Completely let down by BMW M2 Competition
Posted by corn_dog_22@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 270 comments
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Posted by corn_dog_22@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 270 comments
[removed]
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
Steering being twitchy is an alignment issue. Add front toe in if it bothers you.
Take out the secondary clutch spring. It’ll make the feel measurably better.
Bucking on upshifts is a skill problem. Get more used to the car and you’ll be fine.
TaintedSupplements@reddit
Its for getting to work five minutes faster
Artistic-Lie-4001@reddit
No
Artistic-Lie-4001@reddit
You are not crazy
samniking@reddit
Maybe people disagree but I think BMW makes the worst manual transmissions in the game. Completely numb, loose, and disconnected.
DanielG165@reddit
It’s reaaally hard to beat the tremec unit in your SS, if yours is a manual that is.
dajohnnyboy@reddit
Are the tr6060s known to be great? The one in the C6z06 is decent, but that has a linkage versus directly shifted. I really like the shifter in my Miata and the 5 speeds in the older Miata. The CTR also has a pretty great shifter.
samniking@reddit
I’d rather than die than touch a GM automatic 😂
DanielG165@reddit
The 10-speed auto is an incredible transmission, especially the 10R90 found the ZL1. You’re also using a variant of GM’s codeveloped transmission in your truck, so you are actively touching a GM automatic lol.
samniking@reddit
lol I’d rather die than touch a Camaro/Corvette automatic*
Especially with that AFM DOD shit on the 10 speed Camaros
GimmeChickenBlasters@reddit
Your Raptor has the same automatic in the Camaro
You've got that too. Your SS 1LE has all the AFM DOD hardware, just not enabled.
samniking@reddit
Yeah, I’m aware, the key part there is the fact that it’s disabled and I don’t have to do anything to it.
And yeah, I’m ok with an auto in a TRUCK but I don’t want a non-DCT auto in a CAR.
GimmeChickenBlasters@reddit
Except lifter failure still happens on manual cars. Go over to camaro6.com. A guy just had his engine replaced on a hotwheels edition SS with a manual
LMAO you bought the highest performance trim designed to go fast. Are you trying to convince us or yourself that it's somehow different?
samniking@reddit
That I’m ok with truck that I drive on the street having an auto but I prefer my track car have the M6 because there’s LESS lifter failures? Yes?
I think you need to calm down lol
DanielG165@reddit
Plus, I haven’t experienced, nor heard any owners have issues with the 10-speed in the Camaros, just that the stock paddle shifters aren’t that satisfying to press.
But the Raptor literally has the same 10R80 trans as the Camaro SS.
samniking@reddit
You’re misunderstanding. I’m not dogging on your transmission. I’m dogging on the AFM/DOD that comes with your transmission. Which can cause lifter failures on the LT1s. Not sure about the LT4.
DanielG165@reddit
I feel it, AFM is definitely a bugger.
sactownbwoy@reddit
I have a '22 ZLE with the 10-speed. First auto sports car I have ever owned. This 10-speed is amazing to me. I daily drive my ZLE too, love the car and the 10-speed.
JEs4@reddit
The 10R80 in your raptor is 10 speed auto that was jointly developed by Ford and GM. The GM counterpart is found in the Camaro.
Tough-Relationship-4@reddit
BMW builds luxury cars first, sports cars second. The transmissions are fine. They just soften everything up about them to make the car feel smooth and luxury, not raw and performance focused. Even the M division no longer builds sports cars. They build fast luxury cars. BMW changed direction with the F series and it’s gotten infinitely worse with the G models.
Vintage_Lobster@reddit
They've always sucked. I've driven just about every manual transmission BMW to exist as a bmw mechanic and they all are garbage. It's why I don't even care they're axing them and going full auto across their lineup, good riddance. They had damn near a hundred years to get it right and no iteration did. I hop into a Mazda or Honda and wonder what limp dick BMW engineer is use to a hot dog in a hall way that approves that shit and not wager WWIII on ZF or Getrag to get it together.
pappase36@reddit
I had a e36m years ago and remember with the UCC evo and dssr, and the m5 clutch/light flywheel, and cdv delete, i was surprised how much better the manual got. I mean sure it wasn't a miata by any stretch, but the difference was quite amazing.
Great garage btw. I also have a turbo NA and when it works it's a riot.
Frisks@reddit
My personal opinion is that it sucks that we have to mod it this far in the first place when something like any Honda shifter, or even the Lexus IS300 I have out the box is shorter and less rubbery than my stock F80 shifter. My F80 got a LOT better after installing the AutoSolutions short shift kit and a firmer transmission mount, and even more so when I install the dual rear diff mount.
breasticles36d@reddit
Replying to _GTS_Panda...Man talking about those mods take me back to BF.C days! Good times. That combo was really transformative on MY BMWs.
mini4x@reddit
I had this setup too (328i not the M) and the shifts were glorious, quick little snick.
NathanScott94@reddit
I can't help but agree, my first manual car was an e36 3 series with the 5 speed. And now I drive an s2000, the difference in shifter quality is night and day. Heck, even my Volvo has a better shifter than any BMW I've tried.
Educational_Fox6899@reddit
Traded my S2k for a f23 m240i. The shifter in the s2k was miles better but the beamer is so much more liveable wayyyyy faster. I do miss the s2k every now and then.
NathanScott94@reddit
I cross shopped some M3s when picking out my S2K, E36 (door cards *shudder) and E46 were both on the table at some point, I'll get another BMW some day, but it won't be at the cost of S2000. That thing is a keeper, I hear from too many people that say they regret ever selling theirs.
ducky2000@reddit
My old WRX 5MT would like a word. Stock shifter was about as long as something you would find in an 18 wheeler. The bushings were basically made of cotton. When you wiggled the shifter in gear it felt like it was in neutral. The ratios were complete ass. To allow a smooth rematched 1-2 shift you had to let the revs drop so far that the person behind you nearly rear ends you. This ratio was chosen so that the car could hit 60mph in second gear, thus helping it's performance numbers on paper by cutting out a second shift on a sprint to 60. The clutch throw was also very long yet had a very short bite point so it took a lot of pedal travel to shift, also making it difficult to shift quickly without powerbombing the clutch pedal. And let's not even the mention the fact that it will grenade with the slightest amount of shock load or an increase of torque from the factory tune.
skerpz@reddit
2nd topped out at 60? Those are rookie numbers
throw_me_away3478@reddit
100% agree. Someone I know got a M2 and excitedly wanted me to sit in it and "feel how good the shifter was"
Felt like a toy shifter with 0 feel
skerpz@reddit
A lot of people mistake “smoothness” and ease of use for quality. Personally I don’t want my shifter to feel “smooth” I want it to feel accurate, with the gates clearly defined, and a tactile “click” that I can feel when a gear is engaged.
TheSkyline35@reddit
A toy isn't the right word. A very numb unsatisfing stick, yes. The throw are too long, the mechanical feels is weird. I regret on a daily basis in the city not having the ZF8, but on good roads it's ok, but gears are very long
_ThugzZ_Bunny_@reddit
So odd cause the Mini manuals are so good. At least they used to be (still bmw ownership).
Captain_Alaska@reddit
I mean the Minis are transverse, they use entirely different transmissions from the BMWs people are used to.
burner94_@reddit
If America gets the current 1 series hatchback, then maybe.
butterball85@reddit
We get the 2 series gran coupe which is basically this
burntcookie90@reddit
nah, they're ok.
gt4rs@reddit
does that include the F series minis? I drove an F54 JCW with a manual and it wasn't great (though not awful) which I put down to the BMW ties. never driven a BMW manual but sat in some and they felt similar, maybe slightly worse
burner94_@reddit
those are FWD (or transverse engine AWD). Completely different gearboxes :)
tmchn@reddit
I had Countryman R60 (1st gen) and the shifter was amazing. Totally unsuited for the car, the clutch was heavy and the gearbox had hard and short throws
Amazing for country roads and spirited driving, terrible for city driving
TheCrazyAlice@reddit
Meanwhile every J30 and J35 Honda manual I've ever driven has been smooth as butter and tight....is it just me?
GripKing2000@reddit
Only Porsche and Miata manuals beat Honda manuals, nothing else comes close.
TheReaperSovereign@reddit
Haven't driven an ND3 but both my uncle and I preferred my type rs manual to his nd2
Porsche is still the best I think but it should be given it's 2x-3x thr price for the cars depending on model
veils1de@reddit
nearly every honda manual has made me want to get back in and drive it. nd shifter is nice but never gave me that same feeling
masterventris@reddit
I don't actually like the Porsche manuals. The lever is too stubby, the throw too short, and 7 speeds is too many and makes the gate too narrow.
I want to get some positive interaction that I have moved gears, and a throw distance equal to moving a spoon around a shot glass is not it!
racks1700@reddit
Have you driven a S2K?
tri_9@reddit
Yeah the g80 shifter feels like you’re shifting with a theraband flexbar.
Funny_Frame1140@reddit
I don't even know what that is 🤣
tri_9@reddit
It’s a thick rubber stick used for physical therapy. You bend it to exercise 🤣
julienjj@reddit
Odd considering the shift lever on all bmw is only 1 ball joint and a pin straight to the input shaft. Many cars people praise just have bowden cable linkage which has way more flex.
mini4x@reddit
It's not even the transmission, it's the shifter, yo;d be amazed how well they work with a proper short shift kit.
Astramael@reddit
Yes, stock shifters are real bad. However, the ones that are rod shifters can easily be modded to be fantastic feeling.
I know that’s doing work that BMW should have done, but on many cars it isn’t possible to improve the shifter to that level of feel, so it’s also not nothing!
sioux612@reddit
Oh come on its not that bad, it's almost on the same level as the a Golf TDI transmission
rudistroyer666@reddit
It's a good transmission.
I wouldn't be surprised if there were more BMW manuals on the road in North America than TDI manuals.
10000Didgeridoos@reddit
Yeah but a Golf TDI doesn't market itself as an an ultimate driving machine. No one expects a diesel Golf stick shift to be an amazing experience. They do for a BMW M car.
Docist@reddit
Both terrible in stock form but easily fixed with SSK or some solid bushings
PalmSizedTriceratops@reddit
Oh man. Glad someone else said it.
I test drove an M2 Comp manual after thinking it would be the perfect smaller two door and that transmission left me thinking the DCT option would have been much better.
Soggy_Head_4889@reddit
I don’t think it’s a bad car but I don’t think it suits your tastes. It sounds like you want something a bit more “raw” so to speak. I have a GT350 and have also driven an M2 comp and would take the GT350 every day of the week and twice on Sunday over the M2…however I could see how someone would prefer the M2.
MikeExMachina@reddit
I was certainly in this boat, took an M2 comp around the Nuremberg ring definitely found the overall feel to be too, idk, numb isn’t the right word, it’s a good car, but I felt it lacking in feedback. I have a 350R now.
Funny_Frame1140@reddit
How dod you get a 350R in Europe?
MikeExMachina@reddit
I didn’t, I just lived in Germany for a while, back in the states now.
sioux612@reddit
Just an FYI, if you go to Nuremberg expecting to go on the Nordachleife, you will be very disappointed
It's like 200 miles away, in Nürburg
Nuremberg (Nürnberg) is where the Nazi trials were
Burg is castle, Berg is Mountain
Nasa_OK@reddit
Bro just drove on the city road and wondered what all the hype was about 🤣🤣🤣
Please_Take_Me_Home@reddit
This is interesting to me because I nearly traded my manual M2 comp for a gt350 a few years ago. I wanted to love the ford but just couldn't. Got back in my bmw and it felt like the world was whole again.
Still think the GT350 is badass, just wasn't for me.
Personal_Border4167@reddit
I sold my gt350 because I could love it, I still can’t put my finger on why I didn’t love it. Do yo have any theories?
Please_Take_Me_Home@reddit
I thought it was too soft honestly. I'm assuming the GT fans here will disagree, but compared to my M2 at the time it felt like a Cadillac regardless of what mode or settings I tried. It was too "boat" like for me.
I come from s2000s, Caymans, Miatas and the M2, so I'm used to tight feeling cars. The gt350 had a gem of a motor but that's about it.
The car I nearly bought had 800 miles on it and the glove box would rattle unless I left it open lol..
Despite everything I just said, I'm sure it's a solid performer, but on the street it didn't feel like it to me.
What really pushed me away was how some people reported oil consumption and some didn't. It seamed like a crap shoot what engine I got and I didn't want to play that game.
Cool car for sure. I'll admire from a distance. Id take a 2004 terminator any day over a GT350 and take some of the extra cash on a vacation.
Soggy_Head_4889@reddit
The M2 is definitely a more refined, well-balanced, and “livable” car so to speak which is why I can definitely understand why someone would prefer it. The GT350 is so visceral to me and that’s the experience I’m looking for out of the type of car, but may not be what others want.
1trickana@reddit
Yeah the 350 is more rowdy and fun, the M2 is fast but sort of tame in a way
HeftyNugs@reddit
That would make sense if the M2 wasn't faster than the GT350
MikeExMachina@reddit
You might wanna check your sources there bro: GT350R: 7:32.19 F87 M2 Comp: 7:52.36 G87 M2 Comp: 7:38.71
Not only is it faster then the contemporary m2, it’s faster then the one that came out after it went out of production.
HeftyNugs@reddit
Okay so you're comparing the base M2 to the GT350R. There is no M2 comp.
The M2 does the quarter mile in 12.2s and traps at 118mph.
The GT350 does it in 12.3s @ 117mph.
The GT350R does it in 12.1s @ 119.6mph.
Most people are not tracking these cars, so while I will concede that the GT350R is faster around the Ring, most people's experience is going to be in a straight line on the road, and so they are very marginally different in terms of sheer speed.
I was really just nitpicking at the idea that the M2 is "tame" compared to the GT350.
Dud3_Abid3s@reddit
By your logic…why drive a M2? Get a Hellcat. 😂
HeftyNugs@reddit
Explain what you think my logic is here because I don't think I ever implied that you should get an M2 (or any car) because it's faster. I literally drive a Focus ST.
Dud3_Abid3s@reddit
It sounded like your argument was hey…the M2 is fast in a straight line so it’s probably the best choice between it and a GT350. I was saying by that metric, just get a Redeye.
If that’s not what you were saying then obviously go with the GT350/GT350R over the M2.
It’s the better sports car.
HeftyNugs@reddit
All I was pointing out is that "tame" is not a word I would use to describe a car like the M2, even compared to a GT350. This is especially true when you consider the platform of the S58. With very basic mods you're adding 200-300hp.
Entirely subjective
randeus@reddit
Bro, when they say “tame”, it’s not to say it’s slower or even faster. It’s how they accelerate. The M2 has a smooth power delivery and isn’t super theatrical. On the other hand, the GT350 accelerates with a loud, violent V8 screaming to an over 8,000 redline while the entire shakes and vibrates. Way less “tame” than the M2. Which one is faster on said acceleration was never the point.
HeftyNugs@reddit
That's obviously your interpretation of what was meant by it. OP explicitly mentioned "fast" so not really a stretch for me to point that out. I don't know why you guys are getting so worked up over pointing out factual information.
If it's how they accelerate and their engines then one is a twin turbo'd car with a faster, more aggressive acceleration and the S58 is not some shitty engine...
Bro...you are describing naturally aspirated motors. Smooth, linear power delivery is an objective characteristic of NA engines.
Lmao. You're aware Ford puts sound symposers in their GT350s right? The GT and the GT500 pump direct engine sounds but the ecoboost and the GT350 have a sound symposer.
It is objectively wrong to say that it's easier to get more power out of a NA car vs something with forced induction. The S58 is one of the best tuning platforms on the market. That's obviously not to say the Voodoo isn't a great platform either, but no, efficiency and access to power are not traits of a naturally aspirated motor. That's why it takes 5.2L of displacement vs 3L of displacement with the 6 cylinder.
I'm not at all shitting on the GT350 or Mustangs at all. They are phenomenal cars - it's just funny to call an M2 "tame" while glazing the Mustang when the only way it's more tame than a GT350 is maybe the noise - and part of that is subjective in terms of which cylinder layout sounds best.
randeus@reddit
Nah, you misunderstood me. I meant the turbo six is easier to get power out of and is more efficient.
HeftyNugs@reddit
Fair enough that's my misunderstanding.
I don't think I ever said that the M2 is less tame than the GT350.
In any case, I've probably read too far into OP's comment, just as you guys have read too far into my comment. I agree that the GT350 is a more rowdy car. I'll always take a manual over paddles.
kmj442@reddit
There is no g87 m2 comp available at the moment. Just a note.
MikeExMachina@reddit
Oh you’re right, I just assumed that article was comparing comp to comp, that’s actually a pretty impressive improvement for the G87 in that case.
kmj442@reddit
It’s a fat pig but does ok. I should be able to compare it to my old supra on track in 2ish weeks
1trickana@reddit
Sorry that's what I meant, M2 is faster but more stable and clinical, 350 is just a straight up riot
HeftyNugs@reddit
No problem man. I don't think it really matters here. At the end of the day it comes down to preference and what you want out of a car.
Zanna-K@reddit
It makes plenty of sense. Real life isn't Gran Turismo or Forza - you're not buying a car because it shaves a second or three off lap times at Laguna Seca. You buy a car because you like how it feels when you drive it even if you're not on a road course or a drag strip.
Although I guess if one's metric of fun is how many people you can leave behind at a stop light then maybe a BMW is actually the right car...
HeftyNugs@reddit
For sure, but most people will never take their car to the track or drag strip.
Acting as if everyone and their mother doesn't own a Mustang to do straight line pulls at a stop light is laughable as fuck.
AgentScreech@reddit
It shouldn't be.
aaayyyuuussshhh@reddit
Still less livable in terms of ride quality than any alpha platform MRC car
Neowarex2023@reddit
Not a GT350, but I ordered the 2018 M2 DCT new and drove the Mustang GT PP2 and went with the latter. More visceral won me over. Both are great cars.
macgirthy@reddit
Get your M2C tuned and the GT350 will be in your rear view. I weighed mine which is a manual with a GTS hood, 1/3 tank gas and it weighed 3525lbs. I'm still on the stock tires but got the DME unlocked and a custom tune by Enabled in TX. 490w/480tq.
Getting 265/285 setup for sure, just need to decide what tires.
Please_Take_Me_Home@reddit
I don't have the M2 anymore, replaced it with a cayman GTS. I do miss the forocity of the M2 at times, definitely a fun car.
Nero_Wolff@reddit
M2 or my supra dont even come close to the thrills and smile factor my gt350 provides. The only car ive driven that I liked more than my GT350 was a GT4RS
Supra and M2 are far more daily drivable though
_GTS_Panda@reddit
GT4 RS will pretty much ruin any car for you. I don’t think there is a more visceral car for the money. Thing is BONKERS.
Nero_Wolff@reddit
It really is insane. I didnt ruin my GT350 for me in the sense I just cant afford it. The GT4RS is definitely aspirational for me and I would like a GT sports car some day. For the money, the GT350 is a phenomenal occasion car, terrible daily
Another car I really would like to try is the Spyder RS. Top down with those intakes and that engine… hell yes
andychinart@reddit
I currently own a 991.2 GT3 in manual, and OWNED an f87 m2 comp prior. The m2 is fun enough that it isn't "ruined" for me by the GT3.
My M2 was a DCT though. And yeah if you suddenly let off the throttle it's gonna jerk, because you're suddenly shifting the weight from the rear back to the front.
I switched to a 265/295 tire setup with PS4S. I don't know what tire setup your friend is running but that probably makes a huge difference.
Drauren@reddit
If you suddenly let off between 1 and 2 it jerks too.
austinzone813@reddit
Having driven both an M2 DCT and a 6spd the DCT is hands down the better car (and im a manual enthusiast). The absolute biggest gripe with the manual is the shifter position. They have to shoehorn in 2 big ass cupholders in front of it. The shifter feels like its back about 2 inches further than it should and it really creates an awkward throw. The DCT completely solves this problem and better compliments the rest of the car. The manual literally feels tacked on.
DisgustingCoughDrop@reddit
I made the same change on my M2C and it certainly helped vs. the smaller stock PSSs. Still, I was never entirely satisfied with it and changed to a G80 when they first came out, despite the nose. Very happy with it after 3.5 years.
andychinart@reddit
I have tried giving the G-series cars many chances but I can't bring myself to like them (looks aside). They are obviously the faster, more capable car but it just doesn't make me smile like the M2C did. It's all personal opinion I guess.
TookEverything@reddit
I want so bad to buy the new M2 for the performance, but they somehow made it the ugliest of the bunch.
No-Bodybuilder-9686@reddit
In the era of BMW G-chassis design I think the G87 M2 is the best looking of them.
While it’s probably quite good and all, I really don’t love the newest iDrive with the mega screen, aesthetically at least
DrTommyNotMD@reddit
I swapped to a G82, partly because of the nose. Sexy cars.
drunkbusdriver@reddit
Half these issues sound like a combination of incorrect tire/wheel combo and OP not knowing how to drive a FR manual car.
ButthealedInTheFeels@reddit
Yeah the problem is comparing most anything modern with a 911 of almost any generation…
Tough-Relationship-4@reddit
The M2 can be perfect with a few mods. All of the things you complain about are decisions BMW made to appeal to a larger group of buyers. Most people who buy an M2 use it to commute to work, sit in traffic, go get groceries. The soft, numb rubber bushings in the control arms need to be swapped out for spherical race bushes. The subframe needs solid metal bushes everywhere. The clutch needs a stop added and a CDV delete. The gearbox needs solid poly mounts, a fluid change to good DCT fluid and a stiffer shifter bushing.
All of those things were made entirely too soft for a track car so that it would feel luxurious on the street. It all needs to be ripped out and replaced and the M2 becomes and absolute weapon. At the expense of feeling every ripple of pavement and judder from the engine in your backside.
0_1_1_2_3_5@reddit
BMWs are grocery getters first and performance cars second and it shows. Fanboys will get mad but go to the BMW subs and they all wish they could afford a 911 lol.
I love my E39 M5, it’s a great daily driver, but as far as driving experience goes my NSX craps all over it and pretty much every other bimmer I’ve driven.
strongmanass@reddit
I agree. BMW doesn't have a purpose-built sports car platform. Everything is designed to be versatile in a way where you have performance, but not at the expense of livability. That's even truer now in the CLAR-era where modularity is king. That makes the cars excellent daily drivers IMO, but people shouldn't go into a BMW expecting rawness because 1) they're road cars first, 2) the automotive landscape has changed generally with things like EPAS, and 3) over time rawness is not what most BMW buyers have come to want and BMW have responded to that.
Phrexeus@reddit
The Z4 is their sports car. It just doesn't have the hype of their M cars.
xlb250@reddit
It shares platform with 7 series
xIcarus227@reddit
Wtf are you even talking about?
xlb250@reddit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_CLAR_platform
xIcarus227@reddit
I don't get what you're trying to say here. Yes, this is a modular platform which spans the entirety of BMW's and Mini's range of cars, including the 7-series. This doesn't mean the Z4 is based on the 7-series, which is what's being understood from your statement, it only means the basic design philosophy and materials used are similar.
Phrexeus@reddit
How? The 7 series is a much larger car with back seats, the Z4 is a 2 seater convertible. Not saying you're wrong, I'm just trying to get my head around that.
xlb250@reddit
BMW calls it Cluster Architecture (CLAR)
goaelephant@reddit
E39 M5 has superior Getrag 420 gearbox, compared to modern ZF S6-53 found in E60/E92 and carried over to the current manual BMWs (and F10 M5, etc.). But I agree, BMW gearbox has always been... slightly rubbery, to accommodate luxury daily driving BUT can be driven sporty. But you can't (shouldn't) slam gears like a BorgWarner T5, Tremec T56/TR6060, Honda 6-speed (which eats synchros anyways). BMW is to be driven like a high-power European taxi. Fast but smooth.
TheSkyline35@reddit
Yes, well you cannot quick shift with a modern BMW anyway, very few turbo modern car can ofc. But it's true that the 1-2 shift is very not satisfying, even from a mechanic point of view. The rest is fine, but coming from a Honda erg, it's a step down. More forgiving through
Squalose@reddit
I can't stress how much I actually appreciate this post and subsequent discussions. I absolutely love Mustangs (own one currently) but have recently become highly interested in the M2.
After reading through these comments it sounds like if you want a raw feeling manual, definitely go with the GT350. The M2 however is a bit more agile feeling and more "refined".
Is the above accurate? I'm so lost on what I actually want now.
skerpz@reddit
Just test drive one. M2’s aren’t some rare exotic that you have to put a deposit on to drive. Shifter and clutch feel are something that you can get a very good idea of with a 15 minute drive.
DNL213@reddit
I will add that I would not let the shifter itself deter you. Easily fixable with a short shift kit.
The complaints about the numb steering and clutch are valid although I hear the clutch can be improved as well. I have not done so on my bmw.
I will say though I personally would be very tempted by a 350 if I was not tracking the car
ItsmeMarioITA@reddit
I just think you are used to the RR configuration of your porsche and so it seems that a FR car like the M2 is worse.
The reality is: you probably are not used to that configuration or it doesn’t suit your driving style. This doesn’t mean you could not get smoked on a track by someone who knows how to properly handle it.
avinash240@reddit
Funny, I find almost all Porsche sports cars I've driven very capable, boring and sterile. Different strokes for different folks.
Spicywolff@reddit
Tram line so due to how big the tire contact patch is and or alignment settings. Nervousness sounds like caster may be a bit off.
BMW has always had shit feeling transmissions. even my 85 318 with a fully rebuilt shifter didn’t ever feel that great.
Many cars like these 1 is a launch gear so the ratio jump is pretty sizable. On AMG c63/E63 with the MCT7. They rarely go down to 1st, they use the torque and chill in second. I bet BLW does the same to get that super aggressive launch feeling in.
100PercentJake@reddit
Yeah, I was gonna say... I have a 20k mile M2C and don't have any of these complaints. I leave the steering on its lightest setting because I despise heavy steering and I find it to be direct, fairly responsive, and have reasonably good feedback for a modern car. No slop in the shifter either, though it's not very mechanical feeling. "smooth" is how you'd describe it if you liked it, "rubbery" is how you'd describe it if you didn't. I can't comment much on the gear ratios because my car is on all-seasons which make 1st gear utterly worthless under power. It's definitely not a car for launching from a dead stop and trying to bang off shifts in a straight line.
fcman256@reddit
I also hated it. I found a perfect spec car to trade in my C7 corvette for since I have kids and my wife can’t drive stick, Blue, super low mileage, 2021, DCT. I barely made it around the block and turned around. It feels like the dynamics team was run by cavemen. So hilariously overdamped and under tired.
DNL213@reddit
If you like the g87 then the m2 isn't that far off. Can fix up a lot of the issues easily by simply buying a comp instead and some tires.
That said I think the g87 is the better buy by far (don't tell /r/bmw I said that)
fcman256@reddit
I wasn’t willing to try tweaking the car to my liking. The G87 drives the way I want without needing any tweaks. Just wish it had the DCT.
Red_sparow@reddit
To be fair, all of your points are how I feel about every car I've driven that was made in the last 10 years.
TheseClick@reddit
Steering feel for the M2 can be fixed with aftermarket caster bushings and top mount. Aside from steering feel, these will increase camber gain during cornering, and the front wheel will flop around much less under braking. Also, more negative camber can eliminate understeer for the M2. Sucks that you have to spend time, money, and effort to “fix it”, but solutions do exist for the M2!
aaayyyuuussshhh@reddit
Even then, something like a Alpha platform car will still offer more driver engagement, front end feedback, steering feel, and most importantly confidence during high speed driving. Also will still post better numbers if that's what you want. Fundamentally the F87 chassis is not the best out their and its suspension design is plain poor. If you really want a dialed in car, the smart move would be to get a Cayman or Camaro tbh.
TheseClick@reddit
Camaro and Cadillac Blackwing chassis tuning is awesome. Probably best in the business in that price range. Engine and its ancillary parts reliability is a different question.
Caymans are cool too.
aaayyyuuussshhh@reddit
I honestly see way more alpha platform cars being tracked than any M car from the last decade. I'd imagine reliability is pretty damn solid if so many people are choosing to track these cars. I do know though the older LT4 had overheating issues though. Also GM's 8 speed had some shuddering issues which was recalled and fixed. I don't know much about that 3.6T engine though. Seemed to have lasted in the ATS-V but IDK how great it holds up long term.
gbeezy007@reddit
I just got a g87 and I feel like the issue is you have a dedicated car and a daily and the M2 trys to do both. And it honestly does very well at both at least the g87 does. Normal comfort mode is nice to drive and then sport kicks it into a fun car while also having decent power and being AWD.
The steering wheel thickness is dumb AF and the manual is the worst manual I've driven also. The remainder of the car for a fun daily is awesome imo. Though a dedicated sports car is going to feel more raw and a daily is going to be more comfy.
On paper it's actually pretty good value for the money as well but the not so rawness almost makes it feel a tad slower then it really is.
DNL213@reddit
I'm shilling at this point but an autosolutions shifter will solve all your woes
gbeezy007@reddit
I'm new to the BMW mod world so I'll take it not sure where to look yet. WRX prior mod options were much more endless it seems
DNL213@reddit
I was into subies at one point but decided to get a bmw last minute so I'm decently read on Subarus.
I'd say the options are a bit more limited on bmw but they are generally very good. Now if you want cheap options that is a bit of a different story.
So far there hasn't been anything that I looked into doing and haven't found a good solution for. Outside of maybe body components like cf fenders and hoods maybe? In some senses a lot of bmw builds end up looking very similar as a result. Other than that suspension and other performance parts are readily available.
impulsivetech@reddit
It honestly sounds like your expectations were a little too high. It is not a dedicated sports car. While the gt350 is very good, thank goodness the m2c is also not a mustang. Gt350 prices are staying above m2c prices to reflect this.
On the otherhand, the m3 in nearly every given year is the best sports sedan you can buy. The m2 was the smaller, cheapened version of that.
I added a short shift kit to mine, but the 1-2 shift is still weird. I think it’s a strange pair of ratios or something. I’ve driven better (honda) and I’ve driven worse (VW and Volvo).
It’s a good car, but like every car… there are compromises.
aaayyyuuussshhh@reddit
As someone who's either owned/driven most sports car/sedans under 100K, I'd disagree on the M3 comment unless you are just looking for something that is fast in a straight line and posts good numbers. I'd have to assume you haven't driven anything except your M2.
Alfa Romeo Giulia and CT4/5 Blackwings are easily better sports sedans and drive better than any M car in the last 2 generations. Heck even a G70 3.3T is more engaging to some extent. BMW is only able to compete in handling by making the suspension unbearably stiff. Cadillac and Alfa Romeo are able to post similar or better lateral grip numbers while having a compliant ride. GM's Alpha platform cars literally handle as good as my last gen 911 GTS on track but will cruise like an E class on the highway with their magnetorheological dampers. Recent M cars remind me of Model 3/Ys before Teslas fixed their overly stiff/unrefined suspension but WORSE. Anyone who's ridden/driven in those Teslas know exactly what I'm talking about. The head toss, sounds, and vibrations that come through the suspension into the cabin is atrocious. Exact same problem with the M2/M4/M5/X3M/X4M. All are just poor suspension designs versus competitors.
Aside from the poor suspension, the steering is dull, lifeless, artificial feeling, and too light. Almost zero front end feedback too. And when it comes to sound, all these turbo M cars sound atrocious with most of the sound being faked in or muffled by the turbos. I'm sure my Dyson Vacuum cleaner is more entertaining to hear. The only saving grace is the I6 engines. But if I'm being honest they can't touch the small blocks from GM or the characterful ferrari derived V6 in the AF when it comes to responsiveness. Still too much turbo lag in every M car. As for the trans, the ZF8 is good but I find the tuning better in the Alfa Romeo and the manual in the M3 just sucks relative to the best under 100K. Even a base Miata is far superior in terms of engagement and precision.
Most people buying these new M cars are mainly buying to show off or for the straight line speed. I rarely see anyone tracking these cars. All the hardcore driving enthusiasts seem to be getting other cars. I still see more older BMWs and new ones at tracks which confirms the buyer base who is buying these cars. I see tons of alpha platform cars though. Last best sports sedan where the 3 series was the winner was with the e90 generation.
Now aside from my experience and opinion, we can talk numbers and other reliable reviewer's takes too. Caranddriver, Motortrend, The Tropher, and so many other's complained about the revised 2021 M5 Comp which was suppose to make the suspension "better" but it still received complaints from almost every reviewer I have seen. And the M5 is suppose to be the most "comfortable" (zero comfort whatsoever) so imagine the M2/3/4 which are unbearable for a road trip or sometimes even to go grocery stopping. Their is also a good reason why Caranddriver's 10 best list includes 2 Blackwings and a corvette with not a single BMW on their 10 best list. When it comes down to numbers, BMWs fastest car on the Nürburgring currently is a limited edition 150K M4 CSL with a dual clutch automatic, stripped out the interior and rear seats, and carbon ceramics brakes. GMs normal spec 75K ZL1 1LE with a 6 speed manual, full interior, and steal brakes is just 1 second slower. Obviously the normal M3/M4 comp variants are much much slower. So even if we talk numbers, BMW is not winning. Actually from from it. Not sure why you think the M3 is the best in nearly ever given model year. Hasn't been the case for a good decade or so. I'd highly recommend people to drive competitors instead of just hopping on the bandwagon. Kinda like how millions bought Tesla even though (older) Teslas weren't greatly built. M3 sells well but IMO it's not a good sports car. It's fancy and fast but minimal driver engagement. I could be in a Tesla and I would be hard pressed to miss much given M3s are automatic, awd, and do most things for you.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a37179788/2021-alfa-romeo-giulia-quadrifoglio-vs-2021-bmw-m3-competition-compared/ - talk about stiff BMW ride and how they'd still take home the alfa because it is in fact the better sports even though the M3 had better numbers in most cases.
https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/comparison-2015-bmw-m4-vs-2016-chevrolet-camaro-ss/ a base non 1LE Camaro SS pretty much bests the last gen M3/M4/M2 in every performance metric while offering real driver engagement, much better manual trans, etc. No contest here according to motortrend.
301vmg@reddit
its a bmw… what did you expect?
rudbri93@reddit
I think it comes down to taste. The ones who like it love it, especially because of how big and heavy the m3/m4 have become. So i think its seen as being the only alternative for a bmw fan for a reasonably practical daily coupe. Now i havent had the chance to drive one thats just the impression ive gotten from reviews and owners.
Trollygag@reddit
The M2 is also a pig and close to the weight of an M3.
qwertyisafish@reddit
This post is about the competition (F87), which is not the current, heavier M2 iteration. Although no featherweight, \~1500kg isn't exactly 'pig' territory.
Bonerchill@reddit
It’s more like ~1600kg, though, innit?
qwertyisafish@reddit
Depends on spec and region (sun roof, big brakes optional etc) but 1550kg is where most that I've seen weighed sit. I'll see if I can find my old slip, but it was in the 1540's
Bonerchill@reddit
C&D’s test of a 2019 M2C manual yielded a 3,561lb weight, hence my post.
I’ve not seen weight slips from owners because it’s not my cuppa.
DandyHands@reddit
Funny enough the M2 competition F87 weighs the same as my M4 CSL. I get it, my car is the lighter version of the M4 but it’s still crazy to think that a M2 weighs the same
impulsivetech@reddit
The m2c is a $60k msrp car, the CSL is $140k msrp car. The m4 csl has lightweight buckets, carbon brakes, titanium exhaust, lithium battery, CARBON FIBER BODY PANELS, no arm rest storage, less sound deadening, etc etc etc.
DandyHands@reddit
Yes no cup holders and no arm rests make it very uncomfortable. When comparing just the G chassis, I didn’t quite understand the benefit of the M2 over the M4. I would definitely choose the F87 over the G87.
Accomplished-Exit136@reddit
Did your champagne go flat too?
joeygladstone6919@reddit
I laughed. I'm sure this is coming from someone who loves to hear themselves talk
oOoWTFMATE@reddit
M2 doesn’t weigh that much less than m3/4
PurpleSausage77@reddit
I hate that. It weighs the same as the GT350 which I would much rather have. Totally turned off from BMW.
qwertyisafish@reddit
Its \~200kg less. It's almost like people can't read the words competition or F87 in this post. There is no new M2 competition, just an M2.
aaayyyuuussshhh@reddit
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a22574455/2019-bmw-m2-competition-first-drive-review/
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a23083757/2017-ford-mustang-shelby-gt350-reliability-update-3/
Last gen F87 M2 comp still weighed \~3600lbs according to caranddrivers measurements in the links above. Camaro SS 1LE and GT350 weigh 3750-3800lbs in the link above by caranddriver. Minor difference. Either way the american cars posted better straight line numbers, lateral grip numbers, braking numbers, laptime numbers at VIR, and had more steering feel/front end feedback/better chassis/suspension/etc. Actually a base SS would annihilate a M2 Comp around a track. An SS 1LE and GT350 best a F87 M2 CS at VIR in caranddrivers test.
I know you love your M2 Comp but it does not weigh 200kgs less lol. It's kind of a boat given how much smaller it is than a Camaro/Mustang which are 190in long.
DandyHands@reddit
F87 M2 comp weighs same as my M4
andychinart@reddit
This is false.
DandyHands@reddit
Sources? I just looked it up and the M2 Comp DCT F87 weighs 3628 lb source versus my BMW M4 CSL 3580 lb source
Basically the same weight, actually the M2 Comp DCT F87 is slightly heavier… I agree with OP the M2 is overrated
andychinart@reddit
I stand corrected, I only read your comment, which didn't specify trim, and not your flair. The standard M4/comp is still heavier, though. The CSL is overpriced for what is essentially an M4 with some extras. It's a cool car but at the price point, it's porsche money, borderline porsche GT territory.
DandyHands@reddit
I wish the M4 CSL was Porsche (911) money… you can’t get more than a Carrera S for the price of the M4 CSL. Used 911 GTS are $170-180k and no way you can get one at MSRP without a relationship with the dealership 😡
One day I’ll graduate to a Porsche
intercede007@reddit
The M2 CS weighs 100lbs less than your CSL.
DandyHands@reddit
Yeh which is actually pretty sad that the lightweight version of the M2 weighs only 100 lbs lighter than the lightweight version of the M4. I don’t really see why someone would choose the M2 over an M4 other than the cost
intercede007@reddit
F87 M2 CS Curb Weight - 3,545
F82 M4 CS Curb Weight - 3,728
F82 M4 GTS Curb Weight - 3,329
G82 M4 CSL Curb Weight - 3,640
The lightest F80 chassis M car was 311lbs lighter than the current lightest G80 chassis car. The F80 chassis M cars are within dozens of pounds of each other, trim for trim.
F87 M2 Competition 3,640
G82 M4 Competition 3,880
The F chassis weighs less than the G chassis. Trim for trim, the F chassis cars are lighter than the G chassis cars.
DandyHands@reddit
Yeh it proves my point. The M2 is deceptively heavy given how small it looks. That’s why it seems overrated when you drive it. I get that the M4 GTS is very stripped but it’s still crazy that the M2 CS of the same chassis generation weighs 200 lb more than it!
andychinart@reddit
They didn't make an M2 GTS unfortunately, but if they did, I'd be willing to bet it'd be lighter than the M4 GTS.
The M2CS is already lighter by almost 200 lb than the equivalent M4CS.
andychinart@reddit
Yeah but they don't have the same weight distribution. The GT350 is more nose-heavy probably because of the v8 in the front, whereas the M2 is a lot closer to 50/50.
impulsivetech@reddit
The equal f80/82 cars also have a $1200 lithium battery for starters. They also have smaller brakes than the f87 competition unless you get the carbon ceramics. It’s not a ton, but it adds up.
RunninOnMT@reddit
Cf roof too.
Cars-and-Coffee@reddit
I had a 2017 M235i a while back and was shocked at how much it weighed. Those 2 series weigh far more than they look.
qwertyisafish@reddit
250+kg is a fair amount (F87 / G80)
oOoWTFMATE@reddit
In comparison to f8x, the weight delta isn’t that big. F82 m4 is a great alternative to F87 for a “reasonably practical daily coupe”
aaayyyuuussshhh@reddit
Nope I'd argue you are very right. Now tires make a massive difference in terms of inputs and feel. Their is a chance the tires were just bad. Either way it would still never live up to the drivers car standard of any Alpha platform car, Alfa Romeo Giulia, Cayman/911, etc. Those are all still a league above. The M2 comp was just better than other BMWs but it was still behind older BMWs and some other competitors. I'd argue its good enough and a compromise. Far from the worst in class but also not the best.
For reference my Camaro SS 1LE would run circles around a M2 Comp on a track, while riding like an E class on the highway. Actually a BASE Camaro SS would run circles around a 2020 M2 Comp DCT. BMW just does not have the engineering talent, desire, and care to match GM, Cadilliac, etc.
YouAreMentalM8@reddit
If you ever own a Porsche sports car you'll never be able to go back to a BMW M product that attempts to compete in the same segment. The difference is a purpose built (from the ground up) sports car vs attempting to inject sportiness into a luxury car platform. I haven't driven the M2CS yet but I can't fathom how it has won so many comparisons when the M2/M2C are so completely disappointing. I think if they fixed the steering, suspension tuning, clutch, and shifter it might start to be competitive with a 718 or 911, but I can't imagine how it would best a GT4/GT3, etc. The engine alone is just so unexciting compared to the N/A 4.0s Porsche has been producing.
lazarus870@reddit
The M2, like most modern manual cars, likely has some pretty bad rev hang. Also, I am puzzled by the gear ratios they use in the 6MT with so much torque, especially the first two gears.
doomsdaymelody@reddit
Your thing about the car bucking, may be an issue that disappears with familiarity with the car and how it drives. Clutch feel is a very personal thing, I drove my buddies 10th gen Civic Si and while the shifter was miles better than I was expecting I felt like the clutch feel basically ruined the interaction for me. It would have been something I would get used to eventually but it was not intuitive for me because the bite point felt so high. It made smooth shifting, particularly when driving fast, difficult.
BMWs steering has never really recovered from when they dropped hydraulic racks. Maybe I'm a little spoiled but that is one of the reasons my wife and I decided to hang on to our E90 rather than trade it up to something more modern... well that and the fact that we've done all of the "major" maintenance items that it should require for the next 6-7 years. I haven't driven any modern Porsche products, but I don't know that anyone has found a way to make electric steering even competitive in steering feel with the better hydraulic racks from the last 2 decades or so, but that's sort of spilled milk if you are even interested in any driving aides since electric racks are more energy efficient and are much easier to implement control systems for.
I think a lot of these complaints will carry over to most new cars, even the hottest performance versions, and with that understanding I'd say that no, the M2 is not overrated. You just went in with expectations it didn't meet.
Jokic_Is_My_Hero@reddit
Modern BMW’s are simply numb. I test drove one and was let down in all the same ways you were. I decided to go with a GT350, which is a 10 times more fun in every way
deka101@reddit
Damn, I was considering one of these. Manual trans feel is super important to me so it's a shame it's not great... It was my top contender
_BEER_@reddit
Try a dct model and you'll change your mind really quick. Basing a choice on a random opinion online isn't the right way at all.
ragingduck@reddit
The DCT, on the other hand, is quite nice. Give it a try.
deka101@reddit
I'm not quite ready to give up the manual yet. Whatever I get next is going to be my first big sports car purchase, and it's gotta be a stick
goaelephant@reddit
The manual is not as bad as people make it out to be. It just can't be slammed like a Tremec or oldschool Getrag (found in BMW E34 M5/E39 M5/etc).
Modern BMW manual gearbox (ZF sourced), I would describe it as a luxuriously smooth shifting primarily and secondarily you can drive it like a sports car. Best of both worlds, worst of both worlds...
throw_me_away3478@reddit
As a cruiser the new BMW manuals are great. But I think every enthusiast would prefer a notchy tactile shifter
goaelephant@reddit
Ive heard a short shifter kit + bushings can help, but i believe the transmission is inherently a bit meh compared to G420
tussilladra@reddit
As a lover of manual transmissions, I was very disappointed with the M2. Not only was the feel of the transmissions lackluster but I feel it didn’t suit the character of the car. Manually shifting the gears was not enjoyable AND made the car slower. It seemed like the shifter was there solely for nostalgic value and no other reason. Like having a 56K modem on the latest iPhone.
rishredditaccount@reddit
Consider a Camaro SS 1LE instead. If you can get used to the bad visibility it's an incredibly capable, well balanced car that also still can be a decent, reliable daily driver.
deka101@reddit
I've definitely considered them, but they're expensive and rare in Europe. Plus the looks don't really do it at all for me
rjfer10@reddit
If you’re okay with FWD and aren’t vehemently against it for some reason, you’d probably love the new Civic Type R if you can get it at msrp in your locale.
Cross shopped it with an SS 1LE as well and man does it have a fantastic shifter.
rishredditaccount@reddit
That's fair, they're easier to come by in the states. What about a MK5 Supra?
jaron7@reddit
If I could give anyone here one piece of advice it would be to drive the cars you're interested in and form your own opinions. Not even saying OP is necessarily wrong about anything, but don't let one person's opinion (or the echo chamber that is reddit) sour you on a car before you even drive it yourself.
DNL213@reddit
Don't let a shifter deter you if you like everything else about the car. Auto solutions shifter will impress even the Honda boys
joe2105@reddit
I have a N55 M2 DCT and that transmission is absolutely fantastic. BMW has never been known for amazing manuals.
goaelephant@reddit
I think the manual quality went down with E60/E92 and its successors. That is when they switched to ZF. Before, it was Getrag and it was much better.
withsexyresults@reddit
Don’t remember the getrag being that great in my e46 m3. Remember long rubbery vague shifts with that thing
goaelephant@reddit
Comparative to ZF, its much more sturdy. But yes, BMW has always been on the rubbery side.
DNL213@reddit
Depends on mileage but after driving stock e36, e46, and e90 shifters. They all suck to about the same degree. Worn out shifter bushings on an older car make it even worse
mr_lab_rat@reddit
BMW manuals are not great but can be improved without spending much.
Ultimate Clutch Pedal, removal of clutch delay valve, and replacing the shifter mount bushing (at least the rear one) makes them feel much better.
The other complaints OP mentioned could be just bad alignment. Sure, Porsche is better but that doesn’t make the M2 bad.
komrobert@reddit
I don’t think it’s that bad tbh, depends what you’re comparing to. The auto rev match is neat. There are also plenty of aftermarket mods like short shifter kit etc.
uncoild@reddit
I daily drive the original M2 and I have the same complaint about the steering...it's fucking terrible
myredditlogintoo@reddit
I have a track prepped 2016 M3 with many handling modifications, and have gotten numerous compliments about how the car handles from people driving all kinds of cars - including other M3 owners. I've also driven a share of other cars, and there aren't many that I would consider switching to. GT500? Nope. Lexus RC F Fuji? Nope. Porsche GT4? Maybe. GT3? Yessss, please. The new M2 is a few hundred pounds heavier. I'm sure you can get it to handle great, but I think I'm at the weight limit of what I want to drive with my current car.
BWTECH0521@reddit
My buddy test drove a M2, mustang GT and a Veloster N (just for fun). He ended up buying the VN. Says a lot about cars these days lol. I'm sure everyone is looking for different things in a car so there's that.
probsdriving@reddit
I sold my M2 because I hated the manual so much. It’s a very beautiful car (the OG, at least) but I wouldn’t own one again.
Necessary_Monk4949@reddit
it's a known fact they put limiters on these so it doesn't out perform m3 and m5
intercede007@reddit
Just boost control. You can flash the M2C with the M2CS tune and bring the car up to the M4 Competition level. There are no other differences between the engines.
The biggest limits on the M2 are in the interior options. You can't get the heads up display of the M3/M4, for example, and a few other features.
Live-Habit-6115@reddit
When i clicked on this thread I knew at least one of the complaints would be about the gearbox. had a manual 2020 M2 competition and absolutely hated the clutch. So janky.
BMW doesn't seem to know how to do those anymore.
mini4x@reddit
Dunno about #1, but #2 and #3 have been the BMW way for decades, not sure about current cas, but the first thing most of us used to do is remove the CDV (clutch delay valve), and there are several ways to improve the shifter if they are anything like the older ones.
burntcookie90@reddit
I owned one for 2 years. One of the worst "sports" cars ive ever owned (NB2, ND2, 981 GT4, F87 Mini). Its numb, shifter feels like a video game, eats consumables for lunch on track, and is generally just an awful time.
Time_Astronaut@reddit
Skill issue
goaelephant@reddit
To me, this problem exists on modern turbocharged performance BMWs (F10 M5, F80 M3, etc.). Even after letting off the gas, it feels like there is some residual boost/power that needs a second to simmer down. If you time the shifting right (the same way you time shifts on a Honda with rev hang), you can make the problem not noticeable.
DNL213@reddit
I've only driven M cars older than 2010 and they all have this "issue". I put issue in quotes because this is mainly just how a gearbox works. There are a couple contributors but I think it's primarily due to the long gearing and speed diff between 1 and 2
floppyfolds@reddit
Agreed. It happens with my S54 as well, if I'm not careful.
DNL213@reddit
Yeah this is a product of a couple things but I think the primary one is the long gearing and the large speed difference between 1 and 2 in BMW's
Hondroids@reddit
Went from an m2 comp to a zl1. I made the mistake of believing the hype. The zl1 is better in every way as a performance car.
ditto64@reddit
I did a clutch delay valve delete on my F80, and also swapped out the bushings in the shifter linkage for poly ones. Night and day difference.
ButthealedInTheFeels@reddit
I think the issue is coming from a 911. Even a 996 is a great handling and very competent car especially in all your areas of complaint.
You are used to one of the best hydraulic steering setups and manual shifter feel of all time…
People love the M2 compared to most modern cars especially other modern BMWs where it is clearly better and quite sporty and engaging.
This would be kind of like saying you don’t understand the hype of a new Elantra N when you are used to driving a VW R32 with the classic VR6.
They are different generations of car one is much more analog and tradition and the other is a sporty version of a new car with modern tech and safety.
shabba81@reddit
I can totally relate to what you're saying, as the M2 (F87) was something of a dream car for me too, and I always wanted to try one. It's not easy, though - dealers are reluctant to hand them over, and understandably so are private owners. Since I was in the market for a new car two months ago, I made appointments to test drive one, especially since a good friend of mine bought one this spring and absolutely loves it.
I have to say, the car is gorgeous, comfortable, and the sound is incredible. But, like you, I found the shifting, the steering, and the overall road feel to be pretty bad. This wasn’t a Competition version, but it did have the DCT. Sometimes it would downshift on its own, even in the middle of a corner, which I can imagine being unsettling at higher speeds, especially without a locking rear diff. Upshifts and throttle lifts also made the car shake a bit, as you mentioned.
Honestly, I was massively disappointed too. I always thought, based on all the hype and glowing reviews, that this was one of the best cars in the world. I can see it becoming exactly that but only if you invest an amount equal to the purchase price into tuning and upgrades, but otherwise, it was a huge letdown. Maybe an M4 from the same generation is better, I dont know.
shabba81@reddit
I can totally relate to what you're saying, as the M2 was something of a dream car for me too, and I always wanted to try one. It's not easy, though - dealers are reluctant to hand them over, and understandably so are private owners. Since I was in the market for a new car two months ago, I made appointments to test drive one, especially since a good friend of mine bought one this spring and absolutely loves it.
I have to say, the car is gorgeous, comfortable, and the sound is incredible. But, like you, I found the shifting, the steering, and the overall road feel to be pretty bad. This wasn’t a Competition version, but it did have the DCT. Sometimes it would downshift on its own, even in the middle of a corner, which I can imagine being unsettling at higher speeds, especially without a locking rear diff. Upshifts and throttle lifts also made the car shake a bit, as you mentioned.
Honestly, I was massively disappointed too. I always thought, based on all the hype and glowing reviews, that this was one of the best cars in the world. I can see it becoming exactly that but only if you invest an amount equal to the purchase price into tuning and upgrades, but otherwise, it was a huge letdown. Maybe an M4 from the same generation is better, I dont know.
shabba81@reddit
I can totally relate to what you're saying, as the M2 was something of a dream car for me too, and I always wanted to try one. It's not easy, though - dealers are reluctant to hand them over, and understandably so are private owners. Since I was in the market for a new car two months ago, I made appointments to test drive one, especially since a good friend of mine bought one this spring and absolutely loves it.
I have to say, the car is gorgeous, comfortable, and the sound is incredible. But, like you, I found the shifting, the steering, and the overall road feel to be pretty bad. This wasn’t a Competition version, but it did have the DCT. Sometimes it would downshift on its own, even in the middle of a corner, which I can imagine being unsettling at higher speeds, especially without a locking rear diff. Upshifts and throttle lifts also made the car shake a bit, as you mentioned.
Honestly, I was massively disappointed too. I always thought, based on all the hype and glowing reviews, that this was one of the best cars in the world. I can see it becoming exactly that but only if you invest an amount equal to the purchase price into tuning and upgrades, but otherwise, it was a huge letdown. Bought a Focus RS instead, never thought of the M2 since.
Business_Glove3192@reddit
At one point I was hell bent on trading my BRZ up for an M2. I test drove both og and cs. Was turned off by the shifter right away. Next the weight. Feels like a buff miata.
I know M2 is miles better than a BRZ, but behind the wheel, it didn’t give me the feeling and excitement I was looking for. I actually had more fun in the dct.
unretrofiedforyou@reddit
Honestly I’d say I was let down by the Shelby gt350 and i owned one for 6 years (also 2 other mustangs before that). I find the ones that claim the 350 to be ‘gods car’ never really gave the earlier mustangs a chance and it’s sad because the 350 DOES NOT drive really any more different than those 🥲 except maybe that it can rev another 2-2.5k than a modern coyote 🤷🏻♂️ but that new F and G chassis M2 , much more responsive and ‘turny’ rotatable but again it’s all IMO 🙃
daxelkurtz@reddit
There are muscle cars, there are sports cars, and there are enthusiast cars.
Muscle cars are fast in a straight line. Sports cars are fast in the curves. Enthusiast cars feel good to drive, particularly on public roads and at lower speeds.
BMW is very good at making cars that are very fast and handle well. The M2 blurs the line between sports car and muscle car in a way that is very impressive. (It's also pretty fucking comfortable in there).
But BMW does not make enthusiast cars. They haven't in half a decade and they've been trending this way for a lot longer than that.
I think you are entirely correct that the modern M2 is not a fun street car.
...it is hard to make enthusiast cars anymore. I get that. There are several reasons why.
Not a lot of of market demand.
Not a lot of people can afford to buy and maintain a car that will almost certainly be a second car, and possibly usable only part of the year.
Some people just buy track cars for that purpose, and so they can go more enthusiast.
Technology has overridden a lot of enthusiast attributes (i.e. steering feeling).
There's a fine line between some of the things we desperately want as enthusiasts, and things that are just design/production flaws. (Looking at you, Emira).
Robust used market.
There are still a few enthusiast cars on the market. There's the Miata. And the Civic Type R. And the Emira? And I think the Blackwings?
Anyway... take care of that 996, is my advice.
NuclearReactions@reddit
For comparison how do clutch and trans compare to that of an sti? (It's the only sporty car with stock shit i have to get a reference)
yobo9193@reddit
Both are better
NuclearReactions@reddit
Damn that's crazy
kon---@reddit
People in here actually comparing a 6 vs 8 cylinder for feel.
Raw...raw means lack of refinement. It's a vehicle denied the expense of becoming improved in favor of a direct connection to the monkey brain behind the wheel.
Honestly, raw is misused as well misunderstood in automotive circles.
DragonSurferEGO@reddit
The m2 is one of the best cars BMW has produced in a long time. But Porsche’s gearbox is much better, shifts feel better and the clutch isn’t so soft. BMWs electrical steering has always been numb, again Porsche is just at a higher level.
W9967@reddit
You have pointed out to one major issue that plagues most modern cars (electronic steering numbness) and two more specific issues centered around shifting experience only. Then you pointed out to other major areas where it’s excellent.
If you expected no cons and only pros, yes, f87 m2s, like most other cars, are not perfect in every single way. But it’s a hell of a package and most people are fine putting up with a few quirks.
Reality is, as an owner I got used to the steering, and can live with the shift issues for having a car with a great sense of humor and gorgeous looks.
DiCePWNeD@reddit
EPS and BMW manual box with CDV moment
biggymomo@reddit
I took one to an auto cross circuit, performed really well there I thought
merlin6014@reddit
I owned an M2C for 18 months 1) don’t get what your talking about the steering is telepathic 2) don’t know I have dct which is flawless 3) this happened to me the first week, it was user error very very sensitive throttle - you learn it then it’s flawless too. I’ve had 25 or so performance cars and this is up there with the most fun I’ve owned I normally change 6-12 months.
StrangeMedium3300@reddit
this was my attainable dream car. i was pretty set on picking up one of the later MY ones until i drove a family member's multiple times, and i agree with your thoughts. i actually found my fk8 civic type r to be more fun and engaging despites its own flaws. picked up an ND2 after, and i've just come to realize that i just want a manual car that gives as much input and feedback as possible. if i need speed, i can pick up a tesla.
dam_sharks_mother@reddit
Interesting mix of cars being mentioned here, as it turns out I've owned a couple of them. 2017 GT350, 2018 Alfa QV, drove both a F87 M2 and M2 Comp, also owned a 15 M3 and spent time behind the wheel of a G80 M3.
First thing is first, the BMWs are only acceptable as DCT. Yes the manuals are that bad.
The M2 Comp is the best BMW has made in a decade but even then I would still prefer the GT350 or the Alfa in terms of driving engagement and performance.
I'm in 911's now, on my second one with a 991.2 GT3, but I still miss my Shelby and the Alfa. They are both very sweet, very charismatic cars and just so much better than the M2, G80, or the F80.
I think the M2 gets so much love because it's the only modern BMW that is even close to what the brand used to be, it's a good car. But if you put 100 people behind the wheel of both the Alfa and the M2 comp I would guarantee you that 95 of those people would find the Alfa more thrilling as well as more comfortable.
OvernightExpert@reddit
I'd still rather have a bad manual than an auto. So much of the experience is lost otherwise. Unless you're racing to be competitive.
andychinart@reddit
Even if the auto was an M dct or porsche PDK? I dunno, between a shit manual box and a pdk, I think I'd go for a pdk.
OvernightExpert@reddit
There's something special in handling the engine yourself. There's a deeper connection, and its rewarding. Take that away and its like a videogame.
andychinart@reddit
As someone with a manual, I obviously know paddle shifting isn't nearly the same, but I think paddles on a really good auto like dct/pdk is a good compromise. The problem with autos in economy cars is the slushboxes in them give you 0 control over what gear you're in, but at least paddles you can control it precisely.
Jaggerjaquez714@reddit
It disappointed me as well mate, felt sluggish and dull imo.
The OG M2 was much better, the Comp is certainly faster and more capable but it just has all the issues you say
Zcube73@reddit
was thinking about an M2 as they're getting quite affordable now... had a 1M for 10 years but the prices now are making me look at the M2 instead...
Actual_Percentage385@reddit
Agree on the steering, couldn't find a difference between the steering of an M2 and X1 the shifter was rubbery. But it runs on regular fuel and has a short wheelbase so theoretically speed breakers shouldn't be an issue.
granolaraisin@reddit
BMW shifters have always been a bit rubbery with horrible 1-2 shifts. You get used to it and they are direct enough that I never missed shifts but it’s acknowledged that BMW shifters were never all that great.
sire_blumpkin@reddit
I mostly agree with this. BMW M cars are luxury cars first, sports cars second. Even more so since the F and G series cars. I loved my old M2C for its nuke of an engine, its timeless looks and its practicality as a 2+2. The rest is outclassed by competitors.
goaelephant@reddit
When BMW ditched the Getrag 420 (think E39 M5, E46 M3, E31, etc.) and instead went with ZF S6-53 (as in the M2 you drove and pretty much every performance L6/V8 BMW since E92/E60 days), the shifting quality took a huge nosedive. That being said, when driven "luxuriously" it is quite a smooth & quiet transmission. And there is a way to drive the ZF quickly, but it requires the driver to be very preemptive & deliberate but in a very calculative way. It's not forgiving as a T56/TR6060 for example.
I wouldn't call it the worst ever in a performance car, the Volvo S60R/V70R feels even more lifeless/mushy, the Porsche 7-speed is notoriously inferior to its 6-speed counterparts, I hear the Aston Martin 7-speed is also a bit meh. I would rate modern BMW (ZF) manual gearbox 6.5/10 , the older Getrag 420 was 7.5 or 8/10 in my opinion. BMW transmissions have always been on the rubbery side, but keep in mind they are meant to be driven luxuriously when not hooning. It's not the same type of car as Corvette or Mustang with beefy, chunky BorgWarner/Tremec gearbox.
If you want to drive a really meh transmission from a German car - several times worse than BMW - pretty much any Mercedes ever built (except 190E Cosworth, which again, had a Getrag similar to E30 M3).
TheSkyline35@reddit
I mean yes, modern BMW manual are very good and smooth driven like a gentleman, but when going into a more serious driving, it is lacking in speed and engagement. And that 1-2 shift is really poor
hooskworks@reddit
Your not crazy but the reality of the modern BMW product stack is that they're designed to all feel approximately the same until you hit the limit of performance for a particular car.
That hyperactivity in the steering, you'll find that on a rental spec 320e complete with the tramlining but the M2 will take you a lot further if you're good enough... You don't really feel the difference until you push the envelope by design.
What you're talking about is cars with more character and maybe less of the technical ability or where they don't have equivalent so there's isn't anything else to be like them.
Wassy4444@reddit
Happy with mine for what it is. It ain’t the end all be all but it provides me about the same amount of fun as a 991.2 Turbo S without the straight line speed - that’s a lot of fun for the money. The steering certainly isn’t perfect and the stock suspension is under-damped but you’re not going to get a better dual-duty car for the money. If you’re going into it expecting some sort of automotive bliss sports car experience you will be disappointed. More focused cars at the price point are too compromised on practicality if you can only have a single car and cars that are significantly better are double the price or more. Otherwise, yes, I’d rather be driving a Blackwing, Miata, Cayman, Emira, 911, etc.
By the way, a set of coilovers and a good alignment fixed any “twitchiness” and brought some feeling back into the wheel for me.
PeterFechter@reddit
For purely performance and feel it lacks some, but to most people it makes up with the amenities and quality. BMW never was an all around performance brand, it's the blend that made it famous.
GJPENE@reddit
I left bmw in 2018 after my M235. Went Japanese. Have 24 Type R. Very happy. It’s pro only the closest thing out there that feels like old BMW of 20 years ago.
Celsius1234@reddit
It’s also horrible.
BahnMe@reddit
What tires did it have?
Also, BMW Getrag and other six speed boxes have never been that great. They're rubbery and clutch points confusing because of CDVs. It's honestly one of the poorest manual experiences compares to say an E30.
longgamma@reddit
In all honesty, what did you expect ? BMW caters to rich people who want a car than can safely let them drive fast. It had 1000s of electronic nannies to prevent its owners from ending up in a ditch upside down.
I am not saying your experience is invalid or wrong in anyway. But you would also find 10 people who love their m cars.
Ayatori@reddit
It's very refined, in a way that makes it an amazing do-it-all daily sports car experience but yeah in general it's not particularly focused and excellent at any one thing enough to stand out to someone who's driven a lot of more focused, purpose-built cars.
Still a very good, technically perfectly great car but overall kinda forgettable.
hydrogarden@reddit
I absolutely love mine. To each their own. I have driven it back to back with a 992 S and it does feel like an unrefined toy but it’s also 1/3 the price.
Jigagug@reddit
Even the sportiest bmw's are luxury tourers I guess.
DandyHands@reddit
Honestly I don’t quite get why the M2 comp weighs more than my BMW M4
mr_lab_rat@reddit
It doesn’t. We are talking about the F87
DandyHands@reddit
I know you are talking about the F87. The F87 M2 Comp DCT does weigh more than my G82 M4 CSL. The manual F87 M2 comp is about the same weight (like 20 lb lighter). My point is the M2 isn’t as light as people think it should be.
nyc_honda@reddit
i had a bmw m340, got rid of it in a month because the steering was exactly how you described. "numb and dumb", car couldn't stay straight and no road feedback at all.
scalpster@reddit
This there is your problem. Spoilt by a legendary naturally aspirated V6 …
Bonerchill@reddit
Most assuredly not a vee.
FeanorsBlade@reddit
Not a V6.
cheezturds@reddit
Electric steering is so fucking terrible, I refuse to own a “fun” bmw newer than 2013.
mr_lab_rat@reddit
The F8x power steering is better than non M cars.
lt1camaro@reddit
BMW has lost most feel since the F chassis.
Going from E92 M3 to F82 the difference was obvious. F82 m4 was numb, lacked feel, and sounded bad.
The f87 M2CS was the same situation. Reviewers considered it the best car BMW has made, but it was just as numb as the f82 m4 I owned. The new G chassis BMW’s are even more numb than that gen.
GadFlyBy@reddit
I had a 135i, the a 1M, and I went to get the M2C, but hated it for similar reasons.
de_rats_2004_crzy@reddit
It’s so hyped that it’s hard to argue against it being overrated.
Probably have to put yourself in the shoes of the people excited by it, especially at the time. The M2 was seen as the successor of the 1M which was and continues to be seen as a legendary car in a world where BMW, and the industry more broadly, is being seen as going in a direction contrary to what car enthusiasts enjoy.
I think steering has always been one of the top complaints for the M2. It may have been masked a bit in reviews because it was seen as the best electric steering BMW had made until then after many criticized prior iterations. But yeah, objectively worse in feel than older cars from the previous decade.
I drive a manual M2 and have driven BMW manuals since 2013. The entire time I’ve known BMW boxes are criticized for mushy feeling. I’ve got some seat time in GTIs, Miatas, Minis and frankly that gave me some perspective into what other clutches and gearboxes feel like. Basically it made me feel like BMW’s was fine and I didn’t understand the big deal everyone made about it. Notably I don’t have time in Porsches which is obviously seen as the holy grail. The only exception is my friend got a 2000 Boxster recently and I drove it for about 30 minutes. I felt like the clutch was extremely heavy and honestly unlike any other car I’ve ever driven. Maybe this is what enthusiasts like? But part of me wondered whether something was wrong lol - and how it would compare to the feel of newer Porsche models.
In general the 1-2 shift takes practice but like others have mentioned there’s a simple mod people do to help.
Overall I still love the car. I’m happy to be an owner and I hope to still have it decades from now. It’ll be a fun weekend car in a world of electric cars. I think the exterior looks amazing too.
xangkory@reddit
The steering wheel is thick and it is awesome.
randeus@reddit
I personally like thick steering wheels tbh.
komrobert@reddit
Honestly I preferred the non-competition car, I might just be an S55 hater though lol. The thing I love about the F87 is how well balanced it feels, so easy to control the rear end when it steps out (when I make it). Steering never bothered me, the manual is a little meh in stock form though.
I still really like the platform, want to drive a G87 manual now after seeing some reviews recently.
Carrera_996@reddit
BMWs are great, but you've been spoiled. Mustangs and 996's have the most responsive steering of bloody anything. BMW clutch would seem too light for you. You have to push the clutch in like you mean it on your compared cars. I had a Mustang that my girlfriend at the time couldn't drive. She wasn't heavy enough to push the clutch and keep her butt in the seat.
macgirthy@reddit
Don't worry OP, some people just dont know a good thing when they drive one. I fricken love mine and got it tuned to 490whp. Its a hoot.
I also have a gen V Viper, that has an even thicker steering wheel. I bet you'll say that sucks too lol. Its all good, its all in taste, some people love flat ass and flat chested women, some like curvy. Different strokes!
I do agree that the shifter is a disappointment. I'm considering getting that fixed. Other than that the M2C has been amazing for me. Especially since I got mine tuned. Its a small fun car, great daily. Even taking it up and down California.
HeavyHands@reddit
I bought one in 2019 and agree with everything here. Seats are also weirdly too tall. On point three at least there's a quick mod to improve the 1-2 shift that your buddy should do. They just need to google m2 clutch delay valve removal.
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