I am very confused concerning the .45 acp vs 9mm debate.

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mjmjr1312@reddit

Yes there are good sources on this.

The gist of it is that 40/45/10mm will produce a wider wound track than a 9mm. But the only additional wounding that occurs is due to that marginally wider wound track. All wounding occurs within a couple cm of the bullet path.

Pistol rounds wound ONLY through crushing and tearing flesh along their immediate path. There is no wounding through “energy transfer” or “stopping power” or any of that. The temporary stretch cavity you see on YouTube gel tests is irrelevant as the velocity/energy of pistol rounds is inadequate to overcome the elasticity of flesh. The only differences between calibers is width as long as you are meeting penetration requirements. Which we have a standard for (12-18” in gel). This falls apart a little bit at the extreme as tine calibers that can be engineered to meet depth might not have the mass to pass through bone and do the same.

Where this gets messy on the internet is people having their favorite calibers. For example tell someone that the wounding characteristics of 40 and 10mm are nearly identical in a human and they get all worked up. Same for 357mag and 9mm. But in a human, these are absolutely true. The only thing added by the additional “power” here is more recoil and slower follow up shots.

Now even with the marginally wider width, 9mm is considered the superior caliber for defensive use. The reason is that 9mm is the minimum caliber to reliably meet the depth requirements with the minimum recoil. A shooter of any skill level will be faster and put more and more accurate shots on target in a given window with 9mm than larger calibers. A grand master will shoot 45 faster and better than I shoot 9mm, but he will also shoot faster and better with 9mm than he does 45.

The bonus is that it’s cheaper and easier on guns. Some guys will latch onto that as the only reason departments go to it, but that isn’t accurate.

Now you will get wife’s tales about the guy shot x number of times with a 9mm and some big assumptions that if it was 10mm/45AARP/etc he would have dropped in his tracks. But note that there is nothing substantial to show this. The only difference is if that marginal extra width hit a CNS the 9mm would have missed which is very unlikely.

All pistols suck at stopping people because they are limited to the above mentioned wounding mechanism. You either get a CNS hit or you are waiting for someone to bleed out. According to the FBI even a shot to the heart allows for 10-15 seconds where they are still in the fight. That is a LONG time. The best bet is more shots on target in the limited window you will have. Remember you will be on the clock as people generally don’t like getting shot and will try to stop you.

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Snider83@reddit

All important reasons that training rapid follow up shots including to the CNS is essential.

Dumb question though, so based on all that data, why is 10mm better for bears than 9mm? Less about energy potential and more about penetration I assume?

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ServoIIV@reddit

If you look at the 10mm bear defense loads most of them are very heavy hard cast lead bullets. Hard cast lead doesn't expand when it hits flesh, and heavy for caliber bullets have a higher sectional density, which is very important for penetration. Bears are much thicker than people so you need to go deeper. That being said there are many cases of people successfully defending against bears with smaller calibers. Shot placement is really the key to success.

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Arsjdaj_@reddit

all guns can kill. remember that.

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street_style_kyle@reddit

Exactly, I believe smaller calibers get bears down but if I can’t get that heart shot I want my 10mm to get through the skull if possible.

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Ikvtam@reddit

Ya don’t get many follow up shots on a charging bear. Gotta make the first one count. Hence the popularity of revolvers in 44mag and greater for bear

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theoriginaldandan@reddit

Bears are more muscular and their fur can be muddy, added penetration is more likely to be needed( but not always, bears have a thinner hide than most realize. Just because they are strong Ananias’s doesn’t make them bullet proof. An Elk is much tougher in that regard than even a large grizzly bear.)

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Agammamon@reddit

10mm penetrates far deeper.

15ish inches is sufficient for a human target, much more is needed to reach the vitals of a bear.

Also, since a bear is much bigger, the longer penetration depth, by basic math, means the PWC volume is increased significantly over 9mm in a way that's not possible in a human - go 20inches at the most in a human and you've gone out the other side so any extra penetration capability is wasted on a man.

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Hoplophilia@reddit

Grizzly skull is up to 1.5" thick bone mass and if it charges you'll need to get through that gate before you even say "hello." No matter what pistol you have, you'll wish it was a rifle.

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Hot-Win2571@reddit

There's an article about reported handgun bear self defence situations. Any caliber dissuades bears.

But, yes, to cause more damage to a bear it is probably best if you have deep-penetration bear rounds.

My EDC contains solid copper Xtreme Defender bullets. I suspect those will suffice for black bear, but I'm loaded for the more likely human encounters.

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mjmjr1312@reddit

Penetration is really the point there. What would be over penetration for a defensive load might be inadequate for large game.

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WestSide75@reddit

All true, and I’ll add that modern handguns that can hold 17-21 rounds of 9mm are very easy to find. Handguns chambered in .45 Auto and .40 S&W don’t have anywhere near that capacity. It’s better to have more rounds available than a slightly larger wound cavity.

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Gews@reddit

That's only really true for .45s. A .40 has a much closer capacity to a 9mm and both hold enough the capacity that it's typically not a major concern, eg:

M&P 9: 17+1 M&P 40: 15+1 M&P 45: 10+1

And despite the far lower capacity the .45 still has to have a larger grip than the other two.

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LiquidusSnake01@reddit

Glock 21:13+1, Extended 25+1 FNX 45: 15+1

You can make any argument using any data, as long as you're willing to omit facts.

A 45 acp round is 2 to 3 times the size of a 9mm round. A hollowpoint 9mm flowers to about just under a 45 ball round. A 45 acp hollowpoint flowers to 50 caliber.

185 grain 45 acp ball is just as good if not better than a 9mm hollowpoint defensive loads as far as performance goes. Not even factoring in defensive 45 +p loads.

True Marksmanship went the way of the Dodo birds when Wondernines hit the scene.

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Daarcuske@reddit

My .22 holds 50 I win? :)

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VeteranRedBeard@reddit

If it holds 50, you are relying on a drum. Those suck.

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Daarcuske@reddit

Naw Keltec quad stack mags, mags are fine but the gun can’ handle getting dirty at all to run well.

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CrackaBox@reddit

I know the post is old but i have a question. Why did the army commission the 45 acp if stopping power isn't a factor? Wasn't the 45 acp created because they felt 9mm was insufficient from their experiences in the Philippines? Didn't the british similarly adopt the 455 webley for the same reason?

Not saying you're wrong(I wouldn't know), but it would seem there is a contradiction.

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mjmjr1312@reddit

A limited understanding of terminal ballistics is likely the cause. There was a gross misunderstanding of how bullets interact with flesh at high vs low velocities and at that time it made sense. The difference in wounding potential between pistol calibers isn’t that great. But the shootability difference is significant, this wasn’t as noticeable when people were still being thought to hip fire pistols. But it’s apparent now.

But over the last 40+ years the study of these became much more scientific and we have learned a lot about how these injuries occur. The biggest change was the understanding that “energy” or “stopping power” simply isn’t a factor. The realization that the only wounding mechanism is crushing or tearing is the most important part.

Remember the US military is not only routinely behind the civilian sector in bullet technology, but usually well behind our allies as well. The US made a huge mistake in dismissing the 280 British in favor of the 308 and set back the adoption of intermediate cartridges by decades.

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CrackaBox@reddit

Thanks for the lesson, this is great.

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BasicallyNuclear@reddit

Do you have any good reads about rifle ballistics? I’m interested in reading more about the crushing and tearing effects seen in rifle cartridges.

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mjmjr1312@reddit

The Dr Roberts article I posted discusses rifle terminal performance a bit. But it is focused on LE and by extension defensive use. There is a big focus on 223 specifically and some discussion about 6.8 which was kind of the new kid on the block when he wrote that article as far as adoption. But there is some discussion on 308 as well.

There are a lot of other sources from Fackler and old “wound ballistics review” articles, etc; but they are sometimes hard to find. Once you get away from 556 and 308 in rifle cartridges most of your good data will have to come from hunting writing. That usually lacks the level of detail you get from medical writing.

Really that is the key for me when I read on this stuff. The medical writing is typically much better but often full of firearm tropes. They miss the practical application part of it because it doesn’t matter once someone is on their table. Robert’s is one of the few to look at it from both sides.

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JimMarch@reddit

This, and add one more factor: 9mm velocity (at least out of a 4" or longer barrel) is high enough that expansion reliability is excellent. From a 4" or longer tube the Federal HST 147 is a beast for huge expansion given it's starting point. I don't trust it to expand reliably in a micro 9 gun though.

But!

The big ammo houses have gotten better at tuning expansion based on predicted bullet speed. The 40 splits the difference between 9mm velocity and 45AARP starting diameter. The Federal HST and Punch in 40S&W 155 to 165gr loads are doing absolutely monstrous expansion levels dwarfing anything in 9mm.

https://youtu.be/3v29snRlPsk - note the comparison in final bullet size. 9mm 147 would be a tad fatter than the 124 but not like that giant of a 40.

https://youtu.be/Vu7-nwpc8As - another comparison, Critical Defense is only available in 115 as the biggest 9, 165 as the only 40. These don't go as fat as HST and they're lower recoiling but again, the 40 ends up fatter and hence touches more human flesh.

https://youtu.be/mr_W4P9CRos - here's the 155 and 165 40 HSTs. Both are opening up as fat as the 180.

https://youtu.be/wviKnWVcJ6w - two examples of 147gr 9mm and while both work great, they're not as fat as the 40S&W is getting in 165 or 180.

I'm carrying 40S&W 165gr from a 3.2" barrel. I have two other considerations going on. First, I'm stress-testing my homebrew gas pedal setup lol. Second, I'm likely going back to long haul trucking and therefore need to keep mag capacity to 10rds. I was carrying a Taurus G3c in 9mm with 12rd mags but the same gun in 40 comes with 10rd as standard regardless of state, so for size efficiency and max power for the available round counts I bought the same gun in 40 and recycled the custom sight, handmade gas pedal (pic rail mount) and custom holster straight over from the 9 to the 40 version of the same gun. No regrets even in states where I could carry 12rd mags including Alabama where I live now. I think I'm actually better off with 11 40s instead of 13 9s in terms of overall self defense capability.

'Cuz those 40s are freakin' nasty y'all.

You're absolutely correct that hydrostatic shock (damaging tissue not touched by the actual bullet) isn't a factor in handguns with the possible exception of some 5.7x28 loads doing 2,000fps. 2,000fps is where hydrostatic shock starts and really needs more to be reliable downrange. 5.7 from a carbine does it all day long with most loads.

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Kuzkuladaemon@reddit

A sane poster. Yay

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CutElectrical3574@reddit

So the question really boils down to personal preference when it comes to the "debate". Most people these days particularly the younger generation are in love with the light weight and low recoil of the 9mm and cheaper ammo, from their perspective the see the 9mm as superior for human defense and adequate for predator defense. On the other hand you have the .45acp people who like stopping power, particularly if their gun is loaded with .45 +P or Super loads. The happy medium between them is 10mm. But if you don't plan on using high powered loads like the +P or Super, 10mm is going to be your best penetrating. I personally wish that there was a dedicated factory made .460 Rowland in a hammer fired double-stack platform with a threaded barrel. The debate would end at that point for the penetration and stopping power except for those who want low recoil and cheap ammo. But I guarantee you that if a 9mm enthusiast has to face down a Grizz or a territorial moose they will at the "very least" wish they had more than a 9mm. I wouldn't personally recommend a 9mm for large predator defense unless you have no other choice. But that's just my opinion based on what I know. Ultimately is is up to each individual to make that call. But of course if you never tromp through the deep woods and only plan on defending from human's in the concrete jungle then I could see 9mm being preferred by those who want light weight, low recoil and cheap ammo.

In the end people are stubborn and talk themselves into why they use what they use and can find reasons why their choice is superior.

If you want to look up info check out Buffalo Bore Ammo Videos on youtube. There's some good info from a very experienced shooter.

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ServingTheMaster@reddit

FBI shooting data is the most relevant. 9mm, .45 ARP, 10mm short (aka .40 SW), and 10mm perform identically in terms of shooting outcomes. Yes there are different energy levels, but the difference is not significant enough to change outcomes.

The measurable change to shooting outcomes happens at the energies seen with centerfire rifles, such as the AR in .223/5.56.

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Thaknobodi87@reddit

I think PCC's, like16 inch barrel ones, are an in- between. They allow pistol calibers to get some pretty high velocities. Even 38 special gets up to lower 357 levels just from a long barrel. Translates to flawless expansion, plus extra penetration.

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HAKRIT@reddit

Neither, carry a .45-70 derringer like a real man

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Chrisscott25@reddit

You musta missed the last real man meeting. We carry 50 bmg lifecards now ;)

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No_Committee819@reddit

Just throw the fukng gun at him and quit fukng around!

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TheHancock@reddit

.50BMG is a deathcard. Lol

(Now to get Trailblazer to expand…)

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Chrisscott25@reddit

Love the name! Hilarious

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HAKRIT@reddit

Damn I think I called in sick that day…

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TheHancock@reddit

The Cyclops. Lowkey want one for the memes

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ImageWagons@reddit

Real men carry M142 Himars in their pocket.

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bubbathedesigner@reddit

Codpeice

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Ikvtam@reddit

Or an M79 on their shoulder

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TheHeroChronic@reddit

The noisy cricket

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Jordan_1424@reddit

The broken wrist.

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alwaus@reddit

Carry a 12ga OU derringer on a belt buckle holster.

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Big_Cranberry_6665@reddit

.45 on deck if you ever in a gun fight you're only going to be 3 to 7 ft away from one another you more than likely won't fire more than a few rounds eight rounds in my 45's going to punch a big hole seven feet away it not going to take but one and they're done... Big big hole way bigger than the 9 mm now a millimeter is nice but it don't punch a big hole like a 45...

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jehesede_jaqu33s@reddit

Late to the party. Bro science says 9mm give you more rounds, flatter trajectory and lower recoil/ muzzle flip… in general. I love shooting 40 but I carry 9mm because it’s just quicker and I’ve got more on hand. If you’re a badass with a 1911 in 45 go for it; if you’re a John Wick with a revolver, go for it. Ammo coat is another thing too. 9mm is cheaper than most or all other viable ammunition options for carry. Overall I’d recommend anyone reading this to just start off with 9mm then go from there.

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Particular_Ease_5827@reddit

I'm apparently part of a weird minority who feels like .45acp has less 'felt' recoil, meaning I can keep barrel on target for follow-up more easily.

Now, it does have more powerful recoil, but it's directed back toward my body, where I can absorb the force more easily and keep the barrel closer to target. 9mm on the other hand, for me at least, has much less force back toward me, and more force in muzzle flip, which causes the barrel to rise and cause more effort to reacquire the target (for me).

That said, I have found one 9mm that works better for me, the PX4 Storm does seem to have much less muzzle flip than other 9mms I've tried, probably due to the rotating barrel mechanism (and a touch from the recoil reducing spring I've installed)

But that's all just me.

End of the day, get out there and shoot a bunch of different weapons. You'll know what feels right to you, and that's more important in an adrenaline-fueled situation than worrying more about which wound channel is bigger...

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VegasLex@reddit

Nazi round is superior ✋😐

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VeteranRedBeard@reddit

Different studies show Different results. Go for more rounds over bullet caliber. That way, while the other calibers are measuring mm and slight variations of 40, 45, and 357mag, you put double the amount of rounds in with your 9mm.

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DevilJin42069@reddit (OP)

Makes sense

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WeirdIsland6523@reddit

Here’s the beautiful part, people will do what they want and there is no reason to change their mind. IMO 9mm +p HST is leagues better than 45. Now I’m not going to go tell someone they’re an idiot for carrying 45. Unsolicited advice is stupid.

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Dull_Many7974@reddit

You do know the make 45auto hat right?

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TargetOfPerpetuity@reddit

You've already gotten a healthy double handful of decent answers. I'll add something else I rarely see brought into this debate.

So shot placement and ammunition choice is critical. You've heard that. Far more important than anything else.

You've heard that everything about choosing a firearm is a compromise: size, capacity, concealability, controllability, recoil, power.... everything's a tradeoff. All good there.

One of the reasons I still make sure I keep a handful of .45s in the stable -- old school and modern pistols as well as carbines -- is related to ammunition.

We know that with modern optimized 9mm hollowpoints, you're not giving up much to a .45 -- and the additional capacity onboard and controllability more than make up for it. I don't see much of an argument there.

But looking into an uncertain future, whether it's because of laws being passed or the law of supply and demand -- what if we don't always have access to modern hollowpoint ammunition? Further, what if we end up having to reload our own ammunition and depend on it?

If, for whatever reason, we have to go back to relying on FMJ for serious use, as we did in days past to include Workd Wars -- suddenly the differences between the two cartridges become stark.

Is it a niche concern? Absolutely. Would I pick my one carry/defensive gun right now based on that possibility? Not a chance.

But I do know that there's some peace of mind in knowing that the cheapest .45 FMJ can still get the job done when I wouldn't want to trust FMJ out of any of my 9mm handguns unless I really had no other choice.

I'm a 9mm guy all day every day. It's what I've carried in eight different platforms for my entire career, starting in 2003.

If I have to pick one defensive handgun it's going to be a 9mm, no hesitation.

But is there still an argument for keeping a .45 around -- even if it's just a cheap carbine -- to hedge bets against an uncertain future? I think so.

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englisi_baladid@reddit

"If, for whatever reason, we have to go back to relying on FMJ for serious use, as we did in days past to include Workd Wars -- suddenly the differences between the two cartridges become stark"

Yeah that's completely bullshit.

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TargetOfPerpetuity@reddit

You ever compared FMJ 9mm vs FMJ 45ACP in meat/bone/tissue before? There's a pretty noticeable difference. Way more shoot-throughs with 9mm ball ammo.

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Mr_Drayton@reddit

The Germans and Soviets had no issues killing each other in the millions with 9mm and 7.62 Tokarev respectively.

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TargetOfPerpetuity@reddit

No argument there.

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dhuffs@reddit

The holes/cavities they leave on initial contact and after are basically the same size therefore the “stopping power” is essentially moot

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WeWroteGOT@reddit

The consensus I'm getting is "9 hits faster, 45 hits harder"

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Big_Bill23@reddit

Shot placement is more important than caliber size in this case.

9mm is less expensive, so training/practice is less expensive.

Your choice.

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Aggie74-DP@reddit

And 10 rounds of 45 ACP weighs the same as 20 rounds of 9mm. (230 gr vs 115 gr)

I dont care what gun you choose to carry, IF YOU CHOOSE A POLYMER SUBCOMPACT gun, its going to feel snappier than a full size gun. JUST PLAIN PHYSICS! Smaller guns have less surface area to get a grip on, and the weight of that extra Ammo in your hand is a Stabilizing weight against the guns muzzle rise. IMHO you need to find the right balance.

Also Historical Data tells us the VAST Majority of Defensive situations envolve 2 shots. So the TIME to be Back on Target for that Second shot is Critical. Years ago, LE's & Military started moving from the 1911 - 45ACP's to various 9mm for that reason. Easier to carry, (and THEY DO carry spare FULL size Mags.) 2nd shots can be executed quicker.

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HailOfHarpoons@reddit

And 10 rounds of 45 ACP weighs the same as 20 rounds of 9mm. (230 gr vs 115 gr)

--

Also Historical Data tells us the VAST Majority of Defensive situations envolve 2 shots.

Exactly. Arguing about capacity is nonsensical. If whatever situation you are in is not resolved with ~10 rounds, you should probably send the next one through your temples.

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Aggie74-DP@reddit

Most probably. AND if I was guessing the folks arguing the most have never been in a gunfight to speak from personal experience. But LE's carry extra mags, 45, 40 or 9's.. And that gets heavy.. My as much as anything was to infer that when I carried a 45, I also carried a spare mag. And at the end of the day It seemed like day. All I did all day was pull my pants up.

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Hoplophilia@reddit

AKSHULLY... [Got me curious] 10 rounds of 230gr Magtech is just slightly heavier than 17 rounds of 115gr S&B, at least on my scale.

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Aggie74-DP@reddit

Ok I fudged because Yea the 9mm cases probably are 25% or so lighter than 45's. But you get my drift. You can carry more rounds in a 9 than a 45. So some fudge and don't carry backup mags.

Now IMHO since the 45 travels at 8-900 fps, to me its kind of a soft shooter. With full mags in my 45's & 9's and a good grip, I dont notice really any difference between the 2. Then again the guns may rise a little, but I have no muzzle flip with either.

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Wake-n-jake@reddit

You're right, but stop yelling.

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WrongKielbasa@reddit

Spoken like someone who’s never been hit with a 105mm howitzer

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road_rascal@reddit

To shreds you say?

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rpk462@reddit

How is his wife holding up?

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2Drogdar2Furious@reddit

To shreds you say...

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BasicallyNuclear@reddit

I was also very curious about this. What I’ve learned is that handgun calibers do not move fast enough to cause the damage you’d see in rifle cartridges as hydrostatic shock isn’t as extreme in handgun cartridges. With a handgun you’re either stopping a threat by hitting something very important like the spine or poking enough holes they pass out.

The wounds generated from 9mm are very similar. Before modern ballistics and loadings 45 definitely had an upper hand but in 2024 they perform pretty equal to each other. 9mm is less expensive, has a capacity advantage, and the firearm itself is usually lighter than its 45 counterpart.

At the end of the day it comes down to what you can shoot accurately. Three good hits with a 45 is better than three missing 9mm shots and the reverse is also true.

If you don’t own one yet I suggest you shoot both and see what you’re better with. I’ve personally noticed 9mm recoil is snappier and 45 is more of a push upwards

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PacoBedejo@reddit

You just made the argument for fast 10mm.

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BasicallyNuclear@reddit

To an extent I did. At the end of the day hydrostatic shock is very rare based on my understanding as flesh, muscle, and fat are all very elastic. The problem in fast 10mm is the risk of over-penetration unless you have a reliable self defense cartridge.

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PacoBedejo@reddit

It's always a tradeoff between over-penetrating naked 80lb meth heads and under-penetrating 450lb whales in layered Canadian tuxedoes. Fast and light seemed to do best for both in tests I've seen.

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hafetysazard@reddit

You're right. It is a thing. A 125 grain .357 hollowpoint did better than any other cartridge for being a one-hit wonder. The velocity meant the really tough bonded hollowpoints would penetrate and expand reliably. A 10mm with a lighter bullet going a crackin' speed should produce the same effects.

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PacoBedejo@reddit

It's always a tradeoff between over-penetrating naked 80lb meth heads and under-penetrating 450lb whales wearing layered Canadian tuxedoes. Fast and light seemed to do best for both in tests I've seen.

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hafetysazard@reddit

At one point, a .357 Magnum with a 125 grain hollowpoint was the most successful one-stop-shot cartridge for law enforcement.

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TokoloshiMedicine@reddit

Old geezer voice ~Still is Sonny boy~

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TokoloshiMedicine@reddit

It's all bubkis. Get whichever you can reliably get on target, and which has availability of ammo in your area. And practice practice practice. I would not want to face a seasoned and practiced adversary who's using a .380ACP, if I wasn't 100% confident using my pistol. As echoed in other comments here, there is no 'best' handgun round, calibre or even pistol. It's all about situational awareness, speed of draw, shot placement and focus. No good, for e.g. having a .500 AE but you are flinching away from the aggressor and 30 seconds late on the draw. So many people think they are Rambo and won't flinch, until it's too late. Stress does things to you that you cannot fathom. Join a club. Do a course.

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Gardener_Of_Eden@reddit

45 acp make bigger holes.

9mm makes holes big enough to be very lethal so it doesn't need to be bigger.

The end.

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hafetysazard@reddit

Clint Smith said it better than anyone. Handguns put holes in people, rifles put holes through people, and at the right range, with the right load, a shotgun will remove a shotgun will physically remove a chunk of shit from your opponent and throw that shit on the floor.

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Sure_Pear_9258@reddit

Where does my 50AE on my Deagle fit in this chart?

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Gardener_Of_Eden@reddit

It's for shooting at anomalies in the Matrix

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mreed911@reddit

There is no debate. Stopping power is a myth Make good hits, carry enough ammo to do so as long as you need to to end the threat.

Buy a gun that fits your hand and is of the right weight, balance and setup to achieve the above, in the caliber you prefer.

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hafetysazard@reddit

It isn't a myth, it just doesn't matter as much as shot placement. A well placed .22 will do the job.

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ARMilesPro@reddit

It depends on how you come at the argument. If you come with mathematical ballistics then 45 ACP is going to look superior.

If you come at it from practicality of self defense the 9mm wins, especially when you add modern ammunition designed for defense, the 9mm is the better choice.

Unless you have a reason to use 45 ACP or have legacy firearms, I can't see a reason to use 45 for modern concealed carry. A new shooter should choose 9mm for wide availability and lower cost. To be fair, your carry ammo will need to be the higher cost JHP variety. The 45 crowd win the argument here because any 45 defense ammo will do. 😏

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hafetysazard@reddit

Modern 9mm didn't close the gap for energy, it just started taking advantage of hollowpoints designed to be more reliable at 9mm velocities. It still has shortcomings on tougher targets. A huge fat guy can probably eat up a bunch of 9mm if your not bang on with shot placement. A .357 would likely do a better job of laying him down, but you know...revolvers.

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ManyFacedGodxxx@reddit

Is this STILL a debate?! I thought this nonsense had ended decades ago!

How much money ya got to spend on ammo? 45 is more expensive than 9mm, and training is more important than a blinged out super gun. 45 is the Lords Caliber, it’s my favorite and yet I have only one 45, I’m not even sure how many 9mm pistols I own and shoot routinely.

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hafetysazard@reddit

People thought it did when better bullets started coming out for 9mm, but the inherent differences in energy really haven't change. Something like 10mm improved on the deficiencies both had, but some of the downsides were amplified as well.

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InterestingSignal536@reddit

It's not really helped by people who keep peddling old myths, including the guys who say the .45 and 9mm are equivalent when they really aren't. I mean, how can you say that the 9mm is objectively superior in metrics like capacity, shootability, cost, etc., but then turn around and say, "btw they're both good, use whichever you like"?

I'd rather people be honest and say that the .45's days have been over for a long time and that the 9mm is king, but that's not gonna stop me from taking a 1911 down on the range because it's cool as hell.

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Averagecrabenjoyer69@reddit

I shoot more .45 than I do 9mm 🤷

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ManyFacedGodxxx@reddit

Hey, you do you! 45’s rock!

Maybe I should get that Smith Performance Center 45 after all, hummm…

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AntelopeExisting4538@reddit

New generation same questions.

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ManyFacedGodxxx@reddit

Excellent point…

454 Casul is the carry round for you, honest!

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Reddit-JustSkimmedIt@reddit

“Stopping power” doesn’t really exist in handgun rounds unless you’re talking about 460 Mag or 500mag. Carry what you feel comfortable shooting. Practice often.

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hafetysazard@reddit

Sure it does, but you're making compromises with recoil, magazine capacity, etc., but especially recoil. At one point a Model 19 loaded with .357 Mag. 125 grain hollowpoints was at the top of the leaderboard for a one-stop-shot on bad guys.

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NoSuddenMoves@reddit

It comes down to shot placement > stopping power.

The lower recoil, higher capacity and easier follow up shots make 9mm preferable in most handgun situations.

I would add that 9mm isn't the answer for every situation and the needs of shooters vary. You need the right tool for the right job.

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hafetysazard@reddit

If you have a wicked amount of devestation, you can a be a little more liberal with your shot placement.

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Avvokin@reddit

Two world wars

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Adept-Coconut-8669@reddit

Fudd noise intensifies

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hafetysazard@reddit

For the uninitiated, it sounds like a CPAP losing the battle with sleep apnea, but awake.

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The_OG_TrashPanda@reddit

Yup

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TheHancock@reddit

Artillery is the winner!

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Adventurous_Emu_9274@reddit

45 for the house, 9mm for carry. 9mm guns usually allow more ammo in a smaller package. 45 is slower and less like to over penetrate walls, but will definitely stop a threat on impact.

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Hoyle33@reddit

It doesn’t really matter as long as you train with the one you plan to carry/shoot

A 22 in your pocket is better then the 45 at home

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Specialist-Impact345@reddit

Amen to that… bought my 75y old Mom the TX22 for home defense… its like a laser beam at 15 yards for her. Shot placement and volume!

She tried all sorts of other guns and calibers (yes including 380EZ) and the TX22 was what she shot the best 9/10 ring @ 15 - every shot.

And you always get the ones…. Blah blah blah 22LR blah blah blah. I need my Mom to train, wanna train, and can consistently hot what shes aiming at… that criteria has been fulfilled by the TX22.

She aint fighting a war and there wont be any bears…

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MasterCPrime@reddit

This sounds like what the bears would say before they strike!

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bubbathedesigner@reddit

Bears have been killed by .22 before.

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Then_North_6347@reddit

The simple answer? There's no much point in paying for 45acp over 9mm, especially since you can get 9mm jhp for cheaper than 45acp fmj. While you can definitely get hot 9mm fmj, like Winchester service grade 9mm fmj at nearly 450 foot pounds of force, you want 9mm jhp that transfers the energy into the target.

Especially considering capacity and recoil. Compare the HK45 to the P30. The HK45 has only about 60% the capacity of the P30.

[-]

marksman1023@reddit

Dude you might as well try to understand Camaro vs. Mustang.

I like my Mustang. I prefer it to Camaros. Why? Because I do. I could list reasons but it basically boils down to because I like it. I know a Camaro guy that feels the exact same way but in reverse. We park our cars next to each other so they can trade barbs in the parking lot while we eat burgers or whatever.

I like 9mms, have been shooting them for years, and prefer 9mm to other calibers for self defense.

They same year the FBI swapped and proved me "right" I started regularly practicing with my "outdated/obsolescent" 357 Magnum revolver. I perpetually lust for a Coonan.

Since then I've added an "obsolete/obsolescent" SW 645 and the "no longer relevant because caliber" HK45 to my range rotation.

Variety is the spice of life. Just train with what you carry more than you shoot anything else and do you, boo. The world is your burrito.

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ShaneReyno@reddit

Whether you believe modern 9mm is as good as .45ACP, it’s close enough that no one would give up the capacity of 9mm unless this is a jurisdiction with magazine cap limitations.

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veive@reddit

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

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englisi_baladid@reddit

This is hands down was on the most misleading charts out there.

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veive@reddit

How so?

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englisi_baladid@reddit

It's just bad data. Like let's take 9mm for example. How are you counting one stop shots. So if you got a good shooter who puts 3 rounds into someone's chest. All 3 sever the spinal cord cause the guy can shoot. So that negatively counts against the 1 stop data stat?

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veive@reddit

This was discussed and addressed in the article...

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FapDonkey@reddit

Arguing over 9 mm versus 45 has basically become the modern-day equivalent of Chevy versus Ford. The reality is that you ever have need to use any handgun in either of those calipers, there are so many factors that go into determining what the result of that encounter will be. Whether you are carrying a 9 or a 45 has effectively no real difference. Find a gun that fits your hand well, that you like, that you can shoot well and is reliable, and carry that. Whether it's at 9:00 or whether it's in will make effectively no difference.

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InterestingSignal536@reddit

I dunno, being able to objectively carry more rounds, shoot flatter, control better, etc makes it more like horse-drawn carriage versus Ford.

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bubbathedesigner@reddit

Have you tried shooting a Ford off a 3.5" barrel?

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Specialist-Impact345@reddit

Hows is this a equivalent when Chevy is WAY better than Ford?

👍🏻😉🖕🏻

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NOIRQUANTUM@reddit

Can't believe there is a debate over this. Pick whichever one you like. Find a gun you're comfortable with and use it responsibly.

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Elegant_Amphibian@reddit

Shot placement and the circumstances of a deadly encounter matter more, just as everyone else has said. But you also have to think, in an encounter like that how well are your shots actually going to be placed? Training will make a key difference here but I would say I want a gun that holds more ammo just in case. Typically this would be a gun in 9mm. Unfortunately, many of us (myself included), live in places where we are cut off at the knees and can’t only have 10 round magazines. If I’m limited to 10 rounds whether it’s 9mm or .45, I’ll take the .45.

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mjmjr1312@reddit

What if you rephrase the question and made it more practical to defensive use.

Let’s ask if you had a limited time window to draw and stop a threat; something realistic, say 3-5 seconds. Would you be better off with 10rds of 45 or 9mm? I would argue that in a given window the fact that I can put more accurate rounds quickly on target with 9mm makes it a winner even with the limited capacity.

If the question is that you get 10 rounds to shoot someone to stop them then yea a bigger caliber wins. But that isn’t a realistic scenario. While accuracy is always king, those shots have to come fast enough to matter. 9mm helps with that.

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Trainmaster111@reddit

As far as standard factory ammo is concerned. 45 has more stopping power then a 9mm. Specifically 45 is standard 230 grains and 9mm is 115 grain. So a bigger bullet will deliver more punch.

45acp as a consequence will have lower velocity, and lower capacity

9mm has higher velocity and capacity.

A standard 45acp handgun will hold 7-8 rounds in a magazine.

A standard 9mm will hold 15-17 rounds.

Long story short 45 acp will be a stronger candidate for stopping an attacker quickly, but you will have higher recoil and less capacity.

9mm isn't as power but due to higher capacity and lighter recoil is plenty sufficient for most purposes.

Plus 9mm is a universal standard round so it is plentiful and inexpensive by comparison

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Kellashnikov@reddit

The only unbiased data you're going to get is if you conduct your own experiments, or if youre able to get unmolested data(which would be tough)

There's so many conflicting studies because each study was likely done with the intent of "getting new stuff" If an agency wanted to switch weapons, they would find the data needed to prove their point and get their way

These "loaded" studies and experiments aren't exclusive to just the firearms industry either. 😂

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vuther_316@reddit

I think this is going to be the most comprehensive data you'll find. It's the report from tests the FBI conducted on 2017. https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/b2161a32-695e-4a4e-baa2-209a9a981c67/downloads/1cm0blukf_477512.pdf

What I took from this report is 1. Ammo choice is most important. The best 9mm ammo has a larger permanent wound channel than the 2nd best .45 ammo (I'm counting all the underwood ammos as one type since they are similar)

9mm allows you to have alot more ammo, and has less recoil, and is certainly enough to stop a threat

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greatthebob38@reddit

GOD'S CALIBER

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Agammamon@reddit

The FBI.

They're the ones that did the research.

There is no such thing as 'stopping power'.
Placement, depth, Permanent Wound Cavity volume.
Most of your shots are going to miss.
Looking at the stats of shootouts, the number of rounds needed to incapacitate a target is the same whether its 9mm, .40SW, 4 ACP, or 10mm.
9mm has lest felt recoil (for faster and more accurate followup shots), and higher capacity.

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Netan_MalDoran@reddit

Somewhere on the internet, I remember seeing a set of police data from the 80's where it was comparing different calibers and the ability to stop a threat in 1 shot. 45 was somewhere around 16%, and 9mm was around 18%.

The TLDR of that specific set of data was that they were similar enough where you should probably go with the greater capacity, although if there is another study with different data, that would be interesting to compare.

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noljw@reddit

Don't listen to people's opinions, listen to science and statistics. Studies of real shootings don't support the idea that larger handgun calibers stop a perp significantly faster. This even includes rounds such as 44 mag. You don't start to see a serious increase in "stopping power" unless you have a rifle caliber. 45 is bigger sure, but only by .096"

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drmitchgibson@reddit

Stopping power doesn’t exist in handguns. Capacity wins gun fights.

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Sure_Pear_9258@reddit

Accuracy and speed win gun fights. Studies show whoever gets the first on target hit is more likely to win the gun fight. But you're right in that stopping power doesn't exist for pistol calibers. But you're also right in that Capacity helps win gun fights because in a nationwide study its shown that officer accuracy drops to 17% when its a 1 on 1 shootout between officer and suspect. So statistically if carrying an 8+1 45ACP thats 1-2 rounds on target before reload, but if carrying an 18+1 standard 9mm mag thats 6-7 rounds on target before reload.

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Hoplophilia@reddit

It's worth bearing in mind the difference in training and proficiency between the average cop in that stat and oneself.

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WindstormMD@reddit

The stopping power debate has become moot with modern bullet design. .45 is still worth keeping around if you enjoy shooting suppressed because you can get more energy while remaining sub-sonic

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Big_Ed214@reddit

Hence .40s&w

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calentureca@reddit

The .45 is a cooler gun. It is bigger, it has history.
All of that is irrelevant if you can't easily carry it, conceal it and put 2 rounds in the same spot rapidly.

Both offer a variety of rounds which math people can figure out how to get the most out of each platform. Which is again irrelevant unless you can be accurate enough for 2 shots rapidly at the same spot.

Both can be suppressed by using the correct (potentially expensive) ammunition.

In the end, it comes down to what the individual is most comfortable with shooting and carrying.

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Sure_Pear_9258@reddit

“Pistols put holes in people. Rifles put holes through people. Shotguns, the right load at the right range will physically remove a chunk of shit from your opponent and throw throw that shit on the floor, and you will have to get someone to come clean that shit up with a shovel.”

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Almost-Jaded@reddit

9mm is cheaper and you can carry more rounds. As bullet technology and design has improved, it's become a very effective round.

.45 WAS more powerful back in the day; now they're pretty even. It's a larger, slower bullet. It creates a bigger hole and is less prone to over penetration, which matters in some situations.

Personal preference at this point.

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BlueOceanBoii@reddit

For me these are the pros and cons for both

9mm

Pros •Less recoil •Cheaper than 45 •Higher capacity •More common •Lighter than 45 •More aftermarket compared to 9mm

Cons •Sucks suppressed even with subsonic rounds •States with restricted capacity limit restrict a main benefit of the caliber •Not as much (but still effective) stopping power compared to 45

45 ACP

Pros •Amazing suppressed •Perfect for carry in mag restricted states •More stopping power than 9mm •Less snappy than 9mm (arguably)

Cons •More expensive than 9mm •Less capacity •Heavier than 9mm •Less options for guns and ammo in 45 •Not as much aftermarket compared to 9mm

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Pte_Madcap@reddit

I think the real question we should be asking is if .223 is the same as 5.56?

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AntelopeExisting4538@reddit

I just watched a reloading video talking about this and in some instances there is only one grain of powder difference.

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Sure_Pear_9258@reddit

the chamber on the gun itself is also slightly different but thats a firearm difference not a cartridge difference.

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Blinky_OR@reddit

Avoid repeatedly shooting 5.56 in a gun chambered specifically chambered for .223 rem because it might possibly could result in damage to the firearm. If it's a wylde chamber, knock yourself out.

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Averagecrabenjoyer69@reddit

.45 ACP undoubtedly leaves a larger permanent wound channel and is more inherent in energy dumping. It's an advantage it'll always have over 9mm. It doesn't make it superior to 9mm really though, just like 9mm is in no way superior to .45 ACP. With modern bullet technology theure pretty on par with each other in actual usage. I myself prefer .45 ACP because I like bigger holes and heavier bullets, that however would in no way male ne uncomfortable with 9mm. In reality it's about shot placement and proper bullet selection(.45 ACP is more forgiving if you ever "had" to use FMJs a 230 grain slug is a beast).

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Numerous_Tackle_9972@reddit

As a poster above linked, Dr Roberts has a ton of interesting information regarding handgun stopping power. Definitely worth a read.

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kalashnikovkitty9420@reddit

A coroner cant telk the differance between a 45acp and 9mm with modern hollowpoints.

9mm is 1/2 the price, and capacity is 30% more the 45acp on average.

Go with 9mm

45acp is superior for shooting supressed though.

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horkusengineer@reddit

Well let’s look at the math. You can use this calculator to do simple ballistics calculation

https://www.larrywillis.com/bullet-energy.html

The original 9mm Luger load was a 124 grain projectile traveling at 1050 fps. Which is about 303 foot pounds of energy at muzzle.

The original 45 acp load was a 200 grain projectile traveling at 900 FPS. Which is about 360 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.

That’s about an 18% increase in energy at muzzle, as well as the larger projectile retaining more mass as it travels through the air.

So in the 1920s to 1950s, a 45 bullet was going to have more energy, which is where the stopping power comes from.

Let’s fast forward to today, I’ll compare underwood ammo.

https://underwoodammo.com/9mm-luger-p-90gr-xtreme-defender-solid-monolithic-self-defense-ammo-816-1/

https://underwoodammo.com/45-acp-p-135gr.-xtreme-defender-solid-monolithic-hunting-self-defense-ammo/

The 9mm is a 90gr projectile moving at 1475 FPS generating 435 foot pounds of energy.

The 45 is a 135 grain projectile traveling at 1335 fps producing 534 foot pounds of energy.

While the 45 still produces about 22% more energy than the 9mm, the 9mm is still producing 43% more energy than it’s original load, and 20% more tuan the original 45 load.

Even though new 45s can still produce more energy, it doesn’t matter because 9mm now produces enough energy to provide deep penetration and create enough damage to blood baring organs to stop the threat.

Also if you compare a Glock 21 to a Glock 17/47, the 9mm pistol can carry 17+1 rounds as opposed to 13+1 proving you 4 more rounds per magazine. And you can get the 9mm into a really small package like the sig p365 xmacro, allowing you to keep the 17+1 rounds in a very easy to conceal pistol.

This is why people now say, the difference doesn’t matter. Because even though there is a difference it’s not significant enough to prevent 9mm from preforming well enough for defense.

I hope this answers OP’s question.

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horkusengineer@reddit

On top of that, if you look at the popular pistols back in that time, like the walther p38 and the colt 1911, you’d notice they have almost the same capacity, p38 with 8 rounds and 1911 with 7. So at that point why wouldn’t you want superior ballistics at the cost of a single round?

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CplWilli91@reddit

The .45acp is an 11mm the 9mm is a .358 cal the difference is minimal, I carry a 9mm and will have a .45 HD pcc, cause of the capabilities of both, .45 is easily suppressed, 9mm is lighter and my wife can use both as well... so the question isn't which one, it's, what's the purpose of it. Stopping power means little,(unless there's bears, then get a .357m/44m) focus on shot placement with whatever you have and like, and you'll be fine

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toxic_adventure@reddit

The only reason 99% of people say 9mm is because it's cheap and readily available. But mainly because it's cheaper than 45 acp

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cshort45@reddit

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2024/09/two-hunters-who-shot-530-pound-grizzly-24-times-share-their-stunning-story-of-survival/

I don't know how many times I have heard that a 10mm will 1 shot a brown bear and a 45 will stop someone in their tracks.

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Blinky_OR@reddit

Watch this video from Lucky Gunner and Federal Ammo. Basically, all duty caliber handgun rounds suck against human targets. Carry what you want.

https://youtu.be/T6kUvi72s0Y?si=flioaEcd_sfXiCJN

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Free_Road697@reddit

It all comes down to personal preference. I would rather have more rounds so 9 is the way to go there. Modern ballistics has come a long way.

It's all about shot placement. A .22lr can be just a effective as a 45 acp if you hit the right spots.

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AM-64@reddit

The benefit with a 9mm is faster followup shots and generally more capacity in the same size or smaller gun.

The additional hole size for .45ACP is over exaggerated and at the end of the day both rounds are handgun rounds and handguns are astronomically worse than a rifle or shotgun.

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Kilroy3846@reddit

454 casull for vampires

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ImageWagons@reddit

.45 acp(11.43mm) bigger hole low ammo count 9mm (35cal) smaller hole more ammo

Frame design for 45 acp will always favor a larger size. 9mm frame size is everything from small to large.

Just remember, shot placement is the most important. 50 AE to the gut will kill slow, 22LR to the heart will stop anyone in their tracks.

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Redrum_71@reddit

If you happen to live in a state with a mag cap limit, 45 is more logical since you can't utilize the full capacity of most 9mm pistols.

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Banner_Quack_23@reddit

They both make holes. They are equal.

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Xterradiver@reddit

The best caliber is the one you can consistently put on target. Stopping power is irrelevant if you miss.

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Sorry_Guava_2784@reddit

Ford vs Chevy is what is comes down to in all honesty. Both are very good. What matters is what you like and what your comfortable with

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Gardener_Of_Eden@reddit

For the record.... 9mm is Ford (because it's better)

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fordag@reddit

Read this carefully.

An Alternate Look at Stopping Power by Greg Ellifritz

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spare_parts_bot@reddit

Only highly regarded people debate that. Both are good. Shoot whatever caliber and type of gun suits you best. Nothing you shoot with either of those calibers will care what size the bullet is.

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NoWish5604@reddit

Highly regarded or low regarded people?

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Buckfutter8D@reddit

As in pants on head regarded.

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PizzaTrailMix@reddit

Highly regarded as in artistic

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3ventH0ri2eN@reddit

In most self-defense situations, the encounter is over within a few seconds. A 9mm handgun is often easier to handle, which can improve your speed and accuracy compared to a .45 ACP. Make sure to use high-quality jacketed hollow points (JHP).

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JustShootingSince@reddit

Please don’t cry

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10gaugetantrum@reddit

Both cartridges are great for self defense. Different people have different preferences. People that want to debate and get offended are the ones with an inferiority complex. Who also must justify to the rest of the world that they made the "right" decision and if you don't agree your "wrong."

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Terminal_Lancelot@reddit

Well, when you have extremes, typically the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

You have the man bun/tacticool 9mm bros, who think it's all about the archer, not the arrow, and that nothing but shot placement matters (unless the arrow isn't sharp enough, such as 380 or 32, but that's a topic for another day)

Then you have the boomer fudds who think that 45 is a one shot stopper guaranteed, given by God himself through JMB.

The truth, really, lies in the middle. Is it more effective than 9mm? From every real world test I've conducted, and from living things I have seen shot, YES. Having a bullet with roughly 50% more momentum and a base ~62% more frontal area means it'll physically hit harder, and will indeed leave larger holes. This disparity only broadens with hollow points, leading 45 ACP to have, in some cases, as much as 80% greater expanded frontal area than expanded 9mm hollow points. So yes, 45 ACP is ballistically superior to 9mm.

However, there are trade offs.

Because 9mm is smaller, and lower momentum, it will have less recoil, and carry more rounds, leading to more accurate and quicker follow up shots, which is what most people prefer. Now, you can train to mitigate the difference between the two cartridges in terms of accuracy and follow up shots, but no amount of training will but more bullets in your magazine. Going back to the previous point, though, it should be noted that 10 rounds of 45 ACP will have similar amounts of destructive potential on organic targets to 15 rounds of 9mm.

For me, of the two, I'm a rare breed in that I'd choose the 45 for it's extra layer of ballistic capability and virtue of just being big as hell and thus having more case capacity to work with. Knowing too that most civilian gunfights are over in 3 rounds or less, I'd really rather be putting my best foot forward, so to speak.

If I were to go with a 9mm, it wouldn't be 9x19, it'd be 380, or 9mm short, because it's even better at quicker, more accurate follow up shots than 9x19, again, due to lower recoil. And with modern ammo and careful selection, 380 is just fine.

Plus, good luck finding a 9mm handgun that's the same size, weight, capacity, and has as soft of a recoil impulse as the Bodyguard 2.0. 380 simply has it in the concealment gang for me, when it comes to autoloader cartridges.

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Dadfish55@reddit

45s don’t leave scars.

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boneheded@reddit

There’s nothing to debate. Both of them do the job. Only caliber snobs with nothing better to do argue about this. Use what you want.

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HEMSDUDE@reddit

Best info/advice on the topic - Don’t Get Shot By Either Of Them

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Outrageous-Basis-106@reddit

The advantage for 45 is the size of the wound channel. I forget the UOM but its something like 4.3 for 45 vs 2.8 for 9. So a single shot from a 45 will cause more bleeding and probability of contacting something vital then 9 (given similar shot placement).

However 9 tends to have several advantages such as lighter recoil for better and faster followup shots which seems a lot better than some increased singular wound. Guns can hold more unless there is a size differense. Less weight. Guns may fit the shooter better. Cheaper so more shooting to get better.

People who push 45 seem to get fixated on the one shot numbers and dismiss everything else. If obsessing about that number then 40 S&W would be the winner since the wound size is close to same as 45 but has more advantages like capacity and smaller grip.

Of course some of the pros and cons won't apply such as a person with big hands probably doesn't care about a smaller grip.

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PacoBedejo@reddit

If you're gonna bring up 40S&W, you've gotta mention its faster brother, 10mm.

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Coeruleus_@reddit

Don’t bring 40 s&w into this

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PinheadLarry2323@reddit

Regardless of what people are saying, 9mm is objectively better no matter their reasoning is. You’ll notice a lot of people in the comments talking about shot placement being more important. 9mm would be better because you get more ammo, and less recoil impulse than .45 - so you’re able to get faster follow up shots more accurately than .45

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Coeruleus_@reddit

Just man up and roll 10mm and call it a day

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SniperSRSRecon@reddit

45 is slower, but due to its size hits harder and creates bigger wounds, but might not go as far in.

9mm is faster, creates smaller wounds, and is more likely to go farther in the body.

This is very generic, and based more on averages. While I say the wound is smaller for 9, it’s almost as big as 45. 45 is more likely to cause a system shock due to impact, but can vary due to different things, like drug use. There are also a lot of different factors involved, such as powder charge, bullet weight, barrel length and others.

Most modern 45s can carry about the same as 9s (for example the fnx carries 15).

For me the differences aren’t that noticeable (barring a 1911), so I say use what you want. I use 9x18mak in my carry and 5.7 in my home defense. (Also 5.7 is the superior pistol caliber, faster and less recoil than 9, wounds are similar to a 45).

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DonutLord88@reddit

I’ve worked forensics and have seen just as many 45s and 9mms recovered from autopsy. That being said I’ve seen just as many 45s and 9mms from the hospital. In the end it comes down to shot placement and ammunition choice.

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chronoglass@reddit

At 5 yards all orange slices are deadly

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hitemlow@reddit

Are you in a state with magazine limits? If yes, consider 10mm or .45AARP. For everyone else, there's 9mm.

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Big_Bill23@reddit

Shot placement is more important than caliber size in this case.

9mm is less expensive, so training/practice is less expensive.

Your choice.

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Able_Twist_2100@reddit

Carry 9mm in combat, they're good folks just trying to serve their country the same as you or me.

Carry .45 for defense against criminals, kill their soul to clean up the earth as well as the afterlife.

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sootfactory335d@reddit

Only thing .45 is better at is shooting suppressed.....beyond that 9mm and 45 poke very comparable holes in targets but 9mm does it faster with less recoil and can carry more......

I love classic 1911 weapons more than anything and I am willing to admit 9mm is superior at pretty much everything with appropriate ammo selection.

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giraffesinhats@reddit

As an owner of both. 45 acp is a large heavy round and to carry the same amount of 45 as the 9mm you’re going to be weighed down. 9mm does the same job and you have more weight to spare when carrying extra ammunition just like you said. In the end 9mm is for plinking unless you’re over 60, in that case, carry away, you’re not doing any dynamic movement anyways. Also 9mm blows lungs out so why wouldn’t you want one?

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Edwardteech@reddit

A good carry ammo in 9mm 45 or 40 will do effectively the same job. I just get way more 9mm so i go with that.

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LiberalLamps@reddit

In the past .45 AARP did outperform 9mm simply because a bigger bullet creates a bigger hole which does more damage aka more stopping power. The trade off was capacity, like half the capacity.

With modern 9mm defensive ammo you don’t need to trade off capacity because the rounds are so effective vs just 20-30 years ago.