Israel kills at least 50 in Gaza, forces encircle northern Jabalia
Posted by LenaRybakina@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 186 comments
Posted by LenaRybakina@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 186 comments
ptsdstillinmymind@reddit
Israel Government: Notice The genocide will continue until morale improves..
Palestinians: How can morale improve if their is no food or safe place?
Israel Government: That's the point!
fin
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
"Genocide"
wewew47@reddit
What would you call intentionally starving hundreds of thousands of people, all from the same ethnic group, over a prolonged period of time knowing that it will eventually lead to their deaths and refusing to avert that consequence?
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Fighting a war against dangerous fanatics. Maybe it's time to surrender?
wewew47@reddit
You don't think deliberately starving hundreds of thousands of civilians of a particular ethnic group to death unless they agree to be ethnically cleansed from their homes, is at least potentially genocidal?
You seriously think that's just fighting a war?
So if russia deliberately starved half a million Ukrainian civilians, potentially to death, whilst Russian leaders advocated for nuking them, turning their country to a slaughterhouse and declaring they should be genocided like the enemy in their holy book, that would just be war, would it?
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Is surrender an option? I forget....
wewew47@reddit
Hamas have already agreed to a ceasefire deal backed by the west. Israel is the last country to back it. Because they want to prolong the genocide.
It's unfortunate that you're only capable of talking in half sentences instead of engaging in good faith but that hardly surprising given what you're supporting
Ornery_Ad_8349@reddit
What other country in history has been expected to provide food to its enemies?
wewew47@reddit
Under international law, literally every single country occupying territory is obliged to provide food to civilians of the occupied territory. The allies did it in ww2. Even the Germans did to those that weren't considered undesirables.
America made sure the people's of Afghanistan and iraq were fed whilst occupying their countries.
Your line of questioning illustrates your ignorance.
And even if it weren't the norm, your basic fucking humanity should tell you that murdering 400000 people by refusing to give them food, is an incredibly fucked up thing to do, or to defend. Disgusting
Cloudsareinmyhead@reddit
You don't seem to understand the definition of genocide. What Russia is trying to do in Ukraine IS genocide. What the IDF is doing ISN'T. There's quite a difference between removing militant groups that want to destroy Israel and what happened in Bucha. I will however say that Netanyahu isn't listening to the crowd and that's gonna come back to bite him in the balls
wewew47@reddit
There is. Except that isn't what's happening. Israel isn't just removing militant groups. They're starving hundreds of thousands of civilians to death unless someone forces aid in, whilst also forcibly displacing more than 1.5 million others and destroying their homes and hospitals and schools and mosques and universities. That is erasing an entire population in terms of their culture, knowledge and infrastructure. All this happening at the same time as they steal their land, kicking natives out of their homes under threat of lynching and illegally annexing it.
It is genocide.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
So how many conflicts around the world qualify as genocide in your book?
wewew47@reddit
Why are you dancing around directly addressing the points I've raised?
Leather-Ad-7799@reddit
1 week comment history? Definitely not a hasbara bot
Cum-Cock-City@reddit
You guys make me laugh. You say "hasbara" and think that's checkmate.
rowida_00@reddit
Checkmate to what exactly?
Cum-Cock-City@reddit
Guy puts the word genocide in air quotes, other guy tries to pretend he's a "Hasbara bot" programmed to spout Israeli propaganda to discredit his criticism of the use of the word.
rowida_00@reddit
What criticism? I hardly think the word genocide in quotation can be regarded as palpable criticism that should be dignified with a proper response.
Cum-Cock-City@reddit
Criticism of the obvious incorrect use of the word. He didn't need to flesh out an argument because the burden of proof lies with the one making the extreme claim.
rowida_00@reddit
Where is the criticism dude? Where is the actual criticism? Random Redditors saying
doesn’t constitute criticism worthy of addressing. Especially when the ICJ has established plausibility in the current genocide case South Africa has submitted against Israel, which is pending a full investigation. You’re give an insipid comment way too much credence.
slickweasel333@reddit
"[The court] did not decide, and this is something where I'm correcting something that's often said in the media. It did not decide that the claim of genocide was plausible," Joan Donoghue, head of that ICJ panel
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-68906919
rowida_00@reddit
You’re referencing the ex-president of the ICJ who was part of a panel made of 15 judges in that genocide case and is no longer serving in the court, exclusively singling her out when judges in the ICJ routinely give dissenting opinions. The court agrees there’s risk of irreparable harm to the Palestinian right to be protected from genocide under the genocide convention. But who’s creating those risks? And what does irreparable harm to those rights constitute?
I’m sorry you didn’t read the summary of the order released in its totality. But here’s the official link for it.
Key points from the summary of order;
The very point that almost everyone who’s read the order has emphasized. It unambiguously stipulated that the court views that some of the acts South Africa alleges Israel has committed falls under the provisions of the convention.
The court has also refused Israel’s request to have the case removed.
Further delineation on plausibility.
The UN OCHA, a branch of the United Nations which the ICJ the judicial organ of, has concluded the same thing.
Other experts ascertained to the same exact reality.
Pretty much everyone is in agreement as to what was stipulated in the preliminary ruling. So you’ll have to argue everyone is wrong, sorry.
slickweasel333@reddit
She was the head of that panel when they came to that decision, but if you know more than her, by all means go off 😎
rowida_00@reddit
She was the head? And is no longer in the panel? And no longer serving in the court? And has spoken at a personal capacity as all judges do in their dissenting opinions? I simply don’t know as much as, well, as everyone and everything I quoted actually 😂
slickweasel333@reddit
She retired shortly after. So you didn't read the link and went straight to discrediting. Telling...
rowida_00@reddit
No I did. I actually watched the clip on BBC long before this conversation. But I’ve literally referenced a lot that you’ve glossed over and you’re telling me that I didn’t read a single link that you provided? Had you read anything I’ve referenced you’d realize what I’m discrediting…
slickweasel333@reddit
I don't read most links from people who call other people Hasbara. It's a personal rule to not waste too much time on anyone not arguing in good faith.
rowida_00@reddit
You
Also you
Indeed, very telling. 😂
You don’t read links but you want people to read yours. Why are you even having this conversation!
slickweasel333@reddit
Lol you even cut off the context of the sentence in your quote. We are having this conversation because you wouldn't believe anything that counters your narrative.
Cum-Cock-City@reddit
Criticism noun
(Idk it seems to follow the definition. You can ask him to elaborate if you need.)
rowida_00@reddit
The word genocide in quotation fits the definition of criticism now? You’re asking me to double check a conjecture that you made?
Cum-Cock-City@reddit
He expressed his disapproval with the use of the word. It literally fits the definition. I do not know how I can make this any more clear to you.
rowida_00@reddit
You don’t need to make something that you strongly believe in any clearer because you’ve decided to read way too much into a single word put in quotation. You personally think that the word qualifies as an expression of disapproval, great. But that’s as far as it goes. It’s your prerogative. His comment doesn’t deserve more than what it got, something that you were completely outraged by.
Cum-Cock-City@reddit
"outraged"
rowida_00@reddit
And obsession. Apparently, someone saying “genocide” is a valid expression of disapproval and criticism. But someone else responding to that random comment by saying hasbara, is considered senseless expression used as a “checkmate” to a nonexistent argument? Talk about setting common sense on fire.
_geomancer@reddit
Ok, Cum-Cock-City…the other guy said “”Genocide””
Cum-Cock-City@reddit
That's another one I find funny, saying my username like it gives your argument more weight lol
_geomancer@reddit
Wasn’t aware we were having an argument
Cum-Cock-City@reddit
Then what does your comment even mean?
_geomancer@reddit
I was pointing out how dumb your comment sounded given the context
Cum-Cock-City@reddit
Someone was criticizing the use of the word genocide. Then someone accuses him of being a Hasbara bot. I was pointing out how it's a weak attempt to discredit the previous comment.
_geomancer@reddit
Ok 👍
slickweasel333@reddit
I don't think you can talk with the post history of around the clock shilling for a certain side.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Lol, dude have you seen your comment history? It looks like commenting ON REDDIT is your job 🙄 LMAO
Leather-Ad-7799@reddit
Im just a dude disgusted by the Hasbara™️ I’m seeing on this platform.
Couldn’t even deny the allegations 🤣😩
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Ok 👍
MoltenCopperEnema@reddit
"No food"
borat_is_good_movie@reddit
"Most moral army"
sr_edits@reddit
Yeah, Hamas stealing food and resources might have something to do with that.
wewew47@reddit
So after a year of occupying gaza militarily and fighting hamas, Israel has done such a terrible job that hamas is still strong enough to steal a large amount of the aid coming in?
Sounds like the invasion is pointless and should be called off with a ceasefire to free the hostages, as has already been agreed by everyone except netanyahu, then.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
No food, but still so many rockets left to fire at Israel. It's crazy...
dont-believe-me-@reddit
"moron"
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Lol
Mygaffer@reddit
Yes, it is, thank you.
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
If you say so lol
TumbleweedMore4524@reddit
The Palestinians need to be asking Hamas how it can justify its militants occupying and embedding their infrastructure into these civilian municipalities.
There is no viable Palestinian state without the removal of Hamas from governance and destruction of its capacity to launch attacks on Israel.
Hopefully Israel, along with the International Community, will help fund reconstruction after the war and prevent reconstitution by Hamas.
Kinda-A-Bot@reddit
Narrator: THEY WILL NOT. Enjoy annexation.
What a shit bot. Even their justification are getting weaker.
TumbleweedMore4524@reddit
I’m not a bot and I’m genuinely trying to understand what could have been done instead in response to Hamas - thanks for the bad faith engagement though….. what a joke
ubion@reddit
In response to hamas? Hamas are in response to Israel doing exactly this
Proper_Razzmatazz_36@reddit
Hamas attacked Israeli civilians and has been very clear that they want to destroy Israel. It is irrelevant what caused hamas to exist because what's relevant is what hamas has done, and how Israel should respond to what hamas has done
Kinda-A-Bot@reddit
You don’t get to say it’s irrelevant when it’s literally the same shit that made Hamas form. It’s very relevant. It’s the literal point of calling it out. wtf?
calllery@reddit
If they've leveled every building, killed countless innocents and Hamas still operates there you gotta wonder if the IDF are just really bad at their job
TumbleweedMore4524@reddit
Literally what is the alternative to a military operation to remove Hamas from power? How do the Palestinians ever get a state in a 2 state solution when Hamas is violently opposed this?
I’ve been asking this in good faith in this sub, but I get no practical, alternative ideas from you guys.
How would the allies defeated the Nazis without war?
The IDF obviously cannot kill every single Hamas militant, that would be impossible, they just need to take a critical number of them out. I said that I hope Israel helps directly fund the rebuilding process.
If all of Germany can be rebuilt after the allies bombed it into desolation, why can’t the affected parts of Gaza?
calllery@reddit
If they haven't taken out a critical number of Hamas militants at this point then, again, they must be really fucking shit at their job.
ResourceParticular36@reddit
yeh dont fucking occupy someone elses land, thats the alternative.
TumbleweedMore4524@reddit
Gaza hasn’t been occupied since 2005. What does Israel not occupying land look like to you?
ThisPersonIsntReal@reddit
They occupy the West Bank, to the Palestinians in Gaza who definitely have relatives there this occupation affects them
LEFT4Sp00ning@reddit
besides, I'd say building a fence around Gaza, controlling the air space, waters and everything that goes in and out of Gaza (which has to be approved by Israel before going into Gaza) including water and electricity is a defacto occupation even if they officially stopped occupying in 2005
godintraining@reddit
You say there is no alternative, but everyone is telling you the current alternative is not viable.
So, what’s next? What happens when peace is declared, after tens of thousands are already dead, when a third of them are children? When all hospitals and schools have been targeted and people have been starved?
Do you actually believe the IDF will just walk out of Gaza one day and let the world pour in its investments to rebuild? Will the survivors simply forget? Will they forgive? How?
I can’t help but be disgusted by the constant comparison to Germany when talking about Israel.
What about Libya? After Gaddafi was removed, Libya plunged into civil war, into chaos and endless suffering. And the bombings in Libya were nothing compared to what Gaza is enduring now.
So why keep using the same tired references to history? This is a different kind of horror, a different level of devastation.
TumbleweedMore4524@reddit
I’m not saying there isn’t an alternative, but that I’m struggling to see an alternative approach to military intervention (which this sub seems to overwhelmingly oppose). That’s why I’m asking for others alternative.
There are ‘day after’ proposals being put forward by the Israelis (Bibi doesn’t discuss this in public, but they do exist) that are being discussed with some of surrounding Arab states (UAE, Saudi, etc).
To get a viable Palestinian state, you’ll need a transitionary period involving some form of occupation and administration by an ideally outside Arab coalition (not Israelis) in partnership with the international community that can oversee the infrastructure rebuilding, establishing of moderate local leadership, and prevent reconstitution by Hamas.
This is what the Saudis did to themselves post 2003. This is what America did to Korea and Japan. This is what Europe did to Germany post WWII.
Germany was desolated, 120,000+ innocent German civillians (many of whom were children) died from the allies bombing of Germany. Did the Germans seek revenge for their murdered children? The allies occupied Germany and oversaw Nazi Germanys sovereignty being stripped away and their lands and borders carved up. Did the Germans seek revenge for this occupation, humiliation and utter defeat? No.
Germany didn’t retaliate by re-instating the Nazi regime and launching another front against Europe, so why is it inevitable that the Palestinians will do the equivalent?
Why is it that groups of people everywhere can be expected to not retaliate after suffering horrific oppression and lead a course towards peaceful coexistence with their oppressors, but not the Palestinians?
steepleton@reddit
I expect the plan to re build gaza is to tarmac over the graves and re-settle it with israeli’s
0WatcherintheWater0@reddit
It’s a genocide to kill Hamas members in live firefights?
Person5_@reddit
So military attack and only Hamas as a source as to what happened? How many of those 50 were Hamas? Was it even 50?
Oh wait, i forgot in this sub Hamas is a completely trusted source, just like Iran and Hezbollah, and Israel is the only ones outputting propaganda.
Quiet_Firefighter_65@reddit
That's not how it works. It's on the killers to show that they were indeed combatants and therefore legitimate targets, not the other way around. The geneva convention is clear on this, they're presumed to be civilians.
netowi@reddit
The Geneva Convention is also pretty clear that combatants must be distinguishable from civilians (i.e. be uniformed and carry weapons openly) and that civilian buildings may not be used by combatants (and if they do, the buildings can be considered military targets).
The Palestinians cannot expect to be protected by laws they do not abide by.
MichelangeBro@reddit
"The Palestinians" are not a monolithic people. Nor are they all Hamas. Nor are they all guilty by association. Declaring that all Palestinians "cannot expect to be protected" by the Geneva fucking Conventions because of the actions of Hamas is dehumanizing and a literal war crime.
netowi@reddit
But the key issue here is that Hamas themselves do not distinguish between Palestinian civilians and their own people. In fact, they intentionally make it difficult to differentiate. That's the entire problem. Do you not get that that is why civilian casualties have been so high?
As a practical matter, how should the laws of war deal with combatants who intentionally disguise themselves as civilians or who intentionally put their own civilians in danger? What incentives should the laws of war establish?
_geomancer@reddit
The laws you’re referring to are meant for litigating disputes between sovereign states. Hamas is not a sovereign state - they are a resistance group in an apartheid state which is characterized by the continual state violence against Palestinians and dispossession of Palestinian land.
Furthermore, even if Palestine was a sovereign state, their crimes would not excuse Israel’s. It’s just a fundamental misunderstanding of how laws work, honestly. So you need to take a step back and examine that before you worry about litigating any of Hamas’s crimes.
Ornery_Ad_8349@reddit
What a convenient way to excuse Hamas of all the horrible things they do. “They’re not a sovereign state! They can act however they want with no consequences!”
_geomancer@reddit
Pretty sure I said elsewhere in this very thread that I believe that both Hamas and Israel should be held accountable for their crimes so characterizing my position as an excuse for all of the horrible things they do is pretty disingenuous. However, Hamas is only committing crimes as long as it goes beyond being a resistance against an apartheid and illegal occupation by Israel, which is what caused Hamas to form.
The lives of Israeli civilians and Palestinian civilians are equally valuable, so they both deserve to be held accountable for those crimes in accordance with the scale of the crime. Israel not only has targeted civilians to a much greater degree, it also doesn’t have a fundamental right to violently maintain an apartheid built on stolen land and Palestinians do have a fundamental right to self determination, which is an important distinction. In this context the actions on each side are not symmetrical.
Ornery_Ad_8349@reddit
You say this, and yet you wrote this:
How should a reasonable person read this if not as an excuse for Hamas to ignore the rules of war?
Any reasonable person would also read this as excusing Hamas’ actions.
Not according to Hamas. They regularly accept trades of hundreds of Palestinian prisoners in exchange for single Israeli prisoners.
Really? It seems to me that Hamas only targets civilians; the reason there aren’t as many Israeli civilians dying is because Israel actually cares about its people and takes great efforts to defend them. Help me understand, what military goal was Hamas achieving my murdering and raping a bunch of ravers in the desert?
As long as Palestinians keep using their right to self-determination to attack and murder Jews, Israelis will keep using their right to self-determination to defend themselves.
_geomancer@reddit
Zzz
Ornery_Ad_8349@reddit
Ahh, sorry to see that I overwhelmed your mental faculties with my comment. It’s too bad, really; I was looking forward to your response.
_geomancer@reddit
Zzz
Ornery_Ad_8349@reddit
😂
Person5_@reddit
The Geneva convention is also pretty clear that using human shields is a war crime, and it is not a war crime to kill human shields.
Fuzzy_Yogurt_Bucket@reddit
So all Hamas needs to do is claim that all of the civilian victims of 10/7 were human shields and what happened that day is automatically perfectly fine.
Troglert@reddit
Isnt the rule that collateral damage has to be proportional to the value of the target? Surely you cant just kill civilians and call them human shields to take all the blame off yourself?
Person5_@reddit
Of course you can't, but when Hamas entrenches itself within civilian structures and refuses to identify themselves (thus hiding amongst the civilian populace) you don't have to do much more to prove they're using human shields
beansthemajicalfruit@reddit
Maybe they should surrender...
_geomancer@reddit
Palestine is not a sovereign state with a standing army. Hamas is a resistance group in a concentration camp more than they are a government. The people of Gaza are without food and water and it’s likely that any capacity they once had to even manufacture uniforms is literally buried under rubble.
Furthermore, lawbreakers in any civil society are protected by the very same laws that are used to punish them. It’s actually a fundamental principle of a fair justice system, but I see that you’ve taken a leaf from Israel’s book - you think that the standard only applies to one party in this conflict.
While Hamas should be held to account for their actions which went beyond the valid goal of resisting an illegal occupation, the murder and dispossession of hundreds of thousands of civilians carried out by Israel is not a valid punishment. It’s just a crime against Palestinians; and a significantly worse crime than ever committed by Hamas against Israelis. Hamas and Israel should both be held to account if you actually believe that laws should not protect those that don’t abide by them, however nonsensical of an idea it is.
netowi@reddit
Hamas claimed to be the legitimate government of all of the Palestinian territories. They won the last Palestinian national elections. They enjoyed (mostly) a monopoly on force within Gaza. They received millions from Iran, Qatar, and other backers. They had more of the shape and function of a state than a number of internationally recognized states. They had the funds to buy tens of thousands of rockets, guns, bombs, and other weapons, and the funds to build an underground tunnel network more expansive than the London Underground.
Are you seriously telling me that that organization could not afford uniforms??
_geomancer@reddit
Never has Palestine been a sovereign state. You can take your bullshit about an election that most people in Gaza weren’t even alive for somewhere else because it’s ridiculous to think that just because they had an election it was a sovereign state. It was still just apartheid - Palestinians were getting continually dispossessed and corralled into enclaves in the West Bank and Gaza was under embargo without free access to natural resources on Palestinian land.
wewew47@reddit
Irrelevant. A murderer is still protected from being murdered under the eyes of the law. And to place all palestinians in this category when a tiny percentage are actually hamas fighters, is disgusting. It's also collective punishment, a war crime. So congrats on advocating for war crimes.
You're also conveniently forgetting how the idf dressed up as hospital patients and doctors to assassinate 3 wounded patients in a gaza hospital, one of whom was paralysed, which is another set of war crimes.
Why do you let Israel get away with dressing up as medical personnel? Surely you will be consistent here and say Israel shouldn't be protected by any international laws about the rules of war?
Virtual-Pension-991@reddit
Quite the bullshit. This means you have to claim your enemy to approve your claim.
This step is ripe for propaganda and misinformation.
Quiet_Firefighter_65@reddit
I know you lot think the Geneva conventions and international law is bullshit, you don't have to mention it.
The enemy doesn't have to approve your claim, you have to show evidence that there was probable cause for you to believe that the people you killed were combatants, otherwise it's just murder. And that will be hard for Israel considering the people they're killing are patients in hospitals, women and children. So even if we presumed all healthy adult males were combatants, which is of course not true, Israel would still be commiting war crimes and murder.
Virtual-Pension-991@reddit
Pretty textbook take
I can't relate, not when they martyr their deaths like this.
Syrairc@reddit
It's fucking Reuters, and Hamas was only mentioned as a source for one quote in the whole article.
Also, what kind of sources do you expect from Gaza when Israel does not allow any press other than embedded IDF reporters? Why is Israel so worried about independent reporting if they're doing nothing wrong?
Person5_@reddit
The Gaza health ministry was mentioned multiple times.
fuckthiscentury175@reddit
Hamas has a better track record than the IDF when it comes to telling the truth. Which is beyond sad, but it's the sad reality we live in.
Zipz@reddit
In what world ?
The only time Hamas has told the truth is when they say they want to obliterate Israel
Person5_@reddit
Good to know you trust a literal terrorist organization that is
A. The agressor B. Proven to lie about most of this shit. C. Negotiates in bad faith
fuckthiscentury175@reddit
And FYI: Israel ticks off every single criteria to be considered a terror organization, and before you claim that they are a state and can't be considered terrorists; Hamas is (sadly) the government of Gaza, so that argument does not really fly.
lraven17@reddit
They're both aggressors, they're both liars, they're both negotiating in bad faith. It's just that one of them is on our payroll, and is steamrolling the other.
This is not a defense of Israel.
wewew47@reddit
Nelson Mandela was also a terrorist. I hope you don't trust anything he ever said.
Now, I am not claiming hamas are as good as Mandela, far from it. But moreso saying that simply claiming you can't believe anything because it was said by a terrorist is demonstrably daft.
Hamas was formed in response to israels occupation. As an occupying power, Israel is the aggressor by default.
Source on that? Their health ministry at least has been proven to be extremely reliable.
Netanyabu literally sabotaged the ceasefire deal because everyone except him agreed to it. He deliberately added extra clauses he knew were unacceptable. Hamas and the US have agreed on a reasonable ceasefire, even the israeli negotiators thought it was fine to agree to, but netanyahu sabotaged it.
Your delusion is insane
dont-believe-me-@reddit
You are free to leave.
Orolol@reddit
Of course Hamas lies. Hezbollah too ! And Libanese government, healthcare workers, journalists, ngo, UN, civilians, pictures, videos, everything lies.
dannywild@reddit
I have it on good authority that 60 of those 50 were civilians.
Leather-Ad-7799@reddit
The Zionist bots on these posts commenting some absolutely disgusting things shows exactly how Zionists look at Palestinians.
“Khamas made us bomb those kids”, “khamas uses human shields” will always be the first defense for indefensible actions; and they will act surprised the next time an Oct7th happens when they’ve been defending burning children alive claiming “nothing could justify Oct 7th” while they justify much more death and destruction.
slickweasel333@reddit
In 2014, the Hamas spokesperson Sami Abu Zuhari told al-Aqsa TV: “Hamas despises those defeatist Palestinians who criticise the high number of civilian casualties. The resistance praises our people … we lead our people to death … I mean, to war.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/30/human-shield-israel-claim-hamas-command-centre-under-hospital-palestinian-civilian-gaza-city
Yeah, they totally don't use human shields /s
rowida_00@reddit
Israel gets to call out Hamas for using Palestinians as human shields while they themselves use them as human shields apparently.
slickweasel333@reddit
Whataboutism. Are you denying that Hamas uses Palestians as human shields?
2006: “The citizens will continue defending their pride and houses and will continue to serve as human shields until the enemy will withdraw.”10 2014: “The fact that people are willing to sacrifice themselves against Israeli warplanes in order to protect their homes, I believe this strategy is proving itself. And we, Hamas, call on our people to adopt this practice.”11 2014: “Hamas despise those defeatist Palestinians that criticize the high number of civilian casualties. The resistance praises our people…we lead our people to death…I mean, to war.”12
Ismail Haniyeh, former Prime Minister of the Palestinian National Authority (2006- 2014), Head of Hamas Political Bureau in Gaza (since 2017) 2006: Citizens were encouraged to gather at Muhammad Baroud’s house (a prominent PRC combatant) in Jabaliya refugee camp, after the IDF issued a warning. Following the event, Haniyeh stated: “I believe that what has happened tonight will be a role model… an example to our Palestinian people and a clear message, that the [Zionist] aggression will not break our will.”13 2008: “Israel threatens to bombard houses [in which freedom fighters live], but hundreds and thousands of Palestinians climb to those houses rooftops in the middle of the night to defend those houses.”14 Fathi Hamad, Hamas MP 2008: “For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry […]. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly and the mujahideen.” 15
Khaled Mashal, Head of the Hamas Political Bureau (1996-2017) “If you will foolishly decide to enter Gaza, we will fight you. You will face not only thousands of our combatants, but also a million and a half of our population, driven by the desire to become martyrs.”16 Ministry of Interior in the Gaza Strip (via spokespeople) 2009: “Men in uniform have been declared targets for air strikes. As a result, while outside in the terrain, uniforms are to be discarded and civilian clothes are to be worn.”17 2014: "“We call those who evacuated their houses to return immediately and stay there… Israel’s warnings are nothing but psychological warfare… by leaving your houses you assist the enemy to fulfil its plans, that is, annihilating your belongings and houses.”18
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human _shields.pdf
Sources are cited in the linked document
rowida_00@reddit
Did I spoil your perfect comment?! Oh boy, my apologies. But I don’t see how this constitutes whataboutism when Israel’s entire argument for targeting every house, hospital, school, mosque, residential building, church, restaurant, university, bakery, medical facility and ambulance gravitates towards the premise that Hamas uses civilians as human shields. The fact that they themselves use Palestinians as human shields defeats the purpose of their own claims. It discredits them further although I am not even sure what credibility do they currently hold. It’s not just the New York Times that reached that conclusions, others have as well. And no, this isn’t restricted to their current genocidal campaign in Gaza, it goes back years.
As for the document you’ve provided. Are you aware that the second quote has a reference as “Facebook post made by Hamas” without providing the actual link? And that the 3rd quote has reference 18] as a video posted on YouTube by the IDF channel? Surely you can’t expect people to take you seriously?
slickweasel333@reddit
If you have issues with the credibility of the report, I'm sure NATO Strategic Communications COE would welcome your feedback. Go volunteer to help with the research.
rowida_00@reddit
Well it has nothing to do with my personal interpretation of the references used in the quotes that you made! They are what they literally are, a video posted on the IDF’s official YouTube channel and the other was an alleged Facebook post. Also, NATO’s credibility eroded the minute they started going on far more offensive operations in the past 3 decades alone than defensive ones while being a “defensive alliance”.
slickweasel333@reddit
So we've gone back to attacking the messenger strategy. You need new tricks.
rowida_00@reddit
You need to come to terms with the fact that people will scrutinize the sources provided in the report that you referenced certain quotes from. It’s called critical thinking not some tactic, strategy or a “trick”.
slickweasel333@reddit
I'll tell the NATO researchers right away 👍
rowida_00@reddit
Make sure to remind them that for the sake of credibility and impartiality, referencing the IDF’s official YouTube channel won’t necessarily fit that criteria. But who am I kidding? These are the same people who bombed Yugoslavia in violation of international law, without a UNSC resolution mandating their intervention and when they actually got one for the bombing campaign of Libya, they exceeded the mandate of the resolution and pursed a regime change instead.
slickweasel333@reddit
Lol, wait until you hear the history of what Hamas' predecessors did. I bet then you'll change your tune about judging the sons on the actions of their fathers.
rowida_00@reddit
What is there to hear? Hamas was created in 1987 predating Israel’s occupation by decades. Let’s start there.
slickweasel333@reddit
rowida_00@reddit
You mean those who were resisting Israel’s land theft, ethnic cleansing, Nakba and countless massacres?
slickweasel333@reddit
Do you include the terrorist hijackings and Olympic massacre as part of that or separate? I just want to know if you're consistent.
rowida_00@reddit
Oh I’m consistent. Terrorist hijackings and massacres of any kind are unacceptable. But when Israel is literally created by Zionist terrorist organizations like the Irgun, Lehi and Haganah, who committed at least 57 terrorist attacks killing 5000 people, terrorists who massacred Palestinians like in the Dier Yassin Massacre, murdering hundreds of innocent people, suddenly that argument about terrorism loses any sense of meaning or purpose.
godintraining@reddit
I really do not understand your logic. If a civilian is used as shields, it becomes ok to drop a 200 ton bomb on them and their neighbors?
slickweasel333@reddit
No. I'm saying that it's completely possible that it was a much smaller strike targeted the Hamas leaders mentioned in the IDF press release, but that it caused a runaway explosion because of munitions and explosives being stored in civilian areas by Hamas. We don't know yet because it just happened, but it does line up with other instances, like the Rafah incident.
godintraining@reddit
Yes, and this is what Reuters says in the article linked:
“Palestinian health officials said at least 17 people were killed by Israeli fire near Al-Falouja in Jabalia, the largest of Gaza’s eight historic refugee camps, while 10 others were killed in Bani Suhaila in eastern Khan Younis in the south when an Israeli missile struck a house.
Earlier on Tuesday, an Israeli airstrike destroyed three houses in the Sabra suburb of Gaza City, and the local civil emergency service said they recovered two bodies from the site, while the search continued for 12 other people who were believed to have been in the houses at the time. Eight others were killed when a house was struck in the Nuseirat camp in central Gaza.
The Gaza health ministry said one doctor was killed when he tried to help people wounded by Israeli strikes in Al-Falouja in Jabalia. It added that several medics were wounded when their ambulance came under Israeli fire in the northern and southern Gaza Strip.”
slickweasel333@reddit
What is your point? You asked me to explain the logic.
Leather-Ad-7799@reddit
LOL your source is an IDF released recording debunked as fake 🤣, you just can’t make this shit up.
You use a fake quote as well and link an unrelated news article; peak hasbara
slickweasel333@reddit
The source was a national broadcast on Al Aqsa TV. It's the last paragraph in that link, but it's definitely on subject, especially when the article is all about Hamas using human shields and their statements on the subject.
Why are you getting so defensive over this source?
slickweasel333@reddit
Why do people also refer to Hamas with a K, as in Khamas?
dannywild@reddit
They are making fun of/mimicking the Israeli pronunciation of Hamas.
Siman421@reddit
you know its not an English word though, but one in arabic right? saying it with an h and not the throaty sound is the mistake. the israeli pronunciation is the same as the arabic one and the actually correct one.
Korona82@reddit
This is not accurate. Hamas in Arabic is spelled (حماس) and if you spoke arabic you'd know that the first letter (ح) does not make a kh sound but rather a h sound. if it was khamas then it would be (خماس). source: am arabic speaker
Leather-Ad-7799@reddit
Nothing is funnier then hasbara trying to change even the pronunciation of Hamas and telling people that it’s pronounced the Hebrew way.
“Everything is our culture, kHamas, khummus, all of it” 🤣🤣🤣
snowflake37wao@reddit
Israeli accent or Hebrew?
Days_End@reddit
Arabic aka people who've never heard the word by a native speaker thinking it's pronounced just like it's written in English.
Leather-Ad-7799@reddit
Hamas is an Arabic word, khamas is how Israelis always choose to anúnciate it.
As an Arabic speaker I’d like to politely tell you that you have absolutely no fucking clue what you’re talking about 🤣
Fuzzy_Yogurt_Bucket@reddit
The harder they hit that K, the more reactionary they are.
SaneForCocoaPuffs@reddit
Many Jews who are not native English speakers have trouble pronouncing the letter H
slickweasel333@reddit
That still doesn't explain why OP writes it that way, and they haven't responded.
Leather-Ad-7799@reddit
Zionists online will say KHAMAS instead of Hamas with a ح, something about it meaning violence in Hebrew, just another random bit of “khasbara” 🤣
slickweasel333@reddit
That doesn't make sense, though. Are you a zionist, or are you just choosing to adopt their slang?
Mike_Kermin@reddit
If you say stupid shit in bad faith that'll happen to ya.
We can see your other comments mate. We don't have to pretend everyone time you start posting in bad faith that you've changed man.
Leather-Ad-7799@reddit
Sarcasm is upper level thinking, clearly difficult for most Zionists
Quiet_Firefighter_65@reddit
To make it sound more foreign and therefore scary.
TumbleweedMore4524@reddit
Replying to wewew47...as opposed to Israelis who aren’t also foreign at all and use all English names for their military units, operations, political parties, etc …. That’s just the way Hebrew speakers pronounce the word blud.
tootit74@reddit
It is Pro-palestinians who use it (usually mockingly), not pro-Israelis.
Carlos-_-Danger@reddit
Footage of Hamas firing from the Jabalia medical compound and subsequent explosions
https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/s/DEJ7cwZ4dT
Leather-Ad-7799@reddit
No shortage of propaganda to justify bombing women and children; that sub is unhinged with some absolutely disgusting comments.
Carlos-_-Danger@reddit
I see, we are straight up denying video evidence now lol
Phallindrome@reddit
It doesn't matter if there's video evidence, the existence of a contradictory narrative is the propaganda.
Carlos-_-Danger@reddit
Mind if I ask you to elaborate? I think I know what you mean, you're saying that a narrative is spun up so fast each time that it's an information war?
Phallindrome@reddit
I'm saying anti-Israel fanatics don't need to evaluate whether what they're reading is true or not, they've picked a team and any evidence that doesn't support their choice is morally wrong for existing. In their universe, the worst genocide in history is unequivocally happening right now, and anyone trying to drag them out of that world and into this one is pro-genocide. 'Satanic influences' but leftistly.
Carlos-_-Danger@reddit
Ah agreed. Thanks for humoring me with the explanation 👍
Leather-Ad-7799@reddit
Spliced and edited footage similar to the footage the IDF released previously for the flour massacre?
Let’s get some non embedded on the ground reporting; it’s like you expect me trust the IDF who’ve not only lied but also doctored footage previously lol.
As yall Zionists love to say before blocking; source?
Carlos-_-Danger@reddit
Sure Jan
Leather-Ad-7799@reddit
Source?
Carlos-_-Danger@reddit
I've seen your post history. You don't care about sources, you just care if it supports Israel or not.
And I've already linked the source.
Leather-Ad-7799@reddit
Holy shit your post history has you defending burning children alive in refugee camps; it’s starting to add up 👍🏼
Carlos-_-Danger@reddit
Go ahead and quote where I said that.
Leather-Ad-7799@reddit
lol people can just click you username and see that you said bombing that tent camp was justified because there were secondary explosions which is consistent with “ammo”.
Keyboard munitions expert 🤡🪞
Carlos-_-Danger@reddit
You can't quote me because I didn't say that. Reddit has a "link to this comment" feature. Should be real easy.
Leather-Ad-7799@reddit
This you?
https://www.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/s/r9EFKi3Oim
Carlos-_-Danger@reddit
Where do I say I support the civilian deaths?
Leather-Ad-7799@reddit
You’re literally playing defense for Israel bombing them by saying it sounds like ammo cooking off, where is the lie?
Lmao semantics warrior over here doesn’t understand that defending a fake point used to justify bombing someone is legit just defending that bombing
Carlos-_-Danger@reddit
Ah, ha, I see, I didn't actually say it, but I might as well have according to you.
Leather-Ad-7799@reddit
That’s not the gotcha you think it is. No one believes you aren’t defending it by playing devils advocate and linking the combatfootage sub which spews the most dehumanizing comments that defend bombing civilians daily 🤣.
You Zionists love to pretend you’re so smart lol, playing semantics games and using “I didn’t literally say bombing civilians was ok, I’m just defending that there was ammo at the site” so that Israel can claim there was a valid target.
🤡🪞
Carlos-_-Danger@reddit
Back to the attacking the messenger strategy, I see.
Leather-Ad-7799@reddit
That’s a video posted on a right wing subreddit; got a verified source for the video/reporting on that incident?
Again just to be clear no source?
Carlos-_-Danger@reddit
Nice disparaging the messenger. Again, the video source is linked.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/s/Nns32xWNPQ
Leather-Ad-7799@reddit
Ok so you’re either a bot or you can’t speak English; post the source of the video for that Reddit post and a link to reporting on the origins. If it’s just IDF propaganda spoonfed from and X account you just say “I support the IDF released footage and their statement”. Stop spamming with absolutely unverified claims literally made by a genocidal regime looking to excuse bombing every hospital, orphanage, school, 66% of buildings and now claim they want to occupy and settle Gaza
You’re playing defense for those who history will inevitably call the bad guys and this is supposed to help you sleep at night 😬
Carlos-_-Danger@reddit
And this is what's called attacking the messenger, not the message. We literally have video footage. And the link clearly states who released it. Why are you being so disingenuous and defensive over this video?
Leather-Ad-7799@reddit
Ouf the propagandist is upset that he can’t cite sources for his spoonfed video and IDF statement 🤣
Next you’ll be pointing to a calendar saying it’s the terrorists who were on watch during those days abdolute comedy
Carlos-_-Danger@reddit
So you can't and won't post the quote of what I said. Got it.
Now let's get back to the video footage of gunmen shooting from the hospital.
Rikeka@reddit
And many pro-terrorist bots will defend Hamas no matter what, celebrate their very few victories and then act surprised when the gloves are off.
Carlos-_-Danger@reddit
Is this the same hospital IDF released footage of? It sure does look like it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/s/DEJ7cwZ4dT
You can see gunmen firing from inside the windows and the subsequent explosions.
Syrairc@reddit
What hospital? The only mention of hospitals in the article are that they were told to evacuate them.
Carlos-_-Danger@reddit
It doesn't mention this specific hospital but alludes to a hospital. The IDF press release does specify the hospital, though, and it's in the same area of Jabaliya.
Syrairc@reddit
It literally says which hospital if you read more than the four line summary. The comment you linked has the IDF striking an UNWRA medical clinic.
The article also does not mention strikes on hospitals at all... it was strikes on houses.
Carlos-_-Danger@reddit
Oh damn you're right, I stopped reading after the sponsored content part, because I thought it was all ads from there. I'll correct my post. It turns out the IDF also didn't say which clinic it was, so it could still be a lost-in-translation moment when someone refers to a hospital as a clinic.
Syrairc@reddit
Fair enough! Thanks for being civil.
Carlos-_-Danger@reddit
No problem! And you as well.
solo-ran@reddit
Do I have to have a tag or something to comment?
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