Ok expats. Help me make life altering decisions
Posted by Friendly_Lie_221@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 83 comments
Should I, a single low income mom of two move to Scandinavia with my family and taking whatever job I can till I can eventually start school again. Teaching, nursing etc.
Or
Stay in the USA making 44 000 a year with a rent controlled apartment. Secure for now with very little upward mobility. Very little to offer my kids in the future.
Please be kind. I’m a tired mama.
Outrageous-Garlic-27@reddit
Do you have the permission of the father or a court to move abroad? The children are resident in the US, and you likely need permission to move them. It would also change child support arrangements etc.
I would check this first.
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
I have full legal custody. He’s not very involved but a decent person and trusts me to make good choices for the kids. He lives several states away. The arrangement wouldn’t change much. He supports this move
zyine@reddit
Just know that if he stops paying child support, you won't be able to do much about it.
micheal_pices@reddit
Actually you will, depends on the state he is in. The Swedish government is very involved in collecting from deadbeat dads. There is an agreement between the two government's.
carnivorousdrew@reddit
what "community" do you think Scandinavian countries provide? Didn't the Swedes just decide not to give a fuck about their eldery population during COVID and almost looked like grabbing the chance of a discount on future healthcare costs? I would not expect much "community" from a place like that.
Wilse1@reddit
I would recommend thinking about your values. What’s important to you? Who’s important to you? What do you value in the environment you live in? Is community important to you? That might help guide your decision.
Remember you can’t guarantee what will happen in the future, but if you can make a decision based on your values at least you can stand by why you made the decision.
SaltAltruistic6465@reddit
Most likely, there is a 183 day rule for taxes. You will be tax liable in whichever country you spend more than 183 days, and they will count income from both. Plus, you will have to find an accountant who specializes in international taxes (not cheap). I would leave early in the year if you want that be in Scandinavia. Since you are not a native born US citizen you won't have to file with the IRS beyond tax year 2024. I am not a tax professional. So this is just casual advice from someone who overstayed in a European country due to family commitments.
I would go because the day to day quality of living is better and healthier. It will be very hard on your teen. You have to work hard to get him/her into a hobby/activity. Also, I have never met a Scandinavian who couldn't speak English. Most likely, the other kids will love to practice their English with your kid.
Stop thinking about it and do it! I would. I am staying because my husband is miserable in cold weather (we live in a warm weather state). I prefer warm myself, but can always make the best of everything. The long dark days of winter in Scandinavia are also something to consider if there are tendencies towards seasonal depression.
I have a friend who lived in Alaska for a while and she says it just bonded the family more, because they were home at dark and spent time with each other. It's always what you make of it.
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
SUPER helpful information. Thank you so much
nakedtalisman@reddit
If you can go - especially if you have family there that’s willing to help - I’d absolutely go. You can offer your children a lot more there. It’s a much better place to raise a family 100%
How old are your kids? If they’re younger they’d probably also pick up the language pretty quickly too, if they don’t already know it. Good luck! I know it’s scary, but I think there’s more growth opportunities for you there and your future self would be happier. You sound more “stuck” here.
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
I am completely stuck with a comfortable job and a tiny apartment and absolutely no help or support or movement whatsoever. My kids are 6 and 15. Im VERY worried about my teenager adjusting
Joman_Spatula@reddit
Just wanna say that it will probably be difficult for your teenager if they have a good friend group or don’t do well with change. But on the flip side it would probably be a good period of learning for them. I moved during my childhood (a bit different than moving as a teenager) and it was tough. But ultimately I’m glad that it happened because it made me want to move to other places in the future and it built up my social skills in different ways
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
Thanks for sharing your personal experience! I’d love to hear more
Joman_Spatula@reddit
Forsure 👍🏽 I can pm you
Forward_Pear_@reddit
If you go, 15 yr old will have the choice in three years whether they want to stay there or come back to the US for university. You'll be giving them more options and the opportunity to chose for themself which life they prefer. Worst case scenario, they hate it there and endure it for \~2 years. Granted, that can feel like an eternity as a teenager. But I they might appreciate later that your decision gave them more choices as an adult. If they learn the language, that can also be helpful in the job market later.
Have you floated the idea with them at all to gauge their response? I'd ease into the idea with something light and neutral like, "I've been thinking a lot lately about what our lives would look like if we lived in ___." And just see how they respond to it as an abstract concept.
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
I have, he hates it. I offered for him to go for a year and if it affects his mental health find a way to come back or trust he’s old enough to stay with his dad and get all his school stuff done. But reality is that he’d be essentially raising himself if I allowed that. He can’t see the benefits, I would be dragging him kicking and screaming. And he’s such a good teenager, it feels completely awful. But I’ll be forced to make that tough decision for him nonetheless because leaving him behind as the primary parent is literally impossible.
MzPest13@reddit
But also, what a grand adventure for the children. Most of us will never get to see outside of our own small area. If your parents are supportive of you and will be able to help you 👀
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
That’s a great perspective
5T6Rf6ut@reddit
Is 15 bi/multilingual? Have you asked their opinion? Would you be able to wait 3 years for them to finish high school before going or could they stay with their father or a close friend if they preferred to stay behind if you go?
hungry-axolotl@reddit
I'm young, don't have kids, and I'm not bound by family so my situation is much different, so please take this with a grain of salt. Reading your other comments, since you already have citizenship and speak the language, just off of social benefits alone your children will have access to subsided education and universal health care, and you can probably get some other benefits to help you raise your kids. I think your kids would have a brighter future in Scandinavia, but at the cost of your eldest losing their connections in the US and the potential of struggling to adapt. But, your kids are still young so they can still learn languages quickly, make new friends, and your eldest is in the middle of high school, so they still have time to make friends in their new high school or in uni. Tbh you probably feel that ur situation is also risky in the US like what if you lose your job or apartment? Can you pay 60 K a year for your kids to goto uni? What happens if you have a medical emergency and can't work or pay your medical bills? You have no support in the US in case something bad happens, so if you can get a job when you move to Scandinavia your situation would either be the same or maybe better since the governments or any family you have over there might be able to help you (and way better for your kids' future).
I say try to talk to your eldest and explain the benefits of this move, and if they're willing, then go for it. And please make sure the courts allow the move because even if you have full custody, you might be seeing some court battles in the future. My parents divorced when I was young, and I also want to ask do your kids see their father regularly? If they don't have a relationship with their father, would they be okay being fully separated from their father? And I figure you won't like this option, but if your eldest likes their father and refuses to move, they could just move in with their father while you and your youngest move to Scandinavia. Either way, I would double check if you need permission from the court or your ex to move abroad with the kids.
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
Thank you for your response! Lots of excellent points. My ex is not in a position to raise a teenager, if it were an option I’d do it in a heartbeat. He’s not involved enough for it to make much of a difference. Also my heart knows that Scandinavia is what’s best for his future although he does not feel this at the moment. But
Forward_Pear_@reddit
Sometimes as a parent you have to make the unpopular choice that you know is best for their future, that they'll thank you for later in life. It's normal to be afraid of a life he doesn't have any basis to imagine. He won't have the opportunity to see what that could look like until he's there. He can always come back in a couple years for college if he still hasn't found his footing there.
hungry-axolotl@reddit
You're welcome and yeah I just wanted to bring up those questions since they're also important to think about. My parents had partial custody and moving in with my father full-time was always an option, so that's why I brought up the idea. But if that's the case, then moving to Scandinavia seems possible, just have to convince your eldest to make the move or make an executive decision. Teenagers are moody by nature at this age and can be difficult, I think as long as you consider their feelings they will be more agreeable in moving, but if they're being too much even if you make an executive decision, when they get older and realize how hard it is to move up in the US as an adult they might thank you for making the move. And double-check if you need permission from your ex to go abroad with the kids. Anyway, good luck with your decision and future travels
darthwhy@reddit
Do your kids also speak fluently? Especially the 15 yo will have a life and friends in the US, guessing it may not be great for him/her to relocate that far in a place that is really not that welcoming of foreigners with a different school system etc. I would at the very least test the idea with them first
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
No, he did when he was younger but “lost” it. My younger one is learning and excited to become fluent
HeyEllie1968@reddit
You are getting a lot of great advice here. I will add this. We are Canadian, and several years ago, a company my husband worked for suggested he put his name forward for a position in Perth Australia. It would have been for a minimum 3 year stint. We had 3 daughters. 1 had just graduated high school, 1 in high school, and the baby was 14 in junior high. The older 2 were keen. The youngest was devastated to leave her friends. First said she wouldn't come with us, then that she would only come 6 months then would return to live with my parents. The drama. Anyway, we didn't go. Mainly because we had parents with serious health issues but the baby's attitude didn't help. Fast forward, the baby is now 25 and says all the time how she can't believe we didn't just go and ignore her. She says it would have been such a great experience and she would have made new friends etc etc. Your 15 year old may feel like it is the end of the world, but if the move is the best for the family overall, then I suspect they will feel the same way too in time.
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
This was the exact experience of my friend who left her daughter behind with her ex and moved to Norway. She’s 28 now and too old for citizenship but doing everything she can to stay with her mother. Thank you so much for sharing
Equal_Barracuda2397@reddit
Just wanted to say that you’re an amazing mama for even thinking of this ❤️ Your kiddos are lucky to have you.
F_ckSC@reddit
This. My parents immigrated to the U.S. from Mexico in 1975 because it was what was best for their kids. A scary proposition for a working poor family that didn't speak English. I appreciate their efforts and sacrifice every day.
Where do you see yourself and your children thriving in the next 30 years? Obviously, the younger your kids are, the less challenging the transition will be for them (even if they already speak the language).
The fact that you're contemplating such a move for your family already means you're a caring parent.
I would make the move after careful research and planning. Remember, your kids can always come back to the U.S., so that door will always be open to them.
Immigrating was the American dream for us, and my kids have thrived here as well. But, I'm planning to retire in Spain or Portugal after a successful career in the U.S. That dream seems a whole lot more difficult to accomplish to the current generation of youth, and my now-adult kids dream of living in Europe after traveling around several times.
I wish you all the success that you deserve.
P. S. I would also encourage you to talk with your kids openly about your plans, dreams, and some of your concerns (without instilling fear). Presented in a positive light, they might look forward to this new adventure.
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
Thank you for sharing your personal experience. It helps a ton
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
Thank you. You have no idea how much I appreciate you taking the time to write this
Impossible_Fix7270@reddit
You have the passport. You speak the language.
PACK UP AND GET READY TO MOVE!!!
Girl, you got this! 💪🏻
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
Thank you 😊
MadeThisUpToComment@reddit
Decide you are moving to Scandanvia. Pretend for the next 48 hours you've made up you mind and start preparing for it.
Then check how you feel on Wednesday.
That's assuming I have understood correctly and you have an immediate path to legal residency in Scandinavia.
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
I’ve been thinking about it for years and panic. This can’t be an emotional decision it has to be logical and I can’t separate myself from the fear of going and somehow ending up worse?. My feelings aren’t doing anything good for me, I think I Stockholmed myself into inertia.
Modullah@reddit
You’re going to panic. Just accept that it will happen. How you handle it is the challenging part. If you want to play the variables game there is a million and one things that can go wrong. Rent controlled apartment suddenly not being rent controlled anymore (very unlikely but not 0% either) etc. etc.
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
Thank you! Accepting panic is helpful
Loose-Interaction-23@reddit
I know you have little time for yourself, but try writing things down, doing a comparison between the 2 possible futures. This will help you see clearer the possible outcomes.
From my point of view, Scandinavia has a lot to offer, and a healthier, calm and balanced life for all your family.
You're already a strong person with your daily struggle, don't think less of yourself! Your kids are lucky to have you.
LoveAnn01@reddit
If I were in your position I would take a long term view. Most children settle quicker than parents might think, especially if they have the advantage of already knowing the language.
Then there's the education system - will it be better there than in the US? I suspect it might well be. Will there be subsidised University?
There's the question of whether you will qualify for assistance in paying rent - I think Scandinavia offers better prospects there, especially if you get to retirement age.
Then, of course there's the question of paying for medical treatment for yourself and possibly for the children.
I'm only seeing pluses here, and very big ones at that! You should make a list of all the pluses and the minuses for going or staying and let that be your guide. But it seems to me that your children will have a better future and you will too, if you decide to go.
Good luck
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
Thank you!! You’re right. I’m just scared of starting over
Free-Air2517@reddit
If you feel emotionally and mentally stronger with the idea of moving to Scandinavia, it could be worth the risk for long-term benefits for both you and your children. The social systems there could give you more support than the current situation in the U.S., where you seem to feel stuck and isolated.
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
Definitely feel stuck and isolated but also scared to make a major move like this.
Free-Air2517@reddit
I completely understand you, especially as a mother, you just want the best for your children. The fact that you are trying to make the right decision shows that you are a thoughtful and caring mom! The advantage is that Scandinavian countries are very progressive and (from what I’ve heard) also family-friendly. If you have family or friends there, that’s an extra bonus, as you might have some support. You really can’t go wrong with Scandinavian countries in general. I also think you would find a job quickly, since you already speak the language. As a mother myself, when I ask myself where I would rather raise my children, I would choose Scandinavian countries over the USA. Your well-being is the most important thing. Children need a content mother. It breaks my heart to read that you feel isolated and trapped, so also think of yourself and which country will offer you more inner peace, safety, and comfort.
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
Thank you for kind words. I agree that my kids need a content parent
inrecovery4911@reddit
Much evidence from this sub says otherwise. I pay attention because I'm struggling in a country with a similar culture.
OP, you should definitely search this sub for the many posts where people have struggled. Thenn again, perhaps the culture will feel more familiar/comfortable to you than American culture with your heritage and this won't be a problem.
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
I’m overwhelmed with your support everyone! I appreciate all the input.
Ephendril@reddit
Go home. 🏠
fartaround4477@reddit
Scandinavia offers much better support for children and families. Also for aging people. Aging in the US is crap unless you're rich.
atropear@reddit
Not sure your pension situation. Look over the tax treaty between US and Sweden about pensions (if applicable). Also inheritance and child support enforcement.
Mundstrom@reddit
Depends on which Scandinavian language you speak and where you’ll move to. As a Fane I can only give advice on Denmark.
We have fantastic social support here, great employee rights, lots of paid vacation days, free schools and free healthcare, so you’ll save all that money. But of course our taxes are high. Immigration is easier if you’re an expat, but tough for most others.
l-isqof@reddit
It depends on the age of your kids.
If they're still young, I would think they are worth the punt, and it would be good to give them that childhood. QoL in Scandinavia should be higher for someone on low income with kids, then in the US.
Older kids deserve their opinion heard though. Uprooting friends can break them.
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
My oldest is 15 and doesn’t want to uproot. My youngest is 6 and she’s very excited. I didn’t mention it in the post but it’s one of the biggest reasons I feel stuck as well.
l-isqof@reddit
Unless the 15yo is in trouble locally, I think it would be hard on them. they can resent you for doing it, unless they agree to it. it has to be their choice on where they want to live.
On the other hand, 6 is at the top of the ideal window to move a kid, as they settle in formal education at this age. Also learning a new language is still easy.
Is staying behind with friends an option for the 15yo? Maybe they can join later, when you are more settled, and they would have visited a few more times?
I was speaking with someone recently who left their teenage kids to move to the Arctic Circle. Obv not an ideal place for teenagers, so they left them behind with dad, and it was working OK. 15yo can talk on videocalls, and it is that age when a bit more independence may do them good. As long as they are in a safe place, I'd consider it an option.
Real_Sir_3655@reddit
Does 15 year old have any really close friends? See if there's anyway he can stay with one for summers and/or offer to let his friends stay with you for long breaks. The opportunity for travel while also being able to include people he cares about might actually make it exciting for him.
Dunno about you but if I had a chance to go to Scandinavia to spend Christmas and New Years with my buddies I'd be super excited.
photogcapture@reddit
You may have to do some persuading where it comes to the 15yr old. Talk about the positives of the move. Make it about them and how their life would be better with family. Yes, they will miss friends, but they can make new ones. However, this would be a big switch for them. If your 15yr old is in 10th grade, then you have three years till graduation. What is the equivalent in Scandinavia? It may be tough to transfer. Not sure.
Duke_Newcombe@reddit
That's a tough one. If there were very close friends of his who'd be willing to take him in, I might consider it: otherwise, you may have to make an "executive decision" that you all are going, and that's that.
The teen may be making decisions and reacting out of fear: they may be picking that up from you as well. Have you sat down with them, and point-by-point explained your thinking about why you'd leave? Not all, but most teens can at least hear you out, and logic things out, even if they don't agree with or are reluctant about them.
Empower them by involving them in solving the puzzle of "how would it look" if you moved? The unknown is the major source of push-back and fear.
Ill_Ad2950@reddit
Im presuming you hold a passport to that country. If so then I would move on the fact that you will receive far better support. In general schools are free, for kids, dentists are free, 4 weeks off every year when you get a job. If you’re dual citizen then you’re going to have to remember that has repercussions on tax, filing and saving. But I would move as skandkinavia is far better for kids then the USA. Less guns, violence and so on.
S3v3nsun@reddit
You got this! Just write everything down and break it into steps so you know exactly what to prepare for. I agree that moving might be a good idea! I myself came to Japan to give it a shot, but since I don't speak the language, finding a job in my field has been like trying to teach a cat to bark—it's just not happening. So now, I'm packing my bags and giving Australia a try! Because if you can't find your dream job in one place, why not wrestle a kangaroo while you're at it, right?
Seriously though, moving to a place where you already speak the language is a huge advantage, and it could open so many doors for you and your kids. Whatever you choose, know that you've already taken the biggest step by just considering this move for a better future. You're a superhero mom, and I believe you've got what it takes to make this work! 💪
PB_livin_VP@reddit
Just based on how you worded the two choices it is obvious what you want to do. I say follow your heart snd go for it.
i-love-freesias@reddit
Is your rent controlled apartment or other benefits dependent on you not having any assets or savings over a certain amount?
If so, I would encourage you to figure out how to move.
It’s so messed up that in order to keep benefits, you aren’t allowed to improve your circumstances. Been there.
As long as you have at least 10 years full time equivalent of paying into social security, you can get your SSA retirement benefits anywhere. Be sure and do that. It’s an amazing benefit that you get for life.
The only other thing I will add is to be aware of any potential problems with your ex trying to stop you from taking the kids out of the country. I think even if they agree, you still have to jump through some hoops to take kids abroad.
Best of luck to you.
shopgirl56@reddit
if you can legally stay there go - this country offers nothing for your kids - i wouldnt think twice
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
Starting over from scratch with kids doesn’t scare you?
Duke_Newcombe@reddit
Starting from scratch anywhere is a challenge. If you didn't speak the local language, and if your kids were older, it'd be scarier. But you're entering "the game" on "easy to moderate" mode, instead of hard mode, as someone who doesn't know the culture, language, nor has ties.
You've got this, and you're stronger and more capable of this than you think.
shopgirl56@reddit
i didnt say that! its a scary proposition - but the safety net of a scandanavian country vs usa? id get out. i am getting out - just for context - im expatting to Portugal
my kids are adults and are working on getting out. there is nothing here for reg kids. 60k in college debt and they might be a manager of a Verizon Store.
3 things europe has that usa doesnt - public tran- reasonable college & accessible heslthcare. those things along with affordable housing arent poss in the states.
and imagine giving your kids the gift of no gun drills at school.
go for it - betcha wont regret it
skeeter04@reddit
You probably don’t have the money but what you really need to do is make an exploratory trip over there to see how easy it might be for you to integrate
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
I don’t have the money and I couldn’t take time off work so I would have to dive in and make it work
Duke_Newcombe@reddit
Although it is a roll of the dice, research, research, research the move to death before committing. Talk to people. See if you can talk to other expats in Scandinavia, or in a similar situation, so you can get "on the ground" reports.
To some degree, you'll have to drop some coin for the process, talking with an immigration professional, a tax professional (Uncle Sam will extend his long arm for your paycheck wherever you go) to see how things will play out for year one and two.
Otherwise, challenging, but not as scary as you might think.
AdThen5499@reddit
Go with your heart on this one. The fact you mentioned the idea first… to me, that suggests that you really want to go to Scandinavia.
SaintPabloJunior@reddit
if there is a chance to not raise your kids as americans I would definitely take it
kattehemel@reddit
Go.
gadgetvirtuoso@reddit
This seems like a no brainer to me. In the US in most states you have no social safety net and limited options. Just working is probably hard with childcare costs in the US. Your kids would also benefit from the experience. It would be hard for them at first but they would adjust.
alexdaland@reddit
As a Scandinavian (Norwegian) with dual passports - Norway and Canada - absolutely 100% Id go for Scandinavia. The free healthcare alone. Yes you will pay higher taxes, but you get it back in all kinds of free benefits, health obviously being one - your kids have free dental until 21 if i remember correctly, and all other things are basically covered without any questions.
Any questions about Norway, dm me and Ill explain whatever.
Tento66@reddit
Watch the 60 minutes segment on how they treat kids sports in Scandinavia, you won't need much convincing beyond that.
PicoRascar@reddit
Personal growth is super important for you and your family. Personally, I'd shake things up and go assuming you've done your research and feel you've got a good shot at making it work.
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
Shaking things up sounds great actually. Thank you for your input
Heel_Worker982@reddit
Check what social supports are available, but moving seems best.
unclesmokedog@reddit
It sounds like moving back to Scandinavia has a huge upside, while you see despair here in the states.
bruhbelacc@reddit
Income inequality is lower, so for you, this will likely lead to a higher standard of living. Living in different countries, however, makes retirement complicated. I worked full-time for 4 years in my own native country (EU) and now live in another EU countries. Still, the pensions don't transfer. When I retire, I'm seeing exactly 0 in state pension for those 4 years (compulsory social security/taxes) because you need to work for a minimum 10 years or something like that. So, if you're on the fence and decide to come back in 5 years, you might be disadvantaged (maybe the foreign degrees won't be recognized, too). In the end, it's a choice about the lifestyle you prefer.
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
Thank you for sharing. I wouldn’t have anything to come back to. I’m in a position that took me years to accomplish and once I give it up it’ll be gone forever. I could never afford the U.S.. leaving means leaving for good. I have another 30 plus years of working before retirement anyway
freebiscuit2002@reddit
Are you eligible to live and work in a Scandinavian country? Meaning, are you a citizen or can you get a visa?
If you are not a citizen of the country (or an EU citizen), you cannot arrive in Scandinavia and just stay. You will need to get a visa first.
Friendly_Lie_221@reddit (OP)
I have a citizenship and have worked there in the past. Yes I can live there as well and so can my kids.
freebiscuit2002@reddit
Great. So the next thing I would think about is cost of living. Scandinavia is notoriously expensive to visit (my sister lived in Denmark and Sweden), so I would look carefully at how you would finance a move and getting started there with a job.
Then: Do you have any kind of network there, to help you? When I moved countries, I relied heavily on trusted people who were already in the place I was moving to. Hugely helpful in working out the practicalities and not making expensive mistakes!
LiterallyTestudo@reddit
I think you already know the answer. :)
Hutcho12@reddit
If you're a citizen of the country you want to go to, then I would first look at what benefits you can get to get you started. They're probably quite good all considered. I wouldn't say the move is as hard as for a lot of people as you don't have visa issues, nor will you likely even need a job to begin with, and it's probably a better place for your kids.