Refusing to wear masks, being cruel or bullying people you see as beneath you, and sucking the cock of the rich assholes who are directly ruining people's lives right now, you mean.
Of course people are going to think you're a cunt if you're doing that. You know that already, that's why you do it and you brag about how big it makes you feel and how much fun it is all the time.
Take responsibility for your unfuckable energy and annoying persona and stop blaming everyone else for being woke or whatever.
It's been 4 years. If you're still wearing a mask or advocating for it at this point you should try social distancing yourself into a padded cell. And on the topic of "rich assholes who ruin people's lives" have you seen the head of BLM's net worth? Pretending you're "fighting the power" while being propped up by grifters and trust fund babies is peak irony and buy and large people tend to find you and people like you way more annoying than people who just vote Republican or Libertarian.
No, no - you see, the state can have guns. They’ll make you compliant by force. So they just need to continue to vote for overstepping government officials who are interested in power and restricting freedoms.
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
C S Lewis was economically left wing though. He wrote about how no parties represented Christianity, because a truly Christian party would be economically left wing, but with traditional morality.
I mean, there's several words. Christian democracy, Christian socialism, or distributism all loosely convey this idea, just with differing levels of emphasis on different parts.
mfw I can call my boss idiot and fuckwit to their face and have no fear that he'll ever do anything to me >!bc I'm CCO and they can't fire me without provicing sufficient reason to regulator.!<
Are you agreeing with them? Because unionization used to be higher and things are shit now in part because wealthy people tricked poors into being anti union.
If you dont think a globalist economy and ‘wokeness’ go hand in hand then Marx has got you by the balls. Also that little one liner was so sick bro you totally pwned him when you said try harder. So cool
What does Marx have to do with this? "Woke" Globalism is just Neoliberal Capitalism betraying Whites for diversity. The system you so ardently support betrayed you the moment you became a liability, and it will replace.
Capitalism is always profit motivated and if replacing you with Jeets is cheap then so be it. If adopting a "woke" ideology will placate the multicultural society then so be it.
Your blind allegiance to Capitalism was your undoing, and you're still too stupid to figure that out.
Marx or Smith, doesn’t matter. End goal for both is an increasingly powerful state. Paint me whatever way your little brain wants, capitalist, communist anarchist. My point is the ideas of Marx AND smith are founded on the basis of growing the power of the state over the power of the classes. ‘Wokeness’ also seems to come from a desire for a more powerful state, “I want words to be against the LAW” “minorities need help FROM THE GOVERNMENT” “the US GOVERNMENT should do something to stop Ukraine and Palestine conflicts”
Don’t get your commie panties in a bunch and paint everyone as Patrick Bateman just because that artsy film played into your repressed greed.
Marx and Engels wrote that with the abolition of class distinctions, the state would wither away, a lot of Marxists even advocate for immediately abolishing the state. Do your own reading instead of listening to jordan peterson or whoever came up with this nonsense
Ya and I wrote that I’m getting a million dollars on Monday if I squeeze my balls hard enough. Problem is all ima end up with is some flat balls.
The state could MAYBE wither away after a period of consolidation or “revolution”. But what is a revolution if not an extremely powerful ‘temporary’ state.
Oh and revolutions are historically known to just wither away after they take power right? Surely!
A revolution is an overthrowing of the existing system in favour of a new one.
The state is made unnecessary upon the abolition of all classes, globally. The point of China, USSR, Cuba etc existing as a state is because they exist in a global system of capitalist hegemony. Anarchist/stateless revolutions have never seen an inch of success because they’ll just be taken over. Marxist-Leninist & Maoist revolutions have made some progress because they understand the use of the state in protecting their new system
Russia is not socialist, it has been a capitalistic oligarchy since 1991. China is taking a road of development that many socialists agree or disagree with. My point there was that China and the USSR had revolutions which used the state to retain the new governance and not revert back to an older one.
My overall point is that Marx didn’t say “cummunizm is when centralized state autocracy”, there are different ways of using the state after having a revolution which are argued about by leftists everywhere but the goal is achieving a stateless world, without class distinctions - so that working class people would have actual governance over their own lives instead of voting once every 4 years and calling it “democracy”
So a direct democracy or a representative “democracy”? If it’s the latter we’re just swapping titles, but both ideas have been around long before communism.
could be both. I’m more a fan of direct democracy but others prefer representative systems. socialism/communism are not antithetical to democratic governance, actually I’m a firm believer that social reorganisation of workplaces and governments would be MORE democratic than any capitalist country has
he isn't talking about "wokeness". he is talking about unions. they are bullshit to deal with but at least they stop employers from forcing people to do all sorts of unreasonable or dangerous shit.
Actually no it doesn't. Detroit died because of 'wokeness in HR' (mass hiring black workers into the auto unions). This stuff isn't actually that complicated. Crap in, crap out.
It only became majority black when the white people left After the collapse of the local economy, in the time period we are talking about, Detroit was majority white.
Detroit was the richest city in the world in the 40s. Then it stagnated. Then it headed downhill fast. The 2000s was just a lowpoint on a long slide down.
And from the 40s to 2000s the auto industry was just fine until a shit ton of legislation and bailouts tanked the auto industry locally in the 2000s. Not because a majority black city hired a bunch of black people.
Lmao imagine going through life thinking Detroit industry failed due to "mass hiring black workers" and not because it became infinitely cheaper to produce the same goods abroad due to free trade agreements.
Your brain would look like a walnut if it existed at all.
And paying 'diversity' workers union wages, making them uncompetitive with the Japanese. Unions worked great when they were worth it. But when you make them hire a bunch of unproductive workers...
union participation has been at historic lows for the last few years and decreasing, but it was at its highest post WWII. So you're arguing against your own position.
Yet somehow those poor oppressed factory workers could afford \~\~houses\~\~ broken down single wide trailers for their families in \~\~safe\~\~ meth communities
Ehh, it’s more fun that way. Also I give no shits about the finances of the boss. Unless you own the means of production your biggest concern should always be getting the most money for the least effort.
It protects the people who have been there 35 years doing a dogshit job and leaves guys who have worked five or ten years but actually did amazing jobs in the cold
Yeah, we should all go back to working for unregulated robber barons that are totally fine with children losing their fingers in factories because OP can’t use slurs at work without getting in trouble. Great take.
He's obviously right. The people championing 'workers rights' are first and foremost progressives.
That means they will never talk about our right to not have to work with dangerous DEI candidates. Or weak and incompetent women. To carry these groups on our back. And the financial and social impact it has on us.
Like all modern "leftists" they are foremost liberals and progressives, no matter how much they protest otherwise. That supersedes everything else. So their original posturing comes out to mean very little.
Sure, but instead of offering a better alternative, the conservatives are like "Well the left is FOR workers rights, that has to mean I'm AGAINST them". And then they bootlick corpos and tell themselves that it's better that way.
Not because they really think it's better, it simply has to be better because it's the opposite from what the other side wants.
Divide et Impera in it's purest form. The corpos played all of us.
As a leftist a recurring point in the discussion spaces I follow is that ‘you have more in common with the blue collar maga truck driver than you could ever have in common with the wealthy elite’
So in case you intentionally set out to reinforce generalizations over nuance, I’m going to leave this here to break the echo chamber.
You have to pay dues for all the benefits it brings. Shucks! Why isn't it free? Why can't everyone else fix society and let me just benefit without effort or sacrifice?
Implying the modern American left is for workers rights is the funniest thing I’ve read today. What do you think is the purpose of allowing millions of undocumented migrants?
Who cares?!? They gained their money largely by being bulldogs and fighting for the rights and compensation of the people who chose them as leaders. If they do a good job and are rewarded, I find it far easier to support their path to riches than I do bullshit businessmen who make money by exploiting people or nepot babies who inherit their wealth. If your justification for being anti-union is "look at the millionaire on the labor side" then you've fallen hook, line, and sinker for the class division bullshit that the billionaire owners want you to lap up. Always. Support. Labor.
I am pro union but some unions are compromised in their purpose as a union. A union being hierarchical is what causes this. There ends up being some mini class dynamic that separates the interests of representatives and the workers as a whole.
While the owner class of billionaires just has to agree with themselves... Simplicity doesn't mean something is better. Coming to a compromise that addresses the concerns of multiple groups in a coalition is an inarguably difficult task. I'm not saying unions as they exist in the US are a perfect solution, but they are one of the most effective (and only) tools labor has to force ownership to come to the table for negotiations. You don't see billionaires and the politicians that support them being pitted against each other, but you sure do see them spend a lot of money trying to convince the working class that the real enemy is people making slightly more than them instead of the handful of people making unfathomable amounts of money via exploitation.
You’re not saying anything to me by saying unions are good. Obviously. But we need to be able to criticize them and organize them intelligently to have them succeed
Yeah and this thread is about an unhinged post saying you shouldn't support labor rights because they might hire a black person or fire you for being upset that they hired a black person. Totally legitimate criticisms of union leadership. I'm all for critiquing institutions to improve them, but this conversation wasn't exactly enlightened before I dropped my generic defense of the concept of organized labor, so I guess I missed the intelligent criticisms on offer.
Nowhere did the original post mention black people you dishonest hack. The prime complaints were forced unionization and unions either being in bed with or bowing the knee to HR or at least people with union sympathies who support both.
You're actually right, your post didn't mention it but the two top comment threads pretty much immediately devolved into discussions about WHY HR would be knocking on your door. Hint: it's not to "force you to unionize", it's likely because you've said some politically charged stuff about gender/race/class in our country that isn't acceptable for workplace discussion. I've never heard of HR telling an employee that they have to unionize; by definition HR exists to protect the interests of the company, and encouraging your workforce to organize usually does not dovetail with maximizing revenue...
Yeah okay fair enough. I guess I just find it more convincing to be accurate and balanced with arguments even when responding to irrationality. Saying unions are only good in response to someone saying they’re all bad doesn’t work very well ime. Whatever, have a good day
Who cares? The invisible hand dictates that all billionaires became billionaires by providing critical market services to people. If they provide good products and are rewarded, I find it far easier to support their path to riches than I do to bureaucrats who monopolize labor, bully politicians, and support corruption to enrich their guild. If your justification for being anti-corpo is "look at the billionaires" you've fallen hook, line, and sinker for the class division bullshit that millionaire union bosses want you to lap up. Always. Suck. Corpo. Cock.
Representing *their own* workers. Say the post office union now makes it take twice as long for my mail to get here so that they can work a 32 hour week. I am unsure how this benefits me at all, in fact, it is all negative, despite me being a worker.
True. But the solution to this is probably more funding or workers for the postal service if something modest like that is hurting the productivity of the workplace. If ultimately things are in balance but the cost is risen for the consumers, maybe working in solidarity with others towards a livable wage in general. But often unions and especially cooperatives are able to make things more efficient as well. I suggest looking into cecosesola cooperative in Venezuela. They have extremely competitive wages, pricing of goods, and work directly with consumers for the benefit of both parties while running everything bottom-up.
It’s possible, but often it isn’t the case. Usually it’s best to target money being funneled to the top of the hierarchy where it won’t be used for the interests of society or held onto forever. But if there were a case where workers were asking for an imbalanced wage then the rest of society can negotiate relations with them as well. Especially if they have to deal with other workers who are organized and able to withhold their services or labour at will.
were a case where workers were asking for an imbalanced wage then the rest of society can negotiate relations with them as well
Sometimes we can't. Sometimes unions hold monopolies over a certain kind of labor and they use it to bend the state over a rail and give it a good pounding. In America, this usually only occurs in public or semi-public sectors, think police unions making it impossible to fire bad cops or teachers unions making it hard to fire predatory teachers. Or historically, you have PATCO.
I don't understand your perspective. You argue that it's best to target the money going to the top, because it "won't be used for the interests of society", but this betrays a correct understanding of the way the wealthy use their riches, which is by plugging it into companies via investments. This is very desirable behavior. Middle class and lower class people are more likely to spend a greater percentage of their income on consumer goods, which is also desirable behavior. Neither to me takes great precedence over another.
I think it is important to ensure that all people live a reasonably prosperous life, but neither corporations nor unions are trying to do that. They are amoral institutions out for themselves, and the goals they attempt to achieve are self-centered. any alignment with the goal of maximizing happiness for society semi-random, due to principles like the imbalance of power between employees and employers and the invisible hand. But these principles are far from all encompassing, and it is clear to anyone with two eyes that companies regularly fail to maximize the general wellbeing despite the invisible hand. Why then, is it so hard for people to acknowledge that unions can be the same? I suppose it's because unions are much less powerful as a general rule.
The problems you’re giving with unions would be solved with even more organizing. The problem is disproportionate decision making power in society. If some people who aren’t getting their fair share start to get it, the solution to that imbalance isn’t dragging them down to the rest of the workers, it’s helping others unionize in solidarity.
Police unions are a problem because police are a problem. Won’t get into that one.
Wealthy do reinvest their money. But part of the problem is the level of power they have to invest in what is only in their interests over anyone else despite not earning that wealth. Lower and middle class people dont have nearly as much liquid value to give relatively in the first place because it’s being taken by those rich people in question.
Unions aren’t an inherent good or bad, but their structure generally ties them closer to the interests of more people than capitalist entities such as corporations do. The problems with unions tend to be solved by going further and unionizing more people in general or removing the need for a union via directly, fully democratized economies.
What benefits? The ability to hold whole industries hostage over a grievance? The ability to freeze out healthy competition in a free market by absolute white knuckled control of the labor force? Or the parasitic money grubbing of so called "organisers" and representatives?
Unions are, at best, a vestigial organ of a long bygone age and deserve to be relegated to their place in history alongside other cautionary tales and fallacies.
The labour force is what creates the value in the first place.
Say you invented a widget. You then formed a company to market and sell the widget. You took out a loan to buy equipment to manufacture the widget, and hired people to run the equipment. Are you saying those employees are the individuals responsible for creating the value of your widget?
Largely, yes. You are also responsible as well. It depends on how much labour and personal property is proportionately invested into the project. I’m not against risk taking investors making more than the average associate. But they should be dictators of the entire factory and distribution apparatus. When you make things proportionate things tend to get quite a lot more even and equal across the board. There’s no justification for anyone making a billion dollars, or even a hundred million. The vast majority of capitalist businesses operate in a parasitic fashion from the top down via the capital owners.
Because they are responsible for creating most of the value of these projects most of the time, especially at scale and long term. There are cases where that’s not true of course though.
Because they are responsible for creating most of the value of these projects most of the time
Ok, sure… but HOW exactly are they responsible for that?
Im speaking of my prior hypothetical, not in any greater sense. I fail to see how employees who were not responsible for inventing the widget, funding the company, investing in it’s infrastructure, or doing anything aside from performing the labor necessary to operate equipment are credited for creating its value.
It depends based on the example, but it’s very rare a normal non-exploitation based person could afford the entire infrastructure of the company single handedly unless they were rich enough to live off the backs of other workers.
Even then, you’re minimizing labour as if it’s one expendable part of how things are produced. It’s probably THE most important one. A general strike can bring entire nations to their knees worse than a power outage or other factor. If the owner of most companies didn’t show up to work, things would likely run just fine, if not even better sometimes.
Let’s give a good faith example here. Say you’re investing your personal life savings you earned through personal labour into a project and you rent/buy office space and tools and various other things needed to start a project. You can and should have more control compared to each worker you’re hiring to fill each position since you are investing more into the company. That doesn’t mean you should be the supreme dictator of the company still, because there are others invested in the company as well who should have proportionate say in how things affect them. You would likely have a more influential positional than most again, but it shouldn’t be total. It needs to be proportionate. And as that company grows, your investment will become dwarfed compared to the many others involved with the company and its growth. There’s no justification from any angle how one person could earn 100 million dollars while their workers make any normal wage. You are not putting 700 times more personal investment into the company than any worker. That’s impossible.
The idea that because one started a project initially that therefore they should have total ownership forever is logic you could use to justify monarchy. It just serves those already in power holding onto and expanding their power.
Im trying to keep this particular discussion limited to the example i provided in my original post (i.e. you started a widget company), rather than billion dollar corporations. First and foremost because it cuts a lot of miscellaneous emotional bullshit and the greater socio-economic power structure complications out of the equation, and second because that stuff isn’t really pertinent to the discussion of “who’s responsible for the value” of whatever is being produced.
Like sure, a general strike would wreck a nation in a lot of ways. But we’re not talking about a general strike, we’re talking about who’s responsible for the value of a widget in your company. Does that make sense to you?
And im pretty familiar with the socialist/communist ideas of democratization of the workplace and ownership of the “means of production”. What I’m interested in finding out is what that particular concept looks like to you, specifically, within the context of my hypothetical.
Okay sorry, I’ll focus on your specific example. I think I just used those other examples to emphasize how much labour makes up the value of the project you mentioned. It depends to what scale this widget business was and how it is structured id say as well. Because if you for example built a bunch of robots from scratch in your garage to build widgets for you, and you hired a maid to clean your garage once a week, I mean yeah that’s yours entirely to own, and the maid is probably just entitled to safety and relevant compensation. That’s why I’m using other examples to illustrate how much value in most businesses is comprised of worker’s labour vs initial investment. I think there’s a balance there, but I do think that generally it is in the workers moreso especially long term. And I think you can have proportionate decision-making power based on that balance. If you look into successful examples of cooperatives you’ll often find that this balance can be reached and is part of the success of the company. Look into cecosesola as a prime model for cooperatives if you want an example of what I’d love to see become widespread.
I’m not. You just left out a lot of factors I had to adjust for. And a lot of it is contextually based. So what exactly am I not answering that you’re trying to ask then?
Plenty of coops exist and nobody's out trying to destroy them. It just so happens that people who touch grass and have families to feed tend to care more about a steady paycheck than "owning the means of production".
Oh yes actually, people are out to destroy them. Capitalist and state entities share different class interests than workers do.
Owning the means of production means having a direct say in how your life and workplace runs. People with no life or workplace have no interest in that.
The problem with more extreme leftists is that they refuse to see anything as other than black or white. Such a simplistic worldview is pure fantasy and leads to a lot of confusion.
What are the "class interests" of the Unabomber? Why should an underpaid manual laborer feel any kind of solidarity with a well-off senior specialist? Similarly, why should a small family business in any way identify with the large corporation screwing them over? Do I turn from an oppressed worker to bloodthirsty capitalist the moment I enter my home and pay the babysitter?
The broader the categories the more arbitrary and useless they are. And 2 is as broad as it gets.
Another common theme is treating every relationship purely in terms of power dynamics paying no attention to any nuances or tradeoffs. For example:
Owning the means of production means having a direct say in how your life and workplace runs.
Have you considered that most people may not even want that?
If I have no idea how to run a car factory then why would I, even partially, accept such a responsibility? Belief that having "no boss" is something exclusively beneficial is childish. It's a tradeoff that many people consciously choose not to make despite having the means to do so.
Unions are far from vestigial. It's a safety net that continues to adapt as working conditions evolve. While the challenges of the 19th century might differ from today's, unions still play a vital role in protecting workers' rights, securing fair wages, and ensuring safe working environments. Just look at how they helped millions of workers navigate layoffs during the pandemic or how they're addressing the gig economy now.
Spent 6 years in a union and have zero desire to be in one again lol.
In my experience the general culture, protection of shitty workers, and leadership positions being entirely based on how much dick you suck and not actual qualifications, left me not impressed.
in a nutshell, its trying to bring in all the cancer from politics and society found elsewhere in life into one of the few somewhat meritocratic places left, business.
rewarding your best worker because he's literally 4 times as productive as some DEI hire? cant be having that! everyone gets paid the same because we are fair!
Some unions are masochistic cowards, mine said they will strike if the company pushes the vax. Company backed down, I dodged it, boomers got hosed and pushed out, now younger people are leading it aggressively but fairly. It's all about local leadership. They've managed to get almost 10% COLA raises to keep up with inflation and I dodged the vax. Chemical workers have a decent union at the least.
Have you worked for a union or voted one into a shop that was not union. The union will bargain form you but can make no guarantees about the quality of the contract.
The attitude is that unions are working for you against the big business yet the Union's upper echelon are paid a ton of money.
If one of your union brothers is slacking you just suffer for it. You can't call them out and you can't do their job.
I would be for unions if I could vote them out as easily as I can vote them in but they are insecure about their position and will fuck you harder than the company will for trying to de-unionize.
He is, hes describing the free rider problem that arises from not participating in unions/collective bargaining. If a union negotiates a max 8 hour shift or a cost of living pay increase for steel workers, those workers benefit whether they pay union dues or not. So if you are allowed to choose whether or not you pay to join the union, on an individual level, it doesn't make sense to join because you will benefit from union actions regardless of whether you pay for it, but of course if everyone did that then unions wouldn't be able to negotiate for anything.
Address the point that smelly reddit commies want everything centralized to the government "tO prOtEcT wOrKerS" but also want the ability to remove their employment, thus effectively condemning those people to starve to death (ironically).
People who concurrently hold these beliefs are either evil or stupid. Make it make sense or own up to it.
I dont agree with most reddit leftists, but you can at least try to represent their positions accurately (if you're able to someday engage with people who disagree with you like an adult might). These are generally people who support UBI, universal healthcare, and housing-first homlessness policies. No worker is starving to death because they got fired under those policies.
Your point seems to be, "these lefties want to protect workers, but they also want workers to be fired sometimes, how evil", which is just kind of baby-brained because every human being thinks sometimes people should be fired, it just depends on what you think justifies it or not. The two reasons lefties want people fired identified in the post are, 'disagrees politically' and 'doesnt pay union dues'. I've already addressed the union bit as the majority of the post focuses on that. For the 'disagrees politically': its so broad as to be a waste of time discussing without specifics. Most people would agree that firing someone for voting republican/democrat is not reasonable, but most people also think its ok to fire some guy who makes racist comments to his immigrant coworkers all the time. There is a wide gap in the middle there where people can and do disagree, but the post doesn't make any position clear beyond 'disagrees politically' and some vague 'HR blacklisting' comment, so all you're really doing is projecting your own opinions onto the post.
How much of the money I pay in taxes goes towards welfare keeping you alive? Are you physically able to dress yourself in the morning without assistance from your handler? Please request your aide read my comments to you again a little slower so maybe you can understand some small portion of it.
What do you think "centralized power over employment" means? Where have I advocated for whatever the fuck that is? All I've said is that sometimes its reasonable to fire people, but sometimes it isnt.
The idea that unions are all good because they protect workers rights is at least as stupid, and possibly stupider, than saying that all companies are good because the market requires that they provide worthwhile services to stay in business.
Regardless of the text this image pisses me off imagine having something killing the snake. Which I assume is a symbol of the gadsden flag.
Why kill a symbol of basically don’t mess with me? It’s like not even aggressive it’s basically saying just leave me alone and you do your thing and I do mine.
This just makes them look evil because now the cat represents aggression and oppression.
I'm tired of all these posts that are just screenshots of boomer-esque rants with no interaction. Where's the "lol internet"? It's like someone's dumbass opinion doesn't get traction on 4chan so they post it here, all the while making fun of "le reddit".
The Geneva Congress of 1866 is the common name assigned to the 1st General Congress of the International Workingmen's Association, held in Geneva, Switzerland from 3 to 8 September 1866. The gathering was attended by 46 regular and 14 fraternal delegates from a total of five countries. The Geneva Congress is best remembered for its watershed decision to make universal establishment of the 8-hour working day a main goal of the International Socialist movement.
Benefit now and work against the so many benefits that were fought for you long ago. Bootlicker are the worst. I'm not saying be a commie or a socialist but don't tell me unions aren't worth it.
Unions are good or bad or neutral. Just like corporations. There are plenty of shitty unions, plenty of good unions, and plenty of unions that are only fighting for themselves.
They're wannabe fascists themselves who depend on group think because they're too weak, mentally, physically, emotionally, or all of the above to fight for themselves so they depend on the collective to fight for them, and when somebody rejects groupthink because they're mentally, physically, and emotionally capable of articulating arguments for themselves these groupthink fascists attack them.
It's why libertarians are memed in the states, not because their ideas are bad, it's because they support individualism and being accountable for yourself, while most leftist ideology is groupthink oriented making them the Antithesis of their ideology, an enemy to defeat for the "greater good" which they arbitrarily define as anybody not in the group.
libertarians are memed because theyre incredibly stupid, spend 5 minutes asking them what a libertarian society would look like and youll see its main feature is a life expectancy of 40
You should write a book on how to describe an ideology extremely poorly.
I doubt you've actually had a real conversation with a Libertarian out in the wild. Only the basement dwelling neckbeards in high school who also poorly understand Libertarianism.
All they agree is max freedom.
Which is vague ass fudge or the magical as long as you are not hurting anyone theirs is no such thing as loopholes or nefarious ways of exploiting that.
I had to join a union to bag groceries and work in a parking lot. Both were minimum wage with no benefits. The union let the contract lapse in the last job so we didn't get raises for more than a year. Government loves unions because it's a bureaucracy going against a bureaucracy.
The cat butchering a snake is a masterful self-burn. They are literally aligning with state's power to knock down the rebellious (symbolised by a snake on gadsden flag). And thus, this is a great choice of pic in my opinion
Most of the time they don't help or even like blue collar workers either. Its revolutionary LARP that is disconnected from the working class completely
The resistance is the enforcement arm of the state. They are put there to sabotage real resistance. If a resistor reports to your boss, he’s working for your boss.
No you didn't. Address the point that smelly reddit commies want everything centralized to the government "tO prOtEcT wOrKerS" but also want the ability to remove their employment, thus effectively condemning those people to starve to death (ironically).
Sometimes people have to be forced to do things for their own good, which is ironic since the OP mocks a straw man which "complains that corpos make you work." We have lots of examples of people acting against their own interests like vaccinations or drug abuse. Are there union leaders who cynically exploit the structures of their organizations to aggrandize themselves and/or their peers at the expense of others, yeah of course. But the same can be said of essentially any organization, business or essentially group of people of any kind.
Commander_Caboose@reddit
Refusing to wear masks, being cruel or bullying people you see as beneath you, and sucking the cock of the rich assholes who are directly ruining people's lives right now, you mean.
Of course people are going to think you're a cunt if you're doing that. You know that already, that's why you do it and you brag about how big it makes you feel and how much fun it is all the time.
Take responsibility for your unfuckable energy and annoying persona and stop blaming everyone else for being woke or whatever.
DatSpicyBoi17@reddit (OP)
It's been 4 years. If you're still wearing a mask or advocating for it at this point you should try social distancing yourself into a padded cell. And on the topic of "rich assholes who ruin people's lives" have you seen the head of BLM's net worth? Pretending you're "fighting the power" while being propped up by grifters and trust fund babies is peak irony and buy and large people tend to find you and people like you way more annoying than people who just vote Republican or Libertarian.
Theroux721@reddit
They hate guns, but how's the revolution going to work without them? They gonna throw shoes?
DatSpicyBoi17@reddit (OP)
I think they just assume if they lecture people enough they'll convert to communism peacefully.
Jawn_Wilkes_Booth@reddit
No, no - you see, the state can have guns. They’ll make you compliant by force. So they just need to continue to vote for overstepping government officials who are interested in power and restricting freedoms.
Graybealz@reddit
bunker_man@reddit
C S Lewis was economically left wing though. He wrote about how no parties represented Christianity, because a truly Christian party would be economically left wing, but with traditional morality.
rwequaza@reddit
Your terms are acceptable. If only we had a word for this ideology.
bunker_man@reddit
I mean, there's several words. Christian democracy, Christian socialism, or distributism all loosely convey this idea, just with differing levels of emphasis on different parts.
MentalRadish3490@reddit
> mfw I’m protected from layoffs and guaranteed a livable wage but can’t say the n word :(
> mfw I work a 14 hour day in the widget factory but can call my underpaid coworker a whore :)
elphamale@reddit
canacata@reddit
Yet somehow those poor oppressed factory workers all could afford houses for their families in safe communities
How many of those things does the modern soywagie have
bunker_man@reddit
Are you agreeing with them? Because unionization used to be higher and things are shit now in part because wealthy people tricked poors into being anti union.
canacata@reddit
Unions are irrelevant.
CaughtOnTape@reddit
That has more to do with the general macroeconomic context of post-WW2 than whatever "wokeness" there is in HR nowadays.
Try harder.
MrFloatyBoaty@reddit
If you dont think a globalist economy and ‘wokeness’ go hand in hand then Marx has got you by the balls. Also that little one liner was so sick bro you totally pwned him when you said try harder. So cool
bunker_man@reddit
Marx wanted... neoliberalism capitalism?
Andrusz@reddit
What does Marx have to do with this? "Woke" Globalism is just Neoliberal Capitalism betraying Whites for diversity. The system you so ardently support betrayed you the moment you became a liability, and it will replace.
Capitalism is always profit motivated and if replacing you with Jeets is cheap then so be it. If adopting a "woke" ideology will placate the multicultural society then so be it.
Your blind allegiance to Capitalism was your undoing, and you're still too stupid to figure that out.
MrFloatyBoaty@reddit
Marx or Smith, doesn’t matter. End goal for both is an increasingly powerful state. Paint me whatever way your little brain wants, capitalist, communist anarchist. My point is the ideas of Marx AND smith are founded on the basis of growing the power of the state over the power of the classes. ‘Wokeness’ also seems to come from a desire for a more powerful state, “I want words to be against the LAW” “minorities need help FROM THE GOVERNMENT” “the US GOVERNMENT should do something to stop Ukraine and Palestine conflicts”
Don’t get your commie panties in a bunch and paint everyone as Patrick Bateman just because that artsy film played into your repressed greed.
destiper@reddit
Marx and Engels wrote that with the abolition of class distinctions, the state would wither away, a lot of Marxists even advocate for immediately abolishing the state. Do your own reading instead of listening to jordan peterson or whoever came up with this nonsense
MrFloatyBoaty@reddit
Ya and I wrote that I’m getting a million dollars on Monday if I squeeze my balls hard enough. Problem is all ima end up with is some flat balls.
The state could MAYBE wither away after a period of consolidation or “revolution”. But what is a revolution if not an extremely powerful ‘temporary’ state.
Oh and revolutions are historically known to just wither away after they take power right? Surely!
destiper@reddit
A revolution is an overthrowing of the existing system in favour of a new one.
The state is made unnecessary upon the abolition of all classes, globally. The point of China, USSR, Cuba etc existing as a state is because they exist in a global system of capitalist hegemony. Anarchist/stateless revolutions have never seen an inch of success because they’ll just be taken over. Marxist-Leninist & Maoist revolutions have made some progress because they understand the use of the state in protecting their new system
MrFloatyBoaty@reddit
Oh ya and let’s take a peek at China and Russia and the result of those non anarchist revolutions. Would love to live there!
destiper@reddit
Russia is not socialist, it has been a capitalistic oligarchy since 1991. China is taking a road of development that many socialists agree or disagree with. My point there was that China and the USSR had revolutions which used the state to retain the new governance and not revert back to an older one.
My overall point is that Marx didn’t say “cummunizm is when centralized state autocracy”, there are different ways of using the state after having a revolution which are argued about by leftists everywhere but the goal is achieving a stateless world, without class distinctions - so that working class people would have actual governance over their own lives instead of voting once every 4 years and calling it “democracy”
PapiBIanco@reddit
Sounds good, doesn’t work.
destiper@reddit
the new governance is the actual working class, that’s the point
PapiBIanco@reddit
So a direct democracy or a representative “democracy”? If it’s the latter we’re just swapping titles, but both ideas have been around long before communism.
destiper@reddit
could be both. I’m more a fan of direct democracy but others prefer representative systems. socialism/communism are not antithetical to democratic governance, actually I’m a firm believer that social reorganisation of workplaces and governments would be MORE democratic than any capitalist country has
MrTurboSlut@reddit
he isn't talking about "wokeness". he is talking about unions. they are bullshit to deal with but at least they stop employers from forcing people to do all sorts of unreasonable or dangerous shit.
bunker_man@reddit
His point didn't make much sense since he said the 50s were better, and a major part of that is because more people were unionized then.
canacata@reddit
Actually no it doesn't. Detroit died because of 'wokeness in HR' (mass hiring black workers into the auto unions). This stuff isn't actually that complicated. Crap in, crap out.
DatSpicyBoi17@reddit (OP)
Detroit is mostly black. How is that diversity hiring?
PikaPonderosa@reddit
Detroit was still 90% White in 1940.
DatSpicyBoi17@reddit (OP)
Your point?
Black_Diammond@reddit
It only became majority black when the white people left After the collapse of the local economy, in the time period we are talking about, Detroit was majority white.
DatSpicyBoi17@reddit (OP)
The massive auto company collapse was in the 2000s. Not the 40s.
canacata@reddit
Detroit was the richest city in the world in the 40s. Then it stagnated. Then it headed downhill fast. The 2000s was just a lowpoint on a long slide down.
Davethemann@reddit
That was the general economic crash, but auto economic hardship for detroit started back in the late 70s
VarroaStyle@reddit
Thats exactly his point???
DatSpicyBoi17@reddit (OP)
Wrong Redditor. I was replying to the guy who said "It was majority white in the 40s."
VarroaStyle@reddit
Exactly, thats the point it didnt collapse in the 40s because the right people was in the job, dunce
DatSpicyBoi17@reddit (OP)
And from the 40s to 2000s the auto industry was just fine until a shit ton of legislation and bailouts tanked the auto industry locally in the 2000s. Not because a majority black city hired a bunch of black people.
canacata@reddit
Are you joking? I thought you had half a brain for some reason. Diversity = fewer white people.
Anyways Detroit was white. It is "mostly black" now because the whites all fled the destruction.
AppleorchardIPA@reddit
Lmao imagine going through life thinking Detroit industry failed due to "mass hiring black workers" and not because it became infinitely cheaper to produce the same goods abroad due to free trade agreements.
Your brain would look like a walnut if it existed at all.
Davethemann@reddit
Well, a mix of that and still having unions jack up wages and worker costs
canacata@reddit
And paying 'diversity' workers union wages, making them uncompetitive with the Japanese. Unions worked great when they were worth it. But when you make them hire a bunch of unproductive workers...
jarizzle151@reddit
I dunno, Detroit seems fine nowadays
Ecstatic-Compote-595@reddit
union participation has been at historic lows for the last few years and decreasing, but it was at its highest post WWII. So you're arguing against your own position.
canacata@reddit
If you're an idiot sure
SilentAffairs93@reddit
Yet somehow those poor oppressed factory workers could afford \~\~houses\~\~ broken down single wide trailers for their families in \~\~safe\~\~ meth communities
Fixed that for you, tard.
canacata@reddit
Go look at the old factory worker houses in rustbelt cities. Three plus stories in neighborhoods full of their coworkers
hobomaxxing@reddit
This is because women joined the workplace en masse.
Higuos@reddit
"protected from layoffs"
I love how many ideologies on this planet involve closing your eyes and pretending scarcity doesn't exist.
MentalRadish3490@reddit
Ehh, it’s more fun that way. Also I give no shits about the finances of the boss. Unless you own the means of production your biggest concern should always be getting the most money for the least effort.
Graybealz@reddit
Lol, unions don't protect you from layoffs. Are you getting your union information from reddit?
Davethemann@reddit
No, hes right
It protects the people who have been there 35 years doing a dogshit job and leaves guys who have worked five or ten years but actually did amazing jobs in the cold
MentalRadish3490@reddit
True, you get laid off first. Then the union members.
Graybealz@reddit
So that's a resounding yes.
buttquack1999@reddit
Your terms are acceptable
JoePescisNuts@reddit
Is she though?
Sp33dl3m0n@reddit
Sounds like religious criticism to me.
DatSpicyBoi17@reddit (OP)
God CS Lewis was such a gigachad.
InquisitorMeow@reddit
Except that all the robber barons in our day and age claim to be doing what they do for the good of humanity. "Job creators" and all that.
luckac69@reddit
Did you read the quote at all??
InquisitorMeow@reddit
Yes? I'm pointing out that the Robber Barons of today act as omnipotent moral busybodies.
alurbase@reddit
Socialists tend to have problems with comprehension. Please be patient
Daddy_Parietal@reddit
We've been patient with them for 100 years. They used to write books, now they just 'read' them and pretend they are smarter than everyone else.
blazehazedayz@reddit
Yeah, we should all go back to working for unregulated robber barons that are totally fine with children losing their fingers in factories because OP can’t use slurs at work without getting in trouble. Great take.
SkirtOne8519@reddit
leftism in a nutshell Sad how many people are entirely blind to it
ObscureAnimeFan@reddit
Gemmy quote.
Salaino0606@reddit
Why do people say one thing and then do another thing? Tale as old as time.
canacata@reddit
He's obviously right. The people championing 'workers rights' are first and foremost progressives.
That means they will never talk about our right to not have to work with dangerous DEI candidates. Or weak and incompetent women. To carry these groups on our back. And the financial and social impact it has on us.
Like all modern "leftists" they are foremost liberals and progressives, no matter how much they protest otherwise. That supersedes everything else. So their original posturing comes out to mean very little.
Radaysha@reddit
Sure, but instead of offering a better alternative, the conservatives are like "Well the left is FOR workers rights, that has to mean I'm AGAINST them". And then they bootlick corpos and tell themselves that it's better that way.
Not because they really think it's better, it simply has to be better because it's the opposite from what the other side wants.
Divide et Impera in it's purest form. The corpos played all of us.
canacata@reddit
Can we stop saying "corpos" for fuck's sake.
Anyways the "corpos" don't like hiring worthless workers. They are forced as well.
__El_Presidente__@reddit
I mean it's either that or not existing, what are corpos supposed to do? All wealth comes from labour.
whiplashMYQ@reddit
Hows that boot taste?
canacata@reddit
How many boosters you on now?
whiplashMYQ@reddit
Poor corporations, that are somehow in your mind being forced to hire people. How will the megarich possibly survive this genocide against them?
Grow up
canacata@reddit
Great contribution, added a lot.
Daddy_Parietal@reddit
No. Fuck you
canacata@reddit
That was definitely worth posting.
CaughtOnTape@reddit
What’s wrong with "corpos"? Which word would you prefer us to use?
Isn’t it the shorten version of "corporations"?
canacata@reddit
Yes. I just hate these unnecessary shortened words. It makes everyone sound like a ditzy valley girl.
Daddy_Parietal@reddit
What a fucking boomer
TheOneWhoSlurms@reddit
I like to use the term because I enjoyed cyberpunk 2077
Raz98@reddit
I personally use it to show dismissive disrespect
A_for_Anonymous@reddit
Except where they directly benefit by a bit of DEI pozz because it divides and isolates workers, and hinders unions.
canacata@reddit
Ford was doing great under unions. Under diversity, not so much.
Pretty obvious who they choose to hire when they are given the options (straight white males) and who they only hire when forced to (everyone else).
thatgymdude@reddit
No let them keep using it and identify themselves, its the left wing version of saying "based" irl.
InquisitorMeow@reddit
Forced by who? When's the last time the government stepped in to punish a corporation for the lack of diversity?
twogaysnakes@reddit
They say corpos then complain about a monopoly installed by the state.
yawls@reddit
Reject the false dichotomy.
Embrace the third position.
PeterFechter@reddit
If you can't fight them, join them. The S&P500 is so far up 23% this year.
Dill_Donor@reddit
Whatever it takes to own the libs
rmg2004@reddit
most leftists despise liberals. i wouldn’t expect the average channer to actually know what those words mean, though
Legalator@reddit
Lmao both liberals and leftists want the same thing, believe in the same woke nonsense, and do the same thing.
Liberals and leftists are literally the same.
rmg2004@reddit
idk what to tell you man, they want completely different things. look at obama/hillary vs bernie if you want to see the difference
canacata@reddit
I literally addressed this trope directly in my post. You pretend you are different but are almost exactly the same.
rmg2004@reddit
i cant really argue with this schizo shit lol
ch1zzm0nster@reddit
You're gonna get banned for off-the-charts levels of based, brother
Feynmanprinciple@reddit
Do any of you have any examples
vaydevay@reddit
Sorry boss, just opinions and complaints here
ccznen@reddit
To the Marxist, those who oppose their revolution are part of the outgroup and therefore by their twisted definition cannot be workers.
This is how commies of all sorts justify inhuman violence and repression against their opponents.
Chrimunn@reddit
As a leftist a recurring point in the discussion spaces I follow is that ‘you have more in common with the blue collar maga truck driver than you could ever have in common with the wealthy elite’
So in case you intentionally set out to reinforce generalizations over nuance, I’m going to leave this here to break the echo chamber.
bethemanwithaplan@reddit
Yeah I love getting fucked by the rich
Jeez a union is so terrible aww jeeeeez
You have to pay dues for all the benefits it brings. Shucks! Why isn't it free? Why can't everyone else fix society and let me just benefit without effort or sacrifice?
Jeeeez so unfair to me, the main character
CatMan_Sad@reddit
Implying the modern American left is for workers rights is the funniest thing I’ve read today. What do you think is the purpose of allowing millions of undocumented migrants?
UgandanWarlord@reddit
…what? Do you think leftists want people who are desperate to enter the country be allowed in just to fill jobs? Are you stupid ?
shangumdee@reddit
In theory you wouldn't like Berny didn't. However he like a million others switched his position when it became not socially acceptable to do so.
CatMan_Sad@reddit
Look I understand it’s your first year of college so critical thinking is really hard but just do your best next time alright
DatSpicyBoi17@reddit (OP)
Look up the net worth of the top union bosses then get back to me about how much you hate "the rich".
ivo004@reddit
Who cares?!? They gained their money largely by being bulldogs and fighting for the rights and compensation of the people who chose them as leaders. If they do a good job and are rewarded, I find it far easier to support their path to riches than I do bullshit businessmen who make money by exploiting people or nepot babies who inherit their wealth. If your justification for being anti-union is "look at the millionaire on the labor side" then you've fallen hook, line, and sinker for the class division bullshit that the billionaire owners want you to lap up. Always. Support. Labor.
shangumdee@reddit
You're acting like they don't have a deep history of mafia connections
SINGULARITY1312@reddit
I am pro union but some unions are compromised in their purpose as a union. A union being hierarchical is what causes this. There ends up being some mini class dynamic that separates the interests of representatives and the workers as a whole.
bunker_man@reddit
That's true, but like, so what? Corrupt unions are usually still better than not having one.
ivo004@reddit
While the owner class of billionaires just has to agree with themselves... Simplicity doesn't mean something is better. Coming to a compromise that addresses the concerns of multiple groups in a coalition is an inarguably difficult task. I'm not saying unions as they exist in the US are a perfect solution, but they are one of the most effective (and only) tools labor has to force ownership to come to the table for negotiations. You don't see billionaires and the politicians that support them being pitted against each other, but you sure do see them spend a lot of money trying to convince the working class that the real enemy is people making slightly more than them instead of the handful of people making unfathomable amounts of money via exploitation.
SINGULARITY1312@reddit
You’re not saying anything to me by saying unions are good. Obviously. But we need to be able to criticize them and organize them intelligently to have them succeed
ivo004@reddit
Yeah and this thread is about an unhinged post saying you shouldn't support labor rights because they might hire a black person or fire you for being upset that they hired a black person. Totally legitimate criticisms of union leadership. I'm all for critiquing institutions to improve them, but this conversation wasn't exactly enlightened before I dropped my generic defense of the concept of organized labor, so I guess I missed the intelligent criticisms on offer.
DatSpicyBoi17@reddit (OP)
Nowhere did the original post mention black people you dishonest hack. The prime complaints were forced unionization and unions either being in bed with or bowing the knee to HR or at least people with union sympathies who support both.
ivo004@reddit
You're actually right, your post didn't mention it but the two top comment threads pretty much immediately devolved into discussions about WHY HR would be knocking on your door. Hint: it's not to "force you to unionize", it's likely because you've said some politically charged stuff about gender/race/class in our country that isn't acceptable for workplace discussion. I've never heard of HR telling an employee that they have to unionize; by definition HR exists to protect the interests of the company, and encouraging your workforce to organize usually does not dovetail with maximizing revenue...
SINGULARITY1312@reddit
Yeah okay fair enough. I guess I just find it more convincing to be accurate and balanced with arguments even when responding to irrationality. Saying unions are only good in response to someone saying they’re all bad doesn’t work very well ime. Whatever, have a good day
MalekithofAngmar@reddit
Who cares? The invisible hand dictates that all billionaires became billionaires by providing critical market services to people. If they provide good products and are rewarded, I find it far easier to support their path to riches than I do to bureaucrats who monopolize labor, bully politicians, and support corruption to enrich their guild. If your justification for being anti-corpo is "look at the billionaires" you've fallen hook, line, and sinker for the class division bullshit that millionaire union bosses want you to lap up. Always. Suck. Corpo. Cock.
ivo004@reddit
Yay I made someone on the 4chan sub criticize me for being a "le redditor"!
MalekithofAngmar@reddit
Some unions are good. Some unions are bad. Some unions only exist to enrich their members. Just like corpos.
SINGULARITY1312@reddit
True but generally the concept of a union is built around representing workers from within a capitalist system
MalekithofAngmar@reddit
Representing *their own* workers. Say the post office union now makes it take twice as long for my mail to get here so that they can work a 32 hour week. I am unsure how this benefits me at all, in fact, it is all negative, despite me being a worker.
SINGULARITY1312@reddit
True. But the solution to this is probably more funding or workers for the postal service if something modest like that is hurting the productivity of the workplace. If ultimately things are in balance but the cost is risen for the consumers, maybe working in solidarity with others towards a livable wage in general. But often unions and especially cooperatives are able to make things more efficient as well. I suggest looking into cecosesola cooperative in Venezuela. They have extremely competitive wages, pricing of goods, and work directly with consumers for the benefit of both parties while running everything bottom-up.
MalekithofAngmar@reddit
Where are the funds coming from? Who is paying the extra workers?
SINGULARITY1312@reddit
It’s possible, but often it isn’t the case. Usually it’s best to target money being funneled to the top of the hierarchy where it won’t be used for the interests of society or held onto forever. But if there were a case where workers were asking for an imbalanced wage then the rest of society can negotiate relations with them as well. Especially if they have to deal with other workers who are organized and able to withhold their services or labour at will.
MalekithofAngmar@reddit
Sometimes we can't. Sometimes unions hold monopolies over a certain kind of labor and they use it to bend the state over a rail and give it a good pounding. In America, this usually only occurs in public or semi-public sectors, think police unions making it impossible to fire bad cops or teachers unions making it hard to fire predatory teachers. Or historically, you have PATCO.
I don't understand your perspective. You argue that it's best to target the money going to the top, because it "won't be used for the interests of society", but this betrays a correct understanding of the way the wealthy use their riches, which is by plugging it into companies via investments. This is very desirable behavior. Middle class and lower class people are more likely to spend a greater percentage of their income on consumer goods, which is also desirable behavior. Neither to me takes great precedence over another.
I think it is important to ensure that all people live a reasonably prosperous life, but neither corporations nor unions are trying to do that. They are amoral institutions out for themselves, and the goals they attempt to achieve are self-centered. any alignment with the goal of maximizing happiness for society semi-random, due to principles like the imbalance of power between employees and employers and the invisible hand. But these principles are far from all encompassing, and it is clear to anyone with two eyes that companies regularly fail to maximize the general wellbeing despite the invisible hand. Why then, is it so hard for people to acknowledge that unions can be the same? I suppose it's because unions are much less powerful as a general rule.
SINGULARITY1312@reddit
The problems you’re giving with unions would be solved with even more organizing. The problem is disproportionate decision making power in society. If some people who aren’t getting their fair share start to get it, the solution to that imbalance isn’t dragging them down to the rest of the workers, it’s helping others unionize in solidarity.
Police unions are a problem because police are a problem. Won’t get into that one.
Wealthy do reinvest their money. But part of the problem is the level of power they have to invest in what is only in their interests over anyone else despite not earning that wealth. Lower and middle class people dont have nearly as much liquid value to give relatively in the first place because it’s being taken by those rich people in question.
Unions aren’t an inherent good or bad, but their structure generally ties them closer to the interests of more people than capitalist entities such as corporations do. The problems with unions tend to be solved by going further and unionizing more people in general or removing the need for a union via directly, fully democratized economies.
CoopyThicc@reddit
Head of IBEW will never match the net worth of Fortune 500 CEOs
nitonitonii@reddit
the top bosses of everything are rich
centurio_v2@reddit
Great, now do their lowest paid union workers vs lowest paid union in the same trade.
shangumdee@reddit
My issue is public sector employees negotiating with unelected people to spend money that we have no choice in contributing to.
thegame2386@reddit
What benefits? The ability to hold whole industries hostage over a grievance? The ability to freeze out healthy competition in a free market by absolute white knuckled control of the labor force? Or the parasitic money grubbing of so called "organisers" and representatives?
Unions are, at best, a vestigial organ of a long bygone age and deserve to be relegated to their place in history alongside other cautionary tales and fallacies.
SINGULARITY1312@reddit
The labour force is what creates the value in the first place. They should actually directly own it, but a union is a compromise.
No-Confusion1544@reddit
Say you invented a widget. You then formed a company to market and sell the widget. You took out a loan to buy equipment to manufacture the widget, and hired people to run the equipment. Are you saying those employees are the individuals responsible for creating the value of your widget?
SINGULARITY1312@reddit
Largely, yes. You are also responsible as well. It depends on how much labour and personal property is proportionately invested into the project. I’m not against risk taking investors making more than the average associate. But they should be dictators of the entire factory and distribution apparatus. When you make things proportionate things tend to get quite a lot more even and equal across the board. There’s no justification for anyone making a billion dollars, or even a hundred million. The vast majority of capitalist businesses operate in a parasitic fashion from the top down via the capital owners.
No-Confusion1544@reddit
Why?
SINGULARITY1312@reddit
Because they are responsible for creating most of the value of these projects most of the time, especially at scale and long term. There are cases where that’s not true of course though.
No-Confusion1544@reddit
Ok, sure… but HOW exactly are they responsible for that?
Im speaking of my prior hypothetical, not in any greater sense. I fail to see how employees who were not responsible for inventing the widget, funding the company, investing in it’s infrastructure, or doing anything aside from performing the labor necessary to operate equipment are credited for creating its value.
SINGULARITY1312@reddit
It depends based on the example, but it’s very rare a normal non-exploitation based person could afford the entire infrastructure of the company single handedly unless they were rich enough to live off the backs of other workers.
Even then, you’re minimizing labour as if it’s one expendable part of how things are produced. It’s probably THE most important one. A general strike can bring entire nations to their knees worse than a power outage or other factor. If the owner of most companies didn’t show up to work, things would likely run just fine, if not even better sometimes.
Let’s give a good faith example here. Say you’re investing your personal life savings you earned through personal labour into a project and you rent/buy office space and tools and various other things needed to start a project. You can and should have more control compared to each worker you’re hiring to fill each position since you are investing more into the company. That doesn’t mean you should be the supreme dictator of the company still, because there are others invested in the company as well who should have proportionate say in how things affect them. You would likely have a more influential positional than most again, but it shouldn’t be total. It needs to be proportionate. And as that company grows, your investment will become dwarfed compared to the many others involved with the company and its growth. There’s no justification from any angle how one person could earn 100 million dollars while their workers make any normal wage. You are not putting 700 times more personal investment into the company than any worker. That’s impossible.
The idea that because one started a project initially that therefore they should have total ownership forever is logic you could use to justify monarchy. It just serves those already in power holding onto and expanding their power.
No-Confusion1544@reddit
Im trying to keep this particular discussion limited to the example i provided in my original post (i.e. you started a widget company), rather than billion dollar corporations. First and foremost because it cuts a lot of miscellaneous emotional bullshit and the greater socio-economic power structure complications out of the equation, and second because that stuff isn’t really pertinent to the discussion of “who’s responsible for the value” of whatever is being produced.
Like sure, a general strike would wreck a nation in a lot of ways. But we’re not talking about a general strike, we’re talking about who’s responsible for the value of a widget in your company. Does that make sense to you?
And im pretty familiar with the socialist/communist ideas of democratization of the workplace and ownership of the “means of production”. What I’m interested in finding out is what that particular concept looks like to you, specifically, within the context of my hypothetical.
SINGULARITY1312@reddit
Okay sorry, I’ll focus on your specific example. I think I just used those other examples to emphasize how much labour makes up the value of the project you mentioned. It depends to what scale this widget business was and how it is structured id say as well. Because if you for example built a bunch of robots from scratch in your garage to build widgets for you, and you hired a maid to clean your garage once a week, I mean yeah that’s yours entirely to own, and the maid is probably just entitled to safety and relevant compensation. That’s why I’m using other examples to illustrate how much value in most businesses is comprised of worker’s labour vs initial investment. I think there’s a balance there, but I do think that generally it is in the workers moreso especially long term. And I think you can have proportionate decision-making power based on that balance. If you look into successful examples of cooperatives you’ll often find that this balance can be reached and is part of the success of the company. Look into cecosesola as a prime model for cooperatives if you want an example of what I’d love to see become widespread.
No-Confusion1544@reddit
With all due respect you’re going well outnof your way to be as vague as possible.
SINGULARITY1312@reddit
I’m not. You just left out a lot of factors I had to adjust for. And a lot of it is contextually based. So what exactly am I not answering that you’re trying to ask then?
No-Confusion1544@reddit
Yes
AntDracula@reddit
They are free to do that in capitalism, the inverse is not true in communism.
SINGULARITY1312@reddit
Workers owning their surplus value and the means of production is the literal definition of socialism and the core criticism of capitalism. Cope lmao
SuperEpicGamer69@reddit
Plenty of coops exist and nobody's out trying to destroy them. It just so happens that people who touch grass and have families to feed tend to care more about a steady paycheck than "owning the means of production".
SINGULARITY1312@reddit
Oh yes actually, people are out to destroy them. Capitalist and state entities share different class interests than workers do.
Owning the means of production means having a direct say in how your life and workplace runs. People with no life or workplace have no interest in that.
SuperEpicGamer69@reddit
The problem with more extreme leftists is that they refuse to see anything as other than black or white. Such a simplistic worldview is pure fantasy and leads to a lot of confusion.
What are the "class interests" of the Unabomber? Why should an underpaid manual laborer feel any kind of solidarity with a well-off senior specialist? Similarly, why should a small family business in any way identify with the large corporation screwing them over? Do I turn from an oppressed worker to bloodthirsty capitalist the moment I enter my home and pay the babysitter?
The broader the categories the more arbitrary and useless they are. And 2 is as broad as it gets.
Another common theme is treating every relationship purely in terms of power dynamics paying no attention to any nuances or tradeoffs. For example:
Have you considered that most people may not even want that?
If I have no idea how to run a car factory then why would I, even partially, accept such a responsibility? Belief that having "no boss" is something exclusively beneficial is childish. It's a tradeoff that many people consciously choose not to make despite having the means to do so.
mrboomtastic3@reddit
Unions are far from vestigial. It's a safety net that continues to adapt as working conditions evolve. While the challenges of the 19th century might differ from today's, unions still play a vital role in protecting workers' rights, securing fair wages, and ensuring safe working environments. Just look at how they helped millions of workers navigate layoffs during the pandemic or how they're addressing the gig economy now.
Negrom@reddit
Spent 6 years in a union and have zero desire to be in one again lol.
In my experience the general culture, protection of shitty workers, and leadership positions being entirely based on how much dick you suck and not actual qualifications, left me not impressed.
Kanye_Is_Underrated@reddit
in a nutshell, its trying to bring in all the cancer from politics and society found elsewhere in life into one of the few somewhat meritocratic places left, business.
rewarding your best worker because he's literally 4 times as productive as some DEI hire? cant be having that! everyone gets paid the same because we are fair!
BanzaiKen@reddit
Some unions are masochistic cowards, mine said they will strike if the company pushes the vax. Company backed down, I dodged it, boomers got hosed and pushed out, now younger people are leading it aggressively but fairly. It's all about local leadership. They've managed to get almost 10% COLA raises to keep up with inflation and I dodged the vax. Chemical workers have a decent union at the least.
Paradox@reddit
Coke or Pepsi?
BanzaiKen@reddit
Faygo
zid0n2@reddit
Bepis
SkirtOne8519@reddit
“protecting retards”
Some make that the goal of civilization
keeleon@reddit
I like the idea of unions, but in 20 years, Ive only ever seen them protect and encourage incompetence.
SlapHappyRodriguez@reddit
Have you worked for a union or voted one into a shop that was not union. The union will bargain form you but can make no guarantees about the quality of the contract. The attitude is that unions are working for you against the big business yet the Union's upper echelon are paid a ton of money. If one of your union brothers is slacking you just suffer for it. You can't call them out and you can't do their job.
I would be for unions if I could vote them out as easily as I can vote them in but they are insecure about their position and will fuck you harder than the company will for trying to de-unionize.
AntDracula@reddit
Address the point.
TheJauntyCarrot@reddit
He is, hes describing the free rider problem that arises from not participating in unions/collective bargaining. If a union negotiates a max 8 hour shift or a cost of living pay increase for steel workers, those workers benefit whether they pay union dues or not. So if you are allowed to choose whether or not you pay to join the union, on an individual level, it doesn't make sense to join because you will benefit from union actions regardless of whether you pay for it, but of course if everyone did that then unions wouldn't be able to negotiate for anything.
AntDracula@reddit
Address the point that smelly reddit commies want everything centralized to the government "tO prOtEcT wOrKerS" but also want the ability to remove their employment, thus effectively condemning those people to starve to death (ironically).
People who concurrently hold these beliefs are either evil or stupid. Make it make sense or own up to it.
TheJauntyCarrot@reddit
I dont agree with most reddit leftists, but you can at least try to represent their positions accurately (if you're able to someday engage with people who disagree with you like an adult might). These are generally people who support UBI, universal healthcare, and housing-first homlessness policies. No worker is starving to death because they got fired under those policies.
Your point seems to be, "these lefties want to protect workers, but they also want workers to be fired sometimes, how evil", which is just kind of baby-brained because every human being thinks sometimes people should be fired, it just depends on what you think justifies it or not. The two reasons lefties want people fired identified in the post are, 'disagrees politically' and 'doesnt pay union dues'. I've already addressed the union bit as the majority of the post focuses on that. For the 'disagrees politically': its so broad as to be a waste of time discussing without specifics. Most people would agree that firing someone for voting republican/democrat is not reasonable, but most people also think its ok to fire some guy who makes racist comments to his immigrant coworkers all the time. There is a wide gap in the middle there where people can and do disagree, but the post doesn't make any position clear beyond 'disagrees politically' and some vague 'HR blacklisting' comment, so all you're really doing is projecting your own opinions onto the post.
AntDracula@reddit
Thanks for admitting you want centralized power over employment, including the ability to remove dissidents. So you’re evil.
TheJauntyCarrot@reddit
How much of the money I pay in taxes goes towards welfare keeping you alive? Are you physically able to dress yourself in the morning without assistance from your handler? Please request your aide read my comments to you again a little slower so maybe you can understand some small portion of it.
What do you think "centralized power over employment" means? Where have I advocated for whatever the fuck that is? All I've said is that sometimes its reasonable to fire people, but sometimes it isnt.
AntDracula@reddit
If it’s reasonable to fire people, then it’s unreasonable to nationalize industries, so socialism can’t happen in your framework.
Or you’re evil.
MalekithofAngmar@reddit
The idea that unions are all good because they protect workers rights is at least as stupid, and possibly stupider, than saying that all companies are good because the market requires that they provide worthwhile services to stay in business.
Anagoth9@reddit
The straw-est of men
Wishshow@reddit
Regardless of the text this image pisses me off imagine having something killing the snake. Which I assume is a symbol of the gadsden flag.
Why kill a symbol of basically don’t mess with me? It’s like not even aggressive it’s basically saying just leave me alone and you do your thing and I do mine.
This just makes them look evil because now the cat represents aggression and oppression.
Wtf are they thinking?
DatSpicyBoi17@reddit (OP)
Because commies hate individualism.
Billybobgeorge@reddit
Anon is talking out of his ass FYI. SCOTUS said in 2018 that you can't be forced to join a union. Janus v. AFSCME
nonexistentnight@reddit
I'm tired of all these posts that are just screenshots of boomer-esque rants with no interaction. Where's the "lol internet"? It's like someone's dumbass opinion doesn't get traction on 4chan so they post it here, all the while making fun of "le reddit".
slop_sucker@reddit
every single screenshot on r4chan or rgreentext these days:
>shitty, brainrotted fox news opinion
comment reply in screenshot: "OP IS INCREDIBLY BASED!!!"
ykzdropdead@reddit
member when people from rpolitics use to not go into other boards to spread their rpolitics views? I member
mrboomtastic3@reddit
The Geneva Congress of 1866 is the common name assigned to the 1st General Congress of the International Workingmen's Association, held in Geneva, Switzerland from 3 to 8 September 1866. The gathering was attended by 46 regular and 14 fraternal delegates from a total of five countries. The Geneva Congress is best remembered for its watershed decision to make universal establishment of the 8-hour working day a main goal of the International Socialist movement.
Benefit now and work against the so many benefits that were fought for you long ago. Bootlicker are the worst. I'm not saying be a commie or a socialist but don't tell me unions aren't worth it.
Paradox@reddit
Disregard other programming, write a song about apple sauce
DECAThomas@reddit
“This person has a different opinion than me, properly informed by historical context….they must be a bot!”
Fucking idiot
mlx1992@reddit
First day on Reddit?
MalekithofAngmar@reddit
Unions are good or bad or neutral. Just like corporations. There are plenty of shitty unions, plenty of good unions, and plenty of unions that are only fighting for themselves.
FreelancerFL@reddit
They're wannabe fascists themselves who depend on group think because they're too weak, mentally, physically, emotionally, or all of the above to fight for themselves so they depend on the collective to fight for them, and when somebody rejects groupthink because they're mentally, physically, and emotionally capable of articulating arguments for themselves these groupthink fascists attack them.
It's why libertarians are memed in the states, not because their ideas are bad, it's because they support individualism and being accountable for yourself, while most leftist ideology is groupthink oriented making them the Antithesis of their ideology, an enemy to defeat for the "greater good" which they arbitrarily define as anybody not in the group.
rmg2004@reddit
libertarians are memed because theyre incredibly stupid, spend 5 minutes asking them what a libertarian society would look like and youll see its main feature is a life expectancy of 40
FreelancerFL@reddit
You should write a book on how to describe an ideology extremely poorly.
I doubt you've actually had a real conversation with a Libertarian out in the wild. Only the basement dwelling neckbeards in high school who also poorly understand Libertarianism.
Salt_Lingonberry1122@reddit
All they agree is max freedom. Which is vague ass fudge or the magical as long as you are not hurting anyone theirs is no such thing as loopholes or nefarious ways of exploiting that.
Salt_Lingonberry1122@reddit
A bear destroy their entire ideology in the state a couple of years ago.
ProMikeZagurski@reddit
I had to join a union to bag groceries and work in a parking lot. Both were minimum wage with no benefits. The union let the contract lapse in the last job so we didn't get raises for more than a year. Government loves unions because it's a bureaucracy going against a bureaucracy.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
AutoModerator@reddit
Sorry, your post has been removed. You must have more than 25 karma to submit posts to /r/4chan.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
dikbutjenkins@reddit
The argument that these people do far worse by workers than corporations is insanely false
Joe_Wer@reddit
Wtf are you talking about? Most modern ancoms are just LARPers
dikbutjenkins@reddit
ok and?
Joe_Wer@reddit
Larper
dikbutjenkins@reddit
bootlicker
slop_sucker@reddit
"Does anybody else here agree that the status quo is BASED??? and efforts to improve the workplace through collective action is CRINGE???"
GoblinFvcker@reddit
The cat butchering a snake is a masterful self-burn. They are literally aligning with state's power to knock down the rebellious (symbolised by a snake on gadsden flag). And thus, this is a great choice of pic in my opinion
Joe_Wer@reddit
Most of the time they don't help or even like blue collar workers either. Its revolutionary LARP that is disconnected from the working class completely
Trendmade@reddit
Like a cat can kill a snake
EstradaEnsalada@reddit
Unemployed fingers typed this
flipcoder@reddit
The resistance is the enforcement arm of the state. They are put there to sabotage real resistance. If a resistor reports to your boss, he’s working for your boss.
Zealousideal-Talk787@reddit
It’s like every system has its flaws, and we should work to improve our current systems or something
A_for_Anonymous@reddit
You're the 100 IQ guy
canacata@reddit
meaningless platitudes
Zealousideal-Talk787@reddit
Sure honey, whatever you think, don’t forget your meds!
The_Mortuary@reddit
Average lib:
"I'm for the rights and protections of the underprivileged"
"You disagreed with me what are you mentally handicapped?"
Paradox@reddit
They didn't delete their comment, they blocked you.
Salt_Lingonberry1122@reddit
Don't you know real communism hasn't been tried before .😒😢
AntDracula@reddit
Address the point.
Comfytendy@reddit
Same people who advocate against body shaming except for people who disagree with you.
Necessary-Weekend194@reddit
Someone unqualified (probably an ivan, a david, or a wang anyway) speaks about something they don’t know about.
At this point I’m just accepting it’s just overconfident high school kids and trolls posting on it now.
AntDracula@reddit
Address the point.
Necessary-Weekend194@reddit
Already did, rword.
I’m sure you have a witty redditor zinger as a reply, lemme have it.
AntDracula@reddit
You absolutely did not, you deflected hardcore. Address the point directly.
Necessary-Weekend194@reddit
are you really trying to be stern on reddit LMFAO come on man.
AntDracula@reddit
No you didn't. Address the point that smelly reddit commies want everything centralized to the government "tO prOtEcT wOrKerS" but also want the ability to remove their employment, thus effectively condemning those people to starve to death (ironically).
Necessary-Weekend194@reddit
Yeah I addressed my feelings on the OOP in my initial comment???? 🤷🏿
AntDracula@reddit
You didn't, tho.
Necessary-Weekend194@reddit
That’s on you
AntDracula@reddit
Nah it’s the guy who dodged the point.
Necessary-Weekend194@reddit
Ah I see now. Go on, I’ll let you have the classic redditor last laugh so i win comment, my treat.
AntDracula@reddit
Still dodging.
SINGULARITY1312@reddit
You’re cringe
AntDracula@reddit
DatSpicyBoi17@reddit (OP)
Which part? The HR blacklisting or union requirement legislation because they both happen.
Necessary-Weekend194@reddit
You posted twice.
DatSpicyBoi17@reddit (OP)
Glitch
Necessary-Weekend194@reddit
Good old reddit
hunterwillian@reddit
Shalom
DatSpicyBoi17@reddit (OP)
Which part? The HR blacklisting or union requirement legislation because they both happen.
Nutaholic@reddit
Sometimes people have to be forced to do things for their own good, which is ironic since the OP mocks a straw man which "complains that corpos make you work." We have lots of examples of people acting against their own interests like vaccinations or drug abuse. Are there union leaders who cynically exploit the structures of their organizations to aggrandize themselves and/or their peers at the expense of others, yeah of course. But the same can be said of essentially any organization, business or essentially group of people of any kind.
AntDracula@reddit
Communism ain't coming to save you, you will have to get a job. Ah-ha.
TuckerDaGreat@reddit
OP is definitely the guy who was running around Baltimore beating up opposing fans after their last game
Salt_Lingonberry1122@reddit
I think they called it grifting in the streets, yo.
spilleddrinkcombo@reddit
You have to look out for yourself.