different error codes that range from minor to “That will be $8000 and we have to order the part from Germany so it will be 6-12 weeks”.
Zealousideal_Let3945@reddit
Yeah. You noticed that about Toyotas.
They are boring as hell. They are designed to be. Boring with shitty interiors is what a lot of people want.
BMW and Audi try to make engaging cars. Different goals. Different levels of tech.
The 330 squeezes ~250 horsepower out of that little engine. The Camry 184.
I’ve owned two bmws. They were incredible.
Life is short. Drive something you like. You can always make more money. You Can’t get back years you compromised.
WaterIsGolden@reddit
Different goals is correct, but I disagree with your assessment that the difference is boring vs engaging.
I worked with Japanese and German engineers on a large project and their philosophies are different. The Japanese engineers focused on reliability and repeatability. If a mechanical part failed Mitsubishi engineers hurried to design it better. With drives and controls Hitachi engineers would work around the clock to get it perfect. It was clear that their goal was to build a machine that tries to last forever and charge you accordingly up front.
The German designs were excellent at precision. But they always engineered their machines around some part that required frequent maintenance or replacement. Their machines are built with future service business is the focus. They drum up future work for their technicians by building failures into their machines, masked as precision that requires frequent tweaking.
So Toyota is trying to make a car that lasts forever, while BMW is making cars that keep their company alive forever.
Further evidence would be things like subscription based heated seats.
Rokossvsky@reddit
I don't really get the boring part. I've been in countless Toyotas and their interior was good, comfortable and nice. Not sure what people want in them anyways, like lots of colour or smth? You forget about it anyways when you drive.
WaterIsGolden@reddit
It's how children rate vehicles. 'Boring' is child speak for 'dependable', like a decent car, good job or good spouse.
'Fun' is the car that vrooms loudly before it dies on the side of the highway, or a job that offers 'cool' amenities instead of decent pay, or the ex that keys your car and smashes your windows.
Adults look at the data, not the fun.
whattheshiz97@reddit
I have no idea what the hell these people are wanting. Like what do you people want?? I recently got a Nissan Frontier and I saw reviews for it claiming that its interior was awful… I thought it was crazy nice, but I’m coming from an 08 Toyota. Like I have heated seats now!! That’s the coolest shit ever!! Also a button to start is really jarring. I don’t know what to do with my keys lol
Rokossvsky@reddit
Oh my gosh you are me I drive a 06 Corolla and it was so cool being in a 23' Camry that I rented for a vacation. The technology, and everything. Best thing is Toyota still keeps the stick so I like the balance.
mrmniks@reddit
and then there's subaru that gets their engines blown 4 times within 100k kms
it has nothing to do with japanese/german mindset
WaterIsGolden@reddit
Did OP mention Australian automakers?
Zealousideal_Let3945@reddit
I’m confused, Toyota wants to make a car that sucks but won’t break. That seems boring.
Anywhichwaybutpuce@reddit
Toyota is like reading a book. BMW is like watching TikTok. One will last a lot time, the other will only hold your attention for a bit.
Different audiences.
badluser@reddit
Found the guy who is envious of the m550 :)
Anywhichwaybutpuce@reddit
It is one of the fastest and best handling cars I’ve ever seen on the side of the road.
Training-Context-69@reddit
I can’t think of the last time I actually seen a BMW on the side of the road. I’m saying this as a Honda owner.
shinkicker00@reddit
Most people don’t give a fuck if a car is boring, they just drive to work.
WaterIsGolden@reddit
This is the mindset of Stellantis customers as well.
Zealousideal_Let3945@reddit
What is wrong with Reddit? This was a reply to some guy wondering if he should buy a bmw or same boring ass camry and I’m getting comments about McLaren’s and dodges.
WaterIsGolden@reddit
Yes, clearly there is something wrong with everyone else. You are just fine.
Zealousideal_Let3945@reddit
Yes I would suggest people who can’t track a conversation are the ones with the problem.
The problem with Reddit is it makes everyone equally as loud
FlyingDutchman9977@reddit
It's more that Toyota won't add something unless they're sure it's reliable, so this can leave them slightly behind the competition in terms of new features and tech, but it also saves them from being full of things that are impressive at debut, but break before 100k. The trade off, is that what Toyota does add, is a lot more likely to hold up.
Toyota can do luxury with lexus, and even some good performance models, so it's not that they can't go above a bare bones corolla, they're just very careful to balance these with longevity and reliability
B5_S4@reddit
Unless, you know, it was the entire design of the 4G63 crank thrust assembly lmao
Awkward-Bit8457@reddit
Or whatever that v6 engine , that was in the 3G eclipse gt/gts.
Or the 3000gt VR4. Lmao
_TheRealKennyD@reddit
I don't think it requires that much nuance. It's obvious where toyota spends R&D money because generally their cars last. But the interiors are...bad. Even Lexus while very refined is behind its competitors in the Luxury segment.
WaterIsGolden@reddit
It's a car, not a couch. Runs reliably > feels luxurious.
So OP is asking if the widespread distrust of German vehicle reliability is justified, and BMW bros respond by pointing out shiny things.
Maybe instead offer some examples of German vehicles that disprove the reputation for high maintenance costs.
_TheRealKennyD@reddit
It really depends on personal preference. I spend far more time in my car than on my couch. If your only goal is to transport yourself as cheaply as possible, you wouldn't even consider a german car.
Some people want to spend 2X on organic produce and grass fed beef. I don't perceive any actual benefit, so I am not going to do that. But I drove a Corolla briefly and to me it felt like where ambition goes to die. Therefore I would spend more on a 3 series that would be better in every subjective measure, but that's my preference. I also drive quite a bit, hence more seat time in car than couch.
Further up in the thread I provided an example of what to look for as a more-reliable-than-not German car, so I did that. Are they higher maintenance? Sure, they can be. But my BMW has been infinitely more reliable than the Toyotas I have owned. I understand that is probably an atypical experience.
chickentenders54@reddit
Life is too short to spend it working just to keep driving cars that are money pits. I'd rather save my money and retire early and enjoy as much of my short life as I can not being a cog in the machine.
wowthatscrazybruh@reddit
On the flipside, life is too short for material focus, avoid emotional and financial stress from the material world at all costs.
BMW X3 m40i. Incredible engine, incredible transmission. Thank god I purchased the extended warranty as I had THREE problems in ONE year of driving (8k miles as I WFH). Fuel sensor, odometer went sideways, and tail door wouldn't close. When the warranty expired, picked up a Tacoma TRD pro.
What's the point of 4s seconds 0-60 when you live in a society? And you have to pay for that thing. It's like spending money on a stripper instead of settling down with a housewife. Life is too short for the uncertainty and instability of tech and performance oriented materialism.
prezj@reddit
Have a Camry. Have a X3m40i. This comment hits home - strongly debating jettisoning the now out of warranty but 3 year newer BMW for an EV. We’ll see.
Smart-Difficulty-454@reddit
Strippers are cheaper than wives
Zealousideal_Let3945@reddit
This sounds boring but if it works for you enjoy your Camry
Gold_Map_236@reddit
What’s not boring is stacking the money you would paying for German cars and maintenance into a dividend paying mutual fund: then eventually living off the dividends.
I could go out and buy a new g wagon: but it feels a lot better having that 160k make me more money year after year
wowthatscrazybruh@reddit
Being able to drive over anything >>>> fast
Zealousideal_Let3945@reddit
Yes. Hopefully those aren’t everyone’s choices.
justinh2@reddit
The idea that you've compromised in life by not driving the fanciest car is very bougie.
I want your life problems.
Zealousideal_Let3945@reddit
I didn’t say the fanciest. Trust me a bmw is not the fanciest car. I said don’t buy one that sucks.
I know, on Reddit rather than better ourselves we stomp around and say it’s not fair.
“I want your life problems.”
Maybe listen to what I say when I tell you how my world works.
But now I have no more time for people who type like they have allergies. Good luck.
mmikke@reddit
So like basically literally "all of the time you had" left for people like the person you responded to just so happened to be the amount of time it took you to reply to them??
You must be a time management wizard to so intricately spend your time!
justinh2@reddit
Lmao. Okay mister better than all of reddit.
Have a nice life.
I'm gonna go "type like I have allergies" I guess. Still trying to figure out what that means.
Arcane_Logic@reddit
Who said all Toyota's were boring?
MkII-MkIV Supra, all the MR2's, Celica GT4, 1st-gen Lexus IS300 5MT, Cressida, etc.
HandleMore1730@reddit
BMW and Audi are aiming for different markets than Toyota. A more fair comparison would be Lexus, that uses high quality materials than on Toyota's.
JayArrggghhhh@reddit
This. Toyotas are great daily drivers. BMWs and Audis are both great fun cars, especially older, well cared for ones. The abuse and neglect that a Toyota will tolerate will break German cars.
Romestus@reddit
As someone that worked at a repair shop every car is boring unless it's on a track. There's no point in having an "engaging" car to sit in traffic or do a road trip when speed limits exist. I've driven everything from a Lexus to a McLaren 720S and just wondered why anyone would own such a vehicle for normal road driving when it's so inconvenient.
The person getting the most enjoyment is someone with a car that makes going from point A to B as comfortable as possible while costing relatively little (gas mileage, maintenance, repairs) who also owns a track car they're not afraid to go to the limit with that they pour all the savings into.
Zealousideal_Let3945@reddit
You wouldn’t own a McLaren for regular road driving.
I don’t know anyone who suggested you should.
That’s laughable.
Romestus@reddit
That is typically what people do. What percentage of McLarens, Lambos, Ferraris, Corvettes, Porsche GT3RS, Audi R8, etc do you think have ever seen a track?
Carknow@reddit
Generally, those are second cars, for days when you can enjoy them.
KitchenPalentologist@reddit
Well... a lot of people drive cars taht are waaay (WAY!) more expensive than they should, especially lately. And cars are one of the greatest wealth destroyers. As much as I like cars, I think people should buy what they can afford.
jjmawaken@reddit
We rented a BMW once and personally there was way too much going on in the display, it was insanely distracting. Speed, map, song playing on the radio, weather, etc. all showed in the same area.
CockroachLate9964@reddit
Actually, sometimes you can't just always make more money. With the rising costs of housing, ed, food, et c., for most of us, no you can't afford unknown thousands in unexpected car maintenance. The dream of a fast, cool car can become a nightmare.
Zealousideal_Let3945@reddit
If you believe you can always make more money you can. If you believe you can’t, you can’t.
I know. Reddit. We are all down trodden. Victims!
I think that’s sad af. We are Devine creates with limitless potential.
How is it I’ve had 2 bmws, a Land Rover and two classic cars? Everyone else is that same as me.
I think the difference is I believe.
isthis_thing_on@reddit
I'm sorry but this is just absurdly bad advice. Detached from reality.
Zealousideal_Let3945@reddit
Detached from your reality.
Odd, we don’t share the same reality. Enjoy what works for you!
ButtholeSurfur@reddit
I read it and shook my head lol. Some "pull yourself up from your bootstraps" type stuff.
ButtholeSurfur@reddit
The Q5 I got as a rental did not have good tech or a particularly nice interior.
Zealousideal_Let3945@reddit
Honestly I wouldn’t buy an Audi. I just included it so people who did wouldn’t feel bad.
But yeah, their interiors kinda suck.
ButtholeSurfur@reddit
Had the rental for two weeks and the entire time I was thinking "who the hell would pay $50k for this"
I mean I guess the engine was good. But it genuinely didn't even even have auto steering, wireless Android Auto/CarPlay, and other things that come on my literal base base model Hyundai.
InitialRevenue3917@reddit
yes.
Relevant_Discount278@reddit
Used German cars are money pits
reluctantbookeeper@reddit
My uncle was a VW mechanic for 50 years and he would tell you to never ever ever buy a VW.
Jarrus__Kanan_Jarrus@reddit
My Mini Cooper was great…until I passed the prepaid service time.
2k every visit, and something always was wrong. Had them fix the window because it wouldn’t got up, 2k, and it broke again a week later. Had to pitch a fit because they wanted to charge 2k again because of label to swap the right $100 part.
Beneficial-Sugar6950@reddit
No, as long as you follow the maintenance schedule. The problem with a lot of older German cars is that people don’t maintain them and then they become money pits. Toyotas are reliable and they can tolerate a lack of maintenance. German cars are reliable but they do not tolerate a lack of maintenance, and when they are not maintained, they become unreliable
Letsmakemoney45@reddit
Yes
xhollec@reddit
Yes
Turbulent-Dentist-77@reddit
Yes they are.
It's quite simple.
Step 1. All cars are machines which break down and need maintenance and parts.
Step 2. Go to GM Parts Direct. Go to BMW parts direct. Check the prices.
Step 3. The parts are all 1.5 to 2x the cost.
Step 4. Check repair pal, car edge, etc. For the occurrence of breakdowns. Note that the differences between German brands and Cadillac are not wildly significant (but the German brands are generally less reliable).
Step 5. Check Kelly Blue Book, Car Edge, avain, etc. And look at depreciation graphs. Note that they are generally worse for German luxury brands.
Step 6. Check hourly rates at a Cadillac or other dealer vs a German brand dealer. They're higher. 1.5x.
Step 7. Come to the conclusion that is right in front of your face. If all cars need maintenance and parts, and all cars depreciate, but German cars do it worse, and cost 1.5x for every associated cost...then they're money pits.
Step 8. Realize that a German luxury brand charges you more for less. To add features which come standard elsewhere, you need to pay thousands more on those products. Simply idiotic.
Blazer323@reddit
I've wanted a Golf for years but will NOT buy one because I don't want to repair it myself after helping with friends VW builds and maintaince. -15 year fleet mechanic and car enthusiast
narwaffles@reddit
Yes they definitely are
Bulky_Cheetah3916@reddit
I have an older Jetta. Had it for 11 years now and has only cost me oil changes and a set of brakes
jasonbirder@reddit
Gotta say i've owned BMWs, Mercs, Audis, Volvos, Alfas etc and i've never really noticed significant cost differences between the german Cars and say a Volvo or an Alfa or a Saab...biggest costs are always Tyres, Pads/Disks and regular servicing anyhow which is pretty standard across all makes.
AdministrativeYam330@reddit
Generally speaking yes, unless you are a diy person. If you are a dealership person just bend over. Don’t know why people sugar coat this.
The_Razielim@reddit
My Dad has a mid-00s BMW X3 and while he's likes it, he also hates that everything is proprietary and there's a markup on everything. Even simple shit costs more because BMW-reasons.
(Disclaimer: he doesn't tinker or mess with it in any way, just drive as needed and take it to the mechanic as needed)
CanadianCPA101@reddit
Yes.
DonkeyGlad653@reddit
My VW diesel? No.
My Audi TT? Yes. I’m selling the TT.
Ill_Economist_7637@reddit
My last car was a Golf TDI Sportwagen. 175k, all I did was brakes, tires, and oil changes. Taught 2 kids to drive, still the original clutch. Timing belt went out and that was the end of it. If I’d had the cash, I would have repaired it.
bgawinvest@reddit
No
garter_girl_POR@reddit
My 2001 c201 was a hella pit lol
bucket1000000@reddit
Volkswagen Jetta is one of the easiest cars to maintain
FatRacecarMan@reddit
I've had VWs and BMWs and they have been on par with the service costs of other brands. Honestly, a Subaru in the family was the most expensive vehicle to get serviced I've ever owned.
ptinnl@reddit
Only in the US
gonefishing111@reddit
I like my simple 85 Mercedes diesels and my 86 Carrera. There is a guy on YouTube who refurbishes them. Unfortunately they’re upwards of $40k but would only need maintenance. All of the major systems are rebuilt with new OE parts.
Ridgeriversunspot@reddit
Yes, it really is true. Don’t buy a German car off warranty until you are a glutton for punishment. Or really rich but not frugal.
LastClassForever@reddit
I'll give you my readouts:
97 Jetta - terribly maintained by previous owner, awful ownership when I purchased it. 2011 Audi S4 - beautifully maintained by previous owner. Only issue in my 3 years of ownership was the front hood sensor which was replaced under warranty 2021 Audi q5 - bought off lease @ 9800 miles. Currently have 35,600 and 0 issues with regular scheduled maintenance. 2010 911 4S - previous owner didn't do a great job with maintenance. I purchased it and it's fantastic....no issues. Thai thing is bulletproof!
BillyGoatsCanRead@reddit
Short answer: Yes Long answer: Yeeeeeeeesssssss
Honestly the driving experience is phenomenal, but the maintenance is abysmal. My advice to you and everyone else is to buy a Toyota/Lexus or Honda/Acura and enjoy.
Existing-Muffin-6105@reddit
Yes
dannyocean2011@reddit
Lease one for a few years then dump it.
mynamesnotsnuffy@reddit
German cars are engineered to excel in very specific uses under very specific operating settings. In these areas, they excel. Outside of those areas, they will break down more frequently and usually will be more expensive to repair.
American cars are designed to be cost effective and powerful at the expense of some durability and, subjectively, aesthetics. They will break down somewhat less frequently than German cars, but be cheaper to fix.
Japanese cars are engineered to survive almost anything a person throws at them, and continue working. They will endure sparse oil changes, rough driving, and less premium gas, and will go for hundreds of thousands of miles on bare minimum maintenance.
It's a matter of cultural philosophy, when you get down to it. German philosophy is to make a tool to meet an expressed specific need. Japanese philosophy is to make the most durable, most conveniently maintainable tool for a general area of needs. American philosophy is to create a tool that is powerful and affordable, regardless of future maintence costs or general lifespan of the tool.
Naturally, all this applies in an "average driver" sense with an average maintenance schedule(oil changes on time, tire rotations, maybe some engine cleaning fluid now and then, etc).
If you're the type to tune your systems and tinker around with swapping parts for custom performance, none of this really applies, cause it'll be up to your skills and upkeep schedule to keep it running.
YetAnotherHobby@reddit
Yes.
https://youtu.be/iyWcDa8zFhQ?si=7Bz57ql1iHNOkQBa
Skip ahead to the 5 minute mark for the tl/dr.
See Car Wizard's channel for multiple examples of expensive fixes for common repairs on German cars. He does not even accept BMWs in his shop due to overly complex repair processes and expensive parts.
Buy German if you must, but go in with your eyes open. But if you are "saving your ass off" to buy a 3 year old Audi....better also buy a bike for when you are saving your ass off again to get the car out of the shop. Again.
just-looking99@reddit
I’ve had a few Mercedes Es and both went to 200k miles before I moved on to the next one. They were great cars and reliable. The issue is they have things in them that go bad that other cars didn’t have. One was a brake controller that only had a fixed number of cycles before it had to be replaced- luckily by time I had to do that there were rebuilt ones available and the brakes were better than any other car at the time so you do get what you pay for. And every car now has a silly amount of technology and safety items that make them more expensive and harder to work on. Buy what you like and can afford but do a little research before you do.
Ali3n_Armada@reddit
Best explanation I've heard is that Germans engineer the perfect cars with the understanding that the consumer will strictly adhere to the maintenance schedule.
Japanese engineer a car knowing the consumer will pay no attention to the maintenance schedule.
flushbunking@reddit
You need a garage and a mentality for enjoying getting ahead of deferred labor. Its a lifestyle. Choose well and have a good lifestyle. German cares do not fit American mentalities therefore they do not do well here.
carpediemracing@reddit
As a computer nerd guy, you probably enjoy tinkering with computers, or at least optimizing set up or things like that. But how would you feel about having to do that all the time on, say, a car? For me, I'm the opposite. I prefer to have my computer be a solid, reliable, zero-tinkering required appliance. I used to build my computers from scratch, I worked in IT, and I'm over it now. I do enjoy a bit of car tinkering, and have done various things to my car. And, as a combination, I even helped sponsor a coder writing open source code for flashing an otherwise unflashable ECU, then after the guy spent a couple thousand hours and a year and change writing the code, I downloaded and flashed an ECU for my car. However, I prefer to have a car that is appliance like, it just gets up and works when I want it to.
I would take an objective approach to answer your question. I don't know what country you're in, but in the US you can go to a CarMax and ask about the cost of an extended warranty. Last I checked (it was a while ago - 2016) they offered a 5 year warranty that covered the car until the odometer hit 150k miles. So basically 5yr/150k.
Cars I was looking at had 30-35k miles, cost about the same, and were all semi sporty cars that they had in their inventory (so VIN number etc was available). I was looking at a Honda Civic Si, Mazdaspeed3, Golf GTI.
Honda: about $1400
Mazdaspeed3 (turbo version of their Mazda3): about $1600
GTI: $5500, and warranty expires when the odometer hits 125k, not 150k.
I was shocked at the GTI cost difference. The person helping me out laughed and pulled up either a BMW 3 series or the small Mercedes, I can't remember now. $9900, to 125k only.
This is aside from regular maintenance.
Here's the thing. The extended warranty company sells those warranties to make money. It's not a charity, nor is it a "rip off" (I've seen multiple instances where CarMax sends a repair to a dealer under warranty and the warranty covers the entire cost). They charge enough to make their margin, whatever it is.
You could potentially use other extended warranty services to get an idea of repair costs over a 5 year period, but other than AAA there are no extended car warranty companies that I feel comfortable recommending.
Although anecdotally we had two VW at that time (Golf TDI, Jetta Sportswagen TDI - VW was buying them back due to the TDI thing) that cost a lot of money to repair, I was wondering if our experience was statistically significant or if we just had bad cars. Golf had 37k miles and already had about $3k of repairs that were technically out of warranty but the dealership covered it; Jetta Sportswagen had about 70k miles and $2.5k repairs that were not covered.
We ended up with a new Honda Civic (1.5 turbo, wife's daily and rock solid reliable), an older performance modified Nissan (the one I flashed the ECU on), and a large capacity tow vehicle (older Chevy Suburban, my appliance vehicle). They have been fantastic. We live in a place where it does snow in the winter and all the vehicles are 2WD. We have a driveway that maxes out at 21% (I measured - 7 in rise, 34 in run) and we have not had any issues related to drive traction.
slightly_drifting@reddit
All of the problems I’ve had with my bimmer are:
Valve cover replacement because you can’t just change the gasket: $1200
Oil pan gasket: $1200
Since manufacturers are retarded and no longer give you an e-brake handle, the motor that applies the e-brake died while it was engaged. Tow+repair = $800
These problems aren’t unique to a German car, but the way they need to be fixed are unique.
RequirementBusiness8@reddit
Generally, yes. I’ve had one that hadn’t been up until the last couple of years, around the 200k mile mark.
Parts of expensive. The way they are engineered it takes longer to work on. A good piece of advice working on German cars is “if it’s had to remove, you have disassembled enough things yet.” So you’ve got high parts costs and high labor costs.
Plus the increasing use of plastics (not just German cars). Making cars lighter and reducing the lifetime on those components. The parts either warp, crack, or get brittle and break.
wrmbrn@reddit
Yes
Brief-Banana-3075@reddit
If what you want is the reliability of a Toyota but something with nice amenities then maybe look at Mazdas.
The CX-5 Turbo especially is made in Japan, has been on the market for years and has a great track record. Very nice interior, great handling for an SUV and zoom zoom.
Educational_Swan_152@reddit
I'm not a mechanic but I've heard it like this.
Toyota designed their cars with the expectation that you'll miss an oil change or any other maintenance by a bit. Their cars still function even if you do
The Germans designed their cars with the expectation that you'll do your maintenance on time, every time. Assuming you do, the car will run exactly as expected.
Seems like buying a used German is taking a big bet on this, so I'd recommend you buy new if reliability is your main concern.
If you're trying to drop German $$$ though, maybe check out Lexus. My 2000 Lexus RX300 is a tank. 250k miles and the biggest job I've done on it since I got it at 100k is a serp belt replacement. Toyota reliability, luxury interiors, and I've heard they can be fun too
Key-Plan5228@reddit
I’ve owned plenty of American-made cars new and old and German cars new and old.
I get my cars checked regularly and change the oil every 5-7k miles.
They almost all last 200k+ miles.
The GM engines won’t. Old Chryslers are also garbage.
I’ll keep buying VW and Audi, they are the most fun and have good design, and hold their value.
Adventurous_Emu_9274@reddit
I’ve had German cars since I could drive at 16 and my family, even longer. My dad’s 06 e320 cdi was a tank. Had electrical problems towards the end but it was a tank. My brother 06 325i was a complete shit bag. Interior was falling apart but the motor/transmission were strong when we got rid of it with minor problems. My most unreliable car was my 08 535i, 2 water pumps, 2 oil filter housing gaskets, alternator, low pressure fuel pump, fuel injectors, ate spark plugs for fun. But it was modded and god damn it I miss that car. My 02 s4 I bought at 100k miles had some issues also, but was going strong till I wrecked it at 185k miles. Shittronic transmission (weaker than the manual). My g30 540xi 72k miles has had some minor issues like the DRL burning out and burning the light tube (easy fix). But I will always have a German car in my stable. If you keep up with the maintenance, do it preventively instead of after something goes wrong, they won’t let you down. Maintaining them isn’t cheap but they’re great drivers cars and a nice place to be inside.
banjoblake24@reddit
German cars are fine…sometimes the best. It’s the mechanics who may seem to be moneypits as they strive for a livable wage at your expense. If you buy a German car, get the service manual and read it. Plan to buy some tools and get a garage🧰
Evil_Dry_frog@reddit
I have put a good amount of money in my 911 over the seven years I’ve owned it.
In the 4 years I owned my F150, I’ve also put about the same per year.
The 911 is now worth $25,000 more than I paid for it. The F150… is not.
But ask me again when I have to deal with more scoring.
ButtholeSurfur@reddit
TBF 911s are kind of the exception to the rule for German cars. An M5 or S63 ain't doing that.
Hover4effect@reddit
Mine is going up in value, run of the mill Audi S5. Sought after model/spec I guess.
twosnailsnocats@reddit
I've had a 996 Turbo for almost 12 years now and they are selling for at least what I paid back then with similar mileage as I have now.
ClickKlockTickTock@reddit
My N52 E60 costs about the same as my 07 corolla. It depends greatly lol. Bmws straight NA 6 cylinders can be pretty reliable, as are their turbos.
Their parts are more expensive, but I've also just had them break less often. Im working on my toyota weekly at this point and the bmw has not been on a jackstand or set of ramps since I did the oil change a few month ago.
There are select jobs on each car that can be bank/time breakers. On mine, its the oil pan job. Most of the front suspension and subframe needs to come out to get the bugger off.
Crossinator001@reddit
I bought a second hand 2017 BMW 330i 2 years ago with 85k kms on it.
In that time I’ve had 3 seperate cooling system leaks and have needed to replace some plastic engine plugs as they were leaking oil.
I’m disappointed in the poor quality of the genuine bmw parts. They use plastic in components when other aftermarket parts use metal parts and are much cheaper. I’m not sure why European cars have a reputation for high quality when it seems to be the opposite engine parts.
Anyway I’ve spent about $2,000 on these repairs through my usual mechanic and using after market parts. If I were to get the repairs done through BMW it would’ve cost me $6000 with genuine BMW (substandard parts)
I will say though it is the best car I’ve ever driven. It handles like it’s on rails.
speaksoftly_bigstick@reddit
I have a sort of "unicorn" w204 C300 (2009) that's a manual transmission (in the US) with AMG package. I bought it used for $7500 a few years back. I have about $1200 in repairs to the radiator fan / housing due to road debris that had kicked up on the highway, but it's been really reliable otherwise. It's gonna need front suspension and some new brakes sooner than later so that will be pricey, I'm sure. I got a local shop that seems to be really familiar and comfortable with merc and is rated highly within my area so that helps a lot too.
I had them do a muffler delete and replace the resonators with a single cross pipe and now it sounds amazing.
It's comfortable to drive, with the added bonus of being "fun" when I want it to. It's no c43 or c63, but I get way better mileage out of it than my Tundra 5.7, and the fill up cost doesn't make me sweat either.
Oil changes aren't bad if I do them myself. Having them done at a shop, usually around $100 for full syn. Damn 3.0 takes like 8 qts!
wolksvegan@reddit
It’s not cheap or easy to maintain old cars, german cars have always been known as high maintenance. High maintenance and high mileage is high stress and big moolah. Parts availability is a pain sometimes, aftermarket stuff is expensive still. I still look back at my VW when I park her and crack a smile.
Sea-Seaweed1701@reddit
Never buy a volkswagen, audi, or porsche.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal&ved=2ahUKEwjJoKP469KCAxVSlWoFHWofDv0QFnoECBoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2kt2A1PJ3GmWLF5gxFCfKw
MagixTouch@reddit
To be fair all cars are money pits at some point. It is after all a depreciating asset.
canadianclassic308@reddit
Older Toyota's and Honda seem to appreciate in value
Hover4effect@reddit
My Audi is currently appreciating in value. Uncommon model with a 6spd manual. Demand is going up, supply is down.
_MoneyHustard_@reddit
If you mean a Honda S2000 then yeah, but that’s an anomaly, it’s become a classic since they don’t make them anymore. But generally this isn’t remotely true about Honda. They don’t even have anything close in terms of reliability of an older Tacoma or a 4Runner.
xSpeed@reddit
My 07 honda has 200k+ and I beat the piss out of it every time i get in. I guarantee you most tacoma and 4runner owners rarely, if ever, touch redline.
Arcane_Logic@reddit
200k+ is a real flex, lol. Also, engines are designed to hit redline safely.
My friend has a Tacoma, 3rz-fe with 430k. That's nothin. My 3rd gen 4runner has 303k, (3rz-fe). Again, that's nothin for these engines. I hit the redline a couple times a month..."Italian tune-up", whateva. The 5-speed manual transmissions on these trucks/SUV's are also durable as hell, Honda can't touch it.
xSpeed@reddit
Anybody can make a reliable big engine that produces no power. Congratulations
Arcane_Logic@reddit
Big engine? It is a 2.7L Inline-4.
Sounds like you are diverting the argument now.
SnowShoe86@reddit
K24 powered CRV, Accord, and Acura TSX has entered the chat
canadianclassic308@reddit
Man I seen a crx for sale the other day for 16k and it was nothing special
Own_Shine_5855@reddit
Bought my 2wd I4 Tacoma in 2008 for $14K. Had 300k miles and I was shopping for another car around 2021. Saw 2008 Tacomas at the same trim level with 70-100k @ $12k.
Bonkers.
Ok-Hurry-4761@reddit
My 2018 Tacoma's value is like a growth stock.
I don't get it. The new ones aren't that much more expensive. A used 2018 with low miles like mine goes for 35k. A new one can be had for 45k.
Smart-Difficulty-454@reddit
Same with my 04 Miata. It appreciates at about 8% per year. And it's wicked fun to drive.
Inspirice@reddit
Heh heh have you seen the reliability of the new ones? (yes they're being fixed by toyota but still, only time will tell)
kstorm88@reddit
14k in 2008 is much different than 12k in 2024. And 80k on a Tacoma is only like 1/4 used.
Own_Shine_5855@reddit
2008 $14k is about $20.5k in 2024.... Still though it's like a decade old vehicle.
I still sold mine for 1.5k in non-driving condition. Did zero maintenance other than oil, tires, brakes, sparkplugs and had to replace the u-joints on the drive shaft for 30 bucks. I didn't think I'll get a better miles driven to paid ratio lol.
kstorm88@reddit
Decade old, but relatively unused.
Diligent_Bath_9283@reddit
My mom totaled a Honda fit that I paid $4000 usd to get when covid made everyone quit driving. The insurance company estimated its value and paid $11,500 two years later. I was buthurt at first because I loved that car, but the more than double payoff fixed that pretty quick.
canadianclassic308@reddit
Yeah it's absolutely crazy
GoldenxGriffin@reddit
yes please give me a 250 000km corolla thats head gasket will go any second and will start burning through a quart of oil every 500 miles
canadianclassic308@reddit
Hey man just keep putting oil in er and she might get 350,000
InfiniteBlink@reddit
My F87 M2 Competition is still holding well and I bought it used for 43k
barrorg@reddit
Some pits are deeper than others, tho.
g_halfront@reddit
And have steeper sides
haditwithyoupeople@reddit
Of course. Like any consumable they depreciate. Some Porsches, Tacomas, and 4Runners tend to hold their value far better than other cars. A couple of Porsche models appreciate after they are purchased.
The depreciation on 4Runners and Tacomas may change with the new models. Not sure of it will hold going forward.
International-Ad3447@reddit
Yep unless you bought a shit box for 5-1500
dirty-E30@reddit
The way you combat that is by purchasing known reliable and desirable models at the bottom of their value trough, especially the models that already have a sub-culture attached. The sale value of most vehicles worth a damn resemble a bell curve
NoFilterMPLS@reddit
Of course there are exceptions but generally it’s:
Japanese cars rarely break and are cheap to fix
American cars often break and are cheap to fix
German cars often break and are expensive to fix
British cars are always in some state of brokenness
And Russian cars are ship anchors mislabeled and sold as personal automobiles
Hover4effect@reddit
My last 3 cars were VW/Audi and my wife is on her second VW. Her Eos had just under 200k and she is terrible with maintenance intervals. It was an older oil consumption issue model. So we had to top it up between oil changes.
I never found them to be that expensive to maintain, and I had some sporty models. They drove nicer, and were more comfortable than the cheaper brands.
Generally require premium fuel, and parts can be more expensive I guess. My VW gli had 205k miles on it and was 15 years old when I sold it. Really fun car, turbo, 6 spd manual.
My audi is an AWD, supercharged, 6spd manual coupe. Yes, it is more expensive than a honda civic or Toyota corolla, but it is dead reliable and amazing to drive.
Reasonable-MessRedux@reddit
Yes!!! Parts are outrageous
5knklshfl@reddit
Nothing more expensive than a cheap European car.
TransportationOk4787@reddit
I had a new VW Rabbit around 1981. Cured for life.
TheNeech@reddit
Short answer, yes.
Long answer: Everything is so over engineered that it makes almost every task 10 times more difficult and thus costs you more. At lease for some makes, the parts themselves are also over engineered and built much stronger than they need to be so the parts themselves are going to cost you more.
They are money pits, for sure.
8 year owner of a used land yacht that continues to baffle me with replacement needs.
mofapilot@reddit
I, as a German, have no good experiences with German cars. I only buy Korean or Japanese cars.
Larsent@reddit
I had an AMG and a S4. The Mercedes had annoying problems like the seat heater thermostat died so the seat got hotter and hotter and might have caught fire. A new seat was super expensive so we disconnected the seat heater. The electronic display had random faults. Fun to drive though! The Audi needed new suspension bushes soon after the 3 year warranty expired. Very expensive. One wheel rim buckled.
Massive depreciation.
Then one day I took the office Corolla for a service. It was so cheap compared to my German cars that I thought they had made a mistake. The Corolla never needed anything done. I now have a Subaru Forester, my fourth. It goes anywhere and does everything. Snow. River fishing. Back country roads. Highway. Town. A little slower than the German cars I had.
heartlesskitairobot@reddit
In the case of North American versions, there’s a lot more going on. Europe’s German cars seems be relatively ideal and Audi Volkswagen and Skoda and Seat are the most common cars in most of Europe, you see many diesel versions which are unstoppable and last for decades on end. With the higher powered turbo gas cars, there’s a lot of potential complications. This is maybe the reputation issue at hand. Service schedule is the key, change oil and fluids on time. Modern German cars are built to standards much higher than any Japanese car, interior, wheels, exterior, crash standards and power delivery. Even the Toyota Supra used a bmw engine 😂.
TurboJobo@reddit
Im my opinion they are a bit more expensive but if you work on them yourself they aint that bad especially if you go for the base model less things to go wrong
AngryTexasNative@reddit
I have an ‘05 BMW M3 that has only needed expensive oil changes, tires (finally aligned with less camber) and the occasional minor repair. It’s not a money pit.
My ‘14 Mercedes has been similar but with cheaper oil changes as long as I go to a qualified independent mechanic. The MB dealership is $$$$
curtmcd@reddit
My beloved E39 540iA started having low oil pressure problems. I paid $380 for a $9000 estimate at a dealer, and got two $5000 free estimates from indys. So I spent 3 months and $1800 acquiring tools and parts and researching it myself. I replaced my own timing chain guides and retimed the VANOS, etc. It did not fix the problem. I finally figured out the problem was the $41 regulator spring in the oil pump. Almost right away I traded it in for $3500 on a newer car, which I now regret doing. I had paid $1500 for a dealer to fix a control arm, and another $1500 for new tires, $400 because of deteriorating silicone, and another $100 for a ding removal.
But it showed me how little the pros know. Or rather, how absolutely little they care, and how they are gouging the hell out of every customer by an order of magnitude because they have more than enough desperate and/or rich people. I will never buy into that again.
KING_L00N@reddit
My 2003 beetle is far more expensive and complicated to work on than my 04 ranger. My 07 cop car. My 95 eagle talon. My 92 Celica.
I don't know why. But they are overcomplicated and I will never buy another eUrOpEaN auto ever again. Assembled in Mexico but designed by Satan
shysmiles@reddit
It depends on the owner and the car. As other said, what makes them different is parts can cost more - and maintenance can require special tools. Things often get broken just because someone messed up somewhere.
Expensive parts are not always bad when they are over-engineered. A part that cost 2x as much, but lasts 2x as long is actually not only more reliable but much cheaper because you save on labor which is expensive.
As far as picking the right car - A VW and an Audi are basically the same thing with different details - bigger engine and brakes, more insulation (quiet), more electronics. Doing a brake job on the VW version will probably cost half the price because they will be smaller rotors that weigh half as much. If you are worried about cost, you can get a german car just don't get a luxury german car.
Mechanic_Dad-23@reddit
Ok, from a guy who's worked on several cars from all of the above brands except for Merc, who's also brothers with a Mercedes Master tech, they are absolutely money pits. Unless it's a Benz, according to bro, don't even bother with a Mercedes if you want reliability. I've owned/worked on several BMWs (FIL was obsessed with BMWs and spent years telling me, so I gave BMW several chances) and every single one of them let folks down. 08 M3 ate a transmission and then ended up with so many electrical issues I gave up and passed up on that job. This is saying something considering I'd entirely rewired my 03 745i before that, built custom wire harnesses, and rerun everything because BMW engineers couldn't engineer mud from dirt and a water bottle if you gave them both. But they can make the water bottle covered in dirt fun while the dirt sticks. 2 different 2014 BMWs, 328d and 428i, both failed. 328d had cooling issues out of the wazoo, ended up destroying the motor; and the 428i presented electrical issues, a bad transmission, and later a bad motor, all before either one made it to 60k. Both were babied, and I mean BABIED because FIL didn't want to break the expensive cars. (Both were his) All maintenance followed the letter of BMW's recommendations. And those are just the most off-the-top ones I can think of, theres a lot more.
An old friend now hated person used to have an Audi A4, I believe a 2008. That thing was a pile of junk even when his dad owned it new. And just a reference for how expensive this heap got, $500 per caliper, homeboy needed all 4, and not one shop in the state had them. In fact, he found out he'd be better off shipping them overseas from Audi directly, and Audi wanted $1000 on top of the base price for the flipping privilege. While he dropped $3k on calipers from Audi just to have the stock set up, I dropped $3k on a full Wilwood kit, including calipers, lines, and master cylinder, for my Camaro. My Camaro still runs to this day with the new owner at 255k miles. The other guy's Audi lit itself on fire twice before his gf, my now SIL, wrecked the car drifting through an intersection on his suggestion. Again, there's a lot more, that one in particular is a good reference of how expensive a German pile of Sheiße can get.
And don't even get me started on VW. The number of Rabbits, Golfs, New Beatles, Jettas, and so on that I've either had the displeasure of replacing a motor on or have had to tell a customer they had a bad motor or transmission (primarily head gaskets but timing was a common issue too, and the syncros are dogshit) is ludicrous.
Very seldom have I ever met a truly reliable German car, and even rarer has it been anywhere near new.
If you want reliability with a better interior than Toyota, go get a Lexus. It's literally a Toyota with better interior/exterior. Just a luxury Toyota the same way Cadillac is luxury Chevy, Acura is to Honda, or Lincoln is luxury Ford. That and most Lexus vehicles won't break your bank on payments and will last longer than a year before any major issues, unlike most German cars.
Very seldom do I come across a bad Lexus, and even rarer that it wasn't just the owner neglecting the hell out of it.
CawlinAlcarz@reddit
Yes.
Source: My best friend owns a shop that specializes in German cars.
Ems118@reddit
So I’ve just had a timing belt kit including water pump and all filters changed. 2 drop links and an and sensor fitted for less than £700. Brakes fitted cost me £50. I drive a 2010 golf 1.6 diesel automatic. I don’t think it’s expensive or a money pit.
Uncle_Andy666@reddit
My dad has a volkswagon 2013 golf diesel i hate driving it i have a toyota yaris.
Mine is more cheaper to service at the mechanic his is more expensive.
But i will say he has 330 000km on his and its still ticking he services regular.
But it still has a check oil code.
He did have to change the water pump twice and 4 injectors & fix some leaks.
I always tell him to sell it.
Imsean42@reddit
I like the way the Mercedes are built
Healthy-Lifeguard-91@reddit
Eh, mine has been fine.
Mechanic_Dad-23@reddit
Won't even make it much past the header, they absolutely can be. For example, a kid I used to know owned a 2006 Audi A4, and needed brake calipers. Already $500 a caliper, then he found out they needed to be imported, which came straight from Audi and cost another $1,000 up front. He spent $3,000 on just calipers for that Audi, and this was in 2021. Meanwhile, I dropped $3,000 on a full Wilwood kit for my Camaro, came with Calipers, lines, and a master cylinder, and even a coupon to get some upgraded rotors, although I don't remember which company that was with.
When I had a 2003 745i, it cost $5,000 for a heavily used transmission, and BMW wanted something like $9,700 for a new one without shipping.
But something like a VW Golf was Hella cheap to get just about any part for. It depends wholly on what German car you buy.
Icy_Huckleberry_8049@reddit
German cars were built for people that had money not only to buy them, but to maintain them as well. Because in Europe only the wealthy can afford them.
In America, people don't even maintain their Chevy's, Ford's or Dodges, let alone German or other foreign cars.
zack9r@reddit
The problem with german cars is that while the cost of the car due to depreciation goes down, the expensive parts and intensive labor costs (with needing special tools) does not go down.
People fail to understand that because a car has depreciated 30-50%. The initial cost is lower but the maintenance cost does not go down, but in turn, goes up.
Its not uncommon for 1 owner vehicles to easily reach 150-200k miles, while (debatably) 3 or more owner vehicles struggle to reach 120+ without a major assembly replacement.
Captain_Aizen@reddit
If it's off warranty? Hell yes. It's only not a money pit if you're not the one flipping the bill.
rasslinjobber@reddit
All cars are lol
No-Walk9551@reddit
Also German vehicles are notorious for soy based wiring harness which is a haven for mice if they get parked for long periods
No-Walk9551@reddit
If you never ever ever ever ever ever miss a maintenance interval by even a minute they’ll do you very well. God forbid if a tire light comes on though bc there starts five thousand dollars in maintenance. Not bc the tire issue costs that much but bc it’s not 100% perfectly in sync and German cars don’t work well like that. Bit of an over statement but not by much. My boss lived in Germany for years and his wife is bit and raised in Germany and lives here as a us a citizen. She has two bmws and he always has something needing looked at and it never ends with them once it starts
climbamtn1@reddit
I've done bmw and Porsche, they are expensive to maintain BUT if you can afford it quite worth the experience in my opinion. My Camaro might have been as fast but not as fun to drive. My latest is infinity. Less maintenance and less expensive, better performance than my non German cars. A good compromise imo
Kaz_2024@reddit
YES!
Accomplished-Eye4606@reddit
Driving a 2017 x5 with 62,000 miles. Followed factory maint schedule exactly, except oil change every 5000 miles instead of 10,000. Lots of Colorado mountain driving and stop/go city traffic. Zero issues. Original brakes and suspension components still going strong. The transfer case was defective around 25K miles, dealer warrantied it next day, no hassles. I think this is solid reliability for any brand.
NothausTelecaster72@reddit
I would only buy one new and under warranty. My brother only drives and has only ever driven German cars. From a 60’s Big to a. 1985 944 to only BMWs now. I’ve never owned one. Did the Porsche experience but only new is how I would dare to buy.
1991Overdrive@reddit
German and British vehicles are needlessly complicated, I can count on 1 hand the number of German vehicles I would willingly own. I worked for nearly a decade in a shop that worked on every make & model, I worked on everything from Skylines to classic Porsche 911 to DeLorean DMC12 so it's a case of been there and done that. Nothing like ripping the entire bumper and front end on an Audi to replace a simple front end part, or $500 for a thermostat replacement when I can change the thermostat on my 2JZGTE Toyota that makes 4x the HP of the average Audi in 10 minutes with a $10 part. Never forget Mercedes and their famous biodegradable wiring harnesses in the 90s that failed prematurely and caused major electrical issues.
The funniest thing I saw out of 10 years in a shop that worked on every make/model was a LandRover Discovery II that cooked the headgaskets, we replaced the headgaskets then the transmission grenaded itself and I got the pleasure of replacing it (including the lovely drum brake E-brake design at the back of the transfercase, why use a traditional E-brake method right?) then the engine shat itself a few weeks after that, put a used engine in the thing and a week later the used engine shot a piston clean out of the block into the middle of the road. LandRover were officially the 1 vehicle that we would no longer do anything outside of an oil change or tires on.
TL;DR 15+ years as a mechanic has made me salty, old Japanese and American stuff is the best, anything Euro can eat shit
restlesslegs2022@reddit
I have a 2008 VW R32 currently engine out for a timing chain.
Sooooo…..
Tall_Recording_4325@reddit
No such thing as a used, cheap, BMW.
alexromo@reddit
if its a ford focus they are pretty bad. but you can find repair parts at junk yards and the repairs are fairly easily.
I had a bmw. gears grinded in the trans but a replacement was $600 and no junk yard had them because they sold for so much. and the u joints for the drive shaft had to be replaced but I had to buy the entire drive shaft because it wasnt a servicable part.
then the key cylinder broke and i could no longer start the car so i had to wire a starter switch....
fucken traded the bmw for a miata
somethingimadeup@reddit
Get a Lexus. Toyota parts and reliability with premium interiors.
Why are you comparing Toyota to bmw? They have a premium brand too. Lexus is the truth.
Flat-Art8080@reddit
BMW and Audi are horrible all the way along, Benz c class are junk but the e class and s class are pretty reliable. Audi are gorgeous tho.
GOOSEBOY78@reddit
MB have electrical gremlins. Ever since the W124 model. Because thats when the accountants took over and cheaped out on everything.
Unless you are a absolute MB geek/tech. You wont know what models to avoid as everybody just wants a cheap BMW so they can go drifting.
Apart from the IMS bearing issues and avoiding the 924/944 older porsches can be reliable. The higher the milage the better.
And audi/VW/porsche (VAG) just get expensive when they do break unless you get a boxter. Lots of info on how to fix them etc etc
silverbaconator@reddit
They are absolutely garbage plastic over complicated. If you play to own them for more than like 8 years from new you better be prepared for massive repairs that you can not DIY at all.
Material_Victory_661@reddit
Check out the Car Wizard on You Tube. But if Toyota just doesn't cut it, how about Lexus?
Icouldntbelieveit91@reddit
Yes
edtb@reddit
Yes. I hate my BMW. They were great till the warranty is out.
Sea_Researcher7410@reddit
My friend owns a mechanics garage specializing in BMWs. According to him, yes.
NoodlesSpicyHot@reddit
A $150 repair for a Ford, Chevy, Honda, or Toyota will be $600 for a BMW, Mercedes, or Audi. Here's a good example from a car pro mechanic with a strong social media following. https://fb.watch/vGI-uqk0kC/ From personal experience owning an Audi and then a BMW, I'll stand by my above statement after owning both a Ford and a Honda. I now have Honda, Toyota, Acura, and Lexus in my driveway and spend zero on unexpected maintenance items with 3 of the 4 well over 100k miles.
Supertrapper1017@reddit
Yes.
Cthulhu4change@reddit
Americans make cars for money, we engineer things to break or be hard to repair by yourself. Japanese make cars for morons because they know we won't take car of them right so they need to be bullet proof. Germans make cars for Germans. If you follow service correctly and precisely, they will be every bit as reliable as anything else. Getting one that's used and abused and it's going to punish you for it.
Mysterious_Hamster52@reddit
The problem with german cars are the first owner never does maintenance when they should cause its so expensive, the second owner sells when the cars fail , the 3rd owner thinks its a pos cause its never had maintenance, plus german and euro cars are always on the cutting edge of tech so when something breaks ....its expensive
Open-Ad3395@reddit
I have a bmw 3 series awd and a Buick enclave . Personally I got the bmw first because of certain reasons and needed a vehicle quickly, it is a 04 model and was needing a lil tlc when I first got it, to the tune 1500 for changing the awd fluid and replacing seals and doing the brakes all at same time. I went yo a reputable foreign car mechanic a lot of people recommended and compared to the dealer a block away , I am glad I did . The dealer quote was about 2000 more for same job everything. I’ve went to dealer once and that was replacing the airbag recall even as old as the car was. But after getting it properly fixed it’s a dream to drive. Now onto the Buick, was a die hard ford and dodge ram fan, got the Buick for the simple fact I have an aging mother(84 yrs old) and I drive the enclave everywhere for her to be able to get in and out without a problem and for longer drives its a beautiful and comfortable vehicle that you don’t realize you went that far. But Buicks only complaint is the way the oil filter is situated it makes it the common man can’t hardly change it
Msdmachine@reddit
I love mine Benz, it's pricey to replace stuff but will worth it once it's fixed.
rvlifestyle74@reddit
Yes. I fix cars for a living, 23 years experience. They are indeed money pits.
Lie-Pretend@reddit
Yes
mrcheesewhizz@reddit
I’ve owned 4 German vehicles, 2 Audi’s and 2 bmw’s. “It depends” is 100% accurate, but the risk can be mitigated.
First off, accept that in most cases you are going to pay more for basic maintenance like oil, brakes and tires. You can reduce a lot of these costs immensely by doing the work yourself. These vehicles are also not forgiving when it comes to skipping scheduled maintenance, but you can budget for that in advance. Also, avoid the dealerships and find yourself a good Indy/local mechanic.
Secondly, unless you know exactly what you’re doing DO NOT buy a cheap or even reasonably affordable one off Facebook marketplace. They’re a “deal” because the previous owner saw the repair bill coming and decided to dump it on some unlucky fool rather than fix it. If you do decide to buy a German vehicle either buy new or if buying used take your time, be picky, and make sure there is a GOOD warranty on it.
Lawineer@reddit
Yes.
Mission_Can_3533@reddit
German cars are fine, just get rid of it once warranty expired.
wheretheinkends@reddit
Maybe. It boils down to their philosophy*. Which I will contrast with japense (toyota more specifically).
Toyota believes that most people will skip maintenance and go.over oil changes. So they designed their cars to be able to run reliably even if maintenance is skipped or prolonged.
German manufacturers believe that you purchased a complicated machine with many different systems and they gave you a maintenance schedule in the booklet based of what their engineers determined that needed to be done at certian intervals for the machine to run properly. Typically if you do the maintenance when you are supposed to the machine will run properly. If you dont it wont. They believe that someone who pays an enormous about of their income for a machine should perfom the proper maintenance at the proper intervals.
So, if you are the type not to or put off maintenance, dont buy a german car.
sps49@reddit
This is not true. You absolutely need to do basic maintenance on a Japanese car. The difference is that they do much better quality control, and use parts that are less likely to fail.
wheretheinkends@reddit
Of course. You need to do maintenance on anything. Point is toyotas philosophy is they build their cars with the ideas that people will skip maintenance or delay maintenance (like go over on oil changes, etc) whereas the german philosophy is that "we told you to change it at X milage."
And yes I agree Japanese cars (toyota specifically) in general over engineer their cars.
Im not saying the Japanese expect people to do no maintenance, they just build their cars with the idea that most people dont do the maintenance on time, and often go way past what the scheduled maintaince instructions state when to do what.
Cantseetheline_Russ@reddit
They are not… when people say that people with those cars “have more money than sense” they just mean that people have more money than them and are jealous. Yes, my BMW’s have a higher cost to own… they are also a DRAMATICALLY different driving experience. They are performance/luxury vehicles and significantly more complicated and expensive to fix or maintain, but generally, if you stick to the maintenance schedules it’s nothing crazy. I’m happy to pay for the experience. I get excited to drive my car EVERY SINGLE TIME I drive it and I’m on my third BMW.
Really what a lot of these people are hearing is expensive maintenance and repairs, but generally, if you can truly afford it, you don’t really care. It’s all relative.
isthis_thing_on@reddit
Learn to do your own maintenance and it's a whole lot cheaper.
sps49@reddit
You lose value on a BMW if you can’t show that you took it to the dealer for all the maintenance.
isthis_thing_on@reddit
That's why you start with a fully depreciated one 😂
Unable_Basil2137@reddit
You either pay for the maintenance which is expensive or you pay for the fixes if you don’t do the maintenance which is also expensive.
sps49@reddit
And both are more expensive with German cars.
User_R60@reddit
So, it depends.... Look the lowest mileage that fits within your budget, that minimizes the chance that the maintenance schedule has been neglected. Next, if you're looking at over say, 50,000 miles, you want to look for a car that comes with full service records, make sure it's been well cared for and that anything it needed was addressed. Look for a car that someone was obsessive about. Make sure the car hasn't had any major mechanical failures, especially if it's a Mini or BMW. If it's had to have the same part replaced 2 or 3 times and it has less than 100k miles on it, pass and keep looking, that indicates the car was driven hard or neglected. German cars don't take abuse well like a Toyota. If you can find a BMW or Mini that matches the aforementioned, you may have found a good one. There are cheap replacement parts available for BMW and Mini, but don't expect them to last as long if you use them. As an added bonus to BMW and Mini, if you're a computer nerd, you can have all sorts of fun customizing your car through coding.
PCOON43456a@reddit
Say it for the people in the back: yes.
swissarmychainsaw@reddit
Just cross reference the price of some part on different cars you are interested in:
Water Pump
Alternator
Fuel Pump
Power Steering pump.
Front brake rotors
Any car you "keep up with maintenance" is reliable. But Toyota reliability means literally replacing fewer parts compared to a mercedes.
The index your looking for is cost of ownership, or cost per mile.
German luxury cars are for people that have some more disposable income and won't shy away from a four thousand dollar repair bill ( I made up that number).
I've owned plenty of 20 year old european cars. I would never do that if I had to pay someone else to work on them.
cngo_24@reddit
The people who say "yes" never owned a german car, and if they did, they neglected maintenance or bought the problematic models.
I owned a 2013 335i xDrive that was modified (it made 420awhp/438awtq, upgraded turbo) and I drove it to 250k miles before I sold it for a 2018 340i xDrive that had 27k miles on it.
The 335i never left me stranded and all I did for it was basic oil changes, brakes, filters, and gaskets. I tracked it every year and drove it in -30C winters. It still had its original water pump when I sold it.
My current car (340i) is modified as well (433AWHP/521AWTQ) and I've put about 20k miles on it and it had one issue (passenger door latch sensor failed) which was a 200$ part, but other than, brake change and oil changes.
Stop bringing the car to the dealer for everything, learn about your car, and buy the parts off the internet yourself, you save yourself thousands for doing things on the car that takes under an hour on your own, and the parts you buy off the internet yourself, you save 50% or more than buying at a dealership.
sps49@reddit
lol
People who know owners of German cars know well enough without having to own one themselves.
KitchenPalentologist@reddit
We owned a couple MBs, the GL320 CDI was amazingly reliable, until it wasn't. At \~100,000 miles, it started costing 10,000 per year for issues. Steering wheel position sensor, steering rack, transmission, airbags (yes, I did those myself with arnots), water pump, etc. And we followed the service intervals perfectly, all dealer serviced.
Those things might not be that unusual for a 100,000 mile vehicle, but the cost for those repairs cost WAY more than similar repairs for a Sequioa or Explorer, or whatever. That said, the MB was way nicer, too.
_k_b_k_@reddit
I'm not one to bash german cars...but you've owned two BMWs, this is anecdotal evidence at best.
cngo_24@reddit
It's legit evidence, both cars I'm not just driving it like a grandma, I've modified it, I've tracked it, there's considerably more wear due to that outside the norm, and there hasn't been issues.
both cars were reliable and my current still is.
ccache@reddit
"It's legit evidence,"
No it's not, that's like doing a poll on voting when only talking to two people. So I guess the dems win at 100% because two said they're voting dem.
Almost every mechanic will tell you it's a high risk. Most people don't seem to understand that though, it's not just one way or the other. Here's a better way to put it, there's a cloud storage service that put out failure numbers on hard drives. I can't remember the exact numbers but western digital was at about 3% after a certain period, lets say two years. Seagate was at about 10-15%, and some other brands were even higher (lets say 20%). So in this case Toyota/Honda could be the 3%, which means some do still fail but most are fine. BMW could be the 20%, much higher risk but you could say most are fine. Now of course I'm using the numbers as an example and they don't apply to vehicles, but just because you didn't get one of the bad ones doesn't mean quite a few of them won't fail early.
It is a high risk, but OP could get lucky like you did.
cngo_24@reddit
depends on the mechanic. dealership mechanics will say one thing, while a performance/tuner shop mechanic will say another.
I drive my car outside the norm of ownership, and purposely beat on it and as you can see, no problem.
the B58 itself is a reliable motor, there's a reason why toyota adopted it for the supra.
Prestigious-One2089@reddit
I've now owned my MINI for the last 7 years and have done nothing more than the scheduled maintenance and she has been perfect. that being said the scheduled maintenance is more than what my civic needed before the MINI. but the MINI is much more fun.
fuckingsame@reddit
If you do the maintenance, you’ll be aite.
DrLegzz@reddit
Yes
Which-Operation1755@reddit
No. I’ve owned them and less expensive than Japanese counterparts.
DoubleDareFan@reddit
usually followed by someone else saying they totally self-destruct at 100k.
Like this?
Russ_T_Shakelford@reddit
I remember an engineer giving a reasonable coherent explanation in the differences in engineering between German cars (money pit) and more reliable Japanese cars.
Basically speaking, German cars are often well engineered to meet very tight specifications. German engineers expect you to follow strict maintenance to keep the car on the road. This usually (remember this is a generalization) means that if you do things like skip certain services or increase the intervals that you will have problems. Think of them as finely honed chef’s knives.
Japanese cars are well engineered, but were designed to have a bit more leeway in terms of intervals and requirements to keep them running well. Pair that with their own unique taxation requirements and you get small, efficient cars that will run on literally no oil. They are meat cleavers. They both do the same function, but one requires extra care to keep being an effective tool.
AMC_TO_THE_M00N@reddit
Audi, bmw, Mercedes-Benz, are money pits
nylondragon64@reddit
That is the problem. The maintenance is costly.
Any car today will last if you take care of it and don't beat on it. I like Subaru. Fun to drive. Great in bad weather. Safety very high. And off lease less than 20k mile pretty affordable. Jmo others might like other vehicles.
chris14020@reddit
2008 Audi A4 x3.
Yes.
Yes.
If you can work on your own, it's expensive. If you can't, it's insane. Keep in mind that two of mine came with blown up engines because the oil pumps failed at \~125k. This is not uncommon at all. Expect 100-200k TOPS unless you spend huge money doing 'maintenance' that both will be more expensive than other brands and also isn't likely to be necessary on your good (read: Toyota) brands.
Timing chains. Failed rings (Audi's official stance is '1 quart of oil every 1000 miles' is the threshold for it being a problem they will address - picture going through 5+ extra quarts of oil between oil changes on a car with <100k miles!). Failed turbos. Carbon cleaning. Every damn engine component being plastic and failing. Every bolt is TTY (one-time use). More control arms and suspension fuckery than a goddamn octopus. Parts that wear out and NEED replacing is the standard, not just 'getting progressively slightly crappier'. Problems that aren't 'fix it when it fails', but rather 'fix it before it fails or your car will be effectively totaled'. And it WILL fail.
They're made to be 'nice', not reliable. They're a BIC lighter: They're made to work for a certain period and they do it well. Then, very suddenly, they don't, and you throw them out. They're like a trial subscription: They come with a lot of neat features, and if you like them, you can buy them again next year when they stop working.
"The only thing more expensive than a new German sports car, is a used German sports car."
But ay, the same engineering that lost two world wars can't suck, yeah?
Take the advice everyone else has on the matter. It's not widespread knowledge for no reason.
Fabulous_Force9868@reddit
If you can afford the regular maintenance they're not bad if you can't afford it then it'll be a money pit
freshly_ella@reddit
I'll just give my experience and I see it matches some of your opinions.
I've owned well over 20 cars. My entire friends circle have been "car people" for 30 years. We've owned them all, mostly used with over 100k miles.
Every single GM car I've owned from the 90s was... fine. They lasted 150k miles. They were a bit boring but tried. Every GM car from 2000-2010 was boring as hell. Every one newer than that was a money pit.
Every single Toyota I owned was incredible for reliability. But as you said, boring. The exception to that was a Scion TC. That was fun. But they don't do well past 200k miles.
Honda. Oh Honda. Besides the civic "which is a great car" they were almost all so fun to drive. Way more fun than their numbers should lead them to be. You Have to test them though. They're light. That often means a little sacrifice in the comfort department. You often have to sacrifice mpg and a little fun for comfort in a Honda or vice versa. But, they All last. Damn neer a good as Toyota. Toyota, Acura, Lexus, Honda. Just do the fairly affordable maintenance and they're great. Just be sure to look for the rare known issue in random models online and test drive for an hour for comfort check. Acura stands out as great in everything, and the maintenence isn't usually worse than a normal Honda. Similar or same drive-trains.
To your question now. German. I'll never own another as my main car. I'll never own a turbo one period. Money. Pit. Volkswagen can be fun. Mercedes are nice. Here's the problem, and mechanics often agree. People buy these damn things but can't afford to both buy them and take care of them. Parts are high. Labor is often high and dealer only if you want piece of mind. They get neglected. Then you buy one used that just got a major issue fixed with 2 or 3 other ticking time bombs somewhere waiting to screw you or off $$$$.
Then there's Subaru. I'm afraid of those damn things. They'll make the same exact car for 10 years. 3 years will be fantastic, 4 are junk, and the others is a roll of the dice. Again, often neglected as well. Not to mention the common issues caused by people not buying 4 brands new tires and doing an alignment every time there an issue on many of the AWDs.
TLDR... I would forget German cars, and look for an Acura or possibly a sporty Lexus. If that's our your range go drive every Honda model on a given lot.
Oh yeah. Ford. I have a 2010 focus in the driveway. Heart car. But after my dumb ass bought a 2017 focus... I'd walk before buying another Ford even at half price. Fk Ford.
coreytrevor@reddit
Yes
Competitive_Life_207@reddit
BMW 100% I had one ....it was older. My doctor friend had one but got rid of it too expensive he said. My best friend purchased one for his wife. Has Porshè many cats and trucks but got rid of it due to high maint costs. Still if one has the means .....incredible machines.
shadowtrickster71@reddit
yes very high maintenance which is why my next car will most likely be Toyota/Lexus or Honda/Acura
sdtopensied@reddit
It’s not that they’re necessarily money pits. They can be if they haven’t been well maintained, which is often the case. But the real problem, as least in my experience, is that parts pricing seems arbitrary and often defies logic. I paid $300 for a plastic interior part and a few months later paid $250 for CV joints. Never again.
Arrgh98@reddit
2013-2016 Mercedes E350 is solid. If an issue comes up it’s expensive but it doesn’t very often.
TurboF20-2@reddit
There's nothing more expensive than a cheap German car.
BengalBuck24@reddit
I have a 2016 VW GTI, once I left the dealership, it has never been back. I do my own oil changes, etc, but other than that, nothing bad has happened to it, and it is a blast to drive.
SnooHamsters5766@reddit
My wife daily drives her 2012 E350 at 185k miles. Extended family runs similar second gen ML350s, all with higher mileage. Sure they all have random check engine lights on and things don’t always make sense, but they just keep starting and keep running with routine maintenance and no major breakdowns….we’re fans of a well kept 3.5
Neil12011@reddit
It’s true that they are generally more expensive to maintain. I own probably 3 of the most notoriously unreliable vehicles on earth:
Jeep Wrangler Audi RS5 Jetta TDI (daily beater)
They all been rock solid, and all have been maintained and taken very good care of.
I think German cars are designed with VERY stringent maintenance schedules in mind, whereas Japanese vehicles (some anyway) are designed as if the only thing the customer will do is put gas in it. Basically, bulletproofed against customer negligence. You definitely pay a premium on luxury vehicles, and I’ll continue to say that Audi’s are great, as long as you have a warranty.
2AWesterner@reddit
My W140 S600 (gen 2) with the 6.0 and M117 transmission has been very reliable for the last ten years of my ownership.
fred9992@reddit
I have owned 10 BMWs. Amazing cars / SUV’s. I leased until 10 years ago. I bought a 328xi wagon and my wife had an x5. The x5 cost an average of $8k / yr in maintenance from 60k miles. Thats average! One year I spent $7K on a bunch of gaskets and seals and the engine immediately seized, costing another $13K for a used engine. I thought my 328 would be reliable and inexpensive but at 100k miles, it needs about $10K in maintenance. It’s mostly gaskets and seals. The thermostat is the latest issue. Unusually change thermostats myself. Most cars cost less than $100 and it’s about 30 minutes of work. Not BMW. $1600. So I bought a Tesla and the only BMW I’ll drive will be under warranty or an old one before they were banana to repair.
trophycloset33@reddit
Only BMWs, Mercedes and Audis
Complete-Dot6690@reddit
Yes…
Rlol43_Alt1@reddit
I work at a carwash, so I deal with cars of every type. The Euros typically are bought brand new by richy rich at $90-120k, and sold around 30-40k miles. That person drives it to the first major repair and sells it for about 20-40k, typically at the 60-90k mile range. Then, some idiot buys it for $10,000 and at that point they're rust buckets with squeaky wheels that are caked with burnt on brake dust.
Idk which category you fall into, but it's better to just buy a new Ford at this point. At least you know the problems you'll have with it going in, and the repairs are relatively cheap.
If you don't fuck it up, a 5.0 F150 will last around 15-20 years of daily driving.
MoSChuin@reddit
I drove an 05 Dodge Grand Caravan. Drove it for years, and it was good. The rust started getting bad, and the transmitted started having issues, so I got a 2018 Mercedes Metris. I bought it with 59K miles, it now has 100K miles.
I do maintenance as scheduled. I've had zero issues other than wear items (brakes, tires) and those repairs cost about the same as the Dodge. I made a mistake and a heavy wood gate swung into the outside mirror. Completely my fault so I can't blame the car. I ended up having a new mirror installed, which cost me $1021.00. Out of curiosity, I called for a bid on a Grand Caravan mirror. The bid after installation was $950. So basically the same, apples to apples. Yes, there are more aftermarket options on the Dodge, but they shake, so I wanted a real one.
There is something that goes wrong with every car. The Metris is based on a European commercial chassis, so it's built tough. 6000 lbs towing capacity, 2100 lbs payload capacity. Strong engine, and a suspension engineered with the autobahn in mind, so it feels like a German car.
Neither of my Mercedes purchases have been money pits, but in fairness, the Sprinter was purchased new and only has 67K in miles. The 04 C230 I traded in for the Sprinter wasn't a money pit either. The bodies of that generation had rust issues, and I traded it in just as the rust was starting. So research the cars before you buy, and do the maintenance. Imports in general need more maintenance, and suffer if you don't do it.
alwayssettling@reddit
There is a reason any type of gear head will talk shit on a make brand etc. mine just made me some mula. And that’s 6.0 powerstrokes lol
gta370@reddit
Bmw has improved significantly in terms of reliability.
Anything that comes with b46/b48/b58 is solid. The transmission is ZF so no issues there either as long as you change the fluid every 30-40k miles.
You can look into g20, g30, LCI 3 & 4 series and pretty much anything else that is 2017 and newer that has the b series engine.
The bad reputation usually comes from v8s as well as some other models that had many issues, but if you know which models to avoid you’re good.
Also, most opinionated people about BMWs are usually the ones that never owned one or the ones that didn’t do their research before purchasing one and bought an unreliable model. I had over 10 BMWs and all treated me fine, I currently have 2 e34s with the 2.5 engine and 2 g30s with the b46 engine and I am very happy with them.
Elliot4004@reddit
You can have a ‘fun’ car or you can have a reliable car, but you can’t have both
9mmway@reddit
I bought a VW once.... Worst car I ever had. Not dependable, not safe
The fucking windshield wipers quit working a snow storm! Don't they get snow in Germany???
R2-7Star@reddit
I own a twenty five year old Porsche, a 2018 VW and 2024 VW. I've put a lot of money into the Porsche but I don't think that's bad ; it's twenty five years old. The 2018 VW has 115,000 miles and the only thing it's needed other than normal maintenence was a water pump.
Sure_Difficulty_4294@reddit
My girlfriend’s Mercedes C-Class is. The very nanosecond that thing pulls into the shop you can bet she’s dropping $1,000 minimum on whatever it is. Not to mention it’s such a headache to find a mechanic. She has to drive it all the way to the dealership. That’s why I keep it Japanese.
Wolfica95@reddit
As a Mercedes service advisor, I’d suggest, take the age of the vehicle and multiply by 1000$ expect to spend that much a year. If you do that, it will run flawless for 1,000,000 miles. The other thing about a 3-4 year old Mercedes is the electronics are going to go out…
AutomaticRevolution2@reddit
As someone that has owned 2 Volkswagens and an Audi, yes. If you don't drive them much. Both my Volkswagens had over 200k on them. I drove 1000-2000 miles a month for work. I didn't give them any time to nickel and dime to death. I replaced the clutch once in my last Golf, not long before I sold it. We'll see about the Audi.
haroldljenkins@reddit
Old school VW beetles would run forever
dry-heat-hot@reddit
Everything is more expensive, everything is more complicated, however if you turn your own wrench it's not bad. I'll give you an example. a 4 corner brake job (4 rotors and pad sets) on a 17 Mercedes C300 (AMG pkg). Would come in at around 1800-2200 at an Indy. The OEM parts from FPC or autohausaz are around $750. Still expensive but no where near what a mechanic would charge. They also horribly upcharge the parts. So just parts on that bill would be over 1200. Labor another $1000. Those are like Japanese car dealer service prices. You don't even want to know what an MB dealer would charge.
Notthatsalem2@reddit
I have an Audi. I will say the one money pit has been the windshield. It’s thin and fragile. My car is almost 2 years and I’m about to replace the windshield for the second time.
18731873@reddit
Yes. Avoid Europe, take a look at Mazda?
KB9AZZ@reddit
If you don't drive them their fine.
J0b_1812@reddit
Parts and labor. Money pit Parts. High but not insane
Useless you plan on fixing it yourself you're going broke fast. Basic oil change and fuel filter on a BMW is $$$$ and requires tools and experience that isn't common shop knowledge in America. So unless you do your own service and repair yes it is
ToasterBath4613@reddit
I drove Audi’s exclusively from 99-24 and I can say that the quality sharply deteriorated after about the 2008 model years. Certainly after Audi got out of Motorsport. Of the last 3 models I owned, 2 Q7’s were lemon law’d (1 hvac related and the other electronics) and the A4 avant had the engine rebuilt due to an oil consumption issue at 72k. I sold my last one earlier this year and I’m done. Audios!
anonymouslyHere4fun@reddit
YESSSSS !!!
Practical-Giraffe-84@reddit
In my op as a kid I owned a 86 VW rabbit. Every nut and bolt was unique. Like almost none of it was metric. Or sae. Was major pia to work on.
DependentArm3391@reddit
Yes
turkey_sandwiches@reddit
Yes, they absolutely are.
Sad_Analyst_5209@reddit
My son drove his Mitsubishi Eclipse for 10 years until it fell apart. Now a lawyer and he had spent two years in Germany while in the Air Force so he bought a used BMW i510. It literally spent more time at the dealer then his drive way. One day he was driving it and the dash icon of a car up on jacks lit up. He limped it into a Ford dealership. It needed an entire new brake system. He traded it in on a Focus Sport. It was just as noisy as the BMW, rode just as rough, but the A/C always blew cold air and it always ran. Drove it for over five years until he was T boned at an intersection. He walked over to a nearby Nissan dealership and bought a Nissan Rogue.
6-20PM@reddit
My last BMW built a 21 page service history before I sold it. Never experienced anything like that again with wither my Toyota or Tesla vehicles.
clutchied@reddit
The dealers have gotten really absurd with repair costs....
I do all the work myself and it can still be pricey just for parts.
Most people think having to spend a thousand here or there is WAY too much but that's just part of life with a BMW.
It's rewarding to drive one but they're performance oriented and things wear out and have to be replaced.
Cczaphod@reddit
I've had a pair of German cars bookending a pair of Volvos. The Volvos were cheaper to maintain, but less fun to drive. My Mercedes didn't last much more than 100k miles, while my Volvo approached 200 (second volvo was totaled). My current Audi Q7 just passed 100K miles, ok on maintenance so far, not as bad as the Mercedes, but worse than the Volvo.
Audi is the most fun to drive out of the bunch.
KennyLagerins@reddit
Yes. When even a regular oil change is $250+, they’re expensive. They need regular maintenance and parts can be pricy. If you ignore the maintenance schedule, it’s going to be even worse.
Sea-Woodpecker-610@reddit
Naw, under 60,000 miles they’re great…..once they go over that, run.
skidplate09@reddit
I've had good luck with the majority of my 25+ German vehicles I've owned over the years. They definitely take more looking after than your typical japanese car. Although now that the Japanese manufacturers are catching up on technology you see that they're dealing with the same type of stuff that German cars have had to deal with for a long time.
Guapplebock@reddit
Over engineered, complicated with expensive parts and service. Fuck the krauts.
LaOnionLaUnion@reddit
Not if you do the work yourself, do regular maintenance, and are excellent at sourcing parts. 😂
Car people are more likely to know and do those things
KarateMusic@reddit
A dealer oil change on my Acura TL costs $75.
The oil for my 911 costs $105 per oil change (it’s a project car and I like working on it, but if I went to the dealer it would be north of $400).
That’s just one example. However, it’s reliable as shit so I don’t have to do many repairs, especially since the biggies (AOS, IMS) have been done already.
Outside_Squirrel_839@reddit
B M W. BROKE MY WALLET. AUDI. ANOTHER UNDERPOWERED DEMONIC INVENTION. VOLKSWAGEN. VIRTUALLY WORTHLESS. ALL GREAT CARS FOR A SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME.
nolo4@reddit
Dude get a GTI :)
nolo4@reddit
So have had a 1983 vw rabbit diesel, 2x 2010 vw golfs and now have a gti. If you service them at the dealer be ready to get royally taken advantage of. If you find a good small independent vw specialist and go there for all your non warranty work, ie oil changes, brakes, shocks etc. I find they been great cars. Im sure they cost more than a honda or toyota to maintain but not crazy like people think. And wayyy more fun to drive.
nolo4@reddit
I have heard audis and bmws are really expensive to maintain though
X919777@reddit
Yes
Drash1@reddit
I had an old BMW 5 series. Transmission error. Took it to get looked at by a friend who had the proper scan SW. The choice was a faulty transmission or bad brake light module. $7K or $2K respectively and it would cost two hours labor to find out. Since it was my beater car I cleared the code (would pop back on anywhere from a day to a couple weeks later each time) and sold it before it popped up again.
chumlySparkFire@reddit
They are worse than that. Stay away.
suckmeupp@reddit
For European ranking of reliability goes like this Volvo, Volkswagen, Audi, BMW , Mercedes
Do what you will with that info
You want something fun comfortable and almost guaranteed reliability.
It's better to go Japanese
Bryanmsi89@reddit
Yes. Service is expensive and parts are even more expensive. Skipping service will cause a need for more expensive parts.
CaterpillarSoggy7158@reddit
As an autobody tech, german cars are just difficult to work on. It not hard, but there is a process to EVERY job. Even something as simple as taking a headlight out requires 6 different parts to be removed😂 theyre a pain, but the germans have their own organized chaos.
Far_Sprinkles_5506@reddit
If you know the engines well then you can easily avoid the problematic ones for example most LCI 320d have a very problematic engine due to timing chain failure, usually this is because they were neglected early in their life by the accounting departments deciding on a 15 or 20k service plan to make it more appealing to company car buyers - with proper maintenance the chain is not as big an issue as everyone makes out but once it goes you might as well do an engine swap as it’s a full rebuild which is around £1500 minimum anywhere at the moment. On the other hand get an earlier model 06 or earlier and generally you can get 250k out of them without any major spend (again if it’s been maintained well in its early life it will last longer but these engines can take more of a beating.) Generally they can be huge money pits mostly due to parts and labour costs (which is why nobody wants to buy old cars anymore) BUT if you know what your doing and you know which ones to buy and which ones to avoid they can be a real bargain especially given the fact the very reliable 2.1 cdi Mercedes engine c220 (almost bulletproof except for injectors) can be bought for under £1500 for a nice specced up automatic example (32k+ new) at which point even if it goes wrong a few months down the line your still gonna pull back £500 in scrap rather than throw money at it, you can just go out and buy another one.. Once you buy enough rubbish you quickly learn how to buy a good car.. As always, experience is always the real teacher..
Subject-Ad-8055@reddit
No gm products are far worse..
HUSTLEDANK@reddit
Yes.
jbice0528@reddit
I use to want a BMW 325i so bad when I was a teenager. Then I worked on one one time. That experience changed my mind.
jeffislouie@reddit
Used German cars are usually money pits. Parts are expensive. Labor too.
A buddy has an old range Rover that has been stupid reliable, which is insane as he's currently pushing well over 200k miles. He is meticulous about service, but still.
It very much depends on the car and how well it's been maintained.
UsuallyMoist5672@reddit
We have 3 mercs, down to 1 vw and 1 Audi. Yes, they're expensive to maintain but I feel like they have also been more reliable. We had a 2009 Audi A6 wagon, 3rd owners, had been owned and maintained by car guys, we changed the timing belt at like 260k, had obnoxiously placed radiator hoses blow (one that goes through the firewall to the heater core) but we sold it a few years ago and got a q7 TDI. The A6 is still running like a dream, they've done basic maintenance. Our q7 has a minor leak in the rear main seal, it's an engine out repair and our friend who is the local master mechanic at the Audi shop advised to just watch the oil levels as it's not worth the expense to fix. I had an 01 Passat before that, and my husband built many air cooled bugs and early Audi's. My biggest piece of advice is to research the shit out of any car you're going to be considering, know what the known common issues are, know how it's been maintained, know the maintenance schedule. Don't buy something you can't afford to maintain because if you slack on maintenance you will for sure pay for it later.
Middle-Jackfruit-896@reddit
As a past owner of German cars and Japanese cars, I would say that parts for German cars are usually at least 50 percent mor expensive, and they are more difficult to fix and service. In a Toyota or Subaru for example, changing a headlight bulb may literally be a 1 minute job. On a VW or Audi, it might be 45 minutes because you need to remove a bunch of stuff and then contort to access the bulb. There is a philosophical difference in how the cars are designed.
Maddad_666@reddit
My Audis and VWs were unreliable. The Audi was awful expensive to fix. So far the BMW has been fine.
Captain_slowish@reddit
My experience with MB & BMW is that on a yearly basis service cost less than I paid on a Toyota.
The German dealerships for service were significantly better to deal with than Toyota.
All the makes were very reliable. The German parts were more expensive. But the Japanese parts were not as inexpensive as expected.
JonnyGee74@reddit
Yes, unless you somehow stumble on a vintage 911 at a screaming deal price (which is not gonna happen) in which case you'd have a fun, reliable car that significantly appreciates in value. Unless you encounter that very unlikely scenario, they are money pits.
usuallyusualspinach@reddit
I owned 3 Mercedes. Won’t buy another because they’re too expensive to maintain. I do preventative maintenance and it’s 3-4x the price as other vehicles. Gas is $1 more a gallon. Went with a Toyota cause the idea of a highly reliable engine appealed to me more than “driving experience” but truly my truck is smoother than any Merc I’ve owned. Just don’t have all the gadgets, which I’ll admit are nice, but you can just buy a higher trim and get those.
Intelligent_Pass_655@reddit
No, it’s even worse than you could ever imagine. People understate how bad it really can bez
Benthereorl@reddit
My daughter received a Mercedes GLK 350 from her future in-laws. Just basic scheduled maintenance was around $1,200. There are other schedules that are even multiple thousands. She had a headlight go out and they want to charge a couple hundred dollars to replace the bulb. They bought the bulb and I put it in but holy shit, you practically have to take the engine out of the vehicle to put that freaking bulb in. Way over engineered and seems like they button everything up before they put the engine in. Way over engineered. But if you got the money
Gold-Leather8199@reddit
If you have the money to buy one, you have the money to fix it, my sister had a BMW 550 and the rear tire was 500 dollars
ImpliedSlashS@reddit
I'm on my 3rd BMW (first one succumbed to an idiot looking at her phone while making a left turn, second lease ended and was afraid to buy it, 3rd is a 2020 and I bought out the lease) All maintenance performed on schedule and zero issues with any of 'em.
Per Consumer Reports, anything with a B48 or B58 engine should be reliable, providing you maintain it. That does NOT mean following BMW's 12 month/12,000 mile oil change interval and lifetime transmission fluid. Change the oil at 7,500 miles and replace the trans fluid at 6 years per ZF's recommendations. I would do the coolant as well at 6 years.
MagicOrpheus310@reddit
Yep.
If German engineering was anything it's made out to be then the cunts would have won a world war by now.
VW, Audi, BMW and Mercedes are hands down the worst vehicles to work on.
ComprehensiveFood466@reddit
Short answer: YES. They're ok for a couple of years from new, but once the factory runs out they start to need very expensive repairs and maintenance. Once something electronic breaks, you may as well total it and take the insurance check.
SalvatorOrsini@reddit
BMWs are built to brake down right after the warranty expires.
Ok-Village9683@reddit
Yes that was my experience.
GiIbert_LeDouchebag@reddit
It depends. How handy are you? How resourceful are you at troublesooting and sourcing parts?
They're really no less reliable than anything else in the grand scheme, but of course they've got their quirks and the odd, weird German engineering thing.
I've owned audis and vws for over 20yrs at this point. It helps that I know them inside and out. Have accumulated some specialty tools over the years, etc. But I'm more at home working on a German car than most anything else and I find that if they're maintained properly, they can be very very reliable.
NoSyrup7194@reddit
Probably. Lots of money new. Terrible value and really expensive to maintain after about 10 years.
ChiefRom@reddit
I was a manager at a Mercedes/BMW store and the parts are expensive. You can't even change the battery yourself in most cases. The mechanics that specialize in these cars are very few in each city. They are reliable vehicles however if something goes wrong it's usually expensive.
Let's say you want a Mercedes, I would find a mechanic that specializes in Mercedes and ask him what vehicles he recommends and get to know him. Do this for any brand you are considering. In my town I know both mechanics that specialize in Benz and BMW and every dealership in town will send him Benz and BMW when they have a problem they can't fix. I've seen this first hand.
Hugesalesguy@reddit
Hate to sound like a prick but if you have to ask this question…do not buy a German car.
colt707@reddit
I’ve had a couple VWs, absolutely love them. Great car IF you are religious about maintenance. Also once something goes it’s better to just start replacing everything that’s in contact with that part. In other words if well maintained they will run phenomenally until they don’t then it’s an uphill battle to get back to where you were. That means more money annually spent on maintenance than you’d have with say a civic.
The other side is parts aren’t cheap, ever. Labor costs are also not cheap, for example the oil pan on my TDI Jetta has double the amount of bolts as the oil pan on my full size ford diesel truck made in the same year. Another thing that makes getting them worked on expensive is the engine bay is just barely big enough to fit the motor which means more time because you have to come at one part from multiple angles to get it on or off.
LateWave4723@reddit
Main thing is to follow the maintenance schedule.
MoRoDeRkO@reddit
Hugely depends on a model. Some drivetrains in German cars are notoriously bulletproof. And taking into the account how fast German cars depreciate, it might make a specific model a solid buy. Maintenance however is a different story. Original parts and “luxury tax” make even a trivial oil change or brake fluid flush a hassle for your wallet. I own 2005 Mercedes E500, with one of those bulletproof drivetrains. So far only changed oil and did other regular maintenance. No serious problems
mrblahhh@reddit
owned ford trucks, jeep wranglers, mini coopers and bmw 1, 3, and x5 simultaneously for most of my adult life. My track car is a bmw 135i (N54) the past 25 years the bmw's have treated me with lower operating costs but I do all my own repairs.
Key_Path9679@reddit
On my 3rd Mercedes and have had zero issues with any of them. Granted I've kept up the maintenance as per Mercedes. Look for a model you like that is coming off lease so the previous owner eats the depreciation
BagBoiJoe@reddit
"It depends" is the long answer. The short answer is "yes."
Mr_Hyper_Focus@reddit
Was a Mercedes tech for almost 10 years.
It really depends what you buy. If you buy an AMG get ready to fucking spend. But it’s all relative to the price of the car.
I was also a fleet tech for 4 years, and will say that the germans(at least the Mercedes I worked on) were providing a MUCH better product overall.
USN303@reddit
Yes. Best answer.
Upset-Masterpiece218@reddit
It's not too bad if you're your own mechanic. Bits and bobs aren't crazy overpriced... Usually
Artistic_Trust_8481@reddit
You’re thinking of Land Rovers. I own three so I’m an expert.
Berfs1@reddit
I used to drive a 2009 Mercedes ML350. It took a shit ton of gas, and the car had so many electrical problems. I now drive a 2013 Lexus ES 300h, got it June 2022, and so far I've put 70K miles on the car (it's now at over 147K). Excluding gas, thr Mercedes cost us around 6K$+ in repairs over about 30K miles before I pulled the plug and got this car. This car so far, aside from the repair for the one time a rodent ate a wire and aside from the RPF1s, has costed me 1598$.
I have driven more than double the miles (both cars started around 75K mark) with the Lexus, and have spent almost 1/8th the maintenance cost of the Mercedes, for the Lexus. Now you have real world numbers for just how expensive German cars can be. Also to note, Mercedes was taken to Mercedes dealership, Lexus is taken to Toyota service center (because it's a Toyota under the hood).
Wizdad-1000@reddit
I’ve owned an old Audi and a an old VW Golf. The Golf was fine to work on but a tin box with seats and a steering wheel, damn thing ran forever as it was a diesel. The Audi had frequent issues and expensive parts. Never again. I now drive a Camry and 1Gen Tundra. The parts arent too expensive and the vehicles are reliable.
NegativePaint@reddit
I have a 2020 with 40k miles and just spent close to $5,000 and a week at the shop to replace the water pump and some other stuff that the water pump leak damaged.
In contrast the whole timing belt, water pump and other stuff on my wife’s 2019 Honda with 75k miles cost $1,200 and was done the same day at the Honda dealer
It’s not JUST that they tend to break more often. It’s also that when they do they cost A LOT to repair.
real_boiled_cabbage2@reddit
Yes. The first time you try to do anything mechanical to one, you'll realize for yourself how poorly designed they are. Same concept contributed to them losing the wars. Thier stuff is too complex and difficult to maintain and work on.
skyshock21@reddit
Some, yes; others, no.
My 2005 E46 M3 was the worst POS I’ve ever owned in terms of being a money pit. Almost $20k in running costs over 4 years. Meanwhile my 2010 Porsche Cayman has been the best car ever and cost me the least of any car I’ve ever owned and I’ve had it almost 10 years now.
wirebrushfan@reddit
In a word. No.
I bought my 2013 GLK350 at 125k miles. I've had it almost 3 years, I've done another 36k miles. Oil changes, replaced two headlamp bulbs, set of tires.
My gf has a 2014 C class. It has about the same miles now, but we bought that one with 75k miles. Needed brakes when we bought it. She's pretty rough on equipment, so I did have the suspension rebuilt on it. I replaced every cv axle, strut, control arm, and linkage. It was around 3 grand (aftermarket) parts and labor.
They aren't any more expensive than the other stuff out there. I find for similar year/vehicle type they're often cheaper than a domestic, because people are afraid of them.
totes_a_biscuit@reddit
I had an a4 that wasn't a money pit. Not sure if audi is German though.😂
SeaBass426@reddit
They’re not, until they are.
Environmental_Tap792@reddit
Basically yes
LordVixen@reddit
Audi = Absolutely Useless Driving Implement BMW = Bavarian Money Waster
I’ve owned both and am currently driving a BMW.
Lumpy_Plan_6668@reddit
Oh fuck too funny. I'm sitting here at work and one of our car salesmen just said to out service manager "the day this car stops giving me trouble is the day I go to heaven. ". He drives an Audi. He's getting one of our loaners while he waits on a $1200 hose.
Joancontre@reddit
Only get a German car if you don't mind working on them yourself, personally I own two mercedes and they have been pretty good, but I do all of the maintenance myself. If you can't or don't want to work on them don't bother
Able-Woodpecker7391@reddit
Yes. Overcomplicated, parts are difficult to find and expensive. BMW typically stands for Bring More Wallet. Hard to go wrong with a Honda
dgafhomie383@reddit
Nope. I've had Dodge, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi, lots of fords and 2 BMW's and a Audi. In some ways they are EASIER to work on, but can require you to buy a few tools - but so did my Fords. NOW - if you take your cars to the dealership for everything - then they will cost you WAY more - those dealership rates will kill you, But if you turn your own wrenches - then they are no worse than anything else I have ever owned. A Nissan I owned was the absolute worse to work on, but was also one of my favorite cars - so go figure. LOL
JayTheFordMan@reddit
Way I see them after having owned a couple is that BMWs are reliable and solid cars that can be maintained for reasonable costs, especially if you do the basics yourself, but if anything engine related breaks you're up for a bunch of money.
random8002@reddit
yes
pparhplar@reddit
Checking my atlas, yes, I thought so. Sweden is near Germany, so Volvos count as German,.so yes. Money pit.
its__accrual__world@reddit
The only time I'd say it's "ok" to buy a (used) German car is if 1) you can afford to take it in for the regular maintenance 2) you can turn a wrench yourself. I have a 2007 Audi A4 2.0T I bought in 2019 at 126k it's now at 215k. I still trust it and think it to be reliable but it's had a lot of work done by me (some upgrades and not necessary and some required maintenance) but if you can't or don't have a desire to spend a weekend to do maintenance and won't want to spend a ton of money its probably best to avoid German
DrakeBurroughs@reddit
lol. It DOES depend. I’ve had Mercedes that made it a decade without major repairs or costs.
And I have another German car that costs me $1,200 if I look at it wrong. Which is more often than I’d care to admit.
ejkang91@reddit
Cars are meant to take you from point a to point b safely. Get a Toyota or Honda. Who cares what the interior is like? If you care more about driving experience and interior maybe check out Mazda
Ok-Combination3108@reddit
Yes, yes they are
meh-meh_@reddit
Yes. The answer is yes. A cheaper, older, high mileage Bavarian will dollar you to death in service. The newer, fresher ones cost a bundle to buy. Either way these cars cost more to own. Is it worth it? Maybe.
TheWhogg@reddit
German cars are well made, and intrinsically long lived. They have annoying but non-fatal weak points - coolant system plastic. Some "wear parts" are expensive - fluid filled engine mounts, control arm bushes.
I have the worst German car ever made - pre LCI F01 750i with the original N63. Lots of shit has gone wrong approaching 100T km. It wanted a VANOS solenoid, the LH driver's door lock failed, the aircon failed and there was an overheating warning even on cold start. In the wrong hands, that car is a writeoff.
So I put a solenoid in ($A200), had an aircon guy to a regas with stop leak ($A300), and (since I would be in hospital and unable to drive) sent the car to the BMW hospital too with some parts. Second hand soft-close and lock mechanism ($A150) and a new turbo coolant aux pump ($A100). Bro charged me $A300 to fit them. All up a tick over $A1000. Add in 2 oil changes at home, air filters, cabin filters, wipers, brake fluid and I'm a bit over $US1000 in 2 years.
Or you could put a zero on the end of that easily going to a dealer.
Pleasant_Reaction_10@reddit
regardless of the anecdotes coming from both sides of the argument, the actual facts are that German cars have more complexity in design than others. This gives you a better driving experience (this isn't really the case anymore in 2024) but with complexity comes problems. it's just a physical thing you can't get away from.
JackMansom@reddit
If you don’t know what you’re doing yes. If you do, no. Currently daily-ing a 2004 BMW Z4 I only paid £2k for. Repairs would soon get way over that price if I didn’t know how to work on my own cars.
Malakai0013@reddit
Not always, but enough so that it's best to be prepared.
Many BMWs aren't any more complicated than the average American car, but those are usually older models. Newer ones kinda leaned into the stereotype.
VWs similarly became more complex in more modern years, but before 2000 they were quite simple. A good 80s era Golf or Scirocco hot hatch are pretty simple, and tons of fun to throw around corners.
Porsche had a few surprisingly simple models, the most common one I've worked on was the 944. Simple motor, simple transaxle at the back.
Mercedes diesels were practically unkillable for a while. Even with some expensive sensors as early as the 80s, the motors and mechnical bits were usually fairly solid.
The trick with Getman cars is treating them well. Follow service guidelines. Germans are very "to a t" when it comes to service schedules, and one reason their cars have a stereotype here (in my opinion, grain of salt time here) is because in the US we're a bit less strict about that kind of thing. We give things more leeway, and our cars have that leeway built into stuff like miles between oil changes.
NothingLeft2PickFrom@reddit
I had several and I didn’t find that they broke more often. It was just when they broke it was more expensive. And actually I had better luck with intervals between repairs than a couple of Japanese cars I owned.
jmartin2683@reddit
Yes
BeerCatDude@reddit
I have owned more cars built in Germany than any other country and they were all marvelously engineered. Like any car built in any other place, if you get behind on scheduled maintenance, you will pay for it.
GroshfengSmash@reddit
I once owned a Volvo and it took 12 hours to tunnel to the alternator. I hated that vehicle. Easily dumped 4k into repairs before I realized the pattern wasn’t about to stop.
espressocycle@reddit
I think you'll be better served by a Mazda or Honda.
mmiloou@reddit
I'd run away from people saying "don't buy used" and "lease don't buy"!!! I've only own German cars, besides really advanced stuff on the diesel sprinter, I work on them myself. The +/-10% on parts won't make a dent wether or not you work on them yourself or pay $,$$$ to the dealer.
Luxury cars are more complicated and thus can have more (little) things failing (team shit box!)
rahim770@reddit
Depends on your preference. If you cannot work on cars and don’t care about what german cars bring to the table (driving experience, feeling solid, premium interior materials) I would dtick with Japanese simply because the Germans simply wouldn’t appeal to you and you’ll most likely have less drama thru ownership. And since every mechanic can most likely also work on japanese here you will also not get robbed for service. I just saw a post 10 minutes ago about an e class needing 7k worth of work from a shop which could knock out in 8 hours with just 400 in parts so being a DIYer helps a LOT. Me personally all my 3 germans have been infinitely more reliable than 7/8 of my japanese cars, the only reliable japanese car i ever had was a rotary mazda. So yes as the end of the day choose based on your preferences.
Ok-Bit4971@reddit
Any European luxury car is only safe for the first two owners. The first owner leases it, and the second owner buys it certified preowned. Everybody after that is playing with fire.
kyrosnick@reddit
Bought an Audi q5 brand new in 2018. Zero issues. Super easy to work on and parts have been cheap. Bought a 911 turbo s. Same thing. Did all maintenance myself. Dealer prices are higher but my cars never see a dealer besides recall work. Basic maintenance on 911 has been cheaper than my Corvette. So in my experience no. Only if you are paying $300+ an hour for dealer labor rates are they way more.
wookieSLAYER1@reddit
Bought my Audi a4 with 190k miles on it. I’ve had it for 8 years and have had to sink about $5k into it. Front Control arms, fuel injectors, intake manifold and fuel system have had to be done. Next big ticket item is the cv shafts. All this is still cheaper than me having a car payment and buying a new car.
Duckysawus@reddit
Not necessarily. The gas is definitely the thing that's immediately more expensive.
Last year I had 3 BMWs (2009 E90, 2014 F10, 2021 G05)+ my dad spent more on his Toyota Sienna (2009 LE) than I did on repairs the last two years. The most costly things I had to spend so far in my years of ownership were the oil filter housing gaskets on the E90 + F10 (expected), and for tire replacements (also expected on all vehicles). I don't really push my BMWs too hard, and if/when I do it's after they're properly warmed up.
It also depends on the vehicle, the model year, how you drive it, whether you tune it or not, etc.
A lot of German vehicles are pushed by younger drivers + tuned, which wear down components quicker. BMWs are also turbocharged, so some things such as the rubber gaskets will wear quicker (due to heat + higher compression ratios) than those in a non-turbocharged vehicle. Toyotas + Lexus a few years ago were all naturally aspirated.
There are also more tech components in German cars if you option it out, which means just more things that CAN break, lol. If buying a BMW, I'd recommend you wait till at least the 3rd/4th year of that model/chassis introduction where earlier kinks are worked out by the company, and to stick to the 6-cylinder (B58) engine if possible. The earlier V8s are somewhat spotty. The later/newer V8s (last 4-6 years) are much better but still burn through a lot of engine oil.
If you're to buy a BMW and you want to get the most bang-for-buck, look for a used one less than 4 years old with an owner who cared for it, and that is at least in it's 4th year of production. You'd possibly save about 25-35% off new.
The models I'd recommend:
- 2023+ M340i (I like the new facelift) for small sedan with power.
- 2021+ X5 40i xDrive (large SUV) or the 45e (hybrid with air suspension but you'll have to pay more if fixing it later).
- 2020+ 540i xDrive (larger sedan) with newer tech.
- 2023+ 330i for smaller 4-cylinder.
Would also recommend that you look for one with the executive package, premium package at worse. The executive package BMWs have things such as nicer looking headlights, etc.
Fearless-Point-4335@reddit
This is going to sound obtuse but...
Even the same ones are different. I've owned mazdas and never had an issue. My friend had one, same make, same year, literally burst into flames randomly. Another friend again exactly the same as me, no issues.
There will always be good ones and bad ones that's a simple fact.
The general rule of thumb is how complicated is it and looking at parts etc, can you service it within buget?
A 98 BMW with 100k on the clock might blow a turbo eventually. But you've not got to worry about the electric handbrake jamming on because fuck you, like a 2020 might.
I love my mazda and I can afford the service costs, even if it goes wrong. I want a Jag XE, but I'm not sure if I could afford that if anything went fuck up.
Slamminrock@reddit
Id look into zoom zoom Mazda ,or a Honda in a tux Acura imo fun to drive reliable...my 2 cents
enjoiYosi@reddit
My only experience with a German made car was a VW Passat. The car was fucking awful and had constant problems. It was a 2006 I believe
Substantial_Hold2847@reddit
They aren't for me, but I always buy new and sell within 6 years / 65k miles.
jarede36@reddit
Lexus is always a great low maintenance luxury brand. Give multiple models a test drive. You may be surprised.
null640@reddit
My SO's current VW isn't. But the previous one more than made up for it.
Nighthawk132@reddit
As someone who owns many German vehicles both old and new here is my take:
Very high quality parts, which will last if maintained. Now this is hard if you’re buying used as you won’t have any idea on the history of the car.
Maintenance: although some of my cars do take more oil (or all of them taking higher quality oils), after you break it down, it’s not much more expensive. I have a 12000 mile interval on my e class which takes 10qts of oil. Basically equal to an economy car taking 5 every 6k miles. The difference here is who will do the work. If you go to a garage they will charge you more because you drive a Mercedes. The funny thing is, it’s actually easier to change the oil on a Benz than a ford! And quicker and cleaner too!
So yes, you may spend around 15% more for higher quality oil and parts than for a Toyota. But they will last the same if not more AND you get a much much much (I can’t even describe this) much better ride.
I own a ford as a work vehicle and it’s the single biggest piece of shit ever. Gmc although equally simple, atleast has some reliability.
My take: if you have the extra 15-25% for maintenance and can do it yourself (oil change and brakes) and you drive a lot. Get a luxury German sedan. Just be careful and do your research. As with all cars, some have bad engines, bad transmissions etc… either factor that into the cost of purchase, do it yourself, or buy one that was redone.
If you need a car for point A to B for cheap: get a Toyota.
If you want a cheap car that will break, buy a ford or any other American brand.
languid-lemur@reddit
After 11 VW I've become a diehard Toyota fan.
CB812@reddit
Yes buy Japanese
AndiagoSupremo@reddit
I kept my from new BMW as a second car with my primary furnished from my employer. It had like 110,000 when I stopped using it much. It was a disaster of really expensive stupid little things. The last was a $6,000 estimate for a faulty sensor that required disassembling so much of the car. I sold it for $2500 and the buyer said he had a mod to get around it.
Never again. Fun as can be to drive, but the last 5,000 miles was $10,000 in service and repairs.
gregsw2000@reddit
Just the maintenance schedules and maintenance costs make them money pits.
Farty_McPartypants@reddit
What sort of age car are you thinking of?
I’ve had mercs, Audis and BMW’s, the mercs have been the least hassle, the Audi was the most and the bmw I’m still deciding on haha
kstorm88@reddit
You can get a really nice low mile 2014 ml350 for around $12-15k. Those are proven to be very reliable. Plenty of those still on the road with 200k miles.
Destrega306@reddit
I had a 94 BMW that I would sacrifice a human life to get back. That car was so reliable.
sunshinebread52@reddit
My neighbor had two Mercedes because one was always in the shop. It had parts that broke that no other car even had. German engineering is an oxymoron. Neighbor finally sold both and bought a Honda, saved enough money to buy a house.
YozaSkywalker@reddit
They're usually money pits because people don't factor in maintenance to the cost of buying an old luxury car. I have an e92 m3, when I bought it I set aside 15k to fix anything that was wrong with it after purchase- spent every penny. But it's been great ever since.
Chaosr21@reddit
I havent had that experience with my 2 jettas and passat, but they're reliable 2.5l
Hizdud3ness@reddit
Look at the labor rates for repairs on German cars. Know that there are shops in existence that will turn you away as they do not work on said vehicles. There are some some German vehicles known for being reliable, some Volkswagen models primarily. Many parts may not be as easily locally sourced. The aftermarket does not cover the whole gamut of parts recreation as such in some cases you will be forced to utilize oem parts, which come at a premium price.
If cost of maintenance and repairs is a concern for you I would advise to stay away from the vast majority of used German cars. I would also add the caveat that I would not recommend one to someone as a daily driver that doesn't have a backup vehicle.
Progresschmogress@reddit
Again, impossible to generalize so
They depreciate very, very fast and they are expensive to own, period
They are hard to work on, sometimes requiring huge parts to come off just to access cheap/simple fix parts which translates into stupid amount of man hours needed
Parts are expensive and much more so are dealer man hours
You sometimes even need proprietary tools to do some jobs
Their price drops considerably after their warranty expires for precisely this reason
Pick whatever german you like and call your nearest dealership, ask them to quote you a 75K scheduled maintenance and see what they say
Some models and years have serious issues while others don’t, but yeah as a whole they are not particularly known for their reliability
So, where does that leave you?
You should probably look into lease hacking. If you can get a good enough deal on a new car that is still in warranty, then most of the above issues don’t necessarily apply. Easier said than done, but very much worth a look
For a high mileage commuter, a used car like these that is almost out of warranty is really the worst possible combination. For starters the price drops a lot after the warranty goes, so why would you wanna eat that. Then there’s the cost of ownership and reliability combo. If you need a car to go to work everyday, then simply put you’re better off with a dependable car that is cheap to own and fix if need be
For a weekend joyrider though? Nice. But at that point I still think you’re better off with 2 cars an old and fun sports car and a cheap & reliable commuter. It’s the whole gaming laptop argument: unnecessarily hight cost, won’t perform as well as the sports car, and financially hard to justify carrying it around everywhere you go
Yes, this all can be partially addressed if you can do the work yourself, and/or go to a good independent shop but once again remember, reliable commuter and project car are on opposite ends of the spectrum: you can’t drive it to work if you’re under it fixing one thing or some other
I currently own a 7 seater Mercedes GLB. The last service on it (oil, filters, nothing big) was almost 900€ at the dealership…
I have an extended warranty on it and have already had to have a couple of minor things fixed (something in one of the windows made it make a loud noise, one of the window buttons broke, small stuff like that that you wouldn’t expect from a german car but that anyone who’s owned one long enough will immediately recognize as part and parcel of owning a german car), and it’s only about 3 years old and has less than 25K miles on it
I don’t even want to know what would happen if we’d put 15K+ miles a year in it lol. I do not plan to own it with no warranty, and with kids I simply need a car that will work everyday
Azcyclist3178@reddit
Not German, but look at Volvo too. As long as you keep up maintenance they last forever and are comfortable as heck. Parts are about as expensive as any European vehicles will be, but from my experience they are a little easier to work on. This offsets labor costs a bit. (2005 S60, 354K miles and running strong)
Cpt_sneakmouse@reddit
Volkswagen would probably be the only German manufacturer I would say makes sense from a used out of warranty perspective. In terms of an own it forever perspective I think that era of German cars, and probably all cars for that matter has passed. The problem, aside from inherent design flaws with modern German cars, is that they're often built with the assumption that major mechanical repairs will not need to be completed during the cars intended life span. So then we get into a hell of a lot of engine out jobs which means a hell of a lot of money. So in my opinion if you're comfortable doing your own wrenching and have a garage to work on a bmw or merc it's fine to purchase a decent used one. Other people should avoid them, or ditch them when the warranty is up.
Crazecrozz@reddit
Depends how well you maintain it. I have a VW golf r from 2016 and the only thing that has ever been repaired is the intake manifold which costed about $3k. Other than that it's been solid. They cost a decent amount for any repairs but I feel like you will repair them less IF you maintain them properly.
DonkeeJote@reddit
After owning several Audis, I never thought maintenance was that difficult. But that also requires actively keeping it maintained.
killerwhaleorcacat@reddit
Yes
EntryLonely6508@reddit
i dont consider my 2020 Audi A7 to be a money pit but maintenance is high, but dont buy a car that you cant afford the maintenance on
Academic_Aioli3530@reddit
I know I’m not answering your question but based on what I read, you’re looking for a Lexus. Probably an IS300.
killbot0224@reddit
"Reliable" = rarely break down.
This is the easy part.
"Reliable if you keep up with maintenance" is where were already into making excuses.
The maintenance is more expensive. If something needs replacing, the parts are more expensive and the labor is more expensive.
The engines are (generally) over complicated and/or rely on tight tolerances. Great for outright power and/or efficiency (again "if you keep up with maintenance") not great for minimizing maintenance requirements...
And the engines are intolerant of abuse. Of delayed maintenance, of being out of tolerance, so they can easily spiral into magnified problems.
So "Reliable if you keep up with maintenance", right?
It all adds up. But as a baseline, you're probably going to pay appreciably more in maintenance, even before worrying about something actually breaking
Emotional_Grape_8669@reddit
I was warned ahead of time. I bought the car anyway. It cost me so much money. I tried to rationalize...the parts are better quality....the performance is better....but it was a money pit. It cost more to have serviced. The parts were more expensive. And it needed service all the time. Crazy shit like we have to take apart everything to access this one thing
bigeats1@reddit
Yes. Are you stupid? Anyway…
Acceptable_Delay_446@reddit
If you can’t afford to buy a German car new, you can’t afford to fix it used.
Toastybunzz@reddit
Yeah, they are.
They are designed to be maintained and it's expensive to do so (parts can be pricey if you DIY and labor is insane if you take it to a shop). But that's way cheaper than a German car that has not been maintained. You can get away with doing nothing but oil changes to a Japanese car for pretty much the life of the vehicle, not so with a German one. They will last if you take care of them though.
Ambitious_Ad6334@reddit
I wouldn't buy a German car, I'd lease one. And if I'd ever buy one, I'd be sure to dump it after 5 years.
SalamanderNo3872@reddit
Well if you buy a car that cost 150k new you can expect to pay 150k car maintenance and repairs. The problem is people buy them with 80k-100k miles without any warranty and expect to pay toyota repair bills.
niggle_diggle@reddit
Hi, I’ve owned 3 BMWs. A 93’ 325i, a 99’ 323i, and my current, a 15’ 335xi. Are they expensive to maintain? Yes, don’t kid yourself on that piece. What differentiates them from a money pit is that when scheduled maintenance has been done (and I’m religious about my routine maintenance) they’ve been the most reliable vehicles I’ve owned. Between the three over 10+ years of ownership, I’ve had 1 breakdown. The pressure relief valve on the 335xi got clogged and burst in a Lowe’s parking lot. Was a relatively cheap fix. Other than that, they’re treated me well in large part because I’ve treated them well. Also, on a side note about new BMWs, don’t by anything with a turbo’d 4 cylinder. If you can stick to anything with 6 cylinders, you’ll get a much more reliable vehicle imo. Good luck!
Konstant_kurage@reddit
Land Rover has entered the chat.
Necrott1@reddit
I have an Audi a8 with the 4.0t. It has been great to me thus far. The issues have been fairly minimal.
InternetSalesManager@reddit
Long answer yes.
Short answer yes.
dangerfielder@reddit
Overall? Yes.
New-Manufacturer-787@reddit
Wellll….. my gti mk7 god rest her soul wasn’t , I kept up with everything it’s just how u see it really. The only reason it became a money pit is when I decided it needed mods and with mods comes problems when ur young and dumb. Long story short first piston to make it to mars, anyways I say they’re not I’ve owned many German cars just keep up with maintenance
Swimming_Sympathy572@reddit
I’ve had 2 Mercedes, an Audi and currently own a BMW. All out of warranty and yes these cars cost more to maintain but tbh it isn’t that bad as long as you buy a car that’s been maintained well and you do your research into buying something that has good consumer reviews and minimal issues (all info available on forums) along with a trusted mechanic with an independent shop.
All cars have issues and so do the German ones and it’s not going to be maintenance free but if you know what you’re doing you just might come ahead.
What I mean by this is look for a generation of German cars within your budget (say 2013-2016) and search for common issues with them (mostly water pump, valve cover gaskets, timing chain, fuel pump etc and all info is available in forums) and look for a car in which these have been done then get it inspected at the best German shop (even though you might not take it there afterwards) and budget in repairs that have not been done (keep a little money aside). Use the car for a few years and roughly 30k-35k km or thereabout and sell it and get another one by doing the same process. If you keep all the bills from your ownership and from that of the previous owner and get a fair price then you might be able to get out of the car for around what you paid or a little less than what you paid.
A lot of variables here too but you have to know what you’re doing and you can’t drive the car like you stole it, push it once in a while but not all the time.
MrAnalogRobot@reddit
I've had a handful of different German cars. My golf R was very affordable. I sold that after a few years and never had even a minor issue.
The luxury brand cars are more expensive, but none of mine (MBs and BMWs) have been money pits or had expensive or consistent issues. They've been super reliable. That being said, I maintain them well and haven't had any beyond 12 years/150k miles.
I think the money pit part comes in when you buy an older one that wasn't maintained well or is due for some big work - which is often when people sell them. With an older German car, you're buying what someone else didn't think was worth the money, in many cases, anyway.
NoCookie8852@reddit
lol buddy of mine had to replace tcase and some suspension components totaling 10k on the first week so eh…when it worked it worked let me tell u tho
Abnormal-Normal@reddit
It’s all relative. People buy cheap German cars to look fancy, but that $15,000 merc was MSRP for over $100,000 when it was new, and the parts and labor will still reflect that. On top of that, because it’s so expensive, a lot of people just won’t do the maintenance and leave the next owner with half done repairs and thousands of dollars to make the car reliable again
Just know what you’re getting into. Ask for service records. Bring a mechanic who specializes in the vehicle you’re interested in with you if you plan to buy one.
Heedingauricle@reddit
I paid 4k for an audi q7 with 200k miles on it. It has problems, but I love it for winter driving. Ive used it for 2 years and have only paid for oil changes + non oxy for premium @4.20 a gallon. I wouldn’t buy a used audi as a daily driver though. The second something major happens to mine im parting it out.
Sea-Band-7212@reddit
Yes
operator090@reddit
I'm on my 4th used BMW.
E30: awesome, awesome car but old, so everything plastic or rubber is suspect. Rust, damage. E46: mine was a 323, so nothing special. Coolant system and window regulators were crap. E90: great car, PCV failes and valve cover leaked. E39 (V8): dumb stuff that shouldn't be an issue.
If you can work on your own cars, BMW are great. There are LOTS of online resources for diagnosis and repair. Have a backup plan if the car is down for repairs. It'll be dumb stuff - power steering pump falls off, coolant reservoir splits, window regulators fail, bushings, ball joints, THEY ALL LEAK OIL AND/OR TRANSMISSION FLUID AND/OR COOLANT.
If you can't work on your own, have deep pockets for time at the shop or look elsewhere.
GuaranteeOk6262@reddit
BMW stands for break my wallet.
BlinderBurnerAccount@reddit
They say the most expensive german car you can buy is a used one
Relative_Year4968@reddit
(Angrily tagging on your comment)
Sheezus, OP. Versions of this question have been litigated ad nauseum, tens of thousands of times on Reddit and on the internet.
It's exhausting when someone comes in with a 1,000 word diatribe in 2024 obliviously asking, is it true Internet, that European cars are more expensive [pikachu face]?
There's no reason this deserves another Reddit post. Your question isn't new, it's not custom, and everything you need to answer it has been flogged to death hundreds if not thousands of times over. It's already here.
caterham09@reddit
*a cheap one
UncleBenji@reddit
Someone tried to sell me a Phaeton years ago at a car show. Great looking car but when I saw the dash move to expose the vents and radio screen I laughed and walked away. I bet that system would cost more to fix than I’d pay for the vehicle. Cool feature but completely unnecessary.
caterham09@reddit
Iirc, the vents in the phaeton are actually actuated that way because the car has an ac system that works without blowing air into the drivers face.
But yeah they are ridiculous. The w16 phaeton is more or less a discount Bentley continental
nortonj3@reddit
I have an audi A8L with the W12. it's amazing!
UncleBenji@reddit
Regardless the expense of something like that alone made me walk away. Someone else tried to sell me a Testarossa and when I asked what maintenance was like they said “not bad”. That made me ask what happens if I need a headlight or something else and they told me I would need to call the manufacturer. When I said who would it be for headlights they said one manufacturer (I think Benz) and when I said another part they said VW. Sounded like a pain in the ass for a 25yo vehicle.
Conscious-Food1622@reddit
W12. W16 Phaeton would be insane
dundundun411@reddit
Debating on pulling the trigger on a 2021 MB S560. I'll let you guys know how it works out.
twosnailsnocats@reddit
No they don't.
KittyLitterpureblood@reddit
Not really, 5 Mercedes later and that’s just not true
Training_Bumblebee54@reddit
I know this is an outlier, but the 2.5L “07k” inline-5 VWs are the lowest-maintenance of all the modern VWs. They aren’t the most refined cars, but a Mk6 Golf 2.5 is still a fun and reliable car.
redline83@reddit
It strongly depends on the specific model you are considering. Some are, some aren't.
Feeling-Comfort7823@reddit
Rich fella told me one time, " If you want to go broke, own a Mercedes and a boat. "
I guess he was citing the maintenance costs for both but, you get the point!
rhydy@reddit
When they throw timing chains at 60k miles...yes
smily_meow@reddit
They are not engineered in a way to minimize repair effort, therefore high labor cost, and they are rather complex and require intensive training for the technicians. Compared to their Japanese rivals
Parts are very expensive for what it is. Not absolute dollar value, but in terms of what you get for what you pay.
Many of them are great driving machines.
Luxurious? The lower tiers BMWs, Audi have rather low quality interior trims.
Yes they are money pits.
I'm not one of those who believe only Japanese cars are good, others are trash. My own experience: Alfa Romeo Stelvio has been great
gangchang21@reddit
I have had a 2019 gti since 2020. It has been very reliable. I have 96k miles now. Parts and maintenance seem to be more expensive than my previous Mazda 3, but the gti has been great.
espeero@reddit
It depends on the specific model. All of them have made engines and transmissions that are absolutely bulletproof and all have made absolute shitshows. Ask on model and brand-specific forums and subs to get the consensus on the good and bad ones.
Stooper_Dave@reddit
No. With the massive asterisk of: "if you are willing to get your hands dirty." If you don't own a socket wrench and a set of vehicle ramps, don't even consider a BMW or merc. Something simple that cost 50 bucks and a couple hours of your time to fix in the garage can cost thousands at the shop.
devilsadvocate2709@reddit
I have 8 years with German cars (VW and Audi) and 8 years with Mazda. My Mazdas cost of ownership were infinitely higher with all costs considered.
MEMExplorer@reddit
Stuff that was built pre 2000s are solid , anything after is meh .
I’ve had a 99 Z3 Coupe , never had any issues with it . My brother had a 95 318 , only had one issue with the AC compressor .
“Upgraded” to a new 05 325 , and the coolant expansion failed and seized the motor in 2010 .
asloan5@reddit
They’re not money pits when they’re under warranty just get rid of it before the warranty is up and if you have to ask, you don’t want a German car
frozenthorn@reddit
Maintenance is more expensive on an expensive car, that's really the only correlation that you should be concerned with.
People that don't do proper maintenance will incur additional costs, and are more likely to say things like they are money pits.
I've put like 150k second hand miles on my current bmw, the only costs for me have been personally added upgrades and basic maintenance. Nothing has "broke" yet, I know it eventually will, but I'm well beyond getting my money out of it.
GoldenxGriffin@reddit
German v6's, i6's, i4's especially when applied to an economy car like a c300 or a 328i is not at all complicated and very reliable they just have certain service intervals like every car, i find they are very diy friendly you may just need a special tool, and special tools are an issue with every car manufacturer.
and once it gets to high mileage just get a scanner and you'll know whats going wrong with it, biggest issue in my opinion is when something is wrong the codes won't always come up on your dash so it can be a mystery without a scanner
german v8's or performance cars like an turbo i6 m3 are not reliable though, everyone always gets the two mixed up, and if anyone has ever had a problem with a german economy car its because YOU DIDNT TAKE CARE OF IT simple as that.
3ClassiC@reddit
No
Vegetable-Giraffe-79@reddit
Yes
CaptainSloth269@reddit
In my experience, no. Some aspects are more expensive however the frequency of needing repairs has been less in my experience.
matteooooooooooooo@reddit
I don’t want to answer, for fear of disturbing the sleeping beast under my German hood.
yaboymigs@reddit
My family has put 220k miles on a 2013 BMW 528i and other than routine maintenance I think two things have gone wrong with it (turbo housing which I replaced myself) and I don’t remember the other one but it had something to do with the battery.
I as well have a newer G30 5 series - if you get a B48 or B58 engine car you’ll be fine, but if you got a M5 with the V10 which has actual documented issues, then you’re in for a completely different ownership experience. Same thing applies to MB or whatever other brand you want.
I’ll also say that I saw a few comments say 3 series and below aren’t luxury cars, I’d honestly disagree to an extent. 1 series probably not so much, 2 series is a sports car so if you compare it to a different brand but same class I’d argue it’s comparatively a luxury vehicle. 3 series is definitely more of a luxury car than a Corolla or civic, which are all the smaller more compact sedans of their respective brands
TLDR: they cost more to maintain but if you DIY it’s really not bad and the reliable models are reliable. Also worth noting is that all vehicles are getting expensive to take in to shops and dealers, independent mechanics are the way to go and that definitely applies to BMW and Audi and MB as well
NovGeo@reddit
My two friends have a super duper high end Audi and a nice trim level VW truck looking number. The former seems to be destined to have a very high cost of ownership (weird things go wrong then stop), the VW has been a work horse without issue for like 5 years.
Time-Chest-1733@reddit
I bought a A5 3l diesel for £500 with 214000 on the clock. No issues.
meshreplacer@reddit
German cars are designed to last 1 day past warranty They would use plastic parts in places where metal would be a much better idea but the 30 cents savings adds up. It is called Minimum viable product design. Why spend more if there is no additional profit gain.
What happens is those critical plastic components end up failing due to heat/pressures etc.. and when they do it becomes a catastrophic failure where engine damage could occur etc..
Synisterintent@reddit
I've owned a VW (2019 beetle) for years, nothing out of the ordinary that I noticed price wise
Adventurous_Bid4691@reddit
The correct answer to that question is "Yes".
Sure they are wonderful cars that work great....until the light comes on.
Then the pain begins.
And the crying.
PinnerSnitch99@reddit
Absolutely
Bulky_Dingo_4706@reddit
Not Porsches. They are built solid.
PinnerSnitch99@reddit
Agreed. They are the exception.
PizzaCatLover@reddit
I have always stuck to the idiom "You can't afford a German car if you can't afford to pay someone else to work on it"
Maybe someday
PicadaSalvation@reddit
If you’re in the US don’t buy a German car.
Fargraven2@reddit
No.
In America we treat our cars like shit and act surprised when things break and turn into a money pit.
In Europe they have more respect for cars and the required maintenance schedule. The car will be fine as long as that’s followed
StellaNavigante@reddit
Dude, just buy a modern Mazda. German build quality with Japanese reliability. Best of both worlds. Also Soul Red is one of the best colours you can buy for a bog-standard econobox. Fight me.
Warmonger362527339@reddit
High performance ones tend to be
mrmniks@reddit
i'm reading these comments and just don't get it.
you guys don't do maintenance or what? it's unheard of here in europe to "forget" to change oil or filters or anything.
every car has maintenance routine, you cannot avoid or skip it, why would you ever not do it? if it's expensive, buy a cheaper car.
german cars are nothing but spectacular. but i mean if you expect a car to run with no service whatsoever...damn
01WS6@reddit
People do the maintenance, the problem is the "maintenance" isnt stuff that should be maintenance, and is extremely expensive because of bad design.
Things like plastic water pumps that prematurely fail because they are cheap plastic. The whole cooling system needing to be replaced from various cracks and leaks. Gaskets that prematurely fail and leak. The BMW E46 for example was infamous for the rear subframe ripping itself out from faulty mounting. Or the Audi S4 V8, premature timing chain guide wear, the timing chain faces the firewall so the whole engine needs to be dropped out to replace the nightmare timing chain. Or the BMW V8 and V10 with rod bearing issues. Or the BMW Vanos issues. The list goes on...
goose_men@reddit
I own a 10 year old diesel Benz suv that I bought new, parts and service are expensive but you can do a lot of work yourself and find independent garages that can work on them. Do your research, they are not all the same, look for the reliability of the platform and the engine and look at where they are built - I factory ordered mine from Germany with exactly what I wanted on it, leaving out many of the features that you would find in dealer orders that add cost and complexity.
KitchenPalentologist@reddit
The indy shops around me cost about the same as the dealer shops, and they don't have loaner cars, and they can't do everything (some coding, etc).
Padded_Rebecca_2@reddit
Naw, owned many without any major issues. BMW had most recalls, 2x Mercedes without issue, 2x VW without issue. Roughly 400k miles.
schoff@reddit
Get a CPO coming off lease. These leases have maintenance built in so you get a car serviced by the dealer. This is what I've done for the past 15 years with 5 different premium cars for my wife and I and we haven't had any problems.
CivicRunner89@reddit
Yes and no.
Here's the thing: German society loves rules and following them to a T. They also like to complicate things in order to extract a bit more performance.
German cars, yes, require some more maintenance. That maintenance is, yes, a little more expensive.
The reason they're money pits is because the typical American buyer wants to change the oil, tires, and brakes, and just keep driving...and then by the time the third owner comes around, they're stuck having to do all the catch-up maintenance that the previous owners didn't do.
Parts are a little more expensive, but not much. Hourly labor is a little more expensive, but the AMOUNT of labor is what gets you with German cars. They package things in a way that doesn't make a ton of sense from a maintenance and repairability perspective, and you can have a scenario where you have 1500 in labor to replace a $30 part because of how much has to come apart.
TL;DR: If you maintain a German vehicle they'll last every bit as long as a Japanese vehicle will, but many people just don't.
YT_RandomGamer01@reddit
I bought a $400 2003 jetta with 192k mile that was sitting in a field for years, replaced fuel pump and fuel filter and did a quick tune up, and she started right up, I did timing belt as preventative maintenance and as a learning experience. I had her over 2 years and put 12k miles and sold it with about 204k for $900
AceMaxAceMax@reddit
All of mine have perfectly reliable and nothing but routine scheduled maintenance. Great cars.
_k_b_k_@reddit
You're from the US, right? Do americans realize that on this side of the pond it's the exact opposite? American cars are considered unreliable / money pits :D
01WS6@reddit
Whats funny is that the majority of "American" cars over there are actually European.
Interesting_Visit483@reddit
Care to explain? The most popular us cars in Sweden atleast since the 2000s have been stuff like chrysler pt cruiser, grand voyager, 300c, Pontiac Montana, ford ranger, dodge ram 1500, dodge calliber, chevrolet captiva, Corvette, Mustang, s-10, orlando, uplander etc etc. I don’t really see how these sre engineered in Europe, except for maybe the 300c which is an E class, but the engine is still a 2.7, 3.5 or 5.7 from chrysler.
01WS6@reddit
Ford focus, fiesta, ka, transit, kuga, puma are all European and only the focus, fiesta and transit are even available in the US. (All three are known to be unreliable in the US as well) The current ranger is designed in Australia.
Chevy aveo and spark (asian), captiva (asain), cruise (asain), orlando (asain). Only the cruize, aveo and spark were available in the US, and known to be unreliable.
You even named the captiva and orlando yourself, and those were not ever available in the US.
Interesting_Visit483@reddit
No one really sees fords european models as american.
Neither the korean small cars.
The Ranger has been popular ever since it came out, not just recently.
As for captiva and orlando i will stand corrected.
01WS6@reddit
While this is anecdotal experience, just about every European on reddit ive seen talk about European Fords consider them "American", especially when talking about them having poor reliability. Last time i had a conversation about this on here a European redditor insisted that some Ford Europen van (wasnt the transit, i dont remember the name amd had never heard of it before) that was built in Germany, with a German engine and transmission, and was never sold in the US, was in fact an American car and unreliable because it was American, when ironically enough it was the German engine and transmission that gave him issues.
Interesting_Visit483@reddit
I can’t speak for an entire continent, i only know what swedes think/know or the ones i’ve met, not germans. But my guess is (and how it is in Sweden) is that most that are atleast slightly informed on cars know ford europe isn’t exactly the same as ford NA. I rarely hear of anyone thinking a KA or fiesta are the poster boys of american engineering or that they are american.
You will always meet uninformed people on reddit, it doesn’t mean everyone on in a country much less a continent is uninformed.
01WS6@reddit
Agreed, thats why i was saying it's just anecdotal. I take everything from reddit with a huge grain of salt, as anyone should. However i was just bringing up that whenever this discussion happens it seems like a European uses European cars from American brands for "unreliable" cars.
ElRetardoSupreme@reddit
Most American cars are. We built decent trucks and SUVs. Not so much cars
_k_b_k_@reddit
I don't believe that though. I think there are good cars to be found in practically every brand's lineup (not necessarily right now I mean), just gonna know which ones to avoid.
ElRetardoSupreme@reddit
That’s a good point. The muscle cars do seem to be solid.
MortimerDongle@reddit
Many Americans also consider American cars unreliable - particularly Dodge, Jeep and the other legacy Chrysler brands.
The common perception (which is not necessarily correct, and is certainly too broad) is something like this:
Japanese: very reliable, inexpensive to fix
American, Korean: average reliability, inexpensive to fix
German: average to below average reliability, expensive to fix
British, Italian: poor reliability, expensive to fix
oldHondaguy@reddit
I’ve got a 280SL Mercedes. I drive it regularly. Aside from regular maintenance, I’ve not had any major problems with the car.
Downtown-Ice-5022@reddit
If you go into any mechanic sub and show them your repair bill over 1,000$ they will say it’s “outrageous and insane! The mechanic is a thief and a hack! Oh it’s a Mercedes? Normal bill.”
HouseOfShah@reddit
I’ve bought two Porsche Caymans and race the shit out of them. They never had any mechanical problems.
Bulky_Dingo_4706@reddit
1999 Porsche Boxster here, no major problems for 25 years.
RandalfTheBlack@reddit
I have a 2019 Jetta in manual transmission that I bought new. Ive put 93k on it so far and have only had to replace one 60 dollar part and im not sure that that part broke on its own (more likely an overly heavy handed mechanic). Im not friendly to my cars. I don't beat on them as such, but ive never been found in need of an "italian tune-up." So YMMV but my experience with VW so far has been really good. Perhaps once it hits 150k itll be expensive but i personally find most cars get expensive to maintain after 150k.
bigblackglock17@reddit
VW is probably your best bet. I’ve looked into BMws and Mercedes. First off, they require premium fuel until recently. The BMWs have timing chain problems. Every 60k miles it’s like a $3,000 job. Audi is similar. The have multiple timing chains in some engines and it’s like $12,000. Not so sure on Mercedes. In general these vehicles all have luxury prices and luxury priced parts that seem to fail sooner.
However new cars in general don’t seem to be that reliable.
Sure_Comfort_7031@reddit
Germans have two stereotypes which I thoroughly believe to be true.
If there are lost tourists in the desert in the summer, they will be Germans.
They follow rules and policy.
With a VW, BMW, etc - they’re designed and engineered with tolerances and such, such that if you keep up your maintenance on schedule, they’ll be clean and treat you well. Deviate from that plan and you’re in for a world of hurt. Toyota design is way looser, and says “Oh, yeah we planned on the owner not touching their transmission fluid for 100k miles, even though we said to do it every 30k”
As far as working on them, they’re metric Fords. They’re realistically no more complicated than any other vehicle out there (aside from some stuff, I know one of the SUVs had air suspension and some other shenanigans like that here and there).
If you are NOT DIYing the repairs, then you will see a difference. If you ARE DIYing the repairs, and are in the US, you’ll be in the same boat as a Toyota - you’d still need a shop for tire mount/balance and TPMS reprogramming, and for “deep” engine work. And if you’re like me, brake fluid flush, because it’s <100 bucks, and DIY is a bear.
<30k miles used (don’t inherit the chance the prior owner didn’t do the right maintenance in time), or new, and you’re good. An econobox VW (Golf, Jetta) will treat you well, whereas a “luxury” like BMW or Merc might be a bit more to deal with over time.
HBCDresdenEsquire@reddit
2014 VW Passat, 69k miles, one major repair.
Seamusnh603@reddit
Yes. It is the repairs (ex. replace AC compressor) rather than the maintenance (oil, brakes. tires). Edmunds.com lets you compare cors in terms of maintenance and repair costs. Check a 2020 Toyota Corolla agains a 2020 VW Jetta and the VW costs $2000+ more in maintenance and repairs over 5 years. https://www.edmunds.com/car-comparisons/
accidentallyHelpful@reddit
I removed four different types of fasteners to remove the fan shroud on a stock BMW and had several similar experiences that made me think they have nothing but long, cold winters with nothing to do but drink beer and over engineer things
Disastrous-Egg8923@reddit
We have had German cars since 1992...mostly BMW, but I strayed in 2004 with an Audi, and in 2012 with a Mercedes...I returned to BMW because I like them better..just personal taste. Currently we own 2 BMS, a 3 Series and a 1 Series I have never found them to be money pits at all I think the key difference between German cars and Japanese cars is that most Japanese cars seem to be more tolerant of poor, or lack of, servicing. BMWs are very particular about servicing.They need best quality oils and like to be serviced exactly on time The only problem I've had over 32 years that required a non maintenance part was a bad alternator on my E46 330i way back in 2006. There was a problem.on my Wife's previous 1 series back in 2008; there was a bad sensor at the base of the steering wheel; fixed under warranty but required 3 dealer visits. Other than that, just normal servicing requirements; oil, brake fluid all filter changes, tyres, and brake pads/rotors. Had to replace a fog light due to a stone cracking it, but that wasn't expensive. The servicing costs on my wife's BMW 1 series are less than on my daughter's Hyundai. Our current cars are 5 and 6 years old..both with zero problems so far Maybe I've been lucky. I never skimp.on servicing, use my dealer and OEM parts for servicing. A full BMW dealer service history makes the car worth more when it comes time to sell it. Might save a few $ at an independent, but if prefer the BMW warranty on parts and service. I'm also a member of the 2 BMW clubs in my area..useful for tips and other owners experiences I use a lot of rental.cars when I'm overseas; lots of brands and in many different countries, and when I return and drive my car, I know why I bought a BMW
MisterMakena@reddit
Yes. Outside of reliability and maintenance and parts, insurance.
dpceee@reddit
Not when I was living in Gemany. There, there was a a ton of cheep parts and everyone knew how to work on the vehicles.
MattWolf96@reddit
I knew someone with a 2002 Beetle that was 16 years old at the time with 140,000 miles, almost every system had an issue on it, electrical, transmission, engine, HVAC, oh and the sunroof leaked.
I've known people with older and higher milage Hondas, Toyota's, Mazda's hell even Chevy's and Ford's which still ran great and hadn't required any major repairs.
Also I work at an auto parts store, we barely stock anything for European cars so we almost always have to order them which has a shipping fee, on top of that the parts are also usually more expensive.
Alexexec@reddit
They’re more fun and engaging overall but tend to be more complex with more involved/expensive servicing/repairs, built to perform well and are enjoyable but at a higher cost, whereas Toyota/Lexus build to perform well and last long but are less fun on average. I wouldn’t want to have a modern euro car without a warranty but there are exceptions like the older 80s/early 90s Mercedes diesels like the 124/123, tried and tested robust and economical beasts
bike-pdx-vancouver@reddit
I’m mean, Honda and Toyota both make reliable cars. I’d consider that.
pwsparky55@reddit
Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
svalkas@reddit
*laughs in w123."
Not what most people are thinking of, but my 41 year old naturally aspirated 4-cyl diesel Mercedes will go another 40 years easy, barring a major wreck. Parts aren't all available at AutoZone, but they're actually cheaper than my previous Toyota and Subaru parts in most cases. it's so simple that I can do pretty much anything on this car with a simple tool set myself and save a TON of money.
Cheapest to service car I've owned, and I've had Honda, Toyotas, VW, Subaru, Chevy.
More modern than mid 90s and Merc turns into a different story. But 76-91? Any day. I'll take a w123, 124, 126 over pretty much anything on the road.
Also: interior is clean, exterior is excellent. Paid $2500. Will have it 100% mechanically sorted and restored to top form for about another $1300. For a luxury car that turns heads, always starts and drives, and sips diesel at 36mpg highway... not bad at all.
Alexexec@reddit
124 diesel here, great fuel economy and robust af
xtetsuix@reddit
Yes.
Wuddntme@reddit
Put it this way, my father was a Mercedes mechanic for 50 years. My great grandfather owned the dealership. Years ago he bought an s-class from a customer. After about a year it started running rough. It needed new engine wiring harness. It was EIGHT THOUSAND DOLLARS! And that was the dealer cost!
kcbass12@reddit
A friends car, Benz, was making what she said is a hissing noise. She troubleshot and found out a plug was missing from her manifold. Asked me to pick up the part from local dealership and install it. The part, which I described as the rubber bulb from an eye wash dropper cost $19.00! This year was 1985!
Such_Play_1524@reddit
If your going to go Merc or BMW your going to want to lease it. And you really should only be leasing if your job requires you to have 100% reliable transportation. Aka something like a surgeon that can we called in at any moment. Other then that it’s pretty dumb to lease u less your getting an insane close out deal because they manufacture couldn’t sell that model of car for whatever reason and their in-house finance department has to make those deals available to make production continue from a cost production perspective unit standpoint.
brickhouseboxerdog@reddit
I mean on a flipside I bought a toyota corolla im 6spd, in the idea it's soooo reliable, that's great if it wasn't so frustratingly difficult to drive. , but even guys who love German cars say they rather lease them
IllMasterpiece5610@reddit
Depends on what German car you’re talking about. I drove my ‘97 vw golf for 765,000 kms before selling it; it still worked fine and it’s been the cheapest in maintenance and repair costs of any car I ever owned; it never left me stranded and handled like a dream.
I think the trick is to find one that’s as basic as possible. All the gadgets in newer cars, while nice to have, are prone to failing and add to greatly to the aggravation and expense.
cedit_crazy@reddit
I'm told BMWs are reliable and that has reflected my experience with owning a BMW z3 pretty well but yet again I typically drive exclusively antique cars with my z3 being my only modern car so all I can truly say is if you want reliability avoid cars that are trying to be the latest and greatest fast eco friendly next gen super dooper Audi quarto go with the most old fashioned simple car and yeah a lot of German cars are trying to be the latest and greatest thing to ever come out especially Audi so eh id point you towards a Volkswagen for most likely to be reliable BMW if you're willing to sacrifice a bit more reliability for the sake of sportyness and Audi if you really don't give two craps about reliability and look at cars like the Volkswagen golf that has hardly had a facelift in the past 20 years Volkswagen has to know how to make a good golf at this point the Beatle I'm not sure they have had a significant facelift so maybe they changed something to screw up
Chopchopstixx@reddit
Merc and BMW will last forever with the intention that the owner will maintain them according to their book. Toyota will last forever with the intention that you will not maintain them according to their book.
ConclusionDull2496@reddit
Yes, they are. Not only are they time consuming and difficult to work on, parts and labor are incredibly expensive compared to the rest of the market. If you want something that's reliable and affordable to own, look into something Japanese.
Haunting-Disaster-99@reddit
cars sometimes you get lucky sometimes you don’t. Any expensive higher end brand typically is indeed a money pit but my wife and I both drove Volkswagen for years and those were honestly the best cars we ever owned no issues whatsoever and only got ride of them cause we are crazy and wanted so many kids we bought a mini van 😂
Cyber_Insecurity@reddit
Yes.
They are specialty cars and only certain car shops can work on them and they require expensive parts.
evil-artichoke@reddit
Yes. 30+ years of working with folks who tend to drive luxury cars. I've pretty much owned Toyotas / Lexus during that same time period and can tell you from experience they are much lower cost to maintain and spend less time in the shop when they rarely break.
Horror-Locksmith-810@reddit
I have 19 gti and is probably the most fun daily I could ask for. I did get into an accident and it has been super stressful for the shops to fix it correctly and expensive. It’s at over 7 k in damage and it still is having suspension and steering issues. So be prepared for some unexpected costs to repair or make sure to find a reputable shop specializing in euro cars. In my area alignments are more expensive than other cars as well as all maintenance too.
Morlanticator@reddit
Yes. 6 years of auto repair management experience has proven this to me.
It's usually the secondhand owners that buy them cheap used that get burned by them. The original owners often lease or just sell them before warranty expires.
aquatone61@reddit
They sure as hell can be.
sharp-calculation@reddit
I drove only German cars for about 12 years. It was a VERY expensive 12 years.
Generally speaking, German cars are far more complex with sophisticated systems that tend to break. For example, my car's air conditioning stopped working. The dealer did some troubleshooting and determined that the compressor was not turning on. The compressor was not broken. It had no leaks and it *could* turn on. But it would not. Because this car has a WOT (Wide Open Throttle) sensor inside the compressor. When the gas pedal is pressed all the way, the compressor turns off to give full engine power to the wheels.
This "WOT sensor" inside the compressor malfunctioned, preventing it from turning on. The sensor is *inside* the compressor and can not be replaced separately. The compressor needed to be replaced. If you know AC you know that if you replace a compressor, you drain and refill the coolant. You also know that you replace the dryers and other associated parts. Which made the repair estimate about $3500 in 2010 dollars, or about $5000 in today's equivalent dollars. Because a sensor was bad.
Everything is over engineered and overly complex in German cars. Which leads to high failure rates and expensive replacements.
MeepMeeps88@reddit
Here's what my mechanic told me years ago. German engineers expect their car owners to regularly do proper maintenance, if that is achieved, they should be pretty reliable. Japanese engineers understand that most drivers won't do the proper maintenance and overbuild their cars to account for that. British engineers only care about how it looks on the inside and outside, and don't give two shits about reliability lol.
So what happens is people buy used German cars that haven't had regular proactive maintenance and then they need a whole bunch of work done, costing time and parts. They also use specialized tools whereas any Toyota and Honda can be taken apart and put back together with a 10 mm, 14 mm, and 16 mm socket wrench.
That stated, I own two Japanese SUVs and a british sports car. In the past I've owned mostly Japanese, and two German vehicles. German vehicles are always more difficult to work on because of how complicated they make it to replace basic parts. A great example are the early 2000 Audi S4s. For whatever reason, they decided to put the timing chain not on the front of the engine but on the back. If it fails, you literally have to pull the entire engine out to fix it.
German cars typically have a lot more sensors as well. My old BMW 550 was a min of $1200 just to change its brake pads because there's a sensor that monitors moisture and pulls the pads in by a 16th of an inch. Every time the pads are replaced, that system would have to be recalibrated.
stevet303@reddit
From my experience with 4 German cars, absolutely
OkLibrary4242@reddit
Had a Mercedes. Every time I drove past the dealership it took $50 out of my checking account.
hamiltoncolin@reddit
I’ve heard good things about some of the 2.4 jettas after 2010s but there’s certain years with transmission issues, other then that i new some guys had had them no trouble and thought good of them. The other brands idk anything about good or bad, so they could be better or worse
ItZ_Jonah@reddit
In my biased opinion as a mazda owner. What I found when I got my mazda was the interior was relatively nice and the ride is fairly sporty and fun. The gearing feels good and the car just does what I want from it. I have a 22 turbo sedan and it checked all the boxes for me. nice interior, good power (250hp), AWD (not necessary where I live but love the feel), ok ish on has mileage unless I have it in sport and am jumping off the line. averaging 30 ish mostly city, 20 or so in sport pushing it.
xampl9@reddit
I’ve owned 3 German cars, each from a different brand, and all of them needed frequent repairs of things that just broke. Luckily they were mostly under warranty.
Loved how they drove. Hated how unreliable they were.
In comparison the 1st gen Honda CR-V only needed a new brake fluid float in the 6 years I had it. But TBF it also needed valve clearances adjusted every 15k miles. Which I don’t count because that was scheduled maintenance.
Bennysailor22@reddit
If you’re looking for used cars Toyota, Honda,or maybe Mazda ,Subaru for cost of ownership
Historical-Sherbet37@reddit
My best friend from High School is a Porsche Tech that owns his own shop. Bread and butter is Porsche engine and transmission rebuilds. He'll also do Mercedes and Audi work, and BMW if it's an otherwise established customer.
I bought an Audi A8L TDI a while back, and it only goes to him for service. It's got its quirks definitely. The brakes have to be replaced when they look like half the pad is left, but that's because there's a sensor buried in the pad. It has to have a maintenance light reset "by the dealer" every 15k, but that's easily done by any good mechanic with a vag-com. The radar for the adaptive cruise control can be finicky, but with the proper scan tool you can usually get pointed to the offending sensor and clean it and be back in business.
There are different levels of German cars just like any other brand. If you're looking at the lower series of cars (Mercedes A/B/C class, BMW 300 series, Audi A3/A4) you should just spend the same amount of money and get a high trim package Japanese car. As you get into the higher classes of German cars, the quality is noticeably better.
Rubaiyat39@reddit
I am sorry to offer an “it depends” answer but there is a range between basic German utility type cars (a mass produced, super reliable mid range BMW 3 series for instance) and many of the more boutique/performance type vehicles like a Porsche 911 or a BMW M3 or Audi RS6 and so on.
This second set of German vehicles is definitely more expensive to run and maintain even when it’s just routine maintenance because they are smaller production models and often made with more high performance parts, then add the up charge for German maintenance per hour over the basic American and Japanese car rates and you can see why this goes down hill so quickly.
But the foundational issue here which underlies your question - whether you meant it or not - is whether you want a more performance focused German car and do all these people with complaints about maintenance costs own the performance versions versus the basic uninteresting models.
Higher performance cars are always more finicky, even American and Japanese ones, and on top of that they are often driven more aggressively and pushed to their limits more often so it should hardly be a surprise when parts wear out and fail more often then on your run-of-the-mill grocery getter Toyota Camry.
I’m not sure this answers your question but maybe it will provide some insight on whether buying a German car is right for you - and I think that’s what you want to know anyway.
For the record I’m the owner of a 2009 BMW M3 coupe and, while it hasn’t been maintenance free, I’ve never been a happier vehicle owner as I am now. So don’t be scared, get a car you love and just budget for slightly higher maintenance bills and relish the enjoyment of driving a fun car when everybody else trudges along in their boring econo-boxes!
Mike312@reddit
Hi, owner of 2 (previously 3) BMWs.
What people typically hear about are the exceptions, like when I say I spent $8k on my 2014 435i this year. That's...like, what some people spend on a car.
Breaking that amount apart was $4.5k on gaskets. Those gaskets are (in my experience) a 10-year maintenance item. The car is good for another 10 years now.
$2k of that was tires and an alignment. I'm going to put nice tires on my car, no matter what I drive. In college I had a $1k shitbox with $1,500 tires.
The other chunk of that was random odds and ends either I DIY fixed (coolant return line, wipers, coolant cap) or had a local indie fix that I had been putting off for a year or...three (brake fluid flush, swapping rear springs, issue with the drivers door handle, etc).
So yes, as one-year (really, 2 months) worth of expenses, that sounds crazy. But when I say the previous two years of expenses was just oil changes, and the next 2 years of expenses will just be oil changes (and maybe brakes?), well, nobody remembers the guy saying "mine costs me $75/yr".
In terms of mileage, I'm not the best source. My 2008 has 144k mi. It drives fantastic, everything works (except the passenger seat occupancy sensor in the summer), no squeaks, no rattles. I did the gaskets on that in 2018, and the only reason I don't think it'll hit 200k simply because we only put about 3k mi/yr on each of our cars and it'll be a 40 year old car by then. My 2014 has 72k mi, and I've only put about 1.5k mi on it so far this year. It'll likely be another 7 years for me to get it to 100k. But its also smooth, quiet, no problems (for now, anyway...).
The thing is, they don't just fall apart out of nowhere. Like OP said, they fall apart due to neglect. Everyone trades in their BMW when they see a big repair bill. If you're buying one at an age divisible by 10, check to see if the gaskets are done. If you're buying one at a mileage divisible by 15k, probably going to need tires; divisible by 20k, probably going to need brakes. So, if you're buying an older used BMW, be ready to throw out $3-6k to get it up to date on maintenance. If you're buying a newer one, do what I did with my 2014 and buy it at 4 years old, low mileage, fresh out of factory warranty where any issues up to that point were covered. Don't splurge on CPO (we did that for the 3rd one), we had zero issues and paid a $3-4k premium. Set aside $250/mo - not that you'll spend $250/mo, but that amount annualized - as that's what it seems to work out to for maintenance.
papisilla@reddit
More expensive to repair. Also the service intervals are a lot more serious but if you keep up on everything they're fine. If you go to Europe you see lots of BMWs and Mercedes etc that are being properly maintained by people that know how to service them and they are fine. As far as safety they are generally very stable and safe. Just stay far away from the British cars like range Rovers or mini coopers if you want anything even slightly reliable
juliankennedy23@reddit
Yes
ThirdSunRising@reddit
I bought a BMW Z3 with 80k on it. It immediately blew a head gasket so I had the whole cooling system done: all hoses and belts and thermostat and water pump, the whole thing was perfect and it was solidly reliable. Rear struts started clunking, needed those. Needed a window regulator and had to replace an o ring at the oil filter adapter. Apart from that, perfectly solid. So it required more work than a Japanese car and a lot more work than my current Chevy, but nothing unreasonable and nothing worth advising against buying such a car for yourself.
Here’s the trick: get a simple one. Don’t buy the M3, just get the regular 3 series. Their performance cars are the troublesome ones. Their more ordinary cars are still quite nice but also a lot easier to own.
Mr-Chrispy@reddit
I have had numerous issues with modern german cars, vw and audi and swear i will not buy another one. No dipstick to check the oil, water pumps made if plastic, exhorbitant dealer service costs. My 1992 golf was great but these modern ones are trouble. But, they are very nicely finished and have good paint. . I would go with a lexus or acura if you don’t like the basic cars
tomilgic@reddit
Just buy a bmw with a b58 engine, reliable, good power, good fun
haditwithyoupeople@reddit
In my limited experience Porsche's tend to have the best reliability, except for the ones where the engine self destructs. Those need to be avoided or fixed.
Other than that German cars are quite bad to maintain, particularly after 100K miles. They will go to 200K, but at a very high maintenance cost. Volkswagons seem to to be terrible after 100-120K miles. I don't get why people by those things. It may as well be a Hyundai.
Toyota and Honda for reliability and lowest cost of ownership over time.
Tangboy50000@reddit
From helping friends that have had BMWs, Mercedes, and VWs, yes. Replacement parts usually don’t fit right out of the box for some reason, and usually require some kind of grinding or making a hole. There’s a ridiculous amount of specialty tools for stuff like holding a part while twisting another part. Like others have said, you usually have to remove a ton of other shit to get to what you need to work on or replace.
common_sensor@reddit
I owned a 2003 VW Jetta and it was OK for the first 4-5 years, after that it was a money pit. Wife owned a 2004 BMW 330i, very few issues with it, but she totalled it. After the Jetta I got a 2013 BMW X1 i35, great car, only real issue was the water pump every 30-40 thousand miles, first time covered by warranty, second time I had to pay for it. No other major issues, I sold it at 120000+ miles. Wife got a 2014 BMW i3 with Rex, no issues, very cheap maintenance cost. My recommendation, VW - no, Audi - no, BMW - yes but with the inline 6 engine or electric
Guscrusher@reddit
Yup. Wonderful vehicles, though.
msstatelp@reddit
Had a 2013 BMW X1. Fun car to drive and really enjoyed it. Took it to a local BMW shop for oil changes and such. Oil changes were about $120 every 5000 miles.
Had to have the radiator replaced at 100k because BMW uses radiators with plastic tanks (as does most everyone). BTW the A/C condenser is part of the radiator so it was $3500.
Valve cover started leaking oil. Had to replace it. $3000 because you have to take the top of the engine off to replace the valve cover and gasket.
One day I had my windows down and sun roof open. Went to close them. They won’t close. Exterior lights quit working. Had to replace a module inside the car that controls all that. $3000.
Sunshade inside the car that covers the sunroof stuck open. Sunroof will still open and close but sunshade won’t. Quoted $2500 to replace the complete sunroof assembly because there’s no way to fix just the shade.
Went to crank it one day and the dash lit up like a Christmas tree. Made it to the local Honda dealer and traded it on a Honda Accord.
President_Camacho@reddit
My used German car with repairs cost me more monthly than a new Japanese one. I'd never buy a German car if I was at all concerned about money. My dad loved his German car but it was totaled when its VANOS system needed a $6000 fix to be compatible with emissions regulations. These cars weren't driven hard at all. I will never buy another. They're ticking time bombs.
iamcleek@reddit
the two Audi A4s i had were fine. there were things that needed fixing but they were mostly under warranty so it didn't matter.
i sold my A4 convertible when the rear window started coming loose from the cloth roof. there's no real fix for that, you just have to replace the whole roof.
Competitive-Ad861@reddit
My Volkswagen is kinda a piece of shit and I bought it new and halved all service intervals
I also have 50% more power than stock but that shouldn’t make an alternator fail or 3 water pumps or the radiator crack
I think I need a fourth water pump too now at 107k miles
AdSecure2267@reddit
They’ll be fine if you treat them like an airplane. You need to be proactive in service and repairs. You don’t wait for something to break
Filmore@reddit
German vs Japan in thinking:
German: if we make the preventative I've maintenance clear, the car should last a long time.
Japan: people are going to skip maintenance so let's over-engineer parts to account for that.
Japanese cars last a long time time due to over engineering. German cars last a long time when you keep up preventative maintenance.
If you buy a German car that is as treated like a Japanese car you are going to be in for a world of $$$.
As a side effect you pretty much buy the features you pay for with German, and you buy flexibility in maintenance with h Japanese. To get German features in a Japanese build is going to cost you $$$$
Relevant_Scheme4998@reddit
Yes
Electronic-Youth-286@reddit
I had a 7th gen VW Golf Sportwagon with the DQ250 DCT. I was looking at a ~$1000 CAD job to replace the oil at the 60k mark, which is about 1/17th of the value of the car at the time. It can be bonkers economics at times.
memeistscum@reddit
from my experience my 1995 325i has been cheaper than my brothers 2002 toyota camry. bought mine for less than his. directly after he bought it he needed to drop 5k on struts and a bunch of random broken shit but i only needed injectors and a few gaskets.
Imaginary-Rub5758@reddit
They are if you have no warranty and if you don’t maintain them.
Admiral_Ackbar_1325@reddit
Have you tried driving a Honda? I just bought an older V6 Accord coupe and it drives quite nice, somewhat sporty, pretty quick acceleration. I'm with you on Toyota's, I don't like the way they drive, they just feel boring and lifeless.
torspice@reddit
German engineers design with the expectation that users will adhere strictly to the intended guidelines. Regular maintenance.
In contrast, Japanese engineers ask themselves, “How will customers actually use this? What can we do to prevent issues if it’s used outside of ideal conditions?”
And indeed, most German cars are built to last—if they’re used exactly as instructed, within precise specifications, they’ll likely endure for a long time. Step beyond those parameters, however, and failure is more likely.
Japanese products, on the other hand, are typically designed to withstand much tougher treatment, often performing reliably even when pushed beyond their official specifications.
lovepontoons@reddit
So before all the BS gets thrown around I wouldn’t by a German car that has over 100k with zero maintenance history. If you can find one that has actually had service done German cars are great and last a long time. Now it comes to labor and parts yes labor times are usually higher and parts can be more expensive. My whole family drives German. Every single one i verified service history and did full PPI before purchase. They know that’s the only way I’ll touch them. So in conclusion with some due diligence and research not all Germans are money pits.
Patient-Ad-6964@reddit
Yes. So done with them. I like cars that aren’t in the shop all the time racking up expensive repairs
swoop1156@reddit
Get a CPO Porsche. You get an unlimited mileage warranty, plus 2 years coverage on top of remaining factory warranty. Find a '22 model that has depreciated heavily, maintain it per specs, and it'll be badass forever.
Even better, get a 958.2 Cayenne Diesel and never worry about shit.
slowenuff@reddit
You choose reliable or you choose fun.
I've owned 2 High mileage Bmw 5 series they were both fun to drive but neither was reliable and they were the definition of money pits.
I'm now on my second high mileage E class Benz. The first I'd likely still have if someone hadn't backed into it. They don't corner as well but they're more reliable and much easier to work on.
Daddysgettinghot@reddit
My '95 BMW e34 with the 2.5 inline six has been very durable and easy to repair. Expensive new but a good value overall.
erflings@reddit
I had a ‘07 3-series. In terms of ergonomics, performance, and style, the car was amazing. The warranty for the first 4 years was great, and there were warning signs this car would be at the shop a lot, but bmw took care of almost all the maintenance costs during that time. But after year 4 when the turn signal went out, I had to replace the entire headlight assembly for $800, whereas I replaced the bulbs in my Toyota myself for $10. The back windows motor failed on New Year’s Eve and had to drive home in the freezing cold because it wouldn’t go up… $500. The air conditioner failed at 9 years and cost $1000 (used from a salvaged car). The airbag sensor failed and cost $1200. The oil pan and gasket failed for $1600. It felt like I’d get the car running perfectly for a couple months before another $1000 repair popped up. I put about $12k into maintenance over the last 3 years (owned for 10 years). The final straw was the leaking sunroof, which was $3000 when the car was only worth maybe $6k. I sold the bmw and bought a Lexus IS afterwards, and while no repair costs, the car was not as fun and only kept it for about 3 years.
purpleboarder@reddit
German cars are more fun to drive than their reliable Japanese counterparts (Acura/Lexus). Your tolerance for more frequent/unscheduled repairs, that will be more expensive will decide how much you value the 'sporting/driving experience'.
As you mentioned, you can get reliable and luxury in a Japanese luxury car. It's the 'fun' that will be a little short in that equation. But not by much.
There's a reason why used German luxury cars are so cheap. Let that sink in. If you can afford the expensive repairs, and don't mind expensive repairs, then get a German car. Nobody can put a price on YOUR fun, except YOU...
Academic_Dare_5154@reddit
German engineering is designed for precision, not durability. The precision requires strict adherence to maintenance schedules, which is why so many used German cars have a bad rep.
They're also quite expensive to fix. $1500 for a parking brake.
My last German vehicle was a 2007 VW Passat, which I loved when it was in my garage, not the repair shop.
TDK_ENIGMA@reddit
Yes they are. They're over engineered parts are stupid the labor is overly complicated, so if you're taking it in expect a high rate. If you're doing it yourself expect to buy a few special tools cuz sometimes they throw shit in that'd just like what the fuck.
Deezn00ts69@reddit
I have 4 Mercedes of various model years.
There's good years and there's bad years. On a good year the most I ever spend is whatever the cost is for an oil change. On a bad year...shit can start piling up. I'll give you the example of my E Class. I've had this car for 17 years, and it has about 350k kms on it now. Last year is what I'd consider a "bad year", where the total bill of repairs and maintenance ended up being something like $1300 CAD. It needed a new battery, a new key, new brake pads, new control arms, new sparkplugs, and the routine oil change. The year before that though, my total bill was just $150 CAD for the routine oil change.
The thing with German cars, as many have stated in these comments, is that they have fairly strict maintenance schedules, are complex to work on, and tend to have expensive parts. This stuff tends to result in expensive maintenance as well, especially if you're someone who prefers to only get their shit done at the dealership.
What happens with a lot of German cars is that their owners only want to be there for the ups and don't care for the downs, either because they can't pay for it or because they don't want to pay for it. Because of this, they tend to do one of these things:
Neglect the maintenance and let the costs pile up, then sell the car to somebody who has the money, ambition, or both to get that stuff done.
Neglect the maintenance and only fix it enough for it to be drivable or for the issues to be conveniently invisible, then sell the car to some sucker who doesn't know any better and thinks they're getting a killer deal.
Sell the car before expected large maintenance items become a thing to worry about, effectively offloading that cost to the next customer, who will be happy for a year or so before running into said large maintenance items.
With this in mind, it's always extremely important when buying a German car to always look at the maintenance history. This matters a lot more than mileage. Obviously, you want a lower mileage car because high mileage maintenance is a pain, but I would rather get a high mileage German car with a thorough maintenance history + receipts over a low mileage one with an inconsistent maintenance history. I can trust the former has been well kept and well maintained and thus won't give me shit that I'm not prepared for.
It's also extremely important to do some proper research on the car you're looking into. You have to know the potential issues of xyz car you're looking at and what you should be expecting to pay for common maintenance and repair items. For example, I wouldn't jump into a W204 C63 AMG without knowing about model years that are affected by the head bolt issue or about the mileage and expected cost for replacing the cam lifters and adjusters, which are a common maintenance item on this car. Higher end stuff like top trim E Classes and most S Classes also require you to do your research about air suspension related things. A lot of people just jump into German cars without doing any sort of research because of the novelty of driving something more upmarket than the family Camry. This can and will backfire spectacularly on you. Look before you leap. Know your shit before you get into shit.
To conclude, it's perfectly possible to get a German car that'll hang with Toyotas when it comes to longevity, but you have to do your due diligence before buying the car. You have to have some passing knowledge on the potential issues and larger maintenance items with the car, and you have to find and maintain a good relationship with an independent mechanic who specializes in German cars. These cars can be expensive, but if you've bought the right car in the right condition with the right service history, you can and will have years where all you ever have to spend money on is an oil change.
hashishiyah@reddit
A ford is way more of a money pit than most german cars unless you are looking at the complete lemons like bmws with n20 or n63 engines. Coming from someone who's worked at a ford dealership and bmw and mercedes benz dealers. I would rather buy a 10 year old german car than anything ever made in america. Just common sense still applies, youre going to spend more on parts and labour vs other manufacturers. If you know a thing or two and can do your own maintenance and basic repairs you will save some money. Just dont go buy a 7 series or you will definitely complain and say its a money pit. If you stick with something like a 3 series or c class with a known reliable engine like n52 or 271, it will definitely cost you less than maintaining a ford
frank-sarno@reddit
In my experience, it was. Purchased a certified 2004 BMW 3-series for my (now ex) wife. It was a great car mechanically when it ran. But every single repair was 4-5 times more than for my Infiniti G35 at the time. We maintained it and had stuff fixed under warranty. When the warranty ran out it got a lot more expensive. The last straw was when the driver-side taillight went out, coincidentally a week after the taillight on my G35 went out. For my Infiniti it was about $25 to repair. For the BMW it was $400. I KID YOU NOT. Some control board had friend so replacing the $10 bulb lasted just an hour. I honestly thought they were joking when they quoted me the price.
What you're paying for versus the Infiniti were things like how the doors sounded when they closed and how it accelerated. It wasn't a high-end BMW but it felt a lot more luxurious than the Infiniti. If you trade in your cars or lease then it sort of makes sense if you like those types of details. I tend to keep my cars for years though so didn't work for me.
AdministrationIcy368@reddit
Yes.
SmallusMcPeen@reddit
Basically, it depends entirely on previous owners and whether or not they took care of it. A 5 owner car? Mhmm. A one owner car with maintenance records? Will be like taking care of any other car. It is worth paying the little extra upfront for the car that has, let's say, already had the timing chain and guides done than paying less for the one that needs the job now
Legal-Paper-9817@reddit
Don't ever buy a German car. If you have to have one lease it and dump it.
Poogle607@reddit
It's going to vary on the model and age more than the county of origin. A modern plain Jane VW Golf, Tiguan, etc is no more complicated than a Focus or Escape. An old 90's BMW is less complicated than anything modern, even a new Corolla. A new BMW X7 is certainly going to be far more expensive to maintain and repair than, say a new Lexus TX.
AllergyHater@reddit
I used to own a 328i 2011, an amazing car. Fun to drive (I know 335s are more, I am not talking about that), incredibly reliable and forgiving when you are late on maintenance. I mean I still did the maintenance but I waited for better weather. It was fun to work on that car too, now I drive 330i 2023. Not as fun but still a good car. If you keep up with the maintenance they are amazing cars and I do recommend you work on them yourself unless it's too involved, then I'd suggest going to an indie shop. Never take it to the dealer for maintenance.
ProtonicDeodorant@reddit
I've had my 2006 Golf since 2017. Haven't had anything bad happen. Note that I live in Europe and build quality might be better.
ThrowbackDrinks@reddit
Here's my experience, as a single data point. I bought a BMW 335i back in the day, it was new. \~80k miles on it before I sold, and never once had a single repair done on it.
Drove it into service for an Oil change at scheduled intervals, which due to the maintenance plan at that time they didn't even charge for. That car literally never cost me a cent that wasn't spent on gas money and insurance.
In comparison I've had numerous small issues with Toyota's, and Subarus I've owned, that required service within the warranty period. Generally minor issues, but not "nothing".
So it is certainly possible to have an experience with a german car as a reliable vehicle. That said, I don't think my experience is typical. And the problem is, when they do break (EVERYTHING mechanical will eventually wear out or degrade with time and use) they are more expensive typically than USDM and Asian built vehicles.
themoop78@reddit
But.... My Wallet!
nortonj3@reddit
I have an Audi A8L with the 12 cylinder (W12) it's 2 to 5 k every few months for repairs and maintenance.
but, I had to rent a Toyota Corolla in 2009, when somebody pulled out in front of me with less than 10,000 miles on my new jetta TDI.
never again, the car was so lame and reliable. I gladly pay more for a German car because they are more pleasant/fun to drive.
if I spend two hours a day driving and commuting, in 5 days, that's 10 hours. in two weeks, that's 20 hours. so, in two weeks, two days. that's 1 day, 24 hours. about every 2 weeks, you sitting behind a wheel for a day.
might as well enjoy it. German cars do it the best.
ClearTeaching3184@reddit
Yes
TenderestFilly1869@reddit
Depends wholy on the model and engine choices just like any car IMHO.
I have an 09 E350 and a 17 330i and they are like chia pets, you put in water and oil and regular maint (there both at 80k + miles) and they are just fine had less issues then many cars Ive had American and newer.
I also own a LR Disco II 2004 and a E38 7 Series, they are maint queens and if you dont give them a swift tickle of the muffler and a soft kiss, some random shit is breaking or a part prematurely wearing out, keeping in mind they are 30 years old now, but I dont mind owning these as some one said $5,000, $15,000 (in maint and repair) $100,000 cars, because I love my 7 to death and my Disco.
Oddly my Jagaur XF Sportbreak (2020) has been rock solid and its not only British but a jag. The S/C 6 makes me nut when I gun it around corners.
Heck I know a generation or 2 of Honda Odyssey and Pilot the trans will shit out from under them as well as an MDX, and nissans for being Japanese as well as accordingly Nissans are known for tons of issues Id say more so then many Germans.
piggybank21@reddit
Outside of people who can/willing to wrench, German cars are made for people who can afford them new and drives them only in the warranty period.
If you can't afford them new, you can't afford them used. An $100K new German car still requires the maintenance that's expected of an $100K car. If you do your own work, that's fine, but that's not the general population.
I_Sniff_Hot_Dudes@reddit
I got my first German car after being scared to for a while. It’s a 2020 a5 Audi. I did some mods, and drive it hard. Reliability has been great. I do maintenance myself. Just follow whatever plan they give or you can find. I don’t like Mercedes, for Audi, anything 2017+ should be good, and bmw anything with either “30i or 40i” will be good. 30i is for b48, and 40i is for b58
Working_Beat7108@reddit
You want a more refined driving experience. Try a Lexus. Toyota and BMW have been partners for making parts for years
redbushsixtynine@reddit
Yes, even the German transmission in my Japanese truck is twice as expensive to maintain.
Tendie_Tube@reddit
You can have the cheap interior and basic driving dynamics of a Toyota in exchange for reliability/durability or you can buy a car marketed to people who want something exciting to drive that blows up the engine every 5 years. Your choice but make no mistake there is no in between.
nolongerbanned99@reddit
My wife and I leased new bmws for decades. Even leased, with the cost of tires and brakes, they are expensive. Japanese is the way to go for reliability. You won’t have the same driving experience and ‘gravitas’ of a German car, but you also won’t be wasting money for no reason. Try Subaru.
Legitimate-Leg-9310@reddit
A starter in my Ford ranger was $200. A starter in my BMW 750iL was $1200.
Capable_Serve7870@reddit
Let's put it this way. If you can't afford to maintain a Ford, you damn sure can't afford to maintain a European car.
pessimistoptimist@reddit
Generally speaking, they are expensive to work on and the parts are expensive. The word I have heard is that they are over engineered with little consideration for repair...like a part that generally need be replaced at some point in a car requires half the engine to be ripped apart and put together again....making a 200 dollar repair a 2000 dollar repair plus the cost of the part. A couple mechanics I know love/hate changing oil of some of the models because there is a process of warming to car to temp to get the cpu to read oil levels then change the oil and then go through a process to get the car to recognize the oil has been changed so it doesn't throw a code. This makes a simple oil change take twice as long which is more money (love) but if you don't do things just right on the cpu side you have to Putz around until it works (hate). New, I don't think they are bad but once they get old and start developing issues the costs go up dramatically. I know the same can be said for all cars but for German cars it seems to be more costly.
_TheRealKennyD@reddit
It depends (heh). Some German cars are worse than others. I think the chief issue is many people come from an old Honda Accord and they change the oil sometimes but have never heard of a cabin air filter, you're going to be in shock maintaining a german car. You can neglect a Japanese car and it will most likely be okay. If you neglect a german car it will make you aware that you fell short. I would personally recommend any BMW with a six cylinder engine (should have the number 40 in the model name these days). Those are proving to be relatively robust. Get a CPO one with a warranty and you'll be okay.
BudFox_LA@reddit
I’ve owned 5 - 3 VWs and 2 BMWs. If you can’t adhere to a basic maintenance schedule or if you are broke or too cheap to use premium gas or oil or whatever then they probably aren’t for you. By enlarged though, they haven’t been too bad.
mandatoryclutchpedal@reddit
To maintain my German car. I change the oil every 10k I change the brake fluid every couple of years. I change the lsd fluid every couple of years. None of these services are any pricier or more complicated than any other car.
I have a sporty car with brakes appropriate for a sporty model. Cost is comparable to cars with comparable brakes.
Where does the German tax come in? Stupid engineering decisions such as thermostat/water pump designs. Let say you are doing an oil change or adding oil and a a little spills down and touches the gasket of the thermostat then the leaks begin and eventually its 1500 to change a combined thermostat/water pump unit. You would think the Germans would look at the data and rethink how they do such items. Nope. "It works as designed and it's not designed to survive an oil drop" Just for shots and giggles, even their EVs suffer from waterpump failures. That's the German way.
Others mention Audis. Let's say you need to...anything up front. Your are removing the entire front fascia. Bulb? Remove front fascia. Kitten? Remove front fascia. 10mm socket that fell after discovering everything requires a triple square? Remove front fascia.
Keep in mind a lit of things are model dependent. However is all else fails, Remove front fascia.
You will hear legends and stories from the German car fan boys.
Some legend of an engine that is bullet proof or they had some car 10 years ago that made it 300k.
I plan to enjoy my car until it becomes a nuisance and embarrassment. Fortunately my car is a blast to drive so I'm willing to trade some security for hilarity
Art92101@reddit
Wait til it comes time to buy a battery, you have to use the precise brand battery or your electrical system may not work properly.
I'd only buy a used CPO with plenty of miles and years left til expiration. However, my neighbor dumped her BMW 5 series asap as it was costing a fortune in repairs. Then she bought the china made Lincloln Navigator.
No more Germans for me. Too much time, trouble & $$
My_friends_are_toys@reddit
BMW, Mercedes, Alfa, Audi, Cadillac, and any similar car are considered money pits by people who see the cost of owning one. None of those cars are more or less reliable than say Honda or Toyota...the only difference is Japanese parts are easier and cheaper to get than German or Italian parts.
If you want to own a BMW or Mercedes, do your research. Every car has a common problem. For example, I typed in "Common problems on a 2021 Honda Accord" and google spat out that there are recalls regarding seat belts and airbags, with reports of prematurely worn wheel bearings and EGR valve issues. An EGR valve on a Honda is about $80 whereas a BMW EGR is about $300.
Go into buying a luxury brand knowing you're going to pay for that brand. I bought an Alfa Romeo Giulia knowing that I was going to pay close to $300 for an oil change that only cost $75 on my older Mitsubishi.
Do your research on the cost of owning one and get an extended Warranty.
MrBiggleswerth2@reddit
Yes and no. Maintenance/repairs when needed can be expensive. Most people who actually purchase them are reaching above their means. If you do all your general maintenance and just take care of them, they can be very reliable cars.
Appropriate_Cod5941@reddit
They’re not cheap cars to maintain but I’d recommend doing as much research as possible into the specific models you’re interested in. Look at common issues, preventative maintenance and if you’re not willing to DIY, then possible labor costs of these items.
Some people can put up with these cars and some don’t. It just depends on whether you see a vehicle as a hobby or basic transportation.
One_Shallot_4974@reddit
The nuance is it depends on a few easy to read details
- How much was it new. Operating costs are built in consideration of its new value
- Is it reliable? some models are more reliable then others. A quick google usually tells the tale
- Is it a performance oriented model/trim? If yes, it may be shocking expensive to repair simple things.
- Do you have service records/history? A poorly maintained German car is an expensive car.
I have owned German cars where the average repair was under $500 and cars where it was over $2,000. You have to do your homework and can't expect a toyota experience.
HockeyOrDie@reddit
I’ve owned Mercedes and it was absolutely costly to fix compared to other brands. The reliability was the fine, but when something went it costs 3x as much to fix as a Honda. While the car was new it was fine, but as the cars age and the shine wears off, I was left feeling ripped off constantly.
The quality of German cars has also fallen off of a cliff in the last few years imo. I was partial to Mercedes, but I would never buy one of the recent iterations. Keeping my Honda 2.0t until it proves it’s not bulletproof.
GuitarEvening8674@reddit
My old neighbor who was a doctor, owned a bmw and it broke down after driving it about 60,000 miles. He said the repair costs would be the price of a new car, so he bought a Corolla and let the beemer sit
Prestigious-One2089@reddit
did you doctor friend never change the oil? or buy a shitty used one? there is so much left out of this story.
ButtholeSurfur@reddit
My mother in law had her turbo completely go in her BMW around 60k miles. It was very expensive to fix so she got rid of it but it certainly wasn't more to fix than the car was worth.
WorkerEquivalent4278@reddit
Short answer no. If you maintain the car per the schedule, and get a competent local mechanic to work on it or do the work yourself you will be fine. If you expect to neglect the car like a Toyota you will soon be stranded somewhere. If you go to the dealer for anything you will be poor. Also, never buy a US only model. Get something like a 3 series that’s sold worldwide. I’ve had and maintained several German cars and all of them were reliable and fun to drive.
JediGRONDmaster@reddit
Hondas have (imo) much better interiors than Toyota and are almost as reliable, and same with Mazda
Jimmytootwo@reddit
Yes. Thats why they depreciate so much
Andrewofredstone@reddit
I had 2015 C class merc. One air strut went, car had to be towed to the dealer. Cost to repair was 24k. Car was later traded in at a ford dealership for 22k.
Never again.
Rapom613@reddit
Please DM me. I have about 15 years working service for German brands, and am a huge enthusiast
It will be faster to answer any questions that way
Letscurlbrah@reddit
But then no one here benefits from that knowledge.
Rapom613@reddit
As you wish.
There are a few big things with German cars that you need to be mindful of when comparing them to American / Asian cars.
TL;DR - They advance and change more, Germans don’t keep their cars as long and drive them far less, they are designed to prioritize performance over economy. They are designed with the understanding that they will be maintained by a highly trained technician, exactly on time, with high quality parts.
First is that they are more engine / transmission specific than others, mainly (imo) due to the fact that they update their powertrain offerings much more frequently than other car companies, especially the Japanese.
For example, when the Honda pilot launched as a 2003, it was powered by a 3.5l SOCH J series engine. Now, 22 years later, it is still powered by a 3.5l soho J series engine. That engine has received updates like direct injection, but it is still very much the same engine for over 20 years. In contrast, a Mercedes Benz M/GLE class (they went through a naming convention change) in the same timeframe, has had roughly 12 engines (going off of a combination of Wikipedia and memory) NOT counting diesel, ROW offerings, or AMG variants
So while all Honda pilots may be good, with the Mercedes it’s a little more complicated than that.
They typically have more systems in them. Even if said systems are reliable, and they generally are, more stuff = more points of failure. Your air suspension will never fail on your pilot or highlander, because it doesn’t have air suspension to fail. Another example is control arms. While a Honda accord has one lower control arm and a McPherson strut front suspension, an Audi a6 has a multi link suspension with 4 control arms. 4 times the number of bushings and 4 times the number of ball joints
While Japanese cars tend to prioritize low cost of ownership, that is not as big of a concern for German cars. The Germans typically do not design a separate vehicle for US market, the Japanese do, and the German brands tend to be more up market, thus cost of ownership is less of a concern to the initial buyer (which is who they are designing the car for) the suspension bushing all needing replaced at 70k miles is less of a concern to someone who buys a 80k car, so it is less of a concern during the design.
Your typical German only puts about 8k miles a year on their car, while a typical US driver is nearly double that at over 14k per the federal highway administration. Additionally the average age of cars in Germany is about 10 years, VS the average age of passenger cars in the US of 14 years. So we drive our cars on average 75% more, and keep them 40% longer. And being that the accord and Camry both have designs specific for the American market, this is factored in when they are built.
The Germans prioritize performance more than Most others, as their driving typically includes sustained high speed operation on the autobahn. Being able to safely travel at over 100 mph means that their brakes will be designed differently. I’ve only seen a hand full of German cars have warped brake rotors in over a decade of working in service departments. The 3 years I spent at a Honda dealership it was a daily occurrence, because the Hondas all use an undersized rotor for the car. Also the Asian and Americans will tell you rotors can be machined. German cars the rotors wear with the brake pads, and typically require replacement as a set. The German cars would rather have a higher cost of ownership, in exchange for reliable consistent braking performance at triple digit speeds.
German cars can handle abuse, Japanese cars can handle neglect. German cars will typically tolerate regular high load situations (hard acceleration, sustained high rpm use, hard braking etc) much better than an American or Japanese car. In America it is rare for a car to be traveling over 60 or 70 mph, or to accelerate with full throttle, both of these are daily occurrences on the autobahn
If you know any Germans, they are very by the rules type people. The cars are designed with the thought that every service will be performed on time, as it should be done, by a quality trained individual, using high quality parts. When well maintained, German cars tend to be quite reliable (Save for a few examples that exhibit obvious design flaws) however, just because it is older, does not mean you can skip out on servicing.
In Germany, one cannot simply walk into a shop and start working on cars. It generally requires formal training, apprenticeship, qualification testing, and licensing. It is much more in line with becoming an aircraft mechanic in the US than a car mechanic, thus, their labor tends to be of higher quality. This is evidenced in the fact of if you read a lot of repair manuals for German brands, in contrast to American or Asian brands, it is assumed that the person reading the instructions knows what they are doing, and can competently complete repairs, as opposed to simply replacing a component.
For example, MB, Audi, and BMW all approve repairs to be performed to wiring. Cutting and splicing, overlays, etc, and will sell you wiring, pins, and connectors to support this practice. In contrast, Honda does not approve of this, and does not offer for you to purchase a connector from the manufacturer, it is expected that you replace the entire wiring harness, as they cannot assume the competency of the person performing the repair.
I have also found parts to be generally of higher quality. With most domestic brands, the parts store part is virtually the same if not better than what came on it new. With Asian cars it is typically of similar quality. With German cars however it does usually tend to be lower quality. This is not true for everything, but for example, the factory brakes on a Porsche are perfectly suited for track work, the same cannot be said for a Mustang or corvette in every case. Some yes, but not all.
So in recap, if you are the person who will take good care of you car either at a dealer or a very competent Indy, use high quality parts, not skip out on anything, and understand that systems like the suspension are designed with an 80k mile or so life expectancy, you will generally have a good experience with German cars, provided you do your homework and don’t buy one that has an obvious design flaw.
If you want to ask questions about any specific models, I’m happy to help
Letscurlbrah@reddit
Thanks for the thoughtful response.
Interesting_Visit483@reddit
As for how much mileage people put on their cars, you’re wrong. European countries count mileage as in ”how much does the average car travel”, while federal highway adminustration is ”how much does the average american person travel by car”. The ACEA method is less work but is not 100% accurate, as the mileage of cars that are more or less stationary (like an old 70 bel air etc) taken out a few times a year is takrn into thf calculation, driving doen the average.
https://www.api.org/news-policy-and-issues/blog/2022/05/26/top-numbers-driving-americas-gasoline-demand Api did the same method as acea, and the average sank to 11500 miles.
Sink_Single@reddit
My BMW’s (06 E91, 11 E70) were somewhat reliable, but when they did need work, it was expensive for parts and labour, even at an Indy shop.
If you’re worried about several thousands of dollars in repairs, you might want to stay away from used German cars out of warranty. I’d says my average repair was around $1k, several were $2k+
Friendly-Chipmunk-23@reddit
New German cars yes. Old German cars, not necessarily. I wouldn’t buy a new BMW or Audi in a million years.
Saiyakuuu@reddit
Bought a 2013 golf GTI, 160k km later the only major thing I needed to do was the timing chain.
Alternative-Bear-460@reddit
Buy one as you don't believe what people had told you The you can found out yourself.See that money is not a problem.
PiffWiffler@reddit
I think of most German cars as ‘perfect as can be for the duration of a lease’.
Make a premium feeling product that will be good enough to last 3 years without major issues. People with money will lease them, then in 3 years, lease another one. Reliability for The secondary market isn’t the goal.
BaboTron@reddit
If you’re tired of paying for repairs, a German car will only make that worse. If you want a cool German car, get a cheap old Corolla to serve you as the backup car.
IcyCucumber6223@reddit
It's all about how much you are willing to do yourself, if you are going to the dealer for everything then expect to start paying a lot into repairs after about 3-5 years.
vinceftw@reddit
Yes, they are generally more expensive. Get a Mazda. Looks premium without the massive price tag of a German car and they are reliable. Love my Hatchback 3.
Ghia149@reddit
The more technology in the car the more expensive it will be to repair, any luxury car is going to be more expensive than a mass market high volume people mover. Now you add lower total sales volume on those luxury cars and you have fewer aftermarket options for parts, fewer shops with expertise, fewer DIY youtube videos.
If you want a German car, buy one that's been well maintained, Don't buy the top spec with all the technology and bells and whistles, do the simple maintenance at home yourself. But even a VW shares a lot of parts with Audi... and so they aren't always terribly cheap. I've got a 16yr old Passat, 2.0 Turbo, 130K miles, it's been very reliable, have had a couple of items crop up around 100-120K, wasn't' cheap but they are known issues and just do it and move on. Car still drives and rides very nice, very little NHV (unlike most American cars that rattle and shake and sound like everything is coming apart once they are north of 75K miles.) so it's easier to pay the indy shop to take care of the intake carbon issue, or the difficult to access water pump, knowing it will be good for another 50k+ miles.
Abu_Everett@reddit
The concerns you have about American and German cars, as well as the driving dynamics of Toyotas, are the same that drive a ton of people to Honda. Honda has Toyota like reliability for most models, better interiors and far better driving dynamics. Honda can actually make FWD fun (check out the Integra if you don’t believe me).
The previous generation Accord with the 2.0T engine was a sleeper performance lite sedan.
DaveCootchie@reddit
I think it has to do with the type of German car. An expensive when new luxury model with tons of features and a complex powerful motor is going to be expensive to fix. Remember it was $80k new. But your transverse 2.0T Jetta or A4 isn't going to be much more complicated than any other economy or standard class of car. I haven't really had issues working on VWs since like 2004.
You will need some special tools though. If you buy a German car and want to do work on it get a set of triple square sockets right away!
E90BarberaRed6spdN52@reddit
So many are "over engineered" and if you have to go to the dealer parts and labor is ridiculous. If you can do you own work and research which models are more reliable you will be fine. I have an E90 with the N52 and a manual transmission. It is very very reliable overall.
Also a key here with mine and most German cars is proper and timely maintenance and using proper oil, coolant, etc.
If you don't maintain the vehicle it will have issues and will not take the neglect well as maybe a Camry or other Toyota or Honda product may,
So my car has over 155k miles on it and as the second owner or a well maintained E90 I expect to get 200-300k miles easily.
LoneWolf15000@reddit
The biggest flaw in the "money pit" logic is that people aren't comparing equivalent vehicles. They will compare a $100k (new) BMW to a $30k (new) Chevy when they are both used at worth $10k and then say German cars are junk. The $100k car is going to have more sophisticated systems (suspension, electronic, power massage seats, etc.) and those items break over time. Plus, by the time they have aged enough to be both worth $10k, the BMW is many years older.
All vehicle are made a cheap as the manufacture can get away with making them. But when you get into higher end cars, other factors become important as well like overall weight and balance. So then you compound the problem with plastic parts that are used for weight reduction, not just cost savings. And 15 year old plastic parts become brittle and fail.
Compare a Cadillac and BMW that were both $75k new and now are both worth $10k and you will find that one doesn't cost much more to maintain than the other.
Do German cars "self destruct" at 100k? Well, you answered the question yourself. They are quite reliable if you properly maintain them. And the proper maintenance includes changing out various gaskets, bushings, etc around 100k. It's in the owner's manual. If you do that, you can easily get 200k or more out of the vehicle. If you don't...then why be surprised when it fails?
Personally, I buy neglected high end cars that weren't properly maintained and now have "bad engines", do they proper maintenance (myself) and then I have a great car. Put 40-50k miles on it and then sell, often for more than I paid for it, and repeat the process.
amazinghl@reddit
My friend has a mid 2000 5 series that convinced me I should never own a BMW.
On any regular car, you would have a radiator hose and two hose clamps to connect the radiator to the block or head. On his BMW, it's plastic connectors, o rings, radiator hose, more connectors and o rings... WTF
thefiglord@reddit
son is a bmw mechanic - he paid 1200 for a z3 that needed new drive shaft - m3 he paid 10k for that was in accident- 740 dinan that he paid 6k for but he is in the process of doing engine overhaul- z4 and a 500sl he paid 2500 for - all cheap because the required maintenance was more than the car - since his time is “free” the cars were cheap - he thinks the cars are fine as long as you follow the maintenance- the m3 got in accident in the rain because the required tires were 250 each and the owner had put on $100 tires instead
joker_1173@reddit
Here's how it breaks down: someone buys/leases a new German car, they enjoy it, they love it. Then they turn the lease back in. The 2nd owner buys it, it's still expensive, they maintain it, enjoy it. Then they move on. 3rd + owners buy it because it's now cheap, they can't or won't afford the maintenance (and won't learn how to do it themsleves), so it gets clapped out and breaks so they sell it and whine online that it's always broken and a money pit.
idratherbebitchin@reddit
Not if you do your own work then they are just a nightmare.
Sobsis@reddit
Yes
Walksuphills@reddit
I’m not sure how German my Pueblo built VW Tiguan is, but it’s closing in on 100K miles largely trouble free. I did just have to get leaky sunroof drains fixed, but mechanically it’s been great. I’m not naive enough to think the next 100K will be as smooth, but the car’s paid off and I plan to keep it.
guyfromtn@reddit
I have a 2018 VW Atlas with 100k miles. It might die tomorrow, but it has been very exceptional.
PowRiderT@reddit
I forgot who said it, but someone said, "German cars are built like you're going to maintain them perfectly, do all the fluid changes on time, regular maintenance, etc. Japanese cars, on the other hand, are built like you will never maintain them."
luecack@reddit
Never had a problem with any of my Volkswagens that wasn’t handled under warranty/extended warranty. But I always had them serviced at the dealer and only 1 was modified (just and APR tune)
I had a Mercedes for the last 6 years, and besides it the auxiliary battery, the normal battery (regular maintenance) and a broken panoramic sunroof (that was expensive, crappy fiberglass frame cracked under the tension of the motors and cables it was intended to support) it was relatively trouble free.
That being said electrical issues with the heated and cooled driver seat would work intermittently depending on temp. No visible leaks but a noticeable coolant smell was prevalent. I decided to get rid of it while it was still worth something.
I’m back in a Japanese car for the first time in two decades.
Wouldn’t hesitate to get back in the VW/Audi product though.
MortimerDongle@reddit
My 2015 VW GTI hasn't required any significant repairs, and nothing out of warranty, but the transmission service (DSG) every 40k miles is expensive.
This isn't uncommon among German cars - reliability is fine, but routine maintenance is more expensive than most. And repairs tend to be expensive if something does happen.
Deatheturtle@reddit
On my MINI almost everything cost over 1000 dollars. A 'lazy' exhaust sensor was over 600 bucks.
ed_423@reddit
I wanted to get a e92 m3, but decided against it because I was scared of the Germans 😩 so I stick with jdm haha
methlabz@reddit
What did you wind up getting?
ed_423@reddit
V1 370z Nismo. Loved the car and been a z fan since I was a kid haha
teddyoctober@reddit
“the cost of acquisition drops significantly, but the cost of maintaining never comes down”
I’ve owned 13 Audi, 1 Porsche, 2 BMW, and 1 VW.
While I’ve never been hit with a bill I would consider outrageous, I do expect to spend about $5k per year maintaining and servicing my 3 current Audi’s and each year.
I’m currently in what I like to call “car repair season” and with 3 oil changes (1 per car), new pads/rotors, a new alternator, aux. water pump on one, battery and instrument cluster repair on another, rear differential bushings on the third, I’m almost at my $5k CAD expectation for the year.
I’m picking one up from my independent mechanic today, one more appointment on the 13th and another on the 18th, I’m extremely confident that I can exceed this budget.
It isn’t like this every year, but this year it is.
I love the cars, but this isn’t for the faint of heart.
CockroachStrange8991@reddit
Yes. It's that simple. Yes, yes they are.
Woodstock0311@reddit
Really depends on age. They are more expensive to work on no question. But if you get something 5yrs old or less you really won't be running into anything major unless the drove the hell out of it.
confusedWanderer78@reddit
I’ve owned 14 VWs and an Audi so I’m gonna speak to those.
The VWs up until my most recent one have been fantastic. The most recent was a 2019 Arteon that decided to put glitter in my oil at 32k. That has honestly spooked me off of new VWs. Could have been a one off, but I’m not one to take a chance with engine bearing self destruction. My favorite ones have been an ‘03 Jetta 1.8T. Just a damn awesome car and IMHO the best looking VW ever made. We outgrew it though once we had a kid since I’m 6’3”. Second favorite was a Passat wagon with the 2.0T. It started consuming a lot of oil at about 150k, that’s the only reason we got rid of it. Find one that had the consumption fixed and they’re a very comfortable, fairly quick family hauler that swallows up a lot of cargo. Some of the newer 2.0T engines have timing chain issues. So that’s something to look for, and the automatic transmissions from the early 00s were hot garbage.
Biggest recommendation I can give is to find something low mileage, with a complete service history. Their interiors are way better than what the Japanese build.
Oh and as for Audi: don’t bother. You can get a better equipped VW for far less money than any Audi. Only people who choose Audi over VW are rich people and brand snobs.
CrazyMarlee@reddit
I've pretty much owned at least one German car since 1979. Starting with Porsche, then Audi, BMW, Mercedes and back to Audi & Porsche currently. I had a simple rule with German cars, buy CPO with extended warranty and trade it in before the warranty ran out. The one time I didn't follow the rule, I ended up having a Mercedes transaxle replaced that failed two weeks after the warranty expired. It wasn't cheap even with an independent mechanic doing the work.
That was the only major repair I have had with a German car, although I have had a couple of minor issues with both Porsche and BMW.
I am currently not following my rule with my 2018 Audi A6 as it only has 30K miles on it and I love the 3.0t supercharged motor. I'll probably keep that until it falls apart.
I just had the all the rotors and pads done on my Toyota RAV4. It cost what 1 wheel would cost on the Porsche. So yeah, German cars can be a money pit.
whachis32@reddit
We have 2 VW’s ones a 2017 VW Touareg it’s the most German car acting, only ones issue atm a leak from under the dash. But it’s definitely more on the high side for servicing, $300 for oil and tire rotation, $1600 for good tires that can handle its weight, $2200 for brakes, $850 for a battery. My car is a ‘22 Taos it’s half of that for most of its servicing. We have 2 others in the family and neither along with ours had any big issues. It’s hard to find much that delivers the same experience besides another German car. So I’ll be buying a Porsche 718 next for my fun car. Income atleast 3x the base price for a new one is what I follow so it doesn’t hurt so bad. There are worse models and engines than others but most of what’s out right now are pretty solid from what I can tell.
LordBogus@reddit
Imo all cars have gone down in quality, best period was the late 80s - 90s. They used so much more wuality metal parts instead of plastic, less stuff on there so less would brake. Electrics were better. I can go on and on.
German cars arent more unreliable per se, they just have more complicated parts that dont tolerate late service.
A guy I know had a BMW for 2018 or something, and he didnt replace a part in a certain timeframe so his air suspensio didnt work anymore. So he had to replace the whole thing which was more expensive
SnowShoe86@reddit
Yes; moneypits. Especially those leaving warranty period. If you strongly desire a modern German ride, lease a new one and walk away at the end.
Go look for 8-10 year old German cars and notice how little of their original value they retained, look up common problems, and the repair costs.
DopeboySkrilla@reddit
I love my German cars, but I would never buy a new one. These lose their value extremely fast. Parts are a little more expensive but you get what you pay for. I only recommend Mercedes or BMW. BMWs usually have more stuff that can break so I would say Mercedes is the most reliable.
Soithascometothistoo@reddit
I remember hearing a story or joke that the Germans over engineered their cars/parts in a way so that everything would be absolutely perfect. Americans would just use a 50 cent gasket to address that issue.
The idea is, eventually they will need repairs and the parts will cost way more because of how meticulously they were designed and such.
BeautifulPudding911@reddit
German cars often get a bad rap as “moneypits,” but the reality is more nuanced. it’s true that models from BMW, Audi, Mercedes, and VW can be more expensive to maintain and repair than American or Japanese cars, but this doesn’t mean they’re inherently unreliable or doomed to fail. Modern German cars, especially those made in the past 5–10 years, are generally much more reliable than older models. With regular maintenance, they can easily last well beyond 100k miles without major issues. However, they do have a reputation for requiring more care and attention to stay in top shape, and repair like electronics, suspension, or the cooling system can be pricier due to the complexity and quality of parts.
If you’re not the DIY type, this is something to consider since German cars aren’t the easiest to work on yourself. An extended warranty can be a good idea for unexpected repair costs. That said, if you buy a well-maintained used car and stay on top of routine servicing, there’s no reason you can’t enjoy a German car for many years without breaking the bank. Models like the BMW 3 Series, Audi A4, or Mercedes C-Class offer a great balance of comfort, performance, and reliability, provided they’ve been cared for properly. Just make sure to do your research, get a pre-purchase inspection, and be prepared for a bit higher maintenance costs, and you should be fine.
NefariousnessCold144@reddit
Honestly, buy one and find out. My last German car was an audi s4. Car was great to drive and an absolute nightmare for everything else.
NotLarryN@reddit
Coming from a 2016 BMW 328 and 2011 Porsche 911 owner, I wouldn't own a 5+ year old german car if I am not able to do basic maintenance and repairs. Costs too much to have someone do them for you.
Kevinm2278@reddit
My 2013 GTI is going strong. Had a few leaks while it was under warranty. Fine now
ku_78@reddit
If you decide to pass on a German car, look at Mazda. Many believe that they provide a much more luxurious product for the price than Toyota or Honda and would fit your 3 priorities: reliable, comfortable,and fun.
heisman01@reddit
It depends on the previous owner, a lot are killed by improper maintenance. Like you can't take your bmw to a 5 min oil change place and pay 19.99 and it be ok.
brandon_c207@reddit
From my experience with my friend's German cars vs Japanese cars, here's my thoughts on the matter:
Japanese engineers design their cars to not have to necessarily follow the strictest maintenace schedules. You went 4,000 miles on the oil change instead of 3,000? You're fine. You used 5W25 generic oil instead of 10W30 Motul? All good. You have an 8, 10, 13, 14, and 15mm socket/wrench? You can probably do 99% of the maintenance on the car.
German engineers made the service schedule and you MUST stick to it. It says 3,000 miles between oil changes? Do the oil change at or before 3,000 miles. It says to use a specific oil? Use that oil. Be prepared for specialty tools.
If you follow a German car's maintenance schedule religiously, it will most likely treat you well, but this is true with any car usually to be totally honest. You just don't get the leeway you get with a Japanese maintenance schedule.
Chad_muffdiver@reddit
This answer is dependent yes. On what you consider reliable, for how long, and how much you’re willing to put into what most people would consider a ridiculous maintenance requirement schedule.
German cars are almost all luxury vehicles in the USA. This alone means parts will cost more and, usually, the parts are also somewhat better than normal things which adds to the cost. Brakes for example. You can go buy pads for a civic or accord at autozone for $20 that will work reasonably. Pads for even a base model merc that are off brand and low end will cost considerably more.
German cars can be somewhat reliable if you follow the maintenance schedule strictly. However, the maintenance is considerably more expensive and in depth than almost any American or Japanese car. I would say probably at least twice as much if not triple or quadruple. And there’s enough of that “maintenance” I would simply consider a repair that it’s sort of laughable.
German car drivers also seem to consider things like, say, a water pump to be maintenance every 100k. This is their sad attempt to convince themselves they didn’t buy a heap while the neighbors Corolla with 350k miles hasn’t had an oil change or new spark plugs in the last 100k and still runs better.
In the end the Beamer boys can say whatever they want, but even if you follow the maintenance schedules to a T a Camry will still outlast a 3 series with considerably less maintenance and repairs 9 times out of 10.
As an example I have personally had someone tell me his bmw was the best car ever and extremely reliable because it only ever left him stranded twice before he sold it with 90k miles.
B5_S4@reddit
I had BMW do a ppi on my E61 before I bought it, they said it needed $16k in work. The sales price was $4800. That was 5 years ago and I've spent $11,267.33 on service and maintenance including tires. But it's got 276,000 miles on it and if you divide 11k up over 5 years it is a lot less than any car payment on a new car.
Scary-Ad9646@reddit
When I had a BMW, I took it into the dealership because it kept thinking it was detecting a passenger and so kept telling the invisible person to wear a seatbelt (with nothing on the seat). They call me the next day and tell me the car needs a new transmission, replaced under warranty. It had 9k miles on it. It was in the shop for a month because they had to wait for the new part to come from Germany. I sold it when the warranty was up and have never considered buying a German car since.
munchies777@reddit
If you get a used one, it helps to know the first owner. I have a 2008 BMW 528 with 267k miles and repairs only started to tick up after 225k, and even now it is still manageable. No catastrophic issues, just maintenance and now some random things failing here and there. The car was originally owned by a family friend who was an engineer and did all the maintenance on schedule. I continued to do that, and the car is far more solid still than most others would be at this age.
The thing is though, I’d run away from one sitting in a shady used car lot because it is almost guaranteed to be messed up. People don’t want to pay for maintenance or are ignorant to it and then dump the cars when they have problems. If you get a used one, buy it 3rd party from someone who kept maintenance records and seems to understand the car.
Rattlingplates@reddit
Well my girlfriends brand new gla 250 (small low end cross over). The tranny blew up at 6000 miles and they are sealed units and can’t be taken apart or repaired. Took 1 months to get a new one from Germany and would’ve cost 11k to be repaired if not warrantied. We got an extended warranty but the day her warranty is up is the day we sell it.
Vegetable-Cherry-853@reddit
Yes. Case 1: I had an Audi A8 that had a problem with the windshield defroster thermostat. In the winter, you. Would have frost on the inside. Car wasn't drivable. Turns out it was a chip that was bad. Chip had to be air shipped from Germany, since no domestic sources existed. Total cost was $1000 to fix my chip. Case 2: Had a BMW 5 series that I slid into a curb on ice at 5mph. So much damage was done internally, but car looked great. Sensors, carriers, servos, etc all needed replacement. Total cost was $6k. Insurance was shocked and thought dealer was trying to scam them. Dealer insisted these were legit charges. Tldr, buy a cheap used German car and think of it as disposable. If it breaks, total it. Don't be the second owner if it's out of warranty
blewis0488@reddit
Just buy American, you'll get a better vehicle overall. Keep with Ford!
External-Bluejay8469@reddit
I think its their luxury cars are over engineered. But thats a thing with all luxury cars. I’ve owned several VWs over the decades. Reliability has never been a problem. Parts were a problem like 15 years ago in that they were expensive and harder to find. I think since their made in Mexico now its not much worse than any Toyota really.
wildhair1@reddit
Worst cars you can buy, throw in resale/trade in value at the end and get ready to lose your ass.
Gazdatronik@reddit
"The Maintenance." Doing oil changes and fluid flushes aren't going to stop stuff breaking that doesn't break in normal cars. My wife's Diamler-Chrysler built Grand Caravan has 225k on it now, and all the parts that have broken have the word "Siemens" stamped into them.
Human-Requirement-59@reddit
Been driving VW since 2017. On my third, due to choice. No issues at all. However, I do scheduled maintenance and follow all manufacturer recommendations for regular upkeep.
MikeWrenches@reddit
It's not an "it depends".
Even if you "keep up with maintenance", that maintenance is more expensive and on top of maintenance, parts are more expensive and labor more intensive. Every expense is multiplied.
ter4646@reddit
I wa once given. A 5 years old 100 000km BMW x1. After 12 months I had about 6 000 $ on repairs and more comming so I sold it. This car is an over engineered piece of shit. I mean why have a regular mechanical thermostat when you can have an expensive electronic one. This is just one of so many expensive choice the engineers made.
I can say that it was very fun to drive tough, but I was always scared something would break.
If you want a German car, get a new one or be sure to have some sort of warranty. You will spend time at the garage but at leat you will not have to spend more loney.
Ok-Consequence663@reddit
I got rid of a 1 series BMW in feb, I paid £750 for it when I bought it the year before. BMW are good because all the info wiring diagrams modules etc are readily available online. In a year of ownership I spent £150 on some tires, £85 on an o2 sensor, £30 for a pad slap. In my ownership it did a hard 25k I got bored of it so got rid. The major problem with bmw is the timing chains, on the petrol models they are on the front which makes it easier to change but the diesels it’s on the rear which is an engine out job.
I now have a 220 merc estate it’s old school doesn’t have a dpf, I paid the same princely sum of £750 for it. So far I’ve put a tyre on £65, front shock cap bearing £45 and I’ve topped up the oil with some cheap wilkos stuff. I’ve done 15k in it since I’ve had it and that motor will run, probably without any fluid changes for another 100k. Mercedes are very strict in the UK about releasing information about electronics, modules testing etc. so unless you are good with a multimeter stay away from Mercedes.
Parts are comparable in price to my missus fiesta. All modern cars built after 2010 are made of cheese doesn’t matter where they were made or what make.
time2liv3@reddit
Going with a skyline cross over versus an Audi SQ5 for this very reason, i know i can fix and know my way around a Nissan versus an over engineered Audi.
special-fed@reddit
A headlight assembly replacement for a 2017 audi q7 is $3500 so I would say yes.
https://parts.audiusa.com/p/Audi_2017_Q7/Headlight-Assembly/67827744/4M0941773E.html
Frequent_Toe_478@reddit
I own an M3, a 330xi and an X5 V8 twin turbo. The only thing I have ever had is a coil fail on the X5 on a road trip. I am a tech so I just did the coils in the hotel parking lot. 107k on it at that time and up until that time it was just normal maintenance items
Vegetable_Fix_6876@reddit
Had a Mercedes C class amg sport thing….now that was actually a great car for me. Got it second hand(used)…dealer cleaned it up and I forced new tires into the deal. And basically I drove it. And a lot. And really really liked it. Make sure to find maintenance records for any car. It will tell you what a money pit it really is. I walked on one guys car….did he have records? Oh yeah….lots of em. In a very short period of time with his having the car.
revocer@reddit
FWIW, I spent more money maintaining a 10 year old BMW X5 for four years from 160K to 200K miles, than all of the 25 years of my Honda Accord at 280K+ miles.
German cars are great from 0 miles to 33K miles, and decent until 90-100K miles. But once you pass 90-100K miles, it starts getting super expensive to maintain.
Npl1jwh@reddit
2013 A6 3.0T with 125k miles on the clock. Picked it up used 3 years ago with 99k on it.
German cars depreciate heavily so you pick them up at really decent prices.
I just did the thermostat, PCV valve, water pump maintenance, and threw in a walnut blasting to the intakes…$3950 out the door but she should be good to go again for a while. Also did Spark Plugs November 2023 for $400
Even with my maintenance costs figured in I’m driving my Audi for about $350 a month. Granted it’s not new and has miles but it’s still the nicest car I’ve driven for $350 a month.
Set $3k-$5k aside for a German Auto Moment and enjoy the car.
Acrobatic_Hotel_3665@reddit
The answer would be yes compared to Japanese cars, which are engineered to last instead of engineered to keep you coming back to your dealers service department. Bmw especially have a high cost to buy but a higher cost to own
Hairy_Ad4969@reddit
My 2006 Audi A3 hatchback was the most reliable car I’ve ever owned. I sold it two years ago with over 200k miles on the clock and the only problems it ever had were the 2.0 t cam follower recall, and an AC compressor. I drove it hard, and did most of the maintenance on it myself. Still looked and drove like new when I sold it.
The most unreliable car I’ve ever had was my wife’s Audi A4 from 2005. We sold that at five years old with only like 70k miles on it.
So the answer is no, they’re not all money pits, and yes…it depends lol
JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo32@reddit
Everyone I know who’s owned a German car has had nothing but trouble.
My coworker bought a Jetta 8 years ago and the engine failed prematurely. He had to scrap it.
My other friend bought an older model Mercedes and it was also a money pit. He ended up selling it at a loss.
My other friend also had an older Jetta and it was also an unreliable pos.
They’re zippy cars when they’re new but when they age, they don’t age well. Unless you’ve got money to burn I’d avoid.
moron88@reddit
german engineering is among the best. unfortunately, they dont know how to stop engineering. ask them to make a box, and they'll manage to integrate a sphere somehow.
when german cars work, they are among the best. when it's time to tak le a wrench to it, you will probably need an obscure one. that's the real reason they are so expensive to fix. my brother likes vw and audi. he also likes jeeps... his jeeps are more reliable!
itsapotatosalad@reddit
Buy the right ones and maintain them and they can be fine. I’m guessing you’re not European, in which case you’ll likely pay more for maintenance through servicing and consumables like brake and suspension components.
Elegant-Ad-3371@reddit
The German makes are complicated unreliable cars that are marketed and sold as reliable. Ask any forum about any model and you will get the response that they are reliable except for this long list of known issues. Other than the problems, are very reliable. Very cheap to run once you've fixed the expensive problems.
It's why I buy jaaaags. Yep, have issues. But the purchase price is a lot cheaper for an equivalent or better car.
Ok-You-6099@reddit
Some will say it’s because people don’t follow the maintenance schedule.
Repeat after me: 30000km or 2 years is NOT okay for a high strung turbo petrol engine. And that’s the official recommendation in the service manual.
bakermaker32@reddit
I’ve had two Mercedes and two Audis. One of the Mercedes was very reliable, the other a money pit, or would have been, but was under warranty the whole time I owned it. Audis we’re both very reliable, but I only owned them under warranty.
daftwager@reddit
I guess the mindset is that if you are buying a used Audi or BMW you have to just budget for the maintenance, not necessarily something categorically breaking.
The thing is the maintenance is expensive.
I bought a 2015 A6 Avant 3.0 TDI with 55k miles a year ago. Amazing car, it's rapid but also super comfortable. For a 2015 car it is amazingly specced. Here's a years worth of maintenance.
This year I am budgeting for the following - engine mount replacement. £1,000 - rear air shocks replacement. £2,000 - general service £300
I think the main point though is that none of these were unexpected. I researched the vehicle extensively and understood the costs of what was likely to need addressing over time. So I budgeted appropriately. The main issue I see is people buying German cars and not budgeting for general or preventative maintenance. The a6 will last to 150,000 miles easily as long as you keep up with the maintenance schedule. And compared to new cars today I think it's a way better vehicle. No touch screen controls but has everything else you could ever need.
ahornyboto@reddit
Modern German cars are pretty reliable now, as long as you’re keeping up with all maintenance it’ll be fine, the only used German luxury car I’d buy is a certified pre owned which would have had all maintenance done at the dealership
at614inthe614@reddit
No. Not if you keep up with maintenance. 6 used BMW ranging from a 1987 to a 2018 over the past 15 years with a cumulative 500k miles driven, and zero unexpected maintenance. Really, they've been problem free.
ZelWinters1981@reddit
Driven a Holden lately?
Weekly_Werewolf7017@reddit
Early 2000’s S55 Mercedes AMG averages around $500 a month in maintenance and mild mods along the way thru an Indy shop. Purchase price is low so it is worth it imo.
jesssquirrel@reddit
Yes. And there's a high chance it's being sold because the 105k service is almost due or something. Get a Honda
Interesting-Yak6962@reddit
The old saying about why rich people lease German luxury cars.. because to own one is how you go broke.
poopypantsmcg@reddit
Just buy a Honda or Toyota and then never worry about this shit
CelestialBeing138@reddit
When I bought my M5 and again when I bought my C350, all scheduled maintenance was free for the first three years, so it all got done on time. Then I sold them. No idea what happened to the next owners, but they received cars in good shape from me. This was about 12-15 years ago.
kondorb@reddit
Listen to people too much and you quickly learn that absolutely every single car is a money pit.
Because, well, that’s true. Complex mechanisms require maintenance and repairs and often go wrong. That’s just a consequence of complexity. There’s a reason why ships have full time mechanics on board. (Spoiler - there’s always something broken on a ship)
Some cars are better in that regard, some are worse. But there is no car that never breaks and causes no issues. Not a single one.
Cheaper brands are typically cheaper to maintain though. Because cars a simpler, production numbers are higher (scale makes it possible to refine a lot of things) and customers are poorer so businesses have to be less greedy.
EVs are better still by the virtue of a lot less complexity currently. It may not stay this way - complexity tends to rise over time as companies compete on features.
Galopigos@reddit
Your family is correct. The German cars are great when new and under warranty. There is a reason why you see used German cars drop in price as soon as they leave warranty. If you can find a used one with low mileage that has full service and repair records then maybe, IF you can do much of the work yourself as they are very expensive in the shop. Plus they are all overly complicated and the parts are ridiculously priced and you really don't want to use aftermarket parts on them.
Boomshackalacka1337@reddit
Its probably true in the US.
I noticed its almost the highest spec models sold. Lots of V8s and AMG´s, M series cars.
They are money pits.
In Europe the is lot more 2 litre engines or even smaller that common.
And they are not as complicated and pricy to service. At least in europe.
KittyLitterpureblood@reddit
I love my old Mercedes 2003 CL55 AMG , 5 years on and it’s been a good car and I do my Own oil change. Like 250$ most places. No more expensive than regular car.
thombthumb84@reddit
Came here to say No my e39 BMW was reliable, when things did break they were expensive but were easy to replace at home or didn’t cost too much labour.
Then I remembered the 8N Audi TT we had absolutely loved that car but hard to work on at home, always lots of labour and a constant need to replace a few parts.
We had it probably 5 years and replaced the fuse box on the battery at least twice. Engine bay is cramped and hot and the thing kept melting!
Then there was the seat adjuster- the small part that breaks can’t be bought alone- whole seat base at £250 required! No thanks - I’ll sit here!
Ok-Hurry-4761@reddit
I drive a BMW 330i.
The way BMW engineers its cars so tight, ot makes it where mechanics have to take the damned car apart to reach the stuff that needs fixing. A decent amount of the repair cost are those humpty dumpty labor hours the shop has to charge.
I bought mine 4 years used with 35k miles. It had some overdue maintenance that was pricey but I paid it. Now 50k miles. I religiously keep it serviced now and it has not given me any trouble. But yeah simple things like the damned air filter cost more because of the part uniqueness and also having to take the car apart.
Arizonagamer710@reddit
Sounds like you already know the answer. All the information you have is correct. If everyone is telling you the same thing, believe them.
Carsalezguy@reddit
Based on taking them in on trade and then selling them used, yes very much so.
TheMatrixMachine@reddit
I own an e46. It took a bit of work to get it fixed up but I've been able to drive the last 10k miles with just an oil change.
If you buy used and diy, it's not bad. Just make sure you're not buying a neglected example...or if you do that the price reflects that.
Super fun with a manual. It's very fun. I daily drive it in the Bay area and I don't have another vehicle
They're cheap. Even the 330 models can be found for $3-5k. Put in a couple thousand in parts and I think you're mostly set for another 100k miles
An older car has much cheaper parts. Everything is documented and easy to service most things yourself.
JonJackjon@reddit
FWIW I'm on my third Audi A4. First one was in 2002. I've found nothing particularly problematic. The first one had bad injectors there were covered by recall. One of them had a bad connection to the antenna. Normal maintenance is all I've needed, except the 2011 need a new battery and my current Audi just had the trunk release fail. I purchased a replacement part on eBay and installed it myself. Was more costly than my wife's CR-V but still.
Oil Filter etc is done by a local independent. The cost is typical of any car.
sim-o@reddit
I've had a 2012 BMW 320i fornthe last 5 years and it's nearly at 100k miles and not been too strict With servicing, and before that had diesel 2002 audi A6 for at least 10 years, took that up to 130k miles, again with just servicing. Neither had been particularly expensive to run or service. I don't use genuine bmw/audi parts for service items, just reputable aftermarket brands.
Also had good experience with VWs.
Service regularly and find a good independent garage and you'll be OK.
CetiAlpha4@reddit
Owned a used 2008 Mercedes E350 for 10 years now. Bought it when it was about 6 years old and about 1/3 of MSRP. The key is to do your research. I was about to get a 2006 model but then found it had all kinds of engine issues that were fixed by about 2007 but I got the 2008 just to make the search easier. Check the forums for the car you want to buy. At the time I got a Mercedes because they were considered the more reliable of the 3 German brands which isn't saying that much.
BasicHorror1157@reddit
I'm about to take my 2018 BMW 3 series with only 55k miles to the shop to fix a coolant leak, expecting to pay $500 minimum.
thebluew@reddit
Define money pit. If it is used, I would budget at least $2k per year for something to break. When people say you need to maintain it, they don’t just mean oil changes. Things like a water pump would fail earlier compared to others. Transfer case will take a crap on you. It’s all good if this is acceptable to you. People that continue driving German have a different expectation for reliability. And then there’s people that will own German once and never again.
Upper_Presentation48@reddit
since getting my license in 2007 I've had 2 VWs, an audi and a skoda superb. probably done 300k miles between the 4 of them and spent probably 2k collectively on repairs.
SaltLakeBear@reddit
So, one of the cars my brother owned was an E39 M5. It needed work, and in hindsight the fact that it was half the cost of other M5s should have been a major red flag. It had a drivetrain clunk, interior pieces needed to be replaced, the digital display was dying, the tires were mismatched, struts were worn out, and, most worryingly, the VANOS system kept throwing errors.
The first thing we did, not long after getting it, was attempt to replace the valve cover gaskets; I only say attempt because it turned out to not (quite) be the issue. Easy, how hard can it be? Very, as it turns out. It took us two whole weekends to remove the upper AND lower intake plenum, both air cleaner housings, the coil packs, trim pieces, and I think one of the headlights. Maybe some other pieces too. Oh sure, everything was very precisely packaged, beautifully assembled, and thoroughly engineered, but it also made working on it a huge pain.
However, when it worked, it was a thing of glory...
The sounds coming from the S62 under the hood made it sound like the Autobahn had come to Utah, the steering and suspension, despite the issues, was poised and balanced without sacrificing compliance, and the interior was at once classy, supportive and comfortable. To this day, if I could only choose one car for the rest of my life, a good E39 would be it.
And I think that's the key with German cars in particular; for a Jetta, an A4, a 325i or a C320 or even a base Boxster or Cayman, pretty much any "average" car, the extra expense and complication isn't worth it unless it's a project. But if you can find something special, like an E39 M5 or an Audi RS3 or a Cayman GT4, then it is worth it. The trick is to find the one that's special for you.
pokerstar420@reddit
You mention spark plugs and batteries as if you could wrench them yourself.
Not on a BMW at least. The battery is proprietary and has to be registered and programmed at the dealer at a cost of at least $500. Spark plugs run between $300-800.
I’ve heard horror stories of spark plugs changes in Audis that would make your head spin. It’s practically an engine out procedure.
lol_camis@reddit
As a general statement, German cars are less reliable and cost more to fix than domestics and Japs. Like you said, it depends. I will admit VW is half decent in terms of cost of ownership. But still not as good as Honda or Toyota
Fit_Acanthisitta_475@reddit
Be prepared the bwm will cost a lot more than your ford on maintenance and fixing issues.
AnySeaworthiness9381@reddit
One thing I'll say is germans are more prone to make experimental engines, transmissions, and drive trains. They overall deviate further from toyota and honda way of refining their formulas. These can have lots more of failure points.
morris0000007@reddit
Very simply, YES.
Who in their right minds designs an engine with a plastic water pump or plastic guides for the timing chain???
R_A_H@reddit
Ruins my little dream of having a Porsche.
Will just get a Miata someday lol
Few_Profit826@reddit
Always a bunch of "great advice " coming from people who never really turned a wrench lol
e90t@reddit
Yes. But it’s not miserable if you are diyer or find a reputable indy shop.
I’ve owned 4 BMWs (3 as the 2nd owner) and grew up where my dad owned 6 MB’s (all as the 2nd owner). If they’re not taken care of, they become a money pit. Parts are typically more than what you’d pay for a Japanese/American car, and random electronics could break. But, my dad did most of his maintenance work on 5 of the ones he owned (4 80s 1 90s models) and while he had random issues with them (one was stolen, three he gifted to friends/relatives, one he received as a gift that had an a/c issue so he donated to charity) they were all reliable with him doing the maintenance himself. The one he never worked on (a 2010 E350) had a maintenance package included when it was purchased and he would still be driving it if it wasn’t totaled by insurance in an accident. That model was super reliable as well with well maintained examples going for over 300k miles.
DoubleResponsible276@reddit
The real car guys can explain with better details, but they’re also the ones that check on their car all the time.
As a teen, I had a beat up 95 325i and it was the best car I had. Like the previous owners treated it poorly, which is how I ended up with it, but compared to all the piece of shit cars I had, it was definitely the best one. It got replaced with a 07 Jetta. Previous owners was a mechanic that took perfect care of it. 21 year old me was a bit careless driver so I would go full speed on potholes but overall, that car was great. Yeah, when it needed maintenance it was a bit pricier but it hardly needed maintenance.
As long as the car is taken cared for, it’ll last you
Tractorguy69@reddit
Mine is 270,000km BMW with one of the ‘notorious’ engines and it is still going strong. Money pit - maybe, but money well spent. You’re 100% right about intolerant of any sort of neglectful ownership. I do my own work and that keeps the overall cost down and gives me further smiles per gallon in satisfaction. Absolutely unwilling to go back to North American junk and out of the big three I only begrudgingly respect one manufacturer and pathologically hate one of the remaining two. As for JM, sure the reliability is there, but bleh they are so bland in every department other than looks where it’s bland to ugly af. Honestly from German the only way I can see changing would be to Italian for a supercar and that’s just a pipe dream, and would be a bit of nightmare of temperamental but wildly fun cars.
swanspank@reddit
Have an Audi A8L since new in 2008. Parking brake messed up under warranty, they towed and fixed no charge. AC system quit functioning on a trip, out of state Audi dealership scanned and reset and worked ever since, no charge. A spring popped out of the cup holder and the dealership replaced it, no charge. Other that that it regular maintenance and no issues.
The air bags are leaking on the right side now and will need to be replaced. About $5k from the dealership but I’m getting rebuilt ones and replacing them myself for about $1,000.
Overall, it’s been a very dependable vehicle but I am guessing we got lucky.
eighthgen@reddit
The short answer is...yes
Liverpool1900@reddit
They are over complicated therefore expensive. Basic things to fix takes more time and effort. Plastics snap and you gotta replace those. Its all the little things that add up. A Toyota can be very diy Friendly
ViBin_wrx@reddit
Even if you do all your own work they still get expensive. I've owned an S4, 2 M3s and a VW Eurovan.
CurrentComplex2020@reddit
I've owned 2 VW jettas, a 2006 model, and a 2013 model. I bought both used when they were 5 years old and both just under 80k miles.
The 06 had zero issues until the A/C went out during the last couple of years I had it. The cost to fix was way more than I could afford to spend.
The 2013 was a manual GLI model. I learned to drive on a manual and had at times wished my 06 model was a manual. The only issue I had with it was the timing belt went out on me, but luckily, I was under warranty from being a certified used car.
I took both to the dealership for service and oil changes. I always felt treated well, and I had a good rapport with the person who was my service contact. The mechanic would do a video inspection of the car and show things of concern or problems that needed to be addressed. I really appreciated this.
I only recently got rid of the 2013, for a few reasons, I was ready for a new vehicle, specifically a truck. I was tired of driving a manual. I moved and no longer have a VW dealership that I can take for service in my area. Lastly, I started to get a nagging feeling that I was gonna have some major repair pop-up that not having a trusted dealership would make it tough and costly to find someone to service it.
Brainfewd@reddit
I’ve owned multiple 200k mile BMW’s. Granted, I’m a former tech and I do all my own work. Oddly enough they’ve been quite reliable for the most part during my ownership’s. My current 328xi wagon has 210k on it.
But, I was just doing coolant lines on a 2016 750i that needs about 10-12k (no lie at all) worth of other work done to it. Half of the rubber gaskets leak, there’s more coolant leaks to be found, the suspension is tired, etc. and it’s only got about 140k on it. Was driven insanely hard and put away wet.
If you buy a brand new one, for the most part it’ll be reliable, but expensive when it comes time to fix. When it gets to that 40-70k territory, some larger things might start jumping out. 70+ is when you get into what I would argue is full unknown territory. Totally depends on how the owner takes care of it. Whoever had my 328xi before took it to a dealer until about 150k miles. Stacks of records on what had been done. I bought it at 184k.
Any euro car you’re looking at, put the model into FCPeuro.com and once it loads, the most common replacement parts will pop up on the screen. Just look at how expensive rotors and pads are alone for brake jobs on some of these cars. Some of them are known for needing timing jobs done, 328’s need about $1100 in parts, special tools, and it’s almost two days of labor to finish the job. That’s a 4k bill at most shops easy.
1hassanbensober@reddit
Short answer, yes. Long answer fucking yes.. this comes from wrenching on sons 325 and m2. Now we have a Mercedes in the driveway. Oh heart be still....
Interesting_Visit483@reddit
No, they’re no more less reliable than most brands. Yes, they are generally expensive to maintain, but i’ve never really heard they are especially unreliable, atleast here in Sweden, that reputation is stronger with french and us made cars.
Ps - Consumer reports ranks Mercedes and Bmw in the top 10 https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/used-car-brand-reliability-a2811658468/
majorgerth@reddit
I used to own a MKV GTI and I had to buy a socket that’s typically used for axles (36mm I think) to change the oil filter myself. That’s clearly anecdotal, but the Germans do things differently than the Americans or Japanese. You’ll need specialized tools to do maintenance, and parts cost more because they’re typically imported from Germany. German car mechanics are harder to find and more expensive than American or Japanese car mechanics. I don’t think German cars are necessarily less reliable, but everything will likely cost more.
rrhunt28@reddit
I've never owned one but a mechanic near me that I follow online says stay away. He basically says they are great cars for 100k miles, then they start costing you a lot of money. Part of it is that typically the parts are more expensive.This mechanic works on a wide range of stuff including high end exotic cars. Home seems to be very knowledgeable and reasonably priced. Also the maintenance is high. I know a guy who only drives Mercedes because that was what he grew up with in Europe. He had to get a new battery and it was over 200 bucks for just a battery. Then his oil change service is hundreds of dollars. Who can afford that kind of money for regular maintenance?
ProfessionalWaltz784@reddit
costly, but the dealership service departments often have a euro breakfast buffet, so there's that
dcgregoryaphone@reddit
German luxury cars are built with the expectation that you will do all of the items to maintain the car that they tell you to when they tell you to. They're complex, and the parts have predictable failures, and if you don't replace something that should've been replaced when it should've been replaced, the engineers don't care that's on you. People love Toyotas because they're designed for people who don't read the manual.
vtstang66@reddit
I bought a cheap BMW 330 for my wife. Ended up having to replace a ton of designed-to-fail, difficult-to-access parts. The parts weren't particularly expensive, and now the car is nice and pretty reliable, but paying someone to do labor on a BMW is 2-4x the cost of the same repair on a normal car. There's the markup because it's a PITA to work on + the extortion markup because shops assume you have extra money. Also they want to use OEM parts which are also several times the cost of the same parts from O'Reilly or rockauto.
Conscious-Food1622@reddit
If you want a good experience, you have to treat them well or buy one that has been treaten well. You can’t skimp out on maintainence like you can with a Toyota or Lexus.
CrazyHardFit@reddit
Ja.
JDasper23@reddit
Yes, yes they are.
Ralph_O_nator@reddit
Long short of it; family business had diesel Toyota Avensis; switched to VW Passat 2.0 TDI’s had said TDI’s for 3 years. Went back to Corolla hybrid Wagon. Never looked back. Longer story: These were take home sales people cars and were always serviced at Toyota/VW. They decided to get rid of the Toyotas at 200K KM’s. All ran but had some wear. The Passats that replaced them were in the shop a lot more and had had to have major parts removed and replaced like DSG’s, and DPF’s. The Corollas have been equally reliable as the Avensis and sip fuel.
teb1987@reddit
I can only speak from a semi historical anecdotal perspective. I had a 94 BMW 325i I got at auction for $500 around 2010ish.. it definitely had a hard life, it was a convertible and the top didn't work so it was cheap.. engine was good though.
Everything I needed to diagnose and fix the issues I had with that car I was able to find on a BMW forums (I think bimmerworld or something like that).. it was a huge resource and repository of information for the car. There was also pelicanparts.com which was basically Rock Auto for German cars and just like Rock Auto I was able to get all the parts I needed as OEM and a fraction of dealer or brick and mortar part stores.
That being said I was young and I did all the work myself. So I didn't pay labor. But with the guidance of that forums and YouTube videos posted there, it was the easiest and most straightforward car I've owned and worked on.. I'd 100% own another one.
I don't know how that has translated to today and almost 30 yrs later in cars and world changes but.. even back then there was the idea that used German was expensive.. I have inherited two Dodges by marriage and they were BOTH way more of a pain in my ass than that beater of a BMW..
redingtonb@reddit
The used car places in NE Ohio are always full of BMWs and Jeeps. Questions?
Educational_Date224@reddit
"There's nothing so expensive as a cheap German car."
HackVT@reddit
I have owned 2 different M cars. When you need an M specific part you wait for it to be machined. I bought a GTI as a winter fun car and it was really fun. Not fast enough to get in trouble and really great in the twists. The M5 was my way of living out my wants for the movie Ronin except there was tons of traffic where I lived. Barely got to enjoy it.
Buy a VW manual. Have fun. Get winter and summer tires.
NeelSahay0@reddit
The short answer is yes. The correct answer is it depends.
bluenosesutherland@reddit
I have a 2015 VW Golf 1.8tsi and the only issue I ran into is a water pump. It ended up being an $1800 CAD repair, but in a car nearly 10 years old, that has been the one pseudo expensive one.
daHavi@reddit
Sure, they're reliable..... if you pour $1000's of ongoing maintenance into them over the years. Any car would be reliable if you spent those same $1000's on maintenance on them too. At that point all they can claim is that the core components of their engines are capable of lasting multiple hundreds of thousands of miles... IF meticulously maintained. All the other components outside of the engine block have a higher than average failure rate, including engine components, AND higher parts replacement cost.
I know the interiors are boring in Toyota's. That's the price you pay for ultra reliability with a high tolerance for imperfect maintenance. Honda's are more interesting in my opinion.
510519@reddit
Buy something well maintained with complete service records that's already dropped in value, then sell it in a few years before it gets to be problematic.
I've owned like 5 older bmws. I also do my own work so maintenance isn't really expensive.
NonEnergeticCrouton@reddit
I’ve only owned European cars. Only my MK4 Golf was a money pit.
hookydoo@reddit
Yup. Many audis require an engine out for even somewhat basic maintenance. Parts are expensive and not any more reliable than domestics imo.
Theyre great when they work and you have a warranty lol
supremehype100@reddit
It all depends on the specific model. A new 340i is just as reliable as any new Japanese car, a e60 540i not so much. There are tons of fine American cars too, it all comes down to specific models, even Toyota has made some awful cars.
Sazabi_X@reddit
It's the parts.
ShunnedContention@reddit
Depends on which ones and models. Had a mk4 GLI and it was extremely reliable.
Cousin worked for BMW as a tech/mechanic and vowed to never own one
EquinoXcs@reddit
In theory yes like others have stated, more expensive parts and labor and also the tolerances are much stricter so they don’t do well with neglect of maintenance usually. But in reality, it honestly depends on the model, which is why you have to do your research, and also how many miles you are planning to put on it.
BotherPuzzleheaded50@reddit
If you aren't comfortable doing shit like dropping an entire subframe to change an oil pan gasket(just did this on an m235i), and don't want to have unexpected $5k+ repair bills for installing said $60 gasket, then you don't want anything to do with out of warranty german cars. Learn to wrench or get richer are your options.
NedKellysRevenge@reddit
Yes
Hersbird@reddit
The answer isn't "it depends", the answer is yes.
TacitRonin20@reddit
I've been looking for a car made in the early-mid 2000s and started looking at German cars. Here's what I've found:
BMW: Mediocre performance and difficult to repair will need repairs.
Audi: mediocre performance and difficult to repair. The 1.8 turbo is a decent little motor though.
Mercedes: their M113 V8 engine is bulletproof and easy to repair. The V6s from that period are eh, okay. The breaking system for several years kills itself after a certain amount of time and the air suspension is going to fail. So 90% of mercs from that period are going to be more dangerous and more expensive to repair than their American counterparts.
Tldr: it depends. Look into cars you like and make sure they're maintainable and long-lasting. Some are. Some aren't.
SuperChimpMan@reddit
Yeah pretty much. Parts and labor both are just way more expensive. I say find an independent German car mechanic in your area that has good reputation and call them up and see if they sell used cars. Maybe you can snag a nice one Audi wagon that already had a head gasket blown or something and has been fixed up for a good deal.
I’ve gotten great Volvos and Subarus using that method. I would never recommend getting a used European car from a private seller or probably any dealer unless it was a very expensive certified dealer car or something.
As far as new models I don’t think much of the new Audis or bmws but Volvos And Mercedes are nice but the parts and service is pretty damn outrageous.
My dad drives vws which can be nice but the dealership service centers are literally organized criminals.
kvashaihor@reddit
That depends on a car. BMW are not reliable generally speaking, I don’t know anything about Audi, I would choose for myself only VW or Porsche. Now I am driving a second used Porsche and it works great, same as the first one.
Kgtv123@reddit
Modern BMWs are one of the most reliable brands on the road
blazingStarfire@reddit
Yes