Pass rate of your flight school?
Posted by AcrobaticLevel5471@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 42 comments
I’m just curious how many students pass on their first try for ratings at your flight school. I have 2 check ride failures but I have my PPL and instrument rating. I am getting a bit discouraged since I know I can’t fail anymore. And I know it will only get more difficult from here.
I am currently at a 141 at a university. Every semester about 70% of us fail either ground or the flight portion of the class. Usually the flight portion. Each semester the classes are cut in half because it’s a combination of the 30% that make it, and the hold overs from students retaking the class. My first semester of 30 students had a 100% fail rate. I was the last one remaining from my original flight class, but now I’m among the 70% who has to retake something. Is that typical at your flight school?
This is how my class sizes played out per semester. Each semester it was a majority of hold overs.
PPL 1 - 30 students (100% fail) PPL 2 - 16 students Instrument 1 - 7 students Instrument 2 - 4 students CPL 1 - 3 students (100% fail) CPL 2 - 2 students
bhalter80@reddit
Fail in the sense that the are failing a checkride/EOC check or a stage check along the way?
The overall data published by the FAA is that 70-80% pass
intern_steve@reddit
If the 141 program has examining authority, they're obligated to make at least an 80% first time pass rate for certificate check rides to retain that authority. Taking the facts presented at face value, OP's school is underperforming for its students.
IJNShiroyuki@reddit
That sounds like it’s backward. They should make it the other way, if over 80% passed they should get investigated for fraud.
intern_steve@reddit
There is a clear conflict of interest present in the system, but the rule is in place to ensure that students are being treated fairly and not failed unnecessarily, and also that the school is providing adequate instruction. A better method of assessment would almost certainly be that a certain percentage of check flights should be selected at random to be observed or conducted by independent examiners.
IJNShiroyuki@reddit
How bout let’s not let anyone be the examiner or inspector for their own work? It has been proven so many things could go wrong and no one will find out.
intern_steve@reddit
There are not enough DPEs to make that work. A 141 school must demonstrate a 90% first time pass rate with DPEs not affiliated with that school in order to gain examining authority in the first place; the quality of pilots is not in question. It is to everyone's benefit to have this examining authority authorizations in place, but a small amount of additional oversight would be useful.
IJNShiroyuki@reddit
That’s something I truly don’t understand. Why is it so difficult to get more DPE certified? Don’t they charge ridiculous price for checkride? Should be easy money for many career instructor.
intern_steve@reddit
If, hypothetically, a large flying program opened in a thriving metropolis like, for example, Prescott Arizona, or Grand Forks, North Dakota, or even Carbondale, Illinois, finding DPEs not directly affiliated with such a program would be challenging, as the DPE would necessarily live near to that program, those programs being in remote locations with limited need for examiners outside of the 141 program. At that point, the DPE is either employed directly by the 141 school, or is a private contractor doing nearly exclusive business with that school, both of which present the same conflicts but with less oversight, at greater cost to the students.
IJNShiroyuki@reddit
that… make sense, but still, i think pilot examination should be a goverment function, it should be held to a specific standard with little room for under the table changes.
YourFriendlyCFI@reddit
My school almost lost its 141 privileges. They fudge the numbers with commercial multi passes
AcrobaticLevel5471@reddit (OP)
Fail in the sense that you “pass” the course with a good letter grade on your transcript. But then you have to take a remedial course for a new letter grade. For example, you fail your check ride/stage check but pass everything else. Let’s say you get a B for that class. Then you take a remedial course and maybe you get another B for that class. Regardless if you pass the check ride or not. I know someone who’s gotten straight A’s for 4 remedial PPL classes. So nothings ever been a failure as far as a letter grade, but after 2 years he still doesn’t have his PPL and has 2 check ride failures.
finny-the-cat@reddit
What university?
RaiseTheDed@reddit
My university didn't have letter grades for flight labs, they were pass/fail.
bhalter80@reddit
The question is what is being reported to PRD as checking events, in your description you're conflating checkrides and stage checks. Checkrides are checking events that get reported to PRD and have an FAA 8710 to go with them, stage checks are internal progress checks built into the 141 program and don't get reported to PRD but may be asked about in interviews/apps
AcrobaticLevel5471@reddit (OP)
It’s a mix of both check rides and stage checks. The first half of every course has a stage check to move on to the next course which is the check ride course. I’m not sure what the failure rate is on the reported check rides. Since I’m not sure on the exact reasoning on why students don’t advance go the next course. Whether it be failed check ride, oral, ground school grade etc. From what I know it’s the check rides and stage checks. It’s a semester based schooling system, so at the end of every semester everyone is cramming to get their last flight in so they aren’t forced to take the remedial course.
Low-Yak6705@reddit
no cfi should be signing off any student and having consistent failures let alone 70% of an entire class.. I attended a part 141 school(not a uni just flight school) almost everyone from my 30 people ground class would pass the checkride regardless if it’s an EOC or with a dpe. I’ve only ever failed checkrides/EOC on the flight portion. If your school is giving multiple stage checks and Mocks then there should be no excuse for a student to lack the knowledge to pass a ground.
KintaroGold@reddit
local school near me has approximately 50% washout rate for PPL
sugardab@reddit
This doesn’t sound right, What university are you at?
rogerdoesnotmeanyes@reddit
Yeah, if it's that bad at a 141 school the FAA is going to get involved, right?
fiyoOnThebayou@reddit
Its insane to see my 141 school coworkers at the FBO spend a week in school on a subject and still not understand it as well as they could have from the 20 minute MZeroA video on it. I get the ability to get loans for 141 training, but man it just seems absurd the way they drag it out to “justify” the costs.
Spartan158@reddit
I've seen one student fail the practical in the year and a half I've worked at my flight school. No ground failures. We're a part 61 though I don't care if you're at 41 hours or 91 you're not getting signed off until you're ready to pass the checkride consistently.
Funkshow@reddit
Part 61 is the better way. It's fun and not as regimented but just as thorough. Part 141 has people miserable.
alpha2490@reddit
All of my students that've come to my 61 school from the local 141 mill- er I mean school have been shocked that I don't yell at them when they make basic mistakes.
fiyoOnThebayou@reddit
Its insane to see my coworkers spend a week in school on a subject and still not understand it as well as they could have from the 20 minute MZeroA video on it.
dopexile@reddit
A typical Part 91 school has an 80% failure rate. Most people quit for financial, schedule, or motivational reasons and never get a certificate.
billtho111@reddit
Checkride+ Written passes first attempt we had like 85% before I left
habu-sr71@reddit
Sounds like a racket to me. The failure numbers seem to be insanely high.
Who benefits when students fail check rides? All parties that profit from continued instruction/aircraft rentals/certification attempts.
This sort of industry dysfunction seems to happen automatically. Usually there's no spoken or written plan from the owners and management of the various moving parts of the industry, but simply the economic pressures creating behaviors over time.
I'm not pointing my finger at any individual party...I'm mostly just pointing out how things work. It has to do with power imbalances, our survival/domination instincts and lack of oversight/regulation. I think the FAA is highly concerned with safety (rightfully so) but I'm not sure that much of their resources go towards protecting the student pilot from exploitive practices.
ltcterry@reddit
If you have that sort of programmatic failure rate then the FAA is going to come a-visiting.
The pass rate for most practical tests is around 80%. Traditionally CFI was the worst, but lately Private has been just as bad. Is that emblematic of the (poor/declining?) caliber of people learning to fly?
Personally, my clients over the last 24 months have passed on the first go 19 out of 20 times - that's 95 percent. Only one initial Private in the group, but three of them are initial CFIs. My only failure is an add on CFII client; it was his first failure too.
Known-Diet-4170@reddit
i'm going on limb here, but couldn't it be possible that the fact in the US a large amount of CFIs are doing that job just as a stepping stone to the airlines and thus the average quality of teaching has somewhat decreased?
i'm not saying they are all bad subpar CFIs of course, just that there has been an increes in the number of CFIs that don't really care about teaching or that generally less experienced given that are relatively new pilots
as i said just a theory
intern_steve@reddit
This is definitely a possibility. In the late 2000s and early teens, most airline bound instructors had been on the beat for 5-10 years already trying to earn their hours (esp. Multi time) enough to flag a resumé pull at even the lowest tier regional. Experience in instruction has dwindled significantly.
ltcterry@reddit
Half of CFIs are below average. One of my pet peeves is that we train them to pass the checkride rather than provide them the tools to be/become adequate instructors. I try to make the latter happen.
I don't know, but is there an increase in active CFIs? Asking about a substantial change not just a slight one.
AcrobaticLevel5471@reddit (OP)
I should have said this in my original post, but nobody technically “fails”. You get an A on your transcript and you “pass” the class on paper, but you have to retake the check ride/oral/written as a part of a new class. So you can have an A grade for your original class. Then another A on every remedial course you have to take.
DE_FUELL@reddit
WTF? That's not right. At all. Agree with previous posters- shame this school. There is some high-level shadiness going on over there. And you're getting robbed.
Thegerbster2@reddit
That just sounds like fraud...
Reputation_Many@reddit
Stage checks aren’t failures, but if more than one in five students is failing a checkride, it’s likely a poor Part 141 program. To give yourself the best chance, consider supplementing your training with extra resources like Sporty’s or King Schools videos if you need visual guidance, and study from the FAA’s PHAK and other official materials.
Never let anyone push you into a checkride before you’re confident and ready. A failed checkride can follow you throughout your career. If the program’s designated examiner has a high failure rate, consider finding your own DPE, even if it means sacrificing eligibility for a restricted ATP. An extra 300 hours as a CFI or Part 135 pilot is better than a failure on your record due to pressure.
I attended a Part 141 university program and hardly logged any flight hours for two semesters due to scheduling and weather delays. During winter break, I logged 60+ hours, earned my instrument and commercial ratings, and then learned the university wouldn’t count that progress. I transferred to ERAU distance learning and never looked back.
Personally, I prefer Part 61. It lets you fly as much as you want, study at your own pace, and work closely with a CFI who’s focused on your progress. Before any checkride, get a second opinion from another instructor to confirm you’re ready.
And if you can, look for Gold Seal CFIs—they have proven pass rates and can offer invaluable training.
dmspilot00@reddit
100% of people failing a PPL groundschool ... not sure what to think. It's not that difficult.
AcrobaticLevel5471@reddit (OP)
It’s ground mixed with flight. Most fail due to flight.
dmspilot00@reddit
Ah okay...well they shouldn't be taking a checkride until they're ready so this also seems preventable.
dmspilot00@reddit
Ah okay...well they shouldn't be taking a checkride until they're ready so this also seems preventable.
Known-Diet-4170@reddit
in my (limited) experience students are more likely to drop out than actually fail a check ride
Confident-Curve4672@reddit
if you’re numbers are accurate, post and shame this school.
in my opinion, most of the time a fail is on the student. there are too many resources out there to allowed you effectively pass the first time, unless you’re just a shit pilot.
but a school with a pass/fail right like that is quite horrible. i’m not sure at the 141 i attended on the pass rate, but the stage check rides and oral were way harder than the actual ride itself.
study harder, fly better, don’t have another bust. CFI initial from what i read will be your hardest, so make sure you know your shit to a T.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I’m just curious how many students pass on their first try for ratings at your flight school. I have 2 check ride failures but I have my PPL and instrument rating. I am getting a bit discouraged since I know I can’t fail anymore. And I know it will only get more difficult from here.
I am currently at a 141 at a university. Every semester about 70% of us fail either ground or the flight portion of the class. Usually the flight portion. Each semester the classes are cut in half because it’s a combination of the 30% that make it, and the hold overs from students retaking the class. My first semester of 30 students had a 100% fail rate. I was the last one remaining from my original flight class, but now I’m among the 70% who has to retake something. Is that typical at your flight school?
This is how my class sizes played out per semester. Each semester it was a majority of hold overs.
PPL 1 - 30 students (100% fail) PPL 2 - 16 students Instrument 1 - 7 students Instrument 2 - 4 students CPL 1 - 3 students (100% fail) CPL 2 - 2 students
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