How do most Americans deal with the fact that their country was built at the expense of Native Americans, who suffered a massacre?
Posted by Technical_Ad_4299@reddit | AskAnAmerican | View on Reddit | 79 comments
Are they still proud of their history regardless? Is this topic often avoided and ignored?
Grunt08@reddit
How do you deal with what your ancestors did to the Etruscans?
ARealLifeTangerine@reddit
What happened to the Etruscans?
pirawalla22@reddit
I agree generally with the tone of these responses, but at the same time, we should acknowledge that there are no living people who identify as Etruscan in Europe who mourn their ancestral land and the atrocities committed against relatives that their grandparents might have held in living memory.
All I'm saying is, your comment (and similar ones) is not really a mic drop response to this question.
Grunt08@reddit
We're all alive today because somewhere along the line - probably several times, probably a few hundred times if you go back far enough - our ancestors conquered and effectively erased other peoples. Every last one of us - and that includes the Native Americans mourning the ancestral lands that their ancestors made ancestral by conquering the people for whom they had previously been ancestral.
We're all here because our ancestors lopped off and burned whole branches of the human family tree who can't argue for themselves because they don't exist. That's as true for the Etruscans as it is for anyone else.
Pyehole@reddit
I live in Seattle, a city named after Chief Sealth. You know what he was up to right before the first Europeans showed up? He was raiding the San Juan islands where he killed and enslaved an entire village of people. I'm pretty much done with the pearl clutching about colonialism. It's not unique to European civilization, they were just more successful at doing what every human civilization has done throughout history.
GhostOfJamesStrang@reddit
Nevermind the Erruscans, who do they think started the violence against Native Americans?
Grunt08@reddit
Shhh...let him find out on his own.
NomadLexicon@reddit
It’s covered extensively in our school curriculum as a dark chapter of our history and a historical injustice that needs to be remembered. But the US, like any country, has a complex history and there is good to be proud of.
The vast majority of the Native American population decline occurred before the US existed when all territory in the Americas was ruled by European colonial empires. Some of the prominent conquerors and governors settled in the Americas, but many like Columbus, Cortes, John Smith, returned to Europe. Soldiers, diseases, settlers and African slaves headed West on Spanish, Portuguese, English, French, and Dutch ships. Large sections of Italy were part of the Habsburg Empire that conquered the Caribbean, Mesoamerica and South America. European societies profited for centuries off the massive influx of silver, gold, cash crops, grain, trade, and tax revenue from its American colonies.
So it’s your history too, how do you deal with it?
Certain_Mobile1088@reddit
Many Americans recognize that part of our history is—like enslavement of Africans—an important part of our story and a part not to be admired or repeated.
We don’t walk a round feeling guilty, bc we aren’t the ones who actually did it. But we do let it motivate us to expect better of our nation—better treatment of all people, regardless of their race, ethnicity, sex, gender identity, etc.
Of course their or some Americans now—as then—who think it was/is the right thing to do. The “might makes right” and “white makes right” crowd. Fortunately, they are relatively few in number and don’t have enough collaborators to carry out the genocides and enslavements I’m sure they’d love to see.
TrainElegant425@reddit
Oh a fucking Italian, who'd have thought.
SumFagola@reddit
If you check their post history, they seem to occasionally come here and post inflammatory questions and then not respond.
TheBimpo@reddit
Do you mean the Europeans who came to this continent and committed atrocities against the natives, like Columbus, etc?
Moomoomoo1@reddit
OP appears to be from the country that literally gave us Christopher Columbus lol
TheBimpo@reddit
Don't they have palaces full of things taken from other places?
Sandi375@reddit
They act smug on Reddit and imply that the US is the only country with a violent past. Then they sit there and read our comments and say our whataboutism is out of control, all the while missing the irony that the majority of our ancestors came from Europe.
TheBimpo@reddit
Europe has had genocide on their continent in the last 30 years.
Sandi375@reddit
Yeah. I don't know why they ask questions like this, knowing they're just as (if not more) guilty.
SumFagola@reddit
It's a bit worse than that. They revel in the atrocities committed by their countries. They view their colonial actions as 'bringing civility' to 'savages'. They don't have a drop of remorse yet expect North America to grovel about their actions against Native Americans
Relevant-Ad4156@reddit
Only weirdos are proud or ashamed of things their ancestors did.
We know how we got here, and who suffered because of it (and arguably, who is still suffering because of it), but none of us alive today are actually responsible.
Just as none of us are responsible for other horrible things in our history, like slavery.
Just as no one in the world is responsible for the horrible actions of their ancestors. Not a single inch of this world is free of heinous history. Everyone got to where they currently are by grinding someone else under. That history is just further back for much of the world.
Technical_Ad_4299@reddit (OP)
Thank you for your insightful reply. I'm sorry if my question sounded offensive. I can see a new point of view now.
Redbubble89@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_war_crimes
Nothing against you personally but I think the Italians should feel as much guilt as what the Germans feel about Hitler. Especially European countries, none of you have clean records and no one can sit there with a clean conscious. It may not be natives because of how old countries are but all of you guys have done something very regrettable.
Routine_Phone_2550@reddit
This!
itonmyface@reddit
Those were Europeans that did that
revengeappendage@reddit
Yea. Weird how that never happened anywhere else in the whole entire world in the whole entire existence. Only here. 🙄
Swimming-Book-1296@reddit
with the possible exception of the finns and basques, every group in europe colonized land already in use.
Sabertooth767@reddit
Finns are a Uralic people, originating from what is now central Russia near the Volga. They migrated to the Baltic Coast around 1200 BCE and from there to Finland in 800 BCE.
revengeappendage@reddit
Yea. I was being sarcastic because groups fighting over land has literally existed since all of human history.
TheBimpo@reddit
Do you think OP is British? German? Belgian?
My_two-cents@reddit
Its odd phrasing because its not being asked in good faith.
Vachic09@reddit
Nearly every country if not every country is guilty of genocide at some point. We are proud of the ideals we were founded upon, our accomplishments over the years, and the areas in which we have made progress over centuries. (Including our time as colonies)
I see other people have discovered that you are Italian. You should take a long hard look at your own history.
readbackcorrect@reddit
How do the English feel about building their empire on the suffering of those they colonized? How do they feel about starving and massacring the Irish people? How do Spanish people feel taking land back from the Moors by force? But wait, the Moors took it from them first. How do they feel about killing and enslaving the Aztecs? How do the Iroquois feel about enslaving members of other tribes and warring against other Native Americans in unprovoked attacks? human history is full of warfare and inhumane acts against other cultures and societies. Doesn’t make any of it right or justified, but Americans are far from the only ones.
OceanPoet87@reddit
I'm sure your country has a completely spotless history. Right, OP?
Raving_Lunatic69@reddit
Well except that time they partnered up with this dude named Adolph, but that doesn't matter right now...
HoldMyWong@reddit
He’s European. They have never had any sort of war or ethnic cleansing, especially not one after 1900
Recent-Irish@reddit
Bro is ITALIAN
thatsad_guy@reddit
Why do people assume we don't know this?
406_realist@reddit
Id bet anything that OP is the biggest POS around.
People who push these types of narratives are almost always the most flawed themselves
Welpmart@reddit
Well, I learn about what happened and why and the continuing effects of it. I can't wave my hands and demand a treaty be honored or sacred lands be cleaned up, but I can support the present-day causes of the people whose land I'm on, buy Native goods from Native peoples, and be a good neighbor.
The reality of Native Americans before and during colonization is complicated. It wasn't like they were the bloodthirsty savages or all-loving hippies they're sometimes made out to be; wars and treaties and such were conducted according to different norms that clashed with European ones. Nor did Europeans roll in and start murdering—different figures and groups at different times have been better or worse to Native nations. Treaties were often broken, amended, and ignored over a long period of pushing people around. Death by a thousand cuts and all.
Residential schools were horrors and more people should know about them.
ThatMuslimCowBoy@reddit
My family history is certainly complicated and interwoven with the cheyenne I am very much aware of what happened.
-Houston@reddit
This is taught in school many times at different ages. Our history courses don’t shy away from the bad parts.
All land on earth has been a battle ground of one group trying to overcome another. Look at Europe and the millions killed during the World Wars, tribal genocide in Africa, civil wars and murdering of indigenous in Latin America, and the list goes on.
Should Italians, Germans and Japanese not be proud of their country because generations ago they slaughtered millions of innocent? Life moves on and the people there now are not the same as before.
excaligirltoo@reddit
How do all humans feel about the fact that humans have been conquering land since time immemorial.
Sabertooth767@reddit
There is no country on Earth that wasn't built on war. Does that make it less tragic? I suppose not, but far from alone in the tragedy.
I'd like to think that we're relatively honest about our origins. I've yet to see a Frenchman apologize for the Franks having conquered the Gauls.
Technical_Ad_4299@reddit (OP)
You are right. Thanks for your answer.
abetterlogin@reddit
Should be the top answer here.
It’s not like the natives were friendly to each other. Tribes were warring with each other long before Europeans got here.
Europeans eliminated their food source, brought guns to a bow and arrow fight and kept throwing bodies at it until the Natives were subdued.
My_two-cents@reddit
We don't think about it, just like other countries don't think about their shady pasts. We are not special in this.
plamck@reddit
We do think about it. I grew up in Plano, Texas and we starting learning about it in second grade. We absolutely do think about our history.
My_two-cents@reddit
i took this question as "does this fact impact you in a meaningful way, how you live or act, is this a normal topic of conversation" not "where you taught this"
My_two-cents@reddit
Do you think about the trail of tears on a regular basis?
albert_snow@reddit
Love how Europeans like to trash Americans for manifest destiny, completely ignoring the fact that the real heavy lifting (the age of exploration and colonization murder, trickery, displacement and disease that devastates the natives) to push the natives out was all done by them. In terms of human cost, European administrators were responsible for more death of natives than the US era of Indian Wars. This is mostly due to disease, but still, it’s rich.
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Redbubble89@reddit
Every country has some skeletons whether in how it was formed or what it did colonially. Powhatan and the Algonquians lived on this land that I stand on. Poor policy and war wiped them out. We also had the Chinese exclusion act, Japanese interment camps, and oh yeah slaves. We at least acknowledge it.
Europe in my experience seems to sweep shit under the rug that they did even 100 years ago. There was an Italian Turkish genocide in 1911 and there's the whole policies with Mussolini. Germans are guilty to this day of the bad things their guy did but the Italian public in my opinion ignores the guy's atrocities.
WFOMO@reddit
I spend zero time worrying about events I had no hand in and I am powerless to change.
Being "proud" of your history? Again, events I had no hand in and am powerless to change. There are better things to worry bout.
TheTimelessOne026@reddit
Tell me op, how do you guys deal with all the war crimes your country committed in world war 2? Considering you are italian.
tyoma@reddit
They mostly don’t think about it after it’s taught multiple times in school. It’s the same way most other countries don’t think about how their borders became the way they are and who lived there previously.
You can watch this process unfold! There is a war of conquest happening in Europe right now. The consensus there seems to be that this is not good, but not bad enough to stop buying cheap oil and gas.
Moomoomoo1@reddit
I don't lose sleep over it. Obviously it was terrible but I had no say in the matter
StrawberryKiss2559@reddit
It fucking sucks. And it’s like half of my ancestors that suffered from it. The other half of my ancestors are the ones who caused the suffering.
No-Conversation1940@reddit
If you have family history in Oklahoma like I do, you probably have Natives in your family tree somewhere.
AnalogNightsFM@reddit
What an odd phrasing. How do we deal with it? We acknowledge it. It’s taught in schools.
albert_snow@reddit
OP is def proud of what the Italians did in Ethiopia less than 100 years ago… right? Old school Colonialism in the 1930s… yikes!
jjr4884@reddit
On behalf of the OP.... "Homer Simpson backing into shrubs" GIF
WanderingGalwegian@reddit
In much more recent history how do Italians feel about the atrocities committed throughout Africa about 80 years ago. To including the bombing of Red Cross hospitals and the use of chemical weapons on civilian populations. Are they still proud of their history regardless? Is this topic often avoided and ignored?
plamck@reddit
Looking back at the history of any country, you will find atrocities. What is more important is how the country discusses it.
We start teaching our public about our atrocities before 3rd grade, we know our history.
Arleare13@reddit
I don't think anybody is proud of it, but it happened hundreds of years before any of us were alive. What can we do, except support policies to help ameliorate the negative effects on their descendants today?
No, it's very thoroughly taught in schools.
Superb_Item6839@reddit
Lol OP is Italian. How do Italians deal with the fact that they helped and aided Hitler in his genocide of Jewish people?
Dinocop1234@reddit
I deal by living my life just like anyone.
It’s not avoided at all.
Are you proud of your history with all of the “bad” things that have been done by people from the Italian peninsula? Does the invasion of Ethiopia get ignored and avoided?
Routine_Phone_2550@reddit
This!
DrWhoisOverRated@reddit
It is taught in schools, and then brought up repeatedly by smug European redditors who think we don’t know about it.
Routine_Phone_2550@reddit
This!
Coro-NO-Ra@reddit
We mostly don't.
The way this is taught also varies heavily by state. It has to be highly simplified at the high school level, which leads to a lot of misconceptions later down the road. A lot of people mistake added nuance at the university level for "propaganda" or "revisionism."
fasterthanfood@reddit
I agree, and I’d add that in the last few decades policy makers have decided (rightly, in my view) that high school is actually the proper time for some of the nuance that used to be saved until college. That’s where the “teaching kids to hate themselves” attack comes from (hopefully by college your identity is sufficiently formed that you can easily contextualice and cope with learning that some of your ancestors did horrible things and that, even if you personally overcame a lot, you still benefitted from those horrible things).
Dingo-Eating-Baby@reddit
Which specific Indians? Some of them deserved it.
NotTheATF1993@reddit
Every country ever was built at the expense of someone else. The Native Americans fought amongst themselves as well, not like they were all living in harmony. Yeah they did fucked up things to the Natives but I nor was anyone currently here apart of it. I'm still proud to be from here and proud of a lot of our history. No country has a squeaky clean past.
Pyehole@reddit
Find me a single place on the planet where previous peoples, cultures or societies haven't been pushed out by others. Then I might feel bad. Until then...well...it is what it is.
My_two-cents@reddit
Why did you leave out the Slave trade and what happened to the African Americans? Does their suffering not count also? Are you Racist?
Swimming-Book-1296@reddit
Does your country talk about the genocides that the romans did in europe?
Epsilia@reddit
European colonization was a net positive for the America's. The natives weren't just sitting around hugging trees and getting along. They were pillaging, enslaving, and sacrificing each other.
Th3MiteeyLambo@reddit
I would say that for most of us it's not exactly something we think about.
In my unpopular opinion, every people on the planet has been subjugated by some other at some point in history. I simultaneously think it's important to understand where we went wrong as a country but also don't feel culpable and shouldn't be blamed for those things.
Jakebob70@reddit
How do Europeans feel about their civilization being built at the expense of the Neanderthals, who suffered genocide?
GhostOfJamesStrang@reddit
Violence against Native Americans is taught in schools, ususally multiple times in different grades.
I would argue it is a disservice to several other people groups to speak only of Native Americans. Thankfully we study those groups and terrible acts too.