Relocating to Netherlands, mid 30s couple
Posted by Mental_Win2827@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 42 comments
We're an introverted couple in our mid-30s thinking about relocating to Amsterdam from another Western European country.
Most online portrayals seem to focus on the experiences of people in their 20s, so we're curious about perspectives from those closer to our age. - What made you move to Amsterdam? - What has been your experience so far? - Does Amsterdam feel like home? Can you see yourself living there long-term? - What's one thing you wish you'd known before moving? - How has it been like for having and raising kids there?
carnivorousdrew@reddit
I moved for the higher salaries and realized after 7 years they are not worth the broken healthcare system, the ridiculously high taxes and cost of living, the racism that many have to face (although I was way luckier than some of my Asian or black friends) and the ridiculous pseudoscientific beliefs that seem to have been instilled by the health insurance companies since they basically fucked up their whole healthcare system. Then there is the even bigger problem of the housing crisis, unless you are going to make 200k as a couple, you will either end up in a shoebox apartment/house or will have to buy something old with asbestos and lead pipes. Nevermind the fact that to even find a place it can easily take you between 6 months and 1 year, in which you will easily burn 10k jumping from airbnb to airbnb.
10/10 not worth it and would not recommend. Unless you have some fixation for bike lanes.
Fit-Tooth-6597@reddit
Ah yes, because of all the grown adults who don't know how to cover their mouth/nose when sneezing and coughing in public? Amazes me to see this on a near daily basis. It's disgusting.
Not to mention the reported rate of hand washing (50%): https://www.statista.com/chart/4111/do-europeans-wash-their-hands-after-using-the-toilet/
carnivorousdrew@reddit
Literally knew a Dutch person who would not wash their hands even after taking a shit in a public toilet.
CompanionCone@reddit
I agree with almost everything you said but this part:
Is just not true and will potentially really misinform people who read this. While home births are normal in the Netherlands, the majority of births still happen at hospitals. And there are no tests at 6yo that determine a child's entire future, the education system is pretty flexible overall.
skoomafueled@reddit
He's talking about the CITO-toets, I'm out of the Netherlands, but born and raised there, I was locked in the lowest tier schooling because at the time I took the test, I had an extremely dysfunctional household, and was out of the house, unsupervised practically 24/7. Not a single teacher noticed this, had my CITO flunked, and had to work my way out of that fucking hell-hole for more than 10 years to get proper education. The CITO is bullshit, and agree with OP 100%. Maybe he got the aging a little wrong, but the point still stands.
Low_Cat7155@reddit
But it’s still misinformation. Cito is taken at 12 years old and it’s not the only thing to determine what school you will go to. The teachers advice is also taken in account.
Also it’s very easy to move up the ladder in Dutch High schools. I got a VMBO advice but eventually got my VWO diploma without any delay.
carnivorousdrew@reddit
yeah, 12 is definitely the right age to screw up your whole schooling career. My misinformation is clearly the problem. Lol how fucked up that is. The guy is even giving you a clear example of how bad the issue can be but you still climb those mirrors like the floor is lava.
skoomafueled@reddit
Which means your teacher has to like you and your family, which they didn't in my case. Not to mention the fact that 8 out of 10 teachers are power-tripping ego-maniacs, no way in heaven I'd want a biased opinion from a teacher close to my child, unless I know for sure their best interest is on stake.
You can't drop this in here without additional context. I for one had to go through VMBO -> MBO -> HBO -> WO, which was a huge delay. I had to bruteforce my way through, without the support of anyone. Never did I think that was easy...
ELderados@reddit
Have you tried taking paracetamol for your chronic disease?
Vovochik43@reddit
En water drinken.
carnivorousdrew@reddit
I really wanted to drink more water but the frequent contaminations of tap water with e coli made it difficult to keep a constant routine.
carnivorousdrew@reddit
Sure I did, and apparently it's enough to know to get you through Dutch med schools lol I can probably qualify as a fucking surgeon there since I even know where the liver and spleen are located.
misatillo@reddit
Can’t agree more with your comment. I also left for most of these reasons
physboy68@reddit
All I agree with.. except the high taxes. The taxes in NL are almost comparable to Germany and significantly lower than Belgium. The wealth tax in NL however, is awful. NL tax residents are forced to shift their savings into assets such as housing (of which there is a severe shortage).
For the rest of the reasons you gave, are exactly why I left too.
carnivorousdrew@reddit
Any kind of wealth tax is theft and immoral. Yet corporations are first class citizens in the Netherlands.
Rolifant@reddit
If you have kids, i'd say that Belgium is significantly cheaper. Well, 5 years ago it was anyway, we did the calculations back then.
WieIsDeDrol@reddit
I'm Dutch and I agree with a lot of what you're saying. Everything is so expensive and the wages aren't even high compared to Germany where I worked before.
Ihave some questions. What pseudoscientific beliefs have you encountered in healthcare? And I think that giving birth at home is a choice and part of culture but not mandatory.
Ok_Chipmunk_7724@reddit
I agree as well. Additionally, the Dutch are rather unwelcoming. I’ve had the impression that they seem to think they have enough „English speakers“ (even though I am able to understand Dutch just fine and I can also speak it, albeit with an accent. One tiny mistake and they switch to English, because „it’s easier“ and they „don’t want to be free Dutch teachers“). The expat community can be nice, though. Regarding the giving birth part, I think insurance only covers hospital costs if they are deemed medically necessary which is a bit scary for foreigners, especially with Dutch doctors being rather off-putting and usually only telling you to take paracetamol.
eliezther666@reddit
It it really that bad? I am moving in January from Mexico
Vovochik43@reddit
It's actually a bit worth than in this current section. We're only sharing the best aspects I found.
eliezther666@reddit
Si it is better?
Godforsaken-@reddit
It's first world country problems. I don't know your personal situation in Mexico, but be prepared for high cost of living and different climate
eliezther666@reddit
Climate worries me, the other they tell me not to worry…
Godforsaken-@reddit
Well, the climate is actually very mild. The issue is that you probably got used to a warm climate and sunny days of your home country
ObjectiveHomework424@reddit
The climate is mild. The rain and gray gray gray overcast skies 90% of the year are what is absolutely killing me :(
Godforsaken-@reddit
It is depressing indeed but it's not as bad as in Scotland all year long or in Iceland during winter for example. Everything is relative
kiefer-reddit@reddit
I haven't lived in NL, merely spent a bit of time there, but – I honestly don't get the appeal of Amsterdam vs. another city in the Netherlands. Rotterdam, Utrecht, etc. have so much less tourism. So much less. I couldn't stand spending time in Amsterdam because the mass of tourists everywhere in the center was too much to deal with. Whereas Utrecht felt like a real city.
Vovochik43@reddit
Lower taxes for 5 years and very close location to my upbringing, also more international than Paris or Brussel.
Satisfying for 5 years, but then tax rates become out of whack if you don't have your own business.
Maybe yes if I could become a reasonably successful entrepreneur to lower my tax rate. Country's attitude toward car ownership is also a mix bag.
Car tax (road/sale tax)+ parking/milieu zone are really unreasonable. Food culture is worth than what I thought was possible. People are very close minded, don't expect to make friends.
No kids so I don't know exactly, I've read they are extremely strict with home schooling. If you're both working and can't take care of kids at home while they're young, count around \~1500/month/kid to keep for daycare during week days from 9 A.M.-5 P.M. or 9:30 - 4:30 until they reach 4 y.o. to go to public school.
WalterMit@reddit
Are you sure that becoming an entrepreneur will help you lower your tax rate? From what I read there are more things you can potentially deduct as a business expense but tax rates are the same /similar
Vovochik43@reddit
Pay yourself the minimum director salary of €56k gross at standard income tax rate, corporate tax rate is 19% on your first €200k, 25.8% afterward. If you need personal cash do dividend taxed at 33% in box 2. As the money is already taxed you'd pay 33%-CTR on the receive dividend so for instance 13%.
Let's say you make €200k profit and you transfer all of it as dividend + salary
56k box1 + 144k box2, you'll pay exactly €62k in taxes and keep 138k net
Employment: 200k box1, you'll pay €90k in taxes and keep 110k net + you'll pay wealth tax on your saving. With dividend you can keep the money compounding tax free in your BV until you need it + CGT (25%)
WalterMit@reddit
CGT is capital gains tax? That's on the BV savings/investments?
Vovochik43@reddit
Yes, capital gains tax. In the Netherlands, individual pay a wealth tax, if your investment is held by a BV you don't have to pay Box 3 and will pay a CGT instead on it.
WalterMit@reddit
Thanks! BV certainly looks interesting from a tax perspective. ZZP is however looked almost same as employee.
Vovochik43@reddit
Yes ZZP is similar to a standard employment.
sedelpha@reddit
How did you come to this conclusion? I think they're more English friendly but more international was definitely not my conclusion
Buscuitknees@reddit
We moved here from the US via Singapore- mid 30’s, both working, raising 2 kids + 1 more on the way and moved here for my work. We technically live outside of Amsterdam in Haarlem because we find it a better place for raising kids. This is a long term stay for us but not more than 5 years.
My oldest is in primary school and really enjoying it. I will say I was surprised how much preschool/daycare costs as you get subsidies based on income and there’s a lot of drama in the government right now about how minimal subsidies are. We pay €2100 after subsidy for my son to be in preschool 5x/week for 6 hours a day, which is more than we paid in Singapore. Overall this is an excellent place to raise children.
Being pregnant in NL has been overall good. They really push home birth but you can decline it which I will be. Care is done by a midwife but they refer out to medical specialists if any red flags arise. There’s a stereotype that you can’t be seen by specialists here but I’ve been referred to 6 different ones through the course of this pregnancy for a spinal cord condition I have. I also find my GP nice and gasp was able to get my daughter antibiotics when she complained of ear pain for a few days in a row.
Working for a MNC, which you likely would if you can’t speak Dutch, means you will work more hours than you might expect in Europe.
Lastly, it’s much harder to make friends here, although I’ve been so busy with work and sick in pregnancy that I can’t make the effort required. In Singapore I had a large group of extremely close friends within 2 months. I find the Dutch are kind (not everyone’s experience) but most of your friends will end up being foreigners no matter how long you live here.
ObjectiveHomework424@reddit
Introverted couple, early 30s, moved here in July of 2021. Feel free to DM if you'd like to get together when you arrive! :)
What made you move to Amsterdam? -- We're from the US but I have an EU nationality, and we wanted something different from the work-life balance and deteriorating political situation in the US. Amsterdam post-Brexit was the easiest place for us to find English-speaking jobs. We'd never been here before we moved and agree with another commenter that the tourism is overwhelming-- huge piles of trash, entitled influencers, shoulder-to-shoulder crowds everywhere, really makes it feel like you live in a theme park, not a city.
What has been your experience so far? Oof. Some things (bureaucracy, moving, finding jobs) were very easy. The groceries are fresh and high-quality, the "system" works well, work-life balance is high (compared to the US), though people still work hard and really value their careers. We love our apartment and our neighborhood and love all the opportunities for fitness (gyms, ClassPass, etc.)
Other things... not so much. I preface by saying that this is our perspective and has been our experience, but we find Dutch people to be very insular and conformist, with one of their most common idioms being "the tallest blade of grass gets cut" (i.e., "doe normaal," don't stand out.) Our only Dutch friends have foreign partners, and after a lot of trying, we eventually gave up and focused on cultivating expat friendships. However, the huge downside there is that expats leave, OFTEN. In cycles, you'll look around and be like "...wow, I have no friends left." As introverts, this has been really tough for us to have to constantly put ourselves out there to make friends who surely will leave after 2-5 years. I caveat this by saying we don't speak Dutch well, and I absolutely understand preferring to cultivate friendships in your native language (we took a year of classes, but it's very true that if you live in Amsterdam no one will ever give you the chance to practice, even if you insist. I hear this is very different outside of Amsterdam.)
Does Amsterdam feel like home? Can you see yourself living there long-term? No. We're actively planning to move somewhere else. We're tremendously grateful for the experience, but we don't feel truly integrated, the weather is really tough on us, and we miss nature/hiking/the outdoors. It also feels much less safe here than when we arrived, and the political situation lately isn't great.
What's one thing you wish you'd known before moving?
How has it been like for having and raising kids there? We are childfree by choice so can't really comment on this one, but kids seem super well-adjusted here, really independent, happy, active, and confident. Lots of moms and dads seem to work 4 days a week to have a day each to spend with their kids before they go to school.
S3v3nsun@reddit
I believe you guys are making the right decision. I believe the Netherlands is perfect for introverts. As an introvert I traveled there for 2 weeks and went to every "cafe" shop there was and tried every strain.. Good luck!
Any-Fruit-3105@reddit
I’m not the biggest fan of NL but, holy crap, your question has attracted a lot of disgruntled misinformation, so I thought I’d be the voice of reason. You seem to have written from a throwaway account, so I can’t form a view on what type of person you are. That said, here are the key rules for assessing Western countries for expatriation as a citizen of a fellow Western country:
Keep in mind that the Reddit demographic tends to be very young and very poor. For people earning upwards of a certain threshold, there is no housing crisis. I moved to NL from London during COVID and was taken aback by how superior and affordable NL housing was in comparison to the UK. For me, that certain threshold was just over €2k in monthly rent. I know things have worsened since then but it’s important to keep things in perspective.
Pay less attention to strong views shared by expats from South and East Europe, as well as developing countries. Many of NL expats come from the deepest provinces of Portugal, Italy, Romania and Hungary. These origins don’t invalidate their views but they tend to focus on very different things relative to their Western European counterparts. For example, they tend to view NL as clean, safe and orderly, and marvel at things widely available elsewhere (public transportation). At the same time, they tend to experience shock when confronted with the healthcare system, whose values are the complete opposite of what they know from their countries. As a Bavarian or Swiss, you’d like regard NL as a filthy dump and borderline dangerous, see now different with the public transportation system, yet be surprised at how digitalised and efficient healthcare can be (though you’d also be surprised that you can’t pay your way through).
Ignore accusations of racism in the context of the Dutch tendency to switch into English when a foreigner attempts to speak Dutch. This doesn’t deserve an explanation.
Ignore blanket statements like “salaries in Germany are higher”. They are solely founded on those individual’s perceptions and ignore the wealth of economic data available to you for research.
Here are my subjective views:
Good: - Extremely easy to settle - Absolutely no need to speak any Dutch - Very nice, borderline warm people
Bad: - Food and hospitality - Weather - NL suffers from a very special type of wokeness - two-tier policing is normal, country is overrun with dangerous types emboldened by the near-total lack of law enforcement
And one more good to add to end the post on a positive note - the population recognises the latter problem and is politically on the right path.
captainacedia@reddit
My husband and I are an introverted couple in our mid-thirties who moved to the Netherlands last year. There's a lot of negatives, the housing crisis mostly. I've seen people complain about other things, but in my experience life has been decent.
Yes, I was on a waiting list to get mental health help, but the GP was happy to assist with prescribing medication that my psychiatrist in my home country had put me on. Now that I'm "in the system", I feel the care is really good, my medical aid covers basically everything, generally I'm pretty satisfied with the healthcare system.
Personally, I don't like Amsterdam. It's always super crowded and it seems to always be packed with tourists. It's a beautiful city, but it's just not for me.
I wish I had known how hard it would be to find a job.
I've found myself going out a lot more, I guess because we took this huge step to uproot our pretty stable life, I've tried to make the most of being here. I have gone to a lot of meetup events, met tons of people and joined a few clubs. On the street most people seem a bit blank faced, but I've met some really great people, both Dutch and fellow immigrants. We travel around the country a lot, seeing as many towns as possible, going on long walks and museums. I'd say the quality of life is much better here than where we are from originally. I can definitely see myself living here long-term.
Is it perfect - no. But I'm pretty happy.
Ok_Chipmunk_7724@reddit
I agree. Additionally, the Dutch are rather unwelcoming. I’ve had the impression that they seem to think they have enough „English speakers“ (even though I am able to understand Dutch just fine and I can also speak it, albeit with an accent. One tiny mistake and they switch to English, because „it’s easier“ and they „don’t want to be free Dutch teachers“). The expat community can be nice, though.
r0dica@reddit
I think the previous comment is overly negative (although some details are true). But to answer your questions: We were an introverted couple in our late 30s when we made the move. I always wanted to come back to Europe and husband always wanted to live here. Amsterdam was a bit of a happenstance due to a work opportunity. Our experience so far has been largely positive: we use a doctor that sees a lot of expats and sat us down to explain some differences. So far, we haven’t had issues. Sometimes things are different and frustrating and sometimes things are different and wonderful. We’re getting to love the quirks of people here and their language. We’re both unsure we would want to live elsewhere except maybe for a few months out of the year (to get some Sun and see some hills) We were ready for the rain and dark, so that’s not so much of a surprise. The lack of insulation in most buildings was / is a surprise so if you can be picky about a home, do that. We didn’t know and didn’t realize how important that would be to everyday cozy. Kids I’ve seen seem happy and active - playing in neighborhood areas and riding on bikes. Parents I know get a good flexibility from work to drop off / pick up kids / deal with sick kids. It’s a good culture for that. I know people with kids in Amsterdam and there are certainly plenty of Dutchies with kids in the capital, but most who stay long term (expats) end up moving to Haarlem or Utrecht for more space and being around more families with kids.