Does America have more Scottish or Irish influence?
Posted by northcarolinian9595@reddit | AskAnAmerican | View on Reddit | 110 comments
Scottish and Scots-Irish moved to America in the 1700s to places such as North Carolina and other areas throughout the South and Appalachia. In the 1800s, waves of Irish immigrants moved to America, especially to cities in the Northeast such as Boston, New York, etc.
Overall, would you say Scotland or Ireland had a greater impact on America?
WideGlideReddit@reddit
Ireland hands down.
MarcatBeach@reddit
Scottish have more influence over the founding of the country. Irish have more influence in the expansion of the country.
Erotic-Career-7342@reddit
Wouldn’t be able to tell the difference
blueponies1@reddit
Distinctively? Irish. For a later mass immigration, the Scottish are more spread out and integrated with the earlier English settlement to be as distinguished in the modern day, despite having a large presence themselves.
OptatusCleary@reddit
I think that the type of influence is different. America was influenced by Scottish (and Ulster Scots) people very early on, and elements of Scottish culture run so deep in America that they might not be easily noticed or distinguished from “American” culture. Irish Catholic (as opposed to Ulster Scots) immigrants generally came later and were more of a distinct community. So America has more things that are noticeably “Irish,” but the mere fact that they are noticeable shows that Irish culture is more foreign to general American culture than Scottish culture is. Scottish culture of the 18th century is like a parent culture to both modern Scottish and modern American culture.
I’m of Irish descent myself, from a family that came fairly recently in terms of Irish immigrants. My family certainly has cultural ties to Ireland and Irish culture, but I wouldn’t say that the “Irish” things we do or think of are especially common in America among non-Irish descended people.
ColossusOfChoads@reddit
It was either Stravinsky or Dvorak who toured America in order to learn about American music. For the first few weeks he said that he had trouble telling it apart from Scottish music.
benjpolacek@reddit
Sounds like Dvorak. I know he spent a lot of time in northeast Iowa where there were a few Czech communities. I think Spillville is the name of one of them.
Tacoshortage@reddit
This is a really good point. My family is of Scottish descent and they came over very, very early. Consequently, we really have no cultural ties to Scotland. I think of us as just about as American as you can get with no outside cultural identity at all.
Indifferentchildren@reddit
It depends on where you are. Boston, NYC, Chicago, Irish. Appalachian mountains, Scottish.
HowSupahTerrible@reddit
Chicago is more Polish than Irish I think.
Mysteryman64@reddit
That was largely after the fall of the Soviet Union, I thought?
Darmok47@reddit
No, there was a wave of immigration from what is now Poland in the late 1800s and early 20th century. The 1906 novel The Jungle, about Chicago meatpackers, focuses on a Polish immigrant family.
benjpolacek@reddit
It wasn't just Chicago either. Lots of rust belt cities have big Polish populations. Detroit, Cleveland, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, Buffalo. Even where I grew up in Nebraska, you had a good sized Polish community in Omaha due to meat packing and small towns like Loup City and Fullerton and Columbus had a lot of Poles too. Granted Nebraska has more Czechs than Poles. I'd say Nebraska is mostly German and Czech influenced
Mission-Coyote4457@reddit
The Jungle is about a Lithuanian family but the point still stands
Darmok47@reddit
You're right. For some reason I remember them being Polish.
Darmok47@reddit
EDIT: They're Lithuanian, not Polish. Been years since I read it, misremembered.
Mysteryman64@reddit
Huh, learned something new today. Thanks!
FutureEar6482@reddit
Chicago has always had a very large Polish population.
benjpolacek@reddit
Might depend on what side of town but I'm not a Chicagoan
Mission-Coyote4457@reddit
yeah but it's more Irish than it is Scottish (by a lot)
ShakespearianShadows@reddit
This is the right answer
benjpolacek@reddit
I'd say Irish, though what complicates it more is that many of the people in the south were Scots-Irish, meaning they were from Scotland, moved to Ireland than to America. So even the "Scottish" elements of the South have a little bit of Irish flavor, though tinged with Scots heritage.
amishcatholic@reddit
The Scots were more on the "ground floor" earlier one, and so I'd say they set the overall tone more so. The Irish are very important as well, however. And it's important to note that a lot of the early "Scottish" settlement--probably even a majority--were Ulster Scots--or Scots from Northern Ireland who had been transplanted there for a few generations instead of from Scotland directly--although culturally very Protestant, and so perhaps more Scottish than Irish in culture.
GlobalYak6090@reddit
I would say Irish 1000% but I’m also from New England so
Mission-Coyote4457@reddit
I would assume Southern New England as well?
GlobalYak6090@reddit
You got it
caln93@reddit
Speaking for from the Midwest, who? Hahahaha. We are all German and Nordic around here. But I would say Irish given the number of Irish bars compared to Scottish anything.
Mission-Coyote4457@reddit
the midwest has capitalism, that was coined by Adam Smith, who was Scottish.
As part of the US the Midwest has been in a country with nineteen Presidents of Scottish descent, and only two of Irish descent.
There are more places in Minnesota with Scottish names than with Irish names (Lake Calhoun and Edina are both of Scottish).
caln93@reddit
Ok. Capitalism isn’t isolated here. Odd factoid to put down. I’m telling you from personal experience. Irish is much more prominent than Scottish anything. Calhoun was just renamed to an indigenous name, so that one is gone.
A descendant as president does not imbue the country with cultural identity based on ancestors. We don’t start wearing tartans because of who is president.
Up here I’ve never really heard of Scottish things. Irish background, yes. I was giving my experience. Maybe in the south there is a greater influence. Up here the main influences are Germans and Swedes. Between the two mentioned, Irish is more identifiable than Scottish.
Mission-Coyote4457@reddit
I didn't say it was isolated anywhere, the question you were answering was whether or not Scotland or Ireland has had more influence on the United States, the midwest being largely settled by Germans doesn't take away any of the British (including Scottish) things that just come with being American. For example, I've been to the Minnesota state fair, there was plenty of fried chicken there. Fried chicken is Scottish. You may not know what you're looking at is Scottish but it still is. Not all Catholic Churches are from Irish influence (directly) but all Presbyterian churches are of from Scottish influence, and there's a bunch of them in the Twin Cities. Golf is from Scotland, is pretty prevelant in every state, including Minnesota. Not everyone in Minneapolis who eats friend chicken or drives by a Presbyterian church or a golf course on their way to work realizes those things are Scottish, but they still are.
Whereas by contrast, what's actually Irish about an Irish pub other than the decorations? Like what other than that actually makes it different than other pubs/bars? (is it nothing? because it seems like it's nothing) It seems like the Irish being otherized for a while back in the day made their stuff more visible, but how much did they change America long term? Some (largely by kicking the door down for Catholicism to have a presence in America, which later groups benefited from) but I don't think on a day to day basis there's that much influence there for most people other than shamrock nicknacks and Catholicism.
caln93@reddit
Thank you for explaining the culture of Minnesota to me, a born and raised Minnesotan. I must have been raised completely incorrectly.
Po. Ta. Toes. The prosecution rests.
Mission-Coyote4457@reddit
Potatoes are not from Ireland, they're indigenous to the new world. The Irish got potatoes from the Americas not the other way around
LoyalKopite@reddit
I say Ireland & Italy had more influence on US especially in parts of Northeast while Mexico in South and West Coast.
Mission-Coyote4457@reddit
If our history began at Ellis Island then that would certainly be the right answer
LoyalKopite@reddit
Discussion is not about where our history began but which group has been most influential.
MaggieMae68@reddit
This is an interesting question because the Scottish influence really came first.
Scots were some of the original settlers, especially in the Appalachian areas. In the 1600s trade between Scotland and the Colonies was at a high - especially in tobacco and cotton. Bluegrass music can be traced back to Scottish singing traditions and the banjo was created to emulate the "droning" quality of the bagpipe by Scots immigrants. Call-and-response singing, especially the Black and enslaved spirituals were highly influenced by Scottish historical epics that did the same. In fact some enslaved people learned to speak Gaelic before they learned to speak English.
Washington Irving, Edgar Allen Poe, Janes Fenimore Cooper, and Herman Melville were Scottish-American writers who influenced our culture and our literature.
The bulk of Irish immigration came later - in the 1820s through the 1840s, the Irish were over 1/3 of all immigrants to the US. Those later immigrants flooded our workforce and are largely responsible for the spread of Catholicism in the US. I think because the Irish came over in such a concentrated volume and shorter time period, their influence was more noticeable and has become more ritualized and common. Things like celebrating St. Patrick's Day and so forth is more well known than some of the Scottish traditions like Hogmanay.
Agile_Property9943@reddit
The banjo is an African American instrument, not Scottish
rileyoneill@reddit
Something to think about... There were 4-5 million people in Ireland in 1800. Those people would have 80 million descendants by 2024, and of those 80 million descendants 75 million of them live outside of Ireland.
lawfox32@reddit
Weren't there around 9 million in Ireland by the time of the famine--and there are only now again 5 million there, meaning the population has never recovered from the famine (really a genocide) and consequent diaspora?
I'm from Chicago and then moved to New England--including 4 years in Boston-- and my dad's family is Irish, so to me it seems clear that it's the Irish, but that could very well be regional. Several of my siblings grew up thinking Catholicism was the majority denomination in the US, because the VAST majority of people where we grew up were Catholic and of Irish descent (and to be clear-- we weren't actually raised Catholic. We were raised Lutheran in accordance with our mom's grandparents' German and Swedish origins--our dad converted to Lutheranism and later became what I jokingly refer to as a "relapsed Catholic" (which he also thinks is very funny). But his sister says we're "Catholic by association" and that "totally counts." I've read a lot of theology and I don't think that's quite right, but it does seem in line with medieval Irish Catholicism, so I'll go with it, lol.
Mission-Coyote4457@reddit
The Irish potato famine was not a genocide, there are no serious historians who contend that it was.
tibearius1123@reddit
Basically the same to us.
Mission-Coyote4457@reddit
I don't think you speak for "us" on this particular question
DoinIt989@reddit
Brother people in your state think "Catholic" is not the same as "Christian" i.e. "Protestant".
tibearius1123@reddit
lol my wife is extremely confused by “what Christians believe” despite being a life long catholic. It kills me.
Deolater@reddit
I'm in the South and I'm a Presbyterian, so instinctively want to say Scotland has had more influence, but I don't really know.
Irish influence is more recent, and they were a more "othered" minority, which makes it more visible.
Mission-Coyote4457@reddit
This is the part I think most people don't seem to understand
Nodeal_reddit@reddit
Basically the entire white population of the southeast is Scots-Irish.
Mission-Coyote4457@reddit
The South is more English than it is Scots-Irish, it's just also more Scots-Irish than any other part of the country
squarerootofapplepie@reddit
Irish, and I’ve always wondered why the Irish chose the US and the Scottish chose Canada. I also think that Catholic Scots ended up getting grouped together with the Irish and Protestant Scots got grouped together with the English.
Mission-Coyote4457@reddit
Scotland was a proud member of the British Empire in the 1800s, and for that reason they had an easier time moving to Canada. America largely appealed to Irish Catholics (many of whom did move to places within the British Empire, and to Britain itself at the time) precisely because it wasn't part of the British Empire.
Catholic Scots were a tiny minority in Scotland. Glasgow became very Catholic at the same time and for the same reason that Boston Massachusetts did (it was filled with immigrants from Ireland escaping crappy conditions there). Before that Scotland was firmly as Protestant as England or Scandinavia
Gatodeluna@reddit
A lot of the influence is Scots-Irish, with that original mindset. Scots and Irish ancestry mixed. Culturally and linguistically there have always been similarities as much as differences. These earliest forbears would have been independent-thinking individualists and mostly Protestant. Later on immigrants directly from Scotland, and Ireland during & after the famine, and those were usually Church of Scotland (pretty puritanical) and Catholic.
Mission-Coyote4457@reddit
that's not what Scots-Irish means. Scots-Irish means descended from the Protestants in Northern Ireland (who are themselves of mostly Scottish ancestry). The term "Scots-Irish" is only used here in America, and it really gained traction as a way of distinguishing that population from Irish Catholics
Gatodeluna@reddit
I know all that, thanks.
ThatMuslimCowBoy@reddit
I’d say more scots Irish so Ulster Scots in the south and more Irish in the north east
Mission-Coyote4457@reddit
Abraham Lincoln is was not of Melungeon, nor are the Scots-Irish the largest euro ethnic group (both of those pieces of misinformation make their way around the internet from time to time, but that's not actually accurate)
InorganicTyranny@reddit
There are far more people who claim an Irish heritage than there are people who claim a Scottish one, but look past the pageantry and I think you’ll find that Scottish Americans were ultimately more culturally and institutionally influential.
As for why, most Scottish Americans were Protestant folk of British extraction, AKA easily fit into the upper crust of early American society in a way that many Catholic Irish couldn’t. This means that many prominent Americans in our nation’s formative years, from Alexander Hamilton to Andrew Carnegie to James Monroe, were of Scottish extraction, though the fact that they fit in so easily meant that after a few generations they may not have felt the need to flaunt their heritage. Irish Americans have, of course, also become very important, but it took time for barriers to their advancement to come fully down. My grandparents refused to vote for Kennedy, for example, because they feared he was “the Pope’s creature”.
Mission-Coyote4457@reddit
I agree 100%, the Scots influence is more baked in and part of the origin of everything here.
Mission-Coyote4457@reddit
The Scots were part of the 13 colonies population and so much original American influence was Scots, second only really to the English who they largely blended with in America (particularly east of Appalachia) so it's hard to say. Pre Civil War America would have definitely answered Scottish definitively, particularly if we're counting the Scots-Irish (Ulster Presbyterians) as Scots (which we probably should for this, as they'd only been in Ireland for about one generation before coming here). Mecklenburg County, North Carolina (Charlotte) and Tallahassee Florida both have the Scottish flag as their local city/county flags. The Cape Feat region of North Carolina was settled by Highland Scots shortly before the revolution (they were overwhelmingly loyalists during the revolution). Darien, Georgia has some direct Scottish history too during the colonial era (they've got a cool little rebuilt highland hut in the swamp there where there was once a British military base). Right outside of Savannah is Effingham County, Georgia which was largely first-generation immigrants from Scotland at the time of the Revolution (also a heavily loyalist area). And so on. As I mentioned in response to a comment somwhere one here, the South is more English than it is Scottish, but it's also more Scottish than any other region of the country, and has been since day one
Relevant-Ad4156@reddit
I would say Irish. But to be honest, it seems like most of us that aren't directly tied to either tend to get them muddled together in our minds.
Mission-Coyote4457@reddit
in the North, particularly big cities (like Cleveland and Detroit and Chicago) the answer would be Irish, specifically Irish Catholic. In the South the answer would be Scottish. The South is more English than it is Scottish but it's still more Scottish than any other region of the country
BurritoMaster3000@reddit
Mostly it's just Irish bars where people go to get shitfaced.
Routine_Phone_2550@reddit
Probably more Irish than Scottish, but truthfully there’s a lot of Latin and Asian influence.
psychocentric@reddit
I'll echo what the rest have said in that it depends on which region you are comparing. Ultimately, there are some cultural ideals from both that ended up getting smashed into what I would consider the basis of American culture now. I'm descended from Ulster Scots, and other than things we've picked up over the years looking at ancestry, there isn't much of the culture we've kept (other than general stubbornness and distrust of the government). ;-)
CupBeEmpty@reddit
I’d say just on numbers alone Irish, bet we really are a melting pot so everything gets muddled together after a couple generations.
BjornAltenburg@reddit
Appalachia and much of the south are very heavily infulced by Scottish cultures. However, it's so mixed that many wouldn't even know like you said.
RandomGrasspass@reddit
There is absolutely nothing Scottish about the south dude
Delicious_Virus_2520@reddit
There is in Appalachia.
RandomGrasspass@reddit
It’s so far removed from Scotland and the people of Scotland that it isn’t a real connection
Delicious_Virus_2520@reddit
Where have you visited in Appalachia?
RandomGrasspass@reddit
I know that they weren’t born in Scotland. It’s like saying Massachusetts is full of Irish people… when in fact it just has a lot of people who have Irish ancestry.
You could argue, but I wouldn’t, that they (the massholes) have an argument of being very “irish” just on pure numbers and continued immigration.
While Appalachia as a region last saw a large migration of Ulster Scots immigrants in the mid 18th century.
Either way, it’s an American self described variant of a group of people there is a loose connection to.
RandomGrasspass@reddit
I know that they weren’t born in Scotland. It’s like saying Massachusetts is full of Irish people… when in fact it just has a lot of people who have Irish ancestry.
You could argue, but I wouldn’t, that they (the massholes) have an argument of being very “irish” just on pure numbers and continued immigration.
While Appalachia as a region last saw a large migration of Ulster Scots immigrants in the mid 18th century.
Either way, it’s an American self described variant of a group of people there is a loose connection to.
CupBeEmpty@reddit
Oh yeah there are certainly pockets of influence but just by sheer numbers I have to go with the Irish. That said it isn’t like I can pick out an Irish or Scottish person on the street unless they are literally an immediate immigrant or maybe second generation.
therealdrewder@reddit
Scottish were here in number generations earlier. The Irish didn't really start coming till the famine.
CupBeEmpty@reddit
Oh yeah there is that too. Immigration has always come in waves. So Irish and Italian heritage is newer. Nowadays Latino immigration is a much bigger deal both in number and recency.
Then you have locality. Some places have huge Latino populations while others just don’t. Even the Irish had their strongholds. Mill towns and big cities in the northeast. Some Asian populations are pretty localized. One strange one is a pretty small city near me over the border in NH has 24% of its population as Indonesian. That is in one of the whitest states.
misterlakatos@reddit
Irish ultimately. Their influence is felt to this day.
I would argue English, German and Irish influences all outweigh Scottish influence at this point.
QuarterMaestro@reddit
Regionally, here in the South, Scots including Ulster Scots heavily influenced the traditional culture. The influence of Irish (Catholics) is basically zero since they just didn't immigrate here.
sean8877@reddit
Depends where you are, in the northeast (New York and Boston) Irish influence is pretty huge. I didn't see much Scottish influence when growing up there.
ageekyninja@reddit
You would probably have to tell us. I am so sorry to say I have no idea what the difference is between those 2 cultures, and I say that as someone who is more into foreign cultures than your average person here. I can hear my grandpa scolding me now. My family migrated here as Scottish people in the 1800s. I heard that all my life. He was so proud of our family history. All of that culture is sadly lost on me. I know very little what cultural aspects of my family came from them.
LilRick_125@reddit
Irish-Americans outnumber those of Scottish decent 5 to 1 in sheer numbers. But it's safe to say that Scots have comparitably had an outsized influence from literature to industry.
ColossusOfChoads@reddit
American music wouldn't be recognizably what it is without Scottish influence. That's just as important as the Black side of it.
There'd also be no fried chicken without them. The herbs and spices (Carribean, etc.) are what make our version distinct from theirs, of course.
cigarjack@reddit
Here it is neither. This area was more heavily settled by German/Dutch/Scandinavian immigrants.
KoRaZee@reddit
According to my neighborhood, Scottish since all the roads are Scottish themed and it’s called the highlands.
Artistic_Alps_4794@reddit
I wouldn't say there's much direct influence from either, but Scots played a bigger role in founding America and settling the frontier.
cdb03b@reddit
Appalachia is heavily influenced by Scottish immigrants, but the Irish Immigrants far more regions in their diaspora during the potato famine.
Texas specifically had a fair bit of Scottish Immigrants as well, either by way of Appalachia or directly, but we are more influenced by our Spanish, Mexican, and German Immigrants.
corro3@reddit
i'd say the first group of settlers had more influence on america overall the second group probably had more influence in large cities , you might look at the book albion's seed if you haven't already
cmhoughton@reddit
I think the Irish influence is more noticeable because it’s more recent, coming from the Irish diaspora following the potato famines in the 19th Century.
In the Southeast - Virginia, West Virginia, both Carolinas & Georgia - there are a ton of Scottish place names due to the Scots settling here in the early- to mid-1700s. Here in Virginia, for example, some of our place names are Scottish, like Midlothian, Dumfries, Dumbarton, Reston, and Jamestown (named for King James I/VI)…. Our last Royal Governor was Scottish, John Murray, the 4th Earl of Dunmore, he fled after the burning of Norfolk in 1776…
Iwentforalongwalk@reddit
Like half of Ireland came here to escape the famine so I have to say the Irish. We did have a lot of Scouts come too especially after Culloden and the clearances but not nearly as many.
Nottacod@reddit
It depends on region.
designgrl@reddit
Appalachian here.. heavily Scottish with a side of Irish
IHaveALittleNeck@reddit
My Scottish ancestor came here in 1716 but my Irish ancestors came here during the famine. At this point, the Scottish is considerably watered down, as opposed to the Irish which is more recent.
Wonderful-Teach8210@reddit
Irish is more obvious, but their influence was mostly superficial and minimal outside a few large cities. Scottish influence runs broader and deeper. They were some of our first immigrants, the first to push west, and much of their worldview became simply the American worldview. They are the ones who put the Protestant work ethic into practice. They are the ones who disseminated a form of honor culture where family, hospitality/charity and personal independence are of paramount importance in life. Americans are fundamentalists by nature, hot-heads who admire a good con and are happy to duke it out. That's Scottish influence.
SpaceDave83@reddit
Culturally, the Irish were more significant just by their larger numbers emigrating to the US. But the Scottish have influence far beyond their numbers, primarily due to their contributions in engineering, without which we would not have been able to industrialize as fast as we did.
JayFenty@reddit
Scottish have more ‘quiet’ influence or influence seeped heavily into American history we deem it as just that. Many Presidents have Scottish ancestry
Zardozin@reddit
Scotland
Some estimates put over forty percent of revolutionary forces as being Scots Irish.
jephph_@reddit
I’d guess Scottish since they came over earlier and were prominent when the country was founded
So, like English, they’re more of the default American and we don’t see it as “oh, that’s Scottish”.. it’s just American
The Irish wave came later and stronger and stands out more as something other
——
^(I didn’t really ponder this.. for sake of convo though)
missannthrope1@reddit
There was about half a million Scots that immigrated, and 4.6 million Irish.
azuth89@reddit
Scottish was washed out into regional identities of a couple regions and a lot of it isn't recognized as a separate thing anymore.
Irish maintained some pretty strong cultural enclaves, enough that some places are known as "Irish neighborhoods" and such to this day. It's much more visible as a result, with Irish American becoming it's own thing in those enclaves much like Italian American did, but arguably being stuck in those enclaves left them with less overall influence on the region than the Scots.
Maxpowr9@reddit
We made St. Patrick's Day a thing and then exported it back to Ireland.
SirTheRealist@reddit
Not much significant influence from either these days.
Mountain_Air1544@reddit
To be honest the cultures kind of blended in a lot of areas but I would say Irish
zugabdu@reddit
The amount of Irish ancestry is much larger, but at this point, it would be impossible to tell, let alone compare which of those two places had more influence on the United States.
haveanairforceday@reddit
Scottish people were prominent very early in the colonization of what became the US. Many of their contributions to our culture are so ingrained that we don't think of them as Scottish anymore. Fried Chicken was Scottish. The names and backgrounds of famous Americans like Grant, Carnegie, Bell, and many more are Scottish. "The Invisible Hand" which is the basis of many early US Economic theories was created by Adam Smith in Scotland
TopperMadeline@reddit
I’d say Irish. My city has a large Roman Catholic contingency, and there’s a pretty big St Patrick’s Day parade every year.
leeharvyteabagger@reddit
They're both loved equally
Marrymechrispratt@reddit
Would say Irish. Nova Scotia, Canada for real Scottish ancestry/culture.
anneofgraygardens@reddit
I immediately thought Irish upon reading this, but I am of Irish descent, so I'm sure I'm biased. :)
Relevant_Elevator190@reddit
Well, it was the Scottish that invented bourbon. Elijah Craig.
Technical_Plum2239@reddit
Scottish people also heavily settled in New England -- just not the same region/cultural folks that did in Appalachia. My ancestors were Scottish and came over with waves of Scots to Canada and then moved down to New England and were merchants, inventors, craftsmen. [They were NOT Scot-Irish]
My Irish folks were uneducated and came as servants.
I have researched history for 40 years and been a pro-genealogist for a long time. It'd take a really deep dive to figure this out and it would also be important to figure out what you mean by " influence". Voting, technology, culture? Look at the Irish and Boston bussing. Or Scots-Irish timing and type of immigrant and distrust of government/influence in the South.
It's a really complex question.
hermitthefraught@reddit
Pretty sure I wouldn't notice the difference.
Crayshack@reddit
I'd say more Irish influence. There's certainly some Scottish influence, especially in certain areas (like Appalachia), but on the whole, I think Irish has had more of an overall influence on our culutre.