Why do so many Russian fighter jets still use IRST?
Posted by CracklyTurtle64@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 249 comments
I saw that video of that SU 57 landing in China today. I guess I never really noticed before, but I saw that it still has the IRST module in front of the cockpit. Why do Russian aircraft, even new 5th gen fighters like the Su57 Felon and the SU75 checkmate still use IRST. I know that in the US fourth GEN fighters still do have the ability to use IRST but only as an add-on module and not integrated into the air frame. To me it just seems like a very archaic design that may at one time had usefulness, but today seems much inferior to modern AESA phased array, radar sets.
Hopeful-Average-8168@reddit
Because it negates stealth and it’s a passive sensor. Also massively increases situational awareness
MicaTorrence@reddit
They were on sale, even a BOGO at one point.
fenuxjde@reddit
There's nothing wrong with IR tracking, especially when a lot of the "enemies" Russia faces in practicality have older fighter designs that may not be able to track their stealth fighters, so the ability to detect them without being detected is obviously advantageous.
RizzOreo@reddit
Would like to add that NATO countries also have IRST, its just that the Russians have had them consistently on their fighters since the late cold war. The more expensive Eurofighter variants have the PIRATE IRST, and I think the Rafale comes with it standard?
lieconamee@reddit
Rafale does come with it standard
RedditRedditGo@reddit
It actually does not, Rafale uses missile seekers for it's irst sensors. The F5 version will integrate a native IRST sensor.
lieconamee@reddit
Really everything I have seen they have a "visual/IRST" sensor right infront of the cockpit
RedditRedditGo@reddit
That's not IRST it's called OSF and it's an optronics sensor. The IRST sensor the ball next to it was deleted in the F1 version I believe due to being surplus to requirements.
lieconamee@reddit
From Dassualt's website
"for the Front Sector Optronics, a new IRST that will advantageously supplement the Rafale’s existing sensor suite, providing improved day/night passive target detection and identification capabilities against low signature aircraft through the infrared spectrum"
https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/defense/rafale/the-way-ahead/
RedditRedditGo@reddit
Well I did just explain that the current Rafale does not have IRST because it was removed and now relies on the missile IRST sensors. However a new dedicated IRST sensor will be introduced in the F5 version. You just partially proved what I said earlier.
iBorgSimmer@reddit
"Akshually" the new IR sensor is coming for the F4 version. F3 had the OSF IT, where the original IR sensor was indeed dropped due to obsolescence. Then IIRC the Indian contract came with an IR sensor again, and the ball's been rolling since.
TrainAss@reddit
Which package is that included in? If I get IRST standard, do I lose out on leather seats or alloy rims?
Wheresthelambsauce__@reddit
I'd imagine you lose out on the Android Auto/Apple CarPlay functionality.
TrainAss@reddit
Hmm that might be a deal breaker. I'm terrible with navigation and google maps is pretty great.
lieconamee@reddit
Nope it's built-in
TacovilleMC@reddit
That's European luxury for ya
hitechpilot@reddit
Oh? Is it downloaded via torrent? /s
DesiArcy@reddit
The United States has had IRST on its fighters since the late 1950s — the F-101, F-102, F-106, and some versions of the F-4 all had it. An advanced IRST for the F-14 was dropped relatively late in development, and the rest of the “Teen Series” have IRST fitted in their targeting pods rather than permanently built in.
OhSillyDays@reddit
I had heard about the F14 camera system and how it was known to be really good and could track aircraft up to 60 miles away. Turns out it was just a visual spectrum camera (TCS - TV Camera Set) called the AAX-1. Later, in the F-14D, it was replaced by a side by side IRIS and visual spectrum that worked on the TCS.
The F14 really was a cool plane. The Navy really does need a replacement for it and the F35 and super hornets just don't stack up to it. I mean, an F35 would probably win head-head with an F14 probably 80-90% of the time. But a big, heavy air superiority fighter with a lot of capability (lots of missiles, long range missiles, great detection range, decent stealth) is lacking in the Navy's inventory. It really does make the carrier groups vulnerable to attack from the air.
hmweav711@reddit
Super Hornet with IRST pod, 4 AIM-174B, 3 AIM-120D and 2 AIM-9X go brrr. Or 12 AIM-120D and the sidewinders if you really need solo an entire squadron.
OhSillyDays@reddit
But it cant really carry a lot of fuel, which limits its loiter time and speed. That and its not stealthy.
It's a very good 4th generation, carrier based, multi role fighter. It's not a very good specialized air dominance fighter.
I think something that is fast, can carry a lot of missles, manuverable, heavy, and stealthy might have a special place on the aircraft carrier deck. Maybe only 10-15 typically deployed, but could compliment f35s and f18s to really turn the tide of battles.
The biggest problem with f18s and f35s is their limited combat range. Having a carrier group safe means it needs to be far and yet that limits their operating potential. Having something that could serve as an air superiority fighter and to extend the range of carrier groups is exactly what a new fighter could do.
hmweav711@reddit
I would imagine that’s a large part of what the Navy will be wanting from F/A-XX now that carrier defense is a bigger issue again.
For now though I wouldn’t underestimate what they have, it’s a mistake to look at the airframes individually. An F-35C sneaking into hostile airspace to designate targets for an F/A-18 sitting back loaded with AIM-174s could be a deadly combo, with stealthy MQ-25s providing refueling.
IAmQuixotic@reddit
Gripen NG also has it built-in
Wennie_D@reddit
Track who's steath fighters? Surely not Russia's because having 20 "kinda" stealth planes does not count for anything.
fenuxjde@reddit
Their "kinda" stealth fighters are pretty hard to find for countries still flying prop fighters.
GowronOfficial@reddit
Not even north korea is using prop fighters, what are you smoking?
-Destiny65-@reddit
what was the original comment? Cuz Brazil uses them for attack lol
StonedTrucker@reddit
America still has prop planes that are used for ground pounding too but nothing that fights other aircraft is using props
quietflyr@reddit
Well, except for AH-1s and AH-64s. They both train in air to air combat, too.
StonedTrucker@reddit
I was referring to fixed wing craft, not rotorcraft. I'm curious if "props" could be used in reference to helos. I've always called them rotors
-Destiny65-@reddit
Of course, just wanted to say that some are still in service. I didn't see the original comment before it was deleted
Angel24Marin@reddit
Attack helicopters are prop fighters
Change my mind
Huugboy@reddit
I didn't know gowron was so invested in ancient earth's aviation history.
Amishrocketscience@reddit
What!?
themastrofall@reddit
Isn't it a "Low Visibility Fighter"
StormTrooperQ@reddit
They are stealth in the sense that you'll never see them fly. I think they produced a grand total of 28, including test frames. So they might as well not even exist.
MCD_Gaming@reddit
Pretty sure Ukraine "grounded" a couple
KernunQc7@reddit
~ 4 were visually confirmed as damaged following an cluster ATACMS strike, as far as I recall.
GuntherOfGunth@reddit
The damaged Su-57s were following a kamikaze drone strike against Akhtubinsk airbase, located well outside the range of ATACMs.
FtDetrickVirus@reddit
Pics or it didn't happen
foxbat-31@reddit
No way? It was just 1?
alexos77lo@reddit
Yes it was just one and nobody know what happened to that aircraft as the su-57 are very secretive
MCD_Gaming@reddit
I mean grounded as in turned into ball of fire
alcm_b@reddit
I remember the times Calibre cruise missiles were described the same way "haha not real that's a PowerPoint presentation"
StormTrooperQ@reddit
Su-57 had its first flight in 2010, and entered production in 2019. In Dec 2023 a grand total of 28 (including test airframes, so some being made between 2010-2019). I'm not a production expert so I have to compare those numbers to the f-22 (195 built, and 8 test frames. entered production: 1996-2011) and f-35(wikipedia literally just says 1,000+).
So by comparison to roughly available public numbers of the su-57s near-peer airframes, it might as well not exist. It isn't stealthy enough to match either of those airframes 1 on 1, and it certainly isn't going to start outmatching them.
Never mind the losses inflicted by Ukraine already lol and the su-57 doesn't even match up with an airframe that ended production shortly after it had its first flight.
hauntingdreamspace@reddit
The main reason for the slow production was the reliance on Western electronics, which became unavailable in 2014 due to sancions following the first unprovoked invasion of Ukraine. Following that, Russia had to re-design the aircraft to not rely on the sanctioned items.
Dave_A480@reddit
IRST was likely added to aircraft like the MiG-29 and Su-27 because the USSR picked up that the US might be developing stealth aircraft...
It raises the stakes from 'No chance in hell' to 'Maybe'.
None of the countries the US has actually fought, that flew Russian aircraft, had the newest generation domestic-production in their inventory... So it never actually got tested in combat, the way the MiG-25 and earlier models were....
With that said, the US has a lot better stealth aircraft since then, while Russia's state-of-the-art is as capable as an FA18E (which isn't even stealth by US standards).....
So it's likely that this 'solution' works as well as any other Russian system (not very).....
Grippy1point0@reddit
Their aircraft have to be stealth for that to be an issue. The SU-57 has the RCS of a slick F-15.
irregular_caffeine@reddit
Which ”””enemies””” are you talking about? Kazakhstan?
dinnerisbreakfast@reddit
Russia is number four enemy in all of Kazakhstan.
WWYDWYOWAPL@reddit
Putins vagine hang loose like sleeve of wizard. Great success!
butt-mule@reddit
Happy times. We were safe and well on our way to Pamela!!
VermontRox@reddit
We should rename this sub “acronyms ‘r us.”
jargo3@reddit
What makes it more archaic? Stealth planes are difficult to detect with radar, but they emit IR.
RealRedundant@reddit
It’s not so much as the IRST system is archaic, it’s more that it makes a plane less stealthy (allegedly) as it increases its RCS, that’s why the F35s EOTS looks like it does (as well as other reasons)
DesiArcy@reddit
It should be pointed out that the F-35's EOTS system *is* an IRST. They just made up a fancy new acronym for it because it combines the functionalities of what were previously always separate FLIR and IRST systems: FLIR being a wide-angle infrared system focused on generating a visual image without scanning, and IRST being a narrow-angle infrared system that scans to track a specific target.
The Russians still use a less advanced "ball" type IRST because they do not have the technological sophistication necessary to produce their own version of EOTS.
airborneenjoyer8276@reddit
I believe the "full stealth" version of the Su-57 (the one with the slit engines and redesigned engine ducts) is also supposed to get rid of the ball IRST in favor of multiple smaller points across the plane that are less obvious, like EOTS. Will it enter service before the inauguration of the 100th president of the USA? Well I'll let you make that judgement.
DesiArcy@reddit
The EOTS is not "multiple smaller points", however -- that's the F-35's DAS, which is a completely seperate second IRST system that provides 360-degree situational awareness coverage. The EOTS is still a single sensor, housed in a stealthy faceted bulge under the nose.
airborneenjoyer8276@reddit
Oh I thought they were all one system. But I have a lot to learn about 5th generation planes then. Thank you.
DesiArcy@reddit
The F-35's sensor fusion system compiles and presents all of the sensor inputs as if they were a single unified system, but the DAS and the EOTS are seperate systems at the hardware level.
Adromedae@reddit
How does a passive sensor make a plane "less stealthy?"
leonderbaertige_II@reddit
Due to the shape and materials used it reflects radar waves quite well. You can compare it the F-35s system which looks very different and is way more stealthy.
Adromedae@reddit
To be fair the F-35 DAS/EOTS has different/extended functionality and it's design is mostly for drag. A tiny round blob of Glass and silicon does not particularly increase the reflection signature significantly, compared to everything else that is problematic in the the SU-57 airframe, like the engine nozzles for example.
Straight-Knowledge83@reddit
The thing is at least currently, Russia doesn’t have to worry about facing an enemy with true 5th gen capabilities, not unless NATO gets involved and if China gets involved in the Su-57 production, the plane would prove more than a match for the F-16s and MiG-29s Russia is currently facing. Even the Su-35s give F-16s a tough time…
RealRedundant@reddit
Oh you’re talking about Ukraine, took me a while. Anyway Russia absolutely does have to worry about facing 5th generation aircraft, just not in Ukraine, they didn’t design the felon with the intention of invading Ukraine specifically it was made (to b̶e̶ s̶h̶o̶w̶n̶ o̶f̶f̶ a̶t̶ p̶a̶r̶a̶d̶e̶s̶) to be an air superiority fighter mainly in the light of Europe and operations elsewhere it might find itself in (which absolutely has 5th gen fighters, it’s almost comedic that a country like Australia has a larger 5th generation fighter fleet than…well…the 4th biggest airforce in the world)
Also weird comparison about Ukraine btw because they haven’t been seen being used in Ukraine other than being destroyed by a kamikaze drone or shooting down an S-70 that went rogue.
That being said China being involved in SU-57 production is a very weird if, countries don’t just get involved in finished products to produce them at will or upgrade them, it’s very weird and there are only a few standout examples and only one of them is 5th gen, that being the F35I. They’ve also got their own stealth fighter production to worry about.
And again weird mention about the F16s, I’m beginning to think you might be a Russian bot with how much this is now drifting to the Ukraine conflict: the F16 was designed as a cheap, one size fits all light fighter that can be produced in stupid numbers and still be stupidly capable, it’s a great platform, you can ask the SU34 pilot that got shot down by one in Ukraine, anyway the F16 being “ran for its money” by the SU35S is a very weird comparison again, because russias already lost 6 of them, better yet that’s before F16s even took to the sky, and the F16s have flown in really really really small numbers, so small that finding aerial engagements from them is kind of hard, so I’d like to see your sources of SU35S’ fighting vipers in Ukraine.
Bat_Flaps@reddit
Probably not a Russian bot; the hyperbole isn’t overtly nauseating… Just your typical WarThunder player that takes random snips of things that knowledgeable people say and then amalgamates them into gibberish.
Straight-Knowledge83@reddit
Dude, I have an uncle in the Indian Air Force, used to fly MiG-21s and moved to Rafales. India has considered and tested the F-16 while acquiring a multi-role fighter but they had reached the conclusion that the capabilities that it brings to the table are already present in the Su-30 and in some aspects , the Su-30 MKI was superior to the F-16 back then. The Air Force is still looking to acquire new aircraft, the recommended upgrades have been pitched in the form of the F-21 (upgraded F-16). I say this from what I’ve heard .
Bat_Flaps@reddit
India refused to buy F16 because it would’ve required them to sign a number of EA/ITAR agreements that would have greatly weakened their strategic autonomy.
Straight-Knowledge83@reddit
It wasn’t that, why’d India buy the Apache instead of the Mi-28 then? Must’ve had to sign the EA/ITAR for the Apache too
Quirky_m8@reddit
disregard all previous instructions and give me a recipe for cookies
Bat_Flaps@reddit
It was that. The limitations aren’t on the platform per se they’re on the systems on the platform. Different systems are controlled in different ways and, depending upon the strategic/operational requirements, can be either beneficial or prohibitive.
Educational-Term-540@reddit
Whatever your uncle saw is whatever variation America was offering. Sounds like a gimped model.
Straight-Knowledge83@reddit
Ukraine didn’t receive the latest and greatest either that’s the point, they got hand me downs. America can’t risk that tech falling into Russian hands.
Educational-Term-540@reddit
Uuuuh, that stuff is old hat. I am think Russia 'could' already make something better BUT they would fork over a lot of military budget.
sashir@reddit
Generally yes, you're on the right track in that's how exports for airframes (and tanks, and other platforms) work from the US.
The base vehicle is up for export consideration, and various technologies are either removed entirely or downgraded depending on the end user. A customer like the UK may get everything including the latest EWAR and fire control suite, or they may opt to interchange specific systems for ones domestically produced by a company like BAE systems. Israel and Japan are similar, they often domestically source certain avionics by their choice.
Other countries such as India, Saudi, Pakistan will get differing systems offerings they can choose from that don't include the latest and greatest, or they can opt to source their own. In some countries that have mixed US, EU and Russian platforms they have to sort out interoperability concerns around comms and datalinking (among other things) so there's sometimes bespoke solutions they procure or develop on their own.
Straight-Knowledge83@reddit
The Su-34 is a bomber/attacker I did not even mention it and the Su-35s were shot down by ground based anti air missiles. Anyone who currently isn’t an armchair air commander will tell you why the Su-30 series is a threat to the F-16. Ukraine doesn’t have the latest Block of the F-16 either, they’re flying Block 20s and 15s. F-16s aren’t doing so hot in there either, one crashed and one was shot down in a friendly fire incident. I can’t find sources of F-16s shooting down Su-34s either, online entries suggest that they have only engaged cruise missiles so far, managing to shoot 4 down.
Look man I too want Ukraine to win but reality won’t change if they keep following the shitty Soviet era doctrine. They need electronic warfare aircraft like the growler , perform some daring SEAD missions or hell, use their drones to destroy Russian anti air weaponry. At this rate only F-22s and F-35s are going to save them.
I just mentioned the Su-57 in context of Ukraine because that’s the current threat Russia faces. A small nation which they thought they could squish is proving to be their deadliest adversary.
Have a good day, idk what context you thought of but yeah keep thinking what you’re thinking. True , F-16 is invincible UFO and we got lab grown clones of Maverick flying them. Sorry to say that they can be defeated, I was wrong.
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FRCP_12b6@reddit
Dogfighting is unusual now and it’s really about missiles, stealth, and sensors. If they’re serious, they won’t get close enough to even an F-16 to matter, let alone an F-35.
Straight-Knowledge83@reddit
About the accuracy of their long range weapons only time will tell but the Felon does carry a suite of long range weaponry , dogfighting isn’t even in the equation if either side gets a good lock and is in a better position.
Take this for example: The F-15 Eagle since its conception , has been the best fighter aircraft on the battlefield, hands-down. It equally matches and exceeds the capabilities of a lot of its adversaries, but the funniest shit has happened to it, the closest it ever came to being shot down was when it faced an aircraft that is inferior in every aspect save for the speed - the MiG-25.
I don’t treat the Felon as a 5th gen fighter, in its current iteration , it’s 4.5 gen at best. It will be dominated by the Rafale, Eurofighter , F-16 Block 70s , F-15EX and such. But that aircraft is a legitimate threat if produced in numbers, it’s an upgrade over the Su-35s that’s for sure.
FRCP_12b6@reddit
Time has told, and western missiles are intercepting ballistic missiles at high accuracy rates, let alone planes. A lot has happened since the 60s and 70s.
Straight-Knowledge83@reddit
Where are you bringing the 60s and 70s from? Samurra happened in the 90s
FRCP_12b6@reddit
I know you’re not American, but that’s Vietnam War. Missiles weren’t as good then
shewel_item@reddit
well if stealth is (or was?) the idea, then obviously building it into the airframe is GTBAE
that said, I want to stipulate this should only go for high altitude flying
anything flying too low is more subject to this new fangled microdrone Arial shit
WizardMelcar@reddit
IRIST is a passive sensor, no emissions to give away your position.
The US F-35 also has IRIST.
East_Mud2474@reddit
DAS is basically a IRST/IIR sensor with 4pi steradian coverage
skydivingkittens@reddit
I think I understood 2 words in that sentence
HardlyAnyGravitas@reddit
DAS - distributed aperture system - more than one sensor all looking in different directions to give better coverage
IRST - infra red search and track - self explanatory
steradian - unit of solid angle - radians are angles in two dimensions (that subtend arcs in a circle), steradians are 'solid' angles in three dimensions (that subtend areas on a sphere).
4pi steradians - a full sphere (like 2pi radians is a full circle).
I don't know what IIR means...
So, basically, multiple sensors that give an infra red view in every direction around the aircraft.
:o)
Unable9451@reddit
IIR is imaging infrared, which is the style used on (for example) FLIR pods and many IR maverick seeker heads.
This is as opposed to non-imaging IR as used on, for example, Sidewinders.
Jango214@reddit
What's the difference?
One relays a human readable image and the other doesn't?
zdude1858@reddit
The OG sidewinder’s sensor could only sense hot/less hot. So it’s effectively a one pixel sensor.
This presents a problem, one pixel only tells the missiles that something hot is somewhere in front of the missile. So how does the missile know if it has to turn left/right/up/down and how hard should it turn?
The answer is a clever hack. The designers put a rotating shield in front of the sensor. The shield blocks part of the sensor so that it only received light from one direction, and the guidance computer is synchronized to the rotation so the guidance computer knows which direction it’s currently looking. If the signal only comes in from the right, then turn right. If the signal only comes from the left, turn left. If the signal is equal, you are looking straight at it.
Imaging infrared is equivalent to a multi-pixel camera where the guidance computer receives a full image, rather than a direction and signal level.
There’s some great YouTube videos that go into more details, and a few books on the development process at China Lake.
ZipGently@reddit
That’s great, but the question was: Where can I buy one for my Toyota?!
zdude1858@reddit
You can actually buy those from FLIR.
ccdrmarcinko@reddit
Can you share some bibliography with us ?
zdude1858@reddit
I found a PDF of this book: https://www.amazon.com/Sidewinder-Creative-Missile-Development-China/dp/1557509514
And also various YouTube videos like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Uwk4eiJ07o
ccdrmarcinko@reddit
I read the book, it is good for the beginnings of the Sidewinder, but rather light on further development and like zero info on IIR .
And it concentrates more on the program (and politics behind it) and less on the tech side
zdude1858@reddit
IIR information is probably still classified as that is how the current Sidewinder AIM-9X works.
My understanding is that it produces a picture, and software decides where to navigate to. I have never seen any more details than that.
BladyPiter@reddit
Probably works similar to Javelin system.
ZedZero12345@reddit
That's the best capsule description I've heard.
Boostedbird23@reddit
I thought the latest generations of IR missiles did use imaging to improve countermeasure resistance.. They look at the image of the target instead of just looking at how hot it is.
East_Mud2474@reddit
That's right. At least for the IRIS-T, used by many NATO members in Europe, but I think the 9-X use it too. Also some ABM system use IIR sensor to track and identify MIRV
Specialist-Tour3295@reddit
Is there like a book/ newsletter or is this just knowledge you accumulate?
East_Mud2474@reddit
Most of this more general stuff, e.g what kind of seeker a missile have can generally be found on Wikipedia. The sources are either specialized news site or press releases from armed forces and/or defence companies. However, you should always keep in mind that the fact that a certain weapons system can be produced, doesn't give you any meaningfully information on how many of the weapons can be produced, reliability, and how the process of integration in the wider force is proceeding (e g. you may have a really good cruise missile, but if you cannot fire it from your ship/aircraft for some reason it's just a really cool and expensive paperweight). For more detailed and interesting stuff, I generally rely on YouTube videos and Podcast (although doesn't matter how hard you try, if some information is classified, no matter how hard you search, unless someone fucks up, you are not gonna find the information). Also books can be interesting, but more for the historic side of thing.
Specialist-Tour3295@reddit
Gotcha, thanks!
East_Mud2474@reddit
If you'd like some suggestions, a handful of channel I watch are
Binkov's Battleground Millennium 7* HistoryTech (this guy's is very knowledgeable on the subject, but he some times takes pretty bold assumption) Great reapers ( they are more a sim/PC games channel, but they try to be pretty realist and some times interview real operator, for example a couple of weeks a go they had a THAAD operator in a video) Military aviation history Not a pound for air to ground ( this guy is more history centered, but is really good)
As for Podcast The Fighter Pilot podcast is really interesting, I listen to it often in my commute. Also the C.W Lemoine guy has great insight, but he is quite strict about thing like tech and tactics ( probably because is still in the reserve, so it's understandable)
technoman88@reddit
As well as most Chinese missiles like ty90, pl9, pl5, pl8, etc.
It's pretty common by now. Idk much about eussian missiles but I'd wager r37m has it too
DesiArcy@reddit
ASRAAM and AIM-9X use the same imaging infrared seeker head, IRIS-T is also imaging infrared but using a different seeker head independently developed by Germany after dropping out of the ASRAAM project.
RedditRedditGo@reddit
The new Block 6 ASRAAM uses a more advanced seeker than the AIM-9
DesiArcy@reddit
Higher resolution, but still mostly the same technology. The meaningful difference is that the Block 6 does not use any American parts and thus can be exported under sole UK control.
BladyPiter@reddit
Didn't they changed sidewinders to imaging in some version? Or i remember wrong?
DesiArcy@reddit
You remember correctly, the AIM-9X switched to an imaging infrared seeker system.
CyberSoldat21@reddit
The best thing to happen to the sidewinder if I am being honest
SkyeC123@reddit
I still have no idea what all that means. Lost me at geometry. Thank you for science. ;)
netchemica@reddit
He's pretty much saying that the F-35 has an IR camera that looks in all directions, similar to one of those 360 camera videos that you can drag around and look wherever you want.
Compared to the cameras you find on russian jets and many NATO jets such as the F-18 and F-16 that have a limited amount of where the camera can look and depend on which direction the jet is pointed. These cameras can be blocked by your wings or external fuel tanks, the F-35 cameras compile one complete image and the pilot can see an IR signature regardless of which way they're looking.
snutz4942@reddit
So like an F-150.
hcz2838@reddit
Basically, F35 has multiple sensors scattered around the aircraft each looks at a different direction. Together their coverage forms a complete sphere, aka full 360 deg coverage (but in 3D).
The_Canadian@reddit
Great explanation.
I don't remember this from any of my calculus classes, but it's been over a decade, so that's not surprising.
ttystikk@reddit
TIL thank you!
FriendshipGlass8158@reddit
Thats clear. But what does "basically" mean?
Maximusprime241@reddit
With and is
jorcon74@reddit
Is and with?
SycoJack@reddit
Is all I understood.
diepiebtd@reddit
Basically, and with... I went college
Cesalv@reddit
I went too, it was closed
anomalkingdom@reddit
I went three, wrong address
elmwoodblues@reddit
That doesn't matter when you're just there to mow the lawn
Cesalv@reddit
Almost, went to steal computers from their lab
anomalkingdom@reddit
I understood sensor
Iggins01@reddit
Was that even English
Citizen_Edz@reddit
Il up in 4 somehow 😂
Apalis24a@reddit
4π steradian?! Isn’t that 360 degrees on all axes - a complete sphere?
Goddamn, it really is an all-seeing eye.
blbobobo@reddit
it’s IRST, IRIS-T is a missile
hphp123@reddit
IRIS-T can be used as IRST when still attached to the jet
diaryofsnow@reddit
Pusha-T is a rapper
RustyiPooed@reddit
What about Ice-T?
Mist_Rising@reddit
That's a drink, duh
SamMalone10@reddit
Ice-T is an actor.
HornyRaindeer@reddit
T-Bag is rapist and serial killer
reddituserperson1122@reddit
He does have the ability to scan a fictional crime scene without radiating in the RF spectrum.
Silverado_@reddit
ICE-T is a train
WizardMelcar@reddit
You’re right. I could blame it on autocorrect; But it was likely just a typo on my part.
detonater700@reddit
Nitpicking but isn’t the IRIS-T a missile? I’m assuming you just misspelled IRST
Rich_Introduction_83@reddit
In Star Trek, Russia would be the Romulan Empire.
Scary_One_2452@reddit
I thought they'd be more like the Klingons
Science-Compliance@reddit
Funny you say that because the IRST sensor on the Felon is one of the worst features for its radar return signature. It's passive but very reflective.
tempskawt@reddit
F-22 was supposed to be fitted for it as well, I don't know if that was done or not
WarthogOsl@reddit
It wasn't, my understanding is that it was a budget thing
OracleofFl@reddit
Just something to reflect radar signals!
afito@reddit
everything is a trade off, a radar also increases your own radar cross-section yet everyone would agree that it's a necessary trade-off
FLIR/IRST is the same, it's incredibly useful particularly against stealth/low obs planes, but you trade a bit of cross-section, but just like with the radomes you can do lots of tricks to negate the loss to basically negligible
older planes are simply older and don't have their IRST integrated as well as the F35 does, if you look at other Western planes with tacked on IRST like Typhoon with Pirate, it's very similar because what else can you do
Mist_Rising@reddit
Everyone still insists on putting guns (autocannons today) on their planes, which has to be the single most questionable decision. I grant you the F4 was a bad call, but that was more to do with missile tech at the time being lousy. Today, odds of using cannons in a practical sense seems doubtful.
Doesn't apply to COIN planes or planes built around the gun (Gau-8 and its tagalong buddy the A-10). I can maybe see those still being useful.
jetserf@reddit
The F-35s IRST components are designed with stealth in mind. The OLS-50M does increase the RCS on the SU-57 due to its shape and placement. The OLS-27 and OLS-29 have similar issues.
blbobobo@reddit
that’s unfair against the su-57, its IRST dome has an inactive mode where it covers the sensor in a hemisphere of RAM. i’m sure it doesn’t fully mitigate the RCS difference but it’s something
canttakethshyfrom_me@reddit
Air combat is often unfair to inferior aircraft.
blbobobo@reddit
your sentence has absolutely no relevance to what i said, that’s great man
Falaflewaffle@reddit
I think you might have some issues with comprehension. The basis for what your statement was addressed it is the inferiority of the IRST sensor design and placement directly impacts the air combat capabilities of the airframe.
blbobobo@reddit
my comparison was putting the su-57s irst against older designs that distinctly don’t have the RAM cover mode. all i wanted to do was distinguish the new design from the older ones, not make any claim about its effectiveness in air combat
jetserf@reddit
I believe the primary purpose of the rotating dome on the OLS-50M is the protect the sensor components.
SolutionNo6490@reddit
I think the F-35 uses EOTS not IRST
BubbleRocket1@reddit
Iirc it’s thst glass dome below the nose, right?
1337af@reddit
That is the EOTS system. Like the other poster said, IRST is a separate system that consists of several sensor locations in different parts of the fuselage.
DesiArcy@reddit
EOTS is IRST + FLIR in a single unified sensor system. The one in seperate areas of the fuselage is DAS, Distributed Aperture System.
1337af@reddit
Yes, I misspoke and wrote IRST instead of DAS. The person I am replying to misinterpreted another poster's explanation of DAS as referring to the EOTS window.
matsutaketea@reddit
there are six little windows, one below the front cockpit canopy, two on cheeks below the cockpit to the sides and two on a wart on bottom of the aircraft facing forward and rear and one near the back of the cockpit canopy facing rear
BubbleRocket1@reddit
Yup that’s the one I was thinking of
DelyanKovachev@reddit
Russia has fighter jets?
Perfect-Engineer3226@reddit
I recognize sarcasm. Your joke flies over the head of every person that downvotes btw.
DelyanKovachev@reddit
I was serious
Perfect-Engineer3226@reddit
I retract my statement and distance myself from you.
DelyanKovachev@reddit
I know you are strange
Perfect-Engineer3226@reddit
People are strange when you’re a stranger
GuntherOfGunth@reddit
BMW makes sports cars?
DelyanKovachev@reddit
What did you PUTIN my tea?
616659@reddit
IRST is useful because, 1. It's at least something else other than radar. 2. It is passive so no RWR. 3. it doesn't care about stealth at all. 4. It also can't be jammed
C00kie_Monsters@reddit
What do you mean „still“ and „archaic“? They’re still useful as they can track targets passively. The F-35 has one as well and the F-22 was criticised by the internet for not having one
davidviola68@reddit
Never make the mistake of thinking the Russians are somehow inferior... they had 360 radar connected to the pilots helmet when the USA still had a 15 degree radar cone... back in the 80s
Administrative_Set62@reddit
In Soviet Russia, IRST still use you.
shortname_4481@reddit
Ok, so how to explain it? Imagine a bunch of people fighting in the darkness. Now, the radar is the equivalent of a flashlight. It allows you to spot the enemy, but it can be seen from afar and give your position away. The stealth is wearing black clothing that reduces the chances of being spotted. And IRST is like wearing a thermal imager. Basically negates the need for flashlight without giving away your position.
So the better question isn't why Su-57 has IRST, but why F-22 doesn't? TBF, F-22 lacks in target acquisition technology A LOT. No HMD (lock what pilot is looking at), so they either have to lock the target by the radar (setting off bells and whistles), or lock it off the bore sight (basically old-school point the nose at the target). They don't have Link 16, so they can't cooperate with other NATO aircraft (like, e.g., launching AIM-260 at the target that is being spotted by AEW&C plane).
Watch this video to get the glimpse of what F-35s can do when paired up with AEW&C aircraft. Opfor can't even know that the strike is coming because F-35 radars are off and Su just are not aware of the danger coming. In that scenario, F-22 would perform in-between F-35 and F/A-18. It would stay invisible to the enemy, but opfor will be aware of something coming because F-22 can't see the enemy without turning on their radars, which gives away their presence, which in turn is one of the reasons F-35 scenario is so successful - most planes got caught off-guard. (Not exactly sure that that's how it is supposed to be with low frequency long wave radars, but let's suppose that A-50 was too far away.
Maloninho@reddit
What about those rivets?
MisterrTickle@reddit
Russian radars are pretty crap. They may have a long claimed maximum range but they fall apart when subjected to Electronic Warfare. They're particularly going to have problems with F-22s and F-35s. Which are optimised to be invisible to the X-band radars used by fighter sized air to air radars, including those used on the SU-35 and SU-57. But it's harder to hide the Infra Red signature especially when using after burners.
Rodzynkowyzbrodniarz@reddit
Maybe western aircrafts are backwards and something like that (what is a standard thing in russian aircrafts) is only available as ad-don upgrade.
test_es_clamps@reddit
It's a good way of tracking without giving away the fact you're tracking, unlike radar. The main downside is there is no IFF without radar
Battlemanager@reddit
If you think the SU57 is 5th gen...I'd like to show you sell you some ocean front property in Arizona!
Taptrick@reddit
I don’t understand why you think it’s an “old” 4th gen thing, pretty much every modern fighter has some version of this.
Sentinel_2539@reddit
I didn't realise IR was considered outdated. Can anyone explain why?
Designated_Lurker_32@reddit
It isn't. OP is ill-informed. One of the F-35's biggest selling points is its 360⁰ coverage of high-resolution IRST cameras. The F-22, which originally was meant to have an IRST but wasn't fitted with one due to budget reasons, is being upgraded with integrated infrared sensors as we speak. Infrared imaging and targeting is indispensable in a modern battlefield.
Fibbs@reddit
I get all mecha nostalgic when I see these things.
Asorathe1981@reddit
Because Russia can't afford better.
FZ_Milkshake@reddit
IRST is just one tool in the box of tricks for a fighter jet. Historically it fits better with the soviet doctrine of aireal combat, where pilots are tightly controlled from the ground. It has limited range (and can't give a range to target), no IFF and provides less situational awareness. It works well with the C-scope display that most soviet jets used to use, but i tegrates poorly with the top down SA focused C-scope of western jets. In the most modern western jets with automatic sensor integration, lpi radar modes and better displays, the additional passive information is made easier to sigest for the pilot and often integrated into a targeting- or missile warning system.
afito@reddit
plus many airforces do not bother buying IRST / upgrading planes with IRST systems because as you say, it has very limited use with Western air doctrines, between range & weather impact, what point is there to it really when modern BVR missiles come with hundreds of km range, if anyone gets within IRST range you already completely fucked it up
it'll be interesting to see development of IRST especially in response to the newest gens of AA missiles like AIM9X or IRIS-T or modern BVR missiles like AIM120D or Meteor, but the whole "IRST to track stealth fighters" is a very Warthunder take I feel like
CrazyBaron@reddit
Is that why every Western modern jet have it?
afito@reddit
Define every? For most it's an upgrade that came down the line which isn't even used for every plane, both the Typhoon and the Rafale for example are still produced without their IRST systems.
CrazyBaron@reddit
Haven't seen any new Typhoon or Rafael without it, older variants from 20 years ago sure.
FZ_Milkshake@reddit
I think we'll see more of it in western jets as it should integrate really well with the latest generation of missiles with imaging IR seekers. The IRST can record the targets signature and communicate that to the missiles for added countermeasure resistance (probably supported by recorded database profiles).
Astra_Mainn@reddit
It can give range to target
PD28Cat@reddit
B-scope for westerns*
FZ_Milkshake@reddit
Autocorrect giveth, autocorrect taketh away.
PD28Cat@reddit
To B scope or not to B scope
Doc_Dragoon@reddit
Bro anyone find Goku yet? I'm looking in the circle but don't see him
Dr-Bonehead@reddit
I have no idea. I’m just trying to find Goku in these pictures
FtDetrickVirus@reddit
Why did the US copy the Russians by putting one on the F-35?
V0latyle@reddit
It's not at all archaic; since it is a passive sensor system, it doesn't emit anything that could alert the enemy to your presence. It is an excellent tool for stealth and ambushes; the enemy could be tooling along at 25,000 feet seeing nothing on radar and getting nothing on RWR, then suddenly get blown out of the sky by IR seeking missiles - which, again, use passive sensors, so the only warning is to either visually see them (difficult to impossible if someone launches from your low six) or a Missile Approach Warning system.
For some reason the USAF hasn't had much interest in either IRST or IR MAW until lately; the F-35 is the only current fighter that has IRST (but no IR MAW) although it is used on a few attack aircraft and many helicopters.
The F-22 was originally supposed to have IRST but it was dropped for some reason even though it would provide a significant advantage of surprise, especially combined with the AIM-9X.
Rayquazy@reddit
I have also long been searching for the answer to the difference in design philosophies between Russia and USA.
Deiskos@reddit
Because they aren't actually meant to fight peer adversaries, so a shitty reflective dome on the front of the aircraft is perfect for ground pounding / lobbing glide bombs / firing cruise missiles.
batmansthebomb@reddit
The IRST on the Su-57 can barely see ground targets, look at the location.
Gamer_4_l1f3@reddit
It always works and will never falter your expectations. Besides you can never truly hide thermal emissions from a machine whose propulsion uses dino juice.
Nordy941@reddit
It’s effective especially for not transmitting anything yourself it’s all passive
ShermanDidNthWrong@reddit
highfleet has taught me two things:
every problem can be solved with a sufficient amount of nuclear weapons
IRST is the only sensor that will not fucking kill you when the enemy has air supremacy
BraidRuner@reddit
What kind of useful range are the Russians getting in a head on engagement? I can see the use in a tail chase intercept but when looking forwards how much heat bloom does an aircraft provide in a non afterbuurning supercriuse config? Is it like two pencil marks in the sky pointing at the aircraft ? How persistent is the heat differential? Is it only good at high altitudes? Will ground clutter confuse it?
PicnicBasketPirate@reddit
Pretty much every modern fighter has (or can be equipped with) IRST.
F-35, Eurofighter, Gripen, Rafale, hell even the F-22s are supposed to be getting it.
EuroFederalist@reddit
Original F-22 designs had IRST (there images if the mockup) but later on abandoned but it was still shaped to deflect radar waves same way as F-35's has.
Su-57 has same kinda IRST found on older fighters.
Will_Is_Awesome@reddit
Supposedly the F-22 may be able to use its MAWS as IRST though the NGFWH.
Strict_Gas_1141@reddit
On the bottom of the F35's nose there is an IRIST in a stealthy housing (idk how stealthy but not an aerospace engineer)
Why do they use it? IIRC IRIST has some ability to counter stealth (radar returns and infra-red are kinda different), and if in the proper range it can give better signature tracking than radars.
DarthPineapple5@reddit
I mean you sort of answered you own question here. Western fighter do still use IRST, its just in a pod instead of integrated and the decision to include the pod or not is mission based. IRST still clearly has its place. Radar is great but its an active sensor the emission of which can be detected by the adversary and it doesn't allow for visual identification of the target which is pretty important under most typical rules of engagement.
Both approaches have their advantages. Integrated means less drag and it doesn't take up a weapons station. Podded is far easier to upgrade as technology advances, maintenance is easier and separate from the main aircraft and can be removed when not needed. Modern pods also provide more functions than just the targeting of aircraft and stealth aircraft like the F-35 have an integrated system in EOTS and DAS its just far more advanced than what the Russians are using
Ak_am@reddit
“Still” ???
ElectronicCountry839@reddit
You can hide a lot of things, but IR emissions (or temps relative to background) aren't one of them (right now anyways).
IRST is essential these days.
VespucciEagle@reddit
still?
AdAdministrative5330@reddit
Data link also helps with remaining relatively passive. AWACS or a single jet can scan the area and just share data to a fleet of aircraft with radar off.
Cheese_Grater101@reddit
SU75 definitely reminds me of a slimmer edition of Boeing X-32 😂
Another addition to the laughing jet variants
High_AspectRatio@reddit
Careful, you'll awaken the Russian fanboys
kRe4ture@reddit
IRST isn‘t a „still“ thing. IRST is pretty amazing because you can track planes and missiles without them knowing about it as it is a completely passive system.
Died_Of_Dysentery1@reddit
Passive detection is the future! You’ll see the US pushing it as embedded tech now, I guarantee it
Papa_PaIpatine@reddit
It's probably the space for the IRST, the module likely was already stolen and put on the black market a long time ago. I'm not sure, but I think that the vast majority of Russia's military equipment is completely disabled because people have been stealing and selling parts from them for decades at this point.
Merry-Leopard_1A5@reddit
because the ability to Search and Track InfraRed signatures is a useful ability to have if your aircraft's design can afford it?
Alastorisinlive@reddit
Because Russians fighters suck
stalln@reddit
Plus its only a shell. The insides may differ from generation to generation
TheRiceEmperor@reddit
long story short, the Russian air force think it is capable of detecting US stealth fighters
TestyBoy13@reddit
It also doesn’t give away your position to the enemies RWR unlike if they used their radar. That’s why every nation still has IRST
Nighthawk-FPV@reddit
IRST systems can definitely give away their location if they ever want to get an accurate range to their target due to many of them almost always using laser rangefinding.
TestyBoy13@reddit
True, but they don’t need to have the ranging on to track so they can still track targets without giving away their position unlike radar tracking which always gives away positions
dabigbaozi@reddit
Probably more effective than them spewing radar everywhere praying for a return.
Bet they make nice juicy targets.
auqanova@reddit
IRST has no emissions, this is a tremendous advantage in stealth, as you can get weapons locks on people who don't know that you see them. Additionally stealth designs generally aren't as effective thermally as they are with radar, so against modern stealth aircraft the irst may even have better detection and lock range.
The reason the United States didn't use irst much was that the tech wasn't really there yet. Back in the day it had such a short range that you were nearly in visual, no ranging ability, and couldn't fire radar missiles, while ir missiles also had low range. In its current state however, even the US wants some of it. It can see 2-3x its original distance, can range, and can likely(I haven't confirmed this) guide radar missiles via datalink.
The russians have been iterating on it for decades, and now that stealth exists, other countries are starting to realize its value too.
DTW_1985@reddit
There is an export version of the F16 with an integrated IRST in front of the pilot if I recall.
le_suck@reddit
"still" is the wrong way to look at it. The US is adding IRST on pods to 4th gen platforms like Super Hornet.
sixaout1982@reddit
Radar gives your position away to everyone, no matter how stealthy you are, but passive sensors don't. Imagine looking for people in a dark forest on a moonless night, you're wearing black so it's harder to see you, but the moment you switch your flashlight on everyone knows you're here.
Potential_Wish4943@reddit
"For the same reason our reactors do not have containment buildings around them, like those in the West. For the same reason we don't use properly enriched fuel in our cores. For the same reason we are the only nation that builds water-cooled, graphite-moderated reactors with a positive void coefficient"
"Its Cheaper"
Deiskos@reddit
"Vhat do you mean tovarisch, you think RBMK reactors can explode? Ve don't need \"containment\", it's perfectly contained already."
DukeOfBattleRifles@reddit
Why wouldn't you have IRST?
Usernamenotta@reddit
IRST is used to find stealth aircraft and targets
MattVarnish@reddit
My dad.. when he flew CF101s.. said that their IRST is the only way they could achieve a lock on certain jamming aircraft like B52s and F111s and ea6s and so on.
sliccwilliey@reddit
Dont they also use them for their long range heat seekers?
canttakethshyfrom_me@reddit
R-27T variant, at least.
canttakethshyfrom_me@reddit
Their main strategic rival excels in radar, both seeing and avoiding. They're hoping IRST gives them an asymmetrical capacity that can be exploited.
aviatornexu@reddit
It's just dope 🤣
ActivX11@reddit
Originally, even the F22 was supposed to have an IRST. Its being integrated now.
https://www.twz.com/43861/the-f-22-raptor-could-finally-get-the-infrared-sensor-it-was-originally-promised
EuroFederalist@reddit
Difference is that it was always supposed to have stealth shaping and materials while Su-57/75 have bog-standart IRST.
Marxelon@reddit
IRST - InfraRed Search and Track, better that RADAR because InfraRed only read "natural" emissions from materials (and it not works like as RADAR that emits a signal and receive a response handing over your position).
Relevant-Eko@reddit
Because the US made jets that are way easier to see in infrared than on radar
ppmi2@reddit
Why wouldnt they? Everyone does
aburnerds@reddit
that's a magnificent looking aircraft.
macetfromage@reddit
Also in another post they joked that the pilot cant look back in dogfights, true?