Europe was a leader on saving nature. Now its backsliding could threaten global progress.
Posted by Portalrules123@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 69 comments
NyriasNeo@reddit
"Europe was a leader on saving nature."
Lol .. someone is being gullible.
ZenApe@reddit
They were a leader in moving the worst pollution and destruction to other parts of the world, sucking in resources, and making their own place look nice.
And then talking shit to the rest of the planet for not being green enough.
Hot-Acanthisitta5237@reddit
And now what goes around comes around.
Sabrina_janny@reddit
a bunch of ecofash offshoring their polluting industries to the far east to smugly blame them for their own pollution = saving nature
EsotericLion369@reddit
There was lot of pretty words in the eu green deal. Instantly when they tried to implement even a small fraction of it the Nazi's came back. It's so funny and sad at the same time.
Substantial_Impact69@reddit
That’s partially because they implemented them poorly.
dumnezero@reddit
Such as...?
Substantial_Impact69@reddit
I don’t need to list a specific policy all you have to say is, “So this government policy that’s mostly regulations and red tape will surely fix the climate this time guys!”
dumnezero@reddit
That's how bureaucracy works. Red tape. What do you want, a local environmental police monitoring every movement?
Glodraph@reddit
We never were, yeah. I live in a part of Italy where people SAY they love nature but at the same time they still using surface to build shit and the thing is getting dangerous. Fresh water is managed like crap and rivers are exploit without any reasoning, it's sad.
bernerdude2020@reddit
Europe thinks pretty damn highly of itself.
Significant_Swing_76@reddit
Here in Denmark, our oceans are dying. All the rain we’ve had this year (like the years before) washes out all the fertilizer from the farmers who’s pushing for ever more growth. We are the most farming intensive country in the EU, and because of our government’s reluctance to do anything that might harm farmers bottom line, the catastrophe just continues.
Our government says they want to save our aquatic ecosystems, but doesn’t do shit besides saying they want to do something.
Which is pretty much why no one is going to do shit to save this planet. We are destined to kill the planet in our everlasting pursuit of growth at all costs.
If we - Denmark, can’t get our shit together, then no one can. Not because we are better than anyone else, but we have all the prerequisites to actually do something, and we should have the incentive to actually save the very waters our nation is shaped by. But no, we need to farm everything to death, just to be able to produce cheap pork for export.
Fuck.
Mylaur@reddit
How can you convince a country to degrow when its economy is based on growth? Idk
Significant_Swing_76@reddit
Exactly, it’s simply not possible. And any political party that wants that, simply won’t get into power.
Humans are comfort creatures, and we don’t want to give up even the slightest bit of comfort in order to help the planet cope with what we have done.
Just ask people to just cut down on meat. Or air travel. Or giant cars.
Superfluous_GGG@reddit
Yeah, I don't think any democratic government anywhere has the support to do what needs to be done, and no autocratic one cares.
BloodyEjaculate@reddit
china is probably the only country in the world that has taken the objective of a global green energy transition seriously
Erick_L@reddit
If you mean all that renewable energy, they do this for economic reasons.
Sabrina_janny@reddit
who cares what reason they're doing it for?
Erick_L@reddit
They're NOT doing it. They add renewables to continue their growth, with more environmental damage as a consequence.
Adding energy sources or efficiency does not reduce environmental impact. We don't build public transit to reduce emissions but to save energy on transportation and direct it elsewhere, for growth.
Mylaur@reddit
Most people are in favor of climate policies. And some people are fine with cutting down consumption. It's that the people in power, don't. And the economy is pretty bad currently that degrowth seems insane in comparison.
pajamakitten@reddit
Not true. You look at how environmental protesters are treated in the UK and you can see that people want climate policies when polled on the street, just not ones that force them to consume less. People just want green capitalism instead.
Mylaur@reddit
Hmm yeah maybe that's what I wanted to word. You're right.
BTRCguy@reddit
As best I can tell, every living thing on the planet is based on concentrating resources into itself and expanding its range and numbers. And a species capable of creating abstract organizations like governments will of course be turned towards these goals.
Expecting that degrowth (a voluntary reduction) is going to happen is wishful thinking. We will cut back our resource usage only when there is no other choice. For instance, the reason SUVs exist is because they were passenger vehicles classed as light trucks, which had lower mandated fuel efficiency standards than actual passenger cars like station wagons. So, rather than buy a fuel efficient vehicle, people upgraded to 3 ton Ford Excursions instead.
We suck.
Mylaur@reddit
So it's simply inevitable. Put an animal species on an island with no predator and it will extinguish its food resource.
Arceuthobium@reddit
Exactly. We may be more intelligent individually, but collectively we behave no different than hungry bacteria in a medium.
BTRCguy@reddit
We have the perception of time that lets us foresee it, but lack the collective self-control or wisdom to avoid it.
TrickyProfit1369@reddit
Yeah. Same with yeast in a petri dish.
HomoExtinctisus@reddit
I hope when people speak of degrowth they are speaking of population degrowth because that is the only thing that would truly allow us to live within Earth's carrying capacity, or whats left of it.
Somebody37721@reddit
Three tangible things that can be done on individual level: 1. Don't have kids (less labor for companies) 2. Be unproductive (work as little as possible, work inefficiently if possible at your work place) 3. Consume as little as possible, buy at second hand shops and repair your stuff (less demand)
Z3r0sama2017@reddit
People starving, not just being hungry, actually starving is one of the few things that will bring the people out onto the streets to riot and topple the government.
All governments know this as their are plenty of historical examples with the French Revolution being probably the most well known one.
Any policy that reduces food security is going to be the hardest of hard sells to those currently in power.
rosiofden@reddit
I think Scandinavia was the last place that was letting me have any semblance of hope. That's gone now. We really are fucked, aren't we?
The last thread I have is that, once we're gone and our processes stop, the planet will recover. It may take millions, or even a couple billion years, but the planet will recover. I have to believe that so I don't jump in front of a combine.
Madness_Reigns@reddit
Pretty sure we'll kill mankind before we come close to killing the planet.
Significant_Swing_76@reddit
Yes, and if it were only humankind that perished, it would provide some solace. But we are going to kill off every large species before we go extinct.
Madness_Reigns@reddit
Yes, but that happens all the time. It'll bounce back, it'll be different, but it'll bounce back. I doubt we can do as much damage as some of the extinction events which wiped over 80% of the contemporary species even if we tried real hard.
JoeBobsfromBoobert@reddit
Wow how completely reductionist. "Happens all the time" spoken like your a 10 million year old being. You may be cool with blowing your shot at this universe like a moron but im certainly not
Madness_Reigns@reddit
There is absolutely nothing you and I can do to prevent it. I accepted it, my anger phase about it is well on the past.
JoeBobsfromBoobert@reddit
That's as healthy as anyone can ask really i have no room to talk the only reason i garnered any hope back was cause i think aliens have been collecting flora and fauna So even if we do blow it theres hopefully a library 🤷♂️
gargar7@reddit
Ocean acidification combined with rapid global heating is probably on track for a lot more than 80%.
Madness_Reigns@reddit
That's giving us too much credit.
gargar7@reddit
We've already dramatically affected the oceans' PH and are at the threshold of kneecapping the plankton that form the base of the food chain.
"Ocean acidification has increased rapidly causing pH to drop by approximately 30% since the pre-industrial era." https://www.eea.europa.eu/en/analysis/indicators/ocean-acidification#:~:text=Ocean%20acidification%20has%20increased%20rapidly,are%20projected%20in%20the%20future.
The last time it happened, it is estimated to have killed off around 75% of life on the planet. And we're hitting the planet on many other fronts right now. https://news.yale.edu/2019/10/21/mystery-solved-ocean-acidity-last-mass-extinction
dumnezero@reddit
It may be a neck and neck situation.
Old-Adhesiveness-156@reddit
I wish the world could enact degrowth and in such a way that we continue to do what's necessary to provide the basic needs to everyone. When I look at the mass amounts of wealth generated for billionaires I believe their growing bank account is a sign of pure inefficiency.
MassiveCollision@reddit
Same story in the Netherlands. Farmers party is even in the government currently, so nothing will change in the foreseeable future.
Unfair_Creme9398@reddit
Even more intensive farming than the Netherlands?
wereallfuckedL@reddit
Back at uni I’d an ecology law module- Denmark, France and Norway were countries, they - in Scotland, always used as the gold medal standard for both legislative and regulatory measures. Also for having the good sense to consult your populations. Denmark overproduces electricity regularly from wind. Why oh why are you of all countries not leading the way on cutting off dependency on oil and gas (mostly gas)?
Significant_Swing_76@reddit
Well, we have grand plans for gigantic “energy islands”, one at Bornholm and one at the northern sea. Plus a couple gigantic solar farms.
Each seems to be grinding to a halt. Same goes for all the mythical plans of PTX (hydrogen).
It seems as the marked is saturated for unreliable energy. Who wants to build more wind and solar when your producing hour price has too much competition already. I’m sure the politicians wants to spend many billions of our tax kroners to expand the energy sector, which we also gonna pay a premium for, just to pay an even bigger premium whenever it’s cold, dark and windless, and we have to import all of our energy.
Denmark is fanatical anti nuclear energy, because we want to sell windmills. The danish government was furious that nuclear was given status of “green energy”, because one of the biggest lobbying groups are the wind mill industry.
Now I have nothing against wind, I love it. But when the narrow minded danish economical interests comes first, it pisses me off, because the result will be the continuation of coal and gas in Denmark.
trolololster@reddit
What do you mean? Magnus Heunicke calls himself the minister of the sea.
Surely that will fix our dying.
/s
Dramatic_Security9@reddit
"Threaten global progress"
What progress???
nugstar@reddit
The progress of natural resources from areas outside of their own into their own 👀
Least-Lime2014@reddit
Europe was a leader on saving nature? Exactly what planet is the author of this article from and what history books have they been reading? This entire article can be easily refuted by simply looking at a CO2 emissions per capita graph, most of which are European nations, nations they spawned or have directly heavily influenced. Honestly astounded at how deeply ignorant you'd have to be to write something like this.
finishedarticle@reddit
Europeans are full of shit. We bang on about "Western Civilisation" and yet are complicit in the ongoing genocide being perpetrated in Palestine.
fratticus_maximus@reddit
There's also not exactly a lot of nature in Europe. When I think Europe, I don't think "gorgeous outdoors." I think culture and food.
The US and South America have much more nature than Europe.
Least-Lime2014@reddit
Not anymore there's not, the nature hasn't survived a couple thousand years of human development. Read about historical accounts of Europe from the Romans for example will give you a much different picture of what Europe used to look like.
Cpt_Ohu@reddit
The EU just passed a bill that requires each member to return a percentage of its land back to a more natural state. Think letting a swamp reemerge. It's about as moderate as you can imagine, and it faced fierce opposition.
From what I gathered, northern countries were against the plan for both economic reasons (lumber industry) and also perceived unfairness, as "natural state" had to have a reference point in time. Nature in the core of Europe (e.g. Germany) was, at the select time, already past heavy industrialization and exploitation. So to, e.g Finland, Germany gets to keep the benefits of past exploits while Finland, which at the time had seen less destruction, will now be forced to undo a lot more of damage their polluting industries did trying to catch up in economic growth. So, even within Europe, no one nation will stand for choosing longevity over the economy.
The bill then got passed in part because the Austrian minister for the environment went against pressure from the conservatives and voted yes. The conservatives immediately tried to call back the vote. They sued her and spent weeks branding her a criminal and in breach of the constitution. All charges were dismissed, and no one apologized in any meaningful way. To a majority of conservatives and far-right voters, she will remain a traitor and possibly in danger for years to come.
Whether the measures required by the bill have any meaningful positive impact on nature in Europe will have to be seen in a few decades. If we make it that far, with either new governments ending the measures prematurely or the society enforcing these measures just ... ending, period.
Somebody37721@reddit
I'm in Finland and I see this quite differently. What benefits might those be? Population density here is 18 per km2 and in Germany 243 per km2. Converting carrying capacity to industry, people and consumption only begets more consumption and higher metabolic needs for the population. I would rather keep our real capital (nature) even though it's mostly secondary growth rather than to convert it into more people, jobs and consumption. It's just more vanity and mouths to feeds.
HomoExtinctisus@reddit
Hell you can read Charles Dickens and see nothing is the same in that regard.
Madness_Reigns@reddit
We've moved all our polluting industry to the global south and now we pat ourselves on the back.
Kanibe@reddit
Sorry, I'm confused, when was Europe a leader on saving Nature ? They been destroying it since Columbus first landed and ... I'm really confused now.
Rygar_Music@reddit
Europe, and the West, are resource hogs.
It’s a joke that people living in massive homes with two cars were going to “save the world from climate change.”
It’s like Al Gore flying on his private jet to climate change conferences.
Metro2005@reddit
Europeans don't live in 'massive homes' and 2 cars is also certainly not the average. You're describing the average American, not the average European. CO2 emissions per capita is around 50% less for europeans than for americans.
-misanthroptimist@reddit
I think if I was leading a prosperous country, that I might give up on the whole prevention thing wrt CC. It's over. There is going to be global catastrophe. Civilization will collapse. Of that there can no longer be any doubt.
With that in mind, I would begin quietly acquiring huge supplies of food stuffs -over time so as not to be inflationary. I would secure water resources. And I would attempt to determine how many I could save. That, too, may be a hopeless task, but it's better than trying to stop the unstoppable.
thinkingishardforyou@reddit
The only progress we can make to "saving nature" is for 99%+ of humans to die. No amount of government/corporate programs, awareness, or changing daily habits can stop us from destroying our planets ecosystems. People ARE the problem.
But sure, lets print more signs and all take our vehicles to protests. That will solve things.
ms-caregiver@reddit
I would love to see comprehensive global reform for voluntary assisted dying. Just make it peaceful so I can go. I am happy to give all my resources back so that others might enjoy life. VHEMT
dumnezero@reddit
I'm waiting for the day when the capitalist political controversy is whether to make deathcare part of national healthcare or to leave it up to private corporations. The people who hate on assisted dying have no idea how important this will be.
markodochartaigh1@reddit
Odd that orange was his favorite color though.
https://youtu.be/5uIyIjGUEIE?feature=shared
dumnezero@reddit
Thanks the far right, bourgeois farmers, and corporations.
Après moi, le déluge?
forthewatch39@reddit
https://www.yarn.co/yarn-clip/aa6300bb-6e8c-4c51-922f-d03498e83d5f
StatementBot@reddit
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Portalrules123:
SS: Related to ecological collapse as Europe, who was previously at the forefront of protecting nature, is facing a populist backlash from groups like farmers and the far right that is threatening to backslide any progress made. When the EU is often the global model for progressive action, any retreat is a threat to the entire planet. It seems that at the end of the day, humans are so obsessed with economic growth that nature isn’t even a consideration, or at least that’s what the neoliberal system has created.
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1g2r452/europe_was_a_leader_on_saving_nature_now_its/lrq4d7j/
Portalrules123@reddit (OP)
SS: Related to ecological collapse as Europe, who was previously at the forefront of protecting nature, is facing a populist backlash from groups like farmers and the far right that is threatening to backslide any progress made. When the EU is often the global model for progressive action, any retreat is a threat to the entire planet. It seems that at the end of the day, humans are so obsessed with economic growth that nature isn’t even a consideration, or at least that’s what the neoliberal system has created.