Can Capitalism Save The World? A Metacrisis Perspective
Posted by Philostotle@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 33 comments
Posted by Philostotle@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 33 comments
AwarenessPresent2995@reddit
Short question: does capitalism work without endless growth? No? Than it can't stop what it caused. All it can do is be a bit less destructive but it will never be sustainable this way.
Philostotle@reddit (OP)
I'm not sure if capitalism doesn't work with growth. It would look radically different from capitalism today, but it's not incoceivable you could still have a system that promotes compeition that is ultimately capped and redistributive.
AwarenessPresent2995@reddit
as soon as you insert interest rates you will need growth. It is the fundamental thing that our financial system has been built upon.
Philostotle@reddit (OP)
But are interest rates a necessary component of capitalism? Seems to be begging the question. You can still "invest" in companies and obtain a proportional income stream in perpetuity without having say in how the business is run and demanding growth -- i.e., there need not be a fidcuiary responsibility to maximize profits and continually grow.
AwarenessPresent2995@reddit
if you ask a marxist he will say "no it doesnt"
if you ask every economist they will answer with kaynes and say "no it wont work without it".
in short: a monetary system without interest rates can exist but it's question of ones definitions if one could/would still call it capitalism.
Turbohair@reddit
Anytime a capitalist puts the word "new" in front of something...
It's old.
Philostotle@reddit (OP)
But has capitalism, for example, ever been tried where it actually accounts for externalities?
Turbohair@reddit
Or maybe just acknowledge that setting up an economy is supposed to be about production and distribution and managing variations in consumer demand.
Running all that through a profit motive hasn't actually worked... especially if you start considering externalities.
So... why even have capitalism at all?
Wellll... so a small group of people can decide right and wrong, policy and distribution for everyone else.
Just like every other economy in action we've seen, be it a slave economy, or communism.
The problem is not the isms. The problem is that a small cadre of people decide right and wrong, policy and distribution in their own interests.
Instead of allowing everyone to do that themselves.
Philostotle@reddit (OP)
Well you need some sort of system to organize things. Unless you're advocating for some sort of economic anarchism?
Turbohair@reddit
Anarchy is typcially systematic. Capitalist don't like it so anarchy gets the smear treatment.
Most people have no idea what anarchy is. Of course this is not simplified by the fact that anarchists disagree about what anarchy is... but this is true of capitalists and pretty much any group of people that have stuff to argue about.
Advocating for a system to organize things is not a problem. Advocating for widespread systemic expropriation as exists now is a problem.
Philostotle@reddit (OP)
I don't think what you're advocating for is realistic. "Widespread expropriation" would occur organically in an anrachistic society has it is human nature to seek power (it only takes a few individuals like this to change the game theory dynamics). Groups would naturally form that would take from others, and all of a sudden, you have an arms race again. Governments are necessary evils. We need to figure out how to make better government (and systems in general). I fail to see how anarachy is even remotely a plausible solution. But perhaps I misunderstand your view of it (in which case, I would love a clarification or references).
Turbohair@reddit
Tell it to the Iroquois Confederacy...
HomoExtinctisus@reddit
I can't because they lost.
Turbohair@reddit
LOL
Yes we all know.
Would you care to circle around and find the point?
Philostotle@reddit (OP)
re: walled garden problem
Turbohair@reddit
At some point it is important to acknowledge the impact of assuming moral authority.
nihilistpartyclown@reddit
💯💯💯
RandomBoomer@reddit
For over 300,000 years, the only organization humans needed was enough to hold together their own family group, plus maintain relationships with neighboring groups. Our problems started when agriculture enabled humans to support larger groups. Everything from that point on led us inevitably to ecological overshoot. Capitalism can't fix the root problem of too many people degrading our environment with industrial technology.
atascon@reddit
If we had ‘capitalism’ that actually accounted for externalities, most companies/markets/services would collapse. Or would never take off in the first place.
Underpricing/excluding costs such as externalities is not just a bug of capitalism, it is a key enabler of it.
Philostotle@reddit (OP)
This is a fair argument against the existing state of capitalism. But if you were to say, start from scratch, and properly accounted for externalities from the beginning, do you think it could work?
I understand it's a hypothetical btw. Just curious about the possibilities.
SweetAlyssumm@reddit
Capitalism is based on exploitation of people and resources. How do you think they get the surplus value?? The goal is growth. You absolutely need surplus value to grow. If that does not make sense, look it up - there are lots of good explanations online.
We could start over with more of a steady state economy that does not have to keep growing but I don't see any national governments or international organizations that want to do that. Capitalism has brainwashed/bought everyone except a few hardy souls, some of whom come to this sub.
Why do you think healthcare is so broken in the US? We have the best technology, the best doctors, the best research, but it's all mismanaged as a growth industry instead of a service everyone is entitled to. You have to skim off the top to keep profits to keep growing. Take away the profits and then the system can find an equilibrium.
BTRCguy@reddit
This is the sort of language and thought processes I would expect to find at r/conpsiracy rather than r/collapse.
sandstorm654@reddit
How would you incentivise a capitalist institution to consider it's externalities if it's always going to be more profitable to ignore/abuse them? Notice how no capitalist institutions have actually done much about their carbon emissions besides buy credits to carbon sequestration schemes that don't work so they can advertise that fact? It's always going to be better for the shareholders bottom line to force someone else to take care of the externalities.
Maybe you'd prefer something like market socialism?
tcbymca@reddit
Could the cure for cancer actually be cancer?
Philostotle@reddit (OP)
This question is raised and discussed in the video. I think capitalism is ultimately not the economic system we need but a reformed capitalism may be a necessary transitional element...
IIIIlIIIlIIlIl@reddit
I don't wanna sound mean but...
"Can reformed cancer cure cancer?"
Philostotle@reddit (OP)
I don't think that's a fair comparison. And, it doesn't deal with any of the nuance.
The truth is, unless you force collapse the system is not going to change to a circular economy overnight. In the meantime, it may be better to shift things in the right direction as much as possible, despite the glaring issues with infinite growth as has been discussed ad infinitum.
IIIIlIIIlIIlIl@reddit
I just don't think you can make cancer nice. It's cancer man.
And like cancer, capitalism demands infinite growth. It's quite the adequate metaphor.
boomaDooma@reddit
If capitalism is the answer, then it must have been a very stupid question.
eco-overshoot@reddit
Could AIDS cure HIV?
StatementBot@reddit
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Philostotle:
SS: From YT -- Can capitalism evolve to help address the metacrisis? This video explores the transformative potential of regenerative economics within a capitalistic framework. Drawing on the work of thinkers like Daniel Schmachtenberger and Nate Hagens, regenerative designer Ernesto Van Peborgh helps us understand what needs to change to create a more sustainable and regenerative system. We discuss the principles and practical steps that could guide us toward an economy that restores balance, mitigates ecological damage, and aligns with the broader efforts to confront the metacrisis.
Related to collapse because capitalism is fueling much of it, and if you can leverage its competitive dyanmics in favor of planetary health, that could be a very good thing. Big IF tho.
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1g3rzfu/can_capitalism_save_the_world_a_metacrisis/lry30hy/
HomoExtinctisus@reddit
More capitalism and more technology and more people will save us. We just need more of this that and the other things.
As long as we are delusional about what our species is actually capable of, we'll keep spouting bullshit.
Philostotle@reddit (OP)
SS: From YT -- Can capitalism evolve to help address the metacrisis? This video explores the transformative potential of regenerative economics within a capitalistic framework. Drawing on the work of thinkers like Daniel Schmachtenberger and Nate Hagens, regenerative designer Ernesto Van Peborgh helps us understand what needs to change to create a more sustainable and regenerative system. We discuss the principles and practical steps that could guide us toward an economy that restores balance, mitigates ecological damage, and aligns with the broader efforts to confront the metacrisis.
Related to collapse because capitalism is fueling much of it, and if you can leverage its competitive dyanmics in favor of planetary health, that could be a very good thing. Big IF tho.