It is not only because of tailgaters, people who do not tailgate use their brakes more than tailgaters (who are more likely to change lanes or even swerve onto the shoulder to avoid collision), and it is the brake lights that trigger a chain reaction behind that leads to systemwide slowing.

If, however, it were because of tailgaters, it would not change the fact that it is It is fact. Whining about 'if onlies' can't change the fact that it is so, and must be dealt with as it exists, not as we would like it to be.

Assuredly, changing lanes causes congestion. You don't have to like it.

[-]

Shatophiliac@reddit

Source: “trust me bro”

[-]

Hybrid072@reddit

Actually cited my source, dipshit. Unlike someone full of more misplaced anger at tailgaters than facts.

"Hey guys, maybe if we wish really hard, we can have no traffic because everyone follows at 3 seconds!!"

[-]

Shatophiliac@reddit

I don’t see a source cited, just you calling everyone “dumbass” and “dipshit” like a petulant child.

[-]

Hybrid072@reddit

Well it's there quite clearly, so those epithets seem pretty accurate.

Is it more childish to say insulting things while pretending to be civil, or to just come right out and call a person what they are?

If that happened in California, those cops were flat wrong. The speed limit is the posted number OR the speed of the flow of traffic, whichever is faster, by law. That you were supposedly 'setting' that flow speed is immaterial, if the other cars were pacing you, you were in the right.

Now, alone on the road, same speed, light you up and good night.

Only place where that doesn't apply is in the 15 miles of the 101 north and south of King City, where the CHP station depends on the shriveling ghost town for existence and the local judges are known to be complicit in the municipal-funding-by-speed-trap budget plan. Anywhere civilized along the 1, 101 or 5 corridors, or any of the even numbered freeways and you'd have had a case to make.

[-]

Mr_MegaAfroMan@reddit

Not California. Midwest. Best as I can tell, speed limit is the limit, no legal exceptions. Although there is still vague laws about not impeding the flow of traffic, they don't seem to supercede the posted speed limits.

[-]

Hybrid072@reddit

Literally every single state has different laws. That's how the 10th amendment works, bud. In California, as I said, the speed limit is whatever speed multiple people are driving on the same piece of road OR the posted number, whichever is higher.

[-]

Mr_MegaAfroMan@reddit

Yes. I am aware every state has different laws.

I am not in California bud. As such your rant, and weird aggression here are irrelevant to my comment.

[-]

Robie_John@reddit

It is so dangerous that some countries outlaw it.

[-]

Hybrid072@reddit

Correlation and causation friend.

[-]

Robie_John@reddit

Not your friend. You are clueless.

[-]

Dumbass.

Slower than the normal speed of traffic. If you are going 'faster than most cars in the right lane,' do you have a duty to move right just because someone driving 85 mph in a 65 zone, or even 70 comes up behind you...?

The ACTUAL rule in California is, of course, in the rule booklet some of us actually read when we have business in the DMV. It clearly states that pass-on-the-left is NOT a rule, and that fastlanes are a recommendation.

Like, it goes out of its way to say it.

Dumbass.

Also, if you're going to go to the originators...what the FLYING FU@& are you talking about?!?

The first FREEWAY, anywhere in the universe, runs between downtown Los Angeles and Pasadena.

Dumbass.

[-]

supern8ural@reddit

The first superhighways were the German Autobahn system and the Pennsylvania Turnpike. And they're both more pleasant to drive on than any highway in Maryland where KRETP is not the law nor common practice.

If you don't recognize the superiority of German driving practice both in lack of frustration and statistical safety, there's nothing to talk about.

[-]

You call me a dumbass when you assert that it's more pleasant to drive in notoriously congested California than a mostly rural Interstate highway or the German Autobahnen? And then assert that it's OK top not keep right except to pass? Neither one of those things are true in any way, shape, or form and in fact strict enforcement of and compliance with KRETP is exactly why Germany is pretty much the driving standard of the world despite the Autobahnen actually originally being narrower, having tighter curves allowed, etc. than what became the American Interstates. It's both the roads *and the drivers* that make driving more pleasant.

All you've done in this thread is made me convinced that a) you haven't a clue what the fuck you're talking about b) you're a shining example of the Dunning-Kruger effect and c) if I continue engaging with you, my brain cells are going to begin committing seppuku.

Good day, sir.

[-]

supern8ural@reddit

Also, just to show you how wrong you are

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsautobahn

"The specifications for the autobahns were based on those developed by HAFRABA. They were designed as four-lane limited-access highways, with a central median, road surfaces in each direction normally 24 m (79 ft) wide (widened on some major segments immediately before the war), surfaced in concrete. There were no shoulders. In addition to having no intersections, the route was to limit grades as much as possible, to no more than 8%, and curves were to fall within a range of 600 m (660 yd) and 1,800 m (2,000 yd) in radius.^([70]) One segment just south of Dessau of roughly 10 km in length was designed for speed record attempts (the Dessauer Rennstrecke) and had six lanes in each direction.^([71])"

so, other than not having shoulders, how is that different from your definition of "freeway"?

from https://www.paturnpike.com/about-us/turnpike-history/interactive-timeline click on the second picture ("The 1940s: Construction")

"In a span of 23 months 160-miles of pavement was poured to construct the original Turnpike. The roadway also consisted of:
200 feet of right-a-way
12 foot-wide concrete traffic lanes
10 feet of median strip
A total roadway width of 78 feet
A maximum grade of 3 percent and curvature of 6 degrees
Limited access with 1,200 foot long entrance and exit ramps

You cannot find cross streets, driveways, traffic signals or railroad crossings anywhere on the PA Turnpike."

Oddly that statement is not true anymore as it is somewhat notoriously duplexed with US 30 in Breezewood for a short stretch and there were at least two traffic lights the last time I drove that way (I usually prefer to take I-68 through Morgantown instead even though it's longer to get to Pittsburgh) but that's an anomaly.

So again, how is that different from your definition of "freeway"?

I’ve driven plenty through every state and most people drive like sane individuals. Especially rural, they tend to not always be in an extreme hurry. The worst speeders I’ve seen by far have been in cities during Covid when the highway was empty.

[-]

SomethingClever42068@reddit

I live in NYS.... Had to work all through COVID and would routinely pass cops sitting in the highway turnarounds while going 85-90 and didn't have a problem.

Got pulled over in late 2021-early 2022 for going 72 in a 55 and I was grumpy with the cop.... "That's only like 7 mph over the limit!!!!"

That's when I knew the good times were coming to an end.

Court was still all remote so the DA just sent out a letter saying "check this box if you want it reduced to failure to obey a traffic device and pay 150 bucks"

I really miss only passing 1 or 2 cars on my half hour commute.

[-]

Aendn@reddit

72 in a 55 is 17 over....

[-]

SomethingClever42068@reddit

COVID etiquette dictated every speed limit actually meant 10 over what was posted.

I realized it was 17 over after I thought about it, but I was just so accustomed to 45 means 55, 55 means 65, and 65 means 85 during lockdowns.

Early lockdown nobody knew just how bad it could be, so cops wouldn't pull you over unless you did something absurdly dumb directly in front of them and even then it was a 50/50 chance.

I also planned on hiding any masks I had and coughing a ton while they were walking on the off chance they were worried about it.

[-]

moto_everything@reddit

Man I miss those days. I made it everywhere so much faster. For like 3 years you could do 100+ on the highways in most of the US and it worked great. (Or 150+ on a bike) Speed limits are too low for modern cars.

[-]

SomethingClever42068@reddit

speed limits are too low for modern cars.

For what the cars are capable of yeah, but every year the drivers get noticeably worse and worse.

More electronic nannies to save the stupid people.

Way more phone usage than 5-10 years ago. Especially with the stupid vent phone mounts that have it right up near your line of sight. "I'm not holding it so I can't get a ticket" despite taking 5-10 seconds to realize the light turned green while scrolling.

The toasterfication of cars and crossovers. Everyone just wants a boring, reliable car that gets them back and forth from work....

They've become just another appliance people have to have. It's something people want to be good enough at to use, but don't care about being great at.

Also, do you know how much fucking money speeding tickets bring in? I'm honestly surprised the states aren't trying to lower them everywhere to leave us with less free time and less disposable income.

My state just started using the speed camera systems in construction zones and it's a joke.

150 bucks you have to send to a private company out of state. No points on your license, no increase in penalties, pretty sure it says it's not even counted as a moving violation.

It's just cheap enough that people won't fight the legality of it. Send this company some money or the state will void your registration on the car you need to use to get to work.

Rant over, thank you for coming to my ted talk.

[-]

Impossible_Tonight81@reddit

I'm really curious if they had a typo or legit did the math wrong.

[-]

SomethingClever42068@reddit

During that period I had gotten so accustomed to the very little traffic there was always doing at least 10 over and drawing no interest whatsoever from cops

Early on during the lockdowns I would pass cops doing 20 over (out in the country or on the highway, I always keep it at 35-37 max in 30 mph zones) and they just didn't care.

I was legitimately upset that he pulled me over for a measley 72 when six months before that you could cruise by at 80 and get a have.

After I thought about it for a second I realized it was indeed a good amount over but my first thought was "I was barely even speeding"

[-]

Morak73@reddit

Sounds like an attempt to Jedi Mind Trick the cop.

You'd be amazed how many people would have to pull out the calculator app

[-]

Awesome_hospital@reddit

Driving in Montana is still an experience

the_lamou@reddit

Some major cities in Asia function perfectly adequately with zero traffic control devices (i.e. no stop signs, no traffic lights, etc.).

"Function perfectly" is a weird way to say "massively high road fatality rates, and that's just the public numbers that they bother reporting on."

German highways function just fine without speed limits in many areas

One highway, and increasingly fewer and fewer areas. The unrestricted section of the Autobahn has been shrinking steadily as the capabilities of modern cars exceed both the capabilities of the road and of drivers.

That last part doesn't get enough attention. The human brain was not built to maintain control at 60MPH, let alone 160. Frankly, the fact that we can generally function at highway speeds just shows how absolutely stupidly over-engineered most of our senses and mental abilities are. But the reality is that processing ability drops of massively at speed — your eyes can't focus on things coming past them at 90 MPH, and your brain can't really register it, either. As long as things move at relatively the same speed, it's not a major issue. But if you have people doing whatever, shit breaks down.

[-]

Z_Clipped@reddit

"Function perfectly" is a weird way to say "massively high road fatality rates, and that's just the public numbers that they bother reporting on."

I lived for a year in a city of 150,000 in the central Philippines. There was exactly one traffic accident there in the year I was there. It involved a moped getting hit by a car on a college campus while crossing a street. Nobody was seriously hurt. I know it was the only accident, because it made the local paper. The article noted that it was the first accident in 3 years.

Meanwhile, the average travel speed through that city was about the same as an American city of similar size (Bridgeport CT, Charleston, SC, or Jackson, MS for example). Here's a pic of an intersection with no lights or stop signs functioning just fine (because, as opposed to US drivers, the people recognize that there are human beings in the other vehicles, and act accordingly.) Here's another example of typical traffic density. Here's another.

I drove my own vehicle (an old Willys jeep) there several times a week, and I rode in taxis every day. Trust me. It wasn't carnage. It worked fine.

One highway, and increasingly fewer and fewer areas.

That's misleading. It's 50% of their entire national highway network, with another 20% only having limits based on conditions. So that's between 4000 and 5600 miles of roadway with no permanent speed limit. That's enough highway to go from Philadelphia to San Francisco and back again.

That last part doesn't get enough attention. The human brain was not built to maintain control at 60MPH, let alone 160.

I race cars and motorcycles, so I'm well aware that they can be controlled at speeds over 160mph. I've spent hundreds of hours trading paint at those speeds with one knee dragging on the road, so I don't really buy this claim that we just "can't process" highway driving.

I think people are capable of far more than we give them credit for. I also think the auto industry has been working for decades on technologies that remove people's need to focus on driving in the name of making vehicles "safer", instead of designing vehicles that encourage them to pay attention to what they're doing. The word "infotainment" alone makes me want to punch faces.

I own a 6-speed manual sports car. It takes a lot of attention to operate, so I'm always hyper aware of my surroundings. I take curves too fast, and I occasionally get sideways when there's nobody around and I feel it's safe to be stupid. I've never been in an accident.

My wife's EV practically drives itself. The thing will automatically follow traffic at a set distance, keep you in your lane, warn you of obstacles, and even panic brake for you in an emergency. It has a fucking HUD, for chistssakes. The only way I can stand to drive it is by turning all of those aids off, putting it in "sport" mode (to tighten the steering and throttle response) and defeating the traction control. Otherwise, it's mind-numbingly boring. I'm not at ALL surprised that people are spending more and more time on their phones behind the wheel. Driving is FAR too easy in the US. Our lanes are too wide. Our cars are too big and too easy to drive. And our culture is broken.

[-]

the_lamou@reddit

That's misleading. It's 50% of their entire national highway network, with another 20% only having limits based on conditions. So that's between 4000 and 5600 miles of roadway with no permanent speed limit.

Is it, though? It's been decreasing for years, and lately there have been multiple attempts to end the unlimited policy entirely which were only defeated thanks to the German hard right claiming that it's part of their national heritage. Largely because they recognize that the large speed differentials cause many people who would be much safer on the highway to instead take more dangerous surface streets.

I race cars and motorcycles, so I'm well aware that they can be controlled at speeds over 160mph. I've spent hundreds of hours trading paint at those speeds with one knee dragging on the road, so I don't really buy this claim that we just "can't process" highway driving.

Hey, me, too! Unfortunately not so much anymore as I seem to have developed some kind of age-related motion sickness that I'm trying to deal with. And cars, not bikes — somehow I skipped bikes entirely. Actually, a number of people in this sub either race cars or have raced cars.

But as you yourself accurately point out, it takes hundreds of hours of practice to get to the point where you're not a menace on the track. You should know what a totally green group at an HPDE looks like: there's one or two that do pretty well due to natural talent, a couple that do ok, and then a bunch who will run you off the track if the instructor doesn't scream at them in time because they literally can't see anything but a small patch of road in front of them.

And those are people who care about driving enough to pay hundreds of dollars to participate in a controlled driving session on a track. The kind of situational awareness required to navigate safely at speed requires training — you yourself said you've been doing it for hundreds of hours. It's not something your body was built for, but you force it into shape.

When I was in high school, I participated in the high jump — I wasn't great at it, but I managed to clear my own height and then a little bit eventually. That's not something the average person can do, but with training and basically breaking and rebuilding your leg and core muscles plus every single instinct about how to jump, it's possible to get there. But you wouldn't want to base policy on the ability to clear 6' by jumping. Because it's not something people are designed for, and it's not something most people will ever be able to do.

Trust me. It wasn't carnage. It worked fine.

Roadway accidents are the leading cause of death in the Philippines for people aged 15-29, and one of the leading causes of death for children. Traffic fatalities represent almost 2% of all deaths in the Philippines, and that figure is often criticized for being massively under-reported. In the US, by comparison, where we're almost universally acknowledged as being terrible drivers relative to other developed nations, that number is about 1%.

Look, I'm not entirely in disagreement with you. I speed. Sometimes by a lot. When I was younger I used to regularly drive long distances (800-1,200 miles at a time) for various reasons, and on plenty of those trips I would average 120+ on the highways once I was sure I was away from civilization. The closest I've ever come to accidentally dying, I was trying to hit vmax on an empty stretch of flat, straight highway in rural Mississippi in a sports car and clipped a joint in the road at give or take 170, leading to the longest half second of my life trying to maintain control. And once I caught my breath, I tried again, because it was completely empty and I could see for miles and the manual said I should be able to hit 190. I drive a manual shitbox from the 70's for fun daily for three seasons of the year, and the only reason it goes away in the winter is because the salt would cause it to disintegrate in mid-drive. I get it.

I also don't trust other drivers, and I don't think there's any way to fundamentally change American car/driving culture enough to make it feasible for us to exist happily in a 120MPH world. Because you are not the typical driver, and neither am I. And even if we were, it would still be a terrible idea because of the hilariously lax car safety regulations that allow someone with three misfiring cylinders, rusted-out CV joints, and an unsecured load to share a road with someone who runs through a quick vehicle inspection every time they go out for a drive. So while that's all true, I would rather we design our roads to encourage people in clapped-out fourth-hand Altimas with parts falling off to slow the fuck down.

[-]

That's a ridiculous take. Most of the US interstate system can be safely traveled at 100-130 by anyone in any average modern vehicle. You need to get out of the city lol

[-]

More fuel consumption, which means more emissions. Even if you have an EV it still might lead to more emissions, albeit less than a gas or diesel car.

[-]

_Nocturnalis@reddit

So your solution is more people driving for more time? To decrease emissions?

[-]

Abject_Concert7079@reddit

If people are driving the same distance, but slower, that means lower emissions. The reason 55 mph was chosen as the national speed limit was to reduce fuel consumption.

[-]

_Nocturnalis@reddit

With vastly different engines. Carb vs EFI vs DFI are all pretty radically different technologies. Fuel consumption isn't the same thing as emissions. And the double nickel was a stupid response to OPEC.

Many vehicles will have lower emissions at higher speeds. It all depends on how the vehicles are designed.

[-]

ShrewLlama@reddit

The most efficient speed for most cars is still around 45 - 55 mph.

It's more to do with wind resistance than engine rpms.

[-]

Can confirm CHP is so chill when you’re not a-hole. I go to some mountain roads where a lot of enthusiasts drive on weekend mornings. They don’t care if you do 10, 20, 30 over. But you do one single double yellow pass, you’re gone. That’s the right way.

I was told, in florida, by a fl state trooper that I shouldn't be in the left lane on the highway if I'm not going 80. I'm like the limit is 70...

So I switch lanes to let him pass.

Yup, my wife is American and when she was living there and I'd visit she's gunning down the interstate at 100 like it's normal.

It is normal. She still got tailgated.

[-]

Steeze_Schralper6968@reddit

I can relate to that feeling of "oh shit a cop" "oh wait I'm not going that fast" "oh shit I'm actually speeding" "oh shit I'm in the left lane in my pos and I'm not speeding enough, and he probably just wants me to move over"

[-]

I think it's more of a culteral-societal issue that the roads are so deadly. Half of the people I drive by have a phone in their hand or doing their makeup driving 60+Mph while flying past traffic and cutting into the line of traffic at the last moment.

My kids go to school in a township surrounded by 55mph country roads. We're talking corn and soy as far as the eyes can see. I'll go 60-70 on an empty road and 55-60 when there is oncoming or when passing the sparse residences with a small setback. Inside the township is 25, because of pedestrians including children. People will cruise control 54 through the corn fields and turn off cruise as they blast past the blinking speed sign coasting down with sidewalks and almost 0 setback homes on both sides.

[-]

-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

I refuse to accept that 115 people dying every single day is considered "safe".

[-]

AMSolar@reddit

U.S. Share of Global Road Deaths: 3%

U.S. Share of Global Population: 4.2%

India's Share of Global Road Deaths: 22%.

India's Share of World Population: 17.9%.

Further - An individual in Russia is 1.45 times more likely to die in a road traffic accident compared to someone in the United States.

Now if you say "roads are unsafe" I'm right there with you. But my beef is primarily with the framing of the US as particularly unsafe which is not true.

For every country that has roads slightly safer than the US there are several that have things far worse.

Us immigrants often don't like certain things in the US but what almost all universally agree on is just how much safer and easier it is to drive in the US vs our home countries.

A baby can drive here. It absolutely can't in our home countries.

And a special role goes towards road design which is very forgiving. It's significantly easier to do, very obviously so.

There's a joke about it - a 3 year experience of driving in US equals 1 year of driving in Russia or two weeks in the Philippines.

Because your decision making skills, your reaction is being tested every single minute there. Where in the US you just set cruise control and you're good.

[-]

They also extensively use bikes for getting around. Things are different when you're not auto-dependent.

[-]

bennyyyboyyyyyyyy@reddit

Yeah I’ve been there, pretty country.

We have about forty cities with a larger metro population than their biggest city spread out over a country about 240x bigger by area. With people and goods/services constantly traveling all over the country.

just so incomparable especially from a travel standpoint its laughable.

[-]

longtimerlance@reddit

That won't work when a single area has 100K+ cars try to pass through per day.

[-]

bennyyyboyyyyyyyy@reddit

Dude they always try to apply some logic to massive cities from a place with no population. Its peak reddit brainrot

[-]

longtimerlance@reddit

By miles driven, the UK is 6x more deadly.

[-]

I've only heard (and seen) them use Interstates for travel.

[-]

Normal_Tree_2247@reddit

the US isn't even in the top 100 deadliest in terms of traffic deaths because most people have cars and they drive everywhere, even if it's less than a mile away.

. . . cars are much better at protecting the people inside the vehicle during collisions than they used to be, but they are getting bigger every year, and drivers are more distracted than ever

[-]

Skeptix_907@reddit

Excessive speed is a factor in 1/3 of fatal crashes in the US.

Speed does kill

[-]

deezgiorno@reddit

This dude… “Speed doesnt kill. It’s the sudden deceleration as you crash into a tree that kills.” No shit dude

[-]

Desperate_Bowler3120@reddit

It’s a paraphrased Jeremy Clarkson quote.

[-]

livetheleague@reddit

I speed sometimes because of the configuration of the traffic lights. The lights in my area are designed so that you are guarateed to hit them if you do the speed limit. If you go slightly faster than the limit as in 5 to 10 miles over and you hit it right, I can miss about 5 lights that hit if I were doing the speed limit.

I started doing this while I was working at a retail store. I got off around 9:30 and some night not until 11 and I would come off the highway only to hit every single traffic light home. All I wanted to do was go home and to bed, but no, I had to sit at every single traffic light and I always hit them as they turned red. It was so frustrating.

I don't work there anymore, may that store burn with the manager inside.

[-]

dmbdvds@reddit

It was my impression speed limits were put into place to reduce gas consumption

[-]

fitfulbrain@reddit

Amusing. What's the alternative? Should we design roads to force drivers to drive not too high above the limit or else?

Congestion is the main problem, and it directly affects the economy. If the traffic is bad, no one will go to your shop. I don't believe you can slow the traffic to the speed limit without further slowing the traffic during congestion.

There will always be criminals and drunk drivers. Do you want them dead if they drive over the limit? There are ambulances and fire engines too.

The only road design I can think of that I support is roundabouts. A rogue driver can't take the chance and just run over the intersection at high speed. But of course, it's only applicable to very limited spots.

Do you deliberately add bends to the freeway? When the rare bend occurs, when everybody is going over 80 mph while the slower ones are at over 70, many start going off the lane markers. Is a non-forgiving design a dead wish? On the other hand, I believe (with support) that American freeways are designed to be safe at over 120 mph. You can safely stay in the middle of the carpool lane all the way.

The answer I believe is technology that we already have. The speed camera is one form of it. Since everybody has a phone and radar detectors are affordable, you will get a warning and slow down.

Switching to electronic road signs is a daunting task but Europe is committed. In the meantime, turn on Waze and set it to give you a beep when you are over 10 mph. You don't need to use it for navigation and the limits are rather updated with a network of volunteers.

[-]

-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

Amusing. What's the alternative? Should we design roads to force drivers to drive not too high above the limit or else?

Actually yes, and we're already doing it... Have you ever heard of traffic calming? It's done all over the world, the US is just really far behind.

Congestion is the main problem, and it directly affects the economy. If the traffic is bad, no one will go to your shop. I don't believe you can slow the traffic to the speed limit without further slowing the traffic during congestion.

So I'm assuming you mean that in car-dependent areas no one will go to a business if there's too much traffic. I assure you that this is not the case, look at any city with gridlock traffic, I'm sure you'll find some businesses.

There will always be criminals and drunk drivers. Do you want them dead if they drive over the limit? There are ambulances and fire engines too.

I'm confused by this. Through my post I'm saying 2 things, people speed naturally because of road design, and this is the root cause for deadly crashes. I don't want anyone dead, quite the opposite. If road designs were changed to move cars more slowly, less people would die. Speed with many conflict points=bad. About ambulances and fire trucks, I assume you think that they would be stuck in slower moving traffic, well 2 ideas would help this, and many cities are doing this already, bus/bike/emergency only lanes. And ironically, if you slow down vehicle speeds through infrastructure, you'll get less crashes and therefore less need for ambulances and fire trucks. Most calls in US are vehicle related!

The only road design I can think of that I support is roundabouts. A rogue driver can't take the chance and just run over the intersection at high speed. But of course, it's only applicable to very limited spots.

Roundabouts good

Do you deliberately add bends to the freeway? When the rare bend occurs, when everybody is going over 80 mph while the slower ones are at over 70, many start going off the lane markers. Is a non-forgiving design a dead wish? On the other hand, I believe (with support) that American freeways are designed to be safe at over 120 mph. You can safely stay in the middle of the carpool lane all the way.

Forgiving design works very well on freeways because there aren't a lot of conflict points. My post is about local roads where this design enables speeding and distracted driving, hence 40k dead people every year in the US.

Check out this video on speed limits and how traffic calming helps to reduce crashes/deaths:https://youtu.be/JRbnBc-97Ps?si=1CcnWI57by6jU0-u

[-]

fitfulbrain@reddit

"American roads are designed for much higher speed than the posted limit."

I looked up traffic calming before my last post. May I ask again what's the alternative. Everything on the list are not practical in America.

In CA we may still have the law that for every five years we have to do a survey and set the limit to the speed where most people drive.

The video mention pedestrian in the first 10 seconds making it irrelevant to the discussion.

[-]

-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

But pedestrians are very relevant to the discussions because they are the most vulnerable out on the roads. They make up a decent amount of road deaths, over 17%, that's 6,800 people, every year. Traffic calming is super effective at slowing down speeds, and many times it can be done for very low costs. The US isn't special, cities here are applying these designs right now. An excellent calming measure is repurposing car lanes for bike/bus lanes. The presence of pedestrians and bicyclists on the road (protected by barriers of course) naturally slows down drivers. It's called optical narrowing. I agree that it's tough on larger roadways like arterials and many collectors, but it can work again through lane repurposing and narrowing.

I'm glad you understand how forgiving design works! It's super easy to speed without realizing it on most roads. About it being more about money, I think it's more that cities aren't even realizing that their road designers/engineers are what's killing people. For so many decades we've been blaming drivers for not following laws, when they are literally incentivizing us to speed through their designs. In my mind, the engineers are to blame.

nmmOliviaR@reddit

I have a personal road that narrows which people not only blatantly ignore, but for some reason do the REVERSE of the speed limits posted.

They come in to this road when it has a speed limit of 45, and they do about 35, rather slow and everyone's all bunched up and annoyed. But, and this is the part that gets me, they get to the part where the limit gets reduced to 35, and all of a sudden they decide to go 45 and above.

I often drive on that road every day since the other ones have annoying traffic lights so clearly these people are annoyed by them too but they do this reverse uno thing with how the limits are and it boggles my mind.

[-]

Intrepid-Love3829@reddit

Like its one thing to always go below the speed limit. Which is dangerous and pisses me off. But when they are inconstant like that?? Idek whats going on in someones mind. It makes no sense.

[-]

spinnyride@reddit

I’ve seen this on roads outside of cities and towns, limit will be 55 and I’ll be stuck behind someone doing 45. Speed limit drops to 35 or 30 entering town and they continue going 45 or I’ve even seen someone speed up to 50 after the limit dropped by 20 mph. Makes no sense

[-]

No-Eagle-8@reddit

I saw this today actually. Someone pulled out infront of me on a country road so I had to lower my cruise control to 45. They had us going that speed all the way to town, where they suddenly pulled away from me and continued to pull further as the speed limit signs said to go slower. And since I use cruise control I knew for sure my speed was relatively consistent until I decreased to 35 and then 25.

But that formerly slow car? Way long gone ahead of me. What in the world.

[-]

ProtectionUnusual@reddit

For someone who has driven all over the world it’s crazy you didn’t notice something so glaringly obvious

[-]

666-3629@reddit

true, I love driving fast on narrow roads, it’s a lot of fun. Anyone can drive on a wide open road, the accelerator does all the work.

[-]

-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

Well I imagine that forgiving design is something that many road designers worldwide use, I just have the most context here in the states. Part of forgiving design is not just lane width, it also includes the way turns are designed to be sweeping, and limiting visual and physical barriers and interruptions.

[-]

RadishAcceptable5505@reddit

Yup, Murkia has a "Whatever! I do what I want!" mindset that's baked into the culture and it's absolutely stupid.

"But... doing that can get you killed. It's not safe."

"Whatever! I do what I want!"

[-]

NASAfan89@reddit

The government should just put hidden speed cameras all over the place. The reason people speed is because there is not enough enforcement of traffic laws, and even when cops actually pull speeders over... too many cops are lenient and give warnings instead of tickets. As a result, drivers think tickets are unlikely and worth the risk of speeding to get places a little faster.

Privacy is a legit concern people have, but we can address that with strong oversight, transparency, and laws that require data from speeding cameras is only used to ticket speeders and is not shared with anyone... only looked at by machines that automatically give out tickets based on the license plate detected by the camera..

[-]

Acting like going the speed limit vs going slightly over is not risky vs super risky is a ridiculous view.

-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

I would do nothing because forgiving design works well in the interstate highway system. The local roads where forgiving design elements were implemented is what has caused so many crashes. They applied wide lanes, buffers, shoulders, clear zones with pedestrians, bicyclists, entrances to commercial and residential. It's actually really interesting how deadly it became. There's even a term for these types of things: Stroads.

[-]

Gallop67@reddit

Not where I live…. At least not unless they were recently re-done. So many bumps, cracks, and uneven surfaces that going about 85-90 feels like a death wish

[-]

-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

Wow, sounds like your terrible road conditions are acting as traffic calming measures.

[-]

Gallop67@reddit

Yup, definitely wasn’t the case back in Phoenix. Man those roads were a blast to drive on

[-]

PandaMime_421@reddit

It makes sense, though, to design roads for worst case need, such as emergency vehicles, even if not intended to be used that way by every day traffic. I'd much rather a road be designed to handle much higher speeds so emergency vehicles can safely traverse them more quickly when necessary than hold emergency vehicles back by design intended to force slow-down.

It isn't the road design that's at fault, it's drivers who ignore posted speed limits.

[-]

-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

I agree that drivers are ignoring speed limits, but doesn't it feel a little crappy that road designers/engineers can put all the blame on drivers instead of designing something to account for human error? Reminds me of this meme. About emergency vehicles, those people are not trained to drive in the same way we are, they will go into oncoming traffic if they have to. Ironically a huge number of emergency calls are due to vehicle collisions, ones that could have been avoided if design speeds were slower. So by designing roadways for high speeds we are literally causing more crashes.

[-]

PandaMime_421@reddit

doesn't it feel a little crappy that road designers/engineers can put all the blame on drivers instead of designing something to account for human error?

We could un-pave all of the roads. It is much more difficult to go fast on dirt. The economy might break down, though, and school buses could have issues.

Maybe go back to horses and wagons?

Actually, we could just go back to having 50 horsepower engines in all of our cars. The fuel economy would be great.

[-]

-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

I prefer the dutch solution of getting most trips done by bike. Lose weight while you commute.

[-]

AddLightness1@reddit

I rode my bike to work during the summer. I have a pretty physical job and it was sometimes difficult to make it home. My route is 9 miles each way, but it's generally downhill to work and uphill to home. Started using an ebike for the assist back home and that was a lot better.

Right now, though, it's already in the low 40's when I go to work. In two weeks time it will be in the 30's and we will start to have freezing rain. 6-8 weeks and we will have snow and ice everywhere. Not great bike weather, I've tried it.

Every once in while I make a trip to the nearby city with family for shopping or visiting a restaurant. That's 50 miles. Haven't convinced anyone to ride a bike with me for that trip. I've done it before, but it was about 23 years ago and it certainly made for a long day.

[-]

_Nocturnalis@reddit

Are you saying you rode a century to go shopping and to a restaurant?

[-]

AddLightness1@reddit

Bravo! How did you discover the name of my bike??

[-]

The ebike was surprisingly capable...as long as you stand up. It's a cheaper one from Amazon, about $799, and it doesn't have much suspension or ruggedness. I was kinda seeing if it would break when I took it camping. Folding extra long frame and fat tires, it ended up being pleasant and climbed that hill in pedal-assist mode pretty well.

[-]

Sensitive-Cherry-398@reddit

My thoughts is it's just a case of over engineering. I've never considered it for roads but it's pretty usual throughout any manufacturing process.

[-]

mopeyy@reddit

My city has started putting a new kind of "speed bump" in residential areas.

It's literally just 3 skinny plastic pylons that force traffic through the gap between the pylons.

Works better than anything I've seen for safely slowing people down.

[-]

Temporary-District96@reddit

i explained to my ex comparing it to the fineprint or disclaimers of manufacturers and large corporations. they will give a disclaimer that the product is used explicitly under certain restrictive conditions and thus anything past that is user liability and they can wash their hands of 'product defect' or warranty claims.

also, i explained the speed limit is posted for the lowest common denominator OR the largest vehicle to use the road...which are mostly 18 wheelers. so for example, an interchange exit posted for 50kmh is so 18 wheelers do not exceed that and risk tipping over. conversely, a commuter car can easily go almost double that without skidding.

[-]

Medical-Effective-30@reddit

/u/JoeCensored

I'm going 10 over, not exactly camping, geez.

You are camping. If you're not passing, GTFO the passing lanes. Passing lanes are for executing a pass. That's it. You could be going 100 over. Speed over posted maximum is irrelevant. You are still a left lane camper.

[-]

Glassfern@reddit

Nevermind how many cities are dropping limits down to 25mph when the roads were previously 45mph and no design changes have been made except the roll away speed cameras and flashers.

[-]

-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

Yeah that’s not great, road design speed should match the posted. I think they’re trying to put more responsibility on drivers, but it’s a backwards way to do it.

[-]

purplishfluffyclouds@reddit

All it serves is for people to get more tickets. More tickets - more money to the city.

Proper traffic calming measures are expensive. No one gets it, that that's the only real way to slow down traffic, and everyone drives a car and doesn't want it. So we're left with "let's just post a bunch of signs on this stroad and expect people to slow down." It doesn't work that way.

They design roads the same way they design freeways and expect people not to drive like they're on the freeway. It's stupid.

[-]

rrognlie@reddit

We lived in Germany for 3 years. I miss the autobahn. It was so much fun! (unless you encountered a Stau [a traffic jam])

[-]

envoy_ace@reddit

How about the 55 mph speed limit was due to an oil embargo as a means of reducing consumption.

[-]

Melvin0827@reddit

The roads aren't "deadly".

Speed limits are artificially reduced due to the gas shortage in the '70's.

Zerolinar@reddit

Oh god, this is a rabbit hole.

The first thing that always springs to mind is how we design city roads very... well, racially. Go to Beverly Hills and you'll find angled roads, gentle curves, a subdivisions that reduce or slow traffic. Then go to Watts-Compton and every residential street is a long, uninterrupted shortcut. I was training a paratransit crew for the city and we blew right through a practically invisible stop sign on a 40 mph street lined with houses. It was insane.

It's no wonder we set up traffic cameras with a for-profit company and then shut them off immediately because if you want to make money, you thus have to set up speed traps in predominantly black neighborhoods (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/why-automated-speed-cameras-disproportionately-affect-black-and-brown-drivers)

Second, it's fun when you find out how we develop speed limits using, among other things, the 85th percentile rule. (https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2020/7/24/understanding-the-85th-percentile-speed)

Key point is up top: "The assumption underlying the 85th percentile speed is that most drivers will operate their vehicle at speeds they perceive to be safe. Speed limits set above or below the 85th percentile speed will create unsafe conditions due to speed differential as some driver adhere strictly to the law while others drive the naturally-induced speed."

It's another case of stupidly tailoring the culture around behavior rather than attempting to engender a safer culture around driving in the first place.

[-]

Impossible-Wear5482@reddit

I don't think that's true at all.

People usually speed because they're idiots.

[-]

That's awesome. But I don't think it would be possible here? Nowhere to pass. Windy roads, lots of hills.

[-]

user08182019@reddit

I know it sounds stupid but I got a “Please do not tailgate” bumper sticker and it actually does significantly reduce the number of people who do that.

[-]

zacmobile@reddit

Same, where I live I'll often get behind someone going 10 under but I couldn't care less, I just keep a 5 second space and enjoy the ride. It really doesn't make a significant difference to travel time when you're only going 30 minutes away.

[-]

morallycorruptgirl@reddit

That makes sense. There is a route of back roads I take every once in awhile where there is a big wide 55mph road with banked curves, & I drive ~70 through that road. Then it turns on to a much skinnier, less forgiving curvier road that is more residential so I drive 50 in a 45.

[-]

H0SS_AGAINST@reddit

They literally monitor traffic speeds then set the limit so that a certain percentage are breaking the (civil) law.

Malashock@reddit

Insurance companies pay insane amounts of money to lobby to keep speed limits artificially low on this country. You mean another thing where profits come before logic and common sense? America baby! Land of the free corporation.

[-]

jabber1990@reddit

No people speed because they have poor Self-discipline and think rules don't apply to them

[-]

Girl_Gamer_BathWater@reddit

Total lurker here and don't drive. America has "traffic engineers." We don't fix traffic by discouraging or even offering another option. To fix traffic we allow the car to move fast and freely so less backup like making a water pipe bigger. What we need and are getting are urban planners.

Sorry, I meant on non-highway roads.

[-]

LucidThot@reddit

Yeah, couple reasons non highway at least what I've encountered.

US still allows all old cars to be on the road so we have reduced speed limits to "try" to accommodate for them. Some states don't even need inspections.
The US is HUGE so where there arent highways, there are very long windy roads through hills and again you have to travel a long distance, there are more strict speed limits for trucks on some of the single lane roads and passing sections.
If you're not in the city alot of wildlife causes bad accidents. Wel have alot of large animals here. Alot of roads don't have bike lanes as well so you'll have a cyclist on a 55mph single lane road.
Bad city design causes congestion. Alot of these cities have been just built on smaller streets and expanded very rapidly after many permanent structures were built. So there's not very much you can do to add lanes or roads to help congestion.

[-]

-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

Whoa, you think the US speed limits on normal roads are reduced? I've seen the opposite, 45mph seems to be the average limit in my area, but road designs are for 50mph+ This is in suburban/urban areas with low to medium density.

[-]

LucidThot@reddit

Yeah, MANY rural roads will have 2 speed limit signs usually 55mph and 45mph for trucks.

As for more suburban areas the "speeding kills" narrative at least around me gave the counties and districts more pull on local speed limits, I've seen at least 60 roads the past 4 years near me get reduced by 5-10mph usually 45s to 40s 40s to 35s and lower.

There's also extra laws about speed limits that have schools on it. Not school zones but the road itself. This combined with rural towns and suburban areas being close you can get a 55/45 that turns into a 35/25 over a bridge to a 25 school zone to a 45 to a 55 back to a 25 in the span of like a mile.

Also it really depends on the contractors who build the road and the cities/counties that maintain them. So sometimes you'll get really crappy pothole roads forever with constant roadwork. And other times you'll get like airplane tarmac.

[-]

RadishAcceptable5505@reddit

Apologies ahead of time, friend. Just FYI, "a lot" means many where "alot" isn't a word, and "allot" means to divide something up into portions.

[-]

do_you_like_waffles@reddit

People speed cuz they are in a hurry or they just like going fast. It doesn't matter how the road is designed or what the posted speed limit is, there's always that guy whose tryna qualify for nascar.

[-]

FungalBrew@reddit

If your doing 70 and the speed limit is 70, expect everybody to come zooming around you at 75-80. Generally cops don't ticket you until you exceed 10mph over the posted speed limit so the effective speed limit is 10mph over what's posted, particularly on highways. Its different in residential areas, you obey the posted speed limit when driving in places people live, local cops take that shit more seriously.

[-]

Plus the larger roads allow for larger vehicles to feel normal. A tahoe/expedition are fairly common and are just slightly shorter than a short bus.

[-]

Immediate-Shape-2957@reddit

Where did you learn this from?

[-]

Accomplished-Act8616@reddit

Semi’s getting on fast lane makes things deadly!