Texas republicans hate women. Nothing will change until Wheelie McGee and his cronies are voted out. Texas deserves better. I feel so terrible for anyone who has to go through this.
My story started out similarly to this. Almost 4 years ago, I had an ultrasound done and my baby’s heartbeat was slow and unexpected to last much longer, so we scheduled a follow-up a week later. By then, it was no longer beating. My doctor told me to wait and see if I’d have a natural miscarriage. It took about a week, but it finally happened. But I kept bleeding for the next month until I could finally get another ultrasound scheduled where my doctor said I’d had an incomplete miscarriage. Luckily for me, this was before the abortion ban so I got to have a D&C to clean out the remainder. I don’t know what would have happened if this had happened recently. My heart goes out to women who have to not only go through the pain of losing their babies, but also have to experience being turned around when they’re in need of medicine or procedures.
Texas it is time to vote out Republicans who have consistently and actively successfully proven they do not care about you or your rights.
How many women have to die? How many children have to suffer heartbreak? How many have to fear for their lives everyday, praying they aren't pregnant in a state like Texas. It's now or never.
I have no problem with a woman receiving any and all medical treatments that are required in this situation and am shocked that she didn't get it. As a father who was been in those situations with my wife where she was giving birth, I'm sure thus was a terrifying experience for her to be bleeding without getting assistance.
That does not mean I approve of aborting a healthy living baby however.
It sounds like this is the first time you are hearing about these experiences. Might seem like a one off thing, an unfortunate mistake, but this began happening as soon as Roe was overturned two years ago. Multiple women even tried to get courts to approve the medical care they need so doctors could operate without fear of prosecution, but Paxton fought them and won.
I'm not against life saving procedures for the mother at all. I also don't see why they would refuse treatment here if the baby was already dead. That doesn't fall under "abortion" for me. The baby is gone at that point.
The law doesn't make that distinction. Insurance doesn't make that distinction. Medical terminology doesn't make that distinction. An abortion is the removal of a pregnancy, whether it is currently viable or not.
This is great to say, but the reality is a miscarriage and removal of tissue afterwards is not an abortion. The fetus has already died and most times has left the body. A d&c is usually done to remove remaining tissue that does not pass naturally. In Texas this is a common procedure after a miscarriage
The law can call things whatever they want, it doesn’t change the medical definition of procedures. And if the law defines something differently than the medical definition of something, that is either nefarious on purpose, or negligent.
Since we are discussing the law, the legal definition is paramount. Of course each state will state the definition in the law or subsequent legal proceedings.
If the state banned let’s say root canals, but defined them differently than the procedure dentists are familiar with, you don’t think that might cause some confusion at the dental office?
The issue is that the threat of losing a license (and their livelihood) due to government interference in doctor-patient decisions under the statute stifles legitimate, necessary medical care. So, what constitutes a “healthy, living baby” in your opinion? 5, 10 weeks when many women don’t even know they are pregnant?
I'm not here to get into the specifics since I'm sure we will disagree across the board on it. Funny enough five weeks sounds reasonable to me since that's when you can detect the heart beat. So we can just go with that.
Ok so my wife had a miscarriage around eight weeks. She had to have a D&C around 12 weeks because the medications didn’t fully work.
If you ban abortions after 5 weeks, you’re saying that my wife couldn’t get a life saving treatment and might have been left infertile or dead.
So people like you are arbitrarily setting rules now, making it so doctors can’t help people in need. People who WANT CHILDREN are being hurt by this too. These laws are incredibly broad on purpose.
Have you any proof? This woman in this story had a miscarriage. It appears it was determined she didn’t need a d&c. It’s very suspicious that the woman’s ob isn’t part of this story. And that the husband didn’t take her to a hospital.
What would have happened in a true case is the woman would call her doctor and the doctor would have her go to a hospital.
If it’s true as this man is telling it, she has a lawsuit for malpractice. If you read the law, it doesn’t apply to her situation. This is a malpractice case.
Did you read my previous comments? If the baby is dead, no heartbeat, or the mother has had a miscarriage they deserve all of the medical treatments necessary. I don't consider those abortions at all - the baby is gone. There is no life there to "abort".
As I said - I'm against aborting health babies. Not cases where the mothers life is in danger.
You’re still attempting to impose your will on others when you can’t demonstrate consistent or objective criteria that would suggest that fetuses garner the same consideration as a human that’s already born. The line isn’t black or white. It’s quite grey, especially between the last trimester and the actual birth.
What defines humanity over other animals is personhood. Personhood is highly correlative, if not directly linked to, conscious/sentient experience. A heart beat and brain activity cannot prove that fetuses experience these phenomenon like we do. The most we will ever compromise is to agree to disagree.
But you want to impose laws that ARE harmful to many women because of this disagreement. Even though America should pride itself on the excess liberty attributed to its citizens. You want to restrict people from making a particular choice because of your opinion.
A large majority of people (even pro choice) oppose late term abortions. The only late term abortions are either extreme edge cases that are deemed medically necessary. Or by an EXTREMELY small minority of people who do not have a moral qualm with late term abortions. But those people are such a minority that any legislation seeking to ban that behavior will only lead to an increase in harm done to everyone else, at a much greater scale (several orders of magnitude) than any harm that would be prevented.
But you people see these stories from OP, thinking they are the exception, when in reality, they are the standard for women who are in danger from a pregnancy.
My friend it goes both ways here. You have to recognize the fact that just as many people are against abortion as for it. Neither side can win here without the others feeling like losers. Honestly I would Love a National ban on abortion (except for cases for the mothes life being in danger, rape, or incest).
However, even though I disagree with your description on when the baby is considered a person and thus has the same right as us all - the right to Life and Liberty - I recognize that you should have a voice in this matter.
Which is why I think this issue going back to the States is the best for both sides. Because now people can vote on it and not have the issue decided by 9 black robs in Washington.
I 100% disagree with Ohios take on abortion and how the people voted...but the people voted. That's what they wanted.
I can guarantee you my feelings for protecting the unborn are just as strong as your feelings for letting mothers abort them.
You’re wrong. More people support pro choice. The difference is that pro choice people don’t want to force people to get an abortion. We leave it up to the person. You want to enforce your decision on others.
The late term abortions are extremely rare. Almost all of them are done out of medical necessity.
The others that aren’t you can disagree with, and I would to for the most part. And perhaps it shouldn’t be allowed. But passing legislation to ban abortions as to prevent that from happening will end up causing more harm to others than it would prevent.
If law was passed that was so niche as to specifically restrict late term abortion. Then the same stories would appear where late term abortions would be denied until the mother is close to death, similar to the story presented by OP.
You think it’s ok for states to decide whether abortion is allowed or not. But you don’t want abortion to be allowed. So you’re just ok with some states being able to ban it. By your original logic, why stop at the state level. Why not municipal. Or local county government? Why stop there? Why not let the decision be made by each neighborhood instead. Or wait, why not let each person decide?
Im not ok with some states being able to ban it - I'm ok with people being able to vote on it. Whether I agree or disagree on the decision doesn't matter here.
The difference between you and me is where/when we place Human Life Value on the Baby. I believe, as do Millions of other people, that it's Value as a Human Llife begins at inception. Abortion, in my view, is honestly just plain Evil and falls in line with Eugenics.
That being my stance, which you may even think extreme even though I think yours is too, will never ever change. It won't. We aren't debating on economic policy here, this is a hard standing Moral issue.
Neither of us are going to change our minds - we really aren't and we both know it.
Yea. But you want the states to have the ability to impose your morality on others in a way that causes harm to already born humans. I want people to decide for themself. You can’t justify why we should consider the fetus more than the mother or father. It’s a subjective opinion that falls outside the general axioms of society. There are arguments to be made, but you’re not convinced of my side and I’m not convinced of yours.
The difference between us is that i want people to be able to make their own decisions on this matter, you want states to have the ability to impose the will of a majority onto a minority. And that imposition of will leads to demonstrable harm of the minority.
I feel like we are actually really close to an agreement here, but we both just fall off the mark when looking at each other's arguments.
You say, "why should we consider the fetus more than the mother or father." My answer to that is because the Fetus (Latin for offspring/baby) has far more to lose than the mother or father. Outside of the rare instances of the mothers life being in danger or rape (which is indeed a small percentage of overall abortions) - most people have abortions for convenience sake. One side loses their life, or the other loses their convenience.
Abortion should not be used as a 'get out of jail card" just because respecting adults didn't use proper contraception. It's very easy Not to get pregnant with the number of contraceptions available which I'm all for.
Circling back to the "majority putting their will on the minority" - do you believe the U.S. should get rid of the electoral college and go to a Popular vote?
Why give consideration to the fetus and not to the potential fetus that I ejaculate into the toilet? Why is conception so special that the consideration shifts?
What traits of a fetus would garner more personhood than when it was a sperm? Sure the timeline is closer, but the traits we value so much in humans over other life, especially animals, aren’t present in either. Arguably until close to the final stages of pregnancy.
Sperm and fetus are two different things. Sperm is male gamete with half of dna, a fetus is the result of a sperm fertilizing the female gamete (egg). And fetus wasn't once a sperm, it was once a fertilized egg.
My naive belief in humonculus theory aside. I will still ask the question, why does it matter if a fetus is human. What if a woman wanted her eggs removed? Why does the potential matter after conception?
I'm not talking about homunculus dude. What are you talking about?
Answering to your question because people believe life begins at conception, that's when a unique DNA froms which never existed before and will never exist again. I personally am not against abortion though.
If a woman removed her eggs those eggs are unfertilized so no life is created yet.
Oh gotcha. Had a person point out the same thing attributing it to homunculus theory or something f and calling me dumb. Bet! Sorry for being antagonistic 😊
A fetus was NEVER a sperm. Sperm only contributes half of the baby's DNA. Why do you try to pretend sperm (and not eggs, curiously) are already enough to reproduce and form a person??? If anything a fetus is more egg than sperm, it's the egg that gets fertilized and grows into a baby, not the sperm. Sperm is basically a delivery truck carrying half of DNA to the egg. All cell organelles and mtdna come from the egg.
So we care about fetuses because they are both sperm and egg? My point still stands. You talk about potential for human experience from fetuses. But you draw the line at conception. Why? Your answer is going to be purely subjective. Great. So it should be up to each person whether they get an abortion or not. Because even if you try to legislate against abortion, you will do a great harm to many women that we see today in red states. It’s not hard to understand
You don't even know a sperm dies during fertilization and never becomes a fetus. Obviously you still believe in homunculus theory and think a sperm is a whole person and egg is just an incubator. Go take a biology course first.
You can still read some books to understand how a baby is made even if you did drop out of anatomy. How come you know about sperm but not the egg??? If sperm would grow into a baby magically then how the hell do we inherit half of our dna and our mtDNA from our mothers???
You’re a joke. You can’t explain it. Or you won’t. My level of biological understanding doesn’t matter because my oblivious belief in humorous theory doesn’t change the question and premise. You’re just focusing on that because you know you just want to be an authoritarian monster and enforce your weird dogmatic morality on everyone else. Have fun losing in November.
You are an idiot because you are the one who thinks a fetus was once a sperm. Like women contribute nothing and are just incubators for a man's sperm and contribute nothing so sperm becomes bigger and bigger until it becomes a baby lol ridiculous
That’s great. Happy for you. Why do we care about the potential of a fetus? Why does it matter that we start as a fetus and not a sperm? Explain why abortion should be banned. Thanks
Why is it ok for states to decide and not the country?
If it’s ok for states to why can’t we put it down another level, have cities decide? Why not local counties? Why not neighborhoods? Why not just each person?
The only fetuses that are aborted fully developed are ones that pose a danger to the mother or are already deceased. You sound really ignorant to statistics on when abortions are performed and why.
lol it doesn’t matter what your personal preference is in these situations. You keep voting for people that disagree with that and favor blanket bans.
Not sure why you love BIG GOVERNMENT so much anyway. Complain about what they do with your taxes and then turn around and cheer when they force medical decisions on people. Truly insanity
It’s too murky and too much of a grey area. That’s why doctors wait until you’re on death’s door to save your life. The government should not have any say in this at all because you run into issues like this.
The abortion ban also threatens IVF. People who cannot conceive naturally should have the option to have and raise a family with the medical advancements we have today and that’s really not the governments business.
It's hard to say that the government should have no say in this matter - but then ask the government to take a stance on it by allowing it. That's a little hypocritical.
I say let the government have Zero say and just let people vote on it. Want IVF to be legal? Put it up for vote. Let the people vote on it.
That’s cute but unfortunately that’s not how democracy works. God I really hope you’re not old enough to vote in this election because you’re clearly not well read. Just say you hate women and move on
Ah, there it is. The insults. Did your feelings get hurt?
I'll stick with my opinion on the matter. Let the people vote on it. I'll note that States like Ohio took a stance i don't agree with on abortion - but guess what, that's how democracy works. The people voted and the majority in the state got what they wanted.
My feelings are fine you’re just an incel and as a result of no woman looking you in the eye you want to punish women who have sex. You’ve probably never even held a woman’s hand and it shows
It's hard to say that the government should have no say in this matter - but then ask the government to take a stance on it by allowing it. That's a little hypocritical.
Incorrect. You have freedom until the government curtails it. After having curtailed it, the only way to restore the freedom is to have the government allow it. There is no hypocrisy here
Let’s say your wife gets pregnant again.
Something terrible happens during early pregnancy. To live, she would need to abort a healthy living fetus. If not, she dies for sure, leaving you a widower and your kids (including your newborn) motherless.
Thanks. I have gone back and read the texts again.
I do not see anywhere where it says that an abortion may be performed because the woman needs treatment that is incompatible with pregnancy.
It only talks about emergencies.
Needed an abortion because you need to start chemo or something immediately is a terrible situation obviously, but it’s damn unlikely that the courts would call it an emergency if they’ve already decided other way more serious situations are not.
The law is vague as hell, on purpose. It describes how they are going to investigate every single abortion, and if THEY decide it wasn’t warranted, they can send the doctor to jail.
So of course doctors are hesitant unless it’s absolutely 100% clear that there was no other choice. They’re just not going to risk it otherwise.
They are not going to give you an abortion because you need chemo.
By your logic the federal government should be allowed to compel you to donate a healthy organ in order to support another life. That's essentially what is happening here.
I don't think the Federal government should be involved at all - supporting either position. Leave it up to the states where the People can actually control the law on this.
Just as many people disagree with abortion as agree with it. The only solution is to let people vote on it at the state level which is happening.
The government compels me to do a lot of things I'd rather not do. I had to sign up for the draft at 18 that could lead me going to war where I could die. I have no control over my body in that matter. I don't see riots in the streets for that.
I think the government should indeed compel people to protect human life yes. With the amount of contraception available to people today, abortion should only be permitted for medical necessity reasons - not convenience.
Let's not argue exceptions here please. You argue the rule not the exception.
There really is no reason to go further in this discussion tho since neither of us will change our minds on the matter.
Were you drafted in the 70s? If so, I believe there literally were riots in the streets for that.
Sorry we couldn't continue the discussion. A lot of women (and infants for that matter, their mortality rate has increased too) will be dying in the meantime.
I understand how Google works. I'm asking for your source specifically. Just by doing a cursory search the number is closer to 63 million, so your number appears to be made up. An article from Pew references that 62% of Americans believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases.
If it's all the same to you I'll just go back to being terrified because of the government and male voters in my state who think they have something to say about what I do with my body. Thanks though!
The medical definition of abortion is the removal of pregnancy tissue, products of conception or the fetus and placenta (afterbirth) from the uterus.
It makes no distinction if it is alive or dead or dying.
That's not correct. The medical definition of an abortion is the termination of pregnancy before the fetus can survive outside the uterus. This is why there is a distiction between spontaneous and elective abortions.
Texas Health and Safety Code 245.002 says that an (elective) abortion is the use of medical resources with the explocit intent to cause death of an unborn child. It also has stipulation stating in subsection 1.B that the conditions of removing an unborn, dead child is not an abortion (although a miscarriage is considered a spontaneous abortion). A dilation and currtage (D&C) is very different from an elective abortion.
I will say that I really wish the OOPs spouse had received better care. I work in the medical field and it is so disappointing when I hear stories where someone isn't taken care of. I take pride in what I do and that is not what I stand for. The hospital system certainly failed her in her time of need and needs to do better.
However, this story is misrepresenting the perceived need for elective abortions to save lives. Lifting an abortion ban is not what she needed. What she needed was a D&C which is not an elective abortion but a medical procedure to prevent infection and hemorrhage. Why they didnt perform this procedure, i dont know, but it wasnt because of an abortion ban. I will never be OK with ending the life of a child.
That’s seriously fucking wild. The logic never stops with what constitutes “killing a baby” to republicans. We’ve got IVF bans in some places trying to go through, next it’ll be birth control of any kind since most kinds of birth control can allow fertilization but not implantation. What I’m most afraid of is if some dickwad tries to convince Texas lawmakers to pursue miscarriage as needing to put women on criminal trials to make sure it was nature that caused it and nothing that they may have done wrong, trying to pursue miscarriage as manslaughter or something.
There's enough room for ambiguity in the law that a lot of doctors won't take the risk. Either they're not well versed enough in the field (think rural doc) or they're afraid of having to deal with a lawsuit because the woman wasn't verifiably in sepsis.
It does happen in DFW though, one of my fiancee's coworkers lost an ovary due to an ectopic pregnancy. She went to the ER a few times in a week and each time they told her they couldn't help her. Finally she went into sepsis and had to have emergency surgery. I can't imagine what their bills are, they didn't have insurance cause "they're healthy and don't need to pay for it".
It’s terrifying to be a woman in Texas, especially if you’re still of reproductive age.
I’ve had family say “just go out of state” like everyone has the money for that. If you’re actively having a miscarriage it’s too dangerous to get on a plane or drive.
And if Trump wins and we have a conservative congress, I’d be willing to bet that the first thing they pass is a national abortion ban. Out of State won’t even be an option anymore.
My point is the Supreme Court would strike it down. They have clearly ruled it’s up to the states. It would be unconstitutional; they’ve already decided this.
They wouldn’t is my point. Think about it. A ban or “minimal national standard” has not come before the court. Reread Dobbs- it’s a privacy case. I’m an attorney & this is my issue.
The abortion ban didn't change anything about miscarriages. At all. A miscarriage means there is no heartbeat. There is nothing to save. The baby has passed. If you're having a miscarriage they will treat it by trying to use the least invasive procedure possible, starts with letting it pass naturally, then trying a pill to help it pass, then a DNC. It's the physician's job to decide when they need to move up to a DNC due to health risks. Has nothing to do with the abortion ban.
A D&C is only done after the mother has already expelled the fetus, or as a diagnostic procedure. If the mother has not expelled the fetus, but there is no heartbeat, a D&E or D&X may be necessary. Both are forms of medically necessary abortion.
I'm speaking of early term miscarriages, if a fetus is further along that D&E or D&X would be needed to remove the fetus they would induce labor using petocin instead as this is actually safer for the mothers body since the fetus and placenta will come out intact, leaving less chance of retained products of conception. An abortion is never medically necessary.
If you saw the video, they tried medical abortion (that is the term for medication used to induce a miscarriage). It did not work. When they went back to the urgent care center, they should immediately have been referred to the hospital, which they were not. In this instance, the hospital very likely would have done a dilation & evacuation (an abortion), or a dilation & extraction (an abortion) depending on the trimester. The mother was in serious medical distress, and at this point, would have been considered too risky to try to induce labor (plus, she had already been prescribed medication to encourage the spontaneous abortion of the fetus, which failed). And yes, abortion can be medically necessary, as per the opinion in this joint statement from ACOG (American College of Obstetricians & Gynecologists) and PRH (Physicians for Reproductive Health): https://www.acog.org/news/news-releases/2019/09/abortion-can-be-medically-necessary
In a statement you listed from ACOG, they are using the term abortion in the medical sense which literally just means the ending of a pregnancy. That's why women who have a wanted pregnancy, if they have a miscarriage, it is listed as a spontaneous abortion. They did not go to get an abortion as we use the word in society, but medically speaking they had a spontaneous abortion. That statement refers to if the mother's life is in danger then medical abortion is necessary. What this would mean is that if the mother for instance had hypertension uncontrolled or a kidney issue that was putting her life in danger due to the pregnancy they would induce labor when it is unlikely for the baby to be able to survive out of the womb. Thus being a medical abortion. It is not speaking of the term abortion as we throw it around, meaning the intentional ending of another life inside the womb.
They would not have given her Misoprostol if she was far enough along to need a D&E or D&X, that in itself would be medical malpractice. So if the medication wasn't working they would perform a D&C.
I am an OBGYN sonographer and have been in Texas for 10+ years. In the DFW with the physicians I work with 16+ nothing has changed in the way miscarriages are treated after roe v Wade was overturned.
I do not think what happened to this woman was right from what I have seen, but I do not think it has anything to do with the abortion laws and everything to do with poor medical care, honestly medical malpractice.
Ectopics, and miscarriages in my personal experience in Texas have been treated the same as they were prior to the abortion law. The only difference is that people have been going out of state to receive elective abortions and don't want to return for the follow up ultrasound out of state, so more often end up coming to a physician in Texas for follow up care. I feel that the false belief that D&Cs after miscarriage cannot be performed in Texas causes women to be less likely to seek the care they can definitely receive in Texas and is dangerous to assume or tell others they can't.
You’re not understanding. I’m not talking about “society” or how “we throw [the term abortion] around”. I’m talking about the law, and how it pertains to medical professionals, using the term abortion specifically. The law uses the term abortion yet doesn’t specifically define the word, and I guarantee that the law isn’t “throwing the term around”. If a provider must perform vacuum aspiration, a D&C, a D&E or D&X because the mother’s life is in jeopardy, then they are, technically, surgically, and yes, LEGALLY performing an abortion, regardless of whether it’s considered elective or (yes) medically necessary. If you’re telling me that the ONLY reason a D&C, D&E or D&X is ever performed is because someone decides they don’t want to be pregnant anymore, then I don’t know where (or for what doctors) you work. I do know, from your profile, that you seem to be a dedicated and caring Christian, so I would assume you work for a clinic that doesn’t perform these procedures at all. All I have to add is this, from the March of Dimes, where there are maternal and infant mortality rate statistics that do indicate that fetal abnormalities are the leading cause of pre-term birth and infant death in Texas. We are rated a D- by the March of Dimes, and Houston in particular is rated an F for having the highest mortality rate in the state.
No, I work for private OB offices who prior to the ban would aid in women receiving elective abortions. I am certainly a Christian, and I do believe that elective abortions are wrong. However, I'm not politically active. I don't vote. I don't assign myself to any party and I think that both parties have horribly corrupt things about them, which is why I just choose to let it play out how it plays outThat has nothing to do with the medical procedures that we're talking about. Whether you're pro-life or pro-choice isn't the issue here.
The issue is that people are spreading misinformation stating that people cannot simply get life-saving care in Texas because of an abortion law, and that is simply not factual information. The misinformation that is being spread by people stating this leads to women not seeking proper care in Texas because they believe they will be denied, which is not the truth. I'm not saying what happened to this woman didn't happen. I don't know about that case. What I am saying is that would be medical malpractice and nothing to do with the abortion law.
A provider never needs to perform a D&E or D&X because the mother's life is in danger. If a mother's life is in danger and they are so far along that a D&C would not be sufficient, they would induce labor. If there were medical abnormalities that were a risk to the mother's life, they would induce Labor, the abortion ban doesn't stop this from happening. inducing labor prior to viability is considered a "medical abortion". That is why I brought up the definition. What people in the medical profession use the word abortion for is not the same as what the law is using it for and I feel like this is what's causing so much confusion about the law.
Ending a pregnancy via induction is not prohibited and is not what the law prohibits. If a mother is in danger due to her pregnancy and the doctors deem the pregnancy needs to be ended early, they will choose to induce not perform a DNX or DNE, this has been this way pre and post the abortion ban. Why? Because both of these procedures are more dangerous than inducing labor, they pose more of a risk to the mother than inducing labor does. Inducing labor to save a mother's life, or performing a Suction D&C to remove a miscarriage are not prohibited by the abortion laws in Texas, what is prohibited is the ending of a life while in the womb. Again if a mother 's life is in danger and she is so far along that a D&C would not suffice, they would induce labor. The child would be born and if it was before 23 weeks often no life-saving attempts would be made. However, this varies from hospital or hospital and provider to provider whether or not they would perform life-saving measures regardless of gestational age.
I feel like we're just going in circles here and possibly not understanding each other. And I am more than happy to agree to disagree if that is the case. I would never want what happened to this young woman to happen to anyone and I hope that women will seek care and receive high quality care. I sincerely wish you all the best. Have a great night.
But that’s simply not true. An intact D&E absolutely can and is used to perform an abortion after the fetal heartbeat is detected. In this case, the heartbeat was not detected, and the procedure could have been performed (and is actually indicated to be performed) after misoprostil had been administered to soften the cervix. Removing a dead fetus does not fall under the legal definition of a “partial-birth abortion”, which is most definitely illegal in Texas. In the case of a mother who would lose a child to severe deformity either prior to birth or immediately after birth, I’m not sure the laws have changed in Texas, as I’m not familiar with the law pertaining to partial-birth abortion in this state, but I don’t think we are disagreeing, here. I think you’re discussing a fetus that is still alive and I’m discussing the above situation where the fetus is no longer viable, in which case the mother likely could have received an intact D&E.
Also, a D&C is not done in first trimester as an abortive procedure either. Vacuum aspiration would be the procedure used, and afterward, a D&C would be used to remove any remaining tissue or debris from the pregnancy.
It's almost like you missed 80% of the whole post, and you are talking out of your ass.
It has everything to do with the abortion ban, because caregivers are denying lifesaving medical care. And it's not a "DNC" it's a D&C, dilation and curettage. Doctors are too scared to perform because it falls under the blanket of abortion procedures, because Texas lawmakers would rather women die with the fetus than save the woman at the expense of the fetus.
I know what the procedure is. DNC is that way I chose to shorthand it. I am an obgyn sonographer in Texas, I have been for 10+ years. Nothing regarding this has changed. We still do DNCs for miscarriages regularly. Physicians do the least invasive things first, let the body pass it, then give a pill to help pass it, then DNC as a last resort. The abortion ban didn't change anything regarding that, because it's not considered an abortion. It is a procedure that the physician chooses to escalate to depending on the circumstances. This is a medical malpractice issue not anything to do with abortion.
You think medical professionals don't make mistakes? They may have denied it because patient was unfunded, or any number of other reasons, including sheer stupidity. Too many women in this state die and it has nothing to do with the abortion ban and everything to do with medical malpractice and lack of healthcare and funding for women who need it.
Obviously they make mistakes. Having a ban in place that makes performing a lifesaving procedure potentially something you could lose your license for is making an awful lot of doctors deny care because they don't know if they're going to be prosecuted for it.
The sheer stupidity you speak of is the state thinking they have any business legislating medical care, causing medical practitioners to opt for the "safe path" of denying care because the mother wasn't close enough to dead.
Saying multiple denials of a D&C and other maternal healthcare proceedsures has nothing to do with the abortion ban are themselves in denial.
Maternal mortality rates have skyrocketed in Texas since the ban went in place. The repercussions of this ban are far reaching, and it's fucking foul. http://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna171631
I have no idea about this certain situation, I wasn't there don't have medical records and have not spoken to the physician. From a medical standpoint in Texas it doesn't make much sense for them to deny her a DNC if she needed one, as there is no law against the procedure. It's done regularly on non pregnant people all the time, and if there is no heartbeat again it's not an abortion. I work with 16+ obgyns in the DFW and none would have an issue doing a DNC on someone who has miscarried, so I'm really not sure what happened, but it's not because of the law. It doesn't bother me what anyone's stance is about the law or prolife vs pro choice, but it is frustrating when misinformation spreads regarding what can be done medically as it actually prevents people from seeking the care that they absolutely can receive here in Texas.
And the thing is, it doesn't matter if you do have the money to go out of state and are medically stable enough to do so.
If they agree that abortion should be allowed in the case of medical necessity, why the fuck isn't it!? Like, let's fucking start there, and ignore the fact that Republicans are pushing for a total national ban, or punishing women for getting medical care in another state that's banned in their home state. Let's just pretend that the current status quo won't change, how the fuck can they be OK with saying "you just have to go up to those heathens in [neighboring state] that will remove the corpse in your belly that's actively killing you so our God-fearing Texas doctors can keep their hands clean" (even though most of them would gladly do so if legally allowed - I understand not wanting to throw away your medical license over a single patient just because of shitheaded politicians).
I was born in Tyler, not far from DFW.
The only reason I was is that my mom was allowed a D&C after her miscarriage in Pre Roe Texas.
In Texas, before Roe was the law of the land doctors understood that caring for a miscarriage was healthcare.
I am alive today because my mother’s fertility was sustained due to those ideas being in place.
Others today are not so fortunate. How do we help them tell their stories too?
It's still allowed now. Nothing changed regarding the ability to have a DNC after a miscarriage. The baby is already dead at this point. It's not an abortion!
Honestly I have no idea it makes no sense, there is no law preventing them to. If there is no heartbeat it's not considered an elective abortion. 16+ physicians I work for in the DFW have no qualms about performing them, because it's not illegal. It's only illegal to do if there is a live fetus, with a heartbeat.
All Ken Paxton has to do is claim the fetus did have a heartbeat. He can claim the doctor intended to perform an illegal abortion and fabricated the test results to justify it. A lawsuit on this premise will crush any small private practice doctor, regardless of the 'legality' of the procedure.
They can document absent fetal heart tones with an ultrasound. It doesn't have to be a he said she said thing, they would have proof, which is part of why they have medical records.
The article you referenced was not referring to the mother's life being at risk or speaking of a miscarriage where the fetus had already passed, which is what I'm saying that the law doesn't prohibit any procedures that help save the mother's life, including performing a D&C after a miscarriage.
The hospital can document all they want, and they can present it at trial, and probably win, but the doctor still has a criminal arrest and prosecution on their record that will follow them around the rest of their lives. The pro-lifers will ignore the trial outcome and harass the hospital and all their doctors, nurses, staff, etc, because after all, "if there wasn't a crime, why would they be prosecuted? They must be abortionists that got off on a technicality". In other words, in a decent world there would never be even a hint of a threat of prosecution, but we live in the GOP's world where implied threats of prosecution are the same exact thing as actual prosecutions. You may beat the rap but you're still going on the ride. Hell, the hospital's insurers likely told the hospitals to not even think about doing anything that could even remotely be thought of as an abortion simply because of the money it would cost the hospital's insurers. Better to avoid the whole thing up front by denying care.
This whole idea that someone would accuse someone of performing an elective abortion on someone just seems illogical, who is going to sue the woman who already knows her pregnancy ended and signed a consent for the treatment? HIPPA doesn't allow anyone without written consent to even see the records... so please tell me who's walking around accusing Doctors treating women with miscarriages of performing elective abortions?
I literally scanned today a woman who just had a D&C in Texas after a miscarriage, it's literally not a big deal and no one is making a big deal out of it. It's not the same thing as an elective abortion and medical Doctors are not confused about that nor are they worried. Doctors are not walking around afraid to do these procedures. If the doctors in this case are claiming that, they are covering something up big time and hoping the pro-choice community becomes their rally cry.
All the lege has to do is spell out in law, clearly and succinctly, that doctors cannot be prosecuted or charged for performing a medically necessary abortion. Eliminate the vague language, and since legislatures aren't doctors, spell out clearly and irrevocably that it's up to the doctor to decide what's medically necessary, and spell out that they're immune from any prosecution. As long as doctors and their insurance companies and lawyers say that the law is vague enough to allow prosecution then the doctors are doing the right thing by denying service. They have the right to protect themselves and their families from bogus prosecutions.
Yes, you keep saying "the law" this and "the law" that. The text of the law is irrelevant. The lawsuit itself, not the outcome, can destroy someone's career.
That is your experience and not the reality of so many women denied care. I’m an attorney and quite familiar with the topic. A group of women denied care sued to clarify the law but our TX Supreme Court ruled against them.
No it's not. A D&C is a procedure where they remove the lining of the uterus where a fetus implants. They perform these on both pregnant and non pregnant people. It is a type of procedure used during an elective abortion yes, but the procedure in of itself is not an abortion. Abortion in the medical sense simply means the ending of a pregnancy. Even a wanted pregnancy that ends is considered a spontaneous abortion. If there is no heartbeat as in an incomplete spontaneous abortion ( meaning the body hasn't passed the deceased fetus and products of conception) a D&C can be used to remove the lining, fetus, and products of conception. This is not the same thing as having an elective abortion where the fetus is alive with a heartbeat at the time of the procedure. The law does not prohibit D&C procedures in the case of miscarriage. It is not usually the first option Doctors choose pre or post law because it is a surgery they will try less invasive options first, such as allowing the patients body time to pass it, using Misoprostol meds to help the body pass it, and if those fail usually D&C is the next step. I literally have scanned patients who had D&Cs for a miscarriage in Texas a week ago. Doctors in Texas are not scared to perform D&Cs on patients who have miscarried.
I am an obgyn sonographer in Texas and I have not seen any change in the way physicians care for patients who have a miscarriage. The only difference has been if the PT wants an elective abortion at any gestational age they refer them to an out of state clinic, just as they did for patients who were over 22 weeks gestational age and wanted an elective abortion prior to the law changing, as Texas already could not legally perform them past this gestational age.
I'm not sure what happened with this woman but it has nothing to do with the law and might be medical malpractice.
all I'm seeing in this thread is that people want to believe what they want to believe and completely ignore the fact that NOBODY with a shred of medical education would consider this situation to fall even remotely within the realm of an abortion. I would bet that this has everything to do with the patient having shitty insurance making hospitals not want to touch her, a lack of competent doctors in these small hospitals, etc., and not with the abortion ban.
And what exactly are you basing your 'really, really, really' statement on? If you're telling me that medical malpractice can kill someone I love - well, duh, I'm fully aware of that. But that risk isn't exclusive to abortion, it applies to any medical treatment in general. Medical errors cause between 210K and over 400K deaths per year in the US.
Except right now, due to the current laws and policies in Texas concerning abortions, there have been numerous cases where pregnant women need to be close to death in order to get an abortion that would save their lives. This has happened multiple times where doctors know the pregnancy has problems/needs to be aborted, but Doctors are essentially just waiting for the woman to get closer to death/have severe symptoms/turn septic etc before they will provide the medically necessary abortion.
While it's true that Texas's abortion laws have led to delays in care for some women, it's important to note that these cases haven't resulted in widespread fatalities, as might be implied. The five lawsuits filed in 2023 represent isolated, though serious, incidents, and they raise concerns about how medical professionals are interpreting the law. However, this issue may be more indicative of medical malpractice or a lack of clarity in the law rather than the law itself being fundamentally flawed. Doctors should not be waiting for patients to be near death, and these cases highlight the need for clearer guidelines to prevent unnecessary suffering while still adhering to the law.
I don't believe they are short sighted. I truly believe they can't display empathy for other people. And if that situation does happen to them they believe they are the exception to the rule.
We display empathy for the people, but also for the babies that are sacrifices. I could easily say that pro-choice folks can't display empathy because they are willing to kill children for their convenience, but I wouldn't because it isn't helpful to anyone and doesn't change anyone's mind.
We cannot agree on when the developing fetus is a child.
Some say at birth. Others say when the fetus is fully developed and could survive being removed from the mother. Still others say at the moment of implantation into the uterus, or at the fertilization of the egg.
I find it telling that legally, it's a child at the moment of birth. Before that, it's a part of the mother. Whether that birth is at 40 weeks of gestation, or some number less due to medical intervention, that is when insurance, social security numbers, and the legal existence of the child begins. Before that moment, it is legally not an individual person and has no rights.
It's easy to be the voice of the unborn. They can't disagree with you, no matter what you say. You can just make up whatever argument you want, then demonize anyone who disagrees with you with a false sense of moral superiority. The science on when a fetus should be considered "complete" and capable of independent survival outside the mother, and many other factors that make up a person, is incomplete.
Personally I choose to err on the side of the already established and existing person being able to make their own decisions about the life form growing inside them. Let the doctors and the patients figure out the care required to sustain one or both lives. If I had been forced to choose between my child and my wife at any time before he was born, I'd choose to save the mother every time. If the child was already dead inside her like in the video, what's the point of making her wait 4 days and pass out from infection and blood loss before giving her the care she needs?
None of this pertains to whether I have empathy or not. Most of the folks who get abortions never even approach the situation in this video, so we can basically leave it behind. I’d happily agree with you that these procedures should be legal (they are) if you’d agree with me we could ban all non-life-saving abortions (you won’t).
The only logical place for the beginning of life is conception. Any other given place has holes and logical inconsistencies. Regardless, that has nothing to do with my empathy.
All you’ve done is prove my point. There is no definitively logical place to define the beginning of life. Fertilization and implantation don’t actually create a life. Those cells were alive before they joined.
Many sperm fertilize many eggs that never implant.
Many implantations are of nonviable eggs.
Many spontaneous rejections of a zygote or embryo can result in the need for medical care.
There are too many variables to make a one-size-fits-all law that will have the desired result without causing irreparable harm to some. Threatening doctors with prison time for what comes down to a judgement call between them and their patient is a bad policy.
Conception creates new DNA. That is my standard for new and separate life. It’s a clear and definable difference. No other stage of gestation has such a clear and definable before and after.
If you can’t define where life begins, then you shouldn’t be gambling with exterminating it. If your going to kill fetuses, you need to be able to say whether they are living people or not. If you can’t, you should err on the side of life until you can.
95% of abortions happen before 13 weeks. Before significant brain development. Is it a human life? Sure. DNA and all that stuff. However without the brain I would argue there isn't a person in there yet. That is why we don't consider pulling the plug on brain dead people murder. I don't find anything morally wrong with terminating it at that stage. The fetus never experienced anything.
If you believe in souls then you can disregard everything I just said.
We don't consider pulling the plug on the brain dead murder because it's determined that they won't be coming back. A child is growing and will gain consciousness.
Abortion is more comparable to killing a man who is in a coma, but is expected to recover. They can't take care of themselves and on their own they would die. They can't defend themselves, and provide no intelligent thought. Yet they still live and soon will regain their intelligence.
I'm curious on your thoughts in this. On hearing my comparison, do you still think that yours is more apt? Is the fetus really more comparable to a brain dead man who will never recover, or to a man in a coma who soon will?
I believe in the soul, but not only do I not need that belief at all for this argument, you will never hear me bring it up on my own in this sort of argument.
I mean the fetus literally doesn't have the physical mechanisms developed yet for an active consciousness at the time of most abortions. There is no person in that body yet. They have no hopes or dreams or pain or thoughts of any kinds. I see nothing morally wrong with termination during that time period.
Of course everytime I say this the first response is always "well they will develop it if we don't stop the process." Which is true but that doesn't change the morality of the act in my eyes as long as it's in that stage of development.
The mother gets what she wants and a consciousness wasn't extinguished because it didn't exist yet. Win-win as far as I'm concerned.
In your first comment to me, you agreed that it was a human life. If you think that it is okay to kill people who are inconvenient to you and who will come to live a full and complete life, then I'm not sure if I can help you find your humanity. You pro-choice folk who admit that it is a human life are the most honest and logically consistent of your kind, though you are also the most heartless. Most pro-choice folks delude themselves or don't consider the topic; the fact that you see the human life is a comment on your intelligence and consistency, but a poor one on your character.
It really is amazing to see the range of what humanity can either justify to itself or get hung up on. I'll never understand people like you who feel free to rob what you know is a human life of their future just for the convenience of someone who has power over them. It really is a sort of oppression. With most folks I'm trying to get them to see the human in the womb and hoping that if they see that, their character will make them sickened towards abortion, but there really is almost nothing to be done for people like you who see the truth and just have broken morals.
It's why I'm supremely happy for the efforts of our supreme court justices and sympathetic state legislatures here in America. Though the world mostly falls into the moral degeneracy of "me me me," there are still a few brave people who defend the rights of the unborn from the selfish that seek to take what little they have.
It's human life only in the biological sense of it contains human DNA. However I am arguing that before 13 weeks when 95% of all abortions happen it is not a person yet. No brain = no person. It's simply biological and I don't have a moral issue with terminating during that stage.
I also think that ultimate control over your own body is a fundamental right. If someone is in my house that threatens my life I can kill them. Yet a fetus in a woman's body that threatens their life must be protected? It lacks consistency. Also for clarification all pregnancies are dangerous. Complications can appear quickly and without warning.
I'm not sure what truth you think I am seeing yet choosing to ignore. I've stated my beliefs as clearly and concisely as possible. This thing you think was deleted from the universe simply didn't exist. I don't feel bad about things that don't exist.
You are free to feel however you want about my moral character but I won't lose any sleep over it. I stand by my belief and feel that it is the correct one.
I don't know why you try to make all of these analogies that aren't correct. A fetus in a woman is not like someone random coming into your house and threatening you. A fetus in a woman is like if you kidnapped someone off the street, took them into your house, then shot them in the head for "trespassing" and claimed that you were justified. The child didn't choose to be there. They were put there by someone else. They aren't invading anything.
It only lacks consistency when you draw false comparisons.
I'm sick and tired of people putting words in my mouth on Reddit. Did I ever once say that you were ignoring a truth? There are no facts here. If you think it is okay to kill innocent people, there is nothing I can do factually to convince you otherwise. On these moral calls, there's nothing that can be proven objectively unless I knew what moral code that you hold to. Very few people hold to a moral code these days that isn't religious, and I don't pin you as one of those. At the end of the day, if you want to hold the evil belief that murdering people is fine so long as they don't currently have consciousness, then you've already accepted that into your heart; your brain isn't going to pull you out of it.
No, you don't think that what you are killing doesn't exist. Unless you are saying that the fetus is actually a figment of our imaginations, you know very well that it exists. That is what you are killing, for all intents and purposes. Wrestle with the importance of the fetus, don't delude yourself into thinking that what you see and what I see is so entirely different so as to be different entities. I see exactly what you do.
I know that you won't lose any sleep over it. I think the only pro-choice people that question it are the woman who get abortions. Only they seem to have the experience to understand the complexity of the question.
I've argued with an infinite amount of folks like you. I've learned that it's a practice in futility to try to convince someone like you. I provide my arguments for my own practice at logic. Luckily, my movement has succeeded; thanks to the supreme court, my state was able to ban abortion in all but life-threatening scenarios. While I still look with abject mourning at the slaughter that your ilk perpetuate, I also don't lose sleep, because at least my community of millions of people have seen how barbaric this practice is and don't allow it in our hospitals. Though I hold little hope that people will suddenly realize the evil that they wring upon this Earth, me and mine will continue to fight for the rights of the little ones. Hopefully we encounter people less hard hearted than you.
We will have to agree to disagree. You will continue to fight against abortion and I will continue to fight for abortion. I think if you don't like abortion you should simply choose not to have one. In my eyes taking away women's control of their body is the evil act here.
I've said enough on this topic so we can end things here. Have a good one.
Yeah you too. I’ll just finish it by saying you know I can’t just live-and-let-live on this one. You should know that if I think abortion is murder it can’t simply be “don’t get one.” We don’t do that for any other violent crime, we protect the weak and innocent.
I understand that you will never stop fighting for what you believe is right. Neither will I. Only time will tell who wins but like most things in life the fight never ends.
Cancer also kills the host. Just like the law, I’m fine for abortive measures when the mother’s life is at risk.
I don’t even have to get into the difference between cancer and a fetus here. Even if you assumed I had the most brain dead take that they were the same this isn’t the gotcha you might’ve thought.
The treatment for cancer can also kill the host. But that treatment should be the sole discretion of the patient and their doctor(s).
Same for a pregnancy. How the bundle of cells within a person's uterus is handled should be between that person and their doctor(s).
I'm with the majority who belive that abortion should be legal in most cases. I believe that third trimester abortions are exceptionally rare, and those cases generally fit into a "life of the mother" situation.
I believe that a fetus is not the same as a person, and that in most cases it cannot be considered one without extreme intervention prior to about 30 weeks.
I believe that less than 1% of abortions occur after 20 weeks, which is well before the end of fetal development.
I believe that abortions are on the decline without draconian laws that lead to people being denied medical care.
I believe that if you want to prevent unwanted pregnancies, the proper response is to increase education and access to contraception, and not to deny access to medical care after the fact.
I believe that Texas' abortion ban has led to more deaths than it has prevented abortions.
Implying a belief is correct because of how many people hold it is a fallacy.
As for Texas, I find that article very strange. If the new abortion ban is solely responsible for a rise in mortality during pregnancy, then why is it going back down in 2022 back to it's 2019 levels? Especially because that's when the law become more extreme. Seems like it's trending back down.
Also, there were 50,000 abortions in Texas in 2021. In 2021 there were 373,671 births, at 28.5 maternal mortality per 100,000 live births, that means there was about 106 mortalities. Are you trying to convince me that the lives of 106 people (of which many still would have died before the law passed because maternal mortality wasn't zero) is worth 50,000 lives? Like, are you actually trying to convince anyone of anything? I'm sorry for what happened to these women, but you think I'm going to be like "Oh no, these 100 deaths are so sad, we should have killed 50,000 children so that we could have only 60 instead." It's ridiculous. Actually look at the context of your numbers and explain to me how any pro-life person would ever be swayed by this reality.
None of your other statements matter. Oh, you believe a fetus isn't a person? Okay, thanks for telling me? Mind actually providing some sort of a argument to justify that, that I can engage with? I don't know you, you're opinion isn't more important to me than any random person, so you've got to provide some reasoning if you want me to actually care rather than just some random statement.
Only 1% occur after 20 weeks. I believe it's wrong at the very instance of conception. What does this mean to me? Did you read my previous post?
Your plan for reducing abortions is fine, but just because I can reduce violent homicides by increasing the economic outcomes of impoverished areas of the US doesn't mean we don't arrest the culprits as well.
I understand that you are breaking down like someone in the army when they are captured now that you are facing some sort of pushback and just stating your manifesto so that you don't let the dangerous thoughts into your head, but you've really got to give me something to work with here. Tell me why you believe these things and why they matter to you, don't just give me statements. You write like you are trying to just information-load whoever is reading your comment so they believe you must be right, but no one is reading our comments this far down other than me. And I know too much about this than to be swayed by popular polling and surface-level statistics.
But that's exactly my point. I didn't bring up the 50,000 versus 100 thing, YOU DID (I just put numbers to it). Why would you bring it up if you've so perfectly described why that wouldn't convince me (just in reverse terms)?
I don't know why you felt the need to post all of that if you don't want to discuss it.
You’re just a pawn for religious ideology. If you actually took the time to examine the complexity of this issue, you’d realize that even among religious groups, there is no consensus on when life begins. You’re parroting a narrative without acknowledging the bigger picture.
Here’s a quote from the Politico article:
So how did conservative Protestants, including evangelicals and charismatics like Parker, join with conservative Catholics to become the vanguard of anti-abortion politics in the United States? Why is Parker justifying the notion that frozen embryos are human beings by claiming, unequivocally, that life begins at conception?
To understand how nuanced this topic really is, I recommend looking at these:
Here it is with the religious bit. I've never used religious argumentation to justify my pro-life beliefs. By hiding behind ad-hominem, it make you look like you are afraid to engage me on terms of logic alone. It is a fallacy.
Did I ever say that there is a consensus on when life begins? The amount of people who believe in something doesn't make that thing right or wrong. That's also a fallacy.
This is funny, usually I'd get into an actual point by now, but your whole comment was fallacies. It's always you folk who belittle others who seem to lack the most in any sort of logical conversation. It is black and white, and I'll happily explain the black, and the white to you if you want. Just because people are confused (or maliciously ignorant) doesn't make the morality any less clear. If you don't think it's black and white, explain to me where you think the grey is, and why it is grey to you.
I'm not going to watch your videos. If you want me to spend the time watching them, then perhaps you can spend some time actually presenting any kind of logical thought or argument first. If your goal was just to convince me that people think different things on abortion, then congratulations, I've never been ignorant to that elementary thought. If your goal was to somehow use that to shake my logical understanding of abortion, then you have fallen into fallacy.
They’re articles. There is no scientific justification for life at conception. None. The argument is wholly religious and hiding that fact does nobody any good. The articles presented go into how the “pro-life” sides conception arguments have changed over time and how they have come to a head now. Read them. You might learn something about yourself
If you believe they have something actually new for me, share what you think. I’m not convinced enough to look.
Science tells us that at conception, a cell with a new combination of DNA is created. This cell then goes on to grow itself continuously until it becomes a fully formed adult organism. This is what I consider life. Science does support life at conception if you have the same understanding of life as I do.
And of course, that’s the issue. It’s a moral question, not a scientific one. Obviously the science fits with my moral view, and I’m sure that you have your own view where it fits with yours. At a purely objective level it’s certainly a biological cell with unique DNA that is growing. There is no clearer place to define the beginning of a new life. If you believe there is one, then go ahead and share it in your own words.
And cut it with the religious crap. That doesn’t matter here. You can use that line when you catch me making a religious argument.
The origins of arguments don’t matter, only their merit.
Science has a different definition for life, how does that fit with your view? The origins and context absolutely do matter especially if you are saying your argument isn’t religious. If the argument is moral then read the articles to see how those supposed morals have changed and conveniently so for political reasons
I’m not going to engage with you if you cannot express your own opinions. If I’m going to articles then you are cutting yourself out of the conversation. Either explain this definition of life that I supposedly don’t know about or cut out of the conversation. You refuse to actually say anything of your own in so many words.
I’m happy to express personal views but in terms of finding truth and coming to agreed consensus wouldn’t the opinion of experts or any data at all to back up our arguments be more appropriate?
I’d place a big bet that you’re not a developmental biologist, embryologist, geneticist, bioethicist, neuroscientist, reproductive physiologist, obstetrician, gynecologist, evolutionary biologist, medical ethicist, philosopher of science, molecular biologist, endocrinologist, or fertility specialist — so why then would your personal beliefs, especially those not backed by relevant data, matter whatsoever? I’m not appealing to authority as much as I’m recognizing that this “debate” isn’t novel and our views are not unique.
For the sake of defining your argument, and please let me know if I’m wrong:
- you believe that life begins at conception and therefore abortion is immoral at any point in a pregnancy?
— i.e in your view, consciousness, viability / dependency, personhood, success rate are all irrelevant
Thats why I'll rarely, if ever, try to debate an issue like this with someone who thinks differently about it. You can't debate if there's no agreed upon reality, they'll never make me see a fetus as a viable person and I'll never be able to convince them otherwise. It's right up there with Climate change; for me, there is no debate because it's really happening and it's man-made. Santa Claus isn't real, he doesn't exist, you can't convince me otherwise. God doesn't exist, you can't convince me otherwise. Trump lost the 2020 election, you can't convince me otherwise and so on and so on. So instead I'll vote and cancel out someone's silly way of thinking and be done with it, that's all we can do and hope that's enough.
I agree with almost everything. I could be convinced that God exists if anyone could produce irrefutable proof. I'm talking evidence that can be tested and repeated using the scientific method and cannot be explained in any other non-divine way. So far in all of human history, it's never been done.
Also, my grandfather was Santa Claus, and that's not up for debate. (Note, this is a joke based on my grandfather's extraordinary kindness and generosity of heart, and his long white beard.)
Everything else I agree with. I usually steer away from these topics for the same reason. There's just no civil debate if there aren't any agreed upon facts. I guess I was feeling argumentative today.
Conservative mindsets require local impact for them to conceptualize how it may affect them. As long as it never happens to their general family then its impossible to empathize.
Low IQ people are incapable of processing hypotheticals. What ifs don't work unless you have tangible, visible proof.
It’s not conservative, it’s Boomer mindset as a whole. That scumbag generation should be eradicated from the world. They’re cold, unempathetic, narcissistic scumbags who should be taken away and never heard from again.
Yep that’d be the better word, I was going for ‘unempathetic’ to use the language of the person I was replying to, but looks like they removed their comment
Same can be said for liberal mindsets, what if the government wants to unalive us all but must take our weapons first so we have zero chance of defending ourselves. What ifs don’t work unless you have tangible, visible proof.
And liberals seem to hyper imagine and exaggerate things and blame others when they are just being cheap or stupid.
I love that conservatives cant empathize with you sick fucks who want to just abort every inconvenience to you instead of taking responsibility and understand your own damn health care.
My dad started bitching about student loan forgiveness and I had to remind him that I would benefit from that. He was like "oh, umm, ok" and didn't even know what to say.
It is short sighted. I agree that they don't have empathy for most other people. But, the do still have empathy for their relatives. That is where they are short sighted, because they don't ever think it will happen to them.
I'm an obgyn sonographer in Texas. If a baby doesn't have a heartbeat it isn't considered an abortion and doesn't fall under the ban. They always try to use the least invasive procedure possible, meaning passing it on your own, then a pill that helps you pass it, then DNC. This was like this before the overturn of roe v Wade and it's the same after. This was just poor medical care.
There is literally no such thing as lifesaving abortion. If there is a complication where a mom could die even if her baby was below viability it is less risky for the mom to deliver the baby... Which is not the same as an abortion. Therefore the ban doesn't stop this. There is so much medical misinformation regarding this.
The worst thing I've seen is people going out of state to get a abortion and then not returning to that Dr for follow up care and then they have complications from the actual abortion, and seek care here where there is no records, or they don't seek care here at all because they are scared even though there is no reason to be.
Tell it to the guy in the video whose wife was denied a D&C at two separate hospitals?
The issue isn’t that it’s an abortion, it’s that the treatment for an abortion and a miscarriage is the exact same.
“The challenge is that the treatment for an abortion and the treatment for a miscarriage are exactly the same,” said Dr. Sarah Prager, a professor of obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Washington in Seattle and an expert in early pregnancy loss.
But interpretation of the laws is still causing challenges to care. At least several OB-GYNs in the Austin area received a letter from a pharmacy in late 2021 saying it would no longer fill the drug methotrexate in the case of ectopic pregnancy, citing the recent Texas laws, said Dr. Charlie Brown, an Austin-based obstetrician-gynecologist who provided a copy to KHN. Methotrexate also is listed in the Texas law passed last year.
This is why “exceptions” to the law are still so dangerous.
You’ve introduced confusion and fear of government punishment into care that fundamentally should only involve the doctor and the patient.
I think the husband needs to sue for medical malpractice, because there is no reason for it. Citing an OBGYN in Washington about the law here in Texas doesn't mean much to me when I work with over 16+ OBGYNs and have seen them do DNCs and prescribe Methotrexate just fine.
I understand you point, I'm just baffled, because no one should just let a woman bleed out after a miscarriage from fear of this law. It literally doesn't make any logical sense.
It’ll definitely start affecting most people when all of the good OB/GYNs leave the state…leaving all of the dregs behind. Then hospitals start announcing they are shutting down their labor & delivery wings because they don’t have enough OBs…or they fill them with fresh-out-of-school (cheap) PAs. It’s happening in Iowa right now.
Expect our already lousy maternal-mortality rate to get worse.
Not yet, but it's a matter of time. The only reason there's not been a doctor charged yet is because doctors are running scared and don't even want to get within earshot of these cases, much less the same room. Also, their insurers are likely telling them to avoid any kind of contact with these kinds of cases for liability reasons. Even though a doctor may be able to win in court, they're still going for the full criminal ride and that likely will end their career in the field of medicine. Letting one woman die to save hundreds or thousands of patients over a career is a terrible decision to have to make, but thanks to the GOP that's where we are now in this state. The fix is obvious, create strict medicine and science based definitions and rules and encode them in law, eliminate the ambiguity, but the GOP refuses to allow that to happen. The ambiguity is a feature and deliberate part of their law, and was specifically written to create this situation in the first place.
They would definitely get charged as murderers if they performed an abortion of the local Sheriff Cletus decides wasn't necessary or is running for re-election. Granbury is very much MAGAt country.
That is also considered an abortion. From elsewhere in the comments
The medical definition of abortion is the removal of pregnancy tissue, products of conception or the fetus and placenta (afterbirth) from the uterus. It makes no distinction if it is alive or dead or dying.
As you can imagine there are wide variety of definitions of abortion. That is one of them.
It seems to be pretty good as it also covers an ectopic pregnancy. Which while the embryo is currently viable, it will eventually die with the woman if an abortion is not performed.
Folks, thought i’d share this here. I feel like most people living in DFW are somewhat shielded from some things more rural texas experiences. Not sure if it’s accurate for all but certainly what i’ve seen.
I’m glad i’ll be here to vote and then making my way back home to the east next year. I thought I could make it work here in TX but my life nor my wife’s lives are worth sacrificing to try to change a state that isn’t getting it. Life here could’ve been beautiful.
This isn’t a political thing. This is a malpractice thing. My sister had the exact same situation in Houston two weeks ago and was treated with zero problems. Hospitals have an obligation to understand regulations and provide treatment in accordance with regs.
I'd say if you're keeping score with Reddit karma, your existence is pretty miserable, but that still doesn't answer my question. Is there like a ticket booth you traded your karma for like a college degree or a good job or something? I'm just trying to understand where the payoff is.
Because it is political you fckin moron. They literally made it against the law based on their feelings. WE ARE DYING. Just because republicans want to stick their noses in everyone’s business instead of minding their own
Did that explain it clearly or do I need to use smaller words?
Mad at the fact that this law is killing innocent women? Yes I fucking am. I daresay you came out of a vagina, so one would think you’d give a fuck about your own mother/sister/daughter, but clearly that is not the case.
Again, watch the video. I’m sick of wasting my time on idiots with their heads so far up their asses that they think this law isn’t fucking killing people when the video showed it you literally is.
I'm mad at this law, therefore it's not important that I tell the truth about the law because I'm sheathed in the light of righteousness? That sounds about right?
Get out of here with that nonsense. If you really think it's important, then don't support stories whose questionable facts undermine your purported beliefs that this is a bad law.
I watched the video. How do you think I could tell they went to a standalone ER? I went back to the original post, and surprise, it's a karma farming rage bait account (yep, not even posting their own video).
The more details you pick up on, the worse it gets. Like why was the video posted in the Corpus Christi subreddit, a city that is 5.5 hours away from Stephenville? They walked to another standalone ER in Granbury, which is even further away. How does that make sense?
At least be honest with yourself. You're not after facts, you're after that sweet self-righteous rage.
I mean, legally speaking, there is no abortion being performed if there is no heartbeat. So, the hospitals were acting twice shy when they had no reason for doing that. OP is blaming regulation in place of ignorance. Not making a judgment one way or the other, just saying that no law restricted the hospitals from acting appropriately in this case.
The TX abortion laws have made this within the scope of standard of care in Texas - not malpractice by definition (and their refusal to define at what point “the life of the mother” is endangered enough to perform a D&C will ensure that this continues)
Reread your torts. Medical malpractice is never within the scope of standard of care. And removing a baby without a heartbeat is by no means considered an abortion in any hospital. This is pretty cut and dried. People who are upset seem to be looking for something to be upset about.
Welcome to /r/dallas. I said the exact same thing. This is basically a clickbait drama post (the original poster's account is full of posts like this). Any attempt to ask basic questions or provide facts is going to be downvoted to oblivion.
True, I think hospital systems like Memorial Hermann and Methodist and other s in the Houston area are large enough to weather a legal shitstorm that some smaller hospitals cannot. In some cases, enough legal exposure will sink them leaving already underserved areas with 0 emergency care. In any case, the notion that we as a people have reverted to mid 1900 problems is grotesque. Finally, evangelicals got their dipshit that will do anything for a pat on the back and now here we are. They WILL NOT take credit for the pain, suffering and death they have already started to inflict, but hey, they get to feel good about themselves. Fucking vile religious zealots unlike those we fought in the Middle East for over 20 years. Now they are in our backyard with the power of the state behind them.
It’s so sad to think that the second largest state in the country has such draconian political perspective. What happened to the Texas of Anne Richards and Barbara Jordan???
What has happened? I have been here the whole time, so I’ll tell you -
Ann Richard’s only served one term, before she was beaten by GW Bush, the “Compassionate Conservative” (LOL). He did actually tried to solve Undocumented Immigration as President, but was shot down by the Extreme Right of the Party. It started with the Southern Strategy to take over the Republican Party by wooing the southern Baptists and Evangelicals, the politics of mean, starting around the time of Newt Gingrich, followed by the complete takeover of State politics by Republicans. They now totally control the State, and religious conservatives totally control the party.
They’ve gerrymandered everything to where very few districts have anything in common throughout, the Supreme Court has ruled that’s A-OK, but there are enough lazy would be Democrat non-voters who think their vote doesn’t matter so they don’t vote or are convinced that raising taxes for the rich will impact them because they mistakenly believe that they are rich or think they will be one day, or they believe the BS about immigrants taking their jobs (it’s not the ones here they need to worry about, it’s US Corporations legally outsourcing their jobs to other, cheaper countries they need to worry about, and Republicans love that) so they vote Republican at the Statewide and National level, that they continue to win.
Then, we have DJ Trump, who, after his Party blocked Obama’s final SCOTUS nominee, nominated 3 young Hard Right Conservative Justices, who could be on the Court the rest of my life. They have made it so that our Republicans who run Texas could pass a law so extreme that it’s literally threatening the lives of women because doctors fear going to jail for helping them. And now, no one seems interested in even passing a law clarifying that it would be okay to extract a dead fetus to help a woman’s health. This is because these laws are not for the good of the people of Texas, they are about taking away the agency of specific people they want to control.
They long for the days when white men ran the world, and they will pass laws for as long as they are in control and are allowed to do so by SCOTUS which further this objective. They want a small, wealthy upper class, and everyone else serving them in low wage jobs, with no possibility of obtaining the same. They will pretend to love upper class Blacks, Asians, and Latinos, for as long as necessary to obscure what they really want, and they’ll take it away for themselves once they figure out how.
Think I’m being extreme with this? They’ve done it before (think the Tulsa Black Wall Street race massacre). And, there are polls that say 24% of the population think Hitler “had some good ideas”, and I don’t think those are Democrats. They need to be stopped. I think there was hope that if Donald Trump went away, they’d go back to being moderate. No, he just gave them cover to do what they really want to do. As long as they win races,in gerrymandered districts with just enough minorities who tend to vote Democrat - they don’t do 95% Republican districts, they do enough to ensure they will win, like R 65% to D 35% - and to keep an adjacent district form a minority majority, they will continue to got extreme with impunity.
They will say that Democrats are the racist or bigoted Party. Because they wanted to keep slavery, and was the Conservative Party. It is true that it used to be. But, the Southern Strategy cemented the switch from Conservative to Progressive for Democrats and the opposite for Republicans, however, Republicanism under Trump is not really Conservative, it’s elitist, populist, and leans more and more to fascism (a State run by and for elites - again, for them, that means white males), with Trump declaring he’ll use the military to eliminate political rivals, and his Republican minions lying about it saying he is talking about illegal immigrants (Adam Schiff and Kamala Harris were mentioned. Are they undocumented immigrants?).
I think the “why” has gotten lost, be a we have gotten so concerned about sounding racist that we think speaking out against white people taking power in an illegal and immoral way can be taken as racism (I’m a white male, by the way), that we are too timid to say why and we, as a nation, are trained to revere people who have gotten wealthy, thinking they did it all themselves, not with the help of tax incentives, publicity built roads and infrastructure, or through forced labor, earlier in our history. We are not taught all that. That, and we are close to, if not already are, a minority majority country. They are scared to lose all the power they have had for the last 200 years. And fearful they’ll be treated as poorly as they have treated minorities and women.
Oh, and greed. Why else want lower taxes for billionaires? Who needs a billion or more, all to themselves? You can’t spend that much in your life. Even I wouldn’t say confiscate 90% of a person’s wealth who has $100 billion. And I need to work on that with therapy. It could be done through implementing thresholds to ownership, making a company go public at a certain point, and limiting ownership of shares to a single person. It doesn’t have to be taken by the government, which would be communism. But a billion sounds like a good upper limit of wealth. CEOs in 1965 had an average income of 15 times that of the lowest paid employee. In 2021, it had risen to 399 times. That’s a 1460% rise, if you don’t want to do the math. Their income grows 11% a year. Ours is like, 2%. They are taking credit from their boards for our work. Why is is it patriotic to revere that?
Sorry that this has gotten so long. I always write a lot, especially when worked up. But, you asked what happened. This is pretty much it, in short form, 😂
TLDR: Republicans have taken over state politics and cemented their power through gerrymandering and voting laws, and a Conservative SCOTUS. And now, the country is in danger of a fascist takeover by elites (rich white men). Women in danger from miscarriages will be child’s play if they manage it.
I don't blame you at all for leaving, I wish we could too. My husband is a civil engineer and would make significantly less than what he does in Texas if we moved. Job stability is also less as other states don't push roadway infrastructure as hard as Texas does.
I am in university currently for civil engineering and honestly, the job market I’ve heard is decent but if there is opportunity elsewhere, I might take it if the political climate doesn’t improve. This is coming from someone who has lived in DFW my whole life.
You're relocating back to where you came from because Texas has shitty politics? Uh, yeah, so did you not factor that into the decision before you moved here?
I don't know why you're glad you're voting here anyway, the system is a winner take all, so while it sounds good for upvotes, your vote is better used in a more competitive state.
This is dramatic clickbait of the grossest variety. There are any number of issues with the video in question (ex, why is the dude going to a standalone ER instead of an actual hospital). This dude is wasting hours when he could very easily have just gone to Fort Worth, which is driveable from Stephenville and Granbury.
I have two kids, and we had one miscarriage. Every time there was an issue with any pregnancy, we went to an actual hospital. It sounds like the guy's wife received a surgical intervention when she went to a facility that was able to provide that procedure.
Did you even watch the video? They weren’t turned away because the facilities couldn’t perform the procedure. The second place they went to was a hospital and would absolutely be able to perform a D&C. Sounds like you really don’t know anything about the procedure.
It was a standalone ER, a D&C is almost never done at standalone ER (and if you watch the video, they allege the doctor wouldn't prescribe her anything on her second visit). You can look up the facility (I did), it's basically a doc in a box. If you actually have experience a miscarriage, you'd probably know you don't even visit a standalone ER for that issue, and they certainly aren't doing a D&C. Other commenters with kids have also pointed this out.
The second place was not a hospital. It is a standalone ER affiliated with a hospital. The place that ultimately did it was an actual hospital.
Numerous other inconsistencies and red flags in the video. Ex, why is it in the Corpus Christi subreddit? Each facility they go to they're closer to Fort Worth, and the first standalone ER is in Stephenville (not close to Corpus).
So you came down here to vote to change the laws in a state that isn’t yours, and that you won’t live in…and feel good about that.
I agree with you on the reproductive rights issue - women should have the right to choose. However, I don’t agree with your tactics of changing laws in states where you won’t reside.
As somebody who lives in the city, you are indeed correct. I was not super aware of what goes on in the rest of the state because I’m definitely in an urban bubble. Education on the upcoming election made me realize that indeed, yes, this state is fucked up.
i spent 7 years working at corner emergency rooms such as Surepoint. Working at one through covid broke my soul and i'm still recovering. they are not to be trusted. You could get a doc who's been doing ER's for 20 years or you could get a doc who is googling answers.
As a man, I did, and still do. Even without children myself, it's insane to want to allow anyone to experience this. Obviously not my wife, but I can extend that empathy to literally any woman I know.
It's the biggest reason we left TX as well. I don't plan on having children, but accidents happen, we're not actively trying to avoid it. I would be absolutely terrified for 9 months that there'd be complications - and again, I have enough empathy to realize it would be so much worse for my wife. Even without complications, the stress of worrying that there could be, and knowing that Texas would probably recommend she just try dying a little first would be horrible.
We marched for the Roe protests. I marched. I saw a lot of men there. We were all ripshit pissed. It's just not enough, and I was sick of worrying about it. It's not fair to women, and I hope it changes. I just can't put my family in that kind of stress and risk any longer.
Never liked living in Dallas Tx, it’s a shit show in my opinion & the only reason that’s stopping me from moving out is because I don’t have enough money nor a driver’s license to drive far from Tx
So she is anti abortion after she experienced an abortion and you with zero experience can not understand her feelings. That makes sense. Maybe try to gain an actual experience before you judge her.
I’ve no doubt it was, and that choice was 100% hers to make. But to turn the tables on other women who may face that same difficult choice, is not fair nor reasonable either.
It’s not likely she sees it that way. To be transparent I am pro choice but anti-abortion. I don’t like it, I think it’s wrong…but I believe women should have autonomy over their own bodies. Everyone makes their choices in life.
That being said, she may think no woman should have to go through it, the aftermath, the trauma. Not a normal way of dealing with it, but it may be what keeps her sane. Who knows.
“Double down” is a surprisingly common response in a situation like this. It’s guilt, redirected, placing the blame elsewhere.
Not saying it’s what happened to your sister, not enough detail to go on.
But what happens sometimes to other is:
A person holds some “pro life” beliefs. Maybe strongly, maybe barely. But some thoughts that abortion is wrong.
Then they experience the need for an abortion. Maybe they feel conflicted about it. Maybe not. Either way, they go through with it.
Now we have a problem. We have a mismatch between actions and thoughts/beliefs. This is called cognitive dissonance. It is very uncomfortable. The brain seeks to bring things into alignment. We can’t change the action- it is done. The only choice is to change the thoughts/beliefs.
Changing the thoughts/beliefs to be in alignment with the action is the hardest path. It means admitting you were wrong before the action. This is nearly impossible for some people.
Much easier is to decide you were right the whole time, and it’s someone else’s fault that you took the out of alignment action. You had no choice! You were duped! It was too easy! It should be banned! You shouldn’t have been allowed to do the thing you wanted to do! It’s their fault!
Furthermore, to really “prove” it, the person doubles down and becomes even more very vocally against abortion or whatever it is. So that others don’t make their same “mistake.” So that it is harder to do, so that others won’t be “tempted” like they were.
Again, don’t know if this is what happened to your sister.
Maybe she was pro choice to start. But the end result would be the same- displaced guilt, placing blame externally.
The original post in /r/CorpusChristi is apparently just karma farming Ryan Hamilton's story from June.
No D&C was needed or performed at any of the facilities. His wife was prescribed misoprostol at the first facility, which didn't perform the D&C, and the second facility made the same decision. The third facility just gave her fluids and confirmed the drugs worked.
She was given fluids at the third hospital, and they confirmed she passed the pregnancy with the drugs she was given at the first facility. You can read between the lines and understand why he isn't suing either of the first two hospitals because their recommended course of treatment did, in fact, work.
The entire story is a problematic example if you're trying to say the Texas ban on abortion is bad (which I, personally, think it is).
From the article, A D&C would’ve prevented her bleeding out, there was no reason other than fear (as the article claims) to not perform one.. The point of the post (I gathered) is that the law incites fear from medical professionals who shouldn’t have to face the possibility of losing their livelihood to treat their patients.
I wrote this and remembered I don’t like arguing with internet strangers. Will keep since written. Thanks for sharing again.
I'm not sure you're getting the complete details stated the article. It says there were no places to refer the couple to and that the course of treatment she was given is generally effective. The physician (there were two quoted in the article) was not stating that the doc in the box or the Granbury facility should have performed the D & C. The issue was underdosing here.
The point of the post doesn't matter if it's not accurate, and in fact, I think it undermines the point you're trying to make. If your point is "Texas bans abortion, it hurts women" then just say that. We all know it's true. There's no reason to post some (possibly ripped off) story from r/CorpusChristi, which again is not close to the area this story takes place in.
The ban on abortion in Texas is bad, it's Reddit, I think we can all agree on that. It's always been bad in Texas. It's a shame Democrats on a national level sacrificed women's healthcare so Ginsburg could continue being a girlboss into her 80s, and then botched a pretty winnable presidential campaign.
Unfortunately, no amount of voting in Texas can fix those problems. I would advise anyone moving to the state to carefully consider how much they think our shitty politics might personally affect them.
Man, my wife is pregnant and we’re closely approaching the due date. I am TERRIFIED something like this will happen. We both vote, but that wasn’t enough to keep access to safe abortions in the event we needed one. If the worst were to happen, I’m unsure what I’d do. But I certainly don’t want my wife to die because some religious nuts believe their personal faith should be law.
I'm also in the Dallas area (for now), and I work in pregnancy/labor/birth/postpartum as a care provider. Not only is this happening, but I had a colleague share a horrible story as it was unfolding about a mom having a late (2nd trimester) miscarriage. Throughout the miscarriage she was cared for by a state licensed midwife, since midwives are trained to manage miscarriages and have access to the medications that are needed just in case. The family wanted to bury their baby. When they took the fetal remains to a mortician, the mortician called the police and this mom was nearly arrested and accused of willfully terminating her pregnancy. A CPS case was opened and the family is STILL dealing with the nightmare of a legal system. The state wants to put her in jail because she had a miscarriage and lost her very wanted baby. All this despite the midwife voluntarily (and of course with client consent) providing impeccable care records (charts) for the duration of the pregnancy. Had the midwife not had her legal documents in order, she also would have been pursued criminally.
In Texas, if a person is having a miscarriage or suspects one, please please please call a midwife. Midwives are super huge proponents for proactive reproductive healthcare, and will be much more likely to have a ton of actually helpful and beneficial resources that can be utilized such as funeral homes that provide services without calling the cops, bereavement programs, referrals to therapists that specialize in pregnancy loss, etc. Midwives also have a layer of protection with legal health records that can help be a buffer between doctors that are terrified to treat miscarriages until things like is shown in this video. what I've said only applies to midwives licensed by the state of Texas.
I think this is bullshit lol. I had a missed miscarriage, and they asked if I wanted to pass the baby naturally or take misoprostol to help induce the passing of the baby on my own. I chose D&C and got it scheduled. Then they didn't end up getting the baby out all the way and I was passing clots, so they then prescribed misoprostol... Never ran into any issues..... This has NOTHING to do with the abortion ban.
Ok, you are a dumbass if it was as bad as you say, then why did you continue to go to hospitals in small podunk towns? OP was an hour away from Ft. Worth, why did he not take his wife there where there were more competent doctors?
I watch this and wonder how it's even considered an abortion if there isn't a heart beat. How can somebody even argue that an abortion would have been performed in this case? Awful, awful, awful.
I grew up in Brownwood, close to Stephenville. The rural Texans are the ones who vote the most for these laws, but also will eventually suffer from them. By that time it’s too late. It’s so freaking heartbreaking. 💔
I grew up in Granbury. That hospital is atrocious and the town is predominantly older conservatives. Nothing about this story surprises me but damn it’s so heart breaking. It just shouldn’t be like that.
I live in Granbury currently and they misdiagnosed my pulmonary embolism for a muscle sprain😭thankfully I went to Weatherford but the hell with this city😭😭
It was a life and death situation after the bad experience we had with our son who had a seizure. The pathetic-ass doctor even told us that just cause he’s some hillbilly doc, that he wouldn’t urge us to take him to cook children’s. My son had another seizure less than 12 hours after that. Thankfully, we went regardless but the hell with those physicians and nurses who praise the hospital😭
Omg I’m glad you’re here too! Hopefully they prescribed you some anticoagulants that aren’t injectables! That’s what mine have been so far but they have saved my life! It’s been almost a year this thanksgiving and was caused due to my pregnancy. Thankfully nothing happened to my baby but still. I never, ever want to go through that pain and would rather give birth without medication over and over than feel that. That’s what made my husband get a vasectomy. Hell to the no, never want to have that again.
This was all a month after my 1 year old son at the time, had a seizure and they said nothing was wrong with him. Thank god we listened to our guts and took him to cook children’s cause he had another seizure less than 12 hours after the 1st. Stupid doctor even told us “I’m not trying to sound like a hillbilly doctor but you don’t need to go to cooks!” So being there for a suspicion of my embolism was literally a life and death situation. Lmao I hate this hospital, so I don’t mind driving an extra 45 minuets - 1 hour.
I went to school in Stephenville, and the only things I heard about the hospital in S'ville or Granbury, was that you were better off going to Fort Worth.
Yep. Fort worth has a great hospital for pregnant folks with doctors and midwives that collaborate together, and they actually seem to give a shit about pregnant folks. Granbury and Stephenville are way out there. I have seen clients who will travel from S'ville to N FW (it's like a 2 hr drive) to see a prenatal care provider.
It’s not even that the hospitals are shitty (though that might also be true). This is happening all over the US in states where abortion has been banned. Doctors can lose their license to practice for performing life-saving abortion care.
We agree. In this sub and r/Texas there are discussions regarding good doctors leaving Texas. Quality of care in a global sense will continue to decline if doctors fear for their careers over this.
I tried going to school in Stephenville and skipped most of the semester just because the people there were so violently close-minded, I had multiple threats against my life from total strangers just for being queer. I wish people in rural areas would just get it together
Went to school in Stephenville. I remember all of the very minimal pride stuff that was put up on campus (just ribbons around trees) being pulled down a shredded. I also remember getting an email sent to the whole student body that was literally just, “you cannot harass your black peers”. Going from Dallas to there for school was insane.
I was a Republican until Trump. Please, men, wake up! Let's protect the women (and children) in our lives. Religion can be practiced individually and should not be forced upon others. Letting women suffer like this is simply inhuman and cruel. Let abortion be between her and her doctor, like it should. Republicans were for family once. It is no longer. Let's force them to go back to their roots by voting every one of them out!
Correct, but providers are denying treatment as if they’re the same because of their fears surrounding the abortion ban. Pro lifers seem to think that isn’t actually happening and using the difference between the two to sort their break from reality.
I don’t think this is happening. If you read up thread there are commenters who are ob/gym practitioners who say anyone having a miscarriage is getting care. That is standard.
The argument that doctors are afraid doesn’t add up. Doctors make life and death (hopefully lifesaving) decisions every day. They face malpractice every single day. The Texas law is clear that medically necessary post miscarriage care is distinct from abortion. Any doctor who deals with women’s health would know this.
This video is suspect, for several reasons. Why didn’t he take her to the hospital and not urgent care? Urgent care is always going to defer to the person’s specialist. And they are never going to do a surgical procedure like a d&c. Where was her ob/gyn anyway? A lot of things don’t add up in this story. Where is the wife? It would be much more credible if the story came from her.
This is what I was thinking. It feels like a video created to try and drive the political landscape using fear. There is no national abortion ban on any docket - seems fear based propaganda.
The original post in r/CorpusChristi is apparently just karma farming Ryan Hamilton’s story from June.
No D&C was needed or performed at any of the facilities. His wife was prescribed misoprostol at the first facility, which didn’t perform the D&C, and the second facility made the same decision. The third facility just gave her fluids and confirmed the drugs worked.
She was given fluids at the third hospital, and they confirmed she passed the pregnancy with the drugs she was given at the first facility. You can read between the lines and understand why he isn’t suing either of the first two hospitals because their recommended course of treatment did, in fact, work.
The entire story is a problematic example if you’re trying to say the Texas ban on abortion is bad (which I, personally, think it is).
If i had a wife, someone i cared about more than anyone else in this world, id have held those doctors at gunpoint while they did the operation to save her life. Fuck all this bullshit, so many suffering women getting blamed like its their fault their bodies decided to keep a dead fetus is absolutely disgraceful behavior.
Fucking horrible that we live in the US and this is allowed to happen.
The supporters of these policies wouldn't hesitate to get similar care for their livestock, were one of their cows in a similar state, and it'd be readily provided.
I don't think most people who think about this for more than 2 seconds disagree that there should be exceptions in the law. I'm sure there already are a few but it sounds like they need to be ironed out and defined a little better.
ASSUMING any of this is true/accurate, this story has NOTHING to do with the state law.
OP basically went to an urgent care center first where they can’t really do much and was likely told to follow up with their regular OBGYN. I HIGHLY doubt an urgent care center would actually prescribe misoprostol on their own anyway.
Assuming story is correct, then if patient showed up a the Lake Granbury Medical Center, then they should have been seen by a gynecologist who would be able to evaluate the need for a D&C to remove the non-viable conceptus, especially if the patient was looking like they were becoming septic.
If that didn’t happen, then that would be more of a medical error than a problem with state policy.
This is pure propaganda and elements of it aren’t believable in the first place, like an urgent care center or stand-alone ER prescribing misoprostol.
The original post in r/CorpusChristi is apparently just karma farming Ryan Hamilton’s story from June.
No D&C was needed or performed at any of the facilities. His wife was prescribed misoprostol at the first facility, which didn’t perform the D&C, and the second facility made the same decision. The third facility just gave her fluids and confirmed the drugs worked.
She was given fluids at the third hospital, and they confirmed she passed the pregnancy with the drugs she was given at the first facility. You can read between the lines and understand why he isn’t suing either of the first two hospitals because their recommended course of treatment did, in fact, work.
The entire story is a problematic example if you’re trying to say the Texas ban on abortion is bad (which I, personally, think it is).
A d&c is not an abortion and is still legal and commonly performed in Texas for non-viable pregnancies. IF the provided information is true, it is negligence and malpractice, nothing more. This has nothing to do with Texas laws and is propaganda and misinformation. -RN in TX
The law allows for life-saving medical care, if that care failed to be provided it isn't the state's fault, it's the practitioner's. I don't know since when it became controversial that doctors should be made to make judgement calls on what medical care is necessary and to be held responsible for them. If anyone should be able to, it's them. And if those judgement calls somehow were impossible to make (they aren't), then we shouldn't be taking a life in uncertainty.
All of those doctors that you want to throw under the bus are worried what the 10th dentist will say in court.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=The%20Tenth%20Dentist
Doctors have already been responsible for their medical decisions forever. They’ve always seemed to manage with the tenth dentist, this is no different.
If I shoot someone randomly, I get hit with a felony. If I shoot someone who is shooting at others, I am exonerated for doing the right thing.
These doctors are taking a life to save a life. It’s a very serious issue. A serious decision should come with serious consequences, because if the procedures is unnecessary, we end up with someone dead for no reason.
Someone has to take up the burden of making this decision. The only people qualified are doctors. If we are going to accept abortive care, then we have to do it in a way that always tries to save the most lives, and only doctors can confirm that.
Great speech. I remain unconvinced that doctors should be thrown under the bus, and unconvinced that so-called pro-life voters are looking out for Texas women at one of the most vulnerable times in their lives.
Because of the failure of the doctors to recognize the life threatening situation. The law allows for an abortive procedure in this case. It was entirely the failure of the medical professionals to recognize the necessity of the procedure.
Idk, maybe the part of Texas I live at is different but I was given the choice of having an abortion at the five or six month point because of health issues I and/or my baby could have. I did a genetics test and found I was a carrier of a genetic disorder and was given the option to test my baby and decide what to do then. I’m sure there are horror stories of people who don’t have the same experience, but I don’t think it’s like that for everyone. I’m guessing where you live in Texas has a part to do with it though
Blue up&down the ballot, and get as many Texans to do the same. We need to show up in numbers to change our govs
I added articles here explaining what has happened after RoevWade was overturned. There are no excuses. Texas Republicans at every turn have created this mess. It DOESN'T have to be this way. Its fucking healthcare for a reason! Pay attention, and make them pay at the ballot box! Vote Against them up&down the ballot!
https://www.reddit.com/r/texas/s/AiDl8yTT68
I didn't even include the bill the Texas Republicans passed in both the House & Senate Legislature that made bounty hunting reward for women who got abortions, and made women getting healthcare a crime for both the woman and the healthcare providers
This is so fucked up... why can we not have common sense abortion laws??? WHY DO WE HAVE TO HAVE ALL OR NOTHING??? Why are we limiting doctors from doing their jobs properly by ridiculous laws that prevent proper medical care?
I'm just saying, if my wife is ever in a situation like this- I'm going to be putting a lot of these malignant tumors cosplaying in lab coats "close enough to death" to finally receive treatment themselves. Is that gonna help the situation? No, but that woman saved my life and I'll be damned if this backwards ass state government stops me.
Republican lawmakers in Texas will NEVER allow abortion to reach the ballot. We have to vote them out starting next month with Ted Cruz. Vote Allred. Vote blue down the ballot.
This is the kind of shit that scares the living daylights out of me, tbh.
The second (and last) pregnancy I had ended in a D&C after finding out there was no heartbeat from the baby (I was approx 10 weeks pregnant) and it hadn't grown since my previous scan two weeks prior.
My doctor sent me home to miscarry but when that didn't happen (because my body is an asshole at doing things it's SUPPOSED to do all on its own), I had to have a D&C.
Part of me is SO so glad this happened when it did (about 11 years ago) rather than now. And I'm terrified that even though I'm probably pretty close to perimenopause (I'm 46) that I'll get pregnant (even though I'm on birth control) and it won't go well.
This is exactly what still happens here in Texas. Nothing has changed regarding this. A DNC after miscarriage is not an abortion and has nothing to do with abortion. It is perfectly legal in Texas to get an DNC after miscarriage in Texas. Why is everyone so confused about this?
Still scares the shit out of doctors to do them, though, apparently. Because (at least from my understanding) it's functionally the same thing as an abortion, except on a live fetus instead of a dead one.
And it still scares me that if I were to get pregnant and something were to go wrong, I wouldn't be able to get the care I need.
I understand your concern, and you of course have every right to feel that way. I currently work with 16 different obgyns in the DFW area, and none of them have had any concerns about performing the procedure when dealing with a miscarriage.
I had a D&C in Plano, TX recently after a miscarriage with zero issues. This wasn't an abortion case. This is a miscarriage that required a D&C. This is gross malpractice.
I understand the "pro-life" position that the fetus has a right to life. I disagree with it, but there's a rational flow where "fetus has right to life, fetus' right to life outweighs mother's right to bodily autonomy, no abortion". I'm sure someone just got reflexively irate and wants to clap back with some argument about "forcing people to donate kidneys" or something, but... don't. I already don't agree with this stance, I'm just saying it's at least logically consistent. Any downstream weirdness is outside the bounds of the discussion given that I already yield the point.
But a miscarriage no longer has a right to life. He's dead, Jim. It's no longer about right-to-life, now it's about some weird punishment fetish to the woman.
I don't get it. Like it's just cruelty, and I don't understand. I can understand people who are all about saving the "poor little babies", though you'd think they'd also push for better support for them after they're born (and some do, but not nearly enough). But in the case of a miscarriage, when a doctor has determined that the fetus is nonviable or already dead... what's the purpose? Because it seems like the cruelty is the point, but they get angry when you say that.
I know cruelty is the point. But as someone who doesn't find cruelty entertaining, I just... don't get it.
The problem with this law is that anyone can come in after the abortion is done and argue that the conditions for a legal abortion were not met. The law doesn't take the DRs word as final because if it did every abortion would be legal. Every pregnancy poses a threat to the mother's life and long-term health. The law is garbage and killing women. The people voting for and defending such laws are garbage and killing women.
It is what the law says. I think you are misunderstanding it.
Sec. 170A.004. CRIMINAL OFFENSE. (a) A person who violates Section 170A.002 commits an offense.
This one line opens a DR performing any abortion to being accused of criminal activity. All that needs to happen is for someone to argue that the mother would have lived without the abortion.
Arguing about conditions doesn’t matter. Court would decide any outcome if needed. And no cases have occurred in the courts yet for emergency procedures. The fear mongering bs has been way out of hand.
Hospitals run on money—money they do not want to spend in court. You admit to the possibility of a lawsuit by using "yet" in your argument. Women hating whackjobs are constantly bringing lawsuits for one reason or another over abortion. One of the whackjobs, Attorney General of Texas Ken Paxton is suing the federal government for the right to access patients' out-of-state medical records. I don't have to fearmonger when the people I am arguing about are monsters.
If you read it you would know that law provides right to exercise care in certain conditions. And those conditions fit the subject matter of the thread.
If you read it you would know that those rights depend on a hypothetical situation and the interpretation of what “reasonable” means. Cases of women having a medical need for abortions have already gone to court to test how strong those rights are, and courts have ruled against women every time. If you read it, you would also know that there is no legal mechanism that would let a doctor know how their decision would be interpreted in court. If you read it, you would know that if a court decided to second guess a doctor, then that doctor wouldn’t just lose their license in Texas, they would be a felon and subjected to financial ruin. Whether you read it or not, tragedies like the one that OP posted are happening. Whether you read it or not, this is the law that causes these tragedies to happen. Whether you read it or not, courts confirmed that these tragedies are acceptable based on this law. And if Texans don’t use the power of their vote to fix this, then they will continue to be complicit in these tragedies, and even worse tragedies.
Did you read it? Because this is as obvious a false flag as there ever has been.
Doctor sues over an issue that hadn't been raised, intentionally doesn't put forward any relevant argument to win the dog whistle law suit and the court specifically states preauthorization was never necessary.
It should also be noted Texas has repeatedly fought to not allow emergency exceptions, and with the Supreme Court packed with far right extremist judges they are winning as of now. https://apnews.com/article/supreme-court-emergency-abortion-texas-bf79fafceba4ab9df9df2489e5d43e72
It is sad that this happened. But, blame the medical people who did not take care of the woman, not the Texas abortion law. The baby’s was dead. It had no heartbeat. It was not an abortion decision.
How do they call this anything but propaganda when it concludes with a statement about voting.
One of the things that bothers me the most is no one is protesting in the streets or at all. At least not that I have seen.
Women are dying & babies are suffering - yet I haven’t seen nor heard a goddamn peep.
Thank you for posting this heartbreaking story. I don’t live in TX but I do business there. Me & my partners are currently discussing ending all trade with the state because of this barbaric ban.
This shit is real and I went through it with my wife in San Antonio. This party of Trump is no longer the GOP. It is a hate filled draconian party that will inflict suffering on millions if given the opportunity. VOTE
I have a hereditary illness I was born with. A blood, heart and lung disease. I want to have children, but I’m afraid I will die in the state of Texas because my pregnancy would be considered very high risk. I feel that the state of Texas would rather see me and unborn child dead, if anything were to go wrong, and there is a high chance of that happening. I’m am terrified of the state of Texas. This video just confirmed that no woman should have children in Texas. Thank you so much for making and showing us this video. This confirms everything I’ve felt. I’m from Massachusetts, but I’ve lived in Dallas for 30 years, and I feel that New England is the only safe space to have children in right now. The south feels a little too “Government or Nothing”, and none of them give a damn.
If you have so many issues that is putting you in risk why are you even wanting to have kids? Especially when you are genetically hereditary issues that will also pass on to your kids. Isn’t that a bit selfish?
The pro-life voter is a thoughtless heartless coward whose only motivation is imposing their will on others.
And damn any doctor unwilling to stand up against legislation that deliberately puts people in life threatening situations. Help or, close your your damn doors and go practice in some other state.
Vote red and you'll be left for dead. Full stop. Fight for your rights because if you won't fight for your neighbors (women, trans people, minorites, etc), you're next. I promise you.
I've told my wife we will not be having children in this state due to the ban. I know it's a low risk, but I'm not willing to take the chance that something goes wrong.
Love that you shared this but this is definitely getting taken down for not being specific to DFW. It sucks because people here need to see this but it’ll happen regardless.
This breaks my heart. I hate that this is where we're at. I'm pro-choice and at the very fucking minimum, the mother's life should be tantamount to the potential life in the womb. Fuck that noise about the sanctity of life if you're willing to let a woman die.
I am so sorry this is the experience this couple had. Going through a miscarriage is terrible enough, but the care she received just made everything worse.
My circumstances are extremely different, but I had a PPH at home after the birth of my first child; I lost enough blood that I did black out twice before I could receive medical care. Losing blood like that is scary, and I had anxiety for a long time afterwards, which I am sure this woman will experience as well. I really hope we can vote in politicians that care about women's health in November.
Nickersatnight@reddit
4 days a you couldn’t go a state or 2 away shit the fuck up
EstablishmentMean300@reddit
Texas republicans hate women. Nothing will change until Wheelie McGee and his cronies are voted out. Texas deserves better. I feel so terrible for anyone who has to go through this.
Correct-Barnacle-755@reddit
Sounds like it's the doctors fault rather than texas laws
stinky_pee@reddit
My story started out similarly to this. Almost 4 years ago, I had an ultrasound done and my baby’s heartbeat was slow and unexpected to last much longer, so we scheduled a follow-up a week later. By then, it was no longer beating. My doctor told me to wait and see if I’d have a natural miscarriage. It took about a week, but it finally happened. But I kept bleeding for the next month until I could finally get another ultrasound scheduled where my doctor said I’d had an incomplete miscarriage. Luckily for me, this was before the abortion ban so I got to have a D&C to clean out the remainder. I don’t know what would have happened if this had happened recently. My heart goes out to women who have to not only go through the pain of losing their babies, but also have to experience being turned around when they’re in need of medicine or procedures.
AV710@reddit
Texas it is time to vote out Republicans who have consistently and actively successfully proven they do not care about you or your rights.
How many women have to die? How many children have to suffer heartbreak? How many have to fear for their lives everyday, praying they aren't pregnant in a state like Texas. It's now or never.
CoverFire-@reddit
I have no problem with a woman receiving any and all medical treatments that are required in this situation and am shocked that she didn't get it. As a father who was been in those situations with my wife where she was giving birth, I'm sure thus was a terrifying experience for her to be bleeding without getting assistance.
That does not mean I approve of aborting a healthy living baby however.
TheMcMcMcMcMc@reddit
It sounds like this is the first time you are hearing about these experiences. Might seem like a one off thing, an unfortunate mistake, but this began happening as soon as Roe was overturned two years ago. Multiple women even tried to get courts to approve the medical care they need so doctors could operate without fear of prosecution, but Paxton fought them and won.
CoverFire-@reddit
I'm not against life saving procedures for the mother at all. I also don't see why they would refuse treatment here if the baby was already dead. That doesn't fall under "abortion" for me. The baby is gone at that point.
OmenQtx@reddit
The law doesn't make that distinction. Insurance doesn't make that distinction. Medical terminology doesn't make that distinction. An abortion is the removal of a pregnancy, whether it is currently viable or not.
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
This is great to say, but the reality is a miscarriage and removal of tissue afterwards is not an abortion. The fetus has already died and most times has left the body. A d&c is usually done to remove remaining tissue that does not pass naturally. In Texas this is a common procedure after a miscarriage
shinywtf@reddit
Removal of fetal tissue is called an abortion. It does not make any distinction between alive and dead or dying.
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
Please read the law and not the dictionary.
shinywtf@reddit
The law can call things whatever they want, it doesn’t change the medical definition of procedures. And if the law defines something differently than the medical definition of something, that is either nefarious on purpose, or negligent.
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
Since we are discussing the law, the legal definition is paramount. Of course each state will state the definition in the law or subsequent legal proceedings.
Legal definition https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/abortion
shinywtf@reddit
If the state banned let’s say root canals, but defined them differently than the procedure dentists are familiar with, you don’t think that might cause some confusion at the dental office?
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
No doctors are performing miscarriages.
TheMcMcMcMcMc@reddit
It doesn’t sound like the officials in your government are listening to you.
Narrow-Ad-4756@reddit
That judgment call should be between a doctor and the patient.
CoverFire-@reddit
What judgement call? I'm not against a women getting help in this situation at all.
Narrow-Ad-4756@reddit
The issue is that the threat of losing a license (and their livelihood) due to government interference in doctor-patient decisions under the statute stifles legitimate, necessary medical care. So, what constitutes a “healthy, living baby” in your opinion? 5, 10 weeks when many women don’t even know they are pregnant?
CoverFire-@reddit
I'm not here to get into the specifics since I'm sure we will disagree across the board on it. Funny enough five weeks sounds reasonable to me since that's when you can detect the heart beat. So we can just go with that.
8020GroundBeef@reddit
Ok so my wife had a miscarriage around eight weeks. She had to have a D&C around 12 weeks because the medications didn’t fully work.
If you ban abortions after 5 weeks, you’re saying that my wife couldn’t get a life saving treatment and might have been left infertile or dead.
So people like you are arbitrarily setting rules now, making it so doctors can’t help people in need. People who WANT CHILDREN are being hurt by this too. These laws are incredibly broad on purpose.
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
No. Because she had a miscarriage. She wouldn’t have been denied a d&c.
shinywtf@reddit
Have you not noticed that women are indeed being denied d&c? You know, like in the original post this thread is discussing?
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
Have you any proof? This woman in this story had a miscarriage. It appears it was determined she didn’t need a d&c. It’s very suspicious that the woman’s ob isn’t part of this story. And that the husband didn’t take her to a hospital.
What would have happened in a true case is the woman would call her doctor and the doctor would have her go to a hospital.
If it’s true as this man is telling it, she has a lawsuit for malpractice. If you read the law, it doesn’t apply to her situation. This is a malpractice case.
CoverFire-@reddit
Did you read my previous comments? If the baby is dead, no heartbeat, or the mother has had a miscarriage they deserve all of the medical treatments necessary. I don't consider those abortions at all - the baby is gone. There is no life there to "abort".
As I said - I'm against aborting health babies. Not cases where the mothers life is in danger.
Subject-Lettuce-2714@reddit
You’re still attempting to impose your will on others when you can’t demonstrate consistent or objective criteria that would suggest that fetuses garner the same consideration as a human that’s already born. The line isn’t black or white. It’s quite grey, especially between the last trimester and the actual birth.
What defines humanity over other animals is personhood. Personhood is highly correlative, if not directly linked to, conscious/sentient experience. A heart beat and brain activity cannot prove that fetuses experience these phenomenon like we do. The most we will ever compromise is to agree to disagree.
But you want to impose laws that ARE harmful to many women because of this disagreement. Even though America should pride itself on the excess liberty attributed to its citizens. You want to restrict people from making a particular choice because of your opinion.
A large majority of people (even pro choice) oppose late term abortions. The only late term abortions are either extreme edge cases that are deemed medically necessary. Or by an EXTREMELY small minority of people who do not have a moral qualm with late term abortions. But those people are such a minority that any legislation seeking to ban that behavior will only lead to an increase in harm done to everyone else, at a much greater scale (several orders of magnitude) than any harm that would be prevented.
But you people see these stories from OP, thinking they are the exception, when in reality, they are the standard for women who are in danger from a pregnancy.
CoverFire-@reddit
My friend it goes both ways here. You have to recognize the fact that just as many people are against abortion as for it. Neither side can win here without the others feeling like losers. Honestly I would Love a National ban on abortion (except for cases for the mothes life being in danger, rape, or incest).
However, even though I disagree with your description on when the baby is considered a person and thus has the same right as us all - the right to Life and Liberty - I recognize that you should have a voice in this matter.
Which is why I think this issue going back to the States is the best for both sides. Because now people can vote on it and not have the issue decided by 9 black robs in Washington.
I 100% disagree with Ohios take on abortion and how the people voted...but the people voted. That's what they wanted.
I can guarantee you my feelings for protecting the unborn are just as strong as your feelings for letting mothers abort them.
Subject-Lettuce-2714@reddit
You’re wrong. More people support pro choice. The difference is that pro choice people don’t want to force people to get an abortion. We leave it up to the person. You want to enforce your decision on others.
CoverFire-@reddit
I would dare say that the human life that gets aborted would very much rather live then die.
baphometsbike@reddit
Most of the time when fetuses are aborted, they aren’t fully developed, let alone have conscious thought, so they don’t rather anything
CoverFire-@reddit
Listen to what you just said. "Most of the time" - so there are fully developed babies aborted. Got it.
As a father of two I could never agree with that thought process.
Subject-Lettuce-2714@reddit
The late term abortions are extremely rare. Almost all of them are done out of medical necessity.
The others that aren’t you can disagree with, and I would to for the most part. And perhaps it shouldn’t be allowed. But passing legislation to ban abortions as to prevent that from happening will end up causing more harm to others than it would prevent.
If law was passed that was so niche as to specifically restrict late term abortion. Then the same stories would appear where late term abortions would be denied until the mother is close to death, similar to the story presented by OP.
You think it’s ok for states to decide whether abortion is allowed or not. But you don’t want abortion to be allowed. So you’re just ok with some states being able to ban it. By your original logic, why stop at the state level. Why not municipal. Or local county government? Why stop there? Why not let the decision be made by each neighborhood instead. Or wait, why not let each person decide?
CoverFire-@reddit
Im not ok with some states being able to ban it - I'm ok with people being able to vote on it. Whether I agree or disagree on the decision doesn't matter here.
The difference between you and me is where/when we place Human Life Value on the Baby. I believe, as do Millions of other people, that it's Value as a Human Llife begins at inception. Abortion, in my view, is honestly just plain Evil and falls in line with Eugenics.
That being my stance, which you may even think extreme even though I think yours is too, will never ever change. It won't. We aren't debating on economic policy here, this is a hard standing Moral issue.
Neither of us are going to change our minds - we really aren't and we both know it.
Subject-Lettuce-2714@reddit
Yea. But you want the states to have the ability to impose your morality on others in a way that causes harm to already born humans. I want people to decide for themself. You can’t justify why we should consider the fetus more than the mother or father. It’s a subjective opinion that falls outside the general axioms of society. There are arguments to be made, but you’re not convinced of my side and I’m not convinced of yours.
The difference between us is that i want people to be able to make their own decisions on this matter, you want states to have the ability to impose the will of a majority onto a minority. And that imposition of will leads to demonstrable harm of the minority.
CoverFire-@reddit
I feel like we are actually really close to an agreement here, but we both just fall off the mark when looking at each other's arguments.
You say, "why should we consider the fetus more than the mother or father." My answer to that is because the Fetus (Latin for offspring/baby) has far more to lose than the mother or father. Outside of the rare instances of the mothers life being in danger or rape (which is indeed a small percentage of overall abortions) - most people have abortions for convenience sake. One side loses their life, or the other loses their convenience.
Abortion should not be used as a 'get out of jail card" just because respecting adults didn't use proper contraception. It's very easy Not to get pregnant with the number of contraceptions available which I'm all for.
Circling back to the "majority putting their will on the minority" - do you believe the U.S. should get rid of the electoral college and go to a Popular vote?
Subject-Lettuce-2714@reddit
Why give consideration to the fetus and not to the potential fetus that I ejaculate into the toilet? Why is conception so special that the consideration shifts?
CoverFire-@reddit
Sounds to me like you don't know what a Fetus is...
Subject-Lettuce-2714@reddit
What traits of a fetus would garner more personhood than when it was a sperm? Sure the timeline is closer, but the traits we value so much in humans over other life, especially animals, aren’t present in either. Arguably until close to the final stages of pregnancy.
Hunter_9501@reddit
Sperm and fetus are two different things. Sperm is male gamete with half of dna, a fetus is the result of a sperm fertilizing the female gamete (egg). And fetus wasn't once a sperm, it was once a fertilized egg.
Subject-Lettuce-2714@reddit
My naive belief in humonculus theory aside. I will still ask the question, why does it matter if a fetus is human. What if a woman wanted her eggs removed? Why does the potential matter after conception?
Hunter_9501@reddit
I'm not talking about homunculus dude. What are you talking about?
Answering to your question because people believe life begins at conception, that's when a unique DNA froms which never existed before and will never exist again. I personally am not against abortion though.
If a woman removed her eggs those eggs are unfertilized so no life is created yet.
Subject-Lettuce-2714@reddit
Oh gotcha. Had a person point out the same thing attributing it to homunculus theory or something f and calling me dumb. Bet! Sorry for being antagonistic 😊
Hunter_9501@reddit
OK dude 😊
Unhappy-Elk1191@reddit
A fetus was NEVER a sperm. Sperm only contributes half of the baby's DNA. Why do you try to pretend sperm (and not eggs, curiously) are already enough to reproduce and form a person??? If anything a fetus is more egg than sperm, it's the egg that gets fertilized and grows into a baby, not the sperm. Sperm is basically a delivery truck carrying half of DNA to the egg. All cell organelles and mtdna come from the egg.
Subject-Lettuce-2714@reddit
So we care about fetuses because they are both sperm and egg? My point still stands. You talk about potential for human experience from fetuses. But you draw the line at conception. Why? Your answer is going to be purely subjective. Great. So it should be up to each person whether they get an abortion or not. Because even if you try to legislate against abortion, you will do a great harm to many women that we see today in red states. It’s not hard to understand
Unhappy-Elk1191@reddit
You don't even know a sperm dies during fertilization and never becomes a fetus. Obviously you still believe in homunculus theory and think a sperm is a whole person and egg is just an incubator. Go take a biology course first.
Subject-Lettuce-2714@reddit
And why should we care that we start as a fetus?
Unhappy-Elk1191@reddit
Same reason a person living in 21st century still believes in homunculus theory which has been proven wrong since the 19th century or so.
Subject-Lettuce-2714@reddit
Why should we give fetuses consideration as a person.
Unhappy-Elk1191@reddit
Why would you think a fetus was once a sperm?
Subject-Lettuce-2714@reddit
I did drop out of anatomy. Not relevant. My point still stands. We care about potential. Why should the fetus be considered at all?
Unhappy-Elk1191@reddit
You can still read some books to understand how a baby is made even if you did drop out of anatomy. How come you know about sperm but not the egg??? If sperm would grow into a baby magically then how the hell do we inherit half of our dna and our mtDNA from our mothers???
Subject-Lettuce-2714@reddit
You’re a joke. You can’t explain it. Or you won’t. My level of biological understanding doesn’t matter because my oblivious belief in humorous theory doesn’t change the question and premise. You’re just focusing on that because you know you just want to be an authoritarian monster and enforce your weird dogmatic morality on everyone else. Have fun losing in November.
Unhappy-Elk1191@reddit
Because a fetus is a unique human being. Read some books and come back
Subject-Lettuce-2714@reddit
And why do we care about unique human beings?
Unhappy-Elk1191@reddit
Learn basic biology you'd understand difference between a sperm which is a haploid cell and a fetus. Biology answers your questions
Subject-Lettuce-2714@reddit
Ok cool. So. Fetus. We come from them. That’s cool. So anyways. Why should I care? You will never answer because you are a big silly goober.
Unhappy-Elk1191@reddit
You are an idiot because you are the one who thinks a fetus was once a sperm. Like women contribute nothing and are just incubators for a man's sperm and contribute nothing so sperm becomes bigger and bigger until it becomes a baby lol ridiculous
Subject-Lettuce-2714@reddit
That’s a lot of inference there buddy. Are you ok?
So why should I care?
Unhappy-Elk1191@reddit
Women doesn't incubate a sperm till birth, they incubate a fertilized EGG, which has dna from both parents
Subject-Lettuce-2714@reddit
That’s great. Happy for you. Why do we care about the potential of a fetus? Why does it matter that we start as a fetus and not a sperm? Explain why abortion should be banned. Thanks
Unhappy-Elk1191@reddit
Because unlike you, I know how biology works.
Subject-Lettuce-2714@reddit
The mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell.
Checkmate
Unhappy-Elk1191@reddit
haha that's all you know about human biology
Subject-Lettuce-2714@reddit
Are you a bot? Are you high right now? Do you ever get nervous
Unhappy-Elk1191@reddit
No it doesn't cuz that's not how it works. Sperm has ZERO potential to become a human, while a fetus IS a potential human.
Subject-Lettuce-2714@reddit
Also. Answer my question about each level.
Why is it ok for states to decide and not the country?
If it’s ok for states to why can’t we put it down another level, have cities decide? Why not local counties? Why not neighborhoods? Why not just each person?
baphometsbike@reddit
The only fetuses that are aborted fully developed are ones that pose a danger to the mother or are already deceased. You sound really ignorant to statistics on when abortions are performed and why.
USMCLee@reddit
Then don't have one.
Let women make their own decisions about their healthcare.
See how easy that is and how of this can be avoided?
CoverFire-@reddit
I didnt know it was the woman getting aborted. I'll have to research that one.
8020GroundBeef@reddit
lol it doesn’t matter what your personal preference is in these situations. You keep voting for people that disagree with that and favor blanket bans.
Not sure why you love BIG GOVERNMENT so much anyway. Complain about what they do with your taxes and then turn around and cheer when they force medical decisions on people. Truly insanity
CoverFire-@reddit
You sound like you have a lot of Beef with people.
moose0502@reddit
It doesn't matter if you consider them abortions or not. It matters if the law considers them abortions.
superfahd@reddit
Why is detecting the heartbeat the limit you set?
Cute-Gear-6774@reddit
It’s too murky and too much of a grey area. That’s why doctors wait until you’re on death’s door to save your life. The government should not have any say in this at all because you run into issues like this.
The abortion ban also threatens IVF. People who cannot conceive naturally should have the option to have and raise a family with the medical advancements we have today and that’s really not the governments business.
CoverFire-@reddit
It's hard to say that the government should have no say in this matter - but then ask the government to take a stance on it by allowing it. That's a little hypocritical.
I say let the government have Zero say and just let people vote on it. Want IVF to be legal? Put it up for vote. Let the people vote on it.
Cute-Gear-6774@reddit
That’s cute but unfortunately that’s not how democracy works. God I really hope you’re not old enough to vote in this election because you’re clearly not well read. Just say you hate women and move on
CoverFire-@reddit
Ah, there it is. The insults. Did your feelings get hurt?
I'll stick with my opinion on the matter. Let the people vote on it. I'll note that States like Ohio took a stance i don't agree with on abortion - but guess what, that's how democracy works. The people voted and the majority in the state got what they wanted.
Cute-Gear-6774@reddit
My feelings are fine you’re just an incel and as a result of no woman looking you in the eye you want to punish women who have sex. You’ve probably never even held a woman’s hand and it shows
Dallas-ModTeam@reddit
Your comment has been removed because it is a violation of Rule #3: Uncivil Behavior
Violations of this rule may result in a ban. Please review the r/Dallas rules on the sidebar before commenting or posting.
Send a message the moderators if you have any questions. Thanks!
dragonsapphic@reddit
"Did your feelings get hurt?" Lol, we aren't taking about a petty argument, we're talking about women suffering. Get some empathy, jackass.
CoverFire-@reddit
I have empathy for the 63 Million aborted babies.
superfahd@reddit
Incorrect. You have freedom until the government curtails it. After having curtailed it, the only way to restore the freedom is to have the government allow it. There is no hypocrisy here
shinywtf@reddit
What if it is a choice between baby and mother?
Let’s say your wife gets pregnant again. Something terrible happens during early pregnancy. To live, she would need to abort a healthy living fetus. If not, she dies for sure, leaving you a widower and your kids (including your newborn) motherless.
Are you letting her die?
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
What terrible thing happens during early pregnancy besides miscarriage?
shinywtf@reddit
Many things unrelated to pregnancy. For example cancer or other illnesses whose treatments could be harmful to a pregnancy.
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
The Texas law provides for these cases.
shinywtf@reddit
It absofuckinglutely does not.
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
Maybe go back and have a read?
shinywtf@reddit
Thanks. I have gone back and read the texts again.
I do not see anywhere where it says that an abortion may be performed because the woman needs treatment that is incompatible with pregnancy.
It only talks about emergencies.
Needed an abortion because you need to start chemo or something immediately is a terrible situation obviously, but it’s damn unlikely that the courts would call it an emergency if they’ve already decided other way more serious situations are not.
The law is vague as hell, on purpose. It describes how they are going to investigate every single abortion, and if THEY decide it wasn’t warranted, they can send the doctor to jail.
So of course doctors are hesitant unless it’s absolutely 100% clear that there was no other choice. They’re just not going to risk it otherwise. They are not going to give you an abortion because you need chemo.
Please prove me wrong.
zakats@reddit
Welcome to the reality of the stupid fucking abortion ban that creates this scenario.
This is what the pro-choice people have been shouting about for years.
Pandarah@reddit
By your logic the federal government should be allowed to compel you to donate a healthy organ in order to support another life. That's essentially what is happening here.
CoverFire-@reddit
I don't think the Federal government should be involved at all - supporting either position. Leave it up to the states where the People can actually control the law on this.
Just as many people disagree with abortion as agree with it. The only solution is to let people vote on it at the state level which is happening.
Pandarah@reddit
Let me rephrase - ANY government entity would have the right to compel organ donorship. You're cool if Texas comes for your liver, but not congress?
CoverFire-@reddit
The government compels me to do a lot of things I'd rather not do. I had to sign up for the draft at 18 that could lead me going to war where I could die. I have no control over my body in that matter. I don't see riots in the streets for that.
I think the government should indeed compel people to protect human life yes. With the amount of contraception available to people today, abortion should only be permitted for medical necessity reasons - not convenience.
Let's not argue exceptions here please. You argue the rule not the exception.
There really is no reason to go further in this discussion tho since neither of us will change our minds on the matter.
Goodnight.
Pandarah@reddit
Were you drafted in the 70s? If so, I believe there literally were riots in the streets for that.
Sorry we couldn't continue the discussion. A lot of women (and infants for that matter, their mortality rate has increased too) will be dying in the meantime.
CoverFire-@reddit
Like i said, we won't change each other's minds.
The 70 Million aborted babies in the U.S. under Roe v Wade, I think, is enough death for us all.
Pandarah@reddit
You have a source for that? Sounds like a nice big number but without any context I hope you can take a moment to understand how meaningless it is.
CoverFire-@reddit
You can literally Google this information. It's not difficult to find or some hidden made up number.
The numbers come from a wide range of sources. Guttmacher, Pew Research Center, the CDC, etc. Look it up.
I'm guessing you never actually knew how many abortions there have been?
Pandarah@reddit
I understand how Google works. I'm asking for your source specifically. Just by doing a cursory search the number is closer to 63 million, so your number appears to be made up. An article from Pew references that 62% of Americans believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/03/25/what-the-data-says-about-abortion-in-the-us/
There, I linked an article. Your turn.
CoverFire-@reddit
Ah, yes, I was off a few million. You got me. Let's ignore the 63 Million though...that's definitely not a big number.
If you can stomach 63 million lifes being "aborted" you are definitely a different person from me.
Pandarah@reddit
Like I said, it's all about context. 50 years. How many were fetal demises/no heartbeat? How many were cases of rape or incest?
CoverFire-@reddit
I believe the numbers for those are 1-2% if memory serves me correctly. Feel free to look it up.
Pandarah@reddit
Nah, I'm not gonna do your homework for you.
CoverFire-@reddit
You apparently didn't know even know the ball park amount of abortions there have been - so maybe you should do some homework?
Pandarah@reddit
If it's all the same to you I'll just go back to being terrified because of the government and male voters in my state who think they have something to say about what I do with my body. Thanks though!
CoverFire-@reddit
Not your body getting aborted, but okay. Use contraception.
Pandarah@reddit
Mind your business.
CoverFire-@reddit
Dont abort babies and i will. Lol
Pandarah@reddit
No prob!
CoverFire-@reddit
Cool!
Mammoth-Project-4819@reddit
why didn't you go to a hospital in the first place?
Radiant_Ad6839@reddit
Is he suggesting that having a miscarriage in Texas is illegal?
Radiant_Ad6839@reddit
This guy is full of shit
Handicapable35@reddit
I'm confused. If the baby has no heartbeat, it's technically dead, and taking it out wouldn't be an abortion?
shinywtf@reddit
The medical definition of abortion is the removal of pregnancy tissue, products of conception or the fetus and placenta (afterbirth) from the uterus. It makes no distinction if it is alive or dead or dying.
Agreeable_Ganache_63@reddit
That's not correct. The medical definition of an abortion is the termination of pregnancy before the fetus can survive outside the uterus. This is why there is a distiction between spontaneous and elective abortions.
Texas Health and Safety Code 245.002 says that an (elective) abortion is the use of medical resources with the explocit intent to cause death of an unborn child. It also has stipulation stating in subsection 1.B that the conditions of removing an unborn, dead child is not an abortion (although a miscarriage is considered a spontaneous abortion). A dilation and currtage (D&C) is very different from an elective abortion.
I will say that I really wish the OOPs spouse had received better care. I work in the medical field and it is so disappointing when I hear stories where someone isn't taken care of. I take pride in what I do and that is not what I stand for. The hospital system certainly failed her in her time of need and needs to do better.
However, this story is misrepresenting the perceived need for elective abortions to save lives. Lifting an abortion ban is not what she needed. What she needed was a D&C which is not an elective abortion but a medical procedure to prevent infection and hemorrhage. Why they didnt perform this procedure, i dont know, but it wasnt because of an abortion ban. I will never be OK with ending the life of a child.
mightbebutteredtoast@reddit
That’s seriously fucking wild. The logic never stops with what constitutes “killing a baby” to republicans. We’ve got IVF bans in some places trying to go through, next it’ll be birth control of any kind since most kinds of birth control can allow fertilization but not implantation. What I’m most afraid of is if some dickwad tries to convince Texas lawmakers to pursue miscarriage as needing to put women on criminal trials to make sure it was nature that caused it and nothing that they may have done wrong, trying to pursue miscarriage as manslaughter or something.
darkpaladin@reddit
There's enough room for ambiguity in the law that a lot of doctors won't take the risk. Either they're not well versed enough in the field (think rural doc) or they're afraid of having to deal with a lawsuit because the woman wasn't verifiably in sepsis.
It does happen in DFW though, one of my fiancee's coworkers lost an ovary due to an ectopic pregnancy. She went to the ER a few times in a week and each time they told her they couldn't help her. Finally she went into sepsis and had to have emergency surgery. I can't imagine what their bills are, they didn't have insurance cause "they're healthy and don't need to pay for it".
Handicapable35@reddit
That's crazy, it needs to be rewritten better i suppose
VendettaKarma@reddit
This is ridiculous
ahava9@reddit
It’s terrifying to be a woman in Texas, especially if you’re still of reproductive age.
I’ve had family say “just go out of state” like everyone has the money for that. If you’re actively having a miscarriage it’s too dangerous to get on a plane or drive.
Gimme_More_Cats@reddit
And if Trump wins and we have a conservative congress, I’d be willing to bet that the first thing they pass is a national abortion ban. Out of State won’t even be an option anymore.
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
The Supreme Court left it up to the states.
AnswerMaximum@reddit
That doesn’t mean there couldn’t be a federal ban. Congress legislates.
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
It would be overturned. Quickly.
AnswerMaximum@reddit
By this SCOTUS that was hand-picked to do just this? No way.
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
The Supreme Court has already ruled it’s up to the states.
AnswerMaximum@reddit
Now it is. That does not preclude a national ban from Congress.
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
My point is the Supreme Court would strike it down. They have clearly ruled it’s up to the states. It would be unconstitutional; they’ve already decided this.
AnswerMaximum@reddit
They wouldn’t is my point. Think about it. A ban or “minimal national standard” has not come before the court. Reread Dobbs- it’s a privacy case. I’m an attorney & this is my issue.
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
I’ll take your point then! And you are right about Dobbs. Hopefully it doesn’t come to pass.
lambchop90@reddit
The abortion ban didn't change anything about miscarriages. At all. A miscarriage means there is no heartbeat. There is nothing to save. The baby has passed. If you're having a miscarriage they will treat it by trying to use the least invasive procedure possible, starts with letting it pass naturally, then trying a pill to help it pass, then a DNC. It's the physician's job to decide when they need to move up to a DNC due to health risks. Has nothing to do with the abortion ban.
HStave73@reddit
A D&C is only done after the mother has already expelled the fetus, or as a diagnostic procedure. If the mother has not expelled the fetus, but there is no heartbeat, a D&E or D&X may be necessary. Both are forms of medically necessary abortion.
lambchop90@reddit
I'm speaking of early term miscarriages, if a fetus is further along that D&E or D&X would be needed to remove the fetus they would induce labor using petocin instead as this is actually safer for the mothers body since the fetus and placenta will come out intact, leaving less chance of retained products of conception. An abortion is never medically necessary.
HStave73@reddit
If you saw the video, they tried medical abortion (that is the term for medication used to induce a miscarriage). It did not work. When they went back to the urgent care center, they should immediately have been referred to the hospital, which they were not. In this instance, the hospital very likely would have done a dilation & evacuation (an abortion), or a dilation & extraction (an abortion) depending on the trimester. The mother was in serious medical distress, and at this point, would have been considered too risky to try to induce labor (plus, she had already been prescribed medication to encourage the spontaneous abortion of the fetus, which failed). And yes, abortion can be medically necessary, as per the opinion in this joint statement from ACOG (American College of Obstetricians & Gynecologists) and PRH (Physicians for Reproductive Health): https://www.acog.org/news/news-releases/2019/09/abortion-can-be-medically-necessary
lambchop90@reddit
In a statement you listed from ACOG, they are using the term abortion in the medical sense which literally just means the ending of a pregnancy. That's why women who have a wanted pregnancy, if they have a miscarriage, it is listed as a spontaneous abortion. They did not go to get an abortion as we use the word in society, but medically speaking they had a spontaneous abortion. That statement refers to if the mother's life is in danger then medical abortion is necessary. What this would mean is that if the mother for instance had hypertension uncontrolled or a kidney issue that was putting her life in danger due to the pregnancy they would induce labor when it is unlikely for the baby to be able to survive out of the womb. Thus being a medical abortion. It is not speaking of the term abortion as we throw it around, meaning the intentional ending of another life inside the womb.
They would not have given her Misoprostol if she was far enough along to need a D&E or D&X, that in itself would be medical malpractice. So if the medication wasn't working they would perform a D&C.
I am an OBGYN sonographer and have been in Texas for 10+ years. In the DFW with the physicians I work with 16+ nothing has changed in the way miscarriages are treated after roe v Wade was overturned.
I do not think what happened to this woman was right from what I have seen, but I do not think it has anything to do with the abortion laws and everything to do with poor medical care, honestly medical malpractice.
Ectopics, and miscarriages in my personal experience in Texas have been treated the same as they were prior to the abortion law. The only difference is that people have been going out of state to receive elective abortions and don't want to return for the follow up ultrasound out of state, so more often end up coming to a physician in Texas for follow up care. I feel that the false belief that D&Cs after miscarriage cannot be performed in Texas causes women to be less likely to seek the care they can definitely receive in Texas and is dangerous to assume or tell others they can't.
HStave73@reddit
You’re not understanding. I’m not talking about “society” or how “we throw [the term abortion] around”. I’m talking about the law, and how it pertains to medical professionals, using the term abortion specifically. The law uses the term abortion yet doesn’t specifically define the word, and I guarantee that the law isn’t “throwing the term around”. If a provider must perform vacuum aspiration, a D&C, a D&E or D&X because the mother’s life is in jeopardy, then they are, technically, surgically, and yes, LEGALLY performing an abortion, regardless of whether it’s considered elective or (yes) medically necessary. If you’re telling me that the ONLY reason a D&C, D&E or D&X is ever performed is because someone decides they don’t want to be pregnant anymore, then I don’t know where (or for what doctors) you work. I do know, from your profile, that you seem to be a dedicated and caring Christian, so I would assume you work for a clinic that doesn’t perform these procedures at all. All I have to add is this, from the March of Dimes, where there are maternal and infant mortality rate statistics that do indicate that fetal abnormalities are the leading cause of pre-term birth and infant death in Texas. We are rated a D- by the March of Dimes, and Houston in particular is rated an F for having the highest mortality rate in the state.
lambchop90@reddit
No, I work for private OB offices who prior to the ban would aid in women receiving elective abortions. I am certainly a Christian, and I do believe that elective abortions are wrong. However, I'm not politically active. I don't vote. I don't assign myself to any party and I think that both parties have horribly corrupt things about them, which is why I just choose to let it play out how it plays outThat has nothing to do with the medical procedures that we're talking about. Whether you're pro-life or pro-choice isn't the issue here.
The issue is that people are spreading misinformation stating that people cannot simply get life-saving care in Texas because of an abortion law, and that is simply not factual information. The misinformation that is being spread by people stating this leads to women not seeking proper care in Texas because they believe they will be denied, which is not the truth. I'm not saying what happened to this woman didn't happen. I don't know about that case. What I am saying is that would be medical malpractice and nothing to do with the abortion law.
A provider never needs to perform a D&E or D&X because the mother's life is in danger. If a mother's life is in danger and they are so far along that a D&C would not be sufficient, they would induce labor. If there were medical abnormalities that were a risk to the mother's life, they would induce Labor, the abortion ban doesn't stop this from happening. inducing labor prior to viability is considered a "medical abortion". That is why I brought up the definition. What people in the medical profession use the word abortion for is not the same as what the law is using it for and I feel like this is what's causing so much confusion about the law.
Ending a pregnancy via induction is not prohibited and is not what the law prohibits. If a mother is in danger due to her pregnancy and the doctors deem the pregnancy needs to be ended early, they will choose to induce not perform a DNX or DNE, this has been this way pre and post the abortion ban. Why? Because both of these procedures are more dangerous than inducing labor, they pose more of a risk to the mother than inducing labor does. Inducing labor to save a mother's life, or performing a Suction D&C to remove a miscarriage are not prohibited by the abortion laws in Texas, what is prohibited is the ending of a life while in the womb. Again if a mother 's life is in danger and she is so far along that a D&C would not suffice, they would induce labor. The child would be born and if it was before 23 weeks often no life-saving attempts would be made. However, this varies from hospital or hospital and provider to provider whether or not they would perform life-saving measures regardless of gestational age.
I feel like we're just going in circles here and possibly not understanding each other. And I am more than happy to agree to disagree if that is the case. I would never want what happened to this young woman to happen to anyone and I hope that women will seek care and receive high quality care. I sincerely wish you all the best. Have a great night.
HStave73@reddit
But that’s simply not true. An intact D&E absolutely can and is used to perform an abortion after the fetal heartbeat is detected. In this case, the heartbeat was not detected, and the procedure could have been performed (and is actually indicated to be performed) after misoprostil had been administered to soften the cervix. Removing a dead fetus does not fall under the legal definition of a “partial-birth abortion”, which is most definitely illegal in Texas. In the case of a mother who would lose a child to severe deformity either prior to birth or immediately after birth, I’m not sure the laws have changed in Texas, as I’m not familiar with the law pertaining to partial-birth abortion in this state, but I don’t think we are disagreeing, here. I think you’re discussing a fetus that is still alive and I’m discussing the above situation where the fetus is no longer viable, in which case the mother likely could have received an intact D&E.
HStave73@reddit
Also, a D&C is not done in first trimester as an abortive procedure either. Vacuum aspiration would be the procedure used, and afterward, a D&C would be used to remove any remaining tissue or debris from the pregnancy.
Nepherenia@reddit
It's almost like you missed 80% of the whole post, and you are talking out of your ass.
It has everything to do with the abortion ban, because caregivers are denying lifesaving medical care. And it's not a "DNC" it's a D&C, dilation and curettage. Doctors are too scared to perform because it falls under the blanket of abortion procedures, because Texas lawmakers would rather women die with the fetus than save the woman at the expense of the fetus.
lambchop90@reddit
I know what the procedure is. DNC is that way I chose to shorthand it. I am an obgyn sonographer in Texas, I have been for 10+ years. Nothing regarding this has changed. We still do DNCs for miscarriages regularly. Physicians do the least invasive things first, let the body pass it, then give a pill to help pass it, then DNC as a last resort. The abortion ban didn't change anything regarding that, because it's not considered an abortion. It is a procedure that the physician chooses to escalate to depending on the circumstances. This is a medical malpractice issue not anything to do with abortion.
Nepherenia@reddit
If multiple hospitals are denying lifesaving care, how can you possibly believe it has nothing to do with the abortion ban?
Seriously, do you think the doctors denied the medical procedure she needed just for funsies?
blancsterrific@reddit
You think medical professionals don't make mistakes? They may have denied it because patient was unfunded, or any number of other reasons, including sheer stupidity. Too many women in this state die and it has nothing to do with the abortion ban and everything to do with medical malpractice and lack of healthcare and funding for women who need it.
Nepherenia@reddit
Obviously they make mistakes. Having a ban in place that makes performing a lifesaving procedure potentially something you could lose your license for is making an awful lot of doctors deny care because they don't know if they're going to be prosecuted for it.
The sheer stupidity you speak of is the state thinking they have any business legislating medical care, causing medical practitioners to opt for the "safe path" of denying care because the mother wasn't close enough to dead.
Saying multiple denials of a D&C and other maternal healthcare proceedsures has nothing to do with the abortion ban are themselves in denial.
Maternal mortality rates have skyrocketed in Texas since the ban went in place. The repercussions of this ban are far reaching, and it's fucking foul. http://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna171631
lambchop90@reddit
I have no idea about this certain situation, I wasn't there don't have medical records and have not spoken to the physician. From a medical standpoint in Texas it doesn't make much sense for them to deny her a DNC if she needed one, as there is no law against the procedure. It's done regularly on non pregnant people all the time, and if there is no heartbeat again it's not an abortion. I work with 16+ obgyns in the DFW and none would have an issue doing a DNC on someone who has miscarried, so I'm really not sure what happened, but it's not because of the law. It doesn't bother me what anyone's stance is about the law or prolife vs pro choice, but it is frustrating when misinformation spreads regarding what can be done medically as it actually prevents people from seeking the care that they absolutely can receive here in Texas.
grendus@reddit
And the thing is, it doesn't matter if you do have the money to go out of state and are medically stable enough to do so.
If they agree that abortion should be allowed in the case of medical necessity, why the fuck isn't it!? Like, let's fucking start there, and ignore the fact that Republicans are pushing for a total national ban, or punishing women for getting medical care in another state that's banned in their home state. Let's just pretend that the current status quo won't change, how the fuck can they be OK with saying "you just have to go up to those heathens in [neighboring state] that will remove the corpse in your belly that's actively killing you so our God-fearing Texas doctors can keep their hands clean" (even though most of them would gladly do so if legally allowed - I understand not wanting to throw away your medical license over a single patient just because of shitheaded politicians).
DrWatson90@reddit
I’m just not sure why there’s resistance at all to this. Just let women have abortions, who the hell cares, it’s got nothing to do with us.
Chaostis42@reddit
This is the REAL summation of Texas. Only morons born here think it is a great place. If you wanna see propaganda as a lifestyle, move to Texas.
Rosequeen1989@reddit
I was born in Tyler, not far from DFW. The only reason I was is that my mom was allowed a D&C after her miscarriage in Pre Roe Texas. In Texas, before Roe was the law of the land doctors understood that caring for a miscarriage was healthcare. I am alive today because my mother’s fertility was sustained due to those ideas being in place. Others today are not so fortunate. How do we help them tell their stories too?
lambchop90@reddit
It's still allowed now. Nothing changed regarding the ability to have a DNC after a miscarriage. The baby is already dead at this point. It's not an abortion!
Wafflehouseofpain@reddit
I wonder why multiple hospitals were too scared to help this woman, then? Could it be the threat of the loss of livelihood, lawsuits, prison?
lambchop90@reddit
Honestly I have no idea it makes no sense, there is no law preventing them to. If there is no heartbeat it's not considered an elective abortion. 16+ physicians I work for in the DFW have no qualms about performing them, because it's not illegal. It's only illegal to do if there is a live fetus, with a heartbeat.
tilrman@reddit
Go read this, then come back here:
https://www.texastribune.org/2023/12/08/texas-abortion-lawsuit-ken-paxton/
All Ken Paxton has to do is claim the fetus did have a heartbeat. He can claim the doctor intended to perform an illegal abortion and fabricated the test results to justify it. A lawsuit on this premise will crush any small private practice doctor, regardless of the 'legality' of the procedure.
lambchop90@reddit
They can document absent fetal heart tones with an ultrasound. It doesn't have to be a he said she said thing, they would have proof, which is part of why they have medical records.
The article you referenced was not referring to the mother's life being at risk or speaking of a miscarriage where the fetus had already passed, which is what I'm saying that the law doesn't prohibit any procedures that help save the mother's life, including performing a D&C after a miscarriage.
noncongruent@reddit
The hospital can document all they want, and they can present it at trial, and probably win, but the doctor still has a criminal arrest and prosecution on their record that will follow them around the rest of their lives. The pro-lifers will ignore the trial outcome and harass the hospital and all their doctors, nurses, staff, etc, because after all, "if there wasn't a crime, why would they be prosecuted? They must be abortionists that got off on a technicality". In other words, in a decent world there would never be even a hint of a threat of prosecution, but we live in the GOP's world where implied threats of prosecution are the same exact thing as actual prosecutions. You may beat the rap but you're still going on the ride. Hell, the hospital's insurers likely told the hospitals to not even think about doing anything that could even remotely be thought of as an abortion simply because of the money it would cost the hospital's insurers. Better to avoid the whole thing up front by denying care.
lambchop90@reddit
This whole idea that someone would accuse someone of performing an elective abortion on someone just seems illogical, who is going to sue the woman who already knows her pregnancy ended and signed a consent for the treatment? HIPPA doesn't allow anyone without written consent to even see the records... so please tell me who's walking around accusing Doctors treating women with miscarriages of performing elective abortions?
I literally scanned today a woman who just had a D&C in Texas after a miscarriage, it's literally not a big deal and no one is making a big deal out of it. It's not the same thing as an elective abortion and medical Doctors are not confused about that nor are they worried. Doctors are not walking around afraid to do these procedures. If the doctors in this case are claiming that, they are covering something up big time and hoping the pro-choice community becomes their rally cry.
noncongruent@reddit
All the lege has to do is spell out in law, clearly and succinctly, that doctors cannot be prosecuted or charged for performing a medically necessary abortion. Eliminate the vague language, and since legislatures aren't doctors, spell out clearly and irrevocably that it's up to the doctor to decide what's medically necessary, and spell out that they're immune from any prosecution. As long as doctors and their insurance companies and lawyers say that the law is vague enough to allow prosecution then the doctors are doing the right thing by denying service. They have the right to protect themselves and their families from bogus prosecutions.
lambchop90@reddit
I can definitely agree with making the verbage in the law more clear!
tilrman@reddit
Yes, you keep saying "the law" this and "the law" that. The text of the law is irrelevant. The lawsuit itself, not the outcome, can destroy someone's career.
AnswerMaximum@reddit
A D&C is an abortion- medical term is abortion. Drs face felonies and don’t want to risk their licenses.
AnswerMaximum@reddit
That is your experience and not the reality of so many women denied care. I’m an attorney and quite familiar with the topic. A group of women denied care sued to clarify the law but our TX Supreme Court ruled against them.
lambchop90@reddit
No it's not. A D&C is a procedure where they remove the lining of the uterus where a fetus implants. They perform these on both pregnant and non pregnant people. It is a type of procedure used during an elective abortion yes, but the procedure in of itself is not an abortion. Abortion in the medical sense simply means the ending of a pregnancy. Even a wanted pregnancy that ends is considered a spontaneous abortion. If there is no heartbeat as in an incomplete spontaneous abortion ( meaning the body hasn't passed the deceased fetus and products of conception) a D&C can be used to remove the lining, fetus, and products of conception. This is not the same thing as having an elective abortion where the fetus is alive with a heartbeat at the time of the procedure. The law does not prohibit D&C procedures in the case of miscarriage. It is not usually the first option Doctors choose pre or post law because it is a surgery they will try less invasive options first, such as allowing the patients body time to pass it, using Misoprostol meds to help the body pass it, and if those fail usually D&C is the next step. I literally have scanned patients who had D&Cs for a miscarriage in Texas a week ago. Doctors in Texas are not scared to perform D&Cs on patients who have miscarried.
I am an obgyn sonographer in Texas and I have not seen any change in the way physicians care for patients who have a miscarriage. The only difference has been if the PT wants an elective abortion at any gestational age they refer them to an out of state clinic, just as they did for patients who were over 22 weeks gestational age and wanted an elective abortion prior to the law changing, as Texas already could not legally perform them past this gestational age.
I'm not sure what happened with this woman but it has nothing to do with the law and might be medical malpractice.
blancsterrific@reddit
all I'm seeing in this thread is that people want to believe what they want to believe and completely ignore the fact that NOBODY with a shred of medical education would consider this situation to fall even remotely within the realm of an abortion. I would bet that this has everything to do with the patient having shitty insurance making hospitals not want to touch her, a lack of competent doctors in these small hospitals, etc., and not with the abortion ban.
themagicb@reddit
i call cap.
Icy_Huckleberry_8049@reddit
Lots of people don't understand how the abortion ban will affect them.
I had a friend that was pro ban and then I asked her what she would do if her granddaughter needed to have an abortion to save her life.
QUOTE - "I hadn't thought about that"
Most people just don't think that it will ever affect them and that it just affects others.
KremlinKittens@reddit
Medical emergencies are exempted, allowing for abortions to be performed to save a woman's life. Trying to bend reality to fit your narrative?
QuintillionthCat@reddit
And apparently she’s got to be really really really close to death before they’ll do it! Would you want this to happen to someone you loved??
KremlinKittens@reddit
And what exactly are you basing your 'really, really, really' statement on? If you're telling me that medical malpractice can kill someone I love - well, duh, I'm fully aware of that. But that risk isn't exclusive to abortion, it applies to any medical treatment in general. Medical errors cause between 210K and over 400K deaths per year in the US.
NotNatTheBug@reddit
Except right now, due to the current laws and policies in Texas concerning abortions, there have been numerous cases where pregnant women need to be close to death in order to get an abortion that would save their lives. This has happened multiple times where doctors know the pregnancy has problems/needs to be aborted, but Doctors are essentially just waiting for the woman to get closer to death/have severe symptoms/turn septic etc before they will provide the medically necessary abortion.
QuintillionthCat@reddit
This.
KremlinKittens@reddit
While it's true that Texas's abortion laws have led to delays in care for some women, it's important to note that these cases haven't resulted in widespread fatalities, as might be implied. The five lawsuits filed in 2023 represent isolated, though serious, incidents, and they raise concerns about how medical professionals are interpreting the law. However, this issue may be more indicative of medical malpractice or a lack of clarity in the law rather than the law itself being fundamentally flawed. Doctors should not be waiting for patients to be near death, and these cases highlight the need for clearer guidelines to prevent unnecessary suffering while still adhering to the law.
randompersonwhowho@reddit
I don't believe they are short sighted. I truly believe they can't display empathy for other people. And if that situation does happen to them they believe they are the exception to the rule.
Spongedog5@reddit
We display empathy for the people, but also for the babies that are sacrifices. I could easily say that pro-choice folks can't display empathy because they are willing to kill children for their convenience, but I wouldn't because it isn't helpful to anyone and doesn't change anyone's mind.
OmenQtx@reddit
Here's a fundamental problem with this debate.
We cannot agree on when the developing fetus is a child.
Some say at birth. Others say when the fetus is fully developed and could survive being removed from the mother. Still others say at the moment of implantation into the uterus, or at the fertilization of the egg.
I find it telling that legally, it's a child at the moment of birth. Before that, it's a part of the mother. Whether that birth is at 40 weeks of gestation, or some number less due to medical intervention, that is when insurance, social security numbers, and the legal existence of the child begins. Before that moment, it is legally not an individual person and has no rights.
It's easy to be the voice of the unborn. They can't disagree with you, no matter what you say. You can just make up whatever argument you want, then demonize anyone who disagrees with you with a false sense of moral superiority. The science on when a fetus should be considered "complete" and capable of independent survival outside the mother, and many other factors that make up a person, is incomplete.
Personally I choose to err on the side of the already established and existing person being able to make their own decisions about the life form growing inside them. Let the doctors and the patients figure out the care required to sustain one or both lives. If I had been forced to choose between my child and my wife at any time before he was born, I'd choose to save the mother every time. If the child was already dead inside her like in the video, what's the point of making her wait 4 days and pass out from infection and blood loss before giving her the care she needs?
Spongedog5@reddit
None of this pertains to whether I have empathy or not. Most of the folks who get abortions never even approach the situation in this video, so we can basically leave it behind. I’d happily agree with you that these procedures should be legal (they are) if you’d agree with me we could ban all non-life-saving abortions (you won’t).
The only logical place for the beginning of life is conception. Any other given place has holes and logical inconsistencies. Regardless, that has nothing to do with my empathy.
OmenQtx@reddit
All you’ve done is prove my point. There is no definitively logical place to define the beginning of life. Fertilization and implantation don’t actually create a life. Those cells were alive before they joined.
Many sperm fertilize many eggs that never implant.
Many implantations are of nonviable eggs.
Many spontaneous rejections of a zygote or embryo can result in the need for medical care.
There are too many variables to make a one-size-fits-all law that will have the desired result without causing irreparable harm to some. Threatening doctors with prison time for what comes down to a judgement call between them and their patient is a bad policy.
Spongedog5@reddit
Conception creates new DNA. That is my standard for new and separate life. It’s a clear and definable difference. No other stage of gestation has such a clear and definable before and after.
If you can’t define where life begins, then you shouldn’t be gambling with exterminating it. If your going to kill fetuses, you need to be able to say whether they are living people or not. If you can’t, you should err on the side of life until you can.
street593@reddit
95% of abortions happen before 13 weeks. Before significant brain development. Is it a human life? Sure. DNA and all that stuff. However without the brain I would argue there isn't a person in there yet. That is why we don't consider pulling the plug on brain dead people murder. I don't find anything morally wrong with terminating it at that stage. The fetus never experienced anything.
If you believe in souls then you can disregard everything I just said.
Spongedog5@reddit
We don't consider pulling the plug on the brain dead murder because it's determined that they won't be coming back. A child is growing and will gain consciousness.
Abortion is more comparable to killing a man who is in a coma, but is expected to recover. They can't take care of themselves and on their own they would die. They can't defend themselves, and provide no intelligent thought. Yet they still live and soon will regain their intelligence.
I'm curious on your thoughts in this. On hearing my comparison, do you still think that yours is more apt? Is the fetus really more comparable to a brain dead man who will never recover, or to a man in a coma who soon will?
I believe in the soul, but not only do I not need that belief at all for this argument, you will never hear me bring it up on my own in this sort of argument.
street593@reddit
I mean the fetus literally doesn't have the physical mechanisms developed yet for an active consciousness at the time of most abortions. There is no person in that body yet. They have no hopes or dreams or pain or thoughts of any kinds. I see nothing morally wrong with termination during that time period.
Of course everytime I say this the first response is always "well they will develop it if we don't stop the process." Which is true but that doesn't change the morality of the act in my eyes as long as it's in that stage of development.
The mother gets what she wants and a consciousness wasn't extinguished because it didn't exist yet. Win-win as far as I'm concerned.
Spongedog5@reddit
I would prefer a clear answer to my question.
In your first comment to me, you agreed that it was a human life. If you think that it is okay to kill people who are inconvenient to you and who will come to live a full and complete life, then I'm not sure if I can help you find your humanity. You pro-choice folk who admit that it is a human life are the most honest and logically consistent of your kind, though you are also the most heartless. Most pro-choice folks delude themselves or don't consider the topic; the fact that you see the human life is a comment on your intelligence and consistency, but a poor one on your character.
It really is amazing to see the range of what humanity can either justify to itself or get hung up on. I'll never understand people like you who feel free to rob what you know is a human life of their future just for the convenience of someone who has power over them. It really is a sort of oppression. With most folks I'm trying to get them to see the human in the womb and hoping that if they see that, their character will make them sickened towards abortion, but there really is almost nothing to be done for people like you who see the truth and just have broken morals.
It's why I'm supremely happy for the efforts of our supreme court justices and sympathetic state legislatures here in America. Though the world mostly falls into the moral degeneracy of "me me me," there are still a few brave people who defend the rights of the unborn from the selfish that seek to take what little they have.
street593@reddit
It's human life only in the biological sense of it contains human DNA. However I am arguing that before 13 weeks when 95% of all abortions happen it is not a person yet. No brain = no person. It's simply biological and I don't have a moral issue with terminating during that stage.
I also think that ultimate control over your own body is a fundamental right. If someone is in my house that threatens my life I can kill them. Yet a fetus in a woman's body that threatens their life must be protected? It lacks consistency. Also for clarification all pregnancies are dangerous. Complications can appear quickly and without warning.
I'm not sure what truth you think I am seeing yet choosing to ignore. I've stated my beliefs as clearly and concisely as possible. This thing you think was deleted from the universe simply didn't exist. I don't feel bad about things that don't exist.
You are free to feel however you want about my moral character but I won't lose any sleep over it. I stand by my belief and feel that it is the correct one.
Spongedog5@reddit
I don't know why you try to make all of these analogies that aren't correct. A fetus in a woman is not like someone random coming into your house and threatening you. A fetus in a woman is like if you kidnapped someone off the street, took them into your house, then shot them in the head for "trespassing" and claimed that you were justified. The child didn't choose to be there. They were put there by someone else. They aren't invading anything.
It only lacks consistency when you draw false comparisons.
I'm sick and tired of people putting words in my mouth on Reddit. Did I ever once say that you were ignoring a truth? There are no facts here. If you think it is okay to kill innocent people, there is nothing I can do factually to convince you otherwise. On these moral calls, there's nothing that can be proven objectively unless I knew what moral code that you hold to. Very few people hold to a moral code these days that isn't religious, and I don't pin you as one of those. At the end of the day, if you want to hold the evil belief that murdering people is fine so long as they don't currently have consciousness, then you've already accepted that into your heart; your brain isn't going to pull you out of it.
No, you don't think that what you are killing doesn't exist. Unless you are saying that the fetus is actually a figment of our imaginations, you know very well that it exists. That is what you are killing, for all intents and purposes. Wrestle with the importance of the fetus, don't delude yourself into thinking that what you see and what I see is so entirely different so as to be different entities. I see exactly what you do.
I know that you won't lose any sleep over it. I think the only pro-choice people that question it are the woman who get abortions. Only they seem to have the experience to understand the complexity of the question.
I've argued with an infinite amount of folks like you. I've learned that it's a practice in futility to try to convince someone like you. I provide my arguments for my own practice at logic. Luckily, my movement has succeeded; thanks to the supreme court, my state was able to ban abortion in all but life-threatening scenarios. While I still look with abject mourning at the slaughter that your ilk perpetuate, I also don't lose sleep, because at least my community of millions of people have seen how barbaric this practice is and don't allow it in our hospitals. Though I hold little hope that people will suddenly realize the evil that they wring upon this Earth, me and mine will continue to fight for the rights of the little ones. Hopefully we encounter people less hard hearted than you.
street593@reddit
We will have to agree to disagree. You will continue to fight against abortion and I will continue to fight for abortion. I think if you don't like abortion you should simply choose not to have one. In my eyes taking away women's control of their body is the evil act here.
I've said enough on this topic so we can end things here. Have a good one.
Spongedog5@reddit
Yeah you too. I’ll just finish it by saying you know I can’t just live-and-let-live on this one. You should know that if I think abortion is murder it can’t simply be “don’t get one.” We don’t do that for any other violent crime, we protect the weak and innocent.
street593@reddit
I understand that you will never stop fighting for what you believe is right. Neither will I. Only time will tell who wins but like most things in life the fight never ends.
OmenQtx@reddit
Cancer also creates new DNA.
Spongedog5@reddit
Cancer also kills the host. Just like the law, I’m fine for abortive measures when the mother’s life is at risk.
I don’t even have to get into the difference between cancer and a fetus here. Even if you assumed I had the most brain dead take that they were the same this isn’t the gotcha you might’ve thought.
OmenQtx@reddit
The treatment for cancer can also kill the host. But that treatment should be the sole discretion of the patient and their doctor(s).
Same for a pregnancy. How the bundle of cells within a person's uterus is handled should be between that person and their doctor(s).
I'm with the majority who belive that abortion should be legal in most cases. I believe that third trimester abortions are exceptionally rare, and those cases generally fit into a "life of the mother" situation.
I believe that a fetus is not the same as a person, and that in most cases it cannot be considered one without extreme intervention prior to about 30 weeks.
I believe that less than 1% of abortions occur after 20 weeks, which is well before the end of fetal development.
I believe that abortions are on the decline without draconian laws that lead to people being denied medical care.
I believe that if you want to prevent unwanted pregnancies, the proper response is to increase education and access to contraception, and not to deny access to medical care after the fact.
I believe that Texas' abortion ban has led to more deaths than it has prevented abortions.
Spongedog5@reddit
Implying a belief is correct because of how many people hold it is a fallacy.
As for Texas, I find that article very strange. If the new abortion ban is solely responsible for a rise in mortality during pregnancy, then why is it going back down in 2022 back to it's 2019 levels? Especially because that's when the law become more extreme. Seems like it's trending back down.
Also, there were 50,000 abortions in Texas in 2021. In 2021 there were 373,671 births, at 28.5 maternal mortality per 100,000 live births, that means there was about 106 mortalities. Are you trying to convince me that the lives of 106 people (of which many still would have died before the law passed because maternal mortality wasn't zero) is worth 50,000 lives? Like, are you actually trying to convince anyone of anything? I'm sorry for what happened to these women, but you think I'm going to be like "Oh no, these 100 deaths are so sad, we should have killed 50,000 children so that we could have only 60 instead." It's ridiculous. Actually look at the context of your numbers and explain to me how any pro-life person would ever be swayed by this reality.
None of your other statements matter. Oh, you believe a fetus isn't a person? Okay, thanks for telling me? Mind actually providing some sort of a argument to justify that, that I can engage with? I don't know you, you're opinion isn't more important to me than any random person, so you've got to provide some reasoning if you want me to actually care rather than just some random statement.
Only 1% occur after 20 weeks. I believe it's wrong at the very instance of conception. What does this mean to me? Did you read my previous post?
Your plan for reducing abortions is fine, but just because I can reduce violent homicides by increasing the economic outcomes of impoverished areas of the US doesn't mean we don't arrest the culprits as well.
I understand that you are breaking down like someone in the army when they are captured now that you are facing some sort of pushback and just stating your manifesto so that you don't let the dangerous thoughts into your head, but you've really got to give me something to work with here. Tell me why you believe these things and why they matter to you, don't just give me statements. You write like you are trying to just information-load whoever is reading your comment so they believe you must be right, but no one is reading our comments this far down other than me. And I know too much about this than to be swayed by popular polling and surface-level statistics.
OmenQtx@reddit
Not really.
Spongedog5@reddit
But that's exactly my point. I didn't bring up the 50,000 versus 100 thing, YOU DID (I just put numbers to it). Why would you bring it up if you've so perfectly described why that wouldn't convince me (just in reverse terms)?
I don't know why you felt the need to post all of that if you don't want to discuss it.
Chawkinstein@reddit
You’re just a pawn for religious ideology. If you actually took the time to examine the complexity of this issue, you’d realize that even among religious groups, there is no consensus on when life begins. You’re parroting a narrative without acknowledging the bigger picture.
Here’s a quote from the Politico article:
To understand how nuanced this topic really is, I recommend looking at these:
It’s not as black and white as you’re making it seem.
Spongedog5@reddit
Here it is with the religious bit. I've never used religious argumentation to justify my pro-life beliefs. By hiding behind ad-hominem, it make you look like you are afraid to engage me on terms of logic alone. It is a fallacy.
Did I ever say that there is a consensus on when life begins? The amount of people who believe in something doesn't make that thing right or wrong. That's also a fallacy.
This is funny, usually I'd get into an actual point by now, but your whole comment was fallacies. It's always you folk who belittle others who seem to lack the most in any sort of logical conversation. It is black and white, and I'll happily explain the black, and the white to you if you want. Just because people are confused (or maliciously ignorant) doesn't make the morality any less clear. If you don't think it's black and white, explain to me where you think the grey is, and why it is grey to you.
I'm not going to watch your videos. If you want me to spend the time watching them, then perhaps you can spend some time actually presenting any kind of logical thought or argument first. If your goal was just to convince me that people think different things on abortion, then congratulations, I've never been ignorant to that elementary thought. If your goal was to somehow use that to shake my logical understanding of abortion, then you have fallen into fallacy.
Chawkinstein@reddit
They’re articles. There is no scientific justification for life at conception. None. The argument is wholly religious and hiding that fact does nobody any good. The articles presented go into how the “pro-life” sides conception arguments have changed over time and how they have come to a head now. Read them. You might learn something about yourself
Spongedog5@reddit
If you believe they have something actually new for me, share what you think. I’m not convinced enough to look.
Science tells us that at conception, a cell with a new combination of DNA is created. This cell then goes on to grow itself continuously until it becomes a fully formed adult organism. This is what I consider life. Science does support life at conception if you have the same understanding of life as I do.
And of course, that’s the issue. It’s a moral question, not a scientific one. Obviously the science fits with my moral view, and I’m sure that you have your own view where it fits with yours. At a purely objective level it’s certainly a biological cell with unique DNA that is growing. There is no clearer place to define the beginning of a new life. If you believe there is one, then go ahead and share it in your own words.
And cut it with the religious crap. That doesn’t matter here. You can use that line when you catch me making a religious argument.
The origins of arguments don’t matter, only their merit.
Chawkinstein@reddit
Science has a different definition for life, how does that fit with your view? The origins and context absolutely do matter especially if you are saying your argument isn’t religious. If the argument is moral then read the articles to see how those supposed morals have changed and conveniently so for political reasons
Spongedog5@reddit
I’m not going to engage with you if you cannot express your own opinions. If I’m going to articles then you are cutting yourself out of the conversation. Either explain this definition of life that I supposedly don’t know about or cut out of the conversation. You refuse to actually say anything of your own in so many words.
Chawkinstein@reddit
I’m happy to express personal views but in terms of finding truth and coming to agreed consensus wouldn’t the opinion of experts or any data at all to back up our arguments be more appropriate?
I’d place a big bet that you’re not a developmental biologist, embryologist, geneticist, bioethicist, neuroscientist, reproductive physiologist, obstetrician, gynecologist, evolutionary biologist, medical ethicist, philosopher of science, molecular biologist, endocrinologist, or fertility specialist — so why then would your personal beliefs, especially those not backed by relevant data, matter whatsoever? I’m not appealing to authority as much as I’m recognizing that this “debate” isn’t novel and our views are not unique.
For the sake of defining your argument, and please let me know if I’m wrong: - you believe that life begins at conception and therefore abortion is immoral at any point in a pregnancy? — i.e in your view, consciousness, viability / dependency, personhood, success rate are all irrelevant
Elbarto83@reddit
Thats why I'll rarely, if ever, try to debate an issue like this with someone who thinks differently about it. You can't debate if there's no agreed upon reality, they'll never make me see a fetus as a viable person and I'll never be able to convince them otherwise. It's right up there with Climate change; for me, there is no debate because it's really happening and it's man-made. Santa Claus isn't real, he doesn't exist, you can't convince me otherwise. God doesn't exist, you can't convince me otherwise. Trump lost the 2020 election, you can't convince me otherwise and so on and so on. So instead I'll vote and cancel out someone's silly way of thinking and be done with it, that's all we can do and hope that's enough.
OmenQtx@reddit
I agree with almost everything. I could be convinced that God exists if anyone could produce irrefutable proof. I'm talking evidence that can be tested and repeated using the scientific method and cannot be explained in any other non-divine way. So far in all of human history, it's never been done.
Also, my grandfather was Santa Claus, and that's not up for debate. (Note, this is a joke based on my grandfather's extraordinary kindness and generosity of heart, and his long white beard.)
Everything else I agree with. I usually steer away from these topics for the same reason. There's just no civil debate if there aren't any agreed upon facts. I guess I was feeling argumentative today.
crusoe@reddit
Nah. Most people are incapable of broad abstract thinking and morality. Imagining themselves in someone else's shoes.
Most of the time this is due to lack of education, exposure to critical thinking and authoritarian parenting by their parents.
Vonauda@reddit
Conservative mindsets require local impact for them to conceptualize how it may affect them. As long as it never happens to their general family then its impossible to empathize.
Low IQ people are incapable of processing hypotheticals. What ifs don't work unless you have tangible, visible proof.
What happens if you combine those?
metalforhim777@reddit
It’s not conservative, it’s Boomer mindset as a whole. That scumbag generation should be eradicated from the world. They’re cold, unempathetic, narcissistic scumbags who should be taken away and never heard from again.
WildFEARKetI_II@reddit
A generation should be eradicated because they are in empathetic, cold, and narcissistic? Seems a little hypocritical
kingstante@reddit
I think you mean apathetic*
WildFEARKetI_II@reddit
Yep that’d be the better word, I was going for ‘unempathetic’ to use the language of the person I was replying to, but looks like they removed their comment
tuhrohlynn@reddit
Nice form, Karen. If you're not careful, you'll turn into your grandmother.
metalforhim777@reddit
What the fuck is that bizarre shit supposed to mean? You look like you literally made an account just to annoy me
Dallas-ModTeam@reddit
Your comment has been removed because it is a violation of Rule #3: Uncivil Behavior
Violations of this rule may result in a ban. Please review the r/Dallas rules on the sidebar before commenting or posting.
Send a message the moderators if you have any questions. Thanks!
noobbtctrader@reddit
They mean you sound like a boomer. But, to me, you just sound unhinged.
Dallas-ModTeam@reddit
Your comment has been removed because it is a violation of Rule #3: Uncivil Behavior
Violations of this rule may result in a ban. Please review the r/Dallas rules on the sidebar before commenting or posting.
Send a message the moderators if you have any questions. Thanks!
Dallas-ModTeam@reddit
Your post has been removed because it is a violation of Rule #5: Violence
Violations of this rule may result in a ban. Please review the /r/Dallas rules on the sidebar before commenting or posting.
Send a message the moderators if you have any questions. Thanks!
carbxine@reddit
Same can be said for liberal mindsets, what if the government wants to unalive us all but must take our weapons first so we have zero chance of defending ourselves. What ifs don’t work unless you have tangible, visible proof.
TTRedRaider27@reddit
if the government wanted you dead, your dinky ass AR isn't gonna stop them.
carbxine@reddit
Couldn’t stop farmers in the jungle,and fought in the mountains for 20 years… against people wearing scarves
ThatGuy972@reddit
And liberals seem to hyper imagine and exaggerate things and blame others when they are just being cheap or stupid.
I love that conservatives cant empathize with you sick fucks who want to just abort every inconvenience to you instead of taking responsibility and understand your own damn health care.
Frequent_End_9226@reddit
You mean understand denial of health care?
boldjoy0050@reddit
My dad started bitching about student loan forgiveness and I had to remind him that I would benefit from that. He was like "oh, umm, ok" and didn't even know what to say.
Horns8585@reddit
It is short sighted. I agree that they don't have empathy for most other people. But, the do still have empathy for their relatives. That is where they are short sighted, because they don't ever think it will happen to them.
lambchop90@reddit
I'm an obgyn sonographer in Texas. If a baby doesn't have a heartbeat it isn't considered an abortion and doesn't fall under the ban. They always try to use the least invasive procedure possible, meaning passing it on your own, then a pill that helps you pass it, then DNC. This was like this before the overturn of roe v Wade and it's the same after. This was just poor medical care.
There is literally no such thing as lifesaving abortion. If there is a complication where a mom could die even if her baby was below viability it is less risky for the mom to deliver the baby... Which is not the same as an abortion. Therefore the ban doesn't stop this. There is so much medical misinformation regarding this.
The worst thing I've seen is people going out of state to get a abortion and then not returning to that Dr for follow up care and then they have complications from the actual abortion, and seek care here where there is no records, or they don't seek care here at all because they are scared even though there is no reason to be.
Dandan0005@reddit
Tell it to the guy in the video whose wife was denied a D&C at two separate hospitals?
The issue isn’t that it’s an abortion, it’s that the treatment for an abortion and a miscarriage is the exact same.
This is why “exceptions” to the law are still so dangerous.
You’ve introduced confusion and fear of government punishment into care that fundamentally should only involve the doctor and the patient.
lambchop90@reddit
I think the husband needs to sue for medical malpractice, because there is no reason for it. Citing an OBGYN in Washington about the law here in Texas doesn't mean much to me when I work with over 16+ OBGYNs and have seen them do DNCs and prescribe Methotrexate just fine.
I understand you point, I'm just baffled, because no one should just let a woman bleed out after a miscarriage from fear of this law. It literally doesn't make any logical sense.
Dandan0005@reddit
Such are the consequences of the government sticking its nose into healthcare!
If only anyone had warned us about this.
ScarHand69@reddit
It’ll definitely start affecting most people when all of the good OB/GYNs leave the state…leaving all of the dregs behind. Then hospitals start announcing they are shutting down their labor & delivery wings because they don’t have enough OBs…or they fill them with fresh-out-of-school (cheap) PAs. It’s happening in Iowa right now.
Expect our already lousy maternal-mortality rate to get worse.
Adam-Marshall@reddit
😂 Stop trying to kill your unborn babies. 🤷♂️
JoyousMadhat@reddit
Idk man, it's not just the laws that is at fault here. How can any doctors see a woman bleeding or having a miscarriage and NOT HELP THEM??????
I wouldn't have cared what the law says when it means I save more lives.
Why is their job more important than people's lives when it is their fucking job to save lives? They should be charged as criminals
sweetpeat85@reddit
It’s the law. Would you be willing to risk jail time and leaving your family without a working parent to be able to do your job?
JoyousMadhat@reddit
But was there ever a modern case where the doctor was put into prison for taking out a dead fetus?
noncongruent@reddit
Not yet, but it's a matter of time. The only reason there's not been a doctor charged yet is because doctors are running scared and don't even want to get within earshot of these cases, much less the same room. Also, their insurers are likely telling them to avoid any kind of contact with these kinds of cases for liability reasons. Even though a doctor may be able to win in court, they're still going for the full criminal ride and that likely will end their career in the field of medicine. Letting one woman die to save hundreds or thousands of patients over a career is a terrible decision to have to make, but thanks to the GOP that's where we are now in this state. The fix is obvious, create strict medicine and science based definitions and rules and encode them in law, eliminate the ambiguity, but the GOP refuses to allow that to happen. The ambiguity is a feature and deliberate part of their law, and was specifically written to create this situation in the first place.
USMCLee@reddit
They would definitely get charged as murderers if they performed an abortion of the local Sheriff Cletus decides wasn't necessary or is running for re-election. Granbury is very much MAGAt country.
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
The wife in this story had a miscarriage.
USMCLee@reddit
And couldn't get an abortion to save her life.
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
She didn’t need an abortion. She needed to pass the tissue.
USMCLee@reddit
That is also considered an abortion. From elsewhere in the comments
As you can imagine there are wide variety of definitions of abortion. That is one of them.
It seems to be pretty good as it also covers an ectopic pregnancy. Which while the embryo is currently viable, it will eventually die with the woman if an abortion is not performed.
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
That may be someone’s interpretation on of a medical definition. But it does not apply to the law in Texas.
USMCLee@reddit
This is the most recent case. You can see why doctors are waiting until life threatening sepsis before performing an abortion.
This woman's death is directly related to the Texas' abortion law.
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
That’s why this story doesn’t pass the smell test.
shinywtf@reddit
It’s not just their jobs. They will be charged as criminals… if they do it. It is a felony, punishable with prison time.
Kollector79@reddit
Who decided these laws?
noncongruent@reddit
Republicans.
rosabb@reddit (OP)
Folks, thought i’d share this here. I feel like most people living in DFW are somewhat shielded from some things more rural texas experiences. Not sure if it’s accurate for all but certainly what i’ve seen.
I’m glad i’ll be here to vote and then making my way back home to the east next year. I thought I could make it work here in TX but my life nor my wife’s lives are worth sacrificing to try to change a state that isn’t getting it. Life here could’ve been beautiful.
Hope you all stay safe.
Glittering_Spite2000@reddit
This isn’t a political thing. This is a malpractice thing. My sister had the exact same situation in Houston two weeks ago and was treated with zero problems. Hospitals have an obligation to understand regulations and provide treatment in accordance with regs.
melanies420@reddit
Your profile is 5 days old with -6 karma's get out of here with your bs
Realistic-Molasses-4@reddit
What do I win with positive karma? Have you cashed yours in for career or life success?
melanies420@reddit
Actually yeah, I don't have to be a miserable waste of an existence and spend my time trolling like yourself, so yeah I would call that a success.
Realistic-Molasses-4@reddit
I'd say if you're keeping score with Reddit karma, your existence is pretty miserable, but that still doesn't answer my question. Is there like a ticket booth you traded your karma for like a college degree or a good job or something? I'm just trying to understand where the payoff is.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
Dallas-ModTeam@reddit
Your comment has been removed because it is a violation of Rule #3: Uncivil Behavior
Violations of this rule may result in a ban. Please review the r/Dallas rules on the sidebar before commenting or posting.
Send a message the moderators if you have any questions. Thanks!
Glittering_Spite2000@reddit
So sorry wise elder!
Pray, tell me what I said that was wrong …
ADinosaur_24@reddit
Because it is political you fckin moron. They literally made it against the law based on their feelings. WE ARE DYING. Just because republicans want to stick their noses in everyone’s business instead of minding their own
Did that explain it clearly or do I need to use smaller words?
Glittering_Spite2000@reddit
Take a breath and try to consider rationally what I said.
In 2/3 cases cited above, the hospitals did not act in accordance with the law.
The political policy did not kill anyone. Ignorance of regulation and fear of medical malpractice torts was the dangerous factor here.
ADinosaur_24@reddit
Shove that breath you want me to take, I can get fucking mad when idiots like you try to excuse policy decisions that are killing women and children
The doctors feared malpractice BECAUSE OF THE LAW.
Dallas-ModTeam@reddit
Your comment has been removed because it is a violation of Rule #3: Uncivil Behavior
Violations of this rule may result in a ban. Please review the r/Dallas rules on the sidebar before commenting or posting.
Send a message the moderators if you have any questions. Thanks!
Realistic-Molasses-4@reddit
Lol, mad at facts I see. I'm sorry someone is trying to offer a rational assessment of a rage bait post.
The dude went to standalone ERs instead of an actual hospital, and when they went to an actual hospital, they had the procedure done.
Nothing here prevented a doctor from doing their job, that's just a story you've made up in your head.
ADinosaur_24@reddit
Mad at the fact that this law is killing innocent women? Yes I fucking am. I daresay you came out of a vagina, so one would think you’d give a fuck about your own mother/sister/daughter, but clearly that is not the case.
Again, watch the video. I’m sick of wasting my time on idiots with their heads so far up their asses that they think this law isn’t fucking killing people when the video showed it you literally is.
Realistic-Molasses-4@reddit
I'm mad at this law, therefore it's not important that I tell the truth about the law because I'm sheathed in the light of righteousness? That sounds about right?
Get out of here with that nonsense. If you really think it's important, then don't support stories whose questionable facts undermine your purported beliefs that this is a bad law.
I watched the video. How do you think I could tell they went to a standalone ER? I went back to the original post, and surprise, it's a karma farming rage bait account (yep, not even posting their own video).
The more details you pick up on, the worse it gets. Like why was the video posted in the Corpus Christi subreddit, a city that is 5.5 hours away from Stephenville? They walked to another standalone ER in Granbury, which is even further away. How does that make sense?
At least be honest with yourself. You're not after facts, you're after that sweet self-righteous rage.
Dallas-ModTeam@reddit
Your comment has been removed because it is a violation of Rule #3: Uncivil Behavior
Violations of this rule may result in a ban. Please review the r/Dallas rules on the sidebar before commenting or posting.
Send a message the moderators if you have any questions. Thanks!
tkst3llar@reddit
Curious because people keep saying it was malpractice
Where in the law was OPs situation caused, or was it because doctor made wrong call?
Glittering_Spite2000@reddit
I mean, legally speaking, there is no abortion being performed if there is no heartbeat. So, the hospitals were acting twice shy when they had no reason for doing that. OP is blaming regulation in place of ignorance. Not making a judgment one way or the other, just saying that no law restricted the hospitals from acting appropriately in this case.
SuckItSaget@reddit
The TX abortion laws have made this within the scope of standard of care in Texas - not malpractice by definition (and their refusal to define at what point “the life of the mother” is endangered enough to perform a D&C will ensure that this continues)
Glittering_Spite2000@reddit
Reread your torts. Medical malpractice is never within the scope of standard of care. And removing a baby without a heartbeat is by no means considered an abortion in any hospital. This is pretty cut and dried. People who are upset seem to be looking for something to be upset about.
Realistic-Molasses-4@reddit
Welcome to /r/dallas. I said the exact same thing. This is basically a clickbait drama post (the original poster's account is full of posts like this). Any attempt to ask basic questions or provide facts is going to be downvoted to oblivion.
Real_Location1001@reddit
True, I think hospital systems like Memorial Hermann and Methodist and other s in the Houston area are large enough to weather a legal shitstorm that some smaller hospitals cannot. In some cases, enough legal exposure will sink them leaving already underserved areas with 0 emergency care. In any case, the notion that we as a people have reverted to mid 1900 problems is grotesque. Finally, evangelicals got their dipshit that will do anything for a pat on the back and now here we are. They WILL NOT take credit for the pain, suffering and death they have already started to inflict, but hey, they get to feel good about themselves. Fucking vile religious zealots unlike those we fought in the Middle East for over 20 years. Now they are in our backyard with the power of the state behind them.
willisbar@reddit
It’s both
Outrageous_Row4567@reddit
It’s so sad to think that the second largest state in the country has such draconian political perspective. What happened to the Texas of Anne Richards and Barbara Jordan???
MarcoEsteban@reddit
What has happened? I have been here the whole time, so I’ll tell you -
Ann Richard’s only served one term, before she was beaten by GW Bush, the “Compassionate Conservative” (LOL). He did actually tried to solve Undocumented Immigration as President, but was shot down by the Extreme Right of the Party. It started with the Southern Strategy to take over the Republican Party by wooing the southern Baptists and Evangelicals, the politics of mean, starting around the time of Newt Gingrich, followed by the complete takeover of State politics by Republicans. They now totally control the State, and religious conservatives totally control the party.
They’ve gerrymandered everything to where very few districts have anything in common throughout, the Supreme Court has ruled that’s A-OK, but there are enough lazy would be Democrat non-voters who think their vote doesn’t matter so they don’t vote or are convinced that raising taxes for the rich will impact them because they mistakenly believe that they are rich or think they will be one day, or they believe the BS about immigrants taking their jobs (it’s not the ones here they need to worry about, it’s US Corporations legally outsourcing their jobs to other, cheaper countries they need to worry about, and Republicans love that) so they vote Republican at the Statewide and National level, that they continue to win.
Then, we have DJ Trump, who, after his Party blocked Obama’s final SCOTUS nominee, nominated 3 young Hard Right Conservative Justices, who could be on the Court the rest of my life. They have made it so that our Republicans who run Texas could pass a law so extreme that it’s literally threatening the lives of women because doctors fear going to jail for helping them. And now, no one seems interested in even passing a law clarifying that it would be okay to extract a dead fetus to help a woman’s health. This is because these laws are not for the good of the people of Texas, they are about taking away the agency of specific people they want to control.
They long for the days when white men ran the world, and they will pass laws for as long as they are in control and are allowed to do so by SCOTUS which further this objective. They want a small, wealthy upper class, and everyone else serving them in low wage jobs, with no possibility of obtaining the same. They will pretend to love upper class Blacks, Asians, and Latinos, for as long as necessary to obscure what they really want, and they’ll take it away for themselves once they figure out how.
Think I’m being extreme with this? They’ve done it before (think the Tulsa Black Wall Street race massacre). And, there are polls that say 24% of the population think Hitler “had some good ideas”, and I don’t think those are Democrats. They need to be stopped. I think there was hope that if Donald Trump went away, they’d go back to being moderate. No, he just gave them cover to do what they really want to do. As long as they win races,in gerrymandered districts with just enough minorities who tend to vote Democrat - they don’t do 95% Republican districts, they do enough to ensure they will win, like R 65% to D 35% - and to keep an adjacent district form a minority majority, they will continue to got extreme with impunity.
They will say that Democrats are the racist or bigoted Party. Because they wanted to keep slavery, and was the Conservative Party. It is true that it used to be. But, the Southern Strategy cemented the switch from Conservative to Progressive for Democrats and the opposite for Republicans, however, Republicanism under Trump is not really Conservative, it’s elitist, populist, and leans more and more to fascism (a State run by and for elites - again, for them, that means white males), with Trump declaring he’ll use the military to eliminate political rivals, and his Republican minions lying about it saying he is talking about illegal immigrants (Adam Schiff and Kamala Harris were mentioned. Are they undocumented immigrants?).
I think the “why” has gotten lost, be a we have gotten so concerned about sounding racist that we think speaking out against white people taking power in an illegal and immoral way can be taken as racism (I’m a white male, by the way), that we are too timid to say why and we, as a nation, are trained to revere people who have gotten wealthy, thinking they did it all themselves, not with the help of tax incentives, publicity built roads and infrastructure, or through forced labor, earlier in our history. We are not taught all that. That, and we are close to, if not already are, a minority majority country. They are scared to lose all the power they have had for the last 200 years. And fearful they’ll be treated as poorly as they have treated minorities and women.
Oh, and greed. Why else want lower taxes for billionaires? Who needs a billion or more, all to themselves? You can’t spend that much in your life. Even I wouldn’t say confiscate 90% of a person’s wealth who has $100 billion. And I need to work on that with therapy. It could be done through implementing thresholds to ownership, making a company go public at a certain point, and limiting ownership of shares to a single person. It doesn’t have to be taken by the government, which would be communism. But a billion sounds like a good upper limit of wealth. CEOs in 1965 had an average income of 15 times that of the lowest paid employee. In 2021, it had risen to 399 times. That’s a 1460% rise, if you don’t want to do the math. Their income grows 11% a year. Ours is like, 2%. They are taking credit from their boards for our work. Why is is it patriotic to revere that?
Sorry that this has gotten so long. I always write a lot, especially when worked up. But, you asked what happened. This is pretty much it, in short form, 😂
TLDR: Republicans have taken over state politics and cemented their power through gerrymandering and voting laws, and a Conservative SCOTUS. And now, the country is in danger of a fascist takeover by elites (rich white men). Women in danger from miscarriages will be child’s play if they manage it.
InTheShade007@reddit
See ya. Come visit anytime
HOLYCRAPGIVEMEANAME@reddit
Man, I live there and we went to Harris SW in Fort Worth. Not messing with these places. Sucks they put y’all through that.
Impressive-Age7703@reddit
I don't blame you at all for leaving, I wish we could too. My husband is a civil engineer and would make significantly less than what he does in Texas if we moved. Job stability is also less as other states don't push roadway infrastructure as hard as Texas does.
SadAdministration438@reddit
I am in university currently for civil engineering and honestly, the job market I’ve heard is decent but if there is opportunity elsewhere, I might take it if the political climate doesn’t improve. This is coming from someone who has lived in DFW my whole life.
Realistic-Molasses-4@reddit
You're relocating back to where you came from because Texas has shitty politics? Uh, yeah, so did you not factor that into the decision before you moved here?
I don't know why you're glad you're voting here anyway, the system is a winner take all, so while it sounds good for upvotes, your vote is better used in a more competitive state.
This is dramatic clickbait of the grossest variety. There are any number of issues with the video in question (ex, why is the dude going to a standalone ER instead of an actual hospital). This dude is wasting hours when he could very easily have just gone to Fort Worth, which is driveable from Stephenville and Granbury.
I have two kids, and we had one miscarriage. Every time there was an issue with any pregnancy, we went to an actual hospital. It sounds like the guy's wife received a surgical intervention when she went to a facility that was able to provide that procedure.
StrangerThingies@reddit
Did you even watch the video? They weren’t turned away because the facilities couldn’t perform the procedure. The second place they went to was a hospital and would absolutely be able to perform a D&C. Sounds like you really don’t know anything about the procedure.
Realistic-Molasses-4@reddit
It was a standalone ER, a D&C is almost never done at standalone ER (and if you watch the video, they allege the doctor wouldn't prescribe her anything on her second visit). You can look up the facility (I did), it's basically a doc in a box. If you actually have experience a miscarriage, you'd probably know you don't even visit a standalone ER for that issue, and they certainly aren't doing a D&C. Other commenters with kids have also pointed this out.
The second place was not a hospital. It is a standalone ER affiliated with a hospital. The place that ultimately did it was an actual hospital.
Numerous other inconsistencies and red flags in the video. Ex, why is it in the Corpus Christi subreddit? Each facility they go to they're closer to Fort Worth, and the first standalone ER is in Stephenville (not close to Corpus).
1Startide@reddit
So you came down here to vote to change the laws in a state that isn’t yours, and that you won’t live in…and feel good about that. I agree with you on the reproductive rights issue - women should have the right to choose. However, I don’t agree with your tactics of changing laws in states where you won’t reside.
1Startide@reddit
I guess being against this modern form of carpet bagging isn’t very popular.
InsulinandnarcanSTAT@reddit
Sometimes I am ashamed to call this place home. For such a beautiful place, our government is run by such ugly people
Organic-Astronaut559@reddit
As somebody who lives in the city, you are indeed correct. I was not super aware of what goes on in the rest of the state because I’m definitely in an urban bubble. Education on the upcoming election made me realize that indeed, yes, this state is fucked up.
stevil30@reddit
i spent 7 years working at corner emergency rooms such as Surepoint. Working at one through covid broke my soul and i'm still recovering. they are not to be trusted. You could get a doc who's been doing ER's for 20 years or you could get a doc who is googling answers.
Alt-account9876543@reddit
Thank you for sharing this - I wish more men would speak up and defend the women in their lives. This affects all of us. Appreciate your post
scsibusfault@reddit
As a man, I did, and still do. Even without children myself, it's insane to want to allow anyone to experience this. Obviously not my wife, but I can extend that empathy to literally any woman I know.
It's the biggest reason we left TX as well. I don't plan on having children, but accidents happen, we're not actively trying to avoid it. I would be absolutely terrified for 9 months that there'd be complications - and again, I have enough empathy to realize it would be so much worse for my wife. Even without complications, the stress of worrying that there could be, and knowing that Texas would probably recommend she just try dying a little first would be horrible.
We marched for the Roe protests. I marched. I saw a lot of men there. We were all ripshit pissed. It's just not enough, and I was sick of worrying about it. It's not fair to women, and I hope it changes. I just can't put my family in that kind of stress and risk any longer.
msondo@reddit
Granbury is about as close to Fort Worth as Cleburne, so it’s very close to home for us in DFW.
Educational_Weird_64@reddit
Never liked living in Dallas Tx, it’s a shit show in my opinion & the only reason that’s stopping me from moving out is because I don’t have enough money nor a driver’s license to drive far from Tx
Looking4it69@reddit
My sister had an abortion, and is now so anti-abortion you would think they took out her soul as well as a fetus.
I don’t understand that mentality (I got mine, so fuck you), but knowing my sister, its not surprising . . . .
cafeitalia@reddit
So she is anti abortion after she experienced an abortion and you with zero experience can not understand her feelings. That makes sense. Maybe try to gain an actual experience before you judge her.
Tex_Watson@reddit
STFU
Dallas-ModTeam@reddit
Your comment has been removed because it is a violation of Rule #3: Uncivil Behavior
Violations of this rule may result in a ban. Please review the r/Dallas rules on the sidebar before commenting or posting.
Send a message the moderators if you have any questions. Thanks!
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
Seriously? Have you gone through it, “Tex”?
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
Maybe she is speaking and acting from her own lived experience? Maybe it was traumatic for her.
Looking4it69@reddit
I’ve no doubt it was, and that choice was 100% hers to make. But to turn the tables on other women who may face that same difficult choice, is not fair nor reasonable either.
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
It’s not likely she sees it that way. To be transparent I am pro choice but anti-abortion. I don’t like it, I think it’s wrong…but I believe women should have autonomy over their own bodies. Everyone makes their choices in life.
That being said, she may think no woman should have to go through it, the aftermath, the trauma. Not a normal way of dealing with it, but it may be what keeps her sane. Who knows.
darkpaladin@reddit
https://joycearthur.com/abortion/the-only-moral-abortion-is-my-abortion/
shinywtf@reddit
“Double down” is a surprisingly common response in a situation like this. It’s guilt, redirected, placing the blame elsewhere.
Not saying it’s what happened to your sister, not enough detail to go on.
But what happens sometimes to other is:
A person holds some “pro life” beliefs. Maybe strongly, maybe barely. But some thoughts that abortion is wrong.
Then they experience the need for an abortion. Maybe they feel conflicted about it. Maybe not. Either way, they go through with it.
Now we have a problem. We have a mismatch between actions and thoughts/beliefs. This is called cognitive dissonance. It is very uncomfortable. The brain seeks to bring things into alignment. We can’t change the action- it is done. The only choice is to change the thoughts/beliefs.
Changing the thoughts/beliefs to be in alignment with the action is the hardest path. It means admitting you were wrong before the action. This is nearly impossible for some people.
Much easier is to decide you were right the whole time, and it’s someone else’s fault that you took the out of alignment action. You had no choice! You were duped! It was too easy! It should be banned! You shouldn’t have been allowed to do the thing you wanted to do! It’s their fault!
Furthermore, to really “prove” it, the person doubles down and becomes even more very vocally against abortion or whatever it is. So that others don’t make their same “mistake.” So that it is harder to do, so that others won’t be “tempted” like they were.
Again, don’t know if this is what happened to your sister. Maybe she was pro choice to start. But the end result would be the same- displaced guilt, placing blame externally.
Realistic-Molasses-4@reddit
https://couriertexas.com/dfw/2024/06/24/texas-mom-incomplete-miscarriage/
The original post in /r/CorpusChristi is apparently just karma farming Ryan Hamilton's story from June.
No D&C was needed or performed at any of the facilities. His wife was prescribed misoprostol at the first facility, which didn't perform the D&C, and the second facility made the same decision. The third facility just gave her fluids and confirmed the drugs worked.
She was given fluids at the third hospital, and they confirmed she passed the pregnancy with the drugs she was given at the first facility. You can read between the lines and understand why he isn't suing either of the first two hospitals because their recommended course of treatment did, in fact, work.
The entire story is a problematic example if you're trying to say the Texas ban on abortion is bad (which I, personally, think it is).
rosabb@reddit (OP)
Thanks for sharing this.
From the article, A D&C would’ve prevented her bleeding out, there was no reason other than fear (as the article claims) to not perform one.. The point of the post (I gathered) is that the law incites fear from medical professionals who shouldn’t have to face the possibility of losing their livelihood to treat their patients.
I wrote this and remembered I don’t like arguing with internet strangers. Will keep since written. Thanks for sharing again.
Realistic-Molasses-4@reddit
I'm not sure you're getting the complete details stated the article. It says there were no places to refer the couple to and that the course of treatment she was given is generally effective. The physician (there were two quoted in the article) was not stating that the doc in the box or the Granbury facility should have performed the D & C. The issue was underdosing here.
The point of the post doesn't matter if it's not accurate, and in fact, I think it undermines the point you're trying to make. If your point is "Texas bans abortion, it hurts women" then just say that. We all know it's true. There's no reason to post some (possibly ripped off) story from r/CorpusChristi, which again is not close to the area this story takes place in.
The ban on abortion in Texas is bad, it's Reddit, I think we can all agree on that. It's always been bad in Texas. It's a shame Democrats on a national level sacrificed women's healthcare so Ginsburg could continue being a girlboss into her 80s, and then botched a pretty winnable presidential campaign.
Unfortunately, no amount of voting in Texas can fix those problems. I would advise anyone moving to the state to carefully consider how much they think our shitty politics might personally affect them.
BikiniBottomObserver@reddit
Man, my wife is pregnant and we’re closely approaching the due date. I am TERRIFIED something like this will happen. We both vote, but that wasn’t enough to keep access to safe abortions in the event we needed one. If the worst were to happen, I’m unsure what I’d do. But I certainly don’t want my wife to die because some religious nuts believe their personal faith should be law.
False_Ambassador_491@reddit
I'm also in the Dallas area (for now), and I work in pregnancy/labor/birth/postpartum as a care provider. Not only is this happening, but I had a colleague share a horrible story as it was unfolding about a mom having a late (2nd trimester) miscarriage. Throughout the miscarriage she was cared for by a state licensed midwife, since midwives are trained to manage miscarriages and have access to the medications that are needed just in case. The family wanted to bury their baby. When they took the fetal remains to a mortician, the mortician called the police and this mom was nearly arrested and accused of willfully terminating her pregnancy. A CPS case was opened and the family is STILL dealing with the nightmare of a legal system. The state wants to put her in jail because she had a miscarriage and lost her very wanted baby. All this despite the midwife voluntarily (and of course with client consent) providing impeccable care records (charts) for the duration of the pregnancy. Had the midwife not had her legal documents in order, she also would have been pursued criminally.
In Texas, if a person is having a miscarriage or suspects one, please please please call a midwife. Midwives are super huge proponents for proactive reproductive healthcare, and will be much more likely to have a ton of actually helpful and beneficial resources that can be utilized such as funeral homes that provide services without calling the cops, bereavement programs, referrals to therapists that specialize in pregnancy loss, etc. Midwives also have a layer of protection with legal health records that can help be a buffer between doctors that are terrified to treat miscarriages until things like is shown in this video. what I've said only applies to midwives licensed by the state of Texas.
Ok. I'll jump off my soap box now.
rosabb@reddit (OP)
Thank you for sharing. Very sorry for that poor family. Trying to figure out how to pin this to the top of thread.
A-Rae2012@reddit
I think this is bullshit lol. I had a missed miscarriage, and they asked if I wanted to pass the baby naturally or take misoprostol to help induce the passing of the baby on my own. I chose D&C and got it scheduled. Then they didn't end up getting the baby out all the way and I was passing clots, so they then prescribed misoprostol... Never ran into any issues..... This has NOTHING to do with the abortion ban.
Particular-Edge5693@reddit
Ok, you are a dumbass if it was as bad as you say, then why did you continue to go to hospitals in small podunk towns? OP was an hour away from Ft. Worth, why did he not take his wife there where there were more competent doctors?
TangoXraySierra@reddit
Bruv.
What are we talking about? Where is the topic in the title line?
Dont get angry with your viewers if we shut this off after 10 seconds of nothing.
vintagevista@reddit
I watch this and wonder how it's even considered an abortion if there isn't a heart beat. How can somebody even argue that an abortion would have been performed in this case? Awful, awful, awful.
Spare_Ad_9657@reddit
I grew up in Brownwood, close to Stephenville. The rural Texans are the ones who vote the most for these laws, but also will eventually suffer from them. By that time it’s too late. It’s so freaking heartbreaking. 💔
meganthebest@reddit
I grew up in Granbury. That hospital is atrocious and the town is predominantly older conservatives. Nothing about this story surprises me but damn it’s so heart breaking. It just shouldn’t be like that.
TheNiallRiver@reddit
I live in Granbury currently and they misdiagnosed my pulmonary embolism for a muscle sprain😭thankfully I went to Weatherford but the hell with this city😭😭
meganthebest@reddit
I believe you. Growing up if you were conscious you knew to say “take me anywhere but Granbury”.
TheNiallRiver@reddit
It was a life and death situation after the bad experience we had with our son who had a seizure. The pathetic-ass doctor even told us that just cause he’s some hillbilly doc, that he wouldn’t urge us to take him to cook children’s. My son had another seizure less than 12 hours after that. Thankfully, we went regardless but the hell with those physicians and nurses who praise the hospital😭
erybody_wants2b_acat@reddit
I too just survived one of those. I’m sorry you had to travel so far for care but I’m glad you’re here and recovering!
TheNiallRiver@reddit
Omg I’m glad you’re here too! Hopefully they prescribed you some anticoagulants that aren’t injectables! That’s what mine have been so far but they have saved my life! It’s been almost a year this thanksgiving and was caused due to my pregnancy. Thankfully nothing happened to my baby but still. I never, ever want to go through that pain and would rather give birth without medication over and over than feel that. That’s what made my husband get a vasectomy. Hell to the no, never want to have that again.
This was all a month after my 1 year old son at the time, had a seizure and they said nothing was wrong with him. Thank god we listened to our guts and took him to cook children’s cause he had another seizure less than 12 hours after the 1st. Stupid doctor even told us “I’m not trying to sound like a hillbilly doctor but you don’t need to go to cooks!” So being there for a suspicion of my embolism was literally a life and death situation. Lmao I hate this hospital, so I don’t mind driving an extra 45 minuets - 1 hour.
texan01@reddit
I went to school in Stephenville, and the only things I heard about the hospital in S'ville or Granbury, was that you were better off going to Fort Worth.
False_Ambassador_491@reddit
Yep. Fort worth has a great hospital for pregnant folks with doctors and midwives that collaborate together, and they actually seem to give a shit about pregnant folks. Granbury and Stephenville are way out there. I have seen clients who will travel from S'ville to N FW (it's like a 2 hr drive) to see a prenatal care provider.
Cute-Gear-6774@reddit
It’s not even that the hospitals are shitty (though that might also be true). This is happening all over the US in states where abortion has been banned. Doctors can lose their license to practice for performing life-saving abortion care.
meganthebest@reddit
We agree. In this sub and r/Texas there are discussions regarding good doctors leaving Texas. Quality of care in a global sense will continue to decline if doctors fear for their careers over this.
Cute-Gear-6774@reddit
Such a good point.
nonsuspiciousfrog@reddit
I tried going to school in Stephenville and skipped most of the semester just because the people there were so violently close-minded, I had multiple threats against my life from total strangers just for being queer. I wish people in rural areas would just get it together
virgo_em@reddit
Went to school in Stephenville. I remember all of the very minimal pride stuff that was put up on campus (just ribbons around trees) being pulled down a shredded. I also remember getting an email sent to the whole student body that was literally just, “you cannot harass your black peers”. Going from Dallas to there for school was insane.
TMRat@reddit
This would never happen outside USA.
TurnipdaBeet3812@reddit
Fake AF
pickme20@reddit
I was a Republican until Trump. Please, men, wake up! Let's protect the women (and children) in our lives. Religion can be practiced individually and should not be forced upon others. Letting women suffer like this is simply inhuman and cruel. Let abortion be between her and her doctor, like it should. Republicans were for family once. It is no longer. Let's force them to go back to their roots by voting every one of them out!
imalwayshongry@reddit
Cue the smooth brains here to tell us a miscarriage is not an abortion.
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
I’ll bite. It’s NOT.
imalwayshongry@reddit
Correct, but providers are denying treatment as if they’re the same because of their fears surrounding the abortion ban. Pro lifers seem to think that isn’t actually happening and using the difference between the two to sort their break from reality.
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
I don’t think this is happening. If you read up thread there are commenters who are ob/gym practitioners who say anyone having a miscarriage is getting care. That is standard.
The argument that doctors are afraid doesn’t add up. Doctors make life and death (hopefully lifesaving) decisions every day. They face malpractice every single day. The Texas law is clear that medically necessary post miscarriage care is distinct from abortion. Any doctor who deals with women’s health would know this.
This video is suspect, for several reasons. Why didn’t he take her to the hospital and not urgent care? Urgent care is always going to defer to the person’s specialist. And they are never going to do a surgical procedure like a d&c. Where was her ob/gyn anyway? A lot of things don’t add up in this story. Where is the wife? It would be much more credible if the story came from her.
dkleehammer@reddit
This is what I was thinking. It feels like a video created to try and drive the political landscape using fear. There is no national abortion ban on any docket - seems fear based propaganda.
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
It doesn’t seem sincere. Let the downvotes rain down
dkleehammer@reddit
Oh, they will come.
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
I’m ready
dkleehammer@reddit
From a comment below: https://www.reddit.com/r/Dallas/s/KsdFVAclwb
dkleehammer@reddit
Check this out from below:
https://couriertexas.com/dfw/2024/06/24/texas-mom-incomplete-miscarriage/
The original post in r/CorpusChristi is apparently just karma farming Ryan Hamilton’s story from June.
No D&C was needed or performed at any of the facilities. His wife was prescribed misoprostol at the first facility, which didn’t perform the D&C, and the second facility made the same decision. The third facility just gave her fluids and confirmed the drugs worked.
She was given fluids at the third hospital, and they confirmed she passed the pregnancy with the drugs she was given at the first facility. You can read between the lines and understand why he isn’t suing either of the first two hospitals because their recommended course of treatment did, in fact, work.
The entire story is a problematic example if you’re trying to say the Texas ban on abortion is bad (which I, personally, think it is).
Netprincess@reddit
I am a native brown and bred 5th generation and I actually loathe my state now.
walkinonyeetstreet@reddit
If i had a wife, someone i cared about more than anyone else in this world, id have held those doctors at gunpoint while they did the operation to save her life. Fuck all this bullshit, so many suffering women getting blamed like its their fault their bodies decided to keep a dead fetus is absolutely disgraceful behavior.
Dieselgeekisbanned@reddit
Where in Dallas did this happen?
jisuanqi@reddit
Fucking horrible that we live in the US and this is allowed to happen.
The supporters of these policies wouldn't hesitate to get similar care for their livestock, were one of their cows in a similar state, and it'd be readily provided.
mpizgatti@reddit
I don't think most people who think about this for more than 2 seconds disagree that there should be exceptions in the law. I'm sure there already are a few but it sounds like they need to be ironed out and defined a little better.
Redditluvs2CensorMe@reddit
This IS bullshit propaganda.
ASSUMING any of this is true/accurate, this story has NOTHING to do with the state law.
OP basically went to an urgent care center first where they can’t really do much and was likely told to follow up with their regular OBGYN. I HIGHLY doubt an urgent care center would actually prescribe misoprostol on their own anyway.
Assuming story is correct, then if patient showed up a the Lake Granbury Medical Center, then they should have been seen by a gynecologist who would be able to evaluate the need for a D&C to remove the non-viable conceptus, especially if the patient was looking like they were becoming septic. If that didn’t happen, then that would be more of a medical error than a problem with state policy.
This is pure propaganda and elements of it aren’t believable in the first place, like an urgent care center or stand-alone ER prescribing misoprostol.
dkleehammer@reddit
From a comment below: https://www.reddit.com/r/Dallas/s/KsdFVAclwb
https://couriertexas.com/dfw/2024/06/24/texas-mom-incomplete-miscarriage/
The original post in r/CorpusChristi is apparently just karma farming Ryan Hamilton’s story from June.
No D&C was needed or performed at any of the facilities. His wife was prescribed misoprostol at the first facility, which didn’t perform the D&C, and the second facility made the same decision. The third facility just gave her fluids and confirmed the drugs worked.
She was given fluids at the third hospital, and they confirmed she passed the pregnancy with the drugs she was given at the first facility. You can read between the lines and understand why he isn’t suing either of the first two hospitals because their recommended course of treatment did, in fact, work.
The entire story is a problematic example if you’re trying to say the Texas ban on abortion is bad (which I, personally, think it is).
USMCLee@reddit
If you have been paying attention, this is actually just one story among many.
Just because it highlights one of the biggest problems with our law, doesn't mean it is not true.
GhostTraveler27@reddit
A d&c is not an abortion and is still legal and commonly performed in Texas for non-viable pregnancies. IF the provided information is true, it is negligence and malpractice, nothing more. This has nothing to do with Texas laws and is propaganda and misinformation. -RN in TX
Spongedog5@reddit
The law allows for life-saving medical care, if that care failed to be provided it isn't the state's fault, it's the practitioner's. I don't know since when it became controversial that doctors should be made to make judgement calls on what medical care is necessary and to be held responsible for them. If anyone should be able to, it's them. And if those judgement calls somehow were impossible to make (they aren't), then we shouldn't be taking a life in uncertainty.
TheMcMcMcMcMc@reddit
All of those doctors that you want to throw under the bus are worried what the 10th dentist will say in court.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=The%20Tenth%20Dentist
Spongedog5@reddit
Doctors have already been responsible for their medical decisions forever. They’ve always seemed to manage with the tenth dentist, this is no different.
TheMcMcMcMcMc@reddit
False. The difference now is a felony liability.
Spongedog5@reddit
If I shoot someone randomly, I get hit with a felony. If I shoot someone who is shooting at others, I am exonerated for doing the right thing.
These doctors are taking a life to save a life. It’s a very serious issue. A serious decision should come with serious consequences, because if the procedures is unnecessary, we end up with someone dead for no reason.
Someone has to take up the burden of making this decision. The only people qualified are doctors. If we are going to accept abortive care, then we have to do it in a way that always tries to save the most lives, and only doctors can confirm that.
TheMcMcMcMcMc@reddit
Great speech. I remain unconvinced that doctors should be thrown under the bus, and unconvinced that so-called pro-life voters are looking out for Texas women at one of the most vulnerable times in their lives.
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
Who’s throwing doctors under the bus?
TheMcMcMcMcMc@reddit
Move along
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
You seem like someone who needs a friend.
TheMcMcMcMcMc@reddit
In that case, move along
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
Aww. And we were doing so well.
OmenQtx@reddit
In the case of the video, the heartbeat was confirmed multiple times to be absent, and the patient was still turned away because of the law.
Spongedog5@reddit
Because of the failure of the doctors to recognize the life threatening situation. The law allows for an abortive procedure in this case. It was entirely the failure of the medical professionals to recognize the necessity of the procedure.
PolkaDotTat@reddit
Idk, maybe the part of Texas I live at is different but I was given the choice of having an abortion at the five or six month point because of health issues I and/or my baby could have. I did a genetics test and found I was a carrier of a genetic disorder and was given the option to test my baby and decide what to do then. I’m sure there are horror stories of people who don’t have the same experience, but I don’t think it’s like that for everyone. I’m guessing where you live in Texas has a part to do with it though
Libro_Artis@reddit
Election Day is Nov 5th. Vote
JmeJV@reddit
Early voting starts next Monday, October 21st!!!
Comfortable_Wish586@reddit
Blue up&down the ballot, and get as many Texans to do the same. We need to show up in numbers to change our govs
I added articles here explaining what has happened after RoevWade was overturned. There are no excuses. Texas Republicans at every turn have created this mess. It DOESN'T have to be this way. Its fucking healthcare for a reason! Pay attention, and make them pay at the ballot box! Vote Against them up&down the ballot!
https://www.reddit.com/r/texas/s/AiDl8yTT68
I didn't even include the bill the Texas Republicans passed in both the House & Senate Legislature that made bounty hunting reward for women who got abortions, and made women getting healthcare a crime for both the woman and the healthcare providers
https://guides.sll.texas.gov/abortion-laws/history-of-abortion-laws#:~:text=A%20judgment%20in%20a%20Supreme,effect%20on%20August%2025%2C%202022.
shamshe33@reddit
This is so fucked up... why can we not have common sense abortion laws??? WHY DO WE HAVE TO HAVE ALL OR NOTHING??? Why are we limiting doctors from doing their jobs properly by ridiculous laws that prevent proper medical care?
Chance-Knee-3246@reddit
Fuck Texas for embracing those GOP crooks that ruined a good state.
jcarcher83@reddit
Everyone complaining, saying they want to leave Texas,
Please do.
Outrageous_Row4567@reddit
This is heartbreaking! When will vote for their interests?
Vewlop@reddit
Didn't she die because she tried to take care of it herself?
USMCLee@reddit
No. She had a miscarriage and couldn't get an abortion because her health wasn't in danger enough.
ResonanceCompany@reddit
Fuck the Republican freaks who caused this. They deserve to die screaming.
Imadevonrexcat@reddit
None of this makes any sense. A miscarriage is not an abortion. The baby has no heartbeat / is dead.
no1toknowone@reddit
Fuck politicians and fuck their policies. We can govern ourselves.
USMCLee@reddit
Odd how the party that is supposed to be all about freedom and liberty want to turn women into property of the state.
unwanted_zombie@reddit
I'm just saying, if my wife is ever in a situation like this- I'm going to be putting a lot of these malignant tumors cosplaying in lab coats "close enough to death" to finally receive treatment themselves. Is that gonna help the situation? No, but that woman saved my life and I'll be damned if this backwards ass state government stops me.
Dizzy-Concentrate284@reddit
trump did this. His Supreme Court did this. Republicans did this. It's time to get rid of all of them.
Relevant-Doctor187@reddit
If it’s that bad drive to New Mexico. Run up a credit card if you have to for gas. Don’t wait to die in Texas.
I wish those hospitals could be sued. The doctors violated their oaths as well. They should be decertified.
Deep-Stranger1335@reddit
Get over it. States choose. Change the laws.
cbear0212@reddit
Republican lawmakers in Texas will NEVER allow abortion to reach the ballot. We have to vote them out starting next month with Ted Cruz. Vote Allred. Vote blue down the ballot.
Slinkeh_Inkeh@reddit
I'm sorry, what are we saying to "get over"? A woman almost dying due to lack of care?
Deep-Stranger1335@reddit
Sorry, I wasn't talking about the lady. I'm glad she ok. Just law.
Danethol@reddit
You're glad she's ok? Even though the policies you apparently support are the direct reason she ended up in this situation?
anon_enuf@reddit
Jesus Christ the states is all sorts of evil.
As a parent, I'm so sorry.
I don't even know what else to say.
Whatsinthebox84@reddit
Texas is done. This place is cooked.
swift_trout@reddit
Thank you
KnockMeYourLobes@reddit
This is the kind of shit that scares the living daylights out of me, tbh.
The second (and last) pregnancy I had ended in a D&C after finding out there was no heartbeat from the baby (I was approx 10 weeks pregnant) and it hadn't grown since my previous scan two weeks prior.
My doctor sent me home to miscarry but when that didn't happen (because my body is an asshole at doing things it's SUPPOSED to do all on its own), I had to have a D&C.
Part of me is SO so glad this happened when it did (about 11 years ago) rather than now. And I'm terrified that even though I'm probably pretty close to perimenopause (I'm 46) that I'll get pregnant (even though I'm on birth control) and it won't go well.
lambchop90@reddit
This is exactly what still happens here in Texas. Nothing has changed regarding this. A DNC after miscarriage is not an abortion and has nothing to do with abortion. It is perfectly legal in Texas to get an DNC after miscarriage in Texas. Why is everyone so confused about this?
KnockMeYourLobes@reddit
Still scares the shit out of doctors to do them, though, apparently. Because (at least from my understanding) it's functionally the same thing as an abortion, except on a live fetus instead of a dead one.
And it still scares me that if I were to get pregnant and something were to go wrong, I wouldn't be able to get the care I need.
lambchop90@reddit
I understand your concern, and you of course have every right to feel that way. I currently work with 16 different obgyns in the DFW area, and none of them have had any concerns about performing the procedure when dealing with a miscarriage.
blancsterrific@reddit
I had a D&C in Plano, TX recently after a miscarriage with zero issues. This wasn't an abortion case. This is a miscarriage that required a D&C. This is gross malpractice.
Intol3rance@reddit
Fuck Trump. Fuck MAGA. Fuck Abbott. Fuck Cruz. Fuck Paxton. Fuck the Republicans.
Vote blue in this upcoming election! Men, do it for your daughters, wives, and future generations!
Organic-Astronaut559@reddit
This!
grendus@reddit
This is the part that still baffles me.
I understand the "pro-life" position that the fetus has a right to life. I disagree with it, but there's a rational flow where "fetus has right to life, fetus' right to life outweighs mother's right to bodily autonomy, no abortion". I'm sure someone just got reflexively irate and wants to clap back with some argument about "forcing people to donate kidneys" or something, but... don't. I already don't agree with this stance, I'm just saying it's at least logically consistent. Any downstream weirdness is outside the bounds of the discussion given that I already yield the point.
But a miscarriage no longer has a right to life. He's dead, Jim. It's no longer about right-to-life, now it's about some weird punishment fetish to the woman.
I don't get it. Like it's just cruelty, and I don't understand. I can understand people who are all about saving the "poor little babies", though you'd think they'd also push for better support for them after they're born (and some do, but not nearly enough). But in the case of a miscarriage, when a doctor has determined that the fetus is nonviable or already dead... what's the purpose? Because it seems like the cruelty is the point, but they get angry when you say that.
I know cruelty is the point. But as someone who doesn't find cruelty entertaining, I just... don't get it.
No_Resolution_9252@reddit
Here is the actual law: https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/HS/htm/HS.170A.htm#170A.003
Xankth@reddit
The problem with this law is that anyone can come in after the abortion is done and argue that the conditions for a legal abortion were not met. The law doesn't take the DRs word as final because if it did every abortion would be legal. Every pregnancy poses a threat to the mother's life and long-term health. The law is garbage and killing women. The people voting for and defending such laws are garbage and killing women.
No_Resolution_9252@reddit
That isn't what the law says.
Xankth@reddit
It is what the law says. I think you are misunderstanding it.
Sec. 170A.004. CRIMINAL OFFENSE. (a) A person who violates Section 170A.002 commits an offense.
This one line opens a DR performing any abortion to being accused of criminal activity. All that needs to happen is for someone to argue that the mother would have lived without the abortion.
cafeitalia@reddit
Arguing about conditions doesn’t matter. Court would decide any outcome if needed. And no cases have occurred in the courts yet for emergency procedures. The fear mongering bs has been way out of hand.
OmenQtx@reddit
https://www.txcourts.gov/media/1457645/230994pc.pdf
Xankth@reddit
Hospitals run on money—money they do not want to spend in court. You admit to the possibility of a lawsuit by using "yet" in your argument. Women hating whackjobs are constantly bringing lawsuits for one reason or another over abortion. One of the whackjobs, Attorney General of Texas Ken Paxton is suing the federal government for the right to access patients' out-of-state medical records. I don't have to fearmonger when the people I am arguing about are monsters.
TheMcMcMcMcMc@reddit
A single page with awful consequences. People who wrote it and passed it should be voted out and never allowed back in.
No_Resolution_9252@reddit
You should read it
TheMcMcMcMcMc@reddit
I did. Go ahead and quiz me.
cafeitalia@reddit
If you read it you would know that law provides right to exercise care in certain conditions. And those conditions fit the subject matter of the thread.
TheMcMcMcMcMc@reddit
If you read it you would know that those rights depend on a hypothetical situation and the interpretation of what “reasonable” means. Cases of women having a medical need for abortions have already gone to court to test how strong those rights are, and courts have ruled against women every time. If you read it, you would also know that there is no legal mechanism that would let a doctor know how their decision would be interpreted in court. If you read it, you would know that if a court decided to second guess a doctor, then that doctor wouldn’t just lose their license in Texas, they would be a felon and subjected to financial ruin. Whether you read it or not, tragedies like the one that OP posted are happening. Whether you read it or not, this is the law that causes these tragedies to happen. Whether you read it or not, courts confirmed that these tragedies are acceptable based on this law. And if Texans don’t use the power of their vote to fix this, then they will continue to be complicit in these tragedies, and even worse tragedies.
No_Resolution_9252@reddit
Keep lying
TheMcMcMcMcMc@reddit
I’ve got receipts https://www.txcourts.gov/media/1457645/230994pc.pdf
No_Resolution_9252@reddit
Did you read it? Because this is as obvious a false flag as there ever has been.
Doctor sues over an issue that hadn't been raised, intentionally doesn't put forward any relevant argument to win the dog whistle law suit and the court specifically states preauthorization was never necessary.
TheMcMcMcMcMc@reddit
Keep lying
Dick_Lazer@reddit
It should also be noted Texas has repeatedly fought to not allow emergency exceptions, and with the Supreme Court packed with far right extremist judges they are winning as of now. https://apnews.com/article/supreme-court-emergency-abortion-texas-bf79fafceba4ab9df9df2489e5d43e72
OttoFilletGeo@reddit
Cant you just go to a state where it's legal?
Oracle365@reddit
I'm not one to call for violence...
hlrnetx78@reddit
It is sad that this happened. But, blame the medical people who did not take care of the woman, not the Texas abortion law. The baby’s was dead. It had no heartbeat. It was not an abortion decision.
How do they call this anything but propaganda when it concludes with a statement about voting.
Typical_Carpet_4904@reddit
Get the fucking rollerfascist out of office already, and wheel his felonious cronies out with him.
tuhrohlynn@reddit
Lets all exploit the emotions of others to tell them their views make them a piece of shit... ready... go!
CrazyWombat69@reddit
My cousin works in a hospital in Dallas, when they need an emergency abortion, I think they send them to New Mexico. Quite sad that it has to happen.
Futuralistic@reddit
VOTE BLUE if you care about your future
fiddlegirl@reddit
And not just for the presidential seat -- be sure to vote downballot as well!
bumblefoot99@reddit
One of the things that bothers me the most is no one is protesting in the streets or at all. At least not that I have seen.
Women are dying & babies are suffering - yet I haven’t seen nor heard a goddamn peep.
Thank you for posting this heartbreaking story. I don’t live in TX but I do business there. Me & my partners are currently discussing ending all trade with the state because of this barbaric ban.
Elegant_Guitar_535@reddit
This shit is real and I went through it with my wife in San Antonio. This party of Trump is no longer the GOP. It is a hate filled draconian party that will inflict suffering on millions if given the opportunity. VOTE
schwaggro@reddit
I sincerely hope those responsible for this suffer immensely. Both mentally and physically. Fuck em to death.
magicj3@reddit
The ones that voted for this will be the ones who will end up suffering the most.
Portast@reddit
So they got an abortion and it went wrong? How is the ban related to this?
Dick_Lazer@reddit
I could see incels not being familiar with the problems women face but are the basics of reproductive health not taught in schools anymore ?
USMCLee@reddit
In Texas? No. Nothing close to reproductive health.
To grasp how medieval Texas has become they removed any discussion about consent from the reproductive health classes.
LordofMylar@reddit
Did you even bother watching?
GlobalInflation8589@reddit
No, dumb dumb. It was a miscarriage. There was no heartbeat. Use your brain a little and actually listen to the video. My goodness.
They needed to dismember the baby in order to remove it from her uterus as it was causing her to bleed.
The procedure is akin to an abortion so doctors are reluctant to perform it unless it meets the emergency criteria under statute.
Dallas-ModTeam@reddit
Your comment has been removed because it is a violation of Rule #3: Uncivil Behavior
Violations of this rule may result in a ban. Please review the r/Dallas rules on the sidebar before commenting or posting.
Send a message the moderators if you have any questions. Thanks!
WallstreetChump@reddit
No, his wife suffered a miscarriage but the doctors refused to remove the dead fetus because of the laws implemented with the abortion ban
M-Raines@reddit
I have a hereditary illness I was born with. A blood, heart and lung disease. I want to have children, but I’m afraid I will die in the state of Texas because my pregnancy would be considered very high risk. I feel that the state of Texas would rather see me and unborn child dead, if anything were to go wrong, and there is a high chance of that happening. I’m am terrified of the state of Texas. This video just confirmed that no woman should have children in Texas. Thank you so much for making and showing us this video. This confirms everything I’ve felt. I’m from Massachusetts, but I’ve lived in Dallas for 30 years, and I feel that New England is the only safe space to have children in right now. The south feels a little too “Government or Nothing”, and none of them give a damn.
cafeitalia@reddit
If you have so many issues that is putting you in risk why are you even wanting to have kids? Especially when you are genetically hereditary issues that will also pass on to your kids. Isn’t that a bit selfish?
AwkwardRainbow@reddit
That’s eugenics you’re talking about my guy
ButterscotchTape55@reddit
"The women we love deserve better"
Republicans are disgusting. I'm tired of dancing around it. They're disgusting people who need to change their views
kon---@reddit
The pro-life voter is a thoughtless heartless coward whose only motivation is imposing their will on others.
And damn any doctor unwilling to stand up against legislation that deliberately puts people in life threatening situations. Help or, close your your damn doors and go practice in some other state.
KnowledgeSwimming259@reddit
Sadly this is what Texas wants
BigTunaTim@reddit
This is what 40% of Texas wants.
shinywtf@reddit
I bet it’s less than that
BigTunaTim@reddit
Early Voting begins next Monday
Find poll locations here
CasualObserverNine@reddit
Come on, Texas. Scrape your boot.
qolace@reddit
Vote red and you'll be left for dead. Full stop. Fight for your rights because if you won't fight for your neighbors (women, trans people, minorites, etc), you're next. I promise you.
Nymaz@reddit
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
180dream@reddit
Is there a YouTube link to this video?
Limp_Honey_4540@reddit
I've told my wife we will not be having children in this state due to the ban. I know it's a low risk, but I'm not willing to take the chance that something goes wrong.
frenchezz@reddit
Love that you shared this but this is definitely getting taken down for not being specific to DFW. It sucks because people here need to see this but it’ll happen regardless.
Dick_Lazer@reddit
According to the rules of this sub Granbury counts as close enough to "Dallas".
msondo@reddit
Granbury is about as close to DFW as Cleburne, so I feel it is still in our backyard.
frenchezz@reddit
Well shit I’m legitimately shocked this is still up. Hope lots of people see it!
Emotional-Mine3415@reddit
So sorry you and your wife had to endure this traumatic experience. And you better believe I will VOTE!
Kineth@reddit
This breaks my heart. I hate that this is where we're at. I'm pro-choice and at the very fucking minimum, the mother's life should be tantamount to the potential life in the womb. Fuck that noise about the sanctity of life if you're willing to let a woman die.
Cute-Gear-6774@reddit
Thank you for sharing. Abortion is healthcare. Abortion saves lives.
CakeZealousideal3861@reddit
Sorry dude. I lived in granbury for a lot of years so this hurts a bit.
erod100@reddit
I hope this doesn’t get removed more ppl should be aware of dangerous times current laws are creating.
Arthurs_librarycard9@reddit
I am so sorry this is the experience this couple had. Going through a miscarriage is terrible enough, but the care she received just made everything worse.
My circumstances are extremely different, but I had a PPH at home after the birth of my first child; I lost enough blood that I did black out twice before I could receive medical care. Losing blood like that is scary, and I had anxiety for a long time afterwards, which I am sure this woman will experience as well. I really hope we can vote in politicians that care about women's health in November.