and so many European countries are importing people from this backward misogynist culture then they wonder why the far-right is taking over their country....
Maybe the people disagreeing with this should have stepped up some time in the last 20 years when the US was there to help. Instead as soon as the US left they traded their weapons to the taliban for iphones and went home.
Dying for a noble but doomed cause is dumb. Maybe the US shouldn't have struck a deal with the Taliban to free thousands of fighters without, you know, including our Afghan allies in the decision process.
By the logic of your first sentence, why should the West accept Afghani "refugees" and eventually have to fight against them when they try to impose their backwards beliefs on the West or when their communitiesgrt hijacked by radicals and they in lockstep with trying to impose sharia?
A man does not value what he has not earned. Afghans want the freedom they don't want to fight for. Abhorrent.
What a laughably privileged statement from someone who certainly hasn't earned the privilege they enjoy. You didn't fight for the franchise, you didn't fight to steal the wealth that paid for the founding of the institutions of government you now enjoy. You just sit online and justify keeping all that unearned privilege for "us" because "they" don't deserve it.
You're a coward masquerading as what you envision "hard" men are. Pathetic.l
No country is “importing” people and this article proves the point as to why countries want to help out people wanting to escape such fucking shit conditions/life they never asked for.
Take Fatima Peyman as an example. We took her in as an Afghan refugee, and she is still a citizen despite attempts to renounce said citizenship. She decides to enter governance by running in a rural district where there was no competition as a Labor party candidate. She gets the job by default and is sworn in as a senator. Then she immediately leaves the Labor party and forms an Islamic party against the population's will. Since then she's been all manner of toxic, pretty much exclusively talking about Palestine and pulling publicity stunts. As someone from Iran myself who got here because my family were refugees, she is a blindingly obvious example of Islamic invasion.
I failed to see the problem here. A muslim woman formed an islamic party and is talking about a muslim country currently under war, what's so egregious about it?
Because she got in on false pretenses. The vote was for the Labor party, not for her. She pretended to be involved with Labor only to betray the electorate and campaign for issues they as a rural farming district wanted nothing to do with. It's antidemocratic.
I'm ok. I'm speaking from lived experience. You know who isn't ok? Nika Shakarami, Aida Shakarami, Mahsa Amini, Armita Geravand, Donya Farhadi, Faranak Kameli, Anahita Amirpour, Kian Pirfalak, Hasti Narouei, Mohsen Shekari, Toomaj Salehi, Majidreza Rahnavard, Jamshid Sharmahd and countless more. This has been our burden as Iranians for our entire lives. We grew up in the shadow of the mullahs and it's always on our minds.
Sorry I hear Islamic invasion and it just makes me react negatively as I’m sick of the far right racism and propaganda here in the U.K. and that’s one of the ways they try to sell it. To be clear I am against people being forced to live in fear and under any type of terrorising regime, whatever the culture or religion. Be it interpretations of islam or interpretations of Christianity.
Let's say it loud for the people in the back: ISLAM ISN'T A RACE for the last f\*cking time. Whenever people say this, I know they are supremely ignorant and intellectually lazy. It's a RELIGION, just like Christianity and if you're horrified by the tenets and made-up claims of the 2nd Abrahamic religion of Christianity, wait until you hear about the THIRD version of Abrahamic religion. It is not fair to the people ESCAPING Islam to the West, only to suffer under the same fascist 7th century bs again.
Do you cope this hard for Scientologists? No? Then think very carefully about what you're saying.
Nobody is saying Islam is a race. The reason it’s racism is because the hate directed almost exclusively at non-white Muslims, Arabs, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Senegalese etc. You don’t see anywhere the same energy for Bosnians, Kosovars, Macedonians, Montenegrins or even Albanians who did get some flack more recently.
The recent riots in the UK were triggered because a black Welshman with Rwandan heritage stabbed some children, and the far right claimed he was a Muslim immigrant simply because he wasn’t white. It is 100% accurate to describe it as racism.
Countries are 100% importing people. You will never mask Germany's "Wir shaffen das" dogshit from the 2010's that started this shit, all to virtue signal.
>conditions/life they never asked for.
You don't remember what happened in 2021, do you?
We gave the Afghani 20 years of military training and the most advanced weapons on Earth si they could resist Taliban. The moment we left they laid down these weapons and welcomed Taliban with open arms. They took over the country in 24 hours.
Naive idealists like you cannot comprehend the fact that many people just want this opressive mysoginist bunch of people to rule their country.
Economics are reals though. Economics are probably the most important real problem because they affect everyone that's not a millionaire. They overwrite any progressive or leftist ideology. The Soviet Union found this out the hard way.
How can someone read/see this and go on the streets to protest for more of this?! There is no place for Sharia law in modern society.
150 150 150 150 150 150 150 150 150 150 150 150
There was a pretty decent size protest (3000ish people) in Germany asking for a caliphate and Sharia. Someone posted that in this group, plus people in my country keep asking for it.
Keep in mind though that those "neo-nazis" are the staunchest opponents of these pro-Caliphate protests. The government is adressing them with silk gloves.
So it's a bit disingenous to associate them with the pro-Caliphate protests that have been the topic of discussion here. Can argue on whether or not they would effectively eliminate them if they really were in power, but if the ruling parties don't even propose a course of action against it, one might be considering the mystery box over the one one knows is empty for sure.
An empty box is also more preferable over a box of Pandora. The story with AfD is the same with every extreme-right party in Europe: Just because they are the only ones who have the guts to tackle the issue of radical Muslim immigrants doesn't change that they typically have horrible economic policies, pretend like climate change is a joke that got out of hand, want to hand Ukraine to Putin on a silver plater and plenty of other problem that should absolutely not be ignored just because "Muslims".
Oh I agree, 100%. I hope them growing stronger and stronger at one point makes the others realize they don't get to dictate the will of the people, but are supposed to implement it. Like it worked in Denmark. But it seems our other parties are fully willing to die on this hill.
Nice try, but this was known at the time and the subject of widespread protests:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_German_student_movement
The generation who protested against the ex-Nazi officials became the next generation of politicians, so it effectively changed Germany's political culture.
Yes, but 3,000 protesters doesn’t mean it’s only 3,000 people who support it. It means 3,000 people in that specific area who support it made it to the protests.
Yep. I know this sub is very liberal. I am anti-Islam because I am liberal. I think liberals who get super tunnel-visioned on tolerance don’t understand that radical Islam is a real problem that also has to be addressed. Islam is not nearly secular enough yet, and we will go backwards into a right wing dystopia so fast if we passively let them spread their ideology as rule of law instead of personal choice
And what are you trying to impose?
Because I don't want either of it.
People are individuals, responsible for their own actions and views.
You can't undo that.
Yea but berlin is super immigrant heavy and alot of them are from Muslim countries. 3000 protestors out of a 3.87 million strong city just isn’t much at all.
If 3000 people demonstrated to erect the 4th Reich, or to ban Jews/Muslims/any minority completely, there would be public, international outrage and police would have broken that demo up in minutes.
That's not 3000 people wanting Sharia, that's 3000 people being brave enough (and with enough time) to demand it publicly. The amount who *want* it is much higher.
So what? Minorities are what matters.
In any islamic society, 50 percent of the population, are women. They dont matter politically anywhere. Another percentage points, are the young male boys, they dont matter. Another few percentages are the very old, they also cant decide anything. Many percentage points are the ones that dont care about politics and would go with anything- they would still be a butcher or whatever, a carpenter, be it under a dictatorship or a democracy, they dont really care. Another great part are the ones that dont like the islamists, but hate the values of the west more, so they would be passive spectators and would ultimately choose them if they would be forced to make a choice.
Bolsheviks in Russia were a fraction of the population. So what?
This is the far right, just a different flavor. Oppressing women in the name of religion is a far right trait. Racist, misogynist whites and radical, fundamentalist Muslims who call for Sharia law, have a lot more in common than most progressives are willing to admit.
That's not to say all Muslims are like that, obviously. Plenty Muslims of are, of course, normal, modern people trying to get by, like every other demographic. But there absolutely is a disturbing trend of extremely regressive ideas coming from a concerning amount of hyper religious zealots. There should be a reasonable conversation about this problem that doesn't devolve either into "ALL Muslims blah blah blah there brown and I don't like it", or "any criticism of Islam is racist and everything is totally fine!"
>Western nations need to clamp down hard on this.
Throwing away western values to curb a minute fringe would do more harm than good. Especially when their grievances are likely ethnic with religion only functioning as a proxy.
If anybody counts as fringe it's you mate. Allowing fascism, autocracy and hatred to exist on our streets is throwing away western values. How dare you gaslight us and advocate for our people to be subjected to this.
They broke the social contract. A tolerant society cannot tolerate intolerance. Once you break the contract you are no longer operating within the “tolerate” part.
I'm not a fascist. I advocate for women's rights and secular society every single day. I do not advocate for extremist bullshit like communism and Nazism. The mullahs and their cronies are likewise a cancerous blight upon this world. The laws we have in place against promoting terrorism, committing treason, not enslaving women are there because of the democratic legislative process which we are obligated to protect. Without going so far as to endorse subjugating non-violent civilians, it's on all of us not to permit ideologies that are not compatible with our society from taking over our spaces.
"Your custom is to throw a man's wife on his funeral pyre. My custum is to hang any man who kills a woman. I will respect your custom if you are willing to respect mine." -- a British officer of the Raj responding to the practice of Sati.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States
or I guess you could just google it and find all of the terrorist attacks, to include mass shootings, but yeah the US hasn't had any ig
>3K is WAY too many protesters asking for barbaric hatred practices towards women.
What do you wanna do, Uighur them? As long as they don't get their way and gradually assimilate, who cares?
> 3K is WAY too many protesters asking for ...
3K people didnt suddenly get together and start demanding it.
A much smaller fraction of those people got together and dragged a bunch of unemployed vulnerable extra friends and folk from their institution/street/disenfranchised youth club along with them.
Find a way to make the extras happier, or more fulfilled with their lives, and they wont be hanging round with the loonies that try to start this kind of nonsense.
...then instead of 3K people, you'll have 300 people, and you can just laugh at them while walking around them on your way to something more rewarding.
Because 3,000 is a lot of people to gather in the name of insane, misogynist, and backwards laws? How many people agree with these ideas who couldn't make it to the protest? If 3,000 Nazis assembled, would you still feel it's not worth reporting on?
I feel like people are very concerned about anti- Muslim sentiment because of the racist undertones that can happen in that context. It's good to be concerned about it, to keep a watchful eye but that doesn't mean signs of women hating, radical conservatives gathering on the thousands should be minimized or ignored.
Not everyone goes to a protest. It’s common sense dude. I’m not saying a particularly high number of Germans agree with it, just that not everyone who agreed with it was at that specific protest.
To normalize racism and discrimination against middle easterners in general.
Don't get me wrong, extreme religion doesn't have any place in modern society and should be removed. But some of the craziest forms of racism I've seen was in Germany and Europe in general.
Germany at least has some laws in place against such things.
In the US guys like David duke are legally allowed to go around saying what they say and fly a nazi flag. The courts have upheld their right to do this every time it’s been challenged.
Thus the same laws that protect me when I say trump looks like a tired Oompa Loompa protects those ass clowns cosplaying as brownshirts
It makes for an interesting dynamic but open mockery of these sad pathetic little men is the best way to deal with them
These religious types don't violate those laws that you're talking about. Personally, I question the utility of such laws and worry about the abuse. But that's a different topic.
What I'm talking about is how the media there likes to criticize migrants who "don't integrate", by which they mean speak their language at home even if they speak German at work and school, and stoke xenophobia by making these clowns seem much more prevalent among migrants than they actually are.
Considering how many people sympathise but didn't go, and considering how small germanys second biggest city is in comparison with US cities, it is significant and an alarming sign. Saying this is nothing is a huge mistake.
The KKK is basically a non-entity nowadays, precisely due to the reasons stated: a mere 3,000 people is simply a rounding error nowadays. Maybe back in 1880 it'd be different, but it's 2024.
That's just the ones fanatical enough to go out and shout about it, though. It's usually implied there's at least ten to twenty times the actual support for a given view then among people who are more averse to personal confrontation or just going on with their lives.
If you're actually doing this you're likely to be young and unemployed, and it's just as likely a lot of your family agrees but doesn't have time to waste on this.
It's also more than enough to have at least one radicalized murderer in their midst. I hope the rest of them have enough humanity to report the person when they start spouting their murderous hate.
Republicans aren't exactly doing the rest of us any favors, sadly they decide to make things worse anyways. Hateful bigotry has an unfortunate habit of sticking around...
Yep. "Protect the children."
*literally denies federal protection of ALL children if it means they have to recognize LGBTQ+ rights*
Not THOSE children!
What does sharia law have to do with this nonsense happening in Afghanistan?
Even within sharia law it is the insane low IQ morons making their own interpretations just to subjugate women and stay in power.
The biggest shameful thing is the US destroying the country in the guise of fighting the Taliban, and decades later they just let Taliban come back in and just basically start all over again.
It's an excuse for "the West" to hate Muslims. The US had our own moral panic about it 10-15 years ago; Shariah law means everything from "we would like to have religious matters decided internally" (i.e. you need to have volunteer counseling with an imam to work out the differences before divorce as a form of arbitration, something not limited to Muslims) to whatever the Taliban says.
It's not like people are unaware of doctrinal differences across religious sects, Islam is just even more foreign and the names are "strange" so it's easy to demonize.
>There was a pretty decent size protest (3000ish people) in Germany asking for a caliphate and Sharia.
That's out of millions of German muslims, many of whom have never had to deal with anything even approaching theocratic rule.
I doubt most of the people getting themselves worked up about the protest understand Shariah, either. If they did, they might realize listening to the Taliban about the matter is like listening to the Westborough Baptist Church to decide what all of Christianity thinks about gay people.
“40% of British Muslims supported “there being areas in Britain which are pre-dominately Muslim and in which sharia law is introduced”
There has been multiple polls like this ranging from 30%-50% over the years. There’s 4 million Muslims in the UK.
There’s similar figures for France where there are 6 million Muslims
I think it's certainly a possiblity that people who are willing to take part in these types of polls are not representative of the general population. If you're a Muslim with strong enough feelings towards Sharia law to go out of your way to participate in a survey that talks about it, odds are good that you're not the chill type of Muslim.
I think you’re coming up with an idea of how this poll is conducted and then coming to the conclusion you want. For it to work how you say, they would need to ask this question first then advertise for Muslims to come and answer the question, and only “certain” Muslims who want it will submit their answer
I think I'm coming up with an idea of how emotionally-charged polls like these *are* conducted, yeah. But I'll also point out that *you* posted the results of these polls without linking to them or talking about their methodology.
Questioning sources isn't the same as excusing abhorrent ideas. I can dislike the idea of sharia law *and also* dislike reactionary propaganda that uses it as a dog whistle to provoke hate for brown people in general.
No you’re not. You’re trying to cast doubt on a poll that goes against your narrative. You’re throwing out lame and basic issues with polls to lessen the effects of such damning numbers. Just accept that some of your poor “brown people” actually have some absolutely abhorrent ideologies and deserve the hate they get. Clearly not all of them because a poll shows the majority don’t, but 40% even minus 10% is still very large portion.
You aren’t fooling anyone with your intellectual dishonesty. Stop holding water for people who are good views antithetical to western values.
More precisely than casting doubt on a poll, I am in fact trying to cast doubt on the result of a nebulous "multiple polls".
Fuck off with your accusation of intellectual dishonesty when the object of the discussion is a statistic that didn't even have a single citation.
Im just gonna clear some things up real quick. A majority of muslims are in favor of sharia. That same majority also understand that there is not a single country on earth today that actually practices sharia but instead use it as a scapegoat for their corruption (such as iran and afghanistan). This is why they dont typically ask for it and hesitate to bring it up with non-muslims. With the way corruption is spread in the world, it will never be implemented correctly.
Sharia as it is ***supposed*** to be implemented is a fair law. Unfortunately, human corruption has ruined it.
Sharia, as it is supposed to be implemented, is a centuries old cultural and legal system that is irrelevant to anyone with modern Western values, just like any other theocracy. Women's rights are horrible even in your idealised form of Sharia, as are non-Muslim rights. Let's not even get into atheism
Your original comment was “pretty much nobody in the developed world wants this”.
Look, it’s ok to admit you’re wrong. You’ve learned something. Stop clutching at straws and drop it.
[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/death-to-canada-vancouver-rally-1.7346760](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/death-to-canada-vancouver-rally-1.7346760)
Hundreds so not large
The majority of Afghans polled were in favor of strict Sharia law, which was exactly what the previous Afghan government had. The Taliban, however, is on an entirely different level.
It’s not about Sharia vs no Sharia but rather the degree of it.
Not even the degree, the interpretation. Different sects are going to argue over it, most have more liberal interpretations, the Taliban is more extreme, even by the standards of other extremists.
"from a peer-reviewed and reputable source"...lol
Do you need a Harvard study for every burglary in a petrol station to believe that it happened? Fucking americans i swear...
Peer-reviewed sources apply specifically to scientific research, where findings are tested and validated through the scientific method. News media, on the other hand, operates on a system of credibility and trust, where a publication’s reputation is built over time through consistent and accurate reporting. In journalism, reliability often comes from well-established sources and the track record of the reporting organization.
> 10k Muslim "refugees" in Hamburg were protesting for the establishment of Caliphate in Germany.
Afaik the organizers talk about 3k, [police estimate 1.1k](https://www.dw.com/en/germany-hamburg-caliphate-rally-prompts-calls-for-punishment/a-68971732), out of about 5.5 million Muslims currently in Germany.
The people that do usually sit in dark basements ranting about how good sharia law is on the internet, but would never step foot in a country that practices it.
I don't recall Hamas making any rules at this insane level. Women in Gaza aren't enforced to wear the hijab and music isn't banned. They are more like ISIS in their peak
> music isn't banned
Oh?
[Look how many trucks. Just because they are singing songs](https://youtu.be/I1M4eH9Kk7I?si=5O7MU3VueWO5kVmP)
Shooting the bride and groom is the Hamas idea of a wedding gift
And I have know some use the boshiya there but I confess I haven't kept up on women's fashion
Well let’s add context to this
On one side you have hamas who originally was a charity that built orphanages and did charity work. Most important they weren’t about killing isrealis.
Now on the other side you have the PLO who have started multiple wars against Israel.
Hindsight is 20/20 but at the time it’s a clear choice for which one to support
A good rule. Encourages people to actually engage with an article or topic instead of simple one line quips or opinions like "Politician bad" or "Country bad"
Only problem with it is that enforcement doesn't seem to be strict enough
I mean, unless I have an essay to write, I usually just end up not commenting at all because of it. I used to ask a lot of questions hoping people with more insight or knowledge could enlighten me, but now, no…
It accomplishes nothing besides forcing people to pad and fluff their writing like it's some middle school book report. "Five paragraphs, four sentences per paragraph, double spaced, blah blah blah".
Concision and brevity are virtues that such rules actively discourage.
> Yeah but at the same time it prevents short valuable statements too
Legitimately asking, like what? Usually short statements end up being very basic opinions redditors hold on a topic without any valuable insights
> And you can still write "Opinion bad" a few times to get around it
Which is why I said enforcement isn't strict enough.
Is this even Sharia law at this point? Like there's a country in the Middle East called Bahrain that apparently follows Sharia law, but pork, alcohol, and being gay are all legal. This is just unhinged shit lmao
Sharia law is a major cornerstone for their legislation, but it is balanced with a civil code. Its not just Sharia Law as a judicial code but more that Sharia law is a backone for their current law. Similar, as I understand it, to how much of the US legal code is based on the English common law, US constitution, and biblical law.
>There is no place for Sharia law in modern society.
Just to point out that the taliban are an extremist group. Their interpretation of sharia law will be extreme. There are many Muslims who interpret sharia law from a progressive viewpoint, wanting to draw it into line with current human rights law. Just like our own system of law and order, progression is being made with sharia law to move to progressive ideals. It's not necessarily sharia law that is the problem, it is the interpretation of it that is(just like our own systems of governance)
Family of Jude sounds Christian so no. Shariah law is the set of laws written in the Islamic Quran and sometimes derived from the Hadith(sayings of our prophet). Silencing women isn't in there
Our conservatives in the US want this. Will they say it? No. Will they be able to implement it that strictly? No. But they'll continue to take steps to strip the rights of women, one at a time. If "dictator on day one" wins, then this process will move a lot faster.
Religious zealots all want this crap.
How are you from Pakistan and not know that Sharia guides all Muslims including laws in Pakistan? This isn’t Sharia, this is their screwed up interpretation of Islamic law
it’s either idiot basement incels or idiots who don’t know what sharia law is nor have they done any research into islamic history and then complaining about people being none believers and then wanting a caliphate and sharia law.
source: i’m a muslim and the amount of kids ik in the UK who advocate for sharia law and lose their mind at others who don’t follow islamic practices while they drink and drive is hilarious
Implying you understand sharia while calling it “sharia law” is ironic.
I do agree that today’s muslim youth, especially in the UK, are becoming increasing hypocritical. Its shameful.
Fr. People don’t have any idea. They act like the fiqh of some extremist fucks is representative of the shariah, and that it’s something to aspire to. It’s extremely foolish
Because they get shot if they do so. There were protests against Taliban rule towards the beginning of their new reign, but they were brutally suppressed.
Unironically this is quite common in countries like Afghanistan and Pakistan as a result of the oppression of women - see bacha bazi and the treatment of young boys in areas like Peshawar
The Taliban actually oppose bacha bazi and have a death penalty for those that pratice it. The US actually looked the other way when they occupied the area to not piss off the local war lords. None of this is to endorse the Taliban.
Reminds me of how the ancient Greeks and Romans would fuck boys — and they, too, were highly patriarchal societies. Nobody batted an eye as long as you were the top.
This would happen to some extent, but much more likely that it drives another war of expansion to take more women from the surrounding communities. It is how Islam spreads after all.
I guess this is what the world looks like without USA being the global police. If it was me I would nuke Afghanistan or castrate every man who supports this but we are just going to live and let live now. Hopefully the women will poison their men and sort it out.
Except its US fuckery that has caused for these societies to be able to get roots, what with the US having funded these proud "freedom fighters" and all.
You must be thinking of the Biden administration funding the taliban with millions of US taxpayer dollars that have been diverted, and billions worth of US military equipment abandoned to the Taliban during the US mil withdrawal debacle.
No, I'm thinking of the US' proxy wars against Russia by using local militia's like the famed freedom fighters of Al'qaida.
The US is the reason these guys got power to begin with.
Then you should think harder and learn the difference between mujahideen and the Taliban, which are different groups with different origins at different times.
The problems of the region predate the existence of the US, their government policies based on hard core conservative Islam values are the big bad here. US merely another footnote to their history.
They're going full steam ahead back to the full actualization of the former IEA state of 1996 - 2001 and implementation of all its policies, picking up where they left off before the ousting in 2001. Except, being somewhat familiar with their previous state during that period, I don't even remember a specific policy this hardline actually being a thing then. Someone correct me if I'm wrong or overlooked it.
Anyway, it's not going to stop. As I continually keep saying in the case of all news like this related to the new Afghan government's consolidation of power and realization of their vision, it is not up to any foreign power or outside force any longer. It's their country, their rules now. All day every day.
Well, yeah. The Taliban's back in power now because enough Afghans are basically fine with it. It's not about voting or electoral participation. They're allowed in power by enough of their own populace.
What a lot of people don't realize is that every government there is or ever was in human history requires some degree of consent, acceptance, and participation of the governed population. Even the absolute monarchies, Stalinist state, Khmer Rouge, etc.
So when a point in time comes in the future when this state falls, as all states eventually do, it will be because a critical mass of the Afghan people no longer do, for one or more reasons. No one can say whether that'll be in five years or 500.
The US drove the taliban into the mountains and then trained and armed an afgan army. As soon as the US left, the afgan army just dropped their weapons, walked home, and let the taliban take over. This is entirely on them.
Not really. Governments need the consent of whoever wields power, but that’s often not representative of the civilian population. A government like Saddam Hussein’s was wildly unpopular but it didn’t matter because he had the consent of the military.
Popularity and unpopularity is a different matter than consent to continue to govern though. Popularity matters in an actual election. I'm talking about the state's ability to continue to remain in power and govern day to day. It doesn't necessitate full agreement or really any agreement at all from the majority of the civilian populace. As long as people don't all protest around the clock, riot, walk out of every school and work facility, or pick up a gun or an improvised explosive and fight, then that's all that matters. And as long as the majority of people feel opposition to the state is not worth risking their and their family's home and lives for the time being, then the state is safe.
your definition of consent is so wide that it is pretty much meaningless. It’s consent to not be killed. By this definition the majority of European Jews consented to the Nazi government because they didn’t die fighting to not be taken to camps.
And sure, you can define consent as such, but then your next logical step that because they “consented”, it’s their problem and responsibility, that’s where you’re wildly wrong.
They're not saying consent of the society means consent from everyone. It's about a majority of the population, because no government can survive 51% of people turning against them. Plenty of jews did fight back and often those who didn't, couldn't because they were isolated and overpowered. Not to mention it took awhile before they knew what went on in those camps.
And yeah when you're talking about the society as a whole it kinda *is* their problem and responsibility, because we know how well interventionism works for making a society *less* radical. We can offer aid, resources, information, etc, but ultimately societal change comes from within.
> because no government can survive 51% of people turning against them.
Yes they can, that’s my point. All the government needs is the people with the bigger guns to be on their side. Saddam Hussein was wildly unpopular among the majority of the population.
They were united against this, then the US signed a treaty with the Taliban, released thousands of fighters, and the stalemate that was only a stalemate thanks to US involvement was going to end. You could either fight, die, and lose everything or not fight, not die, and retain a power base.
Not at all, unless you think the Taliban has even more ability to enforce laws across the country than the old government did. It's not sunshine and roses by any means, there's just not the state capacity to enforce something like this.
What about their sons? These women RAISE sons to be like this, and they do it because there are too many "pick me" women in these societies (mothers/mother in laws). who condone and perpetuate this crap in order to wield a little power for themselves. They RAISE their sons to be like this as well. It's a horrific cycle of toxicity and abuse with no real end. Women are not minorities, so their biggest obstacle is a lack of solidarity/ unity.
Is there like an official government press release or something? I honestly cannot believe they would do something so silly. Like…this is cartoon evil levels of silly.
sometikes I find it funny how Westerners are clues about Islamic society. although there's no laws like this in my country, many men here have full control of their wives life to the point that women aren't allowed to talk back to their husband and they aren't allowed talk to other men.
This isn’t true in no place in the United States is anything like this happening or at the least socially or politically acceptable. Hyperbolic comments like this are just so disingenuous
I literally worked with such a case this week. Woman abused by her husband for decades controlled by religion and her lack of income. Her father and family and religious leaders telling her repeatedly to go back to her abuser and make the marriage work.
Your ignorance of what is happening doesn’t make it false.
This isn't a societal norm ingrained in the culture of America though. Many countries in the Middle East have an established system that marginalizes women in extreme ways.
And in highly religious areas of America the same still applies. Husband, family, and religion all working together to marginalize abused women. I really don’t understand what or why you are arguing here. They said it didn’t happen in the west, I know it does, and it does. In both Muslim, Christian, and Mormon households in the west that I personally know about.
If husband, family, and local religion isn’t the persons culture then I don’t know what is. I am not pretending that all of America is equal to all of Afghanistan. I am pointing out that we can’t turn a blind eye to local abuse and cultural problems just because this isn’t Afghanistan. That those same problems exist in the west and are more hidden. That the places you find those issues tend to be the most religious.
> Did you know the average victim tries to leave 7 times before they successfully leave.
I don't want to take anything away from the victims you are helping, but ask yourself if the women OP was talking about in this thread can even contemplate leaving and then you'll understand why being abused in a society where it is illegal is very different than being completely without a hope. It is like the difference between having an abusive manager and legal slavery.
Horrible people exist everywhere. Cases of abuse exist everywhere. But you live in a society which actively tries to identify these cases and free the victims while the other people live in a society where the abuse is normal, expected, legal.
Please try reading through it again. You clearly missed the thread of the conversation. Actually, now that I look back both your comments are complete non sequiturs.
> non sequiturs
The use of this term indicates that I'm talking to a person who is not interested in the subject of the conversation and probably has been lying about their relevant experiences in the area. I have no interest engaging with such people so I'm just going to block you.
It doesn't happen at a governmental level, it's usually weird religious cults engaging in sexual abuse of various sorts.
Though a lot of people in government seem to want to bring it to that level.
Very rural America. Usually you only encounter them at highway rest stops or maybe a rinky-dink Walmart in the middle of nowhere. The women won’t speak a word to anyone, and the crusty-dusty men with them scowl and give threatening energy to anyone who even glances in their general direction.
Often the woman and accompanying girls have extremely long hair, sometimes in a bun, and are wearing long skirts/dresses.
And when I mean they won’t speak to anyone- I mean literally. They don’t even respond to common pleasantries like ‘good morning’ or ‘thank you’. They just ignore your whole presence entirely.
It gives off a vibe that they aren’t supposed to talk to anyone not in their family.
You know what this reminds me of? When US slave owners banned their slaves from speaking any language but English so that they couldn't conspire against them.
Legitimate question from someone in tune with geopolitics, but not with middle eastern political cultures. Is this likely to form resentment and resistance to the Taliban? I'm not sure how long infringement upon basic human rights like this would last in any nation.
There is no where near enough men in Afghanistan to rebel against the Taliban and the women in Afghanistan have no power whatsoever. I think it’s gonna take another decade or two of this Pol Pot level shit before the world decides to go into Afghanistan again. Because what’s next, eventually? Will they eventually remove women’s vocal cords en masse or deafen them so they can’t talk back to anyone or communicate? Will rape one day become a punishment of a woman’s crime in Afghanistan? The Taliban are insane, and they are way to powerful to be dealt with for the civilian population alone. Even just refer to how fast they seized Kabul a couple years ago. By now they’re even more unstoppable. The west could definitely roll in and take the country back but the native population doesn’t stand a chance. Not that I’m advocating for western intervention btw I don’t know what the solution is.
I was once told that the west has its most successful interventions when they are both carrot and stick. The example that was given was Japan. The US left enough of the Japanese government intact through out WW2 that they could take an unconditional surrender from someone, use their command structure to enforce that surrender, levied to them terms that largely amounted to maintaining only a small self defense force and giving up all colonies, and finally, extended the reconstruction effort to their country. In Afghanistan there has been less than a 10 year period where the same government has been in control for more than a century so the US would have had to start from scratch which had not worked for almost any former Ottoman state. I have a feeling that depending on the way the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and the Israel Hamas conflict progresses intervention from the west may still be on the table. . . That thought makes me throw up in my mouth a little.
A Taliban speaker once admitted in front of a women's rights activist that letting the girls go to school threatens their power.
Think about it, wether it's the Taliban, Christofascists in the US, Russia, India etc. the more right wing extremist, the more oppression of women.
That's why empowering women is the best answer against these dark ideologies. It's something every single one of us can contribute to.
Many users? I see one comment that could be interpreted as supportive at the bottom, probably from a troll, but you make it sound like the majority of people here are in favor of this. Weird.
> you make it sound like the majority of people here are in favor of this. Weird.
I gather most products born entirely of your imagination fit that bill
That's a new dimension in total control. A prisoner in your own skin. Totally against human nature. My 9 year old daughter silenced, I wouldn't want to imagine.
This may have made sense in ancient times when life was violent short and wracked with diseases but this is the 21st century. What use is marriage to a young girl?!
It absolutely didnt, chance of mother and child dying during birth increases exponentially towards those ages and thats exponentially compared to the norm of the time.
Islam is 7th century cult made by Arab barbarians and Muslims refuse to reform their religion because they believe that Quran are literal words of Allah and they are eternal.
To feed your ego.
After all, the younger she is, the greater the chance that she is a virgin. Therefore, you will be the first to pick the flower (and not some pimply brat who doesn't even know what to do).
It's not limited to there or Islam, Christian groups in the US are why many states have marriage ages as low as 15 and several have no lower limit set, period. Almost always older men with younger girls.
How are women supposed to teach women anything with this rule? Even in a patriarchial society, the women must be educated in order to maintain the home and raise the children. These people are utterly decimating their society by robbing women of basic rights. This is Pol Pot tier crazy.
There is no where near enough men in Afghanistan to rebel against the Taliban and the women in Afghanistan have no power whatsoever. I think it’s gonna take another decade or two of this Pol Pot level shit before the world decides to go into Afghanistan again. Because what’s next, eventually? Will they eventually remove women’s vocal cords en masse or deafen them so they can’t talk back to anyone or communicate? Will rape one day become a punishment of a woman’s crime in Afghanistan? The Taliban are insane, and they are way to powerful to be dealt with for the civilian population alone. Even just refer to how fast they seized Kabul a couple years ago. By now they’re even more unstoppable. The west could definitely roll in and take the country back but the native population doesn’t stand a chance. Not that I’m advocating for western intervention btw I don’t know what the solution is.
I see in western countries, people will say we should be tolerant of other cultures when people point out how some cultures are incompatible in western countries. So why are the same western people upset about this? This is the culture you are telling us to be tolerant of after all. That's why we never let these people impose their beliefs back home.
I don't think this would be in any religious book outright, but probably in a certain context, it's possible (don't speak loudly when someone is sleeping, something like that). These guys are making their interpretations, not sure what their objectives are. But this would be unsustainable not just in the modern world, but even in the old times.
There's a reason why you won't see this across the 2 billion muslim world, it's not rooted in Islam. Cultures can be extremely repressive to people too, but people ignore the cultures there to push their narratives about Islam.
Effing weak, pathetic losers, these men. Imagine being so weak, so owned by your penis, that you forbid women from being outside without complete coverage! They hear a woman's voice and sin!
The entire world should ban together to mock them, loudly and on every channel. They should be made aware that we see them as sad, savage little beasts who are so afraid of being human they deny others their humanity. And they can't even govern anything for shit.
My heart breaks for my Afghani sisters. What can we do for them?
I almost feel sorry for them. true US provided their government with the means to succeed running a country. The only running was their cowardly men then the taliban came to take over….they made this bed themselves….
I mean yeah. It wasn’t exactly fair to liberate men from listening to caterwauling but still subject the women to it.
Anyways, if you call their culture inferior you’re doing a heckin bigotry and Islamophobia. Islam is right about women.
That's straight out of a scifi dystopian novel. And to think there are people who actually WANT this. I'm hoping that a majority of what we're seeing online is generated by bots due to the US election, but with two billion Muslims in the word who have been recently emboldened, I'm not sure.
Some very fragile and inadequate men in the Taliban. Wow, I'd be ashamed as heck to support something as whack as this, let alone publicly voice such a bonkers ruling.
Well that's the price Afghans have to pay when "bad, colonialist American" was "occupied, their territory". Time to learn a hard lesson for being on your own .
Remember that this is the culture that liberals and progressives tell us that we need to "accept" and be "enriched" by. Do you see how much you can "learn" from this? Wow.
The same people will also tell you that this is an equal culture to Western Europe and liberal democracy, while telling you that Europeans have no culture and therefore have nothing worth protecting. Never submit to their doomism and nihilism. It's self destructive.
I feel so sad for these women. Its sad to think people are protesting in Western countries to bring this type of crap over or say that these women actually want it. These countries are attacking women rights.
Think of sharia law as the perfect theory. But rarely in practice is it implemented the way it is meant to.
In some way, you can argue it’s because Islam is a perfect religion that imperfect humans horribly fail at implementing it
Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism, Sikh fundamentalism, Hindi fundamentalism......they have all committed atrocities and terrorist acts in their name.
It's not exclusive to Islam. It never has been. And in no way did I excuse Islamic terrorism.
All terrorism (and fundamentalism) is fucked up.
Most religion =/= all religion. There are plenty of pacifist religions out there such as Bahai, or rather they used to be until the mullahs killed massive amounts of them.
Islam is the worst offender and that is undeniable. For all of the violence and cruelty, no other religion is banning women from existing. That is completely incompatible with all forms of life. People like you show up whenever this is brought to attention trying to detract from their atrocities even if you later deny it. It's a toxic form of propaganda that I'm personally sick of having to engage with.
Right so Christianity was peaceful in the new world, the Spanish inquisition, crusades, Christian fundamentalism in the USA etc etc etc.
Also women have always been second class citizens in Christianity.
There's no denying Islamic fundamentalism is shitty but it's following in a long tradition of shitty religions and cults.
Religion/cult one in the same really.
If you have an agenda against Islam that's okay but Islam is not the only religion that has its fundamentalist adherents.
The republican party in the USA is currently disempowering women using religion as a tool.
Zionism is using religion to commit atrocities in Palestine as we speak, killing men, women and children indiscriminately because some made up fairytale in a book told them some shite thousands of years ago.....they are actively using religion to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the earth.
And the mask comes off. You hate Jewish people, we get it. Can't even acknowledge the Taliban exterminating women without you pulling up Palestine. I'm Iranian. The mullahs killed half my family for being Bahai. A lot of that is because they were so passive that they never lifted a finger until basiji invaders were already purging our homeland. Palestinian suffering is the work of the IRGC first and foremost. Islam is a curse upon this world and it's clearly gotten a hold of you too.
What mask? I hate all fundamentalists. I hate religion. It's a cancer.
The world would be a much better place with no religion at all.
Sorry for your loss but it doesn't change what is happening in the rest of the world.
As I said get rid of religion full stop. It's a cancer that's destroyed large parts of humanity.
>As I said get rid of religion full stop.
At which point you're implying that my family deserved to die because they were religious pacifists. Secular society works for a reason and it must be protected.
>I don't hate Jewish people at all. I hate Zionists.
You hate Jewish people, but saying the quiet part out loud is a bad look. So many Israelis and Jews get dogpiled just for existing, being born and raised in circumstances outside of their control because of successful IRGC propaganda. Shira Haas, Noa Argamani, Shirel Golan and professor Steven Prawer are all great examples of this. Note that I will not tolerate whataboutism here because these people did not deserve the treatment they received.
The suffering of Palestine is real and it's gruesome, none of it should ever happen, but it is facilitated by the resources stolen from our dead bodies being directed against the most reactionary bastards in the Knessett. Sayyad sniper rifles and IRGC owned soviet weapons were used to enact October 7th. Mohammed Zahedi, an IRGC general, planned October 7th with Sinwar. Ismail Haniyeh the invader died in Tehran not far from where we used to live. Raisi executed hundreds of thousands of us real Iranians over the years only for the UN to hold a damn funeral for him.
With all of this considered, at some point you have to ask if what you're advocating for is too far. My people in Iran right now are without power, internet, safety or sovereignty purely because of Islamic terrorism. The mullahs are the true source of violence in this conflict and they are the reason for your hatred. Iran must be returned to us in order for the violence to end.
You have a skewed view of things. I never said your family deserved to die. I said more is less the opposite. Religion was the cause of their death - so no religion no cause it's death.
Re Palestine - what happened there on Oct 7 was terrible. It's a result of Israel occupying the Palestinians' land since Israel was founded in the middle of the last century.
It all comes down to religion the in the end.
Get rid of the mullahs (not as easy as saying it). Then get rid of religion. It's only a curse.
I and many people I know don't have any religion and we're just fine.
Sadly it was, I reported his other comment on r/AskMiddleEast few hours ago so I might got him banned, some of his comments were in Levanite Arabic and it didn't sound like Google translated fus7a (standard Arabic)
Question...could this be circumvented with simple voice changes...could we make everyone sound like Darth Vader? I know this is serious, and I'm partially serious. No one should be barred from hearing another's voice, or having your own voice heard.
Normal healthy men in a normal healthy society love their women and can't get enough of them. The level of misogyny the Taliban are hitting is just outing themselves as closet homosexuals at this point.
Also mods, if you see this, your implementation of the 150 characters requirement is idiotic and you should remove it. You're not increasing the quality of content in the comments, you're just driving away the casual users.
How are women supposed to do the shopping now? Point at what they want? Hand over their best guess at the total? What if in the process someone sees their sinful sexy hands?
They can’t leave the house except in the company of a man. A man/boy will now have to order for them, taking over/gaining more control over women. With this they are confined to their homes.
Meanwhile leftist parties all over Europe are advocating for open borders which will lead to the eventual shariafication of Europe. In Brussels a literal Sharia party got elected to city hall.
Serious question. At what point is it going to just be more humane to these poor woman and children to just nuke the entire country and put everyone out of their misery?
Well, thats psychotic. I think women would literally go insane if they cant talk. The only solution to that would be talking a TON to their husband which would drive the husband insane
Simple solution, find a way to legalize domestic abuse.
Oh wait, they already do that after labeling them something along the lines of this wife does not respect the tradition version update 4.35
I'm not kidding, I think they're working themselves up to surgically muting their women. Or deafening them. Whichever can be done quickly on a large scale.
While the Taliban are obviously a pack of cunts, this is a nothing story with 0 evidence. It's am exaggerated headline to sell stories.
Even the article itself says "Although precise details of the Taliban’s ruling are unclear". They offer no evidence whatsoever other than 1 lone anonymous source.
The only voices that will be permitted under the Taliban are the ones inside your head that fade in and out every single day telling you random things and giving you existential dread.
and so many European countries importing people from this backward culture and then they wonder why the far-right pwrtoyng taking over their country....
That seems a little extreme. How about a compromise between the two sides where they can talk to each other as long as it still fails the bechdel test?
Wooo more sanctions on afghanistan so we collectively can feel good about ourselves and punish the taliban cause they beat our assses on their home turf.
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> # [Taliban bans women from ‘hearing other women’s voices’](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/world-news/2024/10/28/TELEMMGLPICT000399760457_17301429076620_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqpVlberWd9EgFPZtcLiMQf0Rf_Wk3V23H2268P_XkPxc.jpeg?impolicy=OG-Standard)
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> Militant group is ‘waging an all-out war against us’, says one Kabul resident in response to the bizarre rule
>
>
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> The Taliban has banned women from hearing other women’s voices in its latest attempt to impose a hardline version of Islamic law on [Afghanistan](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/afghanistan/).
>
> In a rambling voice message on Monday, the country’s minister for the promotion of virtue and prevention of vice announced the bizarre new restriction on [women’s behaviour](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/08/22/taliban-bans-afghan-women-looking-strange-men-loud-talking/).
>
> Although precise details of the Taliban’s ruling are unclear, [Afghan human rights activists](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/08/27/watch-afghan-women-defy-taliban-by-singing-in-public/) have warned it could mean women are effectively banned from holding conversations with one another.
>
> In his message, minister Khalid Hanafi said: “Even when an adult female prays and another female passes by, she must not pray loudly enough for them to hear.”
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> [An Afghan woman searches for recyclable materials at a garbage dump on the outskirts of Mazar-i-Sharif](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/world-news/2024/10/28/TELEMMGLPICT000399760576_17301429887710_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqpVlberWd9EgFPZtcLiMQf_4Xpit_DMGvdp2n7FDd82k.jpeg?imwidth=350)
>
> An Afghan woman searches for recyclable materials at a garbage dump on the outskirts of Mazar-i-Sharif Credit: ATIF ARYAN/AFP VIA GETTY IMAGES “How could they be allowed to sing if they aren’t even permitted to hear [each other’s] voices while praying, let alone for anything else.”
>
> He said these are “new rules and will be gradually implemented, and God will be helping us in each step we take”.
>
> As the Taliban has [banned living beings](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/10/14/taliban-bans-all-images-of-living-things/) from being shown on television, his message was delivered via voice recording instead of a television broadcast.
>
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> “How are women who are the sole providers for their families supposed to buy bread, seek medical care or simply exist if even their [voices are forbidden](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/music/artists/do-not-let-voices-silenced-desperate-situation-facing-afghan/)?” one activist said in response.
>
> “Whatever he says is a form of mental torture for us,” an Afghan woman in [Kabul](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/08/12/kabul-clothes-shops-cover-mannequin-faces-taliban/) told The Telegraph.
>
> “Living in Afghanistan is incredibly painful for us as women. [Afghanistan is forgotten](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/terror-and-security/the-world-cannot-forget-about-afghanistan/), and that’s why they are suppressing us – they are torturing us on a daily basis.”
>
> “They say we cannot hear other women’s voices, and I do not understand where these views come from,” she added.
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> [Taliban minister Khalid Hanafi said: "God will be helping us in each step we take"](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/world-news/2024/10/28/TELEMMGLPICT000399760337_17301430350100_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqpVlberWd9EgFPZtcLiMQf0Rf_Wk3V23H2268P_XkPxc.jpeg?imwidth=350)
>
> Taliban minister Khalid Hanafi said: “God will be helping us in each step we take” Credit: AHMAD SAHEL ARMAN/AFP VIA GETTY IMAGES Since taking power in Aug 2021, the Taliban has systematically restricted [women’s rights](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/womens-rights/) in Afghanistan.
>
> Women have already been ordered to [cover their faces](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/05/07/taliban-order-women-wear-full-veil-reintroduce-burqa-mandate/) “to avoid temptation and tempting others” and [refrain from speaking](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/09/02/taliban-hires-female-spies-to-catch-women-breaking-laws/) in the presence of unfamiliar men who are not husbands or close relatives.
>
> “If it is necessary for women to leave their homes, they must cover their faces and voices from men” and be accompanied by a “[male guardian](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/09/23/afghan-women-feel-forced-marry-just-leave-house-despite-taliban/)”, according to the rules approved by the Taliban’s supreme leader.
>
> Afghan women have also been ordered not to [speak loudly](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/08/22/taliban-bans-afghan-women-looking-strange-men-loud-talking/) inside their homes, to prevent their [voices from being heard](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/08/27/watch-afghan-women-defy-taliban-by-singing-in-public/) outside.
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> Women who defy the new rules will be arrested and sent to prison, the Taliban said.
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> In July 2024, a UN report said the ministry for promoting virtue and preventing vice was contributing to a climate of fear and intimidation among Afghans through its edicts and the methods used to enforce them.
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> [Armed Taliban security personnel ride motorcycles during a street patrol](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/world-news/2024/10/28/TELEMMGLPICT000396172589_17301430832730_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqRo0U4xU-30oDveS4pXV-Vv4Xpit_DMGvdp2n7FDd82k.jpeg?imwidth=350)
>
> Armed Taliban security personnel ride motorcycles during a street patrol Credit: AFP/GETTY IMAGES The Taliban’s supreme leader has also vowed to start [stoning women to death](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/03/25/taliban-leader-akhundzada-women-stoned-death-afghanistan/) in public.
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> “They [the Taliban] are waging an all-out war against us, and we have no one in the world to hear our voices,” a former civil servant told The Telegraph from Kabul.
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> “The world has abandoned us,” she added. “They left us to the Taliban, and whatever happens to us now is a result of [Western government policies](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/21/return-taliban-start-global-power-crisis-facing-west/).”
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> ## ‘Many women are taking their lives’
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> “I feel depressed. The world is advancing in technology and having fun with their lives, but here we cannot even hear each other’s voices,” she said.
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> “They want us not to exist at all, and there’s nothing we can do about it,” another woman in western Herat province said.
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> “They may succeed at some point, as many are taking their lives due to the pressure,” she added
>
> “They think ruling Afghanistan is only about [suppressing women](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/09/03/afghanistan-women-silenced-by-taliban/) – we didn’t commit a crime by being born as women,” she said.
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> The increased restrictions imposed by the Taliban’s supreme leader have caused discord within the Taliban’s own ranks.
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> A senior Taliban official told The Telegraph of frustration from moderates with the more hardline elements of the regime.
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> “Someone should stop the supreme leader. Many within the Taliban are angry and worried that, with everything the leadership is doing, we could lose Afghanistan as quickly as we took it,” he added.
>
> “They are worried that as soon as an alternative to the Taliban appears, the people will revolt, and the West will bomb us again,” the official explained.
- - - - - -
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We've found **1 sources** (so far) that are covering this story including:
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Of all the sources reporting on this story, **100% are right-leaning**, **0% are left-leaning**, and **0% are in the center**. Read the full **[coverage analysis](https://ground.news/article/taliban-bans-women-from-hearing-other-womens-voices?utm_source=redditReplyBot&utm_medium=redditReplyBot)** and compare how 1+ sources from across the political spectrum are covering this story.
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