Will Airline Pilots Salary Decrease in the Future?
Posted by Popular_Ordinary6272@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 182 comments
I am a sophomore in college who is interested in aviation but does not know too much about how contracts work or the power of unions. From my understanding Pilots in the U.S are paid disproportionally more than their European counterparts. I remember seeing a video where a German Captain said that a first year FO at a legacy makes triple what he does. My question being, is the U.S pay rate extremely inflated and just a bubble that will be popped in the next 5-10 years or is the norm going forward?
LawManActual@reddit
Probably a fair bet that US pilots will be making more than their Euro counterparts for a very, very long time.
No-Version-1924@reddit
US airline industry is based on boom-bust. When the times are great, pilots are paid in gold. When the times are rough, no-one is hiring for a decade. On the other hand, apart from a year or so after 9/11, airlines have been recruiting pretty continuously in Europe, so even in tough times it's not impossible to get an airline job, especially if you've got a little bit of experience.
I like your crystal ball, though. Not even 15 years ago there were a lot of Americans flying both in Europe and in the Middle East, which seems incomprehensible today...
Yesthisisme50@reddit
Well US airline pilots have always been paid better than “Europeans”.
The 1500 hour rule was the best thing to happen to US pilots. It increased pay and QOL tenfold
VividBackground3386@reddit
Saying US airline pilots have always been paid better than European ones, is just utter rubbish.
As an example, using major carriers, in 2008 - a British Airways new hire was making $140k+. A US major new hire was making 40-something an hour. That was at the time after many years (often over a decade) in the Pt 91 and regional doldrums - which the BA pilot didn’t have to do.
A BA widebody captain was making $280k. Only FDX and UPS had pay rates over $200.
Like I said. Your statement is just plain false.
It’s better now for sure, but - and I doubt the American mind can comprehend this - there is a lot more to life than a job. Despite having the right to work in the US, it’s bottom of my list of the 5 countries I could work in. I’ve been laying over there since I left 15 years ago, and witnessed a frankly astonishing deterioration - in everything but equity markets (which I get to exploit, too). Zombies, needles, poverty, anger, crime, shootings, Kevlar school bags, division… Oh, and an orange rapist that’s masquerading as a politician.
The current, very high pay scales aren’t even close to tempting me back 😂
beercanpilot@reddit
Ah yes the financial crisis of 2008. That's an excellent year to compare! /s
VividBackground3386@reddit
It was like that for over a decade.
beercanpilot@reddit
Ya I get that. If you're gonna cherry pick years to try and prove a point, why arent you using United's contract 2000 compared to their European counterparts at the time?
VividBackground3386@reddit
I’m not cherry-picking anything. I was refuting the assertion made above, that US airline pay has always been higher than in Europe.
That is demonstrably not true.
Yesthisisme50@reddit
It has been true. You’re being disingenuous and nit comparing the top airline of Europe with the top airline of the US.
VividBackground3386@reddit
BA wasn’t, and isn’t the top airline of Europe. And as I said, only FDX and UPS had $200+ payscales during that time - which was still vastly lower than their BA equivalent.
beercanpilot@reddit
I never said Europe has always lacked. UAL contract 2000, 2004 rates 12 yr 320 captain $253.99 and 12 year 747 captain $355.82. Please help enlighten this typical American, which European airline was significantly better for several years during this time and what was their rate?
VividBackground3386@reddit
It clearly wasn’t during that time. Any level of reading comprehension would clarify that. My initial comment
However, post 9/11 bankruptcy contracts, up to 2015 or so, BA/LH/AF had significantly better contracts.
My initial point (if you bothered to look) was in response to Yesthisisme who stated “American carriers’ pilots have always been better paid than Europeans”.
That is not true. Case in point above. They were before, and they are now. But that isn’t the point I made.
beercanpilot@reddit
I asked for equivalent Euro carrier pay rates in the time period of approximately 2000-2004. Which I’ve yet to hear an answer for. Instead, I was just given needless commentary on something I did not ask nor care about.
VividBackground3386@reddit
You chimed in on a discussion that didn’t include you.
A comment was made by someone that US carriers have ALWAYS paid better than their euro counterparts.
I stated that was not that case. I provided an irrefutable example.
You chimed in with an irrelevant point to the one I made, with the lack of awareness (and comprehension) to see that, and accuse me of needless commentary. Classic.
No-Version-1924@reddit
Can't convince some of these people.
They are like America 1000 everybody else 0, while doing lalalalalala with the fingers in their ears.
VividBackground3386@reddit
Yep. Standard.
beercanpilot@reddit
"typical for an American" 🙄 lol ok buddy but just as you said, I didn't say the US was the only country affected soooo ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Yesthisisme50@reddit
Thank you for leaving
VividBackground3386@reddit
The pleasure was (and continues to be) all mine.
Yesthisisme50@reddit
This sub is about flying. You don’t have to bring politics into every conversation
VividBackground3386@reddit
I refer you to my first response; to which you didn’t respond.
Strangely enough, being non-American, I don’t bring politics into everything. It must be that my European mind can’t comprehend it. Not enough burgers/bullets to keep it functioning, clearly.
No-Version-1924@reddit
QoL = dollars, baby, nothing else.
Who cares that I can live in my home town, have dinner with kids every night and pick them up from school most days, when I could be in some hotel for half a month, but get $500k a year, if I worked in the USA?
No-Version-1924@reddit
You really need to learn a bit of history. Didn't Colgan FO commute from Seattle to New York, because the only place they could afford was living with their parents on the other side of the USA?
I've been doing this job for quite a while, and I've yet to meet anyone who had to commute just because of living costs.
Yes, because it was horrendous before that, alongside with archaic flight time limitations.
Yesthisisme50@reddit
You’re comparing a regional airline with non-regional European carriers.
I know the European mind cannot fathom the new pay and QOL that happened after the Colgan crash. But to cite one Colgan example as your argument is a bit disingenuous.
I made almost $200k my first year once I left a regional airline. That’s $180k in your Euro. I doubt any European airline could match that
No-Version-1924@reddit
Where did you get that idea?
A regional carrier in my country was paying CRJ FOs around €50-60k gross in 2009. Colgan FO pay was what, $30k tops?
I'm glad you get paid tons of money now, I really do, but the argument you've made is that "US airline pilots have always been paid better than the Europeans", which is factually incorrect.
Yesthisisme50@reddit
What’s your typical European crew meal? A cigarette and a tomato slice?
No-Version-1924@reddit
I see reading comprehension isn't exactly your strong point.
beepbeepimmmajeep@reddit
If you have to resort to insults in an argument, you have none.
No-Version-1924@reddit
I did try to be polite while getting "European mind can't comprehend..." and "European crew meal is a cigarette" type of replies, but there comes a time when you have to call a spade a spade.
Yesthisisme50@reddit
Again. I’m comparing US Major airlines with European Major airlines.
VividBackground3386@reddit
Looking around American cities, you wouldn’t know what to do with a tomato.
ThatLooksRight@reddit
Throw it?
VividBackground3386@reddit
Best case scenario, they turn it into ketchup.
mikeindeyang@reddit
Air france pilots used to get a glass of wine with their food. You weren't far off though.
AltoCumulus15@reddit
There’s no point arguing, this sub is one of the most anti-European around it constantly reeks of xenophobia.
XxVcVxX@reddit
How long did you spend making $14/hr as a CFI while the Euro guy makes 80k with health insurance as a 320 FO?
Ludicrous_speed77@reddit
For most people, 1-2 years depending on the hiring market. Most Euro guy don't start with 80k either. Europe still has a lot of pay to fly scheme for pilots starting their careers, so while US CFI is out there getting paid nothing, some European pilots are paying to work for an airline.
Most US-based pilots get the upper hand when it comes to pay after 3-4 years that's assuming today's regional pay vs European major airline pay. We are not even talking about Legacy airline pay.
CaptAPJT@reddit
It’s swings and roundabouts, there’s not an awful lot of pay2fly in Europe but I won’t dispute that it does exist and tends to be miss sold to ignorant new pilots “737 type rating +500hrs.” There’s also a number of low hour pilots paying for type ratings as a requirement to land a job, not ideal but some see it as an investment in their future, pay 30k for a TR to see a six figure salary within a few years.
What often seems to be forgotten is how the exchange rate has changed. The dollar today is much stronger against the pound and euro than it was twenty years ago. I remember when it was $2/£1 today it’s $1.30 so my salary back then would have been about $300k today it’s $196k. When I go into stores in the states I’m often shocked at the price of groceries. So while I’d love to get the pay cheque my US colleagues do, I think the higher cost of living would quickly see a lot of it disappear.
Yesthisisme50@reddit
How long are you going to stay flying a 120?
XxVcVxX@reddit
I fly for a US carrier, and the 120 isn't the only plane I've ever been typed on.
OrionX3@reddit
I know this isn't the point, but I was doing $35/hr and later $40/hr as a CFI for 1.5 years. Not super detrimental
Boeinggoing737@reddit
I don’t see that happening. There are risks that jobs could be outsourced, foreign based crews allowed similar to cruise lines or shipping through buying congress, or allowing single pilot cruise/multi-crew licenses/ or single pilot cargo but these are mostly dead on arrival or a huge fight. Europe has allowed flags of convenience like Norwegian air and low time cadets in the right seat at 200 hours. With a lot less restrictions on carriers to create “new” airlines flying the same metal under a different certificate. BA open skies 757 airline. There will always be attacks on the profession but airlines that try and redesign the wheel end up paying one way or the other. If you hire low time people they are very likely to make poor decisions, bang up planes, or the worst outcome. In the US the big 4 have a lot of market share, a DOJ that is limiting smaller airlines to merge, with the economics of regional jets being poor and the unions already seeing the scope issues detriment to their people 30 years ago… I don’t see a drastic decrease in legacy pay in the us.
sennais1@reddit
There are already foreign crews in the USA, Australians who sign the exact same contract as Americans do with the exact same pay, conditions and bargaining power.
There is a reason many aren't leaving to go back to Aus but to the old traditional expat hiring airlines in Asia and ME. Yes there is no collective bargaining and the pay isn't quite there. But QOL and conditions are far beyond anything on the table any US airline can provide.
Is any airline in the US going to put a an allowance towards your mortgage, give you a car, pay for full medical coverage for the family, pay for your commute, pay for the kids schooling or provide them with travel benefits for life?
Boeinggoing737@reddit
The legacy pilot gets to live in the USA or Europe vs the middle of no where. They give those perks because no one wants to live there or be stuck being owned by a company. The novelty wears off very quickly.
sennais1@reddit
They're still owned by the seniority list just like anyone. Yes they can live anywhere but it's on their shoulders to get themselves to and from base. I'd take living in a subsidised house in Phuket with the company paying for J class flights and hotels to get to and from base though which is the increasing trend.
No-Version-1924@reddit
What was the problem with Norwegian? That they were allowed to fly to the USA?
History is full of very experienced people driving airplanes into the ground. Hasn't a very experienced AA captain recently written off an A321 in a mishandled crosswind takeoff?
European airlines hire 200h pilots, while maintain stellar safety records. I'll take better selection process and more extensive relevant training over some hours in a logbook, landing a C150 on 2000m runway in CAVOK, every day. Quality over quantity.
Yesthisisme50@reddit
Didn’t a French crew stall an airplane into the Atlantic? And wasn’t there something about GermanWings?
No-Version-1924@reddit
So did Colgan, and Pinnacle, etc.
Ah, right. I'm sure if the guy had 1500h, he wouldn't be depressed and suicidal. Fortunately in USA everybody is always honest and forthcoming about health issues with their AME, must be why the advice here is always "tell the AME everything, they will help you."
Yesthisisme50@reddit
Just another weak argument from you.
Common theme
Mispelled-This@reddit
US pilot salaries are what they are today mostly due to the Colgan Rule, so unless that gets repealed (and there’s no sign of that ever happening), they won’t go back down materially.
AltoCumulus15@reddit
I still don’t understand how flying a 172 for 1500 hours makes any material difference to commercial aviation safety, but you do you America.
sennais1@reddit
Exactly, 1500TT in the circuit without real world commercial experience would be a massive red flag on a application in Australia.
Smoopilot@reddit
And yet, that’s exactly what Australians do. They get 1500 hours then come work over in the US on E3 visas.
sennais1@reddit
Nope, 1500 means FA to get a E3. 1500 ME command maybe.
Smoopilot@reddit
Yea maybe right now, but that’s because hiring has significantly slowed. There were plenty of Australian E3 at the regionals with bare minimum experience getting hired prior to covid, I know because I flew with a ton of them.
sennais1@reddit
Not quite the case.
1500TT means nothing in Australia, especially if at pilot mills doing the student to CFI gig.
Jet time does't exist in Australia with less than 5000TT, 1500 Multi Command.
So no, they were not "bare minimum". The requirements didn't change, if you're an insurance company will you take an Aussie with 4000TT, 2000ME gained from bush flying everything between a 206 and a Metroliner or a pilot mill pilot with 1500TT?
Smoopilot@reddit
Dude, I’m talking about Australians coming over to the United States taking advantage of the 1500 hour rule. I’m not taking about people going to Australia…
sennais1@reddit
Most Aussies that took advantage of the E-3 had better hours than people in the pilot mill bubble. Hence the reasoning behind it.
AltoCumulus15@reddit
Exactly, for example, this guy had 1500 hours
https://youtu.be/aVJCH9v-X50?si=uY3e36IeN4hicq28
Smoopilot@reddit
Do you believe that an airline pilot should be required to hold an ATP certificate? Because it’s not a “1500 hour rule” it’s an “airline pilots need to hold both an ATP and a PIC type rating” rule.
AltoCumulus15@reddit
1500 hours is a requirement for ATP and it was made as a “safety” recommendation following an accident - can you show me how requiring 1500 makes for safer pilots?
Smoopilot@reddit
Yet again, it’s not the “1500 hour rule” it’s an “ATP rule”. The law already makes exceptions for different types of experience. Military pilots can hold an ATP with 750 hours. There are also exemptions for civilian pilots that allow them to hold ATPs at 1000 and 1250 hours. Direct Evidence for “safety” is hard to gather and quantify but I don’t believe it’s a coincidence that the safest 15 years in US aviation history have occurred after the law changed. If you look back prior to colgan, regional airline accident due to poor judgment and inexperience were fairly frequent.
Ultimately, the more impactful and restrictive regulation to come out of Colgan is the requirement that a 121 PIC have at least 1000 hours of 121 SIC before upgrading. That has been a bigger restriction and driver of wages and shortages than the ATP requirement and IMO, it has had the biggest positive effect on safety.
Mispelled-This@reddit
It doesn’t, and the pilots in the Colgan crash were all above 1500 anyway.
What that rule did is drastically reduce the supply of airline pilots, which gave us the leverage needed to improve the terrible working conditions that did cause that accident.
sennais1@reddit
The 1500TT though is still well below other parts of the world for a jet job. Granted if I had the choice of a regional in the USA right seat job or a left seat job flying a clapped out 404 I know which one I'd take short term. Long term doing dues gets you a far more lucrative contract in Asia or the Middle East and quicker run to a sweet expat check or management position with expenses paid for.
Mispelled-This@reddit
In most of the world, you can get in the right seat of a jet at 250—but you will either get paid peanuts or even have to pay them for the privilege.
No-Version-1924@reddit
Where I work, year 1 pay for a 200h FO is around $50-60k, and that's with European prices, not the US ones.
sennais1@reddit
Not most by any stretch, some parts of the world yes. But they're bonded just as much as places in the US.
No one on the planet is debt free and earning 6 figures on 250TT.
Bravodelta13@reddit
The ATP rule greatly limited who could start their career as 121 pilots while the CFR 117 completely overhauled rest rules and increased manning requirements for all airlines. Took a few years, but they both directly caused the pilot shortage and ensuing compensation gains.
Anphsn@reddit
This
Remarkable_Mud_5718@reddit
If you are in it for the money… Go sell houses way more easier
iHateReddit_srsly@reddit
I'd rather work at Mcdonald's than spend more time with the Real Estate industry than I have to
Independent_Stop_495@reddit
My aunt makes 20 million a year off one building she owns 3 sold majority of her buildings. Real estate is all about being smart and networking. She is her own boss now, started entry level.
If you’re in aviation for the money you probably will not be able to finish the ratings, it’s not for everyone.
Shark-Force@reddit
Real estate is not about being smart or networking, it’s about having a large amounts of cash and a lack of morality. The fact your aunt makes $20,000,000 a year on one building is not the brag you think it is.
That is why the person above would rather work at McDonald’s, at least a fast food worker doesn’t make their money off of fucking over other people.
Independent_Stop_495@reddit
Single mother with two kids back in 80s I’d say she did damn well to brag she networked met the right people, and has helped many of the tenants out they would take advantage. Not sure what your experience but you must be referring to crooked landlords. Yeah those people aren’t making a lot of money decent with no morals.
Shark-Force@reddit
There’s landlords that do take advantage, and those who don’t. To each their own. Real estate is very popular among pilots. Probably because pilots are so smart, and not because they have huge amounts of cash to spend.
Remarkable_Mud_5718@reddit
Everyone’s happiness is different 🤙🏻
AWACS_Bandog@reddit
Almost certainly.
By how much and when? Harder to say.
x4457@reddit
Nobody has a crystal ball but that's highly unlikely.
GustyGhoti@reddit
The late 90s were a great time for the airlines financially and many pilot groups were negotiating for great pay increases and contract language. Then 9/11 happened and many pilots were forced to take “temporary” concessionary contracts to help keep the company from bankruptcy or worse. Many pilot groups are still living with those concessions (mostly in QoL) even today.
I’m not saying this is you but it’s a bit naive to think we could never go backwards, it just takes one bad day. Thats why unity and strong contractual language is so important.
Killjoy911@reddit
Ya super naive…. We are at all times one disaster (ai breakthrough) away from being jobless. I’m not saying worry about it all the time… but thinking we’re not is definitely naive.
HeadAche2012@reddit
I’ve heard that automated planes are more a problem with the FAA than the technology itself
GustyGhoti@reddit
It’s definitely coming, the question is how long. Historically commercial aviation is incredibly slow to implement new technology, even when the pilots and union are on board. Here’s hoping we have a few more good years left 🍻
Killjoy911@reddit
Ya I think it’s going to be a while. But I also think it’s inevitable. Just like another war, is it far off.. maybe… is it inevitable… most likely considering the human race is ignorant and stupid.
Aivine131@reddit
To be fair though the airlines were hit by deregulation in the mid to late 90s, so 9/11 was more so the nail to the coffin for the temporary downfall of the airline industry. The downturn for the airlines at that time was more than a “bad day” toss in 2008 and you have the lost decade. It will take more than a “bad day” to get the industry to go that backwards again. I do agree with unity and strong contractual language.
__joel_t@reddit
It'll take a bankruptcy. Good thing no airlines are struggling financially here in the USA in 2024. Oh, wait.
Absent bankruptcy, I believe the most likely way wages go down will be stagnant nominal wages reducing real wages as inflation eats at them.
Aivine131@reddit
Well when I say more “bad day” I’m speaking more to of an event followed by other bad events that affects the whole industry as a whole ( 9/11, COVID, 2008) etc. Each airlines financial situation is different, so a bankruptcy would be independent to each airline. An airline could be be going bankrupt, while other airlines are striving, this has been going since the dawn of age, nothing new here.
I agree with your later statement, however this is true to every profession, which signifies an inflation problem in the economy, not a profession one.
Thats_my_cornbread@reddit
Wasn’t deregulation 1978?
Aivine131@reddit
Yes, but it still had a dramatic effect on the industry till the 90s. Ask Pan Am guys how their career went after Pan Am going out of business in 1991. Eastern went out of business as well.
BowlingBallbagBob069@reddit
That’s what I was gonna say lol
__joel_t@reddit
Deregulation was done by the famous anti-regulator... checks notes... Jimmy Carter.
stephenbmx1989@reddit
I have a crystal ball 🔮
BigBadPanda@reddit
Make sure you discuss it with your AME
HeadAche2012@reddit
Unions, 1500 hour requirements, job hours, demands, and stress, the inability to overwork pilots (fatigue accidents) high risk when failures and accidents occur all drive those wages up
Even if you have 50 1500 hour pilots you are reluctant to put them in multimillion dollar jets
Mao_Kwikowski@reddit
Airlines are pretty much banks now. They make tons of profit from their credit cards. All the airlines weathered the COVID storm without any serious repercussions.
Unions are the ONLY reason why pilot life and pay is a good it is now. Join your union and be proud of the work they have done for you and will do in the future. Pay it forward.
FormulaJAZ@reddit
There is legislation in Congress to limit the fees credit cards charge merchants, bringing it in line with debit cards. If/when that passes, all credit card reward programs will vanish overnight.
Mao_Kwikowski@reddit
Why would it impact those cards? Also business will find a way to make money.
FormulaJAZ@reddit
Credit cards charge merchants a 3% fee. There is a push to limit that to 1%, like with debit cards. As you might have noticed, you don't get rewards for paying with debit cards. If this legislation passes, the same will happen to credit cards.
Mao_Kwikowski@reddit
Do you have a link to the bill? This would kill all credit card rewards not just airline ones. I’m pretty sure JP Morgan will have something to say about that
FormulaJAZ@reddit
The banks don't want it, but every merchant in the country wants these changes badly. From Walmart all the way to mom-and-pop shops, that's a far bigger lobby than the banks and airlines.
It hasn't passed yet, but it comes up every year, and it is pretty much inevitable that it will pass eventually.
https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=credit+card+legislation&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
lefrenchkiwi@reddit
Because those fees are what funds those rewards programs.
Credit card fee limiting legislation decimated credit card rewards programs in my country.
No-Version-1924@reddit
With just a tiny, completely insignificant, nobody ever noticed, $50bn bailout from the US government.
Mao_Kwikowski@reddit
“Too big to fail” FTW
sennais1@reddit
Eggs in one basket, what could go wrong?
andrewrbat@reddit
Triple? A captain in Germany makes 40k? Thats sad. They are underpaid, we aren’t overpaid.
sennais1@reddit
I'm calling BS on that claim.
Popular_Ordinary6272@reddit (OP)
After doing more research I found that while his youtube handle says Captain his linkedin shows he was always a first officer. However he does say that a first year in America made more than 6 years in Germany(ig as a FO) in which my point still stands of such a big discrepancy.
andrewrbat@reddit
Yeah hope ur right.
sennais1@reddit
Anyone at a big flag carrier is on as good a deal, if less money better QOL and better RP options than a US legacy. Outside of the USA unpaid commuting is as popular as syphilis.
No-Version-1924@reddit
200h airline pilots earn more than 40k in Europe, but it's just easier to stay ignorant and spout some nonsense around, as you can see on this thread.
sennais1@reddit
Yanks gonna yank.
pjlaniboys@reddit
The US has a huge salary bubble compared to elsewhere. This is only for certain career jobs and the airlines are one. The single pilot ops being developed by airbus is an indication of the sustainability for the pilot career.
snoandsk88@reddit
Decrease? Unlikely
Continue to be nibbled away by inflation and drawn out negotiation cycles? Probably
TheJerkStore_@reddit
Skilled laborers in the US typically make significantly more than their European counterparts, whether it be pilots, doctors, engineers etc. One must factor in cost of living and and general labor differences
AltoCumulus15@reddit
People on the sub forget income does not measure quality of life.
My American cousin on paper makes more money than me, except when you factor in $200,000 student debt, private medical insurance, long working hours, extortionate housing costs, and 8 paid days vacation a year.
Yeah…no thanks.
TheJerkStore_@reddit
You’ve missed the point. I was saying that relative to standard of living, pay in Europe likely affords you a similar quality of life.
I always appreciate a good anecdote, but anecdotal evidence is not evidence. My counterparts at BA have a 35 year pay scale, US carriers have 12, Lufthansa management lamented how “tough” it was going to be to allow their pilots to have 10 min days off a month. That’s to name a few.
Your American cousin has a shitty situation, I wouldn’t want to be him, but I probably wouldn’t want to be you either.
sennais1@reddit
Fact of the matter is outside of the USA more paid leave, sick days, free healthcare etc is a thing. There is a reason Asia and the sandpit are looking pretty appealing to Aussies doing the E-3 in the USA.
It's not 90s good, but every dollar earned (less than the US) goes into your pocket. Company takes care of housing, tax, education allowance for kids, medical care for the family, car allowance, zero commuting (or paid if required) etc.
Things in the USA are great for pilots, but there are downsides which don't exist elsewhere.
TheJerkStore_@reddit
I don’t think any of us here are talking about the Gulf carriers. I’d take an EU or American carrier instead of being an indentured servant
sennais1@reddit
Yeah 100% you wouldn't take an entry level DE job with a TR bond in either the ME or the EU (which is a closed shop to Europeans anyway).
However the contract deals aren't "indentured servants". The downside is no collective bargaining but you're paid what you're worth. They've worked out localisation isn't going as well as planned and Raj isn't doing as good a job as he should while expat pilots can flow to management.
But recruiters are offering good independent contracts. It's a money grab game. A decent logbook will get a better deal in the sandpit or Asia than having to commute, do four day trips and live the crash pad life in the USA.
Some even get paid for their commute from Phuket and Bali with a housing allowance. Even after the 49ers thing CX reinstated a lot of expat allowances like kids getting staff travel for life.
More money in pocket means quicker retirement.
Starboard314@reddit
If anything, look at the TA (contract) that Air Canada and its pilots of ALPA negotiated. If anything, there’s a push to bring other nations’ air carriers more in line with US standards.
canadianbroncos@reddit
That contract isn't anything to get excited about lol
AirlineKing98@reddit
Anyway of seeing the proposed TA signed by yall?
ajmomoho@reddit
Here
canadianbroncos@reddit
I'm not AC, but I'm sure it's an easy Google.
stephen1547@reddit
There are major problems (mostly for junior guys) with the now-approved TA, but the reality is that the roof of the payscale still went up by 42%. Other carriers are going to be forced to bring up their pay scales to compete, which is great for everyone.
__joel_t@reddit
Well, great for everyone except for any consumers who have to pay more in airfare to fund that increase in pilot wages.
stephen1547@reddit
Air Canada made $2.3 billion in profit last year. Even waaaaaay over-estimating that every single one of the 5200 Air Canada pilots got an extra $75,000 per year, that’s only $390 million. They would still have made $1.9 billion.
__joel_t@reddit
"Other carriers are going to be forced to bring up their pay scales to compete."
This specifically talks about airlines beyond Air Canada, so your arguments about AC's specific financials are a non sequitur.
Additionally, you're assuming the greedy corporate assholes running AC are going to be content missing that $390 mil in profit and won't try to make it up by doing things like increasing airfare and other junk fees.
I'm all for pilot groups negotiating the most money they can. Good for them. Just don't pretend that it's going to be a free lunch, that it won't cost anybody else anything. There's no such thing as a free lunch.
canadianbroncos@reddit
The increase per ticket is like 2$ lol gtfo.
GAU8Avenger@reddit
days off
Probably
vARROWHEAD@reddit
The one that basically conceded that Canadian pilots are not in fact world class and should be paid well below American counterparts with many more days worked?
_BaldChewbacca_@reddit
Not sure why you're getting downvoted so much. The contract was pretty bad. Everyone focuses on this 42%. No one wants to talk about how a new fo STILL makes less than a bus driver, or that AC pilots have the worst quality of life rules of any airline. I'm absolutely shocked that AC pilots are still forced to train on days off, like wtf is that?!
vARROWHEAD@reddit
Still the “NHL of Airlines” though right?
Hessian_Rodriguez@reddit
Europe as a whole pays less on everything. It has more to do with social safety nets and worker protections than anything else.
sennais1@reddit
It's a fickle bitch. Things can and will turn south at some point as always. Pay won't go south but furloughs and lay offs will always be there. If airlines go bust and need a bail out say goodbye to the CBAs.
ZB0Y99@reddit
I think if you look across the board at other highly specialized professions, you will see the same trend. Americans make a whole lot more than their counterparts.
TRex_N_Truex@reddit
Pay involuntarily goes down in bankruptcies.
Pay voluntarily goes down when pilots vote in a substandard contract.
Pilots at respectable union shops with strong leadership will not vote in substandard contracts.
Pay isn’t just going to go down because management wants it to.
Healthy_Look_9920@reddit
Yes, when they are replaced by automated systems.
girl_incognito@reddit
It has in the past, it may again in the future... I can tell you this, though, I have not been unemployed for more than 45 minutes in 20 years.
Acceptable-Wrap4453@reddit
This checks out.
girl_incognito@reddit
I took a long road to get here but I don't regret a day of it.
Acceptable-Wrap4453@reddit
I can imagine it was a very long road. Do you own an aircraft? I feel like you’d have to with an A&P/IA.
girl_incognito@reddit
I don't, maybe someday ;)
FlyingSpectacle@reddit
When they replace us with computers, it will probably go to arroooouuuund. Zero. So in the future? Yes. In the foreseeable future? I dunno
Bravodelta13@reddit
Elon Musk has been promising us self driving cars for the last decade. Advancements have been made the technology still hasn’t matured. We’re talking vehicles, traveling in a 2 dimensional plane at speeds less than 100mph. Fully automated aircraft are several decades away.
FlyingSpectacle@reddit
Several decades is in the future isn’t it?
Bravodelta13@reddit
Several decades is not, as you mentioned, in the “immediate future.” I was elaborating and supporting your general premise.
FlyingSpectacle@reddit
You were elaborating my general premise with a false equivalency? I never said immediate future. As for the foreseeable future I said “maybe” as in, who knows
Bravodelta13@reddit
It’s pretty clear you don’t understand the underlying technology or what a false equivalency is. Have a great night.
FlyingSpectacle@reddit
It’s clear you don’t either! Great chatting with you!
Bravodelta13@reddit
I’ll let the university that gave me an engineering degree know. Cheers
FlyingSpectacle@reddit
I’m sure!
FlyingSpectacle@reddit
Also that’s a false equivalency. Self driving cars operate in less planes than aircraft but also deal with way more unknown variables. Pedestrians don’t just jump in front of flying aircraft. Aircraft automation already exceeds vehicle automation. Why are you talking about self driving cars? Look at the advancement of aircraft automation in the last 20 years alone.
Bravodelta13@reddit
The people that build this stuff would tend to disagree. It’s the same fundamental problems in both cases, just exponentially more complicated in the case of a commercial aircraft (higher velocities/addition axis of motion)x Two meat powered control stick actuators are orders of magnitude more resilient in the unknown situations.
FlyingSpectacle@reddit
Would they really? What are the fundamental problems?
Icy_Huckleberry_8049@reddit
no one can predict the future.
After 9/11, every airline employee in the US either took a massive pay cut or were furloughed for many, many years. Many airlines didn't hire for 7, 8 or 9 years after 9/11.
PILOT9000@reddit
Regionals are going to go back to their normal pay scales over the next year and has set expiration dates. Their current pay was a temporary pay increase, and not part of their contracts.
fatmanyolo@reddit
Tf are you on about? It’s very much in several CBAs.
PILOT9000@reddit
Some. Not all, by any means.
fatmanyolo@reddit
Oh, sure, but I highly doubt any regional significantly decreases their pay from what several have codified into their CBA. That’s a good way to hemorrhage pilots.
PILOT9000@reddit
Hemorrhage pilots to where? Where is this massive demand?
theoriginalturk@reddit
Just wait for **franticly goes through notes
Boeing and airbus to deliver thousands of planes from thin air
Also: even though some airlines have passed peak retirements let’s continue to beat that drum cause otherwise we might realize that there were plenty of reasons prior to 2019 that caused people to not want to be professional pilots in the first place and that the amazing growth probably won’t be as amazing as advertised
PupCharger@reddit
Arby's
LostPilot517@reddit
Bonuses, and not wages.
PILOT9000@reddit
What are you going on about?
Anphsn@reddit
Haven't some regionals extended them until further notice or CBA?
PILOT9000@reddit
Some, but like you said the company chose to extend for now. They’re not contractually held to it and can reduce the pay back to CBA rates as they see fit after the LOA expiration date.
LostPilot517@reddit
A lot of the regionals have bonuses and advertise 1st year pay as $XXXXXX, or earn $XXXXXX in 5 years. Those values are including bonuses.
The pilot groups/unions didn't take advantage of the pilot market to secure increased rates in base pay. They are retention bonuses, or Captain qualified bonuses, or prior 121 experience bonuses.
Bonuses are not base pay, and can be eliminated at the will of management.
PILOT9000@reddit
True, true.
bhalter80@reddit
I think that what you'll see is wage stagnation for the next 10-15 years which will have the effect of real wage decreases but no the $$$$ on your checks won't decrease it'll be a lot more subtle than that
Real-Stock2002@reddit
Things go up, things go down. From the beginning of time. Why waste brain power asking the question?
Real-Stock2002@reddit
Aviation lags behind the general economy, and always has. Yes, salary will decrease in the future. Just like everything else is decreasing currently.
LowValueAviator@reddit
In terms of spending power they’ve decreased by like 40% over the last 4 years. Inflation.
stephen1547@reddit
Cumulative inflation for the past 4 years is at 18% in the USA. Almost every US airline pilot has received a raise more than that.
LowValueAviator@reddit
Believing government inflation figures? Idk about that bro
Aerodynamic_Soda_Can@reddit
It doesn't really matter. Virtually nobody that's just doing it for the money makes it to airlines anyway. It's a long road, and even when you make it, there's still massive lifestyle tradeoffs.
You can save yourself a lot of time, money, and frustration if you just don't start.
CharlieBoxCutter@reddit
They’re unionized so doubtful
KehreAzerith@reddit
Maybe by a small amount but overall no, I don't think the salary will change for a while, also with how much negotiating power the unions have, they pretty much choose the salary. Other western countries are trying currently trying to match US pilot salaries since they've struggled to find new pilots lately.
Falcondriver50@reddit
Yep
BrtFrkwr@reddit
Support IFALPA
TOMcatXENO@reddit
Probably, too many pilots means they’ll be willing to work for less to compete
Cap-Fae@reddit
If we could predict the future we would be billionaires from playing the stock market and sports betting, not pilots.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I am a sophomore in college who is interested in aviation but does not know too much about how contracts work or the power of unions. From my understanding Pilots in the U.S are paid disproportionally more than their European counterparts. I remember seeing a video where a German Captain said that a first year FO at a legacy makes triple what he does. My question being, is the U.S pay rate extremely inflated and just a bubble that will be popped in the next 5-10 years or is the norm going forward?
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