65 Doctors, Nurses and Paramedics: What We Saw in Gaza | 44 doctors, nurses and paramedics saw multiple cases of preteen children who had been shot in the head or chest in Gaza.

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Teasturbed@reddit

"One 4-year-old girl with major burns to her body was completely dissociated. She was staring out into space, humming a lullaby to herself. Not crying, but shaking and in utter shock.”

My son is a little bit older than her, and he loves singing himself to sleep. At that age, you are communicative and have a sense of self, while being at your purest form in terms of emotions. I've cried in my hed so many nights while reading and watching stories similar to this out of Gaza on my phone within the past year, and he caught me a few times, putting me to sleep with his lullibies.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

This is exactly why they post this videos online: you’re basically watching snuff films, and connecting “emotionally” by projecting in-group associations (your kids, family, friends) on to unrelated strangers.

Then it goes through local cultural, and ideological reasoning.

This is why people don’t care about statistics, or floor rates (every other MENA war has higher rates of this behavior), overlap (how many of these doctors are talking about the same cases), or the chance people are lying (they see Israel as an ultimate enemy, and every contemporary study we have shows in this context there is significant reason to believe they are lying, especially if they provide no evidence - and almost all deaths are from bombs, not gun fire) etc.

It’s not worth arguing about, because these issues are based on pathology and groups think.

Then they are based on internal, and external perceived reward. After that, they are based on assumed pathology based moral absolutism and self affirmation (I’m very good, you’re very bad: anything I’ve ever done is irrelevant, compared to you).

It’s just going to keep going on because, what’s going to stop it?

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MightFail_Tal@reddit

Wow ok. Also are you saying we shouldn’t feel morally pained by watching dying children because extending morality by association is bad? im not going to get into the stupidity of your attempt at discrediting the report. Given the density of such reports coming from health workers and aid workers in Gaza your points about miscounting are moot

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

Miscounting is literally what Hamas has been doing, considering ‘linear increase trends’ are impossible in real life.

When a building that houses two people, is rounded up to ten or twenty as an account for people who once lived at any time in the home - and these numbers are consistently rounded down: it doesn’t look good for your argument.

The UN itself, is half authoritarian regimes.

30% of the members are theocratic Islamic states.

You’re so far off, but here - it couldn’t be any more obvious you’re right: welcome to ‘echo chambers’.

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mnmkdc@reddit

The numbers are likely higher. Reporting is poor in the north where food is extremely scarce and many are trapped under rubble. Hamas, despite your claims, has historically been relatively accurate.

The UN isn’t super biased against Israel Either. Israel is protected from any UN action by the US. Other nations that get sanctioned have actual action taken against them . Israel is the exception due to US vetoes so the UN has to continue to make attempts. The UN in the grand scheme of the conflict has done much much more to help Israel than to hurt it.

You need to work on being empathetic. You seem to only care about proving your side is right. People are dying.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

Except most people aren’t in the North, they’re where the thousands of food deliveries are. Even in the North, hundreds of trucks (containing tons of food have been delivered).

The same thing was happening in February, the UN was claiming starvation was inevitable: at that point 300,000 tons of supplies had been delivered.

“Many are trapped under rubble”, except there’s no proof of this. Hamas already accounted for these guesses in their total, which is consistently dismissed by argent pro-Palestinians; that’s why numbers keep getting adjusted down.

“Hamas has been relatively accurate”, again this is an insane statement to make that has genuinely no proof.

“The UN isn’t biased toward Israel”, isn’t proven by the statement “Israel is protected from any UN action by the US”.

30% of Countries in the UN are Muslim theocracies, and over 50% of countries are authoritarian dictatorships.

Other Nations that “get sanctioned”, are actually doing something wrong.

Look at the list of countries condemning Israel, and their history with either Jews or general human rights.

“The UN…has done much much more to help Israel…”: in what possible sense?

“You need to work on being empathetic”, what you’re presenting is not “empathy”, and I guarantee you would score low on any test metric for gauging empathy.

“People are dying”, as they do in every war ever.

“Maybe you’re not a real person” I mean, I would say judging by your responses that would be easy to turn around - but I’m guessing you’re just easily misled, and easily convinced by your own self affirmed sense of moral superiority (or even just general awareness).

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mnmkdc@reddit

Many are there though. And it was confirmed months ago that the north faced really poor access to food and hundreds of thousands met the condition of famine.

The current numbers are based on confirmed deaths and some reporting missing for long periods of time. It’s not just them blindly assuming more are under rubble. If they’re not reported as missing they’re not reported publicly. Numbers aren’t being adjusted down. Youre referencing when the UN switched to reporting only confirmed deaths.

No proof? You know this isn’t the first war in Gaza right?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War_(2008%E2%80%932009)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Gaza_War

You’ll notice if you do more research that Hamas’s numbers more closely resemble the independent investigations than Israel’s numbers. Please educate yourself before blindly supporting Israel.

No and it’s not proven by you saying 30% of UN nations are Muslim majority either, but here we are.

The UN allowed Israel to be created and over allocated land to them. Thats far more than any sanctions the UN has put on Israel.

Youre literally downplaying atrocities. No different from people defending apartheid South Africa. Youre either a monster or lack empathy.

Youre on a new account that only defends Israel. I’m on an account that is old and spends times in other communities. I also have hundreds of comments fighting against antisemitism in pat years. Thats because I actually care about people and you care about Israel.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

https://www.voanews.com/amp/experts-northern-gaza-spared-famine-but-sustained-risk-remains/7669658.html

They don’t meet the conditions for “famine”, and they’ve been “at risk” for nearly a year.

They can go to where the food is being delivered, at any time. They choose to stay there, at the request of Hamas.

Whether you want to see that as being coerced under threat of violence by Hamas militants, is your opinion.

There’s no proof more people are “under rubble”, and this, again - is based on the metrics for how these deaths were calculated in the first place.

“If you don’t think more people are under the rubble…”, see but that’s not how the world works.

You’re taking the idea it’s been bombed over a defined area (which is often misrepresented on maps by enlarging bomb sites), and the idea it was populated as the conclusion there must be more bodies: which without evidence IS genuinely stupid.

Two heavily policed Wikipedia articles, doesn’t contain anything to prove your argument.

“Hamas numbers mirror the independent investigations” = Hamas numbers mirror oil Barron funded propaganda “aid organizations”

That doesn’t mean the same thing you’re claiming it means, and I’m giving you credibility by assuming that’s true (though it’s clearly not).

“It’s not proven 30%…”, you can just look up a list of countries and see that’s true - what a strange thing to deny.

“The UN allowed Israel…” you’ve got to be fucking kidding me - have you see the original land allotted between Trans Jordan and Palestine? Considering Israel best five nations that tried to kill them, they got nothing: let alone “over allotted”.

“You’re literally down playing atrocities”, no you’re ‘literally’ inventing atrocities and an alternative history to sequentially place them.

“You’re either a monster or lack empathy”, I’m hoping you’re under twenty something years old because if not - I have no hope for this next generation.

You’ve a massive narcissist, with very little information asserting things that could never be true.

“I have comments fighting against antisemitism”, no you don’t - you have comments agreeing with people based on contemporary performative interests.

You’re no different than any of these other people: I’m guessing you’re

Antisocial / Non functional empathy (which is is why you don’t understand the concept)
Average IQ or slightly above
Low Quantified information
Live in left wing echo chambers
Have no experience with the MENA, or are second generation from an MENA family.
Have opinions that are “anti establishment”, as a part of general antisocial tendencies
Constantly performing to self affirm moral worth in the eyes of your peers
General reward seeking behavior etc.

It’s the same pattern, with all far leftists and people easily effected by propaganda.

You try to create a world where everyone is the same, similar, or compatible - but it doesn’t exist.

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mnmkdc@reddit

Please read the actual ipc report for once. It says they found it met the conditions for famine in multiple locations except there isn’t ample reporting on deaths so they weren’t officially classifying the entire subregion as in famine. So many of you guys have been misled by poor journalism.

It is common in urban war zones in general that people are unwilling to leave their homes. This is doubly true here since Israel has a history of ethnic cleansing and has top officials publicly stating they want to do it again. Again, this goes back to your lack of empathy.

Theres very little access to the north. Most large scale urban warfare has underreported civilian casualties until after the war. Your claim is that it’s not true because we don’t have reporting. That is circular reasoning. I’m basing this off other wars and common sense.

Huh? You’re upset the Wikipedia pages are policed? The Wikipedia pages contain sources. Do at least some cursory research, this is common knowledge for most who join these conversations.

Youre going off the rails here. Now you’re discrediting every org (including American orgs) that aren’t Israel. You’re going nazi mode very quick.

You intentionally misread my comment. I didn’t say it wasn’t true that the un had that many Muslim majority countries.

Yes, I’ve seen it. Israeli settlers fought for the Negev. They wanted that land that many now claim proves they actually got bad land. They were given it because it was a pro Israel biased un decision.

Young people fought to stop us support for South African apartheid too. Older gens criticized them. This is no different. You’re on the wrong side of history because you lack morality.

I absolutely do have hundreds of comments fighting against antisemitism. Don’t pretend you read through all my comments lmao. You need to at least make your lies smaller.

Great work arm chair psychologist. “You care about civilians and therefore you’re a narcissist who lives online.” Truly phenomenal work. And you made this new account to only make pro Israel takes why?

Let me ask you the question that usually makes the bots scramble: why do you trust that Israel has good intentions when they have known terrorists advising the PM? Does Bibi having a cabinet member who tried to blow up a highway and defends murdering Palestinians publicly indicate to you that Israel actually is doing what it can to reduce civilian casualties?

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

In that first post, notice how they don’t discuss yearly deaths for malnutrition in comparison to other countries. For example, by rate - we’ve seen under reporting for the year, and on any average year more people die in US from malnutrition when accounting for population size than in Palestine.

“Meeting conditions for famine” in an evacuated area when you refuse to move, is different than actually meeting conditions.

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mnmkdc@reddit

Can you say honestly that you think Gazans have better access to food than Americans? Are you so set on defending Israel that you’re unable to understand that this implies a lack of reporting, not a wealth of food?

Okay see now you’re saying you don’t care that there’s famine. At least you’re being honest now.

No response to the terrorists in Bibi’s cabinet? The hasbara accounts never seem to respond there.

Anyway, you outright defended apartheid. You claimed there was still apartheid even though white South Africans still hold the vast majority of the wealth. This level of willful ignorance of even malice is exactly how fascists rise to power.

Rather than criticizing young people, maybe shut up and listen for once. You sound like you’ve been on the wrong side of just about every American conflict.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

No, I’m telling you to Google how many people die of malnutrition in the US, versus Palestine every year (as marked by the same aid organizations).

Most of Palestine is morbidly obese (40-60%), that’s not a sign of food insecurity.

Ifs not based on “underreporting”, because his documented by many organizations every year.

You have no proof of underreporting, and nobody is claiming it’s underreported.

“Now I see you don’t care about there being a famine”, this is just disingenuous narcissist behavior: I never said that, or implied it.

There just isn’t a famine.

I don’t have a comment on “the terrorists”, because I have no idea who you’re referring to - and apparently, you don’t either.

“Defined apartheid”, No, I didn’t.

Who cares who “holds the wealth”, I can tell you don’t know anything about South Africa, or how economics (let alone government structure) works.

“This level of…”, this is a non sequitur and an attempt to draw emotionally defined parallels that don’t actually exist, or exist within the confines of this discussion.

“Rather than…” you’re genuinely insufferable, and I wish I had the time to convey just how wrong you are.

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mnmkdc@reddit

I know what you’re saying. For one, there’s under reporting. It’s consistently reported wrong, it being done every year isn’t proof. This is common in poorer nations for all sorts of metrics. Secondly, that number you gave is wrong and isn’t even whats being reported. Thirdly and most importantly, those numbers aren’t relevant here. The amount of food they’ve gotten since the start of the war is vastly different from pre war.

Okay well the investigation said there was famine. I’m sorry this hurts your feelings, but denying atrocities isn’t a good look.

You don’t know about the terrorists? No need for quotations here. Smotrich was arrested for terrorism and released without charge. He also supports settlers killing Palestinian civilians. Ben gvir idolized a mass murderer and defends terrorists in court. If you don’t know these names, maybe you shouldn’t be defending a country you know nothing about.

You defended apartheid by saying it’s worse now than it was. You also directly said this was because of the regime change and students were wrong. The students were right. Apartheid was bad. Things are better now for most South Africans in terms of equality. The modern problems come from corruption and arent related to students being wrong.

Everyone cares who holds the wealth. That’s the biggest indicator of inequality.

Why are you getting into arguments about something you’ve done no real research on?

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

We’ve essentially hit an impasse.

You’re both denying basic information you can get anywhere, injecting ideal situations for your argument that arent true (like your claims about underreporting, or claiming there’s a famine but being able to support the argument).

Like I said, I don’t have time to argue with children. If you want to believe you’re a good person, you’re going to believe that.

The problem is, I live in the real world, and while your typing away at your keyboard wars: I’ve seen the real world.

I didn’t “defend apartheid”, I said it’s worse now than ever before - which is statistically true.

I know you’d like for that to mean “apartheid was good”, because you’re desperate (for whatever neurotic reason) to see yourself as a moral, intellectual, or emotionally enlightened person; but you’re not.

I didn’t say “students were wrong for being against apartheid”, the problem is that “students” don’t know anything, don’t have any solutions, and don’t care when they get their way and things go wrong.

It’s like being concerned with changing a lightbulb, because it’s flickering, but people around are dropping dead from lead pipes, and mold.

“Why are got getting into…

How do you want me to reply to this? To whip it out, and measure? You’re obviously young, naive, and a little narcissistic.

You don’t know what you’re talking about, you just think you do - someday, if you’re lucky: you’ll realize you were wrong.

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mnmkdc@reddit

Me: reporting is incomplete especially in the north due to lack of access to resources. Here’s an article proving this.

You: i don’t care because they chose to stay in the north. Also the reports I want to use are complete and every org that says otherwise is just biased.

I supported the famine argument. I literally sent the report saying that they found conditions of famine but aren’t classifying the entire region as famine due to a lack of reporting in the region. You just didn’t care to read it.

Yeah you live in the “real world” where apparently South Africa apartheid was better than post apartheid and now white people are oppressed there. Youre just uneducated and you’ve convinced yourself that your ignorance is the correct world view.

Thats not “statistically true” and you also said the students were wrong. The students opposed apartheid. They didn’t support a new corrupt gov. You explicitly defended it. “Statistically true” is not a thing. The majority of the population is now free. Thats not a thing that your statistics account for.

Again, you EXPLICITLY said the students were wrong to protest against apartheid. You said that. I’m not putting words in your mouth. The new corrupt government has nothing to do with the students being right or wrong. If you want to attack the new government, you did so in the entirely wrong way. You came off extremely stupid and racist by acting like the students in some way supported how the anc changed post ending of apartheid. You also said life is worse now which is a pretty bad look when before black people didn’t even have access to many of the basic requirements for freedom.

I want you to explain why you think Israel cares about the civilians of Palestine at all when they elect terrorists and run an apartheid regime in the West Bank. This isn’t something you can gloss over. This is the basis of your entire point. You are choosing to trust one side to do the right thing while deny any fact reported by anyone else.

What you prove repeatedly is that you know nothing of the regimes you’re defending. You decided who was right and who was wrong before ever looking into it.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

I’m just going to write a simple reply; anything you believe that you know, I already know - anything you think is unique to your thoughts, other people have thought.

You’re young, and Ignorant.

You see the world through a computer screen, and you interact with a keyboard.

I know more about Israel, and Palestine than you ever could, and you live in a time where you’re constantly conditioned with relativism: you don’t know what defined conditions are.

You're constantly haunted with hypotheticals, but none of them come to fruition.

It’s a false enlightenment, and it’s impossible to interact with you: people can’t tell if you’re dense, lying, or antisocial.

You keep trying to rewrite my words, no matter what I say; you tell me things I mean (as if that’s relevant), repeating what you wish I said.

It’s a thin disguise, and obviously a part of some neurotic fixation you’re forced to flex; like a tick.

You go on like this until people give up, and stop replying; you see this as a moral, and intellectual victory.

You’re desperate to control a narrative, but claim to be concerned with what people conditionally believe.

I’m sure you have some admirable qualities - if everything you say or think is genuine, but you’re so out of touch everything you do has the complete opposite effect.

You’ll be a hundred different people, if you’re lucky, before you’re me.

I’m no one, I don’t even exist; there are many people like me, and any single one of them will say the same thing.

It’s a whole world of people, and people are ruled by psychology.

You’re not an enigma, you’re a series of calculable inputs.

What do you want in this world?

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mnmkdc@reddit

You didn’t know Israel had known objective terrorists in their cabinet. You admitted to this earlier. The thing that you don’t realize about yourself is you aren’t actually convincing anyone that you’re educated. You say things that are blatantly false or completely irrelevant and it’s immediately obvious that you just went googling for stats to cherry pick or copied what you read in another thread.

I don’t think my thoughts are unique. Where are you getting that idea from? I said outright from the start that my views are shared by most humanitarian groups, student groups, and historically oppressed minorities. The majority it’s of Americans (where I live) believe in an immediate ceasefire. My view is far from unique and that’s a point I’ve been very clear on.

Yeah lol I’m sure you know a ton about Israel-Palestine. That’s why you claimed that obesity stats from before the war proved that there was no famine. Thats why you didn’t know the history of Israel’s government. That makes total sense. You must be a genius.

Why are you writing this like a poem. You can respond to a full thought in one paragraph. You could’ve just said “I know I said the students were wrong and you’re right that I phrased that horribly.” Instead you tried to write a full comment about you are actually super smart and know everything I know and more. What I said is correct. You defended apartheid by saying the students were wrong. I am also right that when students, historically oppressed, minority groups, humanitarian groups, and leftists align it usually means that they’re right. After all, most of the positive social change in this country and around the world comes from those groups.

Okay after like 10 paragraphs of nonsense deflection you wrote one meaningful question at the end. I want to see more peace, equality, and education. Those are all linked. I’m not naive enough to think peace is easy, but I am educated enough to know that what is currently going on actively works against the peace process.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

Are you on the spectrum?

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mnmkdc@reddit

Are you on the spectrum? I can’t keep doing this back and forth, and I don’t want to insult you.

Lmao. I think this response sums you up well.

“Objective terrorists” no proof.

Smotrich was arrested trying to blow up a highway to protest the gaza disengagement. There's not "no proof". This isn't a contested topic. Even right wing Israeli sources confirm this

“Convincing people you’re educated” projection, ironic.

You didn't know two of the most famous ministers in the Israeli cabinet and then you wrote a 10 paragraph thing abut how you were actually smarter than me.

“Shared by most” No, they’re not.

Lol. Earlier in the convo you agreed but said they were biased against Israel.

“Obesity stats” there’s no way to argue against this, the lowest statistic we’ve seen given is in the high 20% range - and this is the only group who’s had a statistic this low; the average is 40-60%. You can throw a temper tantrum, but it’s not an arguable point.

You clearly didn't read my comment, but I pointed out how your obesity stats that you misquoted were irrelevant. And yes, you did use them to try to say they were getting enough food now.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

He was interrogated, and never charged: because there was no evidence.
It’s not that I didn’t “know” them - it took you that long to stop making vague allusions to them.
No, I didn’t.
“Obesity stats you misquoted”, there’s no way you aren’t trolling at this point.

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mnmkdc@reddit

He was interrogated, and never charged: because there was no evidence.

He had 700 gallons of gasoline and a history of extremism. He was released because Israel doesn't take those very seriously and he didn't speak.

It’s not that I didn’t “know” them - it took you that long to stop making vague allusions to them.

These are famous confirmed actions by these ministers. Smotrich was caught attempting an act of terror. Ben-Gvir is on video with a shrine in his house for Baruch Goldstein (an infamous israeli anti-palestinian terrorist).

Not only are Pro-Palestinian people a vocal minority, but they are actively disliked by most of these others groups - which are being homogenized, and distorted by far leftist ideologies: who are often being radicalized by foreign powers (Russia, China, Iran) to destroy the west from within.

Sorry, I guess you didn't admit exactly what I claimed. You lied about pro-palestine being a vocal minority. Thats a statistical falsehood. And the you claimed these groups are being radicalized by Iran & Co.

“Obesity stats you misquoted”, there’s no way you aren’t trolling at this point.

? You wrote the wrong number for an irrelevant stats. I'm not sure what your confusion is. You were the only person who brought up obesity.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

Although it’s suspicious to have that much oil, gasoline - it doesn’t mean anything. “He refused to speak” where are you getting tjay from, Wikipedia? That’s not how law enforcement works - they search all of your records, and communications.
“Israel doesn’t care about that”, again - you’re projecting your own anti social tendency, and low mechanical comprehension on to an entire country. No country, can or does allow this behavior in the high income bracket: it’s functionally impossible, and stupid to think otherwise.
Provide evidence for these claims
They are a vocal minority, there’s no consistently represented statistic to prove otherwise. Most college students disagree, and most people disagree. You live in an online echo chamber, and are clearly susceptible to influence.
“These groups” are infiltrated by “Iran and co” it’s highly documented.
I didn’t write the wrong number, and it’s not irrelevant. Obesity rates, and malnutrition rates play into the way organizations report food scarcity. It also has to do with how organizations gauge security in times of need (like during a war). You’re desperate for there to be under reporting (which there is not), so you can believe a greater evil in your enemies (Israel, Jews etc).

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mnmkdc@reddit

I think your first paragraph shows a good combination of you being intentionally obtuse and also just not understanding Israel. They treat terrorism by Israelis very passively there. If you’re under the impression that most of those crimes lead to convictions or even charges, then you’re uneducated on this. You don’t just randomly get arrested and then accused of having gasoline.

Here’s a statement by the police:

“the arrest of the five was necessary for purposes of investigation, as the authorities have evidence linking them to the acts attributed to them, given the danger at this time of rioting and violence during the disengagement.”

Not to mention if you think this doesn’t make sense for smotrich, you don’t know a thing about him. This is a man who publicly supported price tag attacks. Price tag attacks, since you probably don’t know, are when settlers attack any random Palestinian civilian to “get even” with Palestinians after any arbitrary disruption they believe was caused by Palestinians. He also recently defended the raping of Palestinian prisoners and says Israel should starve all of Gaza.

Not sure what you’re referencing here. If you’re referring to me saying Israel doesn’t take settler violence seriously, then that’s easily provable. It’s also just common sense even amongst most Zionists.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ngo-says-only-6-of-police-probes-of-settler-violence-it-was-party-to-ended-in-charges/amp/

6% of cases of settler violence resulted in a charge. 3% with a conviction. This is amplified by the high rates of violence against civilians by the idf and Israeli police in the West Bank.

Idk what claims you’re referring to. I can only tell what your points are referring to if you include context since they don’t match up with paragraphs.
74% of Americans support permanent ceasefire :

https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2024/2/27/voters-support-the-us-calling-for-permanent-ceasefire-in-gaza-and-conditioning-military-aid-to-israel

More than half of Americans either support Palestine more or say they support them equally. For people under 30, it’s more than twice as common to be more pro Palestine than more pro Israel:

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/02/younger-americans-stand-out-in-their-views-of-the-israel-hamas-war/

So definitively no.

It’s also worth noting that if you don’t just mean Americans, most of the world is less pro Israel than America is.

And every other group is infiltrated by Israel. Look how easy it is to just say things and pretend they invalidate the argument. Groups that fight for social progress and humanitarian purposes have been pro Palestine for decades. Even Americas most recent humanitarian president, Carter, is pro Palestine. Thats usually how the trend goes.
You did. You claimed it was 43% “morbidly obese.” Most studies show the number <25% overweight AND obese (not just obese).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9998069/#:~:text=A%20recent%20survey%20conducted%20in,the%20West%20Bank%20(10).

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-67361930606-3/fulltext

On top of this, the amount of food allowed in DURING THE WAR comes from the amount of calories humans need. It’s not changed drastically due to obesity, more due to average age. That isn’t particularly relevant here though considering the food shortage in northern Gaza comes mostly from a lack of food trucks entering the region at all.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

Except he was released, because there was no evidence. I know you want there to be more to it than that, but the quote you posted explains the situation (ironically working against your argument).
More narcissistic condescension, and character destruction. You’re referencing multiple things, and trying to combine them together (despite only being cosmetically relatable) - because it fits a narrative, and makes the outcome easier to calculate.

3. Palestinians prisoners didn’t get “raped” this was completely debunked, and it was about torture charges not “rape”.

This isn’t true, and if you’re looking for anecdotal information; try the thousands upon a thousands of soldiers who have spent 24/7 keeping settler violence down, and are limited by an impossible amount of grey area operation legality.

You’re completely out of touch, but what else do I expect, from a antisocial narcissistic teenager half a world away.

Neither of those views are accurate, in the second half of the year more young people support Israel (especially on college campuses) after watching protestors. The vast majority of polls / studies don’t agree that “most Americans support a permanent ceasefire”, but you clearly live in a bubble if you don’t know that.
More than half of Americans don’t “support Palestine more”, it’s not even 70-30.
Again, picking two studies from two areas that say what you want to hear: doesn’t outperform the vast majority of literature that confirms 40-60% obesity rates. Even a 2x% floor doesn’t imply food distress before this war, so it’s not a good argument.
That’s not true, the calorie argument has been debunked again and again. You can calculate the amount of food people need by the ton, fairly easy. They’ve been over expectation by considerable amount, far about 40-50% ranges month by month - and this is after debunking the “calorie by day” argument.
That’s because the food is going to the region where everyone is, and northern gazans refuse to move. That’s like blaming the government for not getting up, and walking across town to get food. Relative to the amount of people here, they’re still getting food.
None of these “sources”, are either kind to Israel (Lancet literally has over two decades of contemporary accusations of both anti Israeli sentiment, and general antisemitism).

You are literally “cherry picking”, to find sources for your argument.

You’re posting .0000x (being generous here) of total “sources”, and the vast majority disagree with your arguments entirely.

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mnmkdc@reddit

You got stop this numbering thing. I tried to respond to your points as you numbered them and now you just changed it all over again. Just drop that and include some context in your responses or at least keep with the way I formatted it for you.

The quote says there was evidence linking them to this. They had hundreds of gallons of gasoline. We both know that you know he was doing it. I never get why you guys go this route rather than just admitting he’s a terrorist but claiming that doesn’t indicate anything about the government as a whole. I’d still disagree, but at least you’d be able to make an honest argument.

How is smotrich’s history of violent extremism not relevant here? I genuinely don’t understand how you would attempt to label that as “narcissistic condescension.”

Could you link where the rape was proven false? I am searching for it, but I don’t see any sources, including major Israeli ones saying this.

A lot of soldiers DO want to stop settler violence. I did not ever imply that all or most Israelis are evil. The state of Israel in general just doesn’t care about settler violence and if they did they wouldn’t allow two violent settlers in the cabinet. I did also give you sources on that claim.

Please link a single reliable source for your claim about a lack of support for Palestinians. Until then your argument holds no weight. You are arguing against actual polls with empty words.

“Don’t support Palestine more” is different from your original claim. You also claimed college students specifically disagree, which I proved false. Most americans under 50 think Israel’s response is wrong and the vast majority want ceasefire. These are considered pro Palestine (or even pro Hamas) ideas by Israel and many pro Israel people.

I didn’t cherry pick those studies. The first one is literally the first one that comes up on Google and the second one is an aggregate of a lot of studies. You just didn’t read. No sources say what you claim. You just read it wrong and now you’re trying to defend your incorrect claim.

I’m not going to get deep into the misreporting with the aid because I know it won’t lead anywhere with you. There was a big scandal with COGAT (israel) claiming that the UN was underreporting the aid and then many aid orgs individually saying COGAT was exaggerating the aid allowed in. It’s complicated. I will say that the amount of aid let in does not disprove that northern Gaza faced a famine. Most of the trucks weren’t able to access northern Gaza. What is important here is that it was determined that hundreds of thousands of Gazans were dealing with famine.

Actually yes I do blame Israel for its own actions. Civilians aren’t doing anything morally wrong by staying in the north. Of course it’s risky for them, but that doesn’t just erase Israel’s responsibility. Like 15% of the population is in the north and many don’t feel like the south is safe either.

The Lancet is credible. Theyre deemed antisemitic because they don’t censor studies on Israel and Palestine. As far as I can tell the most “antisemitic” thing they’ve done is publish a letter written by two people that once supported a video made by David Duke. Thats not great, but also a far cry from discrediting the whole journal especially when it publishes actual peer reviewed research. Either way I didn’t say all of the sources were pro Israel. I said they’re historically credible and/or pro Israel.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

I can’t keep interacting, there’s clearly something wrong with you and you’re just looking for me to walk away so you can see this as an ego win.

I don’t want to fall back and insult you, despite how creepy you.

I don’t have the time to pull up every statistic why you’re wrong, when they’re clearly available.

Live in your echo chamber hell, and be done with it.

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mnmkdc@reddit

I mean yeah you lost as soon as you floundered on smotrich and denied the IPC report lol. Every comment since has just been you with a shovel hoping I wasn’t reading the sources I linked myself.

“I don’t want to fall back and insult you” is hilarious considering you spent most of your time trying to insult me and couldn’t even resist in that same sentence.

You had time. It takes less time to google a “what percentage of …” and click the first peer reviewed journal than it does to write paragraph after paragraph about what you think I’m like irl. You chose not to because the numbers don’t support you.

Yes I’m in an echo chamber and you sourced an Israeli blog with a compilation of tweets as evidence for your only relevant source the whole time. Truly the epitome of getting out of your bubble.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

I didn’t “flounder”, you said he tried to commit a terrorist act, but an extensive investigation found they had no evidence, and nobody he had communication with did either.

You then accused him of things, but had no relatable context or comparison to anyone else in the region.

You “mentioned” the IPC report, but it doesn’t say what you claim it said - and still has not come to fruition.

If I wanted to really ‘insult’ you, I could - acknowledging you’re a superficial creep, and your straw man arguments don’t constitute the level of authority, of execution you desire isn’t much an insult.

You just described why you’re constantly wrong

“ You had time. It takes less time to google a “what percentage of …” and click the first peer reviewed journal than it does to write paragraph after paragraph about what you think I’m like irl. You chose not to because the numbers don’t support you.”

That’s your exact problem: you picked one source, in two minutes - and claimed you were right.

The problem is, people who actually know something aren’t drawing on one random source.

I don’t care if you’re a Google scholar, the vast majority of literature says that you’re wrong.

“Sourced an Israeli blog”, holy shit kid - you still haven’t provided a counterpoint for what the article says, because you’re obviously wrong.

Do you have an explanation, for how

‘Non jacketed bullets fragment, tumble and would break bones. Also, unsure of why anyone would get a lateral head radiograph for a bullet to the head I guess unless it’s supposed to be post mortem. Also, for cases like this at least in US we would undoubtably have gross specimens with photos for clinical comparison and because why not. It doesn’t make any sense to take a frontal +/- lateral radiograph and not get anymore information. Very weird.

Additionally, if you’re going through the process of a post mortem radiograph why wouldn’t you also get a normal photo for documentation and comparison? I can go on and on. None of that story makes any sense.’? Of course not, because you’re a teenager who doesn’t have a stake in this conflict: you’re just an obnoxious, entitled, fake activist.

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mnmkdc@reddit

An “extensive investigation” lol. Look, I’ll just repeat what I said before: we both know what he was doing. You aren’t doing your argument favors by playing dumb. Him and his associates had 700 gallons of gasoline. That is many barrels of gasoline and not an amount people just have for normal purposes. Even ignoring his history with other extremism, it’s comically ignorant to claim he wasn’t going to do what he was suspected of. The police just released him once the anger died down a bit because they figured it was safe now.

What relatable context do you need for supporting price tag attacks? I’d LOVE to hear your answer on this. This is exactly the point I keep making to you. You make it very obvious that you’re uninformed because you keep doubling down on things that cannot be redeemed.

The IPC report says 495000 people are facing IPC phase 5.

You do really want to insult me. That’s why you can’t go a comment without doing it. It doesn’t bother me and just comes across as childish.

I didn’t just spend 2 minutes looking for sources. These aren’t new topics to me. I’m telling you how you could find actual sources to back yourself up with ease because they’re readily available. You just didn’t because you can’t.

I’ve sent like a dozen sources and made sure to include pro Israel sources and peer reviews studies. The Lancet study you took offense to was an aggregate of a lot of peer reviewed studies. I used it specifically so you couldn’t reasonably claim I was cherry picking a source.

Exactly. People who actually know about this arent picking one random source. You used one cherry picked non credible source. I used many credible and peer reviewed sources.

If the literature says I’m wrong then source it. I’ve been saying this for a while. For some mysterious reason you haven’t done so…

I haven’t refuted it because the source doesn’t have anything. It’s a compilation of tweets. Those tweets are claims and not even claims made by reputable sources.

The X-rays aren’t the only information. They’re just evidence. According to theguardian they were actually able to identify Israeli ammunition. Actual doctors (mostly foreign, not Palestinian doctors), claimed that the bullet wounds and accounts from witnesses is they were shot by idf.

And yes, this isn’t the US. This is a place with overloaded hospitals with very restricted access to medical equipment currently.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-palestinian-children-killed-idf-israel-war

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/israelopt-un-experts-appalled-reported-human-rights-violations-against

Check out those links this time. Theres actual expert accounts and photos and videos. Or better yet find a real source. It’s comical for you to claim I cherry picked sources when that is the only source you’ve given (outside of irrelevant cherry picked obesity stuff you misquoted).

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

“You defend Neo Nazis” do you have a single example of this?

Haaretz is considered an “extremists” publication, widely hated by most Israelis and westerners.

“Obsess about IQ”, a single post under a front page recommendation is hardly an “obsession”, but considering the massive amount of data we have showing correlations between IQ and general outcome: conversations like this, are predictable.

“You get circles run around you” this is the first time, that I’ve ever given up on trying to argue with someone.

You are a bottom of the barrel tier poster: it’s clear you will never concede any loss. The amount of effort it would take to explain, or portray and understand you don’t have would be impossible.

You’re hyper fixating, and projection all types of extremes or ideological absolutes.

You’re one of the most clearly narcissistic posters I’ve seen yet, despite being incredibly superficial.

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mnmkdc@reddit

“You defend Neo Nazis” do you have a single example of this?

You know what, I misread the comment I was referencing. You make a lot of nazi like comments undoubtedly, but you don't seem to defend neo nazis. I was wrong about that.

Haaretz is considered an “extremists” publication, widely hated by most Israelis and westerners.

Its just left wing and often critical of Israel especially in relation to Israel-Palestine. Its not extremist at all and its not even really anti-zionist.

“Obsess about IQ”, a single post under a front page recommendation is hardly an “obsession”, but considering the massive amount of data we have showing correlations between IQ and general outcome: conversations like this, are predictable.

No like you tell like half the people you argue with that they have low IQ. I guess your conversations are predictable, but that's your own words, not mine.

“You get circles run around you” this is the first time, that I’ve ever given up on trying to argue with someone.

I mean its obvious that you think you're coming out on top, but you respond to scientific studies with tweets, reddit posts, and ad hominems.

You are a bottom of the barrel tier poster: it’s clear you will never concede any loss. The amount of effort it would take to explain, or portray and understand you don’t have would be impossible.

I admit I'm wrong on here all the time. You keep saying you don't have the time, but you keep writing these comments.

You’re hyper fixating, and projection all types of extremes or ideological absolutes.

What? If this is about the Smotrich thing, I just use that because it forces people to either acknowledge Israel's extremist problem or shows that they're unwilling to confront hard truths. You fell into the second category.

You’re one of the most clearly narcissistic posters I’ve seen yet, despite being incredibly superficial.

You know you'd be much more convincing in arguments if you didn't obsess over psychoanalyzing the people you talk to. The fact of the matter is you're not going to be able to guess what people are like in real life besides what they present online. Your image you've made of me isn't right no matter how much you insist you know me. It isn't going to upset me no matter how much you try. I'm just telling you this because you're wasting your own time and mine by obsessing over trying to figure me out.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

Ok, so now they’re “Nazi like comments”, do you have any example of these?

Hareetz is considered a “extremist” publication in Israel, by Israelis and yes - it is anti-Zionist. They’re the most frequently cited press source for antisemites, actual Neo Nazi characters etc. It’s considered “far left”, not “left”.

“Half the people”, that’s more than an exaggeration considering it’s probably been mentioned in -1% of my posts.

“Reply to scientific studies…” do you have an example of any of these behaviors?

I’m replying to you simply because I know your personality type, and it takes me a few seconds to write these posts in between other things.

No, it shows you’re incredibly gullible - and the level of stupidity you’re willing to project on to other people. Whether you like the guy or not, the idea that Israel would have this extremist psychopath because that’s just ‘what they’re about’: is both one of the funniest, and genuinely terrifying conclusions I’ve seen someone attempt to argue in (what they assume is) good faith.

Confirming your past behaviors as naive, narcissistic, or mildly sociopathic in nature by saying “you don’t know me” - when everyone of your behaviors matches these interactions in some capacity, and your deflections match clinical observations in these personality types isn’t a good look.

Im not “obsessing over trying to figure you out”, you’re arguing very basic things that tend to be defined by very specific pathology.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

I just wanted to say, since we’ve been ‘talking’ for a long time - is that the symptoms of your behavior are fairly normal for young people (especially in this generation).

You have just as much potential to change, know, and succeed as much as anyone else though there may be differences: everyone has some capacity, or chance at accessing that innate human value, and worth.

I hope that at some point you recognize that your vision of the world is not ‘balanced’, nuanced, or fair, and that you are essentially be played for a fool: without pulling you into an opposing extreme, or radicalizing you toward another ideology.

Life is particularly confusing, and you (like everyone else) deserve the chance to fight in this world for what you know, and believe; despite the infinite complications of freedom, and the coercive nature of ideological conditioning.

Sites, environments, and echo chambers like this produces a type of cognitive dissonance, and general anti social sectarianism that is not sustainable in the real world, and doesn’t stop the frustrating nature of consequential interactions between systems, people, and organized (no matter how loosely) ideological bodies of all types.

I’m not trying to talk down to you, and I realize - if I was going to reply at all, I should have put more effort into this.

I’ve been interacting over these concepts for the last year, and I don’t have a particular interest in social media.

At this point, I’m both numb and broken down to the sociopathy rampant within both the young, and the old.

I’m not a perfect person, even though I can witness the separation of ideal, and genuine interactions from the spit between moral absolutism, and moral certainty.

It’s hard for everyone, some more than others, but everyone suffers, and everyone suffers in their own mind.

The truth, is concept thats unkind to everyone. There is a shadow of human nature cast over reality, and we project a mandate from heaven on to both natural disaster, and G-d himself.

It’s very tiring, and sometimes life feels like an endless series battles - even when there’s nobody left to fight.

I often give people a greater degree of credibility, or sense of character than they portray; which always ends up hurting me, as they are exposed as fallible human beings.

The opposite is to become completely cynical, and I just can’t do that; it’s the essence of evil, even though it contains the outline of truth.

You are also a human being, and you will be fine in the end; hopefully it involves a continuation of insight, seeking the truth, and developing as a person.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

I’m guess you actually are a bot, or just a malignant narcissist with some degree of sociopathic tendencies.

Anything I say, you repeat the complete opposite with the same phraseology.

The X-rays are perfect example of this: it doesn’t matter how obvious something (actually) is, you will just claim the complete opposite.

It’s the Dunning Kruger effect, your overconfidence is higher than your intelligence: you’re unable to tell people can see clearly, that you’re wrong.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

This is going to be my last post.

I know you believe, in your tiny echo chamber - that you’re on “the right side of history”. You’re essentially aligning with all the same values, you claim to stand against. There’s no enough information, in your general studies college courses (or the average 98 IQ anti social with a face full of metal) to cover the authority, even in collectivity; that you’re trying to project.

I’ve argued with thousands of people like you in my life, and I wish I could give you the time of day for a more structured post - but in all honesty, it’s not worth it.

I believe you’re antisocial, and probably average IQ; based on the data we have collectively at this point, for self serving behavior masked as altruism.

I’m sure you really believe that you’re a good person, but that’s not my problem.

There’s is no peace with Islamists, they never wanted peace, and they ever will.

They manipulate people like you, because you’re more confident then you are intelligent (which I genuinely hope I’m wrong about, this isn’t personal).

Your blind willingness to agree, or disagree with something based on vague qualifiers is never going to end with you being correct.

It’s going to end up with you being a member of a belligerent mob (in the name of peace), and nothing more.

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mnmkdc@reddit

This is so hilarious that you called me a narcissist now. You're so obsessed with trying to prove you're smart and you're just making yourself sound like a teenager in the process.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

This is a projection, and I don’t care if you see me as “smart”, because life doesn’t revolve around what faceless adolescences think in a comment section.

https://honestreporting.com/new-york-times-guest-essay-shredded-online-after-claiming-idf-targets-gazan-children/

There is no “appearing intelligent” on the internet, this is mostly an appeal that people who are trapped in echo chambers agree with.

I’m not even sure why I’m still interacting with you, mostly because it will increase the chance that - at some point - when you’re forced to realize you were wrong, this might be one of the things you reflect on, that a person, barely attempting to interact in full sentences: told you that you were wrong.

Your over confidence, is going to feel very silly at some point.

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mnmkdc@reddit

This is a projection, and I don’t care if you see me as “smart”, because life doesn’t revolve around what faceless adolescences think in a comment section.

Then maybe stop writing me poems about how much smarter you think you are. You've been obsessed with trying to psychoanalyze me and you aren't even close with your attempts.

https://honestreporting.com/new-york-times-guest-essay-shredded-online-after-claiming-idf-targets-gazan-children/

Your source is self described as defending Israel against media bias. That's worse than if I sent you Al Jazeera for proof. Reliable sources have been posting that story for months.

There is no “appearing intelligent” on the internet, this is mostly an appeal that people who are trapped in echo chambers agree with.

Great, then stop bringing up intelligence.

I’m not even sure why I’m still interacting with you, mostly because it will increase the chance that - at some point - when you’re forced to realize you were wrong, this might be one of the things you reflect on, that a person, barely attempting to interact in full sentences: told you that you were wrong.

Idk, maybe just trying to dig yourself out of the hole you dug. I said from the start, all of you guys melt down when confronted with Smotrich and Gvir. You did the same thing. You refuse to actually create a response to it and instead just deny actual objective points.

Your over confidence, is going to feel very silly at some point.

Yes, my over confidence. Definitely not the confidence of the guy who read the IPC report and said he knew better. Definitely not the confidence of the guy who read that Smotrich was arrested with 700 gallons of gasoline and said "no proof."

I'm not over confident at all. You're just making dumb points and are unwilling to learn. I listened to people there. I'm not claiming to be some super expert on this. I just know more than most because I didn't go out looking to validate my existing beliefs on hyper-biased media like you did.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

I don’t think you know what a “poem” is
Your psychology is very clear, just because you have low self awareness (or high self affirmation), doesn’t mean others aren’t aware of you.
Ok, so you have no counterpoint to what the article says. Does the source change ballistics works when relating to damaging, a human target? No. Does it change the nature of the organizations who put forward this information (CAIR etc)? No.
Reliable sources haven’t been “posting that story for months”, they’ve been posting the same story from the same sources - which has been completely disproven.
Then start presenting intellectual discussion
Childish Narcissism
More childish Narcissism

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mnmkdc@reddit

Or, hear me out, I’m making a joke about you wrote 10 paragraphs with 2 sentences per stanza.
I’m know you think it is. As long as you can convince yourself I’m some antisocial angry teenager you don’t have to come to terms with the fact that you lost an argument.
The source is a biased compilation of tweets. I can go find a twitter comment that says the opposite if you want. Find a real source and come back. Should be easy if the claim is true.
What does this mean? Nyt isn’t the first reliable source to write an article about it and claim they’ve investigated.
When I gave primary sources you said I didn’t back up my argument.
At least write me another poem. You’re getting lazy now.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

I’m writing it this way, because most people have poor reading comprehension, and it makes it easier to understand.
We’re not even having a real argument, you’re saying something, and I’m saying “you’re wrong”. I have to argue actual people, who’s reference matters. You’re proving my point, about your personality type right here - you see this as a victory, because you don’t know what it’s like to actually win (in this context). You just believe you’re right.
It’s not a “biased series of tweets”, literally everyone with medical experience is talking about how this paper was fake (radiologists, nurses, GP’s, Surgeons, detectives etc). Most people aren’t sitting around on Twitter, with nothing to do.
I’m not sure what you mean by this.
You’ve never given “primary sources”. Referencing an article, that references an article down to a stream of 2x articles which are telephoning vague statements - is not a “primary source”.
Someday you’re going to experience the consequences of your behavior, and that will be unfortunate.

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mnmkdc@reddit

It was a bunch of paragraphs about how you believe I am in real life. No one other than me is going to read the whole thing.
Ok.
It’s just a series of tweets by an Israeli journalist for ynet and a bunch of random people. Back it up with a real source.
You discounted the story based on some tweets you found. I’m saying those tweets shouldn’t be more credible to you than other historically trustworthy sources who have claimed to fact check it in the past. You picking to believe what you did just proves you’re cherry picking to fit your beliefs.
I gave the actual report where the IPC said hundreds of thousands were experiencing famine directly. Your defense was basically “nuh uh” and then you misquoted obesity stats from before the war that you thought disproved it.
I hope so. It might be unfortunate for you that people are freer, but I personally think that’ll be a good thing. I’m glad you made a kind sentiment to end your comment though.

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ScaryShadowx@reddit

It's so amusing to see zionists complaining about "theocratic Islamic states" when they are completely advocating for and supportive of an apartheid Jewish one with the explicit goal when Jewish citizens have more rights and recognition than all others.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

Except there’s no evidence of it being an “apartheid” state. It’s a “Jewish state”, in the sense that it’s a nationally designated home for the Jewish people, which is called a nation state: almost a hundred percent of countries are “nation states”.

Jewish citizens don’t have “more rights and recognition than all others”, but you don’t care if that’s true or not.

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ScaryShadowx@reddit

Jewish citizens don’t have “more rights and recognition than all others”, but you don’t care if that’s true or not.

Basic Law: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People

1C. The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.

6B. The state shall act within the Diaspora to strengthen the affinity between the state and members of the Jewish people.

6C. The state shall act to preserve the cultural, historical, and religious heritage of the Jewish people among Jews in the Diaspora.

7A. The state views the development of Jewish settlement as a national value and will act to encourage and promote its establishment and consolidation.

It's written in their Basic Law, the closest constitutional equivalent, that Israel is a special place for Jewish people and all others are second-class citizens. The wording is not "Israeli people", it is explicitly "Jewish peop

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

That’s not what an apartheid is, you’re literally highlight statements that define what a nation state is.

Being a Jewish nation state, and having citizens who are non Jewish with full rights and value are two separate concepts: they’re compatible with little effort.

This reasoning is true of literally every nation state - including right to return.

If your parents, or grand parents are European / Asian, it’s very easy in most countries to get citizenship.

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ScaryShadowx@reddit

Nation states are based on citizenship. The law doesn't say "the right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the "Israeli people.", it specifically excludes non-Jewish Israeli citizens from having the same rights and recognition, ie an apartheid state.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

I don’t think you understand what that phrase means.

It means that other ethnic groups can self proclaim a separate governing state body, within Israel.

That’s what that means, unarguably on a technical level.

The American parallel isn’t a good example, because the US is a collectivist federal constitutionalist republic with semi democratic representative electoral process: not a “nation state for Christians”.

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ScaryShadowx@reddit

Yes, America is not a nation state for Christians, so it is not an apartheid state. If it did have that written in its constitution, it would be considered apartheid. Now your getting it!

You're trying to argue on 'a technical level' when on a literal level there is a basic law on the books that grant Jewish Israelis more rights and recognition than their Arab/Muslim/Christian counterparts.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

America being a nation state for Christians (assuming this made sense, because it doesn’t) wouldn’t make it an apartheid: that’s not what an apartheid state is.

Again, you’re misunderstanding how Israel works on a constitutional level.

It’s a Nation state that established a joke for Jews, not an ethnostate where non Jews can’t enter or have rights.

This is why some of the most powerful people in the country (businessmen, Supreme Court etc) are non Jews.

Can you name what basic law this is?

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ScaryShadowx@reddit

not an ethnostate where non Jews can’t enter or have rights.

Neither was apartheid South Africa. Black people could still enter and still had rights in apartheid South Africa - just less rights than their white counterparts, just like in Israel with Jews and non-Jews.

Can you name what “basic law” this is, that makes Israel an apartheid state?

You do know what a Basic Law is right? You are arguing about the technical meaning of the law and don't even recognize the significance of a Basic Law is Israel?

The one I linked to above which clearly states Jewish people have more rights and recognition than their non-Jewish counterparts?

1C. The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.

Right to self determination in Israel is for the Jewish people not Israeli citizens. This is a very radical admission of the difference in rights. You can deny it all you want, but it's written right there in their constitutional equivalent saying that Jewish people have more recognition in the state of Israel than non-Jewish people.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

I get what you’re saying, but non Jews don’t have less rights - that why you can’t point to any legislation, or policy that says this.

No, I’m saying can you name any basic law that proves, or highlights your point.

Again, 1C is not about Jews having more rights - it’s about non Jews being unable to declare a separate state. Basically a guy can’t move from Italy, and from Indian and declare part of Israel a Santal government.

I don’t know why you’re refusing to accept what that means, and how you’re attempting to leverage that as “differences in rights”.

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ScaryShadowx@reddit

that why you can’t point to any legislation, or policy that says this.

I've literally quoted the exact law that grants Jewish residents of Israel more rights... It literally and explicitly states Jewish people are the only ones with the right to self-determination.

Again, 1C is not about Jews having more rights - it’s about non Jews being unable to declare a separate state.

But Jewish people can? Once again, this is a right that is explicitly granted to Jewish residents of Israel, the right to self-determination, which is not granted to other ethnic and religious groups, despite their connection to the country and the land. This is an explicit example of apartheid. You can dress it up as much as you want in terms of why it exists, or why Jewish Israelis need more rights, but every country that has practiced a form of apartheid, be it South Africa or "separate but equal" America all used the same justification.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

No, you didn’t “quote the law”, because we’ve just covered you didn’t know what that means.

“But Jewish people can”

Are you a listening? Do you know how to read?

Try going to England, and proclaiming a new nation within its borders.

Try going to Japan, and proclaiming a new nation within its borders.

Try going to Italy, and proclaiming a new nation within its borders.

Try going to Norway, and proclaiming a new nation within its borders.

Try going to Canada, and proclaiming a new nation within its borders.

It’s not saying “Jewish people can do this”, it’s saying “This is a country that will be known as a national home for the Jews”, because Israel is the Jewish nation state.

And where is it that you think you should begin criticism?

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

No, I’m saying you don’t “feel morally pained” at all. We see this in psychological data all the time, it’s essentially a type of voyeurism.

That’s why any structural comments get down voted on Reddit; this entire site is based on low tier, pseudo intellectual speculation.

It’s for people who are interested, in the modern commodification of intellectualism, and it’s contemporary association with moral absolutism, moral authority, and complex civil developments (which exist in a long chain, since the start of modern anatomical humans).

The “density” of reports, are coming from organizations funded by people who fund terrorist groups, and around 2/3s of the worlds oil supply.

You’re essentially pivoting calculable behaviors, off of your own susceptible to propaganda (which you don’t recognize, and believe you’re rebelling against).

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MightFail_Tal@reddit

Wow thank you for shining your intellectual light on this shallow place. Such backing for one’s views has never been seen before!!

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Teasturbed@reddit

What they mean is their bots haven't been able to gain much traction in AT like they manage to in other political subs, and that clearly means .. everyone is shallow... something something structual comments... Amazing.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

Or it means that people who couldn’t pass remedial math classes, have congregated in an ironically titled sub - to pretend they aren’t being crushed under their anti social tendencies, and actually had some value to the world when discussing complex political dynamics.

“Children being systemically murdered” ie the lowest civilian causality rate of any urban war on this scale, and almost nine times bellow floor.

What you’re really saying is “statistical floor for death by population metric”, but you’re too stupid to figure out that you don’t understand how the world operates.

That’s why subs like this say things like “war statistics are fake” - some of the people here are antisemitic, but some of you are just knuckle dragging mouth breathers.

[-]

rowida_00@reddit

.

the lowest civilian causality rate of any urban war on this scale, and almost nine times bellow floor.

Can you substantiate this claim with factual evidence? Otherwise everything else you’ve said is of no relevance to practically anything because your entire argument is centred around this erroneous premise.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

The UN defines urban warfare as a 1 - 9 ratio, this is pretty easy to find.

The death rate comes from Hamas putting forward ceiling estimates from insular media public and, which is why they keep getting rounded down.

“Factual and credible evidence” in your view doesn’t exist. You’re essentially asking to prove a counter, to an unproven claim.

What’s happening at this point?

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rowida_00@reddit

It’s a yes or no question. But I’m guessing the answer is a no given the lack of a shred of evidence provided. You’re the one who made the claim that it’s the lowest civilian causality rate in urban warfare and the burden of proof lies on you! That’s usually how it works. When you make an assertion, people typically would expect you to make an effort to corroborate that claim. I guess the entire premise of your argument gravitates towards misplaced convictions and conjectures. I’ll try to contain my amazement.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

It’s not a “yes or no” question, it’s a question where know your position has no answer, and you’re projecting that on to an opposing counter to reposition guilt.

If the question is that “it’s the lowest civilian causality rate of any urban warfare at this scale”, and the burden is on me - you’re asking me to compile data on all urban wars and present it to you: which is an unrealistic task, and I’m assuming to some degree you know this.

It’s also not “on me”, because it’s public information what the urban warfare rate is (going by the UN), and the numbers put forward by Israel (which include Hamas’s death numbers, claimed military size, and total collapse of military force). What you’re really saying at that point is “I’m making you response for a {claim} (which now serves the purpose of a opponent, combatant), and even though this information already exists: it’s on you to prove you’re not responsible (this is usually a gamble for asserting hierarchy)”.

That’s neither “misplaced convictions” (what a terribly ironic thing to say), or “conjecture”.

[-]

rowida_00@reddit

Somehow you’re struggling to comprehend that you made a conjecture that you’re failing abysmally at comprehending. Your statement wasn’t speculative. No, you’ve unequivocally asserted that this is the lowest civilian causality rate is any urban warfare. As if you’ve got the factual evidence to support that claim but you clearly don’t. Hence why you’re going in circle feebly attempting to deflect from the obvious. You presented no verifiable data that so much as insinuates this assertion;

the lowest civilian causality rate of any urban war on this scale, and almost nine times bellow floor.

So will you concede and spare us this asininity or will you double down on propagating your surmises?

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

This comment makes no sense; “structured comments” is a valid observation.

Notice how nobody has a counterpoint, that’s because they don’t actually have a reference outside of group think.

The whole world has access to the internet now, including the majority of countries with 80-85 average IQ.

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ScaryShadowx@reddit

Ok, so I take it you are supportive of us removing any discussion of the personal stories from the Holocaust and the individual suffering that the victims suffered?

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

6 Million Jews, plus 4 Million Gypsies and soldiers who were actually systemically murdered, versus 20,000 militants, a few thousand plain clothes militants, and people who unfortunately represent the idea that there is always a civilian causality floor, no matter how low.

Yes, these things are exactly the same; ten million people, and a total of a typical small scale war.

Again, the animosity people have (or at least lack of information) is insane, but what do you care?

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ScaryShadowx@reddit

Right got it, only people you want to empathize with deserve to be treated as human. Telling that you are ignoring all the children that have been killed, and all those specifically targeted as reported by various international medical organizations.

Kind of telling that you don't think Palestinian people are deserving of having their suffering broadcast or their stories hold and have dehumanized them to such an extend that the Nazis did to the Jews, then are acting indignant towards the suggestion that the suffering of the Jewish people receive the same treatment. Without a second thought, you have dismissed all the suffering documented as "a few thousand plain clothes militants", but then again, Zionists have purposely dehumanized the Palestinian people to such an extent that now children are seen as "plain clothes militants".

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

There’s a difference between

Wanting to empathize with others
Seeing empathy as a desirable state on the mind of others
Understanding the value of being perceived as empathetic by others under a contemporary culture view
Seeing empathy as a desirable stated, perceived by others as a means to displace personal antisocial tendencies
Seeing empathy is deserving ideological reward
Understanding the value of being perceived as empathetic by others, and the compounded effect of contemporary cultural, and ideological reward: that displaces the view of your own antisocial behavior.

Most of people here, and in like minded echo chambers fall into any number of these categories, rarely (almost never) as a genuine state of empathy,

It’s a type of performative, false enlightenment - it’s how the ego self affirms a just position to reward seeking behavior: despite everyone else’s claims being the same, or similar.

That’s why the second half of your position is a milk toast attempt as projecting a state of conceptual desirability, in terms of ‘displaying, or broadcasting the suffering of others’.

The Nazi parallels are heavy handed attempts at rewriting history: where the Arab forces, and Palestinians have failed to genocide the Jews again, and again.

Now In your mind they’re “innocent victims”, being dehumanized.

This viewpoint, ironically enough - dehumanizes them further. It’s so irrational, that you’re forcing people to see Palestinians as ultimate enemies of common sense, or western sensibility. Though they might not be strictly compatible, you’re sentencing them to ideological death in an intellectual sense.

The way you easily conflate this with Nazis is one part ignorance, and one part antisocial tendency in itself.

Part of your stance is bad reading compression, where phrases like “plain clothes militants” (and experience documented for decades), is a substitute for actual citizens: not only confirming your beliefs, but projecting that self affirmation on to people who argue against your ideological evaluation.

You then elevate this to

“Zionists (Jews) have now purposefully (assertion of evil) dehumanized (affirmation of evil) them to the point where children (vulnerable group) are seen as ‘plain clothes militants’ (justification for evil, affirmation of your own good)”.

Every post you making, is dripping with anti social neurotic pathology.

You don’t understand this, by nature of believing it; how do we move forward?

Do you expect every person to write a post for you like this?

No, you expect them to leave: affirming your world view, and greatness

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Soggy_Ocelot2@reddit

Yeah, this is teh issue with this kind of messaging ragarding Gaza and Pelistinans in general. Of course, their suffering is tragic and I wouldn't wish it on anyone and in this sense it's important to pulish and take action, but the close ups of dead bodies and the countless stories of assumedly creditable sources like doctors, aid workers and more just lend themselves for anti-Israel framing. Onece people's heartstrings are jerked just right they're much more likely to believe any kind of framing that can give them a sense of restored order in their mental world, and so these images of death and destruction are as important, as they are just perfect for Hamas, etc., to attach their lies to and gain support for yet more violence.

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Teasturbed@reddit

This is such an ironic statement, considering how much the Western world had swallowed propaganda regarding Israel for decades. But no, everyone! Please believe the war industry execs and career politicians and intelligence agencies' well crafted propganada, not the first hand accounts of healthcare workers! Otherwise, you're being brainwashed.

Pathetic attempt at diversion from genocid2.

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Soggy_Ocelot2@reddit

There's no diversion attempt here because there is no genocide there. If there was I would be just at your side in this. But Israel's fight is clearly intended to avoid any future threats like that of Oct 7 to cause their people the same suffering. Of course it is some very fierce firghting in an densely populated area, so it is all that more destructive and injurous to the Gaza people. And in this sense Israel would do well to avoid acting too careless, this certainly has to be acknowledged. But beyond this it's also clear how insidious Hamas, Hesbollah and co. are using anything they can spin into any disadvantage against Israel to hurt it, be it down there in the fight or internationally in "the fight for our minds". Thats what I'm trying to point at.

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blubs_will_rule@reddit

https://v.redd.it/uxfz1cackwwb1

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

Yes, this is literally how every country in the world operates.

“How fast they managed to spread lies” = “a single story that was redacted, and reposted en mass”.

Except, babies were killed. It just wasn’t based around a poorly written article.

The difference is, the Israeli government was responsible for that, but Al Jazera, TrT, Middle East Eye etc are all government run operations.

Notice how there’s no reconciliation of parallel interactions in propagated media. You don’t actually care about the concept, just that you’ve weighed singular instances from Israel as the same: to billions of dollars of MENA propaganda, which has been posted 24/7 for nearly a year straight.

Countries like Korea don’t have bot posting online, and so they don’t agree with conflict.

It’s brainwashing, and nothing more.

[-]

TendieRetard@reddit (OP)

According_Elk_8383•4m ago• Multinational

This is exactly why they post this videos online: you’re basically watching snuff films, and connecting “emotionally” by projecting in-group associations (your kids, family, friends) on to unrelated strangers.

Then it goes through local cultural, and ideological reasoning.

This is why people don’t care about statistics, or floor rates (every other MENA war has higher rates of this behavior), overlap (how many of these doctors are talking about the same cases), or the chance people are lying (they see Israel as an ultimate enemy, and every contemporary study we have shows in this context there is significant reason to believe they are lying, especially if they provide no evidence - and almost all deaths are from bombs, not gun fire) etc.

It’s not worth arguing about, because these issues are based on pathology and groups think.

Then they are based on internal, and external perceived reward. After that, they are based on assumed pathology based moral absolutism and self affirmation (I’m very good, you’re very bad: anything I’ve ever done is irrelevant, compared to you).

It’s just going to keep going on because, what’s going to stop it?

You lack reading comprehension.

In no way did I blame “JEWS” as a whole for anything nor did I even mention it; you did because you seek to conflate the actions of your genocidal ethnostate with all Jews.

ISRAEL is defenitionally an ethnostate, one labeled as an apartheid by amnesty international, and they’ve killed 40,000 people + in the last year alone. I’m sorry, but facts don’t care about your feelings.

Also no, facts aren’t AnTiSeMeTiC, you’re just projecting big dawg.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

Oh yeah, the whole “I’m not blaming Jews as a whole - just 98% of them”.

I know, that’s the line Islamic countries use to torment, kill, or eject all their Jews.

It’s not how to understand what you think, it’s just childlike reasoning because you have underdeveloped mechanical intelligence.

“40,000 people”, as In around 20,000 clothed militants, and 20,000 citizens including plain clothes militants (which is illegal).

“Amnesty International” is not a legitimate organization, just look at their operation history.

These seemingly legitimate organizations get taken over by oil barons, and then this happens.

“Facts don’t care about your feelings”, you’re right - which is why your 1400 year old temper tantrums seem inane to outside observers.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

You’ve destroyed your image globally = we’re trying to make people think youre worse than us.

Yeah, youre right - pouring billions of oil money into torturing Jews is normal behavior, and people totally don’t believe you countries are backward wastelands of human garbage.

[-]

TendieRetard@reddit (OP)

mofo Modi making it rain w/that piss poor hustle.

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According_Elk_8383@reddit

You’re greasy as hell, Tendie.

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_-icy-_@reddit

I’m confused. So you think all these doctors are lying? You’re just making generic statements to try and make this seem like it doesn’t happen, when there is countless evidence for it (unfortunately).

It’s fucking gross to see Zionists attempt to defend this shit. It’s very similar to holocaust denying arguments.

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OptimisticRealist__@reddit

Just gonna put this out there, that none of these doctors knows who inflicted these gunshot wounds. Im not saying it was one or the other, im saying i dont trust either the IDF nor Hamas with a Fork, let alone with adhering to the rules of engagement.

If it is the IDF, fuck them.

If it is Hamas to create outrage in the west, fuck them.

If it is both, fuck them both.

At the end of the day it is a war and war always, always means civilian casualties, destruction and pain - generational trauma. In many ways the people in Palestine are like the gauls at the siege of Alesia, who were forced out of the town by the gaul soldiers but werent taken in by the besieging romans, so they slowly starved to death in no mans land.

The people in Palestine are the same: stuck between a terrorist organisation who happily risks civilian casualties for their propaganda purposes and the isrseli army who, while having a casus belli, cant be trusted to respond in measure.

At the end of the day its a human tragedy that imo is maybe beyond solving. At the same time i strongly, strongly caution people to stop their binary, black/white thinking - too many people, esp college kids, think that everything is a oppressor v oppressed dynamic and subsequently is a clear good v evil situation, when reality is much more complex and nuanced, which unfortunately especially in the west is way too often forgotten when it comes to this conflict.

[-]

Leather-Ad-7799@reddit

We know who’s shooting the press, children, and others with snipers, and it’s not the guys shooting RPGs in flip flops.

Obfuscate, deflect, project. The trifecta of trying to cover up for the war crimes of an ethnostate

[-]

Siman421@reddit

https://x.com/CherylWroteIt/status/1844907195953185093
fabricated photos

https://x.com/EFischberger/status/1845152107650838913

proof the entire story is probably fabricated,

are you sure?

i find it more likely the ones who keep hostages are the ones lying about what happens to civilians.

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Leather-Ad-7799@reddit

I find the ones saying “bring them home” then doing everything they can to kill and prevent their hostages from coming home to their families to be liars only trying to claim more territory.

I feel for the families of the hostages; it must suck to know your own government killed hostages by Apache helicopter on Oct7th and has done everything in their power since to kill any chance of them being returned home safely (if not killing them directly, a la 3 white flag waving hostages)

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Siman421@reddit

So you don't find the ones who took them, then claimed they didn't attack civilian targets not liars? The ones who hit their own hospital, killed 100, and then claimed Israel did and killed 500? The ones who have been lying about starvation in Gaza despite no starvation occurring. The ones who repeatedly use schools to shoot rockets at Israel then claim they don't. The ones who killed 6 subjects with point blank shots because they knew the idf was on the way to rescue them?

The pache helicopter thing is just another hoax that was already proven false.

Wow, it is easy to fool the west. Do some fucking research.

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Leather-Ad-7799@reddit

Ok let’s go through the hasbara piece by piece.

1) you’ve called them terrorists already so the point about them stealing hostages 👍🏼

2) those ones who hit their own hospital? What about the 30 OTHER hospitals that Israel has hit since? deafening silence

destroying hospitals: a Zionist hobby

3) no starvation in Gaza? Ok so clearly you know something that the US agencies who have said that Israel is intentionally withholding aid and using STARVATION as a weapon of war don’t; or you’re just lying 🤥

starvation, but again Zionists lie

4) the IDF was on the way to rescue which hostages? The 6 dead ones in a tunnel? Just like the 4 rescued (3 killed if I recall correctly) and 100s of civilians shot and killed using the “AID” pier and hiding in aid trucks? Idk, you’re fighting terrorists you tell me would they just surrender them and be shot? Also didn’t Israel kill three white flag waving hostages? Bad track record there.

(Btw the most number of hostages released happened during, you guess it, a ceasefire 🫣)

5) actually no, it’s been proven true, what’s disputed is how many Israelis were killed by the Apache helicopters; but again I’d never expect a Zionist to tell the truth.

Hannibal directived

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Siman421@reddit

Every hospital hit has been used by Hamas, evident by the time they went I to one and arrested 500 confirmed Hamas members.

It's the UN, aka UNRWA, reporting no food, the ones who keep working with Hamas + footage of Hamas stealing aid trucks has been seen already.

About your fourth point Israel has rescued more hostages than they have killed (do you forget the multiple saved without a deal) and you are excusing Hamas killing them point blank my man, that's a bad look on you

The Hannibal directive has been inactive for years. You have literally fallen into propaganda so hard you think Israel , the ones who spend millions defending their own citizens, would do the exact opposite .

You went from not providing proof to showing different things because that's what you people do, deflect.

I'm not surprised you're this unaware coming from this sub.

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Leather-Ad-7799@reddit

No sources for any of your lies lol.

500 confirmed Hamas captured? LOOOOOL Israel would have posted that and it would be widely reported

I gave you sources on the reporting of food shortages; it’s US agencies reporting that. Another Zionist lie lol

I provide sources , you talk out of your ass 🤥

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Siman421@reddit

https://www.inss.org.il/publication/un-hunger-reports/

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-ends-shifa-hospital-raid-after-arresting-or-killing-hundreds-of-terror-operatives/

guess looking things up online isnt your strong suite, but sure, let me be your google since you dont have the capacity to use it yourself.

[-]

Leather-Ad-7799@reddit

Times of Israel and INSS 🤥

Definitely not propaganda outlets

Didn’t the times of Israel post something about how lebanon is part of greater Israel and delete it? Definitely a reliable news source 🫣

[-]

Siman421@reddit

Didn’t the times of Israel post something about how lebanon is part of greater Israel and delete it? Definitely a reliable news source 🫣 -

using your playbook here, source?

and heres are some more sources

https://www.ipcinfo.org/ipcinfo-website/alerts-archive/issue-97/en/

dont go telling me the ipc is biased

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/01/middleeast/israel-idf-withdraws-al-shifa-hospital-intl-hnk/index.html

i direct your attention in the cnn article to this quote - IDF spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari said 900 suspected militants had been detained during its two-week operation. More than 500 of these had been identified as members of Hamas or Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ), Hagari said Monday, adding some of those detained are “commanders and significant people.”

i used this source as its the only non israeli (or ones you would call biased) that actually reported the arrests .

you know, you can also google - or are you incapable of searching?

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Leather-Ad-7799@reddit

Your source literally says famine is happening LOOOOOL

Ok so your sources are just IDF spokespeople

So listening to “khamas” bad, listening to IDF spokespeople= source 🤥

Yeah everything on Google has the same guy as a source, it’s almost like the IDF have killed all independent journalists and barred journalists from seeing what they’re doing to the gazans 😬.

My bad it was THE JERUSALEM POST that dropped the famous “is Lebanon part of Israel’s promised territory”; hard to keep the propaganda outfits straight when you got so many in Israel you know?

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Siman421@reddit

wow you clearly cant read

for one, they say famine is immenant - i.e. not happening yet.

2 - https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/famine-review-committee-review-famine-early-warning-systems-network-fews-net-ipc-compatible-analysis-northern-governorates-gaza-strip-conclusions-and-recommendations-may-2024 the full report itself can be downloaded here. read it

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Leather-Ad-7799@reddit

This you?

Israel blocking aid

another whistleblower

I mean the Zionists are the chief semantics warriors; they’ll argue it’s not a genocide because there are Palestinians left, it’s not starvation because FAMINE is “imminent” they’ll deny blocking aid (liars), they’ll deny settlers are illegal and terrorists, they’ll deny targeting civilians in refugee camps, they’ll cry and beg for sympathy for 1200 dead most of which were combatants but say 40,000 is KHAMAS numbers, all the while pretending to be VICTIMS 🤣.

Ps: even Hezbollah does a better job of targeting militants than “the most moral army”, yall got some soldiers and mess hall to go clean up get to it.

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Siman421@reddit

Nice. You've gone from asking for a source to deflecting away from it. That's my queue that your mental instability has peaked, and any further conversation will be meaningless. Enjoy propaganda land. P.s., no one, even, has argued that all 40k are Hamas. Hamas argues all 40k are civilian , when around 15-20k aren't , making it the least civilians to military casualties of any war ever, proving israel Is in fact, pretty good at hitting military personal. But as I said, enjoy propaganda land, sounds like a fun place.

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Leather-Ad-7799@reddit

Your source about imminent famine is from May of 2024; how many months ago was that when famine was “imminent”?

Ps: almost al ziobots will pivot to “40,000” are khamas numbers

20k is not a factual number of Hamas militants, the IDF are proven liars; see yesterdays drone attack and the reporting as “40+ Israelis hit” not military personnel lol.

You’re being spoonfed from the IDF spokespeople talking about “propaganda”. No one outside of Israel and it’s DADDY the USA believes a word out of a Zionists mouth, if you’re speaking, you’re lying.

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Siman421@reddit

i wont engage with someone as delusional as you, who thinks israelis think all 40k are hamas, that famine is happening in gaza, thats the idf lies more than hamas does, and that you think people dont believe israel.

enjoy propaganda land, it seems to have its grip on you.

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Leather-Ad-7799@reddit

You’re paid to post are you not? Every engagement is worth your time hasbara bot 🤣

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Siman421@reddit

EverYThIng i DonT AGreE wItH iS hASbaRa

typical.

id love to have a job posting on reddit, would make life easier.

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Leather-Ad-7799@reddit

You’re a world news shill lmfaooo.

Yall were dogging folks yesterday about how Hezbollah attacked civilians and there was no proof they hit a military base. The deleted comments at the top of the posts were PEAK hasbara 🤣

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Siman421@reddit

You can google the total number of civilians killed by each side, but since you only value Israeli life you will no doubt deny, ignore, and eventually be proud of killing as many Palestinians as possible.

Genocidal ethnostate have done this before, and you’re just following in their footsteps

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cookingandmusic@reddit

Hasbara is now

These are lies, blood libel! Antisemitic doctors!
It was KHAMAS! Their bullets did it. (Never with proof.)
Even if it wasn’t, they deserved it for not evacuating
It’s Hamas’ fault for starting the war and we have no responsibility or agency for our actions! We are only ever victims

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tkhrnn@reddit

Do you have proof that it's an IDF bullets that did it?
Why aren't you calling for Hamas to surrender? they started the war, you know that much.

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tinkertailormjollnir@reddit

Abuser/rapist logic detected!

You are responsible for your own actions, and the proportion of response.

And saying it wasn’t IDF bullets is modern Holocaust denial. Did the Jews just set themselves on fire?

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tkhrnn@reddit

Hahaha, sure buddy, you answer is to let the terrorists go free because they will use human shields. and I am the one using Abuser/Rapist logic. If I did, you would have probably understood.

What is proportional response? If you slap me, I don't get to kill you?

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tinkertailormjollnir@reddit

What is proportional response? If you slap me, I don't get to kill you?

Yeah, exactly. And you don't get to kill my family and neighbors and everyone around me to get to me. Or starve my whole neighborhood and blow up it's hospital and cut off its water because of proximity to me.

That's collective punishment, which I know you all love unless it happens to you. Sociopaths.

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tkhrnn@reddit

If you are a valid target I get to target you. If I conclude that the military necessity worth the harm to your family. I get to bomb your house. This is not a collective punishment, a collective punishment will be, If I target your family.

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tinkertailormjollnir@reddit

Ok, then 10/7 was a valid military attack because I say so

What dipshit logic

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tkhrnn@reddit

Oct 7 is evidence to targeting of civilians. Even the kidnapping of civilians was part of the plan. You can't fathom the difference between targeting and killing. Killing civilians isn't illegal. Targeting is.

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tinkertailormjollnir@reddit

Did you know 1200 people were killed Oct 7th?

Did you know 10,000 have been taken hostage by Israel many in indefinite detention without trial where some are raped and tortured?

Israel overtly targets civilians with cutting off food and water supplies.

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Siman421@reddit

https://x.com/CherylWroteIt/status/1844907195953185093
fabricated photos

https://x.com/EFischberger/status/1845152107650838913

proof the entire story is probably fabricated,

its so easy to fool the west.

its not hasbara- its facts.

" As someone who is actually a forensic ballistics specialist" i guess oyu miseed this part of the first tweet.

not a doctor, correct, someone even more knowledgable on the subject than a doctor - someone who doctors refer to as an expert.

as for the 2nd person - words in newsweek, wsj, nbcnews, nydailynews - a person who writes for news publications- aka, a fucking journalist

i guess reading is only your strong suite when you agree with the words and not when they shatter your preconceived notions.

but hey, im not suprised coming from an account created after oct 7 - and probably posts only about israel.

[-]

PreviousCurrentThing@reddit

" As someone who is actually a forensic ballistics specialist" i guess you missed this part of the first tweet.

Would you trust the word of an Iranian forensics ballistics specialist telling you the opposite?

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Siman421@reddit

If they provide a detailed explanation as to why then perhaps. It's not about origin, it's about the words they say. Why is that so hard to grasp?

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PreviousCurrentThing@reddit

I am not ballistics expert, nor am I in a position to tell whether this person is. He's not just relaying facts but providing analysis, which I can't verify. Given this, and his obvious bias in the present conflict, I'm very skeptical of anything he says, just as I would be of an Iranian saying the opposite.

Why is that hard to grasp?

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Siman421@reddit

You can look up their credentials and confirm they are a ballistic expert. You choosing to just assume they might be lying is indicative of your own bias.

If an Iranian provided an analysis that contradicted this I would happily read it and look further into it.

Of course you can't verify the facts, that's what experts are for, just like you go to the doctor to tell you facts about yourself which you can't verify, or you get an expert to assess a house and you can't verify their claims. Not having knowledge doesn't give you plausible deniability.

I guess it's hard to grasp that expert opinions on matter, experts with verifiable credentials mind you, aren't allegations.

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tinkertailormjollnir@reddit

Oh convenient they’re both ex-IDF! WHAT reliable sources lmfao! Guess your critical thinking skills are as absent as your morals.

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ParagonRenegade@reddit

The two people he linked are actually IDF soldiers as well.

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tinkertailormjollnir@reddit

Unbiased great sources. Lmao what a fucking regard

[-]

If Hamas didn’t exist there would be another group that Israel would prop up just as they did with Hamas (see Bobbi’s statements on Hamas circa 2019)

You seem to misunderstand; a colonial power who is ethnically cleansing is the ultimate evil, there will always be resistance to extermination.

“Khamas wants to exterminate all Jews” is hasbara spread by the genocida ethnostate who’s been doing cleansing and forced land transfer for 75+ years, well before Hamas existed.

[-]

ridukosennin@reddit

Nah, wars are costly. Israel seeks security and is surrounded by people who openly call for their extermination. When a nation that is superior technologically and economically gets attacked, it will respond until the threat is eliminated.

The defeated do not get to dictate terms but religious fervor for "martyrdom" keeps feeding the violence. Palestine is beaten, but they won’t accept defeat. Egypt won’t help, they only spectate instead of intervening. They know the Hamas ideology is toxic and don’t want to draw their people into this mess.

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Leather-Ad-7799@reddit

Ok so you are definitely a bot and really can’t answer a single point I bring up lol.

Chat GPT can’t save the Zionist cause unfortunately.

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Bloaf@reddit

even their own hostages.

Its weird how people fixate on this. Israels actions with respect to their hostages have a crystal clear motivation: Israel absolutely cannot set the precedent that hostages are 'one weird trick' to force Israel to stand down. Doing so would guarantee that hostage taking would be Hamas' primary form of attack for the forseeable future.

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GalacticMe99@reddit

Yup, Hamas are shit stains on this world but the people downvoting these comments seriously need to reattach to reality.

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Fuzzy_Yogurt_Bucket@reddit

Israel gonna get that Hamas bussy.

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Level-Technician-183@reddit

it only got worse by the time.

Gaza City, 15 June 2022 – Fifteen years of life under blockade has left four out of five children in the Gaza Strip reporting that they live with depression, grief and fear, according to disturbing findings released today by Save the Children.

The research found the mental wellbeing of children, young people and caregivers has dramatically deteriorated since a similar study in 2018, with the number of children reporting emotional distress increasing to 80% from 55%. These findings again show that maintaining the current status quo is negatively impacting children’s wellbeing and hopes for a better future.

The report, titled “Trapped”, found a huge increase in children who reported feeling fearful (84% compared to 50% in 2018), nervous (80% compared to 55%), sad or depressed (77% compared to 62%) and grieving (78% compared to 55%). It also found that more than half of Gaza’s children have contemplated suicide and three out of five are self-harming.

I personally knew a gazan girl, one of her posts was "they knew something like this will happen someday". Having fear of future as a part of you daily diet is fucked up ofcourse.

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Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

And this trauma will be passed on to the next 2 or 3 generations because we know trauma changes the epigenome.

I also want to add the Gaza blockade didn't start in 2007.

"Israeli imposed closure on the movement of goods and people to and from Gaza dates back to 1991 when Israel cancelled the general exit permit for Palestinians in the occupied territories. This policy was initially temporary, but eventually developed into a permanent administrative measure in March of 1993. Since then, the closure has varied in intensity, but has never been completely lifted. For example, between 1993 and 1996, total closure was imposed on the Gaza Strip for a cumulative 342 days. During periods of total closure, Israel enforced a complete ban on any movement of people or goods between Gaza and Israel, the West Bank and foreign markets. The economic impact of these closures during 1996 alone was estimated by the World Bank as amounting to losses of almost 40% of Gaza's GNP. [29]"

"Israel blockaded the Gaza Strip at various levels of intensity in 2005–2006."

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monkwren@reddit

And this trauma will be passed on to the next 2 or 3 generations because we know trauma changes the epigenome.

Israel deliberately creating the next 2 generations of Palestinian terrorists so they have a "justification" for their continued illegal settlements.

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ridukosennin@reddit

The sad thing is there is no clear solution. Israel won’t stop unless forced to but no one is willing to step up. Most Palestinian allies are acting more like spectators trying to exploit the situation for political gain. Even with a cease fire or two state solution the hate will be unresolved and violence will erupt again at the next opportunity. This is a thousand year blood feud, a literally holy war to many where they would gladly make themselves and others martyrs to perpetuate it

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cheesemaster_3000@reddit

A thousand year blood feud? It started after ww1 when the Ottoman empire was dismembered by the winners.

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BrownThunderMK@reddit

There is a clear solution, it's called giving Palestinians a state along the 1967 borders: https://youtu.be/GYr3hYjHlx8?si=0Vb7r5LqNDygV68r

Unfortunately, Israel has spent far too much time and effort ethnically cleansing West Bank and settling it, to ever consider such a reasonable deal.

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TendieRetard@reddit (OP)

non-paywall archive https://archive.ph/tv9km and I'm just fillling text because this sub demands that I use more text to keep post here.

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Alaknar@reddit

I'm going to get downvoted to oblivion for saying this but: these x-ray images don't seem real.

First of all, a 5.56 bullet would go through-and-through a human head.

Secondly - wtf are they shooting there? Tungsten rounds? There's ZERO deformation of the bullet, it's like someone stripped a round of the casing and implanted the bullet into the head.

Thirdly - none of the x-rays seem to be from people who got shot in the head from close distance (and the implication is that they're being executed), because THIS is how a human head behaves when shot by 5.56 from short range.

I guess some of these MIGHT be victims of a ricochet, but that still doesn't explain the picture-perfect shape of the bullet.

Don't get me wrong (y'all will anyway...) - I'm not saying IDF doesn't shoot civilians at all. There's more than enough proof for that. All I'm saying is that these specific x-ray photographs don't seem to be real.

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ParagonRenegade@reddit

I'm going to get downvoted to oblivion for saying this

And rightfully so, you're not a mortician or a ballistics expert or a investigator, you're literally just calling the doctors liars in more words.

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Yes, because he's pontificating on provided evidence absent any context of the injuries showcased, which is something a professional wouldn't do. He just made a lazy accusation of forgery. Not hard to understand.

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Mavian23@reddit

a 5.56 bullet would go through-and-through a human head.

There's ZERO deformation of the bullet

none of the x-rays seem to be from people who got shot in the head from close distance

doesn't explain the picture-perfect shape of the bullet.

What do you mean "absent of any context of the injuries showcased"? I just showed you four times that he referenced the showcased injuries.

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ParagonRenegade@reddit

That's not context, that's just him speculating and not knowing the circumstances of the injury. He has no idea about anything, he's just crying to cast doubt over the evidence.

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My guy, the problems is that Palestinians are being shot at, everything else is you and the guy above trying to poke holes in the evidence provided. That was done on spurious grounds and shouldn't be taken seriously.

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Mavian23@reddit

the problems is that Palestinians are being shot at

I agree.

everything else is you and the guy above trying to poke holes in the evidence provided.

Neither me nor the other guy are suggesting that Palestinians aren't being shot at. The other guy is suggesting that the these x-rays, for whatever reason, aren't legitimate.

You said he doesn't know what he's talking about, cited his lack of knowledge of the circumstances as the reason, don't know the circumstances yourself, and didn't contest a single thing that he said with any actual knowledge of the topic. You just said "nu uh you're not in a related profession" without knowing anything at all about the guy.

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Cooldude101013@reddit

Indeed. Plus they acknowledge that their theorising is on the idea that these were close range execution shots using a rifle (likely firing 5.56). It is also possible that it could be a smaller or slower round (which might explain why the round didn’t overpen, but it doesn’t explain how intact the rounds seem to be) or was from a longer range. We just don’t know.

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ParagonRenegade@reddit

He has no grounds or expertise to claim so, so I dismiss what he says and what you say.

My knowledge doesn't matter, because I'm deferring to multiple professionals who are actually engaged in the matter and dealing with it first hand. It's his word against a collection of professionals (in the letter I mentioned, it was over one hundred) who claim otherwise.

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Mavian23@reddit

It's his word against a collection of professionals

You're assuming that he is suggesting the doctors or medical staff have done something nefarious. You shouldn't assume that. He is suggesting that, for whatever reason, they don't look legitimate.

That reason could be bad reporting by the NYT.

He never explicitly blamed the doctors or medical staff.

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ParagonRenegade@reddit

Dude, give it a rest. He had a post from a year ago saved just so he could use it as ammunition in an argument involving NYT, he's obviously looking for a reason to dispute the evidence and from there the murders of the people here. I wasn't born yesterday and neither were you.

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And rightfully so, you're not a mortician or a ballistics expert

How do you know?

you're literally just calling the doctors liars in more words.

That, or someone at NYT fucked up with the images. But, yeah, there's no chance a bullet going through a skull doesn't get deformed.

As for the skulls themselves - watch the video I linked and tell me these images look anything alike.

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ParagonRenegade@reddit

Because you're a redditor accusing doctors and journalists of planting evidence, with no evidence for that yourself outside of eyeballing things absent context?

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Alaknar@reddit

Because you're a redditor accusing doctors and journalists of planting evidence

Are you suggesting this has never happened? Especially with NYT?

with no evidence for that yourself outside of eyeballing things absent context?

I linked to a video showing what usually happens to a skull when shot with a 5.56.

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ParagonRenegade@reddit

That's not planting evidence. In the time since that article Israel has bombed nearly every hospital in Gaza and killed countless people.

I linked to a video showing what usually happens to a skull when shot with a 5.56.

That's a showcase with a ballistic dummy, not you knowing what happened to the people in the picture.

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Alaknar@reddit

That's not planting evidence

Oh, yeah, my bad: it's just flat out lying, a massive difference!

In the time since that article Israel has bombed nearly every hospital in Gaza and killed countless people.

Try to stay on subject.

That's a showcase with a ballistic dummy

Correct. A ballistic dummy that's specifically designed to simulate human body.

not you knowing what happened to the people in the picture.

Make this sentence make sense.

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ParagonRenegade@reddit

That's not lying, that's grounded speculation that was redacted for being incorrect. And you ignored how Israel continued to bomb hospitals and murder people by the tens of thousands.

You obviously have no idea about what happened here, and are only trying to dispute the evidence to call the doctors and the journalists involved liars. There is no reason to think this aside from you eyeballing it; you have no expertise in the matter, know nothing about the circumstances of the wounds, and its your word against theirs.

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Alaknar@reddit

That's not lying, that's grounded speculation that was redacted for being incorrect

It's sharing unverified information just on the basis of "Israel bad".

Have any independent experts verified these claims? Has NYT bothered to check?

And you ignored how Israel continued to bomb hospitals and murder people by the tens of thousands.

Correct. Because we're not talking about that.

You obviously have no idea about what happened here, and are only trying to dispute the evidence to call the doctors and the journalists involved liars

I actually didn't, I said that the images "don't seem real".

Considering how many of these images there are and how NONE show any deformation of the bullet, it'd be a freak incident to the tune of someone getting hit by lightning 15 times and living. The probability of this happening is not zero, but is exceedingly small.

you have no expertise in the matter, know nothing about the circumstances of the wounds

You keep saying that without knowing anything about me...

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ParagonRenegade@reddit

You can't post your way out of the reality that you're just some random poster calling teams of doctors liars because you eyeballed a few x-rays lol.

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Alaknar@reddit

Never change, buddy. :)

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Leather-Ad-7799@reddit

He’s a Zionist playing defense for attempted assassinations of children,

Most “I’m not a racist but” ahh take. Zionists really are the bottom of the bottom of the barrel.

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YairJ@reddit

The bullets in the first two pictures are also more pixelated than the rest, and there's no apparent entry wound, especially in the second.

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TendieRetard@reddit (OP)

the implication is sniper not execution style (though there have been several accounts of this also being the case).

You could just google. 5.56 round xray

https://www.reddit.com/r/Radiology/comments/13tv537/full_metal_jacket_bullets_dont_necessarily_deform/

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Cooldude101013@reddit

One of the stories in the article did mention a sniper. But we don’t know if the X-rays provided in the article were of the sniper victims.

Additionally, contrary to popular belief, snipers and soldiers in general are taught to aim for centre mass because there’s less chance of missing. Headshots at long range are usually due to luck, skill, weather conditions, muzzle velocity, etc. Headshots at close range can happen more often from intentional aiming.

Now I just looked at the three x-rays again, the top one does seem to be from a sniper due to the angle of the bullets trajectory.

The middle one has the bullet on an upwards trajectory so unless they were bending over or laying face down, a sniper shot from above seems unlikely.

The bottom one shows the bullet on an essentially vertical trajectory, basically directly from above, which would be pretty difficult for a sniper high up with a bulky rifle, but much easier for a soldier at close range making an execution shot, possibly while the child was kneeling..

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Alaknar@reddit

Yeah, "dozens of cases" - among thousands upon thousands where deformation happens or the bullet goes through.

It's just a weird selection of x-rays where not a single one is deformed, don't you think?

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TendieRetard@reddit (OP)

The IDF & NATO have 5.56 FMJ rounds. A sniper round can lose a tone of energy in its trajectory. It's clear to me this is a bad faith argument at this point.

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Alaknar@reddit

A sniper round can lose a ton of energy in its trajectory

It would be a world-class shot if it was from far enough to lose that much energy, especially in an urban environment.

It's clear to me this is a bad faith argument at this point.

You go ahead and believe whatever you want. I'll remain cautious regarding whatever comes out of the NYT, considering their track record.

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TendieRetard@reddit (OP)

Given the IDF treating this as a game, why would you find it surprising that they're hunting humans for sport 'establishing records'?

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Alaknar@reddit

Not every single IDF sniper has literally world-class skills.

Which means there should be many more examples of shots that did deform or went through-and-through, or massively damaged the skull.

Either the doctors or the journalists decided to pick these specific images where every single bullet is in mint condition and lodged inside an intact skull.

I find it extremely weird.

That's all I'm saying.

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TendieRetard@reddit (OP)

What are you arguing here? That Palestinians are propping cadavers on top of bullets in the X-ray machine and sending this to the NYT? Despite dozens of healthcare volunteers telling you what they witnessed?

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Alaknar@reddit

That, or that the images were edited, or that NYT specifically chose these images for some weird reason.

We know for a fact that Hamas has been doing similar stuff to the first option, we know for a fact that they use edited footage for their propaganda and we know that NYT tends to omit facts when trying to show Israel in bad light.

I'd love to see this topic picked up by other outlets and the images analysed by specialists, because this is just weird.

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https://x.com/CherylWroteIt/status/1844907195953185093
fabricated photos

https://x.com/EFischberger/status/1845152107650838913

proof the entire story is probably fabricated,

by the same token i can call you a liar because you arent a real renegade or a paragon.

dont be purposefully obtuse.

be critical of things you read online - like a real person should be.

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ParagonRenegade@reddit

They openly support the IDF and are members of the IDF, the organization accused of doing the crime. Might as well have SS troopers offer their opinion on the Holocaust.

Nobody is dumb enough to believe unverified posts from lunatics online.

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Siman421@reddit

yet you believe an unverified article - when ive shown you proof the author is a pro hamas person - the ones who have taken hostages and use schools to shoot rockets at israel.

see, i can use your argument against you, its not even hard to do.

maybe look into the claims themselves? guessing you wont though.

you seem to be the one dumb enough to believe unverified claims from lunatics. ;)

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ParagonRenegade@reddit

It's a post from the New York Times, the Gray Lady, it's fine.

when ive shown you proof the author is a pro hamas person

No you haven't, being a part of the org the guy pointed out doesn't mean you support Hamas. Not that it matters, because the doctors in the article are not with Hamas.

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Siman421@reddit

the org, on oct 7 (before any israeli response) tweeted out looking for support for gaza, and not acknowledging the hamas attack.

theyve left hamas propaganda unedited on their twitter for over a year.

they routinely collaborate with CAIR (the US-based Hamas front group)

they openly support and invite known antisemties to thier events

they clearly, by every metric, support hamas. no mention of the hamas attack onj oct 7 is enough to see that.

impartiality on the subject of israel palestine, on the side of Palestinians, is interchangeable with support to hamas and its cause.

i guess you are obtuse on purpose.

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ParagonRenegade@reddit

Sounds like nonsense to me.

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Siman421@reddit

when facts sound like nonsense to you, thats when youve gone too far.

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Dramatical45@reddit

It's in opinion section because it is interviews with doctors and nurses who's statements can be verified and are stating their opinions on matters. Can't really be news unless this was a study with evidence behind it other than just testimonials.

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TendieRetard@reddit (OP)

Dramatical45•9m ago•Edited 1m ago• Europe

It's in opinion section because it is interviews with doctors and nurses who's statements can't be verified and are stating their opinions on matters. Can't really be news unless this was a study with evidence behind it other than just testimonials.

Doesn't stop the NYT from passing 'military assesment/opinions' as fact elsewhere does it? Why do you only have 5 posts in 7 yrs? I figured w/20k+ comments you'd have a lot to say.

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Dramatical45@reddit

Edited can to can't.

And yeah all news do that. They interview for example the IDF who states what they think happened in a situation. They mark that as them saying not portraying it as facts. So IDF statement says etc, it isn't fact it's what the IDF is saying for example. Not sure how good NYppst is at following it but BBC is for example.

And I just generally don't post anything. Rarely have something to share or post that hasn't been already. I still comment regularly in various different subreddits? Not sure why exactly you are sleuthing through my post history? But feel free.

Would quickly find out I am far from supportive of Israels actions. But it doesn't mean you have to shut off rational part of your brain and want evidence/verifications in matters that is prone to propoganda from both sides.

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Teasturbed@reddit

Thank you for the non-paywalled link.

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TendieRetard@reddit (OP)

all the war crimes are always behind a paywall. The war hawkery, not so much.

I don't even know why this is in the "opinion" section.

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Teasturbed@reddit

It's in the opinion section for the same reason that that IDF soldier that wrote that debunked article was considered a journalist.

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TendieRetard@reddit (OP)

are you saying 'screams w/o words' was not in the 'opinion' section? ;O

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YairJ@reddit

Evidence mounts that the @NYTimes published faked X-ray pictures of bullets in Gaza children

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cesaroncalves@reddit

Did you write that blog page? something like 30 minutes ago

BTW evidence requires actual evidence, the word by itself is not.

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Siman421@reddit

https://x.com/CherylWroteIt/status/1844907195953185093
fabricated photos

https://x.com/EFischberger/status/1845152107650838913

proof the entire story is probably fabricated,

blame israel for things they have actually done, and maybe stop eating up every story coming out that doesnt have proper verification.

literally any doctor can tell you the story and the provided xrays dont match up in the slightest.

didint expect any proper research from this sub anyway

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cheesemaster_3000@reddit

Are posting this under every comment?

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Siman421@reddit

Just under a couple, with the hopes of someone actually going through it and seeing through this propaganda piece of an article.

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cheesemaster_3000@reddit

Not sure twitter accounts of IDF soldiers are a reliable source. I'm guessing you're posting this so people don't know who to believe.

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Siman421@reddit

One is a ballistic expert - literally an expert on what bullets do to bodies and how those bullets and those bodies behave, and one is a journalist showing you proof of affiliation between the author of the article and a group with many previous pro Hamas activities. If you judge them by who they are and now what they do, you're just being racist, obtuse, or you know you have no argument and have a need to deflect.

Siman421@reddit

https://x.com/CherylWroteIt/status/1844907195953185093
fabricated photos

https://x.com/EFischberger/status/1845152107650838913

proof the entire story is probably fabricated,

its so easy to fool the west.

heres proof of you propping up propaganda - by an author who thinks hamas doesnt use human shields

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alonlankri@reddit

No kids deserve to be victims of war. Damn Hamas, Iran, Qatar, and Russia for leading to their suffering. And damn the terrorist loving incels in this group who think Israel had any other choice.

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Be extremely skeptical of any time these articles use the word "sniper." Snipers are specially trained long range special forces units. They are hard to train, rare, and aren't used in urban situations. It's just a buzzword used to make the IDF sound more evil.

Using terms like "high velocity bullets" shows these people don't understand firearms. Basically all bullets are "high velocity."