Ford Teases Sub-7-Minute 'Ring Lap for Mustang GTD
Posted by 221missile@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 167 comments
Posted by 221missile@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 167 comments
hi_im_bored13@reddit
I still don't understand how or why a sub 7-minute lap time is impressive when you have 992 GT3's, Manthey GT4's, 296 GTB (a sport-auto conducted test too, not a factory lap) all sub-7. And all, including the 296, retail for under or around the same 325k price tag.
Love the technology on the GTD, the sound, and the story, but that sort of lap time feels like an expectation. I'd sure hope it beats a manual Viper ACR from years ago with older tire tech on a non-factory lap.
theColeHardTruth@reddit
Yeah! Besides, it could never compete with something like a 918, which did a 6...57?
Also, just because they say sub-7 doesn't mean it's "barely" sub-7 like everyone seems keen to assume for some reason. Let's not forget the fastest cars short of the AMG One are barely sub-6:45... Not a tremendous margin when you consider that the difference between a C6 Z06 and a C7 Z06 is nearly 10 seconds.
the_lamou@reddit
... It's a HUGE margin. You know how the Richter scale for earthquake is logarithmic, and the change between numbers is an order of magnitude so the difference between a 6 and a 7 is bigger than the difference between a 6 and a 1? That's how lap times are at the extreme end. A one second difference between a 6:46 and a 6:45 is a bigger deal than a one minute difference between an 8:00 and a 7:00. Especially when the goal is to beat the Europeans — at that point, you either break 6:45, or you don't bother talking about it.
theColeHardTruth@reddit
You're right that the difficulty to go faster as goes up as times get faster, but still. As I mentioned in another comment, the difference between the '09, '11, and '13 Nissan GTRs is also 10 seconds.
Also as for the "6:45 or bust" attitude, that's projection of the finest caliber. Since the beginning the marketing has only been "under 7:00", so everyone all of a sudden shifting the goalposts is wildly inappropriate. Though not unexpected.
the_lamou@reddit
No one is shitting the goalposts. Just pointing out that a $300,000 custom hand-built "Mustang" getting a number lower than a mass-market car that Porsche will sell to anyone who can make it through the dealership door with a big enough check isn't actually a win, and definitely not impressive enough to build a whole marketing campaign around.
The Corvette (and Viper before it) get accolades because they cost less than the German alternatives and actually give those cars a run for their money, even if they don't ultimately take first place. They're Rudy, or The Mighty Ducks: they may not be the absolute best, but damnit they've got heart and they try harder. The Mustang GTD is the new guy at your gym that came in pumped full of steroids, did two reps at almost the facility record, and then preened in front of a mirror for an hour talking loudly about how he was going to kick everyone's ass.
theColeHardTruth@reddit
Yes they are. The marketing has never, ever been about price, value, or anything other than "sub-7", yet people keep making it about price or about other times because... Well I have no clue. Not like anyone here is cross-shopping a GTD and a GT2RS anyway.
See, there's that projection again. I'd mention again how the only thing they've marketed is sub-7, but I get the impression that you'd either gloss over it or make another wildly inaccurate analogy. So I'm going to be the bigger man and stop trying to convince you, since any time I do you're just going just ad-hoc your way to a completely different conclusion entirely anyway.
Have a great rest of your day.
mugdays@reddit
Jim Farley, Ford's CEO: "I think it'll be faster on the [Nurburg]ring than a GT3 RS"
BriarsandBrambles@reddit
No. Just no. He did not say that.
Charming_Boss_7178@reddit
He did say that. Interview with Daniel Mac on Tik Tok.
mugdays@reddit
I am literally quoting from a video where he says that
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
AutoModerator@reddit
Unfortunately your comment has been removed because it contains a link to a delisted domain. This is almost always due to spam from the domain.
Please use a different source.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
the_lamou@reddit
Because... that's part of how we evaluate cars? By evaluating subjective and objective factors against each other to determine whether a product is worthwhile or not? Because we're mostly-literate, assumedly rational consumers who weigh capabilities against costs?
You're arguing a red herring. Absolutely no one is saying that Ford didn't advertise a "sub-7." What everyone is saying is "so what?" It's not that we disagree with the marketing, or that those were the claims made. It's that we're not impressed because there's nothing impressive about a $300,000 car running a sub-7 'Ring time.
Are you sure about that? There are some pretty impressive garages on here.
My conclusion hasn't changed once: a sub-7 time isn't impressive from this car at this time. You seem to be confused about what people are telling you, so maybe it's best you do bow out before you wear down your keyboard writing "sub-7" over and over again like that's the part people have an issue with.
420bIaze@reddit
A 1 second difference over near 7 minutes is within the margin of error, it's literally no difference, it's 0.2% of the lap time. A tonne of factors that have nothing to do with the car's quality will create a bigger variance than that, you can't draw any conclusion from it.
Maybe it's a big deal in marketing terms to some people.
Looking at this page, there are zero cars in the range 6:45-6:57, so it doesn't seem like it should be particularly important:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N%C3%BCrburgring_Nordschleife_lap_times
hi_im_bored13@reddit
The 918 did a 6:57 on decade old tires, a 992 GT3 beats it around the nordschlife, 10 years in tire technology is huge. Also why I mention the ACR, that 7:01 was 7 years ago, it would likely lap much faster on modern tires.
Yes, but those "fastest cars" are the 992 3RS, and the GT Black Series. In this video ford mentioned they wanted to "go beat the europeans on their home turf," thats the European competition they need to go up against.
I'd say that comparison puts just into perspective just how big of a difference 10 seconds is, it's quite literally a generational leap in performance.
epihocic@reddit
I feel like tyre tech has actually slowed right down. For instance the PS4S released in 2016...
hi_im_bored13@reddit
They released the pilot sport s 5 (horrible naming scheme) just a short while back. Extremely grippy tire on the AMG GT series cars. PS5 released a year or so back as well
epihocic@reddit
It just doesn't seem like that much of a jump over the 4S. I'm no tyre expert but I pay a bit of attention to tyres and watch tyre reviews, and I still regularly see the PS4S come up in comparison reviews, and it always ranks quite highly, still after 8 years. The main con of the tyre is poor feel/feedback.
The Cup 2 was also released around the same time as the 4S (I think maybe a year prior), and it's still an extremely competitive tyre.
theColeHardTruth@reddit
Decade-old hypercar tires, let's not forget.
I mean, that's the competition you decided they need to go up against. Technically they could spar with the Hurricane Performante and be ahead of many "europeans on their home turf", which would also satisfy their requirements. I'll agree with you when I say they should target the best of the best, but the marketing is vague enough that that's not necessarily what they may even be shooting for.
Yes, and in the case of the Corvette, not a significant one. The 150hp difference is a vast majority of the delta I'd argue, considering most comments about Z06es of both generations are very similar.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
There isn't anything like a "hypercar tire" per se, yes manufacturers are going to tune it for each car, but they are going with the stickiest option possible at the time.
The 3RS & Black series both used the evolution of that tire for their lack attempts, the Cup 2R. You can order the same exact tire for yourself, either in porsche-oem or mercedes-oem trim, or from michelin in a more standard formula. I run them from time to time as well, neat rubber.
No, thats the competition the price tag decided they needed to go up against, the GTD is a 325k car, the aforementioned GT3 & GT4, even after markup, can be found for cheaper. It would be embarrassing to tease "beating the europeans on their home turf" and referring to their entry-level GT products.
Worth noting the previous gen GT3RS clocked a sub-7 time, and the GT2RS clocked a 6:47 in '17 (not even the manthey version, just weissach). As someone who was quite excited for the GTD I'd be disappointed if they can't match the previous, 7 year old porsche flagship.
I still love the idea of the GTD and I especially love the look & sound of the finished product, I just don't understand how a sub-7 is something to tease about.
Another car people understate refreshes/refinements over time for, they made a lot of small updates those 5 years that really added up.
shellmiro@reddit
We've pretty much reached peak road legal track tyre without going slicks with the Cup 2R. Pirelli Trofeo RS is even softer but is a one lap wonder. Fun fact, the Aston Martin Valkyrie uses the same exact compound of tires as the 992 GT3RS. It's mostly for cost saving purposes given how good the tyre already is
hi_im_bored13@reddit
It feels like such a cheat tire to drive on. Tremendous grip everywhere, zero wet weather performance, zero grip when it's even mildly chilly, zero life. I'm not even that much of a fan of the standard Cup 2.
I have nothing against manufacturers using it for record attempts, gotta do what you gotta do, after all it is a tire you can order from the factory if you so wish. It's just extremely funny to drive on.
I'd be interested in record laps where everyone goes out on a PS4S. Even more interesting would be putting everyone on those shitty run-flat all-season bridgstone alenza's that seem to be all the rage on CUVs, but it may be borderline hazardous.
shellmiro@reddit
If you drive a car riding on CUP 2Rs with more than 300-400HP, you basically have to spend 10 mins at the start of every trip warming up the tires if you don't want to end up hugging a tree on the side of the road. A friend of mine recently took delivery of a 750s and floored it coming out of the dealership parking lot. 740HP + unwarmed CUP 2Rs = lots of brown pants. It's like skating on ice if you don't drive like a grandma. I firmly believe that the PS4S is the best all round tire for basically any sort of performance car. Perfect grip for daily driving, wet weather and the occasional track day.
xlb250@reddit
I like 200tw a lot more for the steering feel and grip. They are ready by the time the engine is warmed up.
Spencie61@reddit
Depends on the 200. I have enjoyed my Continental ECF a lot but I think if I had a super 200 instead of an enduro 200 I’d be less enthused.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
And even once you've heated them up you have to keep them there or else it gets greasy, any tire at that level (RE71R, the v720 used on the ACR) is going to have the same issue.
Unless you are genuinely pushing at 9/10-10/10ths for 10+ minutes at a time its a waste of money
theColeHardTruth@reddit
That's simply incorrect. A vast majority of even supercars use off-the-shelf rubber, absolutely. But when you step into the realm of hypercars all bets are off. Mclaren P1, LaFerrari, Bugatti Anything all use bespoke rubber custom-made for their respective applications. The P1's were essentially slicks, even.
No, that's a goalpost you arbitrarily assigned. The marketing has always and only been "sub-7". This isn't a value car, even as an enthusiast or performance product. The price is essentially irrelevant.
Because, it's not an unreasonable thing to tease about, since again, the marketing has always been about it. Always. To shift it at this point would make little sense. In fact, to reveal that it had somehow broke the 6 minute barrier would make more sense to do through the time reveal itself, not through the leadup marketing. Of course, both of our analyses are subjective regardless here, but I do feel it is important to draw the distinction.
The list of changes are (according to Wiki): +70hp, Larger Brakes, Stiffened Suspension/Chassis, +10% downforce, -26.5lb. The horsepower bump is significant, but not so much the rest I'd argue.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
You aren't incorrect in the sense those cars are running customized semi-slick rubber, but what you are missing is that rubber is easily available for any car, and all record attempts are done on very similar rubber. As another commenter pointed out, the Valkyrie uses the same exact compound as the record 992 GT3RS, and the AMG One is very similar derivative compound.
You can order a set of those tires and run them on your HHR if you so wish, semi-slicks are readily available and aren't uncommon to see at timed events or even standard track days. I've run very similar grades of tires myself. Your options here are either Michelin or Pirelli, Michelin with the Cup2 line and Pirelli with the Trofeo line, their flagships are the Cup2R & Trofeo RS respectively, both can change up the tread & sidewall and make it a little stickier but they aren't fundamentally re-engineering the tire.
There are stickier tires you can buy yourself if you so wish
Except for the video above ... where they go on about how the mission is to "go beat the europeans on their home turf", I'm not quite sure what europeans they are referring to here but it would be extremely disappointing if it were the aforementioned GT4 & GT3.
It is a bit unreasonable when cars, including the flagship ACR, were competing for and achieving sub-7 over 7 years ago with older tire technology and at a fraction of the cost. Why brag about it at all when technology has moved on since then. I was very interested in one, the sound & look are unrivaled, the engineering is incredible and I'm sure it will feel great, but sub-7 is not particularly interesting these days.
Rest of them aren't particularly interesting on their own, but they do add up. The brakes & chassis in particular.
IlIlIlIlIl241l23lIlI@reddit
This guy over here, when you're too much of a fanboy to make any kind a sense...
UltimaRS800@reddit
unlike 911 and 296 GTB, Mustang GTD is not a rear or rear mid engined smallish supercar. it's a frontid engined big coupe
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Much like the Mercedes GT Black Series, it's a transaxle layout with pretty solid weight distribution.
UltimaRS800@reddit
GT is a low to ground tiny car. It'a basically a german C7 corvette. Not a fair comparison.
BTTWchungus@reddit
You should have your eyes checked. An AMG GT is NOT tiny
UltimaRS800@reddit
Google them sids by side
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
AutoModerator@reddit
Unfortunately your comment has been removed because it contains a link to a delisted domain. This is almost always due to spam from the domain.
Please use a different source.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
BTTWchungus@reddit
The GT Black Series is the target Ford should be aiming for, as that's the best RWD front-engined car on the Nurburgring
Spaghetto23@reddit
Unfortunately it's not front mid like the AMG
AskListenSee@reddit
It’s a god damn Mustang that is about to do it, that’s why lol look at the list of cars that have gone sub 7. It’s impressive. You sound like an idiot blabbing away about why would they think this is impressive etc.
If you don’t understand why it’s impressive then you clearly just don’t get it or understand how difficult it is for a car to nail every section of the course in order to hit sub 7.
Having a lot of HP or DF isn’t enough to do it, on its own the car needs to be so well balanced and designed that everything comes together. It has to be able to give the driver the confidence they can even push it to that point. There’s plenty of very fast, expensive cars that can’t do sub 7.
And again, this is a Mustang. It has never competed at this level in the brands history.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
It’s a 325k transaxle mustang with pushrod suspension; saying it’s just a mustang is like saying a 911 is just a big beetle.
At that price point, sub-7 is an expectation, not something to brag about. All of their competition is well ahead of sub-7. The ACR could hit that time 7 years ago for a fraction of the cost.
AskListenSee@reddit
It’s not a given at that price point. There are many cars selling for that much that do not lap the ring in under 7. Appreciate it for what it is, which is a Ford Mustang that can do a sub 7 lap time. A couple years ago that would have never crossed a single persons mind. The fact Ford built this and went all out is insane and should be celebrated.
But keep being the kid who thinks they’re too cool for school.
BTTWchungus@reddit
This isn't a fucking Mustang, everything on the GTD is bespoke to itself only
True2this@reddit
This right here.
shellmiro@reddit
I think they might be going for the fastest "American car" or "Pony car" cachet. Neither makes any sense given that the Mustang doesn't have any competition in the pony car space now and the ZR1 will surely beat it's ring time in a few months.
Given that Farley's whole stance on the GTD was "making Porsche, Ferrari and the Europeans sweat", they probably have to get the record in quickly and beat the 992 GT3RS (6:54) before Manthey does their GT3RS MR time or Corvette does their ZR1 time. 992.1 GT3 did a 6:59 and the 992.2 GT3 already did it's timed run, the results of which will be revealed on the 18th during its reveal. They'll either have to reveal it quickly to get the record for marketing purposes or blow the time out of the water and do a low 6:50s lap
dam_sharks_mother@reddit
The ZR1 time will most likely be impressive but nobody is under the illusion that that car is going to be up to to the task of being beat-up around a track for 30 minutes like a GT3/RS or the GTD can handle.
These are two entirely different classes of vehicles.
Jusmon1108@reddit
Right, because there aren’t thousands upon thousands of stock corvettes being tracked weekly around the US? What a stupid take, the Z06 with the Z07 package was literally built to run track and the ZR1 will be the same, just faster. Here is a self proclaimed GT3 RS fanboy, with thousands of Nurburgring runs under his belt, saying the Z06 would probably as fast or faster if they did an official test. In closing, if Chevy does an official ZR1 run, it will absolutely eviscerate the GT3 RS and GTD.
randeus@reddit
Until we have an official time, how can we assume it’ll destroy the GTD. Nobody here even knows what it can do, so there seems to be a lot of assumptions being thrown around.
Jusmon1108@reddit
No need, it’s a worked over GT500. Gains 40hp, drops a couple hundred pounds, moves the transaxle to the back, throws in trick suspension, adds some aero. It definitely will be faster but it’s not surpassing a GT3 RS.
dam_sharks_mother@reddit
Except for the fact it has a dry dump engine, completely different spool valve suspension, 50/50 weight distribution thanks to a transaxle, and is custom manufactured by Multimatic and not Ford. But yea, just a "worked over" GT500.
randeus@reddit
That’s definitely an oversimplification.
BriarsandBrambles@reddit
Watch the GTD run a 6:40 or something insane and everyone freaks out.
shellmiro@reddit
I agree but 1064HP and 1200lbs of downforce is still a force to be reckoned with. I know that the nurburgring is alot more than HP and DF numbers but that's literally double the HP of a 3RS with similar DF numbers. The GTD has about 230HP less with slightly more DF. In the end it'll come down to chassis tuning, dynamics and weight but the ZR1 definitely has its hat in the ring if Corvette decide to run it, not to mention the upcoming Zora
LCHMD@reddit
The Zora will be heavier. I doubt it’s gonna make much of a difference
Equivalent-Money8202@reddit
ZR1 won’t beat the GT3RS
BriarsandBrambles@reddit
The Z06 can. Strapping turbos better tires and more down force and cooling on it and you have a wild animal.
Equivalent-Money8202@reddit
the gt3rs last gen has a 6:54 on the Ring. Where is the Z06?
BriarsandBrambles@reddit
Hasn't been run yet. However other tracks exist and it's pretty clear. The Z06 is faster on long straights and almost as fast cornering.
Equivalent-Money8202@reddit
other tracks are not the ring
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
Ford GT has had real dynamic and track capacity designs, but Ford doesn’t want to built new one as cost and marketing.
theninjallama@reddit
I don’t believe the Manthey GT4 is sub 7
Dan_TheGreat@reddit
First car registering a sub minute time in freedom units I believe. After the zr1, fords gotta hurry 😂
NorCalAthlete@reddit
Yeah, I can’t wait to see the zr1 ring time
LCHMD@reddit
Likely won’t even beat the GT3 RS with half the HP.
NorCalAthlete@reddit
Should be in the ballpark though. There was a Viper that ran a 7:01 and they benchmarked development against the 458/488 which ran a 7 flat if I recall correctly.
So I’d imagine they’re targeting at least a sub-7 ring time and considering the “less downforce” top speed version hit 233 mph with 2 executives in it, I have to imagine they put a ton of work into the aero version that’ll be setting the ‘ring time.
If you use a 911 turbo S as a proxy benchmark against the more track focused GT3RS, it’s 205 mph vs 185 mph so roughly 10% slower top speed for the heavy-aero track version.
That would put a track focused ZR1 somewhere around 210 mph top speed…and while this is definitely taking some liberties with the math, since we don’t know (or at least, I haven’t seen?) the C8 ZR1 track package and numbers, if we apply roughly the same ratios and percentages it would mean the ZR1 might well beat the GT3RS by several seconds. The ‘ring being a track where top speed can really make a difference in addition to the downforce and cornering.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Yeah, but that has less to do with American engineering and more to do with nobody really trying for a lap attempt before.
The ACR was a customer car with no factory support that crashed out, it had the potential to do a sub-7, the Z06 (or any C8-generation corvette) hasn't done a factory run yet, but sport auto did say it was the fastest car they've tested in 2024. I'd say it could go sub-7 on a good day with good tires, but who knows.
At the minimum an ACR with modern tires & factory backing could almost certainly shave off 1-2 seconds. With the MSRP on the GTD you'd hope it could compete with the 3RS much less the 2RS & Black Series its pricier than.
(yes the GTD has no markup - but its also extremely difficult to buy, so you could argue the pricing either way)
Dan_TheGreat@reddit
I do agree, and I was really pulling for the acr team several years ago with their last attempt. The c8 zo6 could maybe do it, I imagine the zr1 and zora will.
But if I’m Ford, “First American sub 7 minute” sounds a lot better than 1 second faster than zo6 1/3rd the price.
I’d place a crisp dollar on it being in the 6:55 range. 44 to beat (what I assume is) the most recent gt3rs seems like a tall order. I’m not a professional with any of what I’m talking about, I just think Porsche engineering is like 40% witchcraft.
Reconvened@reddit
I mean, not just Porsche but also Mercedes has the two fastest cars to lap the ring still and obviously their hyper car is fastest by a gigantic margin compared to any production car ever…like a chasm and it will go even faster apparently since they set the first lap time in awful wet conditions.
** But Chevy couldn’t even come close to the (also front engine rwd and ostensibly a bit less powerful than C7 zR1 (although I have to think Mercedes underrated or Chevy overrated because the thing is a monster engine even compared to the ZR1 (c7) amg black series). They weren’t even close and they don’t have the excuse of Porsche being rear engine because the Mercedes was front engine too and MUCH faster.
Not the hyper car - the front engine rwd merc destroyed the zr1. The ford won’t come close to it either despite being more expensive so I think it’s just a German thing. Are they just better than us at engineering? Why do Mercedes and Porsche completely dominate the ring and lambo is basically German (Porsche help them im sure through the VW pipeline)
Genuine question. My brother is a mechanical engineer and I need to press him on this
BriarsandBrambles@reddit
Are you actually asking if German companies are better because of an advantage on a German racetrack? If you built a 20 mile racetrack in Ohio Porsche would never be able to beat the Corvette around it because GM can go on any good day. The American companies have to cross an ocean to run track days if it's rained out they just don't get competitive lap times.
narcistic_asshole@reddit
Keep in mind the AMG GT Black Series is significantly more expensive than the C7 ZR1. The Black Series is a $350k car compared to the $120k ZR1.
Now with the GTD it'd a different story since that is a $300k+ track machine
PBR2019@reddit
I think Mazda is 50%…
the_lamou@reddit
GM and the Corvette team have tried before, though, with the C6 IIRC, and didn't come all that close. You're right about the price being a big deal, though. At that level, it would be very very sad if it didn't break 7.
Now if this was a Dark Horse, on the other hand, that would be exciting.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Didn't know that, neat. Apparently they tried with the C7 ZR1 as well:
Rest of the article went on to detail on how nurburgring then changed the format, they didn't have time to warm up the tires, etc., could totally just be excuses but even then the C7 scored a 7:05. I have a hard time imagining the C8 couldn't best that by 5 seconds minimum.
jbeck24@reddit
The German manufacturers, and particularly porsche, just have a huge advantage in setting times because of their familiarity with the ring for drivers and car setup and ease of access to choose days with good conditions
the_lamou@reddit
Yup, and the thing is, even if the ZR1 didn't set a record — even if it had "only" gotten a 7:06 — it still would've been cool because it cost a fraction of most of the cars in that time range and didn't go around swinging its dick while only allowing sales after a lengthy application process. It did the job at a lower cost with minimal fuss. Which is cool.
Bragging about how your mostly-bespoke pretty-much-actual-GT3 $300,000 car can run sub-7 is just trying too hard.
Spencie61@reddit
Well, the kicker is that their actual GT3 car is a pile. Going into the IMSA Watkins Glen race, they were given a massive power increase while already being the lightest car in the field. They have an unbelievable straight line advantage on everyone and yet never pulled together a win, or even a GTD-Pro pole.
blue_bomber697@reddit
GM tried for Ring lap times with the C7 Z06 and C7 ZR1 but ran into a whole host of non-car related issues for the multiple ring attempts they had so they never did get a clean lap. Weather was a big factor among other issues. I don't believe a factory attempt was made with the C8 Z06, but they did assist Sport Auto with their run I believe which will get published soon.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
AutoModerator@reddit
Unfortunately your comment has been removed because it contains a link to a delisted domain. This is almost always due to spam from the domain.
Please use a different source.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
221missile@reddit (OP)
They do not think that. Ford CEO has thrown open challenges to all automakers to face the GTD on track.
kagemusha35@reddit
Their marketing for the car ever since the creation of it has been sub 7 minute time. If they’re claiming that it can beat any car at the track, I’d love for them to say it outright. I think Ford (really multimatic) know they cannot beat the upcoming Porsches and other cars (AMG, ZR1/Zora), so they will continue to market it as trying to get a sub 7 minute time, which is still impressive. Just not $300k impressive IMO
dm117@reddit
Find me Ford marketing that states that
Da_hoodest_hoodrat@reddit
Their whole shtick for however many months was “this is a GT3RS killer” and they wouldn’t stop. Lo and behold, it doesn’t come close to a car with 200 less horsepower.
dm117@reddit
Firstly, find me where they said that and not some journalist. I wouldn’t mind being proven wrong. Also, horsepower isn’t everything. That’s what makes the GT3 RS so special. People love the Ferrari 296, which has more HP and an electric motor as well, yet it was slower than the GT3 RS on the Nuremberg. You’re also stating that it isn’t close to the GT3 RS yet I don’t see lap times for the GTD anywhere. There are literally only 3 cars faster than it.
kagemusha35@reddit
Not officially ford, but multimatic Founder says it at the beginning right here: https://youtu.be/s9FL7rTtPbw?si=FqOptV2BIYDGsSC7
dm117@reddit
I obviously meant Ford themselves. Also, doesn’t counter my other points.
kagemusha35@reddit
Ford had nothing to do with making this car. It was all multimatic. All ford did was provide the chassis and the predator engine. Rest of the car is multimatic and racing it is a multimatic venture
dm117@reddit
You really think Ford just gave them a chassis and and engine and called it a day lol? Also, the flag post keeps moving. My comment still stands. Plenty of cars have more HP and theoretically faster drivetrains than the GT3, doesn’t make it a terrible car.
kagemusha35@reddit
Yes. You’d be surprised how little the companies have to do with the race cars they test. Go ahead and do your own research on it. These companies are focused on building cars for mainstream consumers, not racing. They have separate divisions for that or they outsource to companies like multimatic to do all of that for them. Then they market the car in order to sell it. And again, I don’t think anyone would say it’s a terrible car. But it’s overpriced and the truth is that it will probably be beaten by other cars within the next year.
mugdays@reddit
I don't think the GTD will be faster than a GT3 RS around track, but Multimatic's founder thinks so, and he probably has more expertise in that area than I do.
kagemusha35@reddit
https://www.ford.com/performance/mustang-gtd/ It’s one of the first things on this page Google is free
dm117@reddit
My comment was a response to the guy saying that Ford said it was a “GT3 killer”
kagemusha35@reddit
So are you gonna delete the above comment to
dm117@reddit
No, because that’s a completely different point.
Niko740@reddit
The C8Z being 100k cheaper and likely faster is definitely taking the wind out of there sails
intern_steve@reddit
Eh. The Mustang is limited production. I'm sure the cars are all accounted for, at this point. Doesn't really make a difference if they never lap it at all.
Educational_Age_1333@reddit
I think it does because the GTD is being used for marketing and isn't a long term financial gain otherwise. Farley even recently said he wants to continue making cars like the GTD.
kc_kr@reddit
Especially the new ZR1 with that 233 mile an hour top speed. Holy crap.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
I think it's worth noting Multimatic is also the sole manufacturing partner on the AMG One, they assemble the car end-to-end. I believe they also did some aero work on the car and did the associated hydraulics, but I don't know if they contributed anything more.
IlIlIlIlIl241l23lIlI@reddit
Lol, that's cute. As if Porsche or Mercedes cared about Ford and their Mustang. Truth hurts, I know.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
If they do not think that, they should have said as much. 6:45 would have been a far more interesting target, same time as the 992 3RS.
zxrax@reddit
They should be aiming to beat the GT2 RS before it's even announced. With >3RS levels of downforce and >2RS levels of power, I'll be sort of unimpressed with anything short of 6:40 to be honest.
Reconvened@reddit
No chance it does that. And the 2RS (when releades$ and the Mercedes amg one (when it runs on a non soaking wet track) will both obliterate the mustang and the Mercedes should destroy even 6:40 they predict with ease. The mustang is actually not even that much cheaper than the Mercedes and it’s more expensive than the 2RS no? We both know it’s not in that league
zxrax@reddit
AMG One did a 6:29 in the dry recently. GTD is ~325k, about the same price as a 3RS with weissach and other options, so presumably similar to a basic 2RS when that comes out.
I wouldn't doubt the GTD as hard as you, but the germans' history/experience at the ring is definitely a strong advantage. Low 6:40s seems very likely.
Reconvened@reddit
I mean 10 seconds (realistically at least 15 imo) is a huge chasm given they have the same tire tech. 918 viper acr etc are incomparable due to tires alone but there’s no way on earth it’s getting within even 10 secs of the Mercedes, and the mustang actually is developed later. I strongly doubt it can even beat the GT2RS
randeus@reddit
But the GTD is developed by multimatic, not purely Ford. And I don’t know how there can be criticism for Mustangs feel and handling wise when the Mach 1 and the Shelbys exist.
zxrax@reddit
sure, but the merc is $5 million and needs an engine rebuild every 25k miles or some shit. that's a totally different universe. GTD is a 2RS competitor and I bet Porsche are working their asses off right now to make sure they will beat it. 815hp and more downforce is nothing to sneeze at.
hondaexige@reddit
Manthey GT4s aren't sub 7 - the GT4MR is 7.28 from memory and even the GT4RS-MR is 7:03.
03Void@reddit
The Viper ACR did 7:01 in 2017, a manual car. We're 7 years later with a much more technology advanced car and they're only going for one second faster?
Looking at the specs the Mustang GTD should fight with the Porsche GT2 RS.
Multifaceted-Simp@reddit
I'm willing to bet that the zr1 beats the gtd
cach-e@reddit
I have a 296 and I still think it's kinda cool a Mustang can do a sub-7. But I'll see myself out.
Da_hoodest_hoodrat@reddit
In true American fashion the goal post kept moving from “GT2RS killer” to “GT3RS killer” to “sub 7 minutes”😭
HughJass1947@reddit
Yes to everything you said.
Also, anything sub 7 is fucking fast.
Shoddy_Expert8108@reddit
Completely agree. I honestly think it would be genuinely embarrassing for them if they didn’t get a sub 7 minute time. We all know how good Porsche is but they did a 6:44 with a car with 500 horsepower. I would HOPE their halo ultra limited “racing inspired” track car could be within 15 seconds of that
nomosolo@reddit
I don’t see this as bragging as much as it is conforming to the public that it meets those sub-7 expectations
LawSchoolGuy83@reddit
Because there a lot less GTD than all the cars you just named.
BrendanKwapis@reddit
This comment section is so insufferable and awful to read through. Good God.
JediKnightaa@reddit
Redditors routinely sht on car engineers no matter how good they are
BigFootEnergy@reddit
Lots of ppl with sub 200hp cars being angry
savantick@reddit
Most have them probably have clapped out corollas and civics
bake_me@reddit
Like grumpy little bumblebees 🐝
randeus@reddit
This car has been getting a lot of hate because “it’s just a Mustang”. If it was any other car with these type of specs, the same haters would be drooling over it.
LCHMD@reddit
Anything else would be a huge disappointment. Come on!
mugdays@reddit
"Our goal is to beat the Europeans on their turf"
Like, *all* the Europeans? Including the AMG One, which recently set a lap time of 6:29? Because you definitely aren't beating that.
Cr4zyPi3t@reddit
While I also think the AMG One is a really impressive car, it costs almost 3.000.000€. So for fairness sake we should compare the GTD with cars such as the Porsche GT3RS, which is a bit cheaper and also did a sub-7.
Longjumping-Zone-615@reddit
No, the GT3RS has like 300hp less and is naturally aspirated. The 992 GT2RS is the true competition
BriarsandBrambles@reddit
No the GT3RS cost half a million with markup. The GTD is a GT3 fighter at it's price point.
tiagojpg@reddit
Small side note: from when I read GTD on these cars all i can think about is the Golf GTI diesel we get, the GTD. Oddly confusing haha.
beardy_bastard@reddit
Exactly! Why they used "D" which is universal sign for diesel (at least here in EU)? ;)
BriarsandBrambles@reddit
Grand Touring Daytona.
devildog25@reddit
Because it’s named after the racing class GTD in IMSA. Ford races the Mustang GT3 in IMSA in both the GTD and GTD Pro classes.
beardy_bastard@reddit
TIL, thanks
Short-Display-1659@reddit
I find it amusing that everyone is talking about the GTD and the ZR1 compared to the GT3.
The GTD and C8 ZR1 are obviously the latest top performing cars they have produced. The first being supercharged and the later having twin turbos.
The 992 GT3 /Rs has neither. The quickest Ring time Porsche 911 mode is the GT2 RS which has yet to be released in the 992 gen. The 991 GT2 RS was released in 2017 and lapped sub 6:48.
Chevy and Ford are making chasing a bar from 7 years that is going to be set higher next year when 992 GT2 RS is released.
Essentially my point here is that cars with turbos or superchargers hold an edge over cars without either. The GT3 has neither so if they really want to bench mark a 911 model, they should choose also compare to Porsches fastest trim as well.
221missile@reddit (OP)
Wrong. The quickest 911 around nurburgring is the current GT3RS which came out 2 years ago.
GT3RS proves this assertion isn’t true. Moreover, Chevy's GT3RS rival is also naturally aspirated. The Z06 is 6/10 of a second slower than the GT3RS around willow springs. Pretty good for a car that's less than half the price. GM's current lineup definitely has the upper hand in terms of performance compared to the Germans. The CT5 V Blackwing, for example, is faster around a track than the significantly more expensive M5 CS. The new M5 is porky as fuck. So, there's no way that will beat the blackwing.
Longjumping-Zone-615@reddit
The 992 GT2RS will prove his assertion true, if you like it or not. It will be a lot faster than the GT3RS, because 300 additional hp is going to be substantial. As much as I love naturally aspired cars, thats just the truth. And as much as I like the new ZR1 and GTD, setting the GT3RS as the benchmark is not justified, because it has 300-500hp less and the 992 GT2RS will soon be the new benchmark form Germany anyways. Setting the considerably less powerful GT3RS as the benchmark is a disservice to the GTD, because that would imply that it needs 300hp more to beat the competition.
Fuckoalamazing@reddit
Dude why would you counter this argument with false statements, you can literally look up Porsche’s lap times with one keystroke.
GT2 RS (2017) - 6:47.3 GT3 RS (2022) - 6:49.328
That’s such a dumb take, especially since Short-Display-1659’s thesis about forced induction is also correct
221missile@reddit (OP)
https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a41602013/2023-porsche-911-gt3-rs-nurburgring/
Impulse33@reddit
If you read the article you'll notice the quicker laptime you are referencing is without the t13 straight. Fucko's times are correct if comparing the "official" layouts.
Comprehensive_Dog651@reddit
Different track configurations. GT3RS time is for the full 20.8km track length
srtftw@reddit
Each of these cars are completely different. Just let the automotive giants do battle.
GT2 - AWD, NA, ME ZR1 - RWD, TC, ME GTD - RWD, SC, FE
ALL IMPRESSIVE AND ENTERTAINING
TS040@reddit
the GT2 is turbocharged and RWD, not N/A and AWD
Mitchlowe@reddit
I love it but wish for that price they could at least give us a new body/design. It’s still a mustang. They should have started fresh with new chassis and model.
offtheboat@reddit
I don’t get it’s… didn’t they cancel the attempt due to weather??? What are they advertising here?
True2this@reddit
Well, there’s a section where they say “no hiding from failure” so that’s covering that base
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
They did cancel, but it doesn’t mean they not redoing it.
ScotchyMcScotchface@reddit
Or that they’d already done it at that point…
blue_bomber697@reddit
They did cancel it and currently do not have a sub-7 Ring lap. I think they are just trying to keep hype going as best as they can for the GTD since the new ZR1 has really taken the spotlight away from it.
MusicMan7969@reddit
For that money, give me a new Vette ZR1.
BAQ717@reddit
Is this subreddit ever happy? Geez people, go outside and touch grass.
Odd-Refrigerator-425@reddit
Everything's amazing and nobody is happy
The_Don_Papi@reddit
It being Ford, I’ll believe it when I see it. I don’t see one being able to last through a track day without an insane overhaul to get rid of a lot of low quality Ford parts.
ImTalkingGibberish@reddit
Sub 7 for a cheaper car is a good thing, why are people so flipped?
It proves a point, Mustangs are fast but horrible to control so having a good lap time shows they’ve improved handling.
And should be cheaper than a Porsche right?
Tw0Rails@reddit
It means they put great tires and got a good driver.
iMpRoVeD hAnDlInG
10000Didgeridoos@reddit
"Mustangs are horrible to control"
Did you post this comment from 2005?
Axt_@reddit
7 American minutes is faster than 7 European minutes, duh
gainzsti@reddit
The price is.... yeah... 300k usd ouch
Nellies_Daddy@reddit
“May become the first American company to build a production car that can lap the Nürburgring Nordschleife in less than seven minutes.”
They better post that time before the new Corvette ZR1 posts a time…..
42LSx@reddit
Ford? Those that said that they didn't care about Nürburgring Times and that "it's just marketing and a total free for all."? Curios.
mauijosh_87@reddit
This thing is a flop if it can’t beat the gt3. It honestly should beat the 3rs for the money.
mugdays@reddit
How is this the most downvoted comment? If this ends up being slower than a 911 GT3 (which is AT LEAST $100k cheaper), then it'll be a disappointment, performance-wise.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
It's certainly not a flop considering every single one is spoken for in advance, but it would certainly be disappointing to say the least.
dm117@reddit
It’s crazy how much hate this car is getting. I can’t wait to see an American car get a sub 7 personally. I feel like everyone’s getting too caught up in these numbers when honestly it’s just an amazing car. If this was European or JDM people here would love it.
xlb250@reddit
The main purpose is marketing not profit. Will be a flop if they can't even beat a GT3.
ReducedToMereFilth@reddit
Ford can sell all of them, but if the hype doesn’t keep the prices up, it could be considered a “flop” long term in very, very, broad terms. Not a flop for Ford, but a flop for the buyers and the secondary market.
Educational_Age_1333@reddit
Think he is referring to flop as far as its performance not whether or not they sold.
bindermichi@reddit
6:59:90 incoming
ParappaTheWrapperr@reddit
I can do that in Gran Turismo
theColeHardTruth@reddit
Badass, can't wait to see what they can manage with this thing!