Why bullpup SMGs not more common for CQB? like a P90 /TAVOR X95 9mm/Steyr AUG Para 9mm/CS-LS2 etc... or MP5 Bullpuped could be better with is longer barrel than a UZI or MP7?( i know they are quasi-bullpup sort of ) and what's the optimal barrel lenght for 9mm for Police/Military purpose ?
Posted by Adorable-Trust4687@reddit | Firearms | View on Reddit | 84 comments
APaleDudeNamedKen@reddit
We need the M7 smg asap
BloodyRightToe@reddit
The MP5 doesn't really need a longer barrel for CQB and it certainly doesn't need a shittier trigger.
The real thing is that a bull pup gets you a longer barrel which you dont need for CQB. The longer barrel lets you take your CQB carbine and reach out further. As opposed of taking your midrange carbine converting it to a bullpup to get it into a CQB length.
Now I love me a good bull pup but the when you are looking to outfit an army and you have specific rolls rarely do you want to pay the bullpup price for a standard carbine.
xqk13@reddit
Probably because most are already short enough, pistol rounds don’t really benefit from longer barrels that much and if the gun is any shorter you run into ergonomic problems like a very short front end to put your non dominant hand on, kinda like the mdrx micron.
The-Fotus@reddit
Or the Flux raider concept. I love it, don't get me wrong. But it is an inferior weapon to a dedicated PCC.
KitsuneKas@reddit
IMO the only thing you get out of a full sized PCC vs. a flux raider is a static barrel and optic for a bit more mechanical accuracy.
A PCC will generally fit into the same footprint as something like a .300 BO pdw, which is a lot more potent in the same form factor. A raider fits into nearly the same footprint as a handgun but still gives you a more stable platform. It's not really meant to be in the PCC niche so much as a stocked/braced pistol.
PCCs are great, and my absolute favorite gun in my collection is a PCC, but they're not really better at anything than other stuff can be.
The-Fotus@reddit
The ergonomics of a PCC are far fat better than the ergonomics of a flux raider. The only benefit the raider has over a PCC is concealability.
No one should try arguing the Flux is worse than a handgun, it's way more accurate than a handgun. But it's less accurate, less ergonomic, and less comfortable to use than something like an MPX or MP5.
You're not wrong with 300 blk being better than 9mm though.
Adorable-Trust4687@reddit (OP)
yes clearly the first problem if is too short ,thanks and well imaged with the mdrx micron
xqk13@reddit
The groza is another example of being too short, but even worse because there literally no handguard lol. The risk of accidentally putting your hand over the muzzle is too high for comfort.
Adorable-Trust4687@reddit (OP)
hilarious yes true point
MrFartyStink@reddit
If you are carrying something rifle size then why not run a rifle. rifle wins in every category except over penetration. But thats also ammo specific.
KitsuneKas@reddit
5.56 wins in the overpenetration category too. It's the heavier bullets that tend to overpenetrate the most.
Unicorn187@reddit
The people who do the most CQB, already have a short rifle that's almost as short as most SMGs. And a short 5.56 is still more effective than an SMG or pistol caliber carbine..
Carquetta@reddit
5.56 (out of even short barrels) also doesn't overpenetrate like pistol caliber rounds, thanks to the round's velocity
KitsuneKas@reddit
It's not about the velocity, it's due to the mass of the bullet. The lightest 5.55 rounds are a third the weight of the heaviest 9mm rounds. A 55gr bullet is a lot easier to destabilize and will lose lethality after penetration much faster than a 147gr bullet, even if the former is going significantly faster initially.
Notably, though, this all depends on actually hitting your target. Pretty much everything will go through a whole house if it misses.
MandaloreZA@reddit
Because SMGs are not in common use anymore. Therefore no development is focused on them.
1990, every police force in the US and MP5s or Colt 9mm carbine.
2010, Almost every police force switched to Colt LE6920s or similar in 223 remington.
Long barrels are fine for 9mm, people complaining about the bullet over expanding are missing the point with a submachine gun. Which is to dump 5 rounds at a time into the target. Anything that can live with 10-15 rounds into the chest is probably something you shouldn't have shot at in the first place.
Able_Twist_2100@reddit
Long barrels are fine, but arguably pointless.
KitsuneKas@reddit
Long barrels aren't pointless if you cut them at an angle.
Adorable-Trust4687@reddit (OP)
XD
Carquetta@reddit
?
TheRabidSpatula@reddit
Because it's more length than the original. Dumb
Mountain_Man_88@reddit
Contrary to video games, CQB is not a very common use case for a firearm. Even when it is, it's not generally worthwhile to carry one gun specifically for CQB and have to carry a second gun for engagements at distance when you could carry a carbine that's pretty good at both.
Some SWAT teams will set up specifically for close quarters with SMGs, but will typically also have M4 style guns available. Some high level special ops teams will consider SMGs for CQB, but generally just use M4s with 10.5" barrels. SMGs or PDWs used to be pictured for use by vehicle crews, but vehicle crews are using small arms so infrequently that there's no good reason to develop special weapons just for them. They often end up with handguns or carbines.
There's a lot you can do to keep a longer gun pretty maneuverable. There's not a lot you can do to make an SMG a good choice for 300+ yard shots.
DannyDanumba@reddit
Most CQB footage I’ve seen comes from police officers and it’s much like what you said, AR 15s and glocks. They use what they got and what they got is usually the standardized mass distributed stuff.
thankyoumicrosoft69@reddit
Some of my local swat guys have mp7s, kinda neat
Mountain_Man_88@reddit
MP7s are cool as hell but are also kinda shitty for CQB/police use. 4.6mm just doesn't have great terminal ballistics. The one thing it has going for it is the ability to punch through light armor which isn't honestly that useful. Something like an MP9 would be a better alternative to the MP7, but most places will still run primarily M4 style rifles for versatility.
thankyoumicrosoft69@reddit
Theres a ton of guns that I think are "neat" but would be low on the list of stuff id kick doors with. I like the MP7, Id trust my life to it unless I knew id be going up against lvl3 or 4 plates. Everything depends on the situation.
Id take the MP7 over the 9 specifically due to its caliber, but Id also just as quickly use an MP5 and have relatively low qualms about it unless I was expecting armored targets. Which USUALLY isnt applicable for police but is becoming more and more common.
Just give me some decent AP 5.56 and out of a 12.4 or 10.5 whatever and Id call it a day.
englisi_baladid@reddit
What benefits do you think 4.6 has of 9mm that you would run it.
thankyoumicrosoft69@reddit
You cant think of a single benefit 4.6 has over 9mm?
englisi_baladid@reddit
Not for carrying as secondary. And there isn't any reason to use either for a primary.
Adorable-Trust4687@reddit (OP)
ok it's true
1leggeddog@reddit
Not common because they are short enough
jtj5002@reddit
Most defensive handgun rounds are designed to properly expand in a 4-5" barrel. Majority of them will over expand and under pen when fired from a barrel that's too long, and under expand and over pen when fired from a barrel too short.
Impossible-Debt9655@reddit
What about 6" barrel? I've read before that a 9mm gains as much velocity as a .357 when fired from a 6" barrel.
I didn't do a deep dive research because I wanted the gun (extar) lol wasn't going to research myself out of a decent inexpensive gun.
SohndesRheins@reddit
Maybe if you compared a 6 inch 9mm to a 2.5 or 3 inch .357 Magnum, but if you are comparing 9mm to a full-sized 6 inch .357 then you can't duplicate the velocity even in an 18 inch 9mm barrel.
Impossible-Debt9655@reddit
Yah that was the idea. A typical defensive .357 is a 2 or 3 inch barrel. With alot more recoil unpleasantness, expensive ammo, both meaning less training.
"Same" velocity, big punch, but wayyy cheaper to shoot was my excuse thought process LOL
SohndesRheins@reddit
That comes with the tradeoff of having to conceal carry a pistol that has a 6 inch barrel, plus you are limited on options for handgun model, holster, and everything else. You'd basically need a competition model since there isn't much of a market for CCWing a semiautomatic handgun that large.
Impossible-Debt9655@reddit
I got an extar, a PCC carbine. I mean technically i think it can be CCW, but it was more for home defense and a fun range toy.
My ccw is a 3.4" barrel I believe. A ruger American Compact
Apprehensive-Low3513@reddit
It will all depend on the projectile used.
If you’re running something like +P 135gr Critical Duty, Id bet it’ll do great out of a 6” because that projectile absolutely loves higher velocities.
Impossible-Debt9655@reddit
But for sure. I am running nosler 125 grain HP lol
Impossible-Debt9655@reddit
Can't use +p in the Extar. 90% is polymer
Adorable-Trust4687@reddit (OP)
Very interesting and very good point
robertbreadford@reddit
Leave the MP5 alone
ChiefFox24@reddit
Yea. That mp5 drawing is longer than an actual mp5
Snider83@reddit
If going to bullpup, why not bullpup rifle round?
Christophe12591@reddit
Because not everyone is right handed. If 15 percent of your task force are lefty’s by chance, you got equipment that is worthless to well, 15 percent of your operators
Gwmblr@reddit
The Tavor 9MM is a must-have for me... Found one locally, and they're just too expensive for what you get - for me at least//: They made such a low production of them as well.
gameragodzilla@reddit
One, bullpups are only truly necessary for rifles since they need longer barrel lengths to really get their best performance. Pistols are designed for shorter barrels and so don’t need it as much.
Two, really compact SMGs/PCCs generally will design the gun to have the magazine in the grip, such as the TP9, MP7, or Uzi and MAC-10 back in the day. That’s because the other benefit of pistol rounds is that they’re shorter than rifle rounds as well. That allows you to be even more compact than even a bullpup because you can have a folding stock/brace which bullpups generally can’t get.
So you’d only see bullpup PCCs if they’re adaptations of existing bullpup designs like the Aug or Tavor. The lone exception is the P90 and that’s because it has a unique top loaded magazine system for significantly higher capacity without taking too much vertical space. It’s a neat design, but since it’s not widely copied, most SMGs just either keep the conventional layout for ergonomics or put the magazine in the pistol grip for compactness.
noimpactnoidea_@reddit
Because SBRs exist. With advancements in ballistics, there's very few scenarios i can think of where a PCC is the better choice over an SBR.
Kyle_Blackpaw@reddit
because pistols exist, can be carried alongside a real rifle, and reloading your armpit sucks
Potativated@reddit
There’s nothing I love more than clearing malfunctions in a bullpup, let me tell you. Mushy triggers are a close second.
KolopiGamingAndStuff@reddit
Mushy triggers don't really matter in cqb situations tho no? You won't be firing an MP5 at something 400 yards away no matter if it's a normal MP5 or a theoretical bullpup MP5, but yeah malfunctions can be a bitch
You_Just_Hate_Truth@reddit
Plus a lot slower, in general, to load do to the location of the magazine well
BeenisHat@reddit
A lot slower relatively speaking. That's mostly training and practice though and is it slower enough to matter?
You be the judge.
thankyoumicrosoft69@reddit
Paul?
BeenisHat@reddit
blessed be my son.
You_Just_Hate_Truth@reddit
I think so, and I get that, but if something is going wrong you have to break your cheekweld to see what’s happening vs an eye shift and slightly turning the rifle when the well is in front of the pistol grip. I also see it as a more complex task when shooting prone. But my actual experience with bullpups is very limited so that’s just my general impressions without much experience operating one to back it up.
slav_superstar@reddit
Nothing like trying to clear the ejection tube on the f2000 when 3 plastic blank rounds neatly jam together into a single blob 😌😌
Adorable-Trust4687@reddit (OP)
=)
mcnastytk@reddit
As a lefty bullpup isn't even an option
yorgee52@reddit
Reliably. Bullpups have too many potential points of errors. Any advantage you could get from a bullpup can easily be outdone by simply weapon handling techniques with an M4.
backcountry57@reddit
Interesting take, as a life long bullpup user I haven't noticed any major issues with the design.
ozzyozzyozz@reddit
A downside to bullpups is that if you have to switch what side your shooting from, you can get hot brass ejected into your face; Depending on how your rifle ejects of course. Being able to shoot from your opposite side in a firefight is crucial
Beebjank@reddit
This was true for older bullpups but newer ones don't really have this issue, even new AUGs with their brass deflector. It's gassier but you wont get hit with brass.
ozzyozzyozz@reddit
My buddy has a tavor and said he cannot shoot it weak side without getting hit
thankyoumicrosoft69@reddit
My buddy has an X95 or whatever its called and I can shoot it lefty but it is weird
AlphaTangoFoxtrt@reddit
But why?
The benefits of a bullpup is a longer barrel in a shorter package. SMGs do not need longer barrels since they fire pistol rounds.
You're getting all the problems of a bullpup (Mushy trigger, different manual of arms, more complicated jams) with none of the benefits.
windowmaker525@reddit
Because they’re short enough as is. You don’t need a 20 inch barrel to get the maximum performance out of a 9mm as you do with 5.56. Five inches will do the trick. 😉
BeenisHat@reddit
https://imgur.com/a/Xw8gLyK
There I fixed it.
Adorable-Trust4687@reddit (OP)
XD
Darksept@reddit
For velocity and maneuverability, 8 inches is the ideal barrel length. If the NFA didn't exist and we had no restrictions on barrel length or over-all-length laws, we could make some optimal stuff. The market is too small thanks to that. But yes, as a fan of bullpups, there definitely should be more 9mm based bullpup designs.
Adorable-Trust4687@reddit (OP)
My man ;)
Dracon1201@reddit
Because it's the goofiest idea to severely downgrade your lethality by choosing a PCC version that is literally the same length as the much more deadly rifle version. There is 0 reason to do so outside of drip.
StorkyMcGee@reddit
If I had to guess:
The MP5 is an icon at this point.
Bullpups tend to have squishy triggers. Hard core CQB operators may hate that.
UncleMark58@reddit
Not a big fan of the chamber right next to my noggin.
Agammamon@reddit
Because no one's carrying an SMG of any type along with their other gear on the chance they have to shoot in a house.
Because the rifle does fine - especially in the carbine format.
Because bullpups generally suck - as evidence by all the armies that are ditching theirs. They're really hard to reload.
The optimum length 'for police purposes' is a 10-14 in AR in 5.56 w/suppressor or a 6 in duty pistol in 9mm. Cops that do 'house-clearing' use AR's for a reason.
greankrayon@reddit
They would rather buy one do all weapon for paperwork and budgeting reasons.
DumbNTough@reddit
Because pistol rounds suck and short barreled rifles have nearly relegated SMGs to obsolescence as a category.
vuther_316@reddit
Probably because 1. You need a certain length for a firearm to actually be usable 2. If you have a longer barrel, you can just use a rifle round and use it as an SBR, and this would have much better terminal performance. For instance, the dt MDR micron Is only 4 inches longer than the p90, and has an 11.5 in barrel firing 5.56.
Apprehensive_Cook911@reddit
Because its not a rifle round that necomes castrated when fried out of a 5" barrel.
RegardedAndAcoustic@reddit
I don't see a benefit to a 9mm or 45acp or 10mm bullpup with a 12-16 inch barrel when I can get better performance from the same gun but in 300blk. If you want subs, 300blk subs. If you want supers, 5.56 or 300 blk supers.
If you solely use subs, the Sig Rattler shows an SMG sized package with better performance.
Military it makes sense to condense logistical footprint. Not many militaries use bullpup primary rifles in the first place.
For police agencies, idk. Maybe the extra training a bullpup would desire in comparison. I can't imagine many situations where a pistol caliber carbine or SBR is a better choice than a 5.56 or 300blk SBR or carbine. Unarmored target, rifle has better lethality. Armored target, pistol calibers are at a disadvantage again.
And before we start to discuss the option of replacing shotguns with PCCs, pump shotguns are affordable, durable, and reliable with a wide range of payloads. Buckshot, birdshot, bean bags or other less lethal. So that's why a shotgun probably isn't getting replaced by an MP5 or P90.
snuffy_bodacious@reddit
Bullpups are great, and I love them, but there are a few noted disadvantages.
1) Lefties like me (not politically) don't exactly like taking hot brass straight to the face. There are sometimes workarounds to this problem, but it's still a problem. You can't just switch between right-and-left as you might want to for CQB. (Note: my RDB is awesome for this very reason.)
2) Clearing malfunctions on bullpups can sometimes be more challenging. (Note: my RDB sucks for this very reason.)
3) For PCCs, you aren't usually talking about very long guns to begin with. The advantages of saving on length isn't very significant.
4) Swapping mags isn't super difficult on most bullpups, but usually isn't as intuitive as traditional rifles, and therefore requires a little more training to develop competency.
5) Longer guns give you a better site radius. This still matters for irons.
Adorable-Trust4687@reddit (OP)
take my vote =)
SnowDin556@reddit
The ambidextrous level is crap. As a predominant lefty I don’t wants shells in my face.
Longer barrel is nice too but the heat building up next to my face. Idk i may need more experience.
Beebjank@reddit
9mm does not benefit as much from a longer barrel than rifle calibers.
BarryHalls@reddit
For CQ 4-5" is plenty for hand gun calibers and 7-10" is often far too much. As others have stated, these rounds are designed to function best over a narrow range of velocity.
For rifle rounds even with 10", the power and penetration are overkill, which can be desirable, even at 50-100 yards.
The bullpup is for something that needs to serve a dual role from 10 feet 300+ yards. A 10" AR with suppressor has better ergonomics, lighter, cheaper, and easier to maintain than a bullpup and 99% as effective for something dedicated to 100 yards or less.