People usually speed because of road design

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Wolf0933@reddit

People usually speed because they're idiots and they have convinced themselves that getting to their destination 1 or 2 minutes early is worth putting their lives and other's lives at risk.

Individuals can be smart, but people as a group are fucking stupid as shit.

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Yeah I agree that group mentality can be dangerous, but this is more reason for engineers/designers to take more responsibility. If we know that people are going to make dumb mistakes, why enable easy driving through wide lanes, and sweeping turns with minimal visual/physical barriers.

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Wolf0933@reddit

Oh yes, definitely. Engineers have a responsibility to the public to design safe infrastructure, but people have a responsibility to their fellow human beings to be respectful for themselves and others. People should have to take the computer road test every 4 to 6 years after receiving their licenses. I bet 70% of the population would fail, and that would be wonderful. Take away more licenses.

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-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

If only something like that could get passed, many people would lose their licenses. I think government has just made it too damn easy to drive to where normal people on their way to work/school are dying because it's easy to pick up a phone while going 50mph+. You would think that they would enact some kind of "let's stop killing each other" law that changes engineering standards to force slower speeds, and more attention.

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robomassacre@reddit

Agreed about the phones, i feel like either the auto manufacturers, or the phone manufacturers should possibly make it so the phone is inoperable while the car is moving or something like that?

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koosley@reddit

I drive whatever speed I feel safe driving. Around me the highway goes from 75 to 60 to 55 within a span of a feel miles for no reason. When it's 75, most people keep to 75-80, when it's 55, people are going 55 to 80 which I'd argue is even more unsafe due to massive speed difference in the flow.

My inner city neighborhood road with cars on both sides and the tree cover canopy with enough room for less than 2 cars, I'm going 20. Your highway like blvds in the burbs with 35 mph speed limits, more people go 50

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Malashock@reddit

Insurance companies pay insane amounts of money to lobby to keep speed limits artificially low on this country. You mean another thing where profits come before logic and common sense? America baby! Land of the free corporation.

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jabber1990@reddit

No people speed because they have poor Self-discipline and think rules don't apply to them

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Girl_Gamer_BathWater@reddit

Total lurker here and don't drive. America has "traffic engineers." We don't fix traffic by discouraging or even offering another option. To fix traffic we allow the car to move fast and freely so less backup like making a water pipe bigger. What we need and are getting are urban planners.

As much as I hate cars and the system in place to enable them, this community at least is willing to improve or at least take pride in driving. To most there's just no other options. So thank you /r/driving, I appreciate you.

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AddLightness1@reddit

We could un-pave all of the roads. It is much more difficult to go fast on dirt. The economy might break down, though, and school buses could have issues.

Maybe go back to horses and wagons?

Actually, we could just go back to having 50 horsepower engines in all of our cars. The fuel economy would be great.

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-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

I prefer the dutch solution of getting most trips done by bike. Lose weight while you commute.

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AddLightness1@reddit

I rode my bike to work during the summer. I have a pretty physical job and it was sometimes difficult to make it home. My route is 9 miles each way, but it's generally downhill to work and uphill to home. Started using an ebike for the assist back home and that was a lot better.

Right now, though, it's already in the low 40's when I go to work. In two weeks time it will be in the 30's and we will start to have freezing rain. 6-8 weeks and we will have snow and ice everywhere. Not great bike weather, I've tried it.

Every once in while I make a trip to the nearby city with family for shopping or visiting a restaurant. That's 50 miles. Haven't convinced anyone to ride a bike with me for that trip. I've done it before, but it was about 23 years ago and it certainly made for a long day.

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_Nocturnalis@reddit

Are you saying you rode a century to go shopping and to a restaurant?

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AddLightness1@reddit

Bravo! How did you discover the name of my bike??

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_Nocturnalis@reddit

Well, Century is a common road biker term for riding 100 miles in a day. That isn't really my thing, but I know people who ride on the road(crazy people).

I prefer riding on dirt and up and down mountains personally. Well mountain like things near me.

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AddLightness1@reddit

Ah, I've learned a new thing. Thanks.

When I rode that trip, many years ago, it was more a matter of survival. I was unemployed, living in a car, and the alternator went out. There was a day labor place in the city that paid cash for odd jobs. It was a rough January, but I persevered.

I like going up and down mountains, too, seeking out unique views that you can't just drive a car up to. I have a preference for water features, be it waterfalls or lakes. I've hiked the trails and pushed the ebike up a small mountain, but I also enjoy taking a dual sport motorcycle like my KLR 650 on such adventures. Any one of them is a workout with a great reward, sometimes with a nice campfire at the end

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KJWeb8@reddit

I ride my bike every day, weather permitting, to work. I usually ride when it's above 30°, 30 round trip. I'm 62 years old, been doing this for 10 years with no noticable difference in my weight or health. Maybe because my bike is a Goldwing.

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AddLightness1@reddit

Very nice. I have an old Bridgestone bicycle, an ebike, a KLR 650, and a Concours. I've always loved bikes

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JoeCensored@reddit

In my opinion it was the national 55 mph speed limit which created a culture of speeding. It ended in 1995, partly because everyone routinely ignored it.

When speed limits were raised generally to 65-70, did people start suddenly respecting them? No, it just meant go 10+ mph faster, so 75-80.

Seriously, on Sunday I was going 75 mph in a 65 in Livermore CA on the freeway on Sunday. A highway patrol officer pulls up close behind me. I wasn't even the slightest concerned. He was just irritated that I wasn't going at least 80 mph. So I switch lanes to let him pass. Pretty typical.

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Stage_Party@reddit

Yup, my wife is American and when she was living there and I'd visit she's gunning down the interstate at 100 like it's normal.

It is normal. She still got tailgated.

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the_lamou@reddit

No, it just meant go 10+ mph faster, so 75-80.

One important caveat, though, is that relative to vehicle capability (that is, how fast a car can go while feeling safe,) speeds didn't increase by the same proportion as they were during the 55 limit days. People drove faster, but they didn't speed by the same percentage as they did on old 55 roads (again, accounting for cars just getting more capable and safer-feeling.)

The truth about speed limits is that people will always generally drive as fast as they feel comfortable driving. If a road is designed so that going 90+ feels totally fine (looking at you, Alligator Alley, Florida,) people will drive 90+. If a road is designed so that anytime over 70 feels sketchy or unsafe, they'll max out at 70. And we've known that road design is the most important way to control the flow of traffic for decades.

But instead of doing any of the simple things we could do to (shit, just periodically constricting the shoulder with some barriers close to the lanes will do it,) we're going to continue pretending like speeding is an individual failure instead of a systemic problem.

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_Nocturnalis@reddit

Speeding isn't inherently bad, though. If I'm driving at a speed that is reasonable for conditions, what's the issue?

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International-Ad3447@reddit

Yep tickets should be different based on volume of traffic at the time

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_Nocturnalis@reddit

I think that's reasonable. A 10 lane interstate where I haven't seen another car for over 10 miles is a pretty weird place to get pulled over going 6 over. That has happened to me.

I'd add weather conditions. Fog , rain, ice, and snow certainly change what is safe. Although the law is getting a bit complex, maybe use multipliers for conditions?

Although I'd prefer setting limits at what is actually the safe max speed and ticketing based on unsafe behaviors. Speeding reasonably is at like the bottom of the list of dangerous driving behaviors.

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International-Ad3447@reddit

Yep and the major speeding charges like reckless driving or stunt driving speeds should be raised to higher speeds when conditions are right and traffic is low or empty

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the_lamou@reddit

That's absolutely true, but individual drivers aren't terribly good at evaluating the safe speed for themselves. So you want to generally put some kind of limits in place.

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_Nocturnalis@reddit

They actually are pretty good at it. There is a way to set speed limits using 85% of drivers' speed on a road without speed limit signs. If 85% plus the percantage going 5 mph faster all decide for themselves what a safe speed is that's an awful lot of people doing it right.

I'm not arguing for no speed limits anywhere. Although I'd bet people would drive the same speeds they currently do if we did. Just set them at where most people drive and use them to catch the truly reckless people.

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edgmnt_net@reddit

The limits don't have much to do with the roads and conditions, though, not directly anyway. There are countries which routinely lower limits on certain roads simply in an attempt to lower accident stats. There may be something inherent about that road, there may be confounding factors, there really may be no meaningful relationship.

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the_lamou@reddit

I agree, and I make this point here regularly. But at the same time, I think we can all agree that the typical dingus on the road shouldn't be driving 90, or frankly even 85, ever, anywhere. At least not the ones in the US.

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Steeze_Schralper6968@reddit

I can relate to that feeling of "oh shit a cop" "oh wait I'm not going that fast" "oh shit I'm actually speeding" "oh shit I'm in the left lane in my pos and I'm not speeding enough, and he probably just wants me to move over"

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Any-Arm-7017@reddit

This just happened to me on my way home, i was doing 70 in the left lane (posted limit is 55) and moved out of the way so he could pass me lmao

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mdramsey@reddit

CHP has its moments, but by and large their mandate is maintaining the flow of traffic. 10-over in the East Bay isn't worth their effort a lot of the time...LOL. Up here in the Sacramento area, once you're out of the metro area and it opens up, it's pretty much a "reasonable and prudent" environment. I remember during covid lockdowns, reports of catching speeders exceeding 100MPH was up some astronomical amount. The roads were virtually empty...of course people were going to fly.

I remember when they dropped the double-nickel and Montana opted for "reasonable and prudent" until a couple folks creamed themselves after driving insane speeds, then the insurers chimed in. So, it's 80 in most areas. Of course, people exceed that too.

I'd like to see CHP Motorcycle officers start enforcing impeding the flow more, and looking for clowns holding their phones...

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Awesome_hospital@reddit

Driving in Montana is still an experience

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mdramsey@reddit

It really is. One time I was flying along and couldn't believe it when I missed an exit. It was 20 miles to the next one, and the center median was muddy with spring snow at the time...never made that mistake again...LOL

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SomethingClever42068@reddit

I live in NYS.... Had to work all through COVID and would routinely pass cops sitting in the highway turnarounds while going 85-90 and didn't have a problem.

Got pulled over in late 2021-early 2022 for going 72 in a 55 and I was grumpy with the cop.... "That's only like 7 mph over the limit!!!!"

That's when I knew the good times were coming to an end.

Court was still all remote so the DA just sent out a letter saying "check this box if you want it reduced to failure to obey a traffic device and pay 150 bucks"

I really miss only passing 1 or 2 cars on my half hour commute.

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Secondhand-Drunk@reddit

Dude, covid roads ruled. It was so eerie seeing not even a dozen cars on my way to work when there's usually thousands.

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mdramsey@reddit

Yep, I had regular drives up 99 into Sacramento that were awsome. Now everything is RTO and everyone forgot how to drive and I want them all to stay at home...

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Mammoth_Pack_6442@reddit

Definitely agree with you. They should be citing the left lane cruisers for aggressive driving. People need to keep right except to pass. Also, the phones need to be more aggressively enforced. Speeding isn't by itself necessarily a safety hazard.

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Secondhand-Drunk@reddit

I fucking wish cops would cite people going slow in the passing lane. Shit just irks me. Then there's the assholes that take 20 seconds to get up to 40. Like.. give it some gas! Goddamn.

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UtegRepublic@reddit

I don't know. I'm old enough to remember a time before the national 55 mph speed limit. Limits were 65 on regular highways, 70 on the freeways. Most people back then drove about 5-10 mph over the limit. People tend to drive at a speed that feels comfortable to them.

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mischief_ej1@reddit

Were you in the left lane and not passing ?

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teajay530@reddit

no, the cop was irritated that you were blocking the fast lane. you should move over for anybody going faster than you

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opaqueism@reddit

I was on i-95 down in sfl once when I spotted a marked unit from a city about 15-20 mins from where we were. He was going fasttt. I wanted to see what speed he was doing because I’m a nosey ass (and kinda hate how they pull over/fine/arrest people for doing exactly what they do themselves). So I gas it and get up to 112mph, which is where I see I’m starting to pass him. I reach 115mph and pass. I’m staring dead at him, like we locked eyes for a few seconds type shit while recording my speedometer doing 115 and panning over to him on my phone (not in a Karen ass way, my young and dumb self thought it was kinda cool and funny, for some stupid reason lmaoo).

He doesn’t do shit. I keep going anywhere between 105-120mph, somewhat weaving through cars but not at such close proximity where I’d be a dick (other than my choice of speed). He stays behind me, only passing in the right when he needed to pass someone going slower than him in the left, because you know, no one knows how to get the fuck over when they’re cruising in the left and someone, let alone a police officer, is trying to get by you (emergency or not) but I’m sure it’s because they have tunnel vision and have 0 clue what’s going on around them except for the vehicle or anything that’s within 30 feet from the hood of their car.

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fazelenin02@reddit

Switching lanes implies you are doing 75 in the left lane with the right lane open. That is really annoying, you should be over whenever you can be

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JoeCensored@reddit

Like 5 lanes, I was in the fast lane which was wide open, lane to my right was packed. I squeezed into it to let the CHP pass, then switched back to get some space back.

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Infinite-Fig4959@reddit

It’s pretty easy to keep tabs on the number on the dash and the numbers on the signs in my experience.

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Festering-Boyle@reddit

honestly i usually speed because of Rage Against the Machine

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misterphuzz@reddit

I'll considering how much traffic there is on American roads, and how relatively few deaths/serious injuries there are, I wouldn't consider American roads "deadly." Zillions of cars all over the place, and only a few bad things happen. Not exactly deserving of the "deadly" title.

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eron6000ad@reddit

Kind of the same method of conditioning drivers to ignore "construction zone" reduced speed limits. I have driven through so many with absolutely no work going on for weeks or months that I no longer give a thought to slowing down unless there is equipment moving about.

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HunterBravo1@reddit

If speed alone was what makes roads deadly, people would complain about Germany, not the US.

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UT_Miles@reddit

Does this shit really need to be debated to death on a weekly basis.

Low key, flow of traffic, go with it. This shit is pretty simple. If you don’t want to go with the flow of traffic, you know 90% of the people around you, which I’m not sure why you wouldn’t but okay, then get to the right lane.

I see more people going slower than everyone else than I do people who are trying to “weave” through traffic. That’s typically I’m driving 6-7 am and 4-5, so a little before peak rush hour but there’s still not a whole lot of room to maneuver. But people in the left lane will get a train going 5 MPH over most of the time.

But honestly, it’s really not that difficult. Is the person in front of you, and the ones in front of them going 80, well there you go. If you’re nervous/scared, okay sure (although why are you in the left lane that’s not adding up for me personally) you can literally get in 2 to 3 other lanes to the right that are going 3-5 mph slower. This isn’t rocket science.

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-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

I wanted to bring up a deeper reason as to why drivers speed in general, and why we have so many road deaths in the US. It's not really a debate, road designers made it easy to go past the speed limit, people go past the speed limit.

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Not-Insane-Yet@reddit

No, it's greedy cities lowering speed limits for no other reason than to increase revenue from fines. If the road is designed for 55mph then lowering the limit to 35mph is bullshit.

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mdramsey@reddit

Speed doesn't kill. It's the sudden deceleration that's the problem.

To your point, yes, the interstate system is by and large designed to a higher-speed and that's why some state patrols enforce based on an 85th percentile rule. If the speed limit is 70, but traffic is flowing smoothly and with little congestion at 75, many state troopers will pick out the outliers doing 80+. Obviously this is totally arbitrary. I have LEO friends that will turn such tedious duty into a game - "I'll only pull over red cars going over the speed limit" type nonsense.

Part of the reason for this is because when it was built, the interstate system was designed with national defense in mind, not "forgiving" per se. About every five miles, there is a minimum one mile stretch of interstate that is straight to accommodate aircraft.

On a per-capital basis, the US isn't even in the top 100 deadliest in terms of traffic deaths.

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deezgiorno@reddit

This dude… “Speed doesnt kill. It’s the sudden deceleration as you crash into a tree that kills.” No shit dude

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-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

To clarify, I meant that forgiving design is deadly on roads other than highways. If you look at traffic deaths, the vast majority of them happen on arterials/collectors. Also, I think per capita, the US ranks pretty badly compared to developed countries.

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mdramsey@reddit

We also have far more cars on the road and way more driving miles than every other country except China, so stats are skewed to that factor. To that point, China's vehicle fatality rate dwarfs that of the US.

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-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

For further context, traffic deaths are also counted relative to miles traveled.

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Raptor_197@reddit

I don’t know if they can really account for the fact some Americans drive farther to work everyday than it takes to drive across some countries.

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-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

I think that's why you can have statistics that compare miles traveled with crashes/fatalities. For example, something super interesting is that during the pandemic, Americans drove less, yet traffic fatalities increased.

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Raptor_197@reddit

So you at just looking at crashes per mile while ignoring the factors that come from those miles. Being tired, being stressed, being detached from what you are doing. While also ignoring the time spans for crashes. A mileage that might take weeks to reach in another country is a day trip in the U.S.

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-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

You're right that driving for longer periods of time probably introduces more factors that contribute to crashes, but isn't this more reason to focus on how often people are dying on roads?

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Raptor_197@reddit

Yup, and you should use good data

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zacmobile@reddit

That's why they don't have multilane roads in the Netherlands. It does nothing to increase traffic flow, it just encourages speeding and reckless driving.

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saxmanB737@reddit

Stroads*

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Imaginary_You2814@reddit

I also find it’s the way stop lights are programmed. If you go the limit, you catch every red. If you go 10-15 over, you get through them

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-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

That sounds... correct... if you fly down a road a 15 mph higher than the limit you're bound to catch more greens... and maybe a felony.

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International-Ad3447@reddit

Yep designed for higher speeds for older cars

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LucidThot@reddit

People entering the highway at 35 makes the roads deadly.

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-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

Sorry, I meant on non-highway roads.

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LucidThot@reddit

Yeah, couple reasons non highway at least what I've encountered.

US still allows all old cars to be on the road so we have reduced speed limits to "try" to accommodate for them. Some states don't even need inspections.
The US is HUGE so where there arent highways, there are very long windy roads through hills and again you have to travel a long distance, there are more strict speed limits for trucks on some of the single lane roads and passing sections.
If you're not in the city alot of wildlife causes bad accidents. Wel have alot of large animals here. Alot of roads don't have bike lanes as well so you'll have a cyclist on a 55mph single lane road.
Bad city design causes congestion. Alot of these cities have been just built on smaller streets and expanded very rapidly after many permanent structures were built. So there's not very much you can do to add lanes or roads to help congestion.

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-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

Whoa, you think the US speed limits on normal roads are reduced? I've seen the opposite, 45mph seems to be the average limit in my area, but road designs are for 50mph+ This is in suburban/urban areas with low to medium density.

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LucidThot@reddit

Yeah, MANY rural roads will have 2 speed limit signs usually 55mph and 45mph for trucks.

As for more suburban areas the "speeding kills" narrative at least around me gave the counties and districts more pull on local speed limits, I've seen at least 60 roads the past 4 years near me get reduced by 5-10mph usually 45s to 40s 40s to 35s and lower.

There's also extra laws about speed limits that have schools on it. Not school zones but the road itself. This combined with rural towns and suburban areas being close you can get a 55/45 that turns into a 35/25 over a bridge to a 25 school zone to a 45 to a 55 back to a 25 in the span of like a mile.

Also it really depends on the contractors who build the road and the cities/counties that maintain them. So sometimes you'll get really crappy pothole roads forever with constant roadwork. And other times you'll get like airplane tarmac.

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RadishAcceptable5505@reddit

Apologies ahead of time, friend. Just FYI, "a lot" means many where "alot" isn't a word, and "allot" means to divide something up into portions.

You're absolutely spot on, though this little thing made my brain pause and dump the information as I was trying to figure out what you were saying each time "alot" came up and I had to reread each part that had it to figure it out via context.

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alwyn@reddit

BS. Roads will narrow, lower speed limits will be posted AND people ignore it.

Also I'm an immigrant and has driven all over the world. It's not your roads that are 'special'.

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666-3629@reddit

true, I love driving fast on narrow roads, it’s a lot of fun. Anyone can drive on a wide open road, the accelerator does all the work.

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-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

Well I imagine that forgiving design is something that many road designers worldwide use, I just have the most context here in the states. Part of forgiving design is not just lane width, it also includes the way turns are designed to be sweeping, and limiting visual and physical barriers and interruptions.

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nmmOliviaR@reddit

I have a personal road that narrows which people not only blatantly ignore, but for some reason do the REVERSE of the speed limits posted.

They come in to this road when it has a speed limit of 45, and they do about 35, rather slow and everyone's all bunched up and annoyed. But, and this is the part that gets me, they get to the part where the limit gets reduced to 35, and all of a sudden they decide to go 45 and above.

I often drive on that road every day since the other ones have annoying traffic lights so clearly these people are annoyed by them too but they do this reverse uno thing with how the limits are and it boggles my mind.

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RadishAcceptable5505@reddit

Yup, Murkia has a "Whatever! I do what I want!" mindset that's baked into the culture and it's absolutely stupid.

"But... doing that can get you killed. It's not safe."

"Whatever! I do what I want!"

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TheDutchTexan@reddit

No. American roads are so deadly because of the lack of proper driver education. Speed is no problem without proper drivers ed. Source? Germany.

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-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

I agree, we really need an overhaul of the American driver education system. Though Germany has lower fatalities/crashes because they implement more traffic calming measures. Combine that with good education and of course things will be safer. Interestingly Germany comes in at around number 7.

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dcgregoryaphone@reddit

The limit has to account for large tractor trailers transporting a full load and tiny hatchbacks. How would it even be possible to have the speed not be fairly low for many cars?

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EveningPresence@reddit

People speed because of arrogance. They thing they are good drivers and can handle it. Same for texting and driving.

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zacmobile@reddit

Yep, I live on a too wide street that is a school zone. They put in one of those digital speed signs but it only slows down about half of the drivers. Every morning I see people doing double the speed limit with little kids walking around. I've been on the police and city's case for 5 years but they haven't done anything. When I brought up the fact that lane width largely dictates travelling speed they were just like "Hmm, that's an interesting theory" Nobody cares until someone dies.

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-Wobblier@reddit (OP)

Even after someone dies nothing changes, drivers are always blamed, and road designers are never questioned. Even if the same crashes are happening at the same exact locations.

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oldoinyolengai@reddit

I frequently end up behind someone going the actual speed limit on a 2-way, 2-lane country road. This is because of where I live, and the fact other people exist besides me (just imagine). Beautiful scenery, speeding doesn't save anyone any time. We get there when we get there. I'm okay with this, but want to know who is never okay with this? The person behind me. Never. So now I'm being tailgated and there's nothing I can do about it. Yay.

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zacmobile@reddit

Same, where I live I'll often get behind someone going 10 under but I couldn't care less, I just keep a 5 second space and enjoy the ride. It really doesn't make a significant difference to travel time when you're only going 30 minutes away.

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rangeo@reddit

Hey r/Mississauga I immediately thought of The Central Parkway exit off the 403 Eastbound

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nmmOliviaR@reddit

In the cities where I live, it's more than just road design, it's traffic light timing.

The city's workers have taken steps to TRY (emphasis there) to improve the designs and the traffic flow, and in doing so change some traffic patterns. One of the reasons was to combat speeders but it ended up doing the exact opposite of intended. I have seen in the past two years drivers become more aggressive, and I can think that they are speeding not cause they actually wanted to, but because they want to not hit red light after red light. They bob and weave past the rest of us normal drivers to "beat the light". And when it gets blatant, you guessed it, there's a runner. Every time, even on the most regulated intersections. They don't even care if a camera flashes them anymore.

(of course the way the lights are done in our city annoys the hell out of EVERYONE)

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do_you_like_waffles@reddit

People speed cuz they are in a hurry or they just like going fast. It doesn't matter how the road is designed or what the posted speed limit is, there's always that guy whose tryna qualify for nascar.

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FungalBrew@reddit

If your doing 70 and the speed limit is 70, expect everybody to come zooming around you at 75-80. Generally cops don't ticket you until you exceed 10mph over the posted speed limit so the effective speed limit is 10mph over what's posted, particularly on highways. Its different in residential areas, you obey the posted speed limit when driving in places people live, local cops take that shit more seriously.

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Plus the larger roads allow for larger vehicles to feel normal. A tahoe/expedition are fairly common and are just slightly shorter than a short bus.

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Immediate-Shape-2957@reddit

Where did you learn this from?

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Accomplished-Act8616@reddit

Semi’s getting on fast lane makes things deadly!