Why do some people solo at 50 hours and other people at 15 hours?
Posted by PooPooPointBoiz@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 158 comments
Does it all come down to how the CFI thinks the student is progressing? Or is there a difference in how a school like ATP would do it vs a mom and pop flight school?
TheKujo17@reddit
I'm not a CFI but I'd imagine you can tell that a student who does 15 hours of landings and pattern work in 7 days has a more predictable grasp of safely landing vs a 40 hour student who flies 1 per week for almost a year.
Draager77@reddit
Ya. I solo’d after 12 hours. But covid hit hard during the my upper air work, lots of bad weather, many delays, so had to do many review flights and second lessons for a year. Eventually passed my exam at 80 hours.
PooPooPointBoiz@reddit (OP)
I have a friend who did ATP to get their PPL/instrument/MEI/etc and he said he didn't solo until like hour 40.
And I'd assume he was hitting it pretty hard with very regular flying.
Speedbird844@reddit
Just because you fly all the time doesn't mean you'll be up to solo standard by hour 15. Flying is an entirely new motor skill and some people just "get it" (especially the very young) but others take more time to learn. It's like learning to drive, some just get it straight away, but most take time. Or learning to draw a realistic sketch portrait, some can just freehand it as if it's completely natural to them, while others had to learn specific methods from books and needing to use grids.
I've been flight simming since I was 10 and I took far longer than most (close to 50 hrs as I took a 3 year break, changed schools and A/C type) before I first soloed. The sensations, the need to set the horizon 1/3 of the windscreen for S&L, and the need to correctly trim is not something that people just "get" naturally, and obviously not in home flight simulators. And then there's pattern work as well learning to spot and mind-map the location of other aircraft in the vicinity. Plus engine failure and glide approach/flapless procedures.
A student can stumble on any one of those before first solo, but the overwhelming majority can do it if given enough time. Just like there are very, very few people who truly cannot learn how to drive a car.
indecisivepansexual@reddit
ATP requires 41.5 hours minimum to be allowed to solo. It’s not up to the student and good performance won’t accelerate the solo stage.
PooPooPointBoiz@reddit (OP)
Oof. That sounds like a money grab.
AlbiMappaMundi@reddit
Not really...only ten hours of solo time is required for the Private. More/earlier solo time doesn't necessarily accelerate a student's preparedness for the checkride.
PooPooPointBoiz@reddit (OP)
Yeah, but isn't 40 the legal minimum to get the entire PPL? Or does ATP structure it different where you might solo at 41.5-50 hours, but soon after you're 100% ready for your check ride?
TristanwithaT@reddit
I’d estimate that at least 90% of student pilots aren’t ready for their checkride at 40 hours.
yorgee52@reddit
They would be if they had better instructors.
Vailacs@reddit
You might get downvoted but its pretty true .i worked as a 141 instructor and everyone was checkride ready right in between 40 and 50 hrs. I soloed 76 students and maybe 4 went outside the syllabus and solos beyond 12.5 hrs. Granted this was a non towered field and we were brutally efficient with out time.
AlbiMappaMundi@reddit
Can't speak for ATP specifically, I teach part 61. But very rarely is a student ready at 40 hours - 60-80 hours is much more realistic, particularly at busy airports. While it feels very special to fly solo for the first time, it's not that significant from a training perspective. The goal is learn all of the required maneuvers to ACS standards, develop good communication/situational awareness/risk management skills, and meet all of the aeronautical experience requirements - and frankly, as an instructor, I don't want to put a 10 hour student in the cockpit solo without being certain that they can handle unforeseen situations, manage emergencies, handle ATC communications, etc.
X-T3PO@reddit
I solo’d at one of the busiest GA airports in the country (at the time), at 17.1 hours. When I was instructing my students took around 20-22 hours. One as low as 14. 40 hours to solo is ridiculous.
yorgee52@reddit
It’s all part of the money grab. Everything in aviation is grossly overpriced. I’m surprised companies aren’t getting hit with price gouging and market manipulation.
beastpilot@reddit
Wouldn't the total number of hours required to get a rating be more important to understanding a money grab than just time to solo?
Would you rather solo at 8 hours and get you ticket at 75 or solo at 40 and get your ticket at 60?
AlbiMappaMundi@reddit
The point of flight training isn't to solo, it's to pass the checkride. There is no arbitrary 'right' time to solo, nor is earlier better than later in the arc of training.
ElderberryCareful479@reddit
I'll add that at the school my son goes to (MGA) they do not solo until after their first stage check, I'm pretty sure he's at or close to 40hrs now and has his stage check this Sunday. So not just ATP on this.
slpater@reddit
You need 200 for commercial anyway (ATP does hours of sim time to hit 250) so why rush through a PPL? Why rush to solo? (There are reasons why but within how ATP flies it doesn't make sense for them to rush it) the average student realistically needs about 60 hours to be ready for a PPL checkride anyway.
ATP also has 141 style stage checks for their own internal reasons to keep an eye on student progress that do add on a few flights.
dubvee16@reddit
Its structured differently because you still have to have 250 to complete all of required checkrides through MEI. There is no point in rushing it when every student is aiming for the airlines.
I think the number was around 70 hrs for PPL.
indecisivepansexual@reddit
It is. The solo stages in private pilot and CFI academy are the most likely stages for someone to fail out. ATP still gets 10s of thousands of dollars even if some fails as “early” as the solo stage due to how their hour requirements work.
Skydance98@reddit
I was doing my checkride then. When does ATP send folks off for checkrides?
Ok_Independent_7499@reddit
I’m at 32.5 hrs. and I’m just now gearing up for my solo here in 2 weeks. By then I’ll probably be at the 40 hrs mark or a little less.
RW-One@reddit
I am a CFII but rotorcraft. I'm sure the same things apply:
Safe operation of said aircraft.
Continued consistent performance on maneuvers in the pattern from lifting off to setting down, plus pertinent emergency procedures
It doesn't have to be pretty, but safe and repeatable.
Time will vary for all types of students, but when you reach what I outlined above, then for physically flying solo, you're ready.
Aero knowledge is set by CFR's and the instructor's / schools pre solo test to check that.
Traditional_Tip6294@reddit
Some people are better pilots naturally and some people have better instructors and some people choose schools with different training philosophies
Severe-Importance-98@reddit
yeah ... those naturally gifted bird people ... obviously
Traditional_Tip6294@reddit
You have never instructed if you don’t know some people are naturally better
PooPooPointBoiz@reddit (OP)
So it is a reflection of aptitude/skill?
Traditional_Tip6294@reddit
Sometimes and sometimes it’s the other two things I listed
calvinb1nav@reddit
I soloed at 35 hours, mainly due to flying only a once a week or so, sometimes with a month gap due to maintenance, weather, etc. And that's after having 1400 hours as a B-1B navigator (though it had been 14+ years since I flew in the Air Force and when I did my PPL). I struggled with cross wind landings and my CFI's previous student had run off the runway due to a bad cross wind landing and so he was extra hesitant to sign me off. Also, since I'm planning to get my CFI, I wasn't in a big hurry because the hours count towards the CPL.
Naive-Nobody-5261@reddit
I think a lot of it can depended on the training schedule. I solo'd around 28 hours. I bet I could have done it 5-10 hours earlier, if I had only ever focused on pattern work and landings up to that point. However, my flight school's (a part 141) curriculum has lots of stuff that we practice and work on pre-solo, like slow flight, stalls, EPs, steep turns, ground ref maneuvers, etc. By adding in a bunch of other stuff to practice before you solo, you're obviously going to increase the time it takes to get to that point.
My best guess is that people that solo with very low hours probably only practice pattern work and landings from the beginning of their training.
Frankly, I don't see the rush to solo as fast as possible. Seems like a pissing contest to me
BackgroundComplex397@reddit
People are different and progress at different rates
PooPooPointBoiz@reddit (OP)
So it is a reflection of aptitude/skill?
TravisJungroth@reddit
No idea why this is being downvoted. The answer is yes.
People dramatically underestimate how different people. The most ignored thing is background. A Paramedic who rides dirt bikes is going to probably progress faster than a Copywriter without a driver’s license. A huge difference in experience with handling machines and immediate situations.
PooPooPointBoiz@reddit (OP)
So if you're better at operating machinery and have a decent spacial awareness, that translates fairly well to flying?
Or does that just create habits that need to be broken? I raced clunkers, driven manual cars all my life, ridden motorcycles and dirt bikes. I like to think that I'm pretty intune with my machine.
No_Mathematician9389@reddit
IMHO - no riding motorcycles and driving manual cars does not translate to an increased ability to fly an airplane. Decision making, stress management, multitasking, time and dedication outside of the airplane will probably be the most impactful factors.
Someone who’s used an at home sim like MSFS with a basic yoke, throttle and rudder pedals will likely have an easier time than someone who rides a motorcycle with 0 flight control experience. Previous radio communication experience from another career can be helpful as well.
TravisJungroth@reddit
Have you taught someone who has never done any of this? In my experience, the difference is obvious. It may just be a common variable, like people with more capability with machines tend to do these things.
NoahTVisuals@reddit
I agree with this as well from personal experience.
I drive stick, and when I was learning to fly I was finding lots of similarities in the relationship between power (throttle) and energy (shifting) to feel pretty similar.
It’s hard to explain, but it helped me for sure.
No_Mathematician9389@reddit
Yeah and I just don’t think there’s a clear connection. I think there may be some benefits on the knowledge side though. For example i had a Harley mechanic for a student and learning about the engine and carburetors was much easier for him vs students who started little to no knowledge of engines and carbs.
As for the flying side I just dont think having "more capability with machines" translates to any benefit. Not in my head or in my experience. I dont mean to be dismissive of your opinion though. Not to be discouraging but I dont want OP thinking he will be some sort of natural when in reality controlling an airplane is very unique and different than controlling a motorcycles or manual cars.
TravisJungroth@reddit
Both are true. In teaching terms, one is called transference and the other is interference. Generally, the overall effect is positive.
dmspilot00@reddit
Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't. Bad luck with weather, aircraft maintenance, bad instruction, etc. can inflate the number too.
RV144rs@reddit
Agreed but I would exchange ‘bad’ instruction for maybe inadequate instruction. Maybe I’m an optimist, but I like to think that most CFIs are good just not good for everyone.
janerbabi@reddit
I appreciate your balanced perspective.
stuck_zipper@reddit
Sometimes people just want to wait until they are 100% confident.
bhalter80@reddit
Why wouldn't it be?
PooPooPointBoiz@reddit (OP)
Well, a lot of people here are saying that's just a very small portion of it.
bhalter80@reddit
Knowledge and managing your resources are necessary skills it's not just about operating the machine
EntroperZero@reddit
It's a reflection of a million different variables, aptitude and skill being two of them.
graaaaaaaam@reddit
Not even a little bit. I was "ready" to solo at 10 hours but it was closer to 25 because my medical took longer than expected and then we had a month long stretch of IFR conditions, so I got my instrument time knocked off before I soloed. Those types of delays are incredibly common.
cessnahhh@reddit
I soloed around 40 hours because I didn’t have the confidence in myself. My CFI was ready to push me out long before that.
ComprehensiveEar7218@reddit
It could be aptitude, skill, determination, availability, money, environmental factors, maintenance factors, a whole host of variables.
ryan0157@reddit
It’s hard to pin it down to just one or two points. When I was an instructor I had one student who flew once a month (if the weather allowed), she was never going to solo at that rate and she knew it. I had another student who flew 3-5 times a week but just couldn’t keep herself from panicking to ever be proficient. Yet another student flew twice a week and she flew better than I did. Depends on the person and their goals
josh--sacto@reddit
As someone in commercial right now, it’s important to stop assessing oneself against others as soon as possible. Doing so only impairs the joy of flying.
Great pilots are born, but they’re also trained. Just because someone isn’t as fast out of the gates doesn’t mean they can’t train to be an exceptional pilot down the line.
PooPooPointBoiz@reddit (OP)
Good to know
josh--sacto@reddit
One more thing I want to add: weather is huge. I’m doing this in Texas right now and if IFR conditions mean that your time slot is cancelled while your friend gets all of their afternoon slots as VFR, that’s not your fault. Sometimes you just get bad cards. Sometimes you sign up for an accelerated program like me, but for the above reasons, it’s near impossible to get more than two flights a week. And it’s so much harder to learn soft field landings when you only do them once a week and it’s crosswindy as hell (but don’t worry, you’ll grow to love them 🤣)
Bastards_Sword@reddit
When I was training last year I had a friend who started pretty close to me. He soloed after about 16 hours, I solod at 30. I finished my ppl, he still hasn't done his checkride.
Everyone is different and excels and struggles at different points.
PooPooPointBoiz@reddit (OP)
So I guess solo'ing is mostly for bragging rights and not much else?
Or after you solo, does that mean that you can fly more solo flights with your CFI watching, and that means you pay for plane rental only and not instruction? So you save some money?
Bastards_Sword@reddit
You have to have a specific amount of solo hours, depending on if you are part 61 or 141 I believe, but it's just part of the overall process. It doesn't really change anything how soon you solo, just the sooner you do the sooner you move onto the next lesson.
Nikonshooter35@reddit
Don't forget, some schools won't solo you until around that time. I had a friend who went to embry riddle a few years back, when he came back from winter break during his first semester, he had something around 50 hours and said he was just about to solo.
I was dumbfounded but apparently that's how it goes over there.
Icommentwhenhigh@reddit
The syllabus to safe solo is a minimum of 7 hours. That’s assuming your instructor has demonstrated ever manoeuvre, and has observed you performing the same manouver to a standard laid out in federal regulations.
That’s an ideal scenario where you eat breath and study the material for 7-14 days straight , and flying every day. In the college environment I first started with, most of the others took 10-20 hours iirc.
There’s always were a few that start learning with preconceived ideas, maybe have communications issues interpersonal issues, decision making difficulties or very unique learning styles. So they need to build a few other skills along the way. There’s a huge number of reasons.
On that note however. : It shouldn’t be thought as meaning there’s an innate inability, or being lesser. I’ve seen some of the most humble awkward baby pilots grow up to start amazing careers.
kommandee@reddit
Skill issue
hhmb8k@reddit
I think it's mostly based on how good looking you are.
I got my solo endorsement during my discovery flight.
PutOptions@reddit
I solo'd at just under 40 hours. Instructor was ready to endorse at around 30. I was happy to have the extra pattern hours under my belt that day; there were 6 planes in the pattern at one point. I was making right traffic, left traffic, left 360, right 360, extended up & downwinds, S turns on final. Didn't bother me too much at the time but I now look back at it as a shit show for a first solo.
First solo hours ranged all over the map at the time from 20 hours to never.
Whitewind101@reddit
I solod at 40 hours but I was reassured many times not to worry, I learnt at an airport that was 1000ft long with a fence and main road at each end, when I asked about the hours I was told you could always go to the next town and learn on the 10000 rwy and as long as you touch it that's fine. Needless to say the students that did lean on that big ass rwy never came to our little airport as it was too small to land on.
nascent_aviator@reddit
Too many possible factors to list. Student aptitude. Instructor aptitude. Lesson length. Amount of time spent actually flying as opposed to taxiing or holding short. Order of instruction topics. Expectations to see in a soloing student (on a scale from "95% sure the plane will still be usable" to "consistently lands to better than ACS standards"). Medical issues. Etc etc etc.
At my school we didn't start doing pattern work on earnest until after all the other maneuvers. Naturally this meant I soloed later than if we had rushed into pattern work.
Goodbyes96@reddit
It depends on Students progress and their grasp of knowledge and flying.
I solo’d at 20-22 hours i think. Flew bout 2-3 times a week.
I couldnt do full time since i work full time 45-55 hours a week and went to school right after
krudhead@reddit
I solo’d after 4 hours. cFI had a heart attack and died during a maneuver session. Crazy shit
Top_Finding_5526@reddit
It’s mostly going to be aptitude at flying but it also depends on the school requirements that are taught. I know some schools that just verify you can slow flight. Take off and land in the pattern and will solo you. I completed my school’s requirements at the bare minimum level of hours/ flights and solo’d at like 19 hours. My school required memorization of emergency procedures, and I had to completely understand sectionals and every system in the plane in detail. As well as have a certain amount of landings. Pattern work. And some basic maneuvers.
card_shart@reddit
I soloed at 50 hours.
My first 10 hours or so, I was scared of the plane.
I was ready around 20-ish.
I only got my medical issued around 50.
There were many concepts I grasped quicker than most and some I still struggle with. It is what it is.
PooPooPointBoiz@reddit (OP)
What took so long with medical?
card_shart@reddit
I have posted about it a few times here. TLDR, I was beaten the crap out of my parents and was diagnosed with depression and anxiety while in high school. I didn't agree with the diagnosis and neither did the AME or psychologist. I got the psych eval and such prior to most of the flying and it took a few months for it to be issued. I kept flying because I loved it.
PooPooPointBoiz@reddit (OP)
You had to go thorugh the HIMS route and pay for an evaluation out of pocket?
card_shart@reddit
No HIMS program as I never took any medication. I did use a "senior" HIMSAME, and paid for a consult and the psych eval.
Formulant@reddit
Some people learn fast and others don't.
PooPooPointBoiz@reddit (OP)
So it is a reflection of aptitude/skill?
Pilot125@reddit
Dog, you've had tons of eloquent answers to this question so I'll keep this short: no. Why do you keep asking? Did you recently solo early in training and just want an ATP to tell you that you're the next Maverick?
LearningToFlyForFree@reddit
Are you part parrot or is this the only thought you can muster?
MonkMean6918@reddit
Why do you keep asking this same question on every response. You aren’t satisfied with the responses you are getting or you yourself think it’s only based on aptitude/skill?
pilotjlr@reddit
Why do you keep asking that? No, it’s not aptitude or skill. I’ve flown with brilliant people who just needed longer to learn flying. Just how it is.
mrboxeebox@reddit
Buddy it's not necessarily about aptitude/skill like you keep trying to make it be. Some people take fewer lessons a week. Some schools just teach all maneuvers and do solo later in the lesson plan then your cross country. It's not a race to be the first.
Flytheskies81@reddit
For me, it took till hour 27. Just couldn't get the landings down. Was trying to do it my own way and fighting the procedure. Once I understood the shift your eyes down the runway portion, then my landings improved tremendously. That was the only thing that was preventing me from going solo.
DueRequirement1440@reddit
Not every hour is equal. I was learning to land in Central NY in the winter. If we were able to fly, we frequently did a couple circuits and decided that the conditions were just too rough to be productive and land. It's still 0.8 to 1.0 hour in my logbook.
csl512@reddit
Time holding short or #5 in sequence still counts for total time
segelflugzeugdriver@reddit
Some flight schools are trying to bleed people dry, can't forget that. In Canada through the career program most people solo before ten hours, but they also fly twice a day every day.
49Flyer@reddit
Yes to both. A busy Part 141 school is going to have a structured curriculum that all students and instructors must follow and generally isn't going to allow deviations. When I was working on my private, for example, I was already doing cross-country flights before soloing. An independent CFI or a Part 61 school, on the other hand, is likely to take a more individualized and flexible approach with each student.
That being said, different people progress at different rates and it is ultimately the CFI's judgement that determines when a student is ready to solo. Different CFIs also have different levels of experience and different levels of comfort soloing students at varying levels of competence. While the ACS provides objective standards that must be met on a checkride, no such standards exist for a solo endorsement so it again comes down to the individual CFI's judgement.
Shinsf@reddit
Some students are good some suck Some instructors are good some suck
zhelih@reddit
Some days weather is good some sucks
I_fondled_Scully@reddit
Is it standard for a flight school to have a stage check (mini checkride with oral exam) with the chief pilot prior to getting the solo endorsement? Or do some schools just have your CFI just give you the endorsement themselves?
Mispelled-This@reddit
Student progress and CFI nerves are big factors. But so is the environment; training at a busy towered airport means you must learn certain skills before solo that a pilot training at a sleepy non-towered airport can learn later, likely when they get to XC training.
PooPooPointBoiz@reddit (OP)
When you're allowed to solo does that essentially mean that you're taught and capable enough to manuver different class airspace and know how to communicate with ATC like a pro?
Or could a the first solo be as simple as knowing how to take off, fly, land, and communicate with planes around you at an untowered airport?
Mispelled-This@reddit
A first solo is typically three laps in the pattern at your home airport.
If that airport has a tower, then you need to be able to talk to ATC, which is a big hurdle for most student pilots. And they have to be able to do it while flying a plane, which they’re also still learning how to do.
mage_tyball@reddit
Some students take a long time, some don't. Some schools have structured syllabi where soloing happens fairly late, some don't.
As long as there's progress there's nothing to worry about. Nobody cares how long it took someone to solo.
PooPooPointBoiz@reddit (OP)
So if you solo at 50 hours and get your PPL at 100, it doesn't really matter in the longer run if you're looking to make it a career, because theres plenty more flying to be done before the commercial 250 hour mark?
mage_tyball@reddit
It doesn't matter unless you plan to solo or get your license as cheaply as possible and then stop flying. Most pilots I know don't plan on stopping at 50 or 100 hours, or ever. In the grand scheme of things it just doesn't matter that much.
chillflyer@reddit
I soloed one kid at 8 hours! He was sharp as a tack and got everything I showed him the first time. I've never seen anything like it! He was a sponge for knowledge.
PooPooPointBoiz@reddit (OP)
To solo what do you need to be able to do? Just take off, fly a pattern, and land?
Or do you need to know everything from ATC communications at a towered airport, flying out 10 miles, turning around, and communicating with ATC again and landing?
usmcmech@reddit
The main factor is taxi time to the runway and flight time to the practice area. If you are at a small uncontrolled airport with a practice area 5 minutes away you will save 5-10 hours minimum in your pre solo training. If you fly out of Addison TX you will spend a lot longer just getting out of the airport and out towards empty airspace.
slpater@reddit
100% fly out of a busy delta that has about a 10-15 minute flight to get to the practice area plus it can take 40 minutes getting off the ground sometimes.
Weaponized_Puddle@reddit
There’s literally hundreds of reasons.
It comes down to the students learning speed, how the school structures their training progression, and when the CFI feels comfortable to solo.
In some cases, people start training when they can’t legally solo. Waiting for medical, under 16 yo, etc..
PooPooPointBoiz@reddit (OP)
So it is a reflection of aptitude/skill?
bhalter80@reddit
There are reasons I don't play in the NBA either. Even though our society seems to get all triggered when you say some people aren't cut out to do some things it's 100% true
mkosmo@reddit
It can be. It can also be just learning speed. Everybody is different.
temphandsome@reddit
some people just need more time. one of my students soloed at 48 hours. He would have been ready earlier, but for some reason, every single time, right before touch down, he would add random left rudder. so it took a while to break that habit. he would try to fix his lateral position with the rudder instead of banking to get back over the center line, but still using the rudder to keep aligned with the runway. so every landing was going to be a really bad side load.
bhalter80@reddit
It comes down to ability and mindset. To solo someone I have to have confidence that they have the skills to operate the aircraft normally in a wide set of conditions, and handle most emergencies. That's to get to being an airplane operations technician :). Now to be a solo pilot they also have to have the mindset to be in charge, the assertiveness to run the flight, they have to not be looking over at me constantly for confirmation because I won't be there, they have to be able to handle ATC and they have to be able to handle light light planning duties.
Some people can do this at 15 hours some can't do it at 1500 but I won't be signing you off unless I'm pretty sure you're coming back in 1 piece with a reusable airplane and without the feds asking a bunch of questions
Candle1822@reddit
I just did my solo after 19 hours. I came in with a hefty background in aviation and I have tried my best to fly 3 times per week booking 2 hour slots each time which gets around 1.5 hours of flight on average. I also have been staying 1 to 2 sections ahead on sportys of what we are doing in the plane. Our flight school did require a “stage check” which was an hour ground and 2 hour flight with a different instructor that had to sign off before we could solo to make sure there is fresh eyes on each student beforehand.
Just comes down to repetition in my opinion.
JimNtexas@reddit
I soled at seven hours. But I’m far from Bob Hover level. That was 1970, flying a J-3 Cub from a grass strip. The J-3 had to be hand propped as it had no electric system.
This was flying in its simplest form.
reve-dore@reddit
I also solo’d in 7 hours in a J3 Cub in 2014!
PooPooPointBoiz@reddit (OP)
Did you get your tail wheel endorsement at the same time? Or were there no rules for nose vs tail wheel flying back then?
Anonymous5791@reddit
Those rules came into effect in 1994. So no.
falcopilot@reddit
There are, as noted lots of factors. I'm \~25 hours myself, flying about three times a week, and was right on the edge of solo, e.g, possibly the next lesson, at about 18 hours. Then circumstances forced a two week break, and my next flight out it felt like my first flight- nothing felt automatic. Now I'm clawing it back.
Yesterday I squeaked a couple good ones, but was also flying cross-wind with coaching I shouldn't have needed if I were flying straight landings, so... maybe tomorrow?
At a part 61 school (as I am) the order is also different. I've flown most if not all of the things I need for a checkride at least once, lots of to/from practice area, and so on; if it'd just been climb, straight and level, turn, descent, and flying the pattern, probably I could have soloed in 15 or fewer hours... so long as nothing went wrong.
Flanked77@reddit
I’m soloing at 47 hours on Thursday. I’m also flying out of a class c airspace where you have jets landing on the parallel runway and a lot more things going on both in and around the airport. I’m more than proficient in the plane for a solo, but the extra time is needed to safely navigate the airspace. For me, at least.
dusty8385@reddit
Evaluator bias.
I mean not always, You get students who have gone through cadets and have learned a lot of flying already. If they studied hard they may show up almost ready to fly, especially if they've already flown gliders.
Sometimes a student has a bad day and the evaluator decides they're not competent and makes them do it again and again and again.
Doing it perfectly the first time is a big deal. I feel there's a lot of bias in this just because a student misses a button doesn't mean they're a terrible student but they do need to do it well before they can fly. I think the problem is often the student is not clearly told what the expectations are before they fly. This then causes them to have to fly more before they can go solo.
Then of course you have the old standby, student doesn't study enough. Flight instructors get rated based on their pass rate. So if a flight instructor thinks you're not going to pass or at least you're not going to pass quickly, they're motivated to help you less and work with someone else more. I think this is bad and aviation should do better but the emphasis is on good pilots not on good training.
NuttPunch@reddit
Skill issues and overly cautious instructors are the result of 50hr solos.
jumpifnotequal@reddit
My grandfather apparently solo’d at like 4 hours, but this was well back in the day when anybody would let you do anything
DDX1837@reddit
Not necessarily.
Not necessarily.
1) Different people learn at different speeds.
2) The biggest factor (IMO) is how often they are flying. One hour every two weeks and it's going to take a long time before solo. Two hours 3 days a week and you'll solo much faster.
PrayForWaves117@reddit
The 141 university I taught at and a different 141 university I trained at solo wasn’t until lesson 40 something.
user1928473829@reddit
That’s insane. I thought my 141 was a scam. My students soloed at lesson 22. 40s was all checkride prep with 49 being the checkride itself
jet-setting@reddit
To be fair, lesson 40 isn’t necessarily flight lesson 40. There could be 10 or more ground/sim lessons.
I taught at a 141 university and our solo “lesson was 18, but that was actually the 12th flight (including stage check) because lesson 1,2,7,10,14,17 were briefings or sims.
It was also relatively common to skip the solo and move on to night or dual XC flights and return back to the solo a bit later. Either for weather, student experience/skill/plateau, scheduling, etc.
Crusoebear@reddit
WTH?
CompleteEffort1@reddit
Some people study and have natural ability and some people would rather have the CFI spoon feed them everything and also suck ass at flying in general
snoandsk88@reddit
All things being equal, the biggest factor when I was instructing was personality. I simply wasn’t going to put someone in a situation that scared the crap out of them and got them to do something stupid.
For example I once had an aircraft owner who wanted to learn in her husband’s aircraft, only problem was, that aircraft was a Cirrus SR22T… that’s a lot of airplane for a student pilot. She was one of the best students I ever had, knew the manuals back to front, but she was intimidated by the airplane (rightly so) and we just continued on with the rest of the cross country and check ride prep, she didn’t solo it until about a week prior to the check ride at just over 75 hrs. Most of that was to do with the high performance aircraft, but I wouldn’t have solo’d her in a C152 at 15hrs.
PROfessorShred@reddit
My school is a part 141. Its built into our FAA approved curriculum to solo at a specific lesson number. You could have retraining before that point and have more hours but for the most part for us, it's at like 25 hours or something for solo.
Pear-Proud@reddit
Part 61 (“mom & pop”) experience: I got permission to solo around 15 hours, but chose not to until closer to 25. Training was going well, and a lot of concepts were starting to make sense. I didn’t want to sacrifice my peak learning just to notch my belt. When you go to a part 61, you ultimately dictate the pace and content of your own training.
X-T3PO@reddit
Instructors milking the student for money and hours instead of getting them trained expeditiously.
Instructors who don’t know what they’re doing, are incompetent, shouldn’t be teaching.
Students who don’t schedule enough (schedule 4-5x per week, fly average of 3x per week).
Intentional design of the training curriculum.
Factors beyond the student’s control: instructors keep leaving, planes keep breaking, weather, impossible to schedule frequently enough.
Student’s fault: not trying, not paying attention or not doing what they’re told, can’t learn, not suited for flying.
TheAceOfSpades115@reddit
My part 61 school made us do informal stage checks, plus we had to fly in the DC SFRA national security area which added flight time. Also, if you learn to fly beginning in the winter/spring like I did, only flying once a week, expect to be rusty and lose all progress on landings regularly.
scarletpimpernel22@reddit
some people are ready to solo at 15 and some are ready to solo at 50.
/thread
scubaty2@reddit
Skill difference
SandySprings67@reddit
Some of this boils down to the student’ choice as well. Not everyone is looking to finish their training as soon as possible. Some people are looking to finish their training as safely as possible. There is no doubt that everyone’s first solo is a potentially dangerous event. The more prepared you are for it the less dangerous it will be.
adaylatadollarshort@reddit
My instructor told me he was getting out and I begged him not to. I soloed a few hours later, I think at 20 hrs. And felt entirely confident. My friend who started learning after me, soloed at 8 hours….he crashed into a snow bank when landing on his first solo. So yeah I agree with you…..:)
8349932@reddit
It's prob easier to get a CFI to sign off on a low time solo at a small rural airfield than a Class D in socal.
Also depends on the cfi. Mine was not a "send it" kind of guy. I felt ready to solo the pattern around hour 12 but didn't solo til hour 23 due to a different student having a runway excursion upon landing.
My friend didn't solo til hour 60 or so and then promptly quit.
Logical-Vacation@reddit
Location is a big factor. It naturally took grandpa way less time to be ready to handle the local possibilities solo from an Iowa farm field than it would for someone today in LA at a busy class D between a B and C.
theheadfl@reddit
I think an underrated component of this is how complicated is your training environment, and how efficient are you able to be in getting in reps on the critical pre-solo tasks?
I instruct primarily at an extremely busy Class D that is highly space-constrained underneath a very busy Class B. It is very hard to get students comfortable with the basic stick-and-rudder stuff and also at the same time making sure their radio skills and situational awareness in an insane environment like that is sufficient to safely fly solo. It's also a good 15 minute flight to the practice area, plus usually a solid 15 minute wait to depart. So a tight 2 hour block where we fly 1.6 is usually more like 1 hour of actual productive flying, at best. Consequently, it takes a long time to solo students there, since I want them well-advanced in their training before I send them out alone into that mess. (In fact, sometimes we have to fly to nearby uncontrolled fields to solo when this becomes a major blocker)
To contrast, I also sometimes instruct at a local private airstrip, ~2500x50ft paved. The limiting factor on how quickly you can depart is how fast you can run checklists and get the oil temp up high enough. There is virtually never any pattern traffic, and it sits right adjacent to a huge practice area. 1.6 hours hobbs is easily 1.4-1.5 hours real, productive flying time. It is very easy for me to get a student to where I am comfortable with them managing the situation in that traffic pattern solo.
Now, which student is more prepared for "real flying"? Undoubtedly the busy Class D student. But generally the sleepy private airport student is going to be better stick-and-rudder simply because they can get so many reps!
cowlove72@reddit
So many factors. School, curriculum, CFI, frequency of lessons, or challenges like weather or plane availability. But I insist that by far the most important factor is student aptitude and work ethic. Consistently show up for lessons completely unprepared and staring at your phone while basically being talked at? Gonna be a long, long while vs a student who consistently studies, chair flies, and keeps up a good tempo of lessons.
PooPooPointBoiz@reddit (OP)
Do people really drop 15-20k on PPL lessons only to stare at their phone and goof off? Wtf?
Anonymous5791@reddit
It’s more not showing up ready to learn, not having done your homework and reading, and not asking intelligent questions vs instead wanting to be spoon fed the information.
The flying is really easy. Seriously the easiest part of all of this. The rules and theory are not intuitive, and being able to then integrate into the flying are where it gets tricky. This is why it’s essential to study ahead of time when your instructor tells you to.
Some people also just have more altitude than others, too.
dmspilot00@reddit
Hand-eye coordination and how quickly you learn are important. The younger you are, the better. If you play sports, video games, or a musical instrument, those things seem to help.
Frequency of flying, type of airport (solo at a Class C/D will take longer than a small uncontrolled field in the country), instructor quality, good luck with weather/scheduling/maintenance, etc. are all factors as well.
Students who study the AFH, chair fly, and review their lessons mentally in between will progress faster.
Used_Song7579@reddit
If it takes you 50 hours to solo you are on the long side of the bell curve. By a lot. 15 hours is doable at a Class D or non-towered field if you are a quick learner. Low 20s was the average for my students out of AUS. Keep in mind taxi time is flight time, and you also have to fly further to practice areas at Class C fields. So those hours will be greater.
Purgent@reddit
I soloed at 6 hours and got my PPL right after passing 40h.
There is a huge variance in teaching / learning styles. I have no data, but I’d say that has about 50% of the impact while the other 50% is the aptitude, willingness to learn and study, and confidence of the student.
Shrekbotz@reddit
I think it depends on the school and the CFI. Let’s be honest, I think 90% of people can solo at 10 hours if you solely do landings for those 10 hours. Well what if that student goes solo and needs to slow flight, or they stall? What if they are asked to do an S turn on final? I think the time it takes to solo isn’t important, since there’s so much more to private pilot training then soloing.
TigerpilotKFUL@reddit
61.87(d)(1-15) lists the training requirements for solo. It includes stalls, ground reference maneuvers, slow flight etc… so legally a CFI can’t just take a student up into the pattern until they can land a plane then sign them off to solo. Have to receive and log training in these 15 areas first.
bluejayfreeloader@reddit
Someone correct me if I'm wrong:
There's a checklist that your CFI has to sign off that you're familiar with each one. If you ain't familiar with one, you ain't flying solo.
Circle_Runner@reddit
Yep, 61.87. And not just be familiar, but be proficient and safe.
temphandsome@reddit
that is correct. its in part 61. requirements for a solo. and there is a long list.
the_silent_one1984@reddit
Lots of factors.
If you've got a pilot in your immediate family and you've flown with them frequently as a child, then you've got a huge advantage over someone who hasn't.
If you're a "full-time" student who doesn't have any distractions like work and family, and can really put in a lot more hours in studying and practice, then that's also a big advantage.
If you are self-motivated with a positive attitude, and aren't doing this "just because your parents want you to be a pilot" or "I don't care about stall practice, just let me fly" then that's also an advantage.
If your CFI is good and teaches you well, and you have a good dynamic going on, that's also a big factor.
If your school is 141 it is far more structured than part 61. I've noticed a lot of the students who solo at less than 20 hours have a more laid back schedule where the CFI can independently assess their progress and take more discretion in when they're ready. Part 141 requires formal stage checks with other CFIs.
PooPooPointBoiz@reddit (OP)
ATP is a part 61 school though, right? The friend I have in mind that solo'd at 50 hours was doing ATP. Meaning he was flying a lot, very regularly. And yet still solo'd at 50. Which seems nuts since a lot of people are getting their check ride at 50-60 hours for their PPL.
Thegerbster2@reddit
ATP is legally 61, but still very structured compared to most 61s. Keep in mind 50-60 is very much the low end for PPL. Average is probably around 60-80, and that's just the average. There's a lot to dislike about ATP, but having solos closer to the end of training honestly isn't one of them. There's a reason everyone says hours to solo doesn't matter, because it doesn't. Most of your time will be dual anyways, soloing later just means your solo time will be more concentrated at the end, but will honestly probably be higher quality.
vanhawk28@reddit
Chances are if you are doing ATP you also are trying to get to at least commercial as quick as possible. There is a lot of time building that needs to happen to get to the 250 for commercial. So they probably just don’t care about how early you solo since your going to either do extra hours during your ppl or extra hours after just puttering around in circles building time
Circle_Runner@reddit
ATP designed their program so maneuver proficiency is expected prior to solo. After solo and xc solo, there is ~4-6 hours for checkride prep and then the checkride. It reduces risk on their end, and the order of things doesn’t really matter to the student. Additionally, students will require 200 hours for their commercial so they figured it works well to shuffle some hours into private for a better success rate, rather than spending hours later on where they find students are typically already proficient and just time building.
Ultimately the goal is the airlines for these students. Total time at time of solo is irrelevant at that point.
sasben@reddit
I was on the low end. (Australia) A few things, I had done my BAK exam, had medical from a D AME (medicals are different now there), big into the sims we had when I was young (think Falcon etc) so had some good understanding of basics, and then I flew several days, several hours per week, lots of emergency work in air and ground simulated in classroom, uncontrolled airfield, so many circuits (pattern work). And our solo was one take off and landing. 12.1 hours
7layeredAIDS@reddit
It’s a little of each. Every CFI is different in their teaching methods. There are also different curriculum structures. There are also students that are able to take lessons once a day or sometimes multiple times a day, versus students that can only meet once per week. All of these things contribute to when a student can solo - not to mention some students are just really fast learners.
Sort of as a related sidenote , you will hear of students every now and again that are able to solo after a ridiculously fast time. We are talking like five hours. It’s insane. Situations like that usually mean that the CFI is trying to go for some sort of record to show that they are a great instructor, when really there is no way that they have done their due diligence to present the realistic situations a student might have to deal with in that amount of time. A student should be able to demonstrate that they can consistently do the tasks needed for a certain skill set before you move onto the next skillet. When we start talking about hour totals that are super super low, there is no way those CFI‘s have had the time needed to see consistent results. They are taking a huge risk, as is the student. So to the OP, not sure what sparked this question, but if you have friends or know of somebody that solo’ed in a crazy low amount of time, don’t get discouraged because there comes a point when there is unnecessary risk being taken by both sides.
PooPooPointBoiz@reddit (OP)
The question just popped into my head because I saw an old high school friend go through ATP school and solo'd at around 45-50 hours. Thought that seemed really high since that's above the minimums required to get the full PPL.
And I know that there are others who solo at 10-15, so I just wondered what the difference there was.
7layeredAIDS@reddit
I would say one pretty consistently easy way to extend your training is to take flight lessons like once per week. That almost always result in longer solo times and certificate times. Students that are enrolled in a program where they can consistently take lessons 3 4 or five times a week almost always progress faster.
Thegerbster2@reddit
Part of it has to do with the order in which things are done. The people who solo at 15 hours go through the basics in a few lessons, make sure you can takeoff, fly level, turn, climb/descend, ect. Then 1 or 2 lessons of emergency stuff like stalls, steep turn and spins (depending where you are or who your CFI is), make sure you can at least recover from these things. From there you drill the pattern until you're ready to solo, doing a couple things like go arounds and making the runway with a PO180 mixed in. This way you can solo pretty quickly, but you're really only ready to solo the pattern and will need more instruction before you can solo beyond. This tends to spread your solo time throughout the rest of your training. This was how my school did things (I soloed at \~12 hours), and it worked fine, but even after I solo'd, most of my flights were still dual, with a solo here and there. To solo that early you also have to be on top of your ground studying, especially for things like emergency procedures.
Other instructors/school may focus on stuff beyond the pattern, instead of just drilling it until you can solo it. This will tend to mean you solo at later hours, but should feel more prepared, and be able to solo outside the pattern more quickly. This will tend to mean more of your solo time will be concentrated near the latter parts your training. While you do solo later, you'll probably end up with a similar amount of solo time to the other method by the time you get your PPL.
There is also many other factors beyond personal skill that can delay or shorten you time to solo. A big one if just the airport you're training out of. My airport was a not super busy class D with a practice area about a 5 minute flight away, and that certainly helped reduce the amount of hours I needed because not much time was spend on the ground and enroute.
ltcterry@reddit
Because talent is not distributed equally* - whether in Learners or CFIs.
Not to mention different airports. Different weather. Random bad luck w/ maintenance. Restarting due to job loss. Starting w/ a new CFI - literally and figuratively.
Combine a low talent Learner w/ a low talent CFI and you have a mess. Then, with Primacy even a good instructor has a hard time fixing things.
*I'm not being mean - I can't dance or sing, play the piano or football. But I'm brilliant when it comes to understanding numbers. We are not all the same. Thank God!
Esoteric_Prurience@reddit
It depends on how they approach flying - is it a career move for them? If so then they are likely to be on the lower end of the scale. However, is this a hobby where they can only put one hour ever other Saturday toward, and just fly for fun? Then you'll likely have many students who are well on their way, hours-wise, before they are able to solo. For some it is just a skill/aptitude issue.
At my old flying club there was a student who had well over 250 hours and had yet to be signed off solo. The instructors had all told him that unless there was a miraculous change to his flying, he would never solo. He was adamant though, and the club were more than happy to take his money. God help him if he ever did go up on his own though.
There was another 'student' - an elderly gentleman in his early 80's, who had always wanted to fly but was never in a position to be able to afford it. Luckily his son was in a much better position, and happily paid for this lovely man to come into club a couple of times a week and bimble around with an instructor - more of a pleasure flight than anything else, but again, the club was happy, and so was the student.
Different strokes for different folks.
mctomtom@reddit
When I started, it was just a hobby. I had a really busy tech job and worked like 50+ hours per week. I only had time to fly on the weekends and occasional evenings. I spread my PPL out over 2 years. When I switched to flying as a career last year, I finished instrument and commercial in less than a year, flying like 3 times a week and a lot of weather cancellations. It's all about the effort you are willing to put in, how much you've practiced procedures, whether you've failed stage checks/checkrides and need more training, etc.
GrammarNaziBadge0174@reddit
Age and driving experience. Driving experience has to be unlearned; you don't fly a plane like you steer a car.
TrowelProperly@reddit
Some people treat flying like a career. Others treat it like a very part time hobby.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Does it all come down to how the CFI thinks the student is progressing? Or is there a difference in how a school like ATP would do it vs a mom and pop flight school?
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