9mm seems to work just fine for bear defense.
Posted by Grandemestizo@reddit | Firearms | View on Reddit | 85 comments
https://www.ammoland.com/2024/05/handguns-in-defense-against-bears-by-caliber-9mm-11-incidents/
Conventional wisdom has long held that 9mm is inadequate for protection against large animals but evidence seems to indicate that it is effective. Makes one doubt the usefulness of larger handgun cartridges in a defensive role.
Sure_Pear_9258@reddit
Anecdotal evidence is not determinate. You can point to individual cases where yes a 9mm was used to kill bears. But the vast majority of even the presented cases were either black bears or the bear was not immediately dropped but rather mauled the victim and was later found dead.
Two most important factors when dealing with brown/grizzly bears is shot placement and penetrating power. Getting through their hide, fat and bones is alot different than shooting a person. You want a round that can go deep enough to hit vital organs or break through their skull. Kentucky ballistics has a good video where he tested rounds on a ballistic dummy grizzly bear skull and the 9mm pretty much skipped right off because shot placement wasnt what it could have been. But when you kick it up to 10mm or 44 magnum you're still able to punch through the skull with less than ideal shot placement.
While I have personally carried 9mm through areas known to contain grizzlys it was because my wife surprised me for my birthday and I didnt know what I was walking into and didnt carry my glock 20. But I did stop in at a store and made sure to load up on buffalo bore +p+ ammo so I had a better chance of good penetration.
Now if were excluding grizzly's or brown bears and were talking black bears like in the USA south than I will fully admit high quality 9mm FMJ's, buffalo bore or liberty civil defense Ultra Light will be more than adequate. But "bears" as a general term is pretty broad. I am not sure I would even trust 10mm against polar bear. I would want 44 mag, 500 mag, 12/10 gauge slugs, 458 socom or 338 Lapua.
Lopsided_Dirt6028@reddit
The Sirius sled patrol issues 30-06 and Glock 20s for polar bear protection in Greenland
Fragrant-Debt-2479@reddit
I think 9mm fmj fn will be ok for bears. But, you have to shoot until the danger treat stop, as many times as necesary. Creo que 9mm fmj flat nose hard case es ok para defenderse de cualquier animal grande. Pero no con un disparo. Recuerden que ante el peligro hay que disparar hasta que el peligro desaparezca. No creo que un oso se sienta bien con 10 o 12 disparos de 9mm continuos.
Averagecrabenjoyer69@reddit
*If using the right load. Buffalo Bore or Underwood is an absolute must. Don't assume off the shelf 9mm will be fine against bear.
chefboolardee@reddit
Buffalo Bore 144gr flatnose +p for the backcountry 👌
JPG_SIG10@reddit
147 Gr. 👍
Grandemestizo@reddit (OP)
Hard cast would definitely be the way to go, though ball ammo penetrates really well too and would probably work in a pinch.
Lopsided_Dirt6028@reddit
Winchester service grade. 115gr flat nose fmj rated at 1320fps. Most people at the range will think you're firing a 357 magnum. It's stout, but controllable. Puts hogs on their asses, and 50rds is about 15 bucks. Only use it in guns with good chamber support!!! It is spicy, and definitely gets people's attention!!!
MastodonAromatic943@reddit
I love the 115gr service grade rounds. That’s what I carry for woods defense. With the flat nose and higher fps I think it’s a better cheap alternative than those others by Buffalo bore or underwood that are like $35+ for a box of 20 rounds. I just ordered 10 50 round boxes of the service grade for like $12.99 a piece. Can’t beat it and I have no doubts it would put a hurting on just about any animal in the lower 48. And since its cheap you can actually shoot a lot of it and get comfortable with it and make sure it functions well in your pistols
jumpsuitman@reddit
You ever tried winchester's USA ready version in the red box with allegedly 1190 muzzle velocity?
EnD79@reddit
Flat nose makes a bigger hole round nose.
Technical_Pain_4855@reddit
It penetrates more in a straight line, even through bone, and also deeper. It makes a slightly bigger hole.
Sexyteste@reddit
When engaging big game, it’s not so much the size of the wound channel, but the penetration that really makes a difference. Thats why hard cast bullets are preferred over say a hollow point. Hollow point will create a nice big wound channel, but a good hard cast bullet will penetrate much further. Big game animals often have a lot of stuff you need to go through to get to the vitals. So even regular ball ammo over regular flat nose would be preferred as it would potentially penetrate further depending on the specifics of the load.
Technical_Pain_4855@reddit
The issue with ball ammo is how it doesn’t (always) penetrate in a straight line. For some reason, flat nose makes it penetrate in a dam near perfectly straight line. Both 10mm and 9mm BB outdoorsman penetrate the same amount in gel, and I watched the video comparing them yesterday, it was about 86” deep in the longest ballistic gel block I have ever seen, in a perfectly straight line.
9mm flatnose hardcast will absolutely destroy a bear. Actually I’m of the opinion a standard JHP would wirk fine too. Their brains aren’t anymore than a few inches in their head, and their bones certainly aren’t harder than wood or steel. But I guess I would stick with the “conventional wisdom”, at least in projectile type. But don’t care about caliber once you’re at or above 9mm luger. It’s pretty powerful stuff. .45 acp chamber pressure is 21,000 psi, and 23,000 for +p. 9mm is 35,000 psi, 38,500 psi for +p, and 42,000 for +p+. Doubling the mass of a projectile doubles the energy. Doubling the velocity quadruples the energy. It’s why .45 acp and 9mm luger generally have the most similar muzzle energy between any other two cartridges.
Neko_Boi_Core@reddit
shot placement also matters
10mm supremacy either way
aggie113@reddit
Got two boxes of buffalo bore so I can use that extended mag to make sure it's down :)
wavydavy101@reddit
Another good one is G9 woodsman. I’d call that good for most of the lower 48.
SniperSRSRecon@reddit
this. i worked at a gun store in a big hunting area, one of the old timers killed a bear with his 9mm but used +p+ to do it.
JPG_SIG10@reddit
My wife will carry only her 9mm Luger pistol, which she loads with 15+1 rounds of Underwood Ammo's 147 Gr FN Hardcast +P ammo, plus spare loaded 15-round magazines. I carry my 10mm Auto pistol, loaded with 19+1 rounds of UA's 200 Gr FN Hardcast, backed up with UA's 140 Gr Xtreme Penetrator ammo, and 200 Gr XTP JHP ammo in my spare 16-round magazines. Plus, we both carry good sturdy wilderness survival knives, and bear spray. We always endeavor to avoid grizzly country.
_Cybernaut_@reddit
If I had to deal with an angry bear, I’d rather have too much gun, than too little.
Grandemestizo@reddit (OP)
I’d rather have a rifle or a shotgun, of course. If we’re talking about handguns though, 9mm is making a good case for itself. All else equal a 9mm will be easier to shoot quickly and accurately than a larger caliber handgun so it might just be the better choice for a lot of people.
Rob_Zander@reddit
The problem with bears is that they have thick fur, thick hide, big muscles and big bones between you and their vital organs. If you're attacked by a bear it's probably gonna be on all fours facing towards you. So you either need a disabling head shot or you need to shoot through its chest to reach its vitals.
So really the most important thing isn't so much caliber as bullet selection. A 9mm Speer Gold Dot or Hornady FTX could put down a person just fine but it won't necessarily reach a bear's organs. A NATO pressure FMJ can give you the penetration you need but ball rounds can deflect. A nice hard cast lead bullet or a semi wadcutter will give you the penetration you need. And if you can empty a magazine of 9mm faster and more accurately into a bear than you can 10mm all the better.
Buffalo Bore has a cool story of a guide who killed an attacking grizzly with a 9mm S&W.
rockshocker@reddit
That dude straight up left his unarmed clients to die and ran lol
Lopsided_Dirt6028@reddit
The hell he did you lying sack of crap!!! Phil Shoemaker killed that grizzly boar with his Smith and Wesson 9mm pocket pistol, and that boar didn't even touch his clients before it was dead on the ground!!! He was using buffalo bore 147gr+p hard cast 9mm, and it happened in 2006.
Lopsided_Dirt6028@reddit
Underwood 124gr+p fmj flat nose 9mm. It actually penetrates deeper in the gel than the 147gr hard cast from underwood does. For woods defense I carry Winchester service grade 9mm 115gr flat nose fmj rated at 1320fps. It was previously labeled mhs handgun ammo(mhs being modular handgun system!!!) it was made by Winchester to go with whatever handgun won the trials that replaced the Berettas. Which we all know is the SIG m17 and m18. I shot the 115gr flat nose out of my Girsan regard mc9 and it was very accurate and controllable but very stout!!!
Benign_Banjo@reddit
In my ideal world everyone would have an AR in .458 Socom when running across a bear.
Crashing_Machines@reddit
Thats it? Ideal to me is a hilux mounted m2.
shifterak@reddit
Whenever I go hiking in the backcountry, I do it in an M1 Abrams tank fully loaded with depleted uranium sabot rounds. Any bear that graces my presence instantly becomes wet soil.
Strong_Dentist_7561@reddit
Nah. There’s a reason conventional wisdom is conventional wisdom
EnD79@reddit
Conventional wisdom is often very wrong.
Strong_Dentist_7561@reddit
Most of it time it, in fact; is not incorrect. In regards to firearms to be sure.
And beware- Fudd Lore and conventional wisdom are two different things
EnD79@reddit
The conventional wisdom on firearms, tends to be mostly fuddlore. Gunwriters love spreading stuff that is proven to be untrue. Many people still think that ft lbs of energy is a wounding mechanism.
MrJohnMosesBrowning@reddit
The problem is that no handgun would be “too much” gun for a bear. I’ve seen hunting videos even if small black bears take rifle rounds from 308 WIN or larger to the vital zone in the chest and still be able to run for 20 to 30 seconds before dropping. Doesn’t matter what handgun you’re using; if you don’t hit it in the central nervous system it’s got 30+ seconds to do whatever it wants to you if it doesn’t get scared and run away from the shots.
XxcOoPeR93xX@reddit
I'm not sure anybody doubted that a 9mm would work in self defense. Shit im sure a 22 is better than nothing. But I didn't see any of those incidents where the bear was killed on the scene. Every bear death was when they were found later.
This is a very small subset of successful uses. Can we get the subset of failed uses as well? How many times did people use a 9mm and still die? How many times did people use 10mm and die? How many bears were killed in defense with each cal? There's a lot more valid data out there than "look 9mm work on bear!!"
Fun_Scene_3898@reddit
The folks at Ammoland did a search and found 170 cases with a 98 % were successful. This is from multiple calibers. great read and learning post
Grandemestizo@reddit (OP)
I think the usefulness of this data is to show that 9mm does have the power to penetrate to the vital organs of a bear, which is all we really hope to get from bear defense pistols. The rest is up to the shooter.
XxcOoPeR93xX@reddit
Was that really in question? A standard 9mm JHP will penetrate 15"+ of 10% ballistic gelatin. I don't think there's a stance to take to say that it wouldn't penetrate vitals of a bear.
I think the majority of the argument is if the round would be debilitating or energetic enough to have to immediate stopping power. I think these examples didn't show anything in that regard. Sometimes they killed the bear sometimes they didn't.
Unicorn187@reddit
Go for it. I'll stick with at least a 10mm.
Fun_Scene_3898@reddit
Bear spray is not more effective. That is a forest service lie. It is great for curious bear , but charging bear can blow right through it. Also wind, rain and fog makes it unuseable. Also it can't be used in a tent . It is ok but needs a gun too.
Unicorn187@reddit
Hence the 10mm.
Grandemestizo@reddit (OP)
I used to carry my .45 when out in bear country, and still might, but at this point I’m considering my 9mm.
ArceusTwoFour_Zero@reddit
If you have both a 9mm Luger and .45 acp Handgun, take the .45 acp.
real_witty_username@reddit
I wouldn't call that evidence of effectiveness and it certainly doesn't provide any information that would lead to 'doubting the usefulness of larger handgun cartridges'. It's simply a few accounts of 9mm being used against a bear 'successfully'. I put it in quotes because in most of the incidents the bear simply ran off. In hindsight, sure,, that's a successful defensive encounter but it required the bear to run off; an action that you neither control nor have any way to predict. It most certainly isn't a legitimate strategy to bet your life upon.
Grandemestizo@reddit (OP)
I think it’s worth pointing out that the bears that didn’t run away were killed.
real_witty_username@reddit
As someone else already pointed out a bear was killed with a single shot .22. That doesn't mean much of anything beyond proving that if all the possible variables happen to align in your favor you can achieve something that statistically should be very difficult to achieve.
Fun_Scene_3898@reddit
that shot was close and the old lady knew bear anatomy from cleaning them. She knew exactly where to put the bullet in it's weakest spot. It had to be a perfect hit. At the time it was the largest grizzly on record
gravity_loss@reddit
???
As opposed to what, staying and killing the person? I don't understand what point you're trying to make.
The article is about bear attacks that were successfully repelled using a 9mm handgun; 11 accounts over 22 years. You would have to compare successful vs unsuccessful shootings in order to reach any kind of conclusion, which would be very challenging because people who carry for defense against bears generally carry guns that are more powerful than 9mm.
6 of the 11 attacks were black bears and 3 of the 6 were in southern states where bears are typically smaller compared to those in the north. I didn't read any mention of their weight in the article but I could see how 9mm would be effective against a bear that's closer to the size of a human compared to a larger black or brown bear you would expect to find in the north.
thatswhyicarryagun@reddit
I carry a G17 with 147gr flat nose FMJ when I'm in Bear Country.
There are 2 primary reasons I settled on.
When I am in bear country I am also in wolf country. I would rather not run out of ammo or reloads if I need to defend against multiple wolves.
When it comes to bears you need penetration. A 147gr FN FMJ provides plenty of penetration while remaining accurate with plenty of rapid follow up shots. The FN pushes through hard objects as opposed to glancing off. So it won't be redirected from a rib or paw as easily.
That's my theory. I hope I never need to put it to the test.
Technical_Pain_4855@reddit
Yes I just watched a video yesterday and the 9mm and 10mm buffalo bore flatnose hardcast “outdoorsman” penetrated the exact amount in a comically huge gel block. They both went about 86” in a perfectly straight line.
Shot placement is more important than the relatively minor ballistic increase of 10mm. Some people will cry about how you need 10mm but then tell you it’s because they’ve seen 12+ shots of .375 H&H magnum do nothing to a grizzly, with good shot placement too! (Yeah right. Either a complete fkn lie or the shot placement was FAR from good.)
If their justification to use 10mm is that even .375 H&H doesn’t work, that really doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, considering 9mm and 10mm may as well be the same round compared to .375 H&H.
ilikerelish@reddit
The 9mm would be good for black and brown bear because typically a loud noise is enough to send them packing. Couple that with the searing pain of a bullet hitting their flesh, it is doubly as effective. I don't see it as effective when it comes to a sick, very hungry, or grizzly bear. The former may not care about the pain because they are crazed with hunger or whatever is wrong with them, the latter is just a much bigger creature with much greater constitution. It pays in those cases to not have a popgun, but if anything overkill. If something is looking to maul me, I want it to be dead or maimed first shot, I don't want for it to get a swipe at me before it stops breathing, cause even if you do manage to down the thing, if it gets a swipe in, it may posthumously take you to hell with it.
Quadrenaro@reddit
5.7 works too apparently.
Agammamon@reddit
.22LR will put a bear down - it still doesn't 'work just fine' for bear defense, and neither does 9mm.
9mm is for 2-legged predators.
CheeseMints@reddit
A great channel that covers bear attacks and shootings with handguns on youtube is called "Chukes Outdoor Adventures", he's up in Alaska and talks about what people use up there and in Canada.
He also does a little Squatching
Lrfnpgenjrgq@reddit
I’ll watch anything with a little Squatching
Grandemestizo@reddit (OP)
Thanks, I’ll check it out.
Pathfinder6a@reddit
A .22LR pistol is a good bear defense round if you’re with someone (besides the bear). All you have to do is shoot your buddy in the leg and then run. Your buddy won’t be able to run as fast and the bear will get him, not you.
Epyphyte@reddit
Cool find. In my experience When you come close up on them, Bears move laterally!
I honestly think you’d be better off mag dumping 17 9 mm versus a few of something powerful that most people cant shoot accurately or quickly.
Having said that, Seeking bear yesterday with a blackpowder gun, I carried .357sig As backup. Maybe ill take 9 next time. Even with ear pro, My ears will still thank me!
Aggressive_Local8921@reddit
A lot of those articles say the bear ran away and then died often after already mauling the victim
Deeschuck@reddit
In zero of the listed cases did the bear get shot and THEN maul the victim. If the bear bites you before you shoot it, the caliber of the pistol you haven't fired yet doesn't really come into play, does it?
Aggressive_Local8921@reddit
I can shoot, not read
Deeschuck@reddit
A man's gotta know his limitations :)
Grandemestizo@reddit (OP)
Not a single one of these stories includes a bear mauling someone after being shot, though a couple include people successfully fighting off a bear that had already started mauling them.
11correcaminos@reddit
I could point you to 10 instances where people survived car crashes and weren't wearing seat belts. That doesn't mean you shouldn't wear a seat belt.
Exceptions to the norm DO NOT equal common occurances
Grandemestizo@reddit (OP)
If these are exceptions, surely it would be easy for you to find examples of the norm, right? Do you have any examples of 9mm proving inadequate for bear defense?
11correcaminos@reddit
No, but if you want to go around in bear country and trust your life to a 9mm instead of carrying a more effective tool, such as 10mm, feel free to do so
2Drogdar2Furious@reddit
I've seen my uncle drop a deer with a .22lr.... but I wouldn't recommend it.
Milksmither@reddit
Shot placement matters.
One of the biggest grizzly bears every recorded was killed by Bella Twin with a .22 short—her single shot rabbit hunting gun.
Mountain_Man_88@reddit
An incredible shot essentially right up its nose! And once it was down she proceeded to continue dumping everything she had in its skull, thinking that it might've just been stunned.
misterzigger@reddit
It was directly between the eye and the ear where the skull bone is the thinnest if i recall correctly.
Mountain_Man_88@reddit
I thought her first shot was up the nose as the bear was coming towards her and she dumped like 15 more into the area you described to be sure.
PrometheusSmith@reddit
Her story describes her ambushing the bear from just off the trail. The bear was apparently stalking her but didn't see her leave the trail. Every shot was through the same golf ball size area.
GimpboyAlmighty@reddit
Worth noting that you don't need to kill a bear to survive a bear attack. If you can inflict enough ouch to make it fuck off, it's a successful shooting. It ain't hunting, you aren't trying to drop it quickly and ethically, you're just trying to get home.
Khaden_Allast@reddit
.22 long
Grandemestizo@reddit (OP)
That lady had some serious guts.
Mountain_Man_88@reddit
"Success" is achieved by a combination of loud noise, bright flash, and the bear feeling pain, encouraging it to fuck off. 9mm won't reliably stop a charging Kodiak grizzly, might stop a black bear, and will generally get any type of bear to fuck off unless it really means business. .22 will have a similar effect. As will .25, .32, etc. but if you're gonna carry a gun for bear defense, ideally you have a gun that will reliably stop a bear that's coming for you.
That said, shot placement and hitting your target also matter a ton, a 9mm that you can shoot well under stress loaded with hardcast ammo is gonna be better than a .44 mag that you're terrified of shooting. The 22 lr handgun that you have on you is better than the .500 bushwhacker cannon that you left tin the cabin.
Grandemestizo@reddit (OP)
I dunno man, I think it will stop a brown bear if you put a bullet through its head or shoulder which is the same you’d get from any cartridge that penetrates adequately. No cartridge is going to stop a bear through sheer power, even from a rifle.
Mountain_Man_88@reddit
The problems with bears are the thickness of their skull and how much fat/muscle is between you and their vital organs.
The skull thickness combined with the angle of the face are enough to deflect smaller caliber cartridges. It can still be enough force to stun a bear, or it could be ineffective, especially depending on where you hit. Eyes or up the nose are soft and won't deflect but on the snout or at the door of the head can very much deflect.
The amount of fat and muscle means that you need a very deep penetrating projectile to actually hit anything that matters. Can be over a foot of tissue. FBI recommends 12-18 inches of penetration in ballistics gel to stop a human, with maybe a couple inches of tissue on top of vital organs. For a bear you need like 24-36" of ballistic gel penetration.
Grandemestizo@reddit (OP)
9mm solids consistently penetrate beyond that in gel. The guys at Vortex even put a simulated brown bear skull in a huge gel bear head and 9mm went straight through it. You can see their tests starting at 8:00
https://youtu.be/We_aHSA2Pbc?si=7j9eZBS3E-wcxV1m
RexMundi000@reddit
The most common caliber for poached bears in Alaska is 556 or 762/39. Basically anything works if you drive by on a ATV and mag dump into its chest. But in a true self defense scenario you really want the best tool available. 45-70/12GA>Other Rifle Cartridges>Big Boy Pistols> Other Pistols.
Grandemestizo@reddit (OP)
7.62x39 seems like a good balance for a bear defense weapon. Larger and more powerful than 5.56 and quicker shooting than a .308.
RexMundi000@reddit
Bear guns are really centered around scenarios where you only get a shot or two. Bears are pretty damn fast.
pavehawkfavehawk@reddit
That’s cool but I’ll stick to my 10Mm with underwood solid cast bullets
906Dude@reddit
Black bear only where I live. No Grizzly. I carry 9mm with Underwood Extreme Penetrator rounds. I'm confident with that carry, and it's the gun I train with and shoot well. Black bear are just flesh and blood like you and I. They aren't some mystical and bullet proof being.
Hot-Win2571@reddit
The entire collection indicates that usually any caliber will make a bear go away.
My EDC is Xtreme Defender, for human threats, but seems reasonable for black bear.
I did note that the guide who killed a Grizzly with a 9MM was using bear rounds, and kept shooting at the same spot of vitals each time the spinning bear turned back around. (bear seemed to be spinning as it tried to find what was stinging it)
blacklassie@reddit
What kind of bear? There’s a big difference between a black bear and a Kodiak bear.