Spain is betting on immigrants to boost its economy
Posted by madrid987@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 362 comments
Posted by madrid987@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 362 comments
CLE-local-1997@reddit
The question isn't do immigrants improve your economy because they just do. The question is can your Society actually successfully assimilate them and not lead to the creation of a ghettoized parallel Society and the resulting social problems that go along with that.
People don't assimilate into a society they don't feel welcomed into. People can't assimilate into a society that won't accept them. And total assimilation often takes two generations.
Is Spain in a position to undertake that?
CatholicRevert@reddit
They’re leading to wage suppression in Canada
LineOfInquiry@reddit
The lump of labour isn’t a real thing, population growth (either from immigrants or births) does not lead to lower wages because more resources are needed to support that other population which leads to more jobs and more competition for said labour.
SamuelClemmens@reddit
That is only true within an economy not within a nation-state that is part of a transnational economy (where goods and money flow easier than people).
That is why the ministates in apartheid SA had zero chance of working (by design).
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Yeah if it was real us Americans wouldn't enjoy some of the highest average salaries on Earth despite having large-scale legal and illegal immigration
b_lurker@reddit
Illegal immigrants aren’t taking well paid jobs like IT or finance positions, they are competing for positions with a lower qualifications threshold like construction day labor or agricultural work like berry picking.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Lol, competing in two industries with major labor shortages?
PM_me_Henrika@reddit
There’s no labour shortage, only wage shortage.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
No there's definitely labor shortages in construction. We just keep going up and up and yet they still can't attract people because most people just don't want to work construction. I can't blame them. I don't want to work construction. There's not a magic number that will ever make me want to work construction
PM_me_Henrika@reddit
And like I said, it’s a pay shortage. Business thinks it’s not sustainable to pay people more, and they don’t, so able bodies won’t.
I know A LOT of friends (I used to work in interior design and fitting) who quit construction for a job at IKEA and other similar business because they say for the same take home pay (IKEA paid them bonus for each assembly done on top of base pay), they get less working hours so they ended up earning more for the same efforts put in.
It is a pay shortage in the construction industry.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Lol what?
I don't know where the hell you live but here in Ohio the starting walk on the job salary for a construction worker is higher than a warehouse supervisor at the Ikea in our state.
And that's not counting overtime pay which you're not entitled to as a salaried warehouse supervisor.
There's also a point where you can't rage wages anymore because your business can't maintain profitability
PM_me_Henrika@reddit
Well if a business can’t maintain a profit while paying a living wage maybe it shouldn’t be there at all. Go back to Dubai or Qatar where slavery still exists.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Buddy construction workers are earning a livable wage. They're getting paid 30 to 40 dollars an hour, and have great overtime opportunities.
It's not even that hard to make over $100,000 a year working construction right out of high school, if you know a guy who can get you a union job.
The problem isn't that they're not paying a liveable wage. The problem is that most people don't want to do grueling construction work. It's physically demanding and physically exhausting and exerts a long-term Health toll on you.
Raising wages has a diminishing return on the labor market. study after study shows people choose making less money but working a more enjoyable job or less exhausting job if they have the option.
Again the salary for a construction worker in order to get me to even consider working it would bankrupt companies if they paid it. And I'm hardly alone.
PM_me_Henrika@reddit
Exactly. Grueling, physically demanding and physically exhausting job that exerts long term health problems on a person.
With all the negative and business only want to pay the bare minimum and wonder why people don’t want to work for them?
CLE-local-1997@reddit
The bare minimum? Since when is $100,000 a year and Hefty Union contracts the bare minimum?
People don't want to work for them because it's an exhausting job and most people are not physically cut out for it
PM_me_Henrika@reddit
Since the hyperinflation really.
It’s really a supply and demand of things. The invisible hand of the market is at work. You can try break the market by importing slave labour from poor countries who would take less for doing the same job, but those people often take the money and send it overseas, not spending much on the local economy and make the market stagnant.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Lol do you say your own bills!?
Do you think 100k is not livable in most of America!?
PM_me_Henrika@reddit
If you can feed and raise a family of 4 without benefits on this salary, I’d like to hear your budget.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Lol without benefits is a massive caveat, considering a lot of these people have great union benefits.
XD
I could very easily raise a standard American family of four with that income.
PM_me_Henrika@reddit
Well yeah, just without government benefit.
I'm excited and dying to hear your budget!
CLE-local-1997@reddit
You wouldn't even qualify for government benefits so that's a non-starter
Okay my insurance premium with a family of four would be about, 600 a month
Rent for a three bedroom apartment in my area it's typically about 2000
Add an extra $500 for utilities
The average person eats about $600 of groceries per person per month
Car payment is about 300
So I bet all together and that's about 86,000, so 14 k Left over for savings + luxuries
Add in a second income from the spouse, and you got a very nice middle class life
PM_me_Henrika@reddit
I have to say, if a three bedroom house is so cheap, chances are, jobs nearby won’t even be half that wage…
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Lol I live here dumbass, you can get a construction job with a 6 figure take home pay easy, if you work OT.
It's just hard shitty work, in a cold and windy city.
It's clear your not American
PM_me_Henrika@reddit
You're right I'm not American, so I can only rely on data and facts to make these judgement rather than anecdotal experiences, (I hesitate to say "made up" as I don't want to discredit you without evidence, but I still take things with a pinch of salt)
According to my research, the average salary in big states like Florida or Texas makes around 20-36k an year, and the upper bound seems to be in the 50-60k. So where do you even get the 6 figure take home pay for construction worker from?
https://www.careerexplorer.com/careers/construction-worker/salary/florida/
https://www.careerexplorer.com/careers/construction-worker/salary/texas/
b_lurker@reddit
Labor shortages induce increases in wages. The injection of illegal immigrants to fill in the gaps makes it so that market forces don’t correct the wage situation, as they will accept a much lower pay at worst conditions.
TaypHill@reddit
“The injection of illegal immigrants to fill in the gaps makes it so that market forces don’t correct the wage situation”
Immigration is those very market forces in action.
If there is a need (for labour) in a region, the market can move people to that region to fix it. Only if something artificial blocks those market forces that it will try new methods
HellToupee_nz@reddit
Immigration isn't a market force tho its a governmental policy, espeically when they give private entities power over visa status as they do here which leads not just to people accepting low pay but wage theft paying to get and hold the jobs with pathways to residency.
TaypHill@reddit
Considering Immigration precedes governments by at least a few tens of thousands of years, you are clearly wrong.
HellToupee_nz@reddit
I'm sure it also precedes the concept of markets and nations and borders, but until we fall back into such conditions no it's not a free market.
TaypHill@reddit
i said market force, not free market. And i am not talking about the concept of governments, but governments themselves. Sure immigration precedes the concept of markets, but it doesn’t precede market forces. Supply and demand have been around since long before humanity, and so has immigration.
Your argument was that immigration is a policy, and the fact that it precedes policies by unimaginable amounts of time speaks to the contrary.
HellToupee_nz@reddit
Without a free market it's impact on the market is only down to governmental policy, we have just been through the most extreme example where govts completely shut it down.
Marc21256@reddit
Or drives automation. Or results in a "need" going unfilled.
Wage increase is only one of the possible outcomes.
b_lurker@reddit
Yes, either way this goes however, it gives an answer/resolution to a dilemma that the construction industry is facing in the United States that was simply pushed back by usage of illegal workers in the sector.
Marc21256@reddit
They weren't illegal immigrant workers until Reagan. Before that, they were migrants. They would come to the US and work summer, then go "home" to Mexico. I don't know when they went from legal workers to illegal workers.
But Reagan closing the border created the largest single act of illegal immigration in the history of the country. Those "trapped" stayed in the US, because crossing to go home and back became harder.
b_lurker@reddit
A good point to bring up for the context, it showcase the change in policy the government has had since then where as before, they were a regulated (the important part) stabilizing phenomenon towards the construction industry and the availability of labor while nowadays it’s a tacit quid pro quo where illegal workers find income and construction management finds work hands and generally cheaper wages all the while the ones to lose out are the legal construction workers.
Marc21256@reddit
Also, to end illegal immigration, just make it so anyone who employs an illegal worker is subject to a 20 year minimum prison sentence.
Illegal immigration will end tomorrow.
the_jak@reddit
The CEO and board as welll as hiring manager.
Marc21256@reddit
And the entire HR department.
Also the penalty applies if the worker works for a contractor.
Too often companies hire contractors to break the law, then pretend the lack of oversight is completely the contractor's fault.
b_lurker@reddit
This is off subject but I would say that this would perhaps simply change the demographics of illegal immigration.
Less economic migrants and more desperation/humanitarian migrants whose main focus is security and not necessarily upwards social mobility.
Marc21256@reddit
Most illegal immigrants come on planes, not ground crossings. "Refugees" aren't illegal immigrants.
So the political talking points are usually not based in reality...
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Except illegal immigrants in construction and field work still are getting paid alot.
Like I know lots if construction workers. They have all worked eith illegales. They all got paid about the sane rate.
b_lurker@reddit
Which is besides the point, if these workers were taken out of the pool of available workers, there would be less available construction workers which would induce an increase in salary due to lower supply than demand.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Lol, no it's not besides the point.
Illegale immigrants not getting paid less completely disproves your entire point.
And there's already labor shortage inducing a higher wage. People aren't responding to it and it'll just keep going up which will only risk construction companies going out of business because you can't make people who never want to work construction interested even if you're paying $1,000 an hour.
The actual economic reality is that you just don't have construction being done which tanks the rest of your economy because the homes aren't being built and offices aren't being built in factories aren't being built or Bridges aren't being repaired in a rails and such and so on and so on. All you're doing is starving one of the most vital sectors of your economy with necessary labor which isn't being kept away because of low salaries but because the job literally kills you
b_lurker@reddit
The whole point is that illegal immigration is used as a sponge that absorbs the upwards pressure put on salaries due to a lack of manpower in the construction business.
Its nonsensical to believe that construction will not happen because there’s no illegals to put on the field. When there’s a will there’s a way, and in your example of this slippery slop where the economy is going to plummet alongside the construction industry without illegals, that presumes there is no way the current figures in construction workers ever change even if you are paying new hires 1000$ an hour, is ridiculous.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
You keep saying that like it's true but the reality is it's simply not. Illegal immigrants are not driving down wages and we've shown that again and again and again and again. They're working in sectors where there is not a competition for jobs but a labor shortage and already high paying really good jobs that just are back-breaking and most people don't want to do them.
How is it nonsensical? If you don't have enough construction workers you can't construct anything. You have to wait till one project is done and then move on. It slows down everything from essential Bridge repair to building new factories and buildings. If the only people willing to work the jobs are immigrants well then that's the labor force you have.
It's not a slippery slope it's a basic reality. You need construction workers to maintain and expand the infrastructure that underpins your economy.
b_lurker@reddit
The crux of your point lies in an assumption that you expose in this sentence,
You wrongly assume that the supply for construction workers is inelastic and that no matter what pay/benefits are offered nobody will look towards construction to find a career outside of the naturally occurring numbers we already have.
Look at welding for example, the recent years have had a big cultural push towards that field. The motto was, « forget about going to university to get a bogus degree in an oversaturated industry and student loans, just learn to weld ». This was highlighted as a profession in response to the shortages in welders in the United States.
Despite welding being a job that’s not kind on the body, this push has given results. In 2022, it was an 8.33% Y2Y increase in welding technology degrees that were awarded. I insist on this point, there’s no job that anybody is above doing, it’s all a matter of benefits they might gain from doing it.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
That's not an assumption that's a fact I could back up with facts.
We've had a shortage of welders for 15 years and the pay keeps going up and yet we still have a shortage. Because what stops people from going into the trades isn't the low pay it's the fact that it causes massive damage to your body and a lot of people don't think it's worth it no matter how much more you get paid to beat your body to hell.
You're only proving my point further.
b_lurker@reddit
I bring you a statistic to highlight the increasing interest in a career in welding and in response I receive « what I’m saying is a fact and I could back it up with numbers but I’m actually not going to because you really should know better and you’re a dummy ».
Ok
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Except that increased interest isn't because wages and Welding went up but because of lack of interest in college. Welding didn't get better. Getting a college degree got worse.
You really have no idea what you're talking about
b_lurker@reddit
Benefits are not always positive additions in a zero sum game, they are also negatively applied. Read my comments once more, I specifically mention that I believe that most people are willing to do anything provided they receive the proper benefits and that your presumption that labor supply in « hard on the body » fields are inelastic is wrong.
I justified that by highlighting that in considering benefits, one thing that played in favor of welding recently was that as a career choice, it came with less bagage (very high amount of student loans) than other « kinder on the body » paths that require a university degree. Therefore, by virtue of not needing those expensive degrees, and having a high likely hood of job placement after graduation, welding is becoming more interesting as a career path.
It’s a negative benefit that’s being appreciated, that of not having all the drawbacks of college careers.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
And that's a very stupid thing to say because most of the people I know would never work construction. And that anecdotal evidence is backed up by research and study after study.
Your assumption is so hilariously wrong it's not even funny. Go down to any bar and ask everyone there if they would work construction. They'd almost all say no. Even if you change the hypothetical the point at which people would start to be willing to work those jobs the amount of compensation they would need is so high that no company could actually afford to hire them. Not to mention you're passing on that massive labor bill and making construction way more expensive which damages literally everything in the economy.
Merzant@reddit
This is patently wrong. But if your citation is an imagined barroom survey, I don’t think it’s worth explaining why.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
If it's patently wrong how come we're still having a labor shortage in construction when starting prices are averaging at $50 an hour and that's just National averages. It's way more in places like New York.
Most people just don't want to be Construction workers. Most people aren't exclusively motivated by money. Most people don't want to work a job or they're going to be miserable even if it pays them more.
These are basic realities but you just are completely ignoring
Merzant@reddit
You’re arguing against the phenomenon of supply and demand.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
You're trying to apply a 8th grade supply and demand curve to a labor market without any sort of other context. When you get to high school come back to me
loggy_sci@reddit
Labor costs increasing also drives up the price of construction.
b_lurker@reddit
Indeed
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
but might it not lower the available money in the industry if an organisation isn't able to build as much as it can? That's less money it can bring in.
b_lurker@reddit
Yes and no, in effect this could be countered by an increase in price meaning that for a lower output, prices may stay similar or even increase to counteract liquidity issues if there are no increases in available labor. This might sound bad but I do touch on how this might be good in another (much longer) comment in this thread if you want to read more on what I think.
IlluminatedPickle@reddit
"shortages decrease demand!" - this guy
b_lurker@reddit
Reading comprehension is not a preferred quality to have down under?
IlluminatedPickle@reddit
Economics 101 not a preferred quality to have by people who refuse to flair properly?
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
there are limits to this property though. You need to keep the needle around a scenario where consumers have more captial to spend on increasing prices and you can fill a position by offering an affordable amount more. There's no benefit in filling a position if the makes the organisation unprofitable as a result. So acute labour shortages won't necessarily solve wage issues. On top of that you'll have an issue with the public sector having to compete which again will raise costs and potentially required taxation and service provision for all the working class people.
b_lurker@reddit
Indeed, I agree with you on all points. The thing to note is that such a correction in wages could happen in a sustainable way provided other parts of the economy respond correctly (purely hypothetical and idealistic but here’s what I mean).
The problem with consumers needing enough capital to even afford these new prices comes to highlight the main issue in most economies nowadays. That companies, who are the biggest sources of wealth redistribution through salaries, have skewed the proportions of redistribution and there’s an increasing % of global wealth being consolidated into few actors. Essentially, profits are up for the shareholders but the employees find life harsher as more and more things become unaffordable due to stagnating wages and ever increasing prices. The only way to get out of this spiral is through a harsh correction. Various fast food companies have already begun acting this out in some ways. In the US, due to tightening labor shortages and dropping customer demand, you have big names like McDonald’s that are forced to increase base salaries for their restaurant employees to even be able to staff locations, as well as dropping back menu prices to pre-pandemic levels in some items as well as opening a brand new menu set that offers « affordable » options with their ~5$ combos they just launched.
Of course in the grand scheme of things this is far and few in terms of real examples, but my insistence on the role illegal workers have in all this is that truly, they mitigated the effects of this naturally occurring correction that is due and already is happening.
MomDoesntGetMe@reddit
lol you clearly don’t work in the tech sector if you’re saying this.
b_lurker@reddit
H1B visas are prominent as well as outsourcing, I do know. However we are talking about illegal immigrants.
the_jak@reddit
Americans refuse to take the jobs at the rate being paid when you don’t have that immigrant labor. Well documented in the past and recently.
CatholicRevert@reddit
The US doesn’t have high immigration for its population size
Liobuster@reddit
Everyone not of native descent is an immigrant in the states it is by default an immigrant nation
OkTransportation473@reddit
No it’s not. 2007 called, they want their stupid anthropology phrases back lol.
the_jak@reddit
Poor little fella, just can’t accept reality. Can you.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Nope that's just how America views itself as a society.
OkTransportation473@reddit
No it doesn’t. That phrase didn’t become popular until the 1960’s when Anthropology and Sociology went full retard.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
That's just objectively untrue. The New Colossus poem about the Statue of Liberty is all about how America is a nation of immigrants and that was written decades before. Do you think the sentiment didn't exist because the modern Snappy phrasing didn't exist?
OkTransportation473@reddit
https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Nation+of+immigrants&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3 You see that little jump in the 1910’s and 1940’s? Those were the first attempts at trying to frame the country with the idiotic notion of a “nation of immigrants”. And the entire world laughed at them.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
So your own argument is disproven as your own sore shows that it was first used in the 1890s
Well considering the idea of hyphen nationalism won the day and America is the dominant superpower on Earth and is still an immigrant Nation well Who's Laughing Now XD.
Liobuster@reddit
Well I guess we cant all get what we want
OkTransportation473@reddit
You’re the kind of person that is the reason why Indigenous Americans have to ever clarify that the term Native American is stupid.
Liobuster@reddit
Orrr maybe its just that my first language doesnt translate as well into english and the closest approximation of my word is native rather than indigenous? You know since not everyone grows up speaking english as a first language....
CLE-local-1997@reddit
1/6 Americans are immigrants
Marc21256@reddit
Now do NZ.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
What does that have to do with saying America doesn't have a high immigration rate?
Marc21256@reddit
Why not run the numbers first, then we can discuss, once you see informed...
CLE-local-1997@reddit
1/4, little higher than the one in six in America
the_jak@reddit
25% is only a little higher than 16.67%?
Marc21256@reddit
NZ is higher than the US. You assert the US is "high", but I could name 10 or so off the top of my head higher than the US. Which doesn't make the US "high". Or it would be harder or impossible to name one higher.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
The United States has 56 million immigrants within its borders. There is literally no other Society on Earth that has anywhere close to that level of immigration.
Since 1800s the United States has led in 105 million immigrants from all over the world. No nation is even close to that.
The United States let's send one New Zealand worth of immigrants every 2 years.
This isn't even a conversation worth having. You're out classed
Marc21256@reddit
50+ countries have a larger percentage of immigrants than the US.
The US is mid, at best.
You aren't even capable of understanding facts.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Please point to one country with a population over 100 million that's even close XD
The United States lets him almost 3 million people every year. Every two years A New Zealand moves into the United States. No Society on Earth so regularly takes and so many immigrants
Literally one out of every five International immigrants on planet Earth move to the United states.
Marc21256@reddit
Still mid, by percentage.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Lol, no it's not. New Zealand only looks like it takes in a lot of immigrants cuz it is a tiny country with very few people so they are make up a disproportionate amount of the population.
No country that isn't taking in at least a million immigrants a year is taking in a lot of immigrants.
Marc21256@reddit
You are clearly lying.
Why? Anyone could look up facts to prove you are lying.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigration-by-country
The US is mid, by percentage.
Quit lying about facts, you lying liar.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
How can I be lying when I stated my opinion? XD
Rational people look at the fact that they're only about 1.5 million foreign-born people in New Zealand and look at the fact that America lets in 3 million foreign-born people as immigrants every year, and realize that they're not even in the same league.
I've literally been in parades with more people than the entire annual immigrant population New Zealand takes in every year
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
technically almost 100% of Americans are immigrants ;)
CustomerComplaintDep@reddit
It seems to be 1/7, but that's still a surprsing number to me.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/09/27/key-findings-about-us-immigrants/
External-Bank-6859@reddit
You have larger wages but Americans pay for Healthcare and various other insurances. All in all when to take everything into account. The wage disparity is almost insignificant.
Also I always doubt those median income studies. Because there is a hell of a lot of people working two jobs.
Same in my country where we are one of the richest population in EU but there is a lot of people having a hard time making end meet every month.
Those studies if dissected would show that some earn 3 or 4 times what others earn.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
No it's really not. The difference between healthcare costs is not higher than the difference in salary. Even with America's shitty Healthcare System Americans are still much better off financially than our European contemporaries. The thing that pisses Americans off is that we see Europe doing Healthcare so much better so I can't we?
Why would working two jobs displace median income? Two part-time jobs collectively usually have you working only slightly more hours than one full-time job. I'd much rather have the problem of people having to work two jobs then high unemployment rates with some European countries having youth unemployment over 10%
It's just a basic fact of reality that Americans enjoy a much higher standard of living on average than europeans. Even if you only select certain nations in Europe there are currently no nations in Europe that aren't microstates or Luxembourg where the average person enjoys a higher standard of living than the average American.
laserdicks@reddit
The rich are selling those resources and the poor have to pay more in order to get the (fewer) remaining ones.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
…selling those resources to whom? Most rich people own companies that sell products to middle and lower class people, not the rich.
Wealth inequality has nothing to do with immigration, it’s caused by the structure of our economy currently with private ownership of the means of production allowing owners to accrue vast amounts of money off the backs of their workers or tenants or farmers without actually contributing anything themselves.
In fact, because we limit immigration and create a system of government violence surrounding it that just makes it easier for the rich to steal the value generated from the labor of said immigrants because of their illegal or dubious status. If we stopped that system and just allowed immigration ironically there would be less wealth inequality, since immigrants could advocate for themselves without fear of deportation.
laserdicks@reddit
To the public, including locals plus the new immigrants. Increasing demand for basic necessities.
Only a liar could openly claim that wealth inequality has nothing to do with immigration so this discussion is over.
Immigration is a tool FOR labor theft. Just keep bringing in more people until they have to accept low wages in order to get a job.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
Those immigrants also work to produce more basic necessities and create demand for others to work for them as well. There isn’t some hard ceiling of resources, how much is produced depends mostly on how many people are working on it which immigration assists with.
I’m not lying it’s been economic consensus for centuries that immigrants do not create poverty. Quite the opposite occurs, as I said above. Idk if you’re American, but if you are here literal Congress backing up my claim, despite their massive incentive to demonize immigrants. Here’s a meta analysis of studies on the topic that also confirms immigration is good for the economy. If you want to claim immigration is a net negative, please provide a source.
Again, more people = more resources necessary = more jobs = more competition on the employer side for workers, raising wages. In fact, immigration is even better than natural population growth for the economy since it skips the first 18 years of a person’s life where they are unproductive and massive amounts of resources are put into their upbringing.
laserdicks@reddit
No they don't; they work to produce necessities for BUSINESSES. Western countries prioritize skilled labor and so for every extra person trying to buy the same groceries we don't get another farmer; we get another software developer.
Yes immigrants add to the economy, but they add to the RICH not the working class.
omegaphallic@reddit
That what happens when it's managed right, but here in Canada it wasn't managed right so it ended up a huge mess that is causing problems. You have to make sure housing & infasture outpaces immigration, immigrants can't be allowed to work for less then minimum wage which needs to be at a livable rate, and you can't let the immigrants excessively cluster in the largest cities, etc...
LineOfInquiry@reddit
Immigrants working for less than minimum wage is the result of the power their bosses have over them both because of how your immigration system works and as a function of the capitalist power structures we currently live under. It’s not something they want to do, it’s something they have to do sometimes due to a policy failure that can be addressed and fixed.
ZlatanKabuto@reddit
hahahhahhaah
LineOfInquiry@reddit
If this was true 90% of us would be dirt poor caused by our skyrocketing population over the last century. Yet we’re richer today than ever before.
“Although many are concerned that immigrants compete against Americans for jobs, the most recent economic evidence suggests that, on average, immigrant workers increase the opportunities and incomes of Americans. Based on a survey of the academic literature, economists do not tend to find that immigrants cause any sizeable decrease in wages and employment of U.S.-born citizens (Card 2005), and instead may raise wages and lower prices in the aggregate (Ottaviano and Peri 2008; Ottaviano and Peri 2010; Cortes 2008). ” Source. This study is about America specifically, but scientists also find the same outcome in Europe and around the world.
ZlatanKabuto@reddit
Depends on how many people, if they are skilled worker or less, and the time frame.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
It seems to have benefitted them yes.
ZlatanKabuto@reddit
lol ok you're trolling. Bye.
OkTransportation473@reddit
It doesn’t lead to lower wages for Americans. It leads to not having a wage at all for Americans because immigrants both legal and illegal will always work for less than Americans. Doesn’t matter if it’s working at fast food or in IT. And we are supposed to be working towards increasing the wages for Americans. Not stagnating wages while also making it harder for Americans in all areas of life to get jobs.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
Again, it doesn’t do that. Immigrants lead to less unemployment, not more, for the same reasons I laid out above. More people = more resources need to support them = more jobs making those resources. There is no empirical evidence supporting the idea that immigration leads to higher unemployment.
OkTransportation473@reddit
It does lead to unemployment for American citizens. American male participation in the workforce is down 12% since mass immigration started again in the 60’s. We lost 4% of the female American workforce in just 4 years. And they haven’t came back since they left. Just to give you a perspective, 4% of women is almost 7 million Americans.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
That has nothing to do with immigration. The US has a larger elderly population now than it did in the 60’s, so of course the labour participation rate will be lower for both men and women. More people are getting a higher education as well, which also lowers the labor participation rate since many don’t get jobs until 22 instead of 18. Men in particular have a lower labor force participation rate because it’s become socially acceptable for them to be stay at home dads as well when this was simply not possible for most men 60 years ago. None of this has to do with immigration.
We have a similar level of immigration today as we did in the early 1900’s, and yet they didn’t have that labor force participation rate drop then. It clearly has to do with the unique social conditions of the current day and not immigration.
OkTransportation473@reddit
Labor participation rates only look at “prime” working age people. So it doesn’t matter what the average age is unless it’s like 66+. As for people going to college, can’t affect it that much. 75% of part time students have a job and 45% of full time students have a job. So roughly like 60%? of students have a job? So there’s 28 million people 18-22 in America. 50% went to college. That’s 14 million. 60% have a job, that brings it down to 5.6 million who don’t work. Take into account disabled people who can’t physically can’t work. Will bring it down to 5 million. So let’s be generous and say all 5 million students not participating in the labor force are men. 12% of prime age men(18-64) is 24.5 million. 5 million male students would still mean we have 19.5 million working age men who literally won’t work because they don’t even feel its worth it right now. Imagine if the entire states of Ohio and Indiana just decided they won’t do any more work because they don’t feel it’s even worth your time and resources.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
So rather than just speculating as I did before, I just decided to look up what economists think and they didn’t say anything about immigration. They cited either health reasons or the decline of middle skilled jobs. None mention immigration as a cause.
Also, I think it’s worth noting that women have an even lower labor force participation rate, so the pressure to raise children as a woman (as opposed to a male partner doing so) seems to be a large problem too. It’s more acceptable today than it was 40 years ago for men to be stay at home dads, but it’s still not perfect.
OkTransportation473@reddit
Don’t want to sound like a dick, but maybe you should actually look at what you posted. You cited the “bipartisan policy center”(which was started by fucking Bob Dole lol) whose results came from a survey of 2200 people by “Artemis Strategy Group”. If we look up who is considered to be reliable surveyors, Artemis Strategy Group is nowhere to be found. Also you know things like physical and mental disabilities are things we have real stats for? The rate of debilitating disabilities of all kinds has not dramatically jumped up that much. We would know very quickly if there was because the government would be making a big shit storm about spending.
As for the second link from the BPC you posted, middle skilled jobs are typically those in the trades. And if you spend 5 seconds on google, you’ll know that every trade is literally begging to get more people who can do more than just carry shit around. We need about 350,000 more welders just to meet the demand of a handful of acts passed by Congress in the past 4 years.
LineOfInquiry@reddit
Most trade jobs are high skilled jobs, middle skilled jobs are things like manufacturing or construction. There’s a reason trade schools exist and there’s a lack of welders: it’s a skill that’s tough to learn.
Is AP news a reliable source for you? They say that immigration has created a boom in job opportunities without creating a tight labor market. The Brookings Institute agrees that immigration increases wages and opportunities for Americans. Those are both pretty trustworthy sources, so if you’re gonna cast doubt on them I’d like to see you at least back up your claim with a source.
CatholicRevert@reddit
Except most of the immigration is in the form of adults (around 20-40 in age) who are working-age. So they’d presumably earn more than they consume.
OkTransportation473@reddit
Most immigrants are net negative contributors just like most Americans. Except they are even worse.
Liobuster@reddit
That hasnt been true since the industrial revolution
LineOfInquiry@reddit
Almost all workers produce more than they consume. This is especially the case for high skilled workers, whose specialized labour is necessary for our highly diversified economy to function. Ergo, any immigrants would produce much more for an economy they enter than they consume in return, which means more resources overall for society to share and higher wages.
Acrobatic_Owl_3667@reddit
And a housing crisis.
superfsm@reddit
Both already happening in Spain.Low wages + high inflation + housing prices crisis, it is a disaster happening right now.
omegaphallic@reddit
It's not regular immigrants doing that, it's the NPR (none permanent resident) programs doing that with TFW and International students in crazy quantities do jobs they shouldn't have
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Considering the average salary in Canada has risen 3.8% in the last year?
They must be doing a real terrible job of suppressing wages
CatholicRevert@reddit
Well the CPI (an inflationary index) for Canada rose 3.9% in the last year, which is greater than the increase in salary.
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/240116/dq240116b-eng.htm
CLE-local-1997@reddit
So you think immigrants caused inflation? And not Decades of terrible housing policy, specifically designed to increase the values of homes because homeowners are such a valuable political demographic?
Temporary-Fix9578@reddit
The general sentiment countrywide is that immigration in Canada is far too focused on just a couple countries, that our social contract is broken, and that public resources are strained to dangerous levels. Reasonable people know that the individuals are not at fault, but almost everyone wants to see immigration cool off until we can get a handle on things again. It has felt like there is no strategy from the government and we are all paying for it now
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Canada could have zero immigration and unless they fix their housing policy it wouldn't change anything about the housing crisis.
CatholicRevert@reddit
Higher demand for goods = higher prices
And the housing issue is both a supply (zoning) and demand (increased population) issue.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Lol yes, I'm definitely sure immigrants are the major reason for the increase in demand and definitely not private companies treating Canada's real estate market like an investment, be terrible economies of Quebec and the Atlantic provinces causing most young people to look for actually good work either in Alberta or Vancouver or Toronto, and also real estate gobbling up most of the capital in Canada XD.
Sure I'm sure some of the supply pressure on the housing Supply is coming from immigrants. But it is in no way shape or form even close to a plurality much less a majority. And the big issue with housing isn't increasing demand it's the fact that there isn't an increase in Supply because of government policies. If Canada was some total libertarian dream state with no regulation the house in crisis would have solved itself. Hell if Canada was some communist country the government would have just built enough shitty comic blocks the house Everyone by now.
Canada's problem is that it is both too capitalist to just build more housing while at the same time being too bureaucratic to allow the free market to work its magic. It's the worst of Both Worlds
CatholicRevert@reddit
These zoning policies have been in place for decades, so why are housing prices only skyrocketing now?
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Sprawl limit.
Cities can only sprawl so far
OkTransportation473@reddit
And why did they reach their limit? Canada’s population has only gone up for the past 60 years because of immigration.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Because laws not allowing increase density urbanization
OkTransportation473@reddit
Regular Canadians already decided if they wanted to move to the city in the 70’s. Zoning laws haven’t changed that much since then. According Canada’s official website for this stuff, this is the % of people living in rural areas by year. 1971=24% 1981=24% 1991=23% 2001=20% 2011=19%. 2024=18%.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
And the old zoning laws are no longer fit for purpose because the cities have sprawled to their maximum extent and they no longer can construct additional suburbs for the growing population to continue to buy homes in the old model
OkTransportation473@reddit
Or they actually just hit the full capabilities of Canadian infrastructure. And I doubt Canadians or immigrants are willing to go through what Canadians went through in the past just to get the infrastructure now. Because Canadian life wasn’t the best 50+ years ago. Bulgarians and Yugoslavians were richer than Canadians in 1970.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Lol what? The full capabilities of Canadian infrastructure is low density suburbs around the GTA Vancouver and throughout alberta?
.... you don't think people are willing to go through the process of building more densely in the parts of Canada that actually have jobs?
This is such a dumb statement. Considering Canada's economy continues to grow that means the infrastructure must expand to meet the needs of the growing economy
OkTransportation473@reddit
Yes. Infrastructure involves a lot more things than just simple housing. Ontario built or expanded on 30 hospitals. And it’s done absolutely nothing to take some strain off the system.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Well here's this wonderful thing about infrastructure. It naturally wears down so you got to keep building more of it or else your Society crumbles. So guess what? Looks like Canada has a chance to expand its infrastructure as a natural consequence of infrastructure being a thing that doesn't stand the test of time
And yeah because the problem wasn't lack of hospitals it was a lack of doctors. One thing immigration could be used to solve if Canada wasn't losing all of its best doctors and nurses to America.
Vancouver is one of the wealthiest cities in the world but sure it's full of junkies XD
OkTransportation473@reddit
They have expanded and it’s not enough. Wasn’t even enough before immigration exploded. 30 hospitals or extensions on hospitals. And over 300 care long term care homes. Just for Ontario. Still takes 6 months+ to do anything.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Did they fix the problem of lack of doctors and nurses?
Doesn't sound like they actually address the problem so it sounds like they didn't actually spend the money to improve the infrastructure in places it needed to be improved
Wonder how many of Doug Ford's friends got government contracts to expand those hospitals.
... what do you mean there can't be a lack of Staff if they built all those buildings? Do you think people spontaneously generate in buildings once they're constructed?
OkTransportation473@reddit
If they have a shortage, why did they build so many hospitals? Because let’s say hypothetically there is a shortage of doctors and nurses. Spreading them out over so many locations only increases the total cost of healthcare for everybody. So what exactly did they accomplish besides give construction contractors a lot of money?
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Why does it need to accomplish anything besides giving construction contractors a lot of money and telling your constituents that you invested heavily in healthcare?
Also upgrading hospitals is fundamentally different than building them.
Lalalama@reddit
I mean most of us who immigrated from China bought multiple houses lol. My friend owns 2 houses and 5 condos in Vancouver and Toronto
CLE-local-1997@reddit
That's not even remotely true. Of the 1.7 million Chinese Canadians only 1.3 million own homes. Their rate is higher than the national average but saying that the average Chinese immigrant in Canada owns multiple homes is just wrong
RobertPulson@reddit
The millionaires and billionaires exclusively hiring Temporary foreign workers are suppressing wages in Canada. Then they turn around and blame immigrants while counting their profits. Its the perfect plan.
IlluminatedPickle@reddit
Doubt.
SpinningHead@reddit
We know what you’re here to do.
exialis@reddit
They make the economy bigger and as we all know bigger is better! However, the policy of mass immigration destroys prosperity for average workers because it depresses wage levels, inflates house prices, and places services and infrastructure under too much stress.
the_logic_engine@reddit
The US throughout pretty much kts entire history. Wage growth comes from increasing productivity, not from the government restricting the labor market.
exialis@reddit
USA has not maintained affordable housing and as I pointed out elsewhere nominal wage levels are meaningless if workers can’t afford a home.
the_logic_engine@reddit
The US not having affordable housing is just something US socialists on reddit cry about.
If you're not determined to live in the downtown of a popular city without roommates it's very easy to find reasonably priced housing. I have several friends who built new houses in the suburbs of medium sized cities at very affordable prices.
The US has had consistent real wage growth well above the global western average for...well, again, centuries
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/s/DOn6Sd5U0w
exialis@reddit
Good for your friends but house price to income is at record levels
https://www.longtermtrends.net/home-price-median-annual-income-ratio/
As I previsouly mentioned nominal wage levels are meaningless if housing is unaffordable because workers have no disposable income left.
the_logic_engine@reddit
It's not just nominal increases, you can keep saying it but it's not true. Purchasing power is consistently rising.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q
There are (granted, a lot of) city markets that are fucked up because the government has too many rules about housing supply. But when house space per person has doubled, it would be silly not to expect the real price of that to go up. It's BECAUSE we have that higher disposable income that we can choose to spend it on bigger and nicer housing.
https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/new-us-homes-today-are-1000-square-feet-larger-than-in-1973-and-living-space-per-person-has-nearly-doubled/
exialis@reddit
That isn’t purchasing power it is just another gross earnings chart.
Big houses are not evidence of prosperity in the same way that bigger cars are not evidence of prosperity
https://www.investopedia.com/personal-finance/american-debt-auto-loan-debt/
Debt is not prosperity, but it does put a lot of zeroes on the balance sheets which is entirely the point of this bankrupt policy.
the_logic_engine@reddit
It's inflation adjusted for CPI
Having more stuff may not be the best indicator for human flourishing, but it is in fact the usual metric for prosperity
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Yes a bigger economy is better especially considering the sluggish economies of Europe are causing their welfare states to collapse.
It absolutely doesn't destroy the prosperity of average workers. It doesn't depress wages otherwise Germany which has the highest rate of internal immigration in the EU would be suffering from that instead of having some of the highest wages in Europe that keep attracting more workers from all over the continent.
Housing prices are much more likely to be inflated by terrible zoning laws than immigration.
And you expand Services and infrastructure which is a necessary thing you have to do anyway considering Spain's aging population and aging infrastructure
You've presented a bunch of long since defunct garbage meanwhile Spain's economy continues to grind because of an aging population and a brain drain
exialis@reddit
Germany doesn’t have affordable housing
https://www.dw.com/en/german-housing-crisis-finding-a-home-like-winning-the-lottery/a-68840785
Nominal wage levels are meaningless if housing is unaffordable, because unaffordable housing destroys disposable income, so ordinary German are scraping by just like everywhere else.
Zoning didn’t cause this crisis. UK and US didn’t suddenly make their zoning laws restrictive in the late 1990s when house prices exploded, it was because both countries massively increased levels of mass immigration during this period.
https://www.longtermtrends.net/home-price-median-annual-income-ratio/
Spain’s economy is thriving
https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/03/29/spains-economy-thrives-why-its-growing-more-than-its-eu-rivals
But because they have also taken the mass immigration miracle growth pill they now have unaffordable housing too
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/thousands-march-spain-demand-affordable-housing-2024-10-13/
You have presented a bunch a neo-liberal prosperity through growth twaddle.
meister2983@reddit
Would Spain really struggle to assimilate Latin American immigrants? I'd think that is even easier than America, which has worked well
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Oh I think America has a much easier job assimilating Latin American immigrants. Remember those Latin American countries like Mexico are also immigrant societies. Lots of Germans move to mexico. Lots of Italians move to Brazil and Argentina. There's a cultural connection that exists throughout the entire new world that actually allows us all to pretty easily assimilated to each other's countries.
I think the low or even non-existent language barrier between Latin American states and Spain would make it easier but there's some pretty significant cultural differences especially between the Latin American states with larger indigenous populations and thus more indigenous cultural heritage.
In my experience working with both Mexicans and Spaniards Mexicans are generally harder working and more family-oriented than Spanish people for example
bandaidsplus@reddit
There's definitely an Irony in how Mexicans have a legendary and well deserved reputation for being incredibly hard workers, and Spainards being lazy bastards
The Spanish were the ones who had the empire though. Talk about falling upwards lol.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
If you read about how Spain manage their empire you'll understand why they have a reputation for being lazy. They pretty much just took over existing societies and put themselves on the top of the social hierarchy and shot anyone that tried to argue otherwise. Part of the reason they were never able to really successfully expand into what we now call the Southwest United States and Northern Mexico is because the tribes in that region didn't have the kind of rigid hierarchy of the Aztec empire or the Inca and so the Spanish would have to actually build the kind of social system to rule over them and they just never did.
the_jak@reddit
Then America comes along like “have you tried murdering them all and then taking the land? Worked great for us.”
namitynamenamey@reddit
Spaniards in argentina: "write that down, write that down"
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Same with the Mexicans but yeah specially
Beast_Warrior@reddit
If we follow your logic, the Spanish with a sense of fearlessness and enterprise ventured into Mexico and settled there, while the lazy Spanish stayed at home in Spain.
kapsama@reddit
Well Mexico had lots of empires. The problem was that the Americas were cutoff from tens of thousands of years of technological and cultural evolution between Africa, Asia and Europe.
So when the Spaniards discovered the Americas it was like shooting fish in a barrel.
rrnn12@reddit
Would it be like Americans going to live in the UK?
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Not really no. All of the Latin American countries are heavily culturally influenced either by waves of non-spanish immigration like the Italians who makeup a significant portion of argentine's population or heavily influenced by the indigenous communities like in Mexico and Central America.
The Latin American states have pretty significantly culturally drifted from Spain either by letting in lots of non-spanish immigrants who have changed their culture in society or by allowing more prominent voices of their native Community to influence their culture and Society
meister2983@reddit
Isn't much of this true for America as well?
CLE-local-1997@reddit
America has absolutely not been heavily influenced by the culture of their native population so no
meister2983@reddit
I meanted the immigrants part. I would not consider America particularly British.
In some ways it actually might feel less British than Mexico feels Spanish. For instance America is not filled with a bunch of British owned companies like Mexico is. Mexico like Spain is heavily Catholic; America is more pluralistic than Brittan.
rrnn12@reddit
Thanks! I thought it would be like how all Anglo countries try to copy the US and wondered if its the same over in LATAM
Contundo@reddit
Don’t listen to him listen to the Spaniard that replied to him
CLE-local-1997@reddit
If anything the Latin American countries I'm more likely to be influenced by Mexican culture than Spanish culture
rrnn12@reddit
Thanks! Spain really lost all influences in LATAM then lol
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Yeah pretty much
Blundetto26@reddit
Spanish here. You have no clue of what you're saying. In fact, the reason why Spain has less tension around immigration compared with other countries in the EU (Germany or France for example) is because the main part of foreigners here are from Latin America, who have no issue living here and us living with them. In Spain when people talk baldly about immigrants they're talking about muslims and even the far right parties only talk about islam.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
So someone who's not Latino not from Latin America?
And you're going to tell me the person who's lived in Latin America with Mexicans from years of my life, and Has Been to Spain, that my analysis is wrong because you're spanish?
Glad to see your chauvinism shining through your trash especially since I never claimed that Spain wouldn't be more accepting of Latinos from the new world than muslims. Only that there are significant cultural differences between Mexicans and spaniards.
Something you would know if you ever travel to mexico. Not only would you have trouble understanding Mexican Spanish but you'd actually see a culture that is very different from yours.
Of course Mexicans are going to get along like a house on fire in spain. They're a group that work hard Party hard and have strong family values.
Blundetto26@reddit
A Spanish having trouble understanding Mexican Spanish? Again, you have absolutely no clue of what you're saying.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
That was more a joke than anything but there are notable linguistic differences between Mexican Spanish and European spanish.
DaoFerret@reddit
If that’s where the immigrants to Spain come from, then I would think the parallel culture and language might help a lot.
Is that where most of the immigrants to Spain are coming from? (No idea if they are coming from South America, Africa, the Middle East, Asia, Antarctica.)
wq1119@reddit
A lot of Brazilians are immigrating to Spain as far as I know (speaking as a Brazilian immigrant in Europe).
ukezi@reddit
I guess Brazilian Portuguese is close enough that learning the language is quite easy?
wq1119@reddit
Hello, sorry for taking so long to reply you!
A country that speaks a Romance Language is a quite attractive place for Brazilians, since Portuguese is only spoken in Portugal and Africa (it is sadly moribund and almost dead in Asia), so we are not really an "international" language to the same extent that Spanish, English, and French are, and we are not too used with learning other languages other than English, and there is not a lot of demand for foreigners to learn Portuguese vice-and-versa.
However, I found European Spanish to be quite difficult when compared to South American Spanish, a big issue that Portuguese speakers have with the Spanish language, is less the reading and writing part, which is quite easy to understand and get used with, to us, the big dealbreaker is that Spanish speakers speak way too fast, I am not aware of another language whose speakers talk as fast as European and Mexican Spanish speakers do.
They speak way too fast and talk entire sentences within like only 3 seconds, so despite me knowing the basics and understanding Latin American Spanish, I was almost completely unable to communicate with the average people on the streets in Madrid some years ago, I could even understand Italian better than what the average people on the streets of Madrid spoke.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
The government seems interested in attracting migrants from Latin America. I can't imagine the attract many from Central America or even Northern South America because there's just such a strong Pole from the United States with so many families already having members in both America and their home countries. But they might succeed in getting some immigration from farther south in South America although ironically some of those economies are even better than Spain and might not have many people who want to move to Europe
meister2983@reddit
On what metric is any South American country superior to Spain?
the_logic_engine@reddit
The US has been an economic powerhouse for centuries on this strategy. Yes there are struggles with integration, many US cities have "Little Italy" "Chinatown" a "Greek quarter" "Polish ghetto", etc etc. Many immigrant nationalities are associated with crime, drugs, drinking, etc (being Irish myself lol)
But immigrants are vastly more likely to be entrepreneurs and after a generation their kids grow up American and you could hardly tell the difference between someone whose grandparents moved here versus 200 years ago.
OnAllDAY@reddit
The US became an economic powerhouse because it invested and innovated. Countries like Spain don't want to invest and build up their own industries and create jobs instead of depending on tourism. They should have been heavily investing in Mexico and other Latin American countries.
the_logic_engine@reddit
Innovation is a magic word that every country wants to have for themselves. Turns out it doesn't happen through the same people doing the exact same their parents did in the exact same place.
Yes America succeeds because its productivity keeps increasing through productivity. Maybe look at the kind of people that are starting e.g. Google
terminator3456@reddit
Why is the onus of integration on the host country?
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Because individuals don't assimilate unless they feel welcomed and like they're allowed to be members of the new society.
terminator3456@reddit
If they dislike it so much they can leave, or not come in the first place if that’s such a concern.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
They don't dislike it. They like the paycheck. They only moved for the job opportunity. But if they don't feel welcome they'll just not assimilate and slowly create a parallel Society where them and other immigrants I also don't feel welcomed build their own Community institutions separate from the rest of society
TheMidwestMarvel@reddit
I’m sure the 2K Muslims chanting for the overthrow of the German government would be model citizens if we just gave them a few more fruit baskets.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
It's a sign of failed assimilation.
It's important to understand where it's going wrong
TheMidwestMarvel@reddit
They’ve never assimilated anywhere, not even in other Muslim countries.
The price of assimilation is too high for what they offer.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
They assimilated just fine in the United States. The US is taken in about 800,000 refugees from the Middle East since the war on terror began. They don't have parallel societies they have thriving somali-led business renewals in major American cities like Minneapolis.
So why didn't it work in Europe but it worked in the United states?
TheMidwestMarvel@reddit
The only Muslim majority town in America immediately went about banning the Pride flag and attacking LGBT rights and its supporters. The mayor also endorses Donald Trump. There was also a March where an organizer chanted “death to America”
And the answer is weaker social systems that force you to work if you want healthcare along with less handouts to refugees combined with forced relocation of refugees so you don’t get a huge community buildup.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
So Muslims have perfectly assimilated into American culture XD, considering they fell well in line with the 50% of the population that's homophobic and Trump supporting.
And again there's a huge community of Somali refugees in minnesota. That's where most of them are specifically sent.
So your example is Muslims acting exactly like American Christians and a lie about a lack of community build up
TheMidwestMarvel@reddit
Those Christians are a huge problem as well, so no need to import more of them which is my whole point.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Oh, so now we should not take in immigrant, because they assimilate into parts of the population you don't agree with it?
So first they don't assimilate, but now there assimilating to well?
Witch is it man?
TheMidwestMarvel@reddit
Immigrants are fine if they are properly vetted. The problem is a large influx of migrant and refugee populations which do not go through the vetting process. And the Christians we are talking about are very much not the majority.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Well maybe the us being more selective, plays into the success of us assimilation often immigrants, but the still takes in 3 million a year.
Also they make up 1/3 of the population. 80-100 million are evangelical protestants, depending on what definition of evangelical you use (( do Mormons count? Do 7th day eventantusts count, ect, ))
terminator3456@reddit
Ok, then they should be sent back if they don’t integrate.
Why is the host country on the hook for both supporting them economically AND culturally?
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Lol what?
My host country gets their labor which the host country usually desperately needs.
And if you're going to spend a massive amount of money building an immigration system that actively checks people for integration why not spend that same amount of money to help make sure that your new residence start on the path to becoming your new citizens?
KeithGribblesheimer@reddit
Study Spanish history for an answer to that question.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Spain has had times in its history when it's embraced its Multicultural nature as a state with multiple Nations within it. And there's also been periods from Spain it's been a racist backwards fascist dictatorship. So history suggested could go either way
Juan20455@reddit
Just one thing, Franco was never racist. He had his own Muslim guard that accompanied everywhere and his military career was in Africa thanks to the strong loyalty of his Muslim troops, that helped him win the Civil War.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Are you fucking kidding me? He had his Muslim guard because Colonial mercenaries were only loyal to him while actual Spanish troops could have loyalties with competing political figures or Regional loyalties that might lead to them plotting against Franco.
There's a reason the Pope and the French King had Swiss guards and the British had gurkas, and the last rulers of the Roman Empire employed verangian Vikings to guard them.
Foreigners exclusively loyal to you and the money you pay them are way more difficult to sway against you then native born people
Franco was absolutely an imperialist racist who believed that that his European Spaniard race had a right to dominate the Lesser peoples of Africa and rule over them as Colonial overlords. He also actively suppressed the minorities of the Spanish mainland like the Catalan.
And yes the army of local Mercenaries that the Spanish government used to actively crack down on indigenous resistance we're very important in the civil war. Because they were only loyal to the officers who commanded them and paid them and not to the government in Madrid that they only ever interacted with through the officer Corps
Juan20455@reddit
And when the age of colonialism ended he let go of his colonies easily enough
So you have any source he was racist? Because as you said, he was one of the office Corps that interacted and commanded the Muslims. I mean, he was literally the first commander of the so called Tercio of Foreigners, where all his troops were Muslims.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
You're joking right? Franco fought against Independence for decades, he didn't pull out until it was clear that there was no chance of winning and there was increasing International pressure. Franco was very reliant on the Goodwill of the United States and the United States had no interest in Spain continuing to fight native peoples in their colonies as those native populations were turning to the Soviet Union for support.
I literally showed you who is racist because he thought that Spain had a right to rule over lesser peoples and actively suppressed the cultural expressions of minority groups in spain.
If he wasn't a racist why didn't he immediately relinquish the colonies and fight to hold on to them?
Juan20455@reddit
Because no colonial power happily lost their places they thought it belonged to them. I mean, when is the US going to relinquish his hold over Hawai? Britain over Falkland islands and Gibraltar?
"he thought that Spain had a right to rule over lesser peoples" I keep asking for a source.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Yeah because they were all run by racists who thought that they had an innate right to rule over brown and black people.
The Falkland Islands in Gibraltar are populated by British people.
And the United States is also currently ruled by a group of people who still think the US have the right to rule over brown people
The source is the literal colonies he had dumbass.
Juan20455@reddit
"The Falkland Islands in Gibraltar are populated by British people" Expel original population, and/or bring settlers to outnumber indigenous population
The Russian way.
The United nations considers both Falkland islands and Gibraltar colonies.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
All right then I'll add " Franco didn't allow the original Arab and Berber inhabitants of mellila" to the list of things that make him racist. See I was just going to let that whole situation slide but hey if you want to include it that's just another tab that suggests that he was a racist
Bro it's racist to rule over people who don't want you there because you feel that you are racially Superior to them. If he wasn't racist he would have decolonized in the 1930s instead of waiting until the US began to pressure him to give up his colonies and after Decades of fighting insurgencies in them.
The inherent Act of having to be forced to decolonize is pretty definitive proof considering the colonization of Africa was an explicitly racist act born out of white supremacy
Juan20455@reddit
"people who don't want you there because you feel that you are racially Superior to them" you are definitely American.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
And you're saying a man who tried to actively kill the Catalan culture isn't racist.
Juan20455@reddit
While he definitely wasn't a fan, in the real world, the traditional dance of catalans was literally shown in national televisión multiple times while he was alive.
Besides, the BBC for decades only used official English and none of the dialects, France has actively tried to eliminate all the numerous languages in France besides French, almost completely succeeding. And I'm not calling every single Frenchman racist for that.
It all comes from a desire of unification for multiple, complex purposes. To put it all as "fascist/racist" is not only ignorant but stupid.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
" he wasn't racist he let people dance on the TV"
So your example of Franco not being racist is racist policies of other countries?
Yeah forcing One National culture that you believe is superior and actively suppressing minority rights and minority expression is racist.
What France and Britain and Spain did would get their balls nailed to the wall in the European Court of Human Rights today
Juan20455@reddit
I literally just proved that he wasn't actively killing catalán culture, since he allowed multiple cultural activities publicly, including in national TV.
"suppressing minority rights" dude, he was a fucking dictator. He suppressed everybody.
And since I just proved you that he wasn't racist with his brown Muslim army, you had to go to catalan culture, since apparently not liking cultures of your same race and ethnicity is racist?
Meaning of racism: "Racism is discrimination and prejudice against people based on their race or ethnicity"
If you don't like rock, are you racist? Since it's clearly a cultural expression, right?
Same kind of stupid
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Dude you're only example with showing some dancing on television.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francoist_Catalonia#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DPersecution_of_Catalan%2C-See_also%3A_Language%26text%3DDuring_the_dictatorship_of_Franco%2Ceducation%2C_administration_and_the_media.?wprov=sfla1
There's literally an entire Wikipedia page dedicated to detailing all the ways the Spanish state suppressed Catalan.
And how dumb do you have to be to think that you're not racist because you have brown people dying for you?
He used his African troops, because they had no ties to Spain, and so there loyalty was not going to be questioned because they were asked to bomb a random Spanish Town because their Auntie lived there.
It's insane to suggest someone wasn't racist because they used foreign mercenaries.
Juan20455@reddit
(sigh)
Apparently having France making children learn french is "racist", and having the BBC use official english is "racist".
And you are a racist. And he is a racist. And everybody is a racist. I think you are calling everything you don't like racist.
Of course, since you are american.
OK, from the beginning.
He literally was the first commander of the Tercio of Foreigners, the elite troop of the spanish army, formed exclusively by muslims. And he got there because the commanded multiple armies first made mostly or exclusively by foreigners, and fighting side with side by them, in the frontlines, the only way you could keep them disciplined and loyal. To say that a person that was literally sleeping near them, fighting near them, commanding them at shout distance, was actually racist, is kind of iffy.
Also you keep calling them "foreign mercenaries". Sounds kind of racist to me. They lived under the Protectorado of Morocco, with shared sovereignity, with Spain, so they weren't just mercenaries from middle east or so. Even during the II Republic multiple muslim's representatives living in the protectorado tried to convince the republic to just made them spanish citizens once for all. So they weren't spanish, but they weren't exactly "foreign mercenaries"
Finally, he gave Morrocco independence quite easily, compared to France that fought a brief war to keep Morrocco.
So, again, do you have any source that says he was racist?
CLE-local-1997@reddit
But it wasn't French children. It was Britanys children and occitan children, not being taught their own language in school and only being taught french. The French government attempted to actively destroy the unique cultures and linguistic heritages of its various peoples. None of whom moved to France but who ended up in France because France conquered them.
Europe has spent decades undoing the damage what caused by short-sighted nationalist thinking that has already caused many languages to go extinct.
People like you are the reason the catalonians want to be independent. Because people like you can't respect their individual cultures and Heritage and demand that it be destroyed. It's backwards racist thinking that's the reason Franco is hated.
Stinking that ordering brown people to their death makes you not a racist is clinically insane. Numerous European officers commanded indigenous battalions and they were definitely still racist. If Franco loved those men so much why didn't he let the move to Spain after the war? They were all shipped back to Africa and immigration from the colonies to the Heartland was definitely not allowed.
He didn't even make them citizens after how many died for his victory?
He gave Morocco back its chunk because America demanded it because Washington didn't want to piss off an anti-communist ally in the Moroccan King.
I literally pointed out numerous examples of him suppressing minority languages. He didn't Grant citizenship to his Moroccan soldiers. He didn't let them move to spain. He didn't allow Spanish Colonial subjects to move to the heartland.
Juan20455@reddit
"But it wasn't French children. It was Britanys children and occitan children" "backwards racist thinking that's the reason Franco is hated" I am not even claiming or caring if it was right or wrong. You claimed that's racist. I ask, is that racist, if they are not a different race? I say you are just spelling bullshit.
"catalonians want to be independent" They don't, even according to pro-independence parties, but whatever.
"If Franco loved those men so much why didn't he let the move to Spain after the war" Did they want to move in the first place?
"He didn't even make them citizens after how many died for his victory" Could he? That was a protectorate, not a province.
"Morocco back its chunk because America demanded" Source?
"I literally pointed out numerous examples of him suppressing minority languages" Yeah, I forgot. That's "racist".
"He didn't Grant citizenship to his Moroccan soldiers. He didn't let them move to spain" Did they want to? Did the Morrocco King liked the idea in the first place?
"He didn't allow Spanish Colonial subjects to move to the heartland" Source?
So, not a single source. Just your own opinion. Noted.
happybaby00@reddit
Not everyone wants to drink alcohol, and do hookups
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Do you think that's all being Spanish is?
happybaby00@reddit
It's a part of it is it not? You want immigrants to disregard their origins and partake in this
CLE-local-1997@reddit
No I'd say drinking alcohol and having casual sex are things that are pretty Universal and not exclusive to Spanish culture and there are plenty of people in Spain who don't drink and don't hook up
happybaby00@reddit
No in most countries globally it's not it's only in Europe and the Americas that it is and most immigrants coming are from the old not new world
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Lol, you don't think people have casual sex in other places on earth? Buddy Tinder isn't just a successful app in America XD
happybaby00@reddit
It isn't so widespread and public
CLE-local-1997@reddit
It's absolutely widespread anywhere where there's a significant portion of the population that uses smartphones.
And young men are just as braggadocious about their sexual conquests in most of the world as they are in Spain
happybaby00@reddit
So what do you and other Spaniards want from immigrants to "assimilate"?
CLE-local-1997@reddit
For the children of immigrants to be indistinguishable from the children of people who have been here for centuries.
happybaby00@reddit
That's impossible..
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Lol, no it's really not in fact it's fairly common. Most people I meet who are the children of immigrants I have no idea that they're the children of immigrants until I actually get to know them and they tell me that their parents are from somewhere else.
ThiccMangoMon@reddit
It's also been talked about that mass immigration is a net - on a contry too
CLE-local-1997@reddit
It's not if the new population is integrated into the existing Society successfully.
Snl1738@reddit
I think Latin American migrants would integrate rather easily in Spain.
It's not like immigrants coming to Canada from rural societies speaking English as a second language.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
My experience working with both Spaniards and Mexicans suggested a wide cultural divide.
Their language is the same but not much else is. The Latin American societies especially the ones that would be sending the most immigrants are heavily influenced by their indigenous traditions.
I'm sure the Spanish would appreciate their hard work ethic though
kammysmb@reddit
I'm from Mexico and moved to Spain myself, and I can say the modern country's cultures are quite similar between the two, at least in the larger cities if you compare CDMX to Madrid or Barcelona
I don't think many people at all nowdays have much of a connection to the local cultures in Mexico unfortunately
Joseph20102011@reddit
But working class Mexicans and Central Americans aren't into migrating to Spain en masse anytime soon because they could do that by bare foot to the US instead, and the US has way higher wages for foreign blue collar workers than Spain.
Spain should focus on attracting Filipino migrants who may be easily trained to speak Spanish.
Snl1738@reddit
However, the immigration process in America sucks.
poltrudes@reddit
Agree
CLE-local-1997@reddit
That would be a great idea.
garanvor@reddit
Meanwhile in Portugal…
Numantinas@reddit
That's their own fault. The portuguese are unnecessarily hostile.
Nemesysbr@reddit
Brazilians are treated pretty...mixedly in portugal afaik. There's definitely a level of friction, brazilians not getting the same level of jobs, sections of portuguese society getting uppity, but not really a parallel society either.
Nothing as a extreme as what happens deeper in europe.
IlluminatedPickle@reddit
I love how people act like the only way to successfully immigrate is to assimilate. Fuck that noise, the best immigrant communities hold onto their culture.
This isn't the Borg.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Well considering assimilation is directly correlated with becoming a functioning and totally adapted number of the new society and holding on to your cultural Traditions is directly correlated with experiencing discrimination and feeling rejected by the new society?
IlluminatedPickle@reddit
Yeah, because pro-Borg boring fuckwits demand assimilation.
But the cool immigrant populations don't. There's a reason Chinatown is a thing nearly everywhere.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Because of horrendously racist and policies forcing Asian immigrants to live in parallel societies run by criminal gangs and continuing racism making Asian communities feel like they have to protect themselves and not fully integrate.
Seriously chinatowns are horror stories of how evil we as human beings can be to each other. The fact you even bring them up as an example of anything other than a dark moment in our history where we ghettoized people and made them live in squalor and poverty because they had a different skin tone shows how utterly ignorant you are the history that you're trying to invoke.
Asian people want to assimilate. The fact they have not been able to despite their best efforts is a stain on Western Civilization
IlluminatedPickle@reddit
So those communities, they all still exist solely because of shit decades ago? They don't try to keep them alive at all?
Weird how many of them are still around then given that nobody wants to support them according to chuckles.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
They don't exist today. Not really. There are not small ghettos of Asian people. New Asian immigrants don't live in Chinatown they pretty much go live wherever there's a combination of housing and job opportunities.
The chinatowns as tourist traps? Oh yeah those still exist. Some Chinese restaurants and some gift shop selling Chinese themed products? But that's not chinatown. Those aren't the ethnic ghettos. They're just another tourist trap.
In New York most of the people who live in Chinatown aren't even asian. They're Latino
IlluminatedPickle@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunnybank,_Queensland
Cool story. These exist fucking everywhere.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
This is literally an extremely ethnically diverse community. Only 22% of the people who live there are ethnically Chinese.
Unless you're saying Australia is still a society where Asians don't feel welcomed and have to go live in their own special suburb
IlluminatedPickle@reddit
Beautiful display of "I only read until I found a thing I thought supported my argument"
31% of the population of Sunnybank reported being ethnically Chinese more than a decade ago, which you would have seen if you'd read a sentence ahead of where you'd gotten to.
More than half of the population of Sunnybank primarily speak a language other than English.
Also, do try to tell me more about how "welcoming" we are to immigrants. Considering more than half our population was either born overseas or one of their parents were.
We are the immigrant nation.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
So again you've shown me an incredibly diverse small community not an ethnic ghetto we're Chinese people were forced to live.
Which demonstrates you don't have any idea what the hell a Chinatown actually is.
If that's true why does Australia seem so hell-bent on rejecting such a label and making it harder for people to immigrate?
Also America literally lets in an Australia worth of people every 7 years. That's how many people immigrate to the United states. Once every 7 years we let in an Australia of people
IlluminatedPickle@reddit
Lmao.
About 750,000 people migrated to Australia last year. In a country of 27m.
You might recognise that as 3/4 of the number of green cards handed out by the US in the average year. In a country of 330 million.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
The largest group of immigrants that come into the United States aren't those that receive green cards. The people coming in on spousal or family reunification visas. We give out about 2.1 million of those a year.
The US let in 2.8 million people last year.
And again Australian politics are way more hostile to immigration. Donald Trump's anti-immigration rhetoric is denounced by even Republicans like mitt romney.
IlluminatedPickle@reddit
So again, 2.8m. With a population of 330m.
And you're still trying to act like Australia is more hostile to immigration when we're still taking more in per capita. You're doing a terrible job of this mate.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Yes. Your politics are way more hostile to foreigners and the amount of racism in Australian culture is way more prevalent than even the United states.
Maybe stop having such assholes running your country to print disgusting shit like this
https://www.buzzfeed.com/hannahryan/horoscopes-comic-strips-australia-asylum-seeker-advertising
And maybe stop locking Asylum Seekers in Naru in condition so bad that some literally killed himself
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-01/qld-omid-masoumali-inquest-findings-nauru/100584662
Maybe when people stop comparing Australian treatment of refugees to American treatment of Terror suspects, we can talk.
But any nation that would have something like nauru doesn't have any room to stand on to act like it's some immigrant Haven.
There's literally more refugees living in the United States then there are people living in Australia
Level_Hour6480@reddit
Spain has been doing everything right lately.
M0therN4ture@reddit
How so? They have been one of thr most underperforming.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
I have no faith in any of the old world countries actually being able to do it in the long term but I would love if Spain could prove me wrong
Marc21256@reddit
Many countries have a "Chinatown", and it's generally roughly equal to the areas around.
Many places have immigrants who do not assimilate, and it isn't that big of a problem.
Quakers, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Germans and others resist assimilation without great problems.
Usually the problem is not "assimilation", but "oppression". Like the French immigrant who couldn't get citizenship, until he climbed a building to rescue a child. Then he had citizenship in a few days.
He and his demographic are oppressed and "othered", and only international attention got them to treat one from that group with basic humanity.
Blaming the immigrants for not assimilating into a country that is oppressing them is blaming the victim. And as I mentioned, assimilation isn't required for peaceful coexistence.
In the US, 49 states and the federal government use "common law". One state uses "civil law".
WHY WON'T LOUISIANA ASSIMILATE!!!!
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Chinatowns were full of crime and Corruption and poverty. Those ethnic ghettos were literally the birth places of some of the most dangerous crime organizations in American history. They also kept the people stuck inside of them in poverty. Thank you for proving my point about why ethnic ghettoization is a bad thing.
And Texas Germans didn't resist assimilation they literally were already in a country that largely embraced their values.
Marc21256@reddit
Chinatowns "were"? So you are saying they aren't now? That seems to be agreeing with me.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Yeah because America stopped ghettoizing immigrants and so chinatowns are now just touristy areas full of Chinese restaurants and gift shops. The people who actually own the restaurants and shops don't even live there anymore
Marc21256@reddit
So you agree it isn't about assimilation, but the government and citizens oppressing the newcomers.
I guess that invalidates your previous statements...
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Buddy assimilation happens when the government doesn't depress newcomers. It's the natural thing that occurs when you live in a society. The children of immigrants should be indistinguishable from the children of native-borns.
Marc21256@reddit
That meets the definition of genocide.
Talk to me when the US speaks Navajo as the top language.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
You're an idiot if you think adopting the values language and culture of the society in which you live is genocide.
It's what naturally happens when you live in a place
Marc21256@reddit
So do you think the US should speak Navajo?
CLE-local-1997@reddit
The US has no official language. Would be cool if it was taught in school though
Marc21256@reddit
But the English who settled didn't assimilate. Seems hypocritical to change the rules now.
JackAndrewWilshere@reddit
They dont need to totally assimilate. That is just a relic of europe's racist past
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Well because of Europe's racist past if they don't assimilate they're going to be ghetized eyes and become a parallel Society.
If the children of immigrants aren't indistinguishable from the rest of the native-born population then something has gone very wrong
drax2024@reddit
Read about the Spanish Reconquista.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
... why the fuck would that have anything to do with modern spain?
Moses015@reddit
We’re currently dealing with this in Canada right now and it’s not good at all. Bringing problems from their own countries here, refusing to assimilate, ignoring our laws, etc. Very much a failed experiment at this point
mcilrain@reddit
You thought wage suppression improves the economy.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
https://www.cato.org/cato-journal/fall-2017/does-immigration-reduce-wages
https://immigrationimpact.com/2024/07/09/immigrants-do-not-take-americans-jobs-wages/#:~:text=Consistently%2C%20economists%20have%20found%20that,with%20different%20skills%20and%20specializations.
https://theconversation.com/nobel-winner-david-card-shows-immigrants-dont-reduce-the-wages-of-native-born-workers-169768
https://wol.iza.org/uploads/articles/42/pdfs/do-immigrant-workers-depress-the-wages-of-native-workers.pdf
Immigrants do not suppress wages. If they did then Nations like the United States with incredibly High rates of immigration and even massive rates of illegal immigration wouldn't continue to have some of the highest wages on Earth
mcilrain@reddit
Sweet think tanks, bro.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
I posted a mix of right-wing and left-wing think tanks as well as academic literature. When people on the right and the left both can agree on something maybe it just is objective reality
mcilrain@reddit
You thought think tanks and academic literature reflected both the left and right's positions.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Do you think the Cato Institute is a left-wing source?
mcilrain@reddit
What you actually said was:
I asked ChatGPT on your behalf to assist your discussion. (quoted below)
It sounds like the response you received is challenging the idea that think tanks and academic literature accurately reflect both left-wing and right-wing perspectives, or that those sources are fully representative of broader ideological views. They might be suggesting that these institutions can have biases or specific agendas, even when they are labeled as "left-wing" or "right-wing," and therefore may not always capture the full spectrum of opinions from either side.
To clarify your point, you could respond by emphasizing that:
You weren't claiming think tanks and academic literature are perfect reflections of ideological positions, but rather that they can provide informed viewpoints.
When think tanks from opposite ends of the political spectrum and academic studies converge on a similar conclusion, it can indicate a shared understanding of the facts.
Your goal is to foster discussions grounded in reasoned, researched perspectives, not simply ideological talking points. This could help shift the conversation toward the value of critical analysis, even when drawing from sources with particular leanings.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Lol I can't think of a bigger self own then having you use chat got to do your thinking for you
mcilrain@reddit
Sweet adhom, bro.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
You didn't reply to any of my points, there was nothing TO respond to XD
mcilrain@reddit
You thought I didn't reply to any of your points.
TheOddBaller69420@reddit
Congratulations you can have them all
CLE-local-1997@reddit
I'll take that as a " no"
nilslorand@reddit
pretty obvious strategy as long as you don't just exploit them for cheap labor like most other countries are doing.
Integrate them properly, make sure foreign degrees are easy to carry over, etc etc
RydRychards@reddit
Ah yes, the easy task of properly integrating people.
nilslorand@reddit
you'd be surprised at how many countries don't even try
terminator3456@reddit
Why is the onus on the host country?
nilslorand@reddit
because immigration is needed when the population is stagnant
terminator3456@reddit
Debatable, but even so surely the biggest beneficiary’s are the immigrants themselves, so perhaps they have some responsibility here? Do they have no agency?
nilslorand@reddit
of course they have agency, but looking at the way immigration is handled across most of europe it's actually insane how not MORE immigrants just give up trying and go full criminal
terminator3456@reddit
If it’s so easy for these immigrants to become antisocial criminals they probably should just be sent back.
nilslorand@reddit
This is literally not what I said
ExaminatorPrime@reddit
Western civilization is a privilege, not a right. He is right.
nilslorand@reddit
I never disagreed. But we should at least give the people coming here a chance to succeed, no?
ExaminatorPrime@reddit
Really depends on the person and how they got here. Used a checkpoint and submitted appropriate documents to immigrate? Sure, if they are willing to put in the work and are willing to learn the language and adapt to local customs, 100% welcome. If they paid a human trafficker 5000 dollars to smuggle them on a lifeboat and burned their documents before coming to the border all while promoting sharia? Ticket back home.
ExaminatorPrime@reddit
You can't have infinite population, Because you don't have infinite resources and space. Your population will cap at some point and I'm betting that a lot of places in Europe are hitting that cap. Hense the insane housing prices and degrading wellbeing of citizens.
namitynamenamey@reddit
I mean, if the host country wants to increase migration it only makes sense for them to not cause themselves a headache in the future.
liftoff_oversteer@reddit
You'd be surprised at how many people don't even try.
nilslorand@reddit
(our government barely tries fyi)
Blundetto26@reddit
In our case (I'm Spanish) that task is easier because most of them are from Latin America and really presents no issues for us, and we try to be welcoming to them. In that sense, we have "luck" about migration. Everyone needs it in Europe, but some countries (Germany) have to rely on migration with a very different culture that sometimes can cause tension within your country.
nilslorand@reddit
And that tension is increased exponentially when people are denied the right to work, are denied language courses, etc etc etc.
Tarianor@reddit
In Denmark they got full financial support, free language courses, financed homes etc. Yet there's still a large subgroup that does literal fuck all to adapt/integrate or even just try and learn the language. There's many that are jobless as well in spite of many programs and assistance in finding work, that and the unemployment in general have been about as low as it can go for ages now.
Not really sure what else nicety/support that can be done at this rate :(
Lysek8@reddit
Treating them like humans and as a positive impact does wonders. If the prime minister says publicly that it's something good instead of just blaming everything on them as a smokescreen like other countries do, it does wonders for the public opinion, which in turn helps how locals treat them and helps assimilation
nilslorand@reddit
Yup, it's like a spiral of positivity, do one good thing, many good things follow. I really wonder why we don't do this in europe on a larger scale.
Lysek8@reddit
Demagogia. Europe is doing a lot of things wrong and the scapegoat right now it's immigrants. It's easy to pick on them
badablahblah@reddit
As someone who crash landed in Spain randomly after seeking a job in Europe and ended up staying - it's not an attractive country to emmigrate to if you're an educated young professional. Sanchez is right that they need us though. They need foreign middle managers telling them how to pull their heads out of their asses. The few professional immigrants I've seen hired in immediately try to get out to other European countries.
There are very real internal issues that need to be addressed to make this place attractive. The Spanish are incapable of confronting anything about themselves head-on. They can barely admit they were a dictatorship for decades and prefer to just "forget" without confronting the resulting systemic problems.
It's just too old school to really be a place you seriously consider immigrating to unless you're already wealthy/working remotely, or only plan to stay a few years for a laugh.
namitynamenamey@reddit
Spanish management culture is a disaster, treating talent as disposable, interchangeable cogs and upper management as the only real people in the companies. Which sure, their money their rules, but it causes a complete lack of vertical integration and stakeholding, which is not a workable model when your workforce has european-level salaries and takes decades to train!
And then the spaniards wonder why they are not competitive...
sam0sara@reddit
Would you mind broadly sharing the circumstances around your comment? As someone who had the Balearic Islands as a faint dream to move to, I'd be curious what brought you to Spain, where roughly, and in which industries you've gained your insights.
badablahblah@reddit
Software development for a multinational company with a very, very Spanish office. What brought me here was that I happened to land a job. I was a typical non-EU immigrant looking for a salary in Euros, no dream to live in Spain prior to coming here, knew very little about it prior to arriving. Would have gone to any other EU country had there been an opportunity. To live here long term you need to really, really want to live here. Country does not cater to non-Spanish speakers.
Your milleage may vary if your home country has a lot of expats here that allow you to find pre-existing communities to be part of. Your sustained employment as an immigrant might be tied to whatever multinationals operate here as breaking into Spanish based companies is difficult.
Blundetto26@reddit
So... you're mad with the country you were living in because you had to learn the language they talk?
perculaessss@reddit
...And this is why us Spaniards are not exactly thrilled with the new expats wave. The entitlement is crazy. How dare you not speak English and give an inmediate 6 figures salary to the genius expat??
That being said, is true the business culture here is utter trash and straight up in the 80s. Is improving though.
sam0sara@reddit
I'd like to read about your experiences. In what way is it still in the 80s, and where/ how did you notice improvement?
IVIaedhros@reddit
I can echo the complaknts as I had a similar experience.
The issue is not needing to learn a new language or culture, the issue is how comparatively difficult is it for you to do anything in life before you achieve "full" assimilation in language, culture, and in government documentation.
For example, I immigrated to Spain for education and had EU classmates. Even those that had business level Spanish at the outset remarked at how difficult it could be to get anything done, become friends with the natives, etc.
In my observation, this is a combination of: 1. Lack of professional opportunities for anyone below senior level 2. A truly terrible bureaucracy that combines the worst of high corruption, informal ones with annoyingly strict and incorruptible ones 3. A large amount of regional clannish behavior and dialect differences
Beast_Warrior@reddit
If Spain is anything like Portugal, breaking into local companies is difficult and the small business environment is unfriendly because our people keep everything between family and friends. People who are inside the network, as long as they stay neutral and don't upset others, ride a professional life that is lighter on performance demand until retirement.
betweentwoblueclouds@reddit
I’ve been living in Spain for +10 years and I have never heard a truer statement.
cloud_t@reddit
Exactly the same for Portugal. Point by point.
leto78@reddit
This is just virtue signalling. Sánchez knows that most of its immigrants will come from Latin America, and they will impose rules to make sure that any new policy will only target those immigrants. In the last decades, there has been a steady immigration from Latin America without major problems. On the other hand, the African migrants have been a huge source of problems, not only in terms of integration but also in security issues, with known terrorist groups operating in Spain.
StPauliPirate@reddit
Sanchez is dick riding islamists and anti-semites for a while now. I wouldn‘t be so sure. Europe has a lot of socialists with a weird islamic migration fetish
DryUniversity5439@reddit
A racist turk in germany.How original
Mo4d93@reddit
Spain is overwhelmingly pro Palestine (every single poll prove that). I've seen more Palestinian flags in Bilbao than anywhere else.
Are they all anti semite to you?
StPauliPirate@reddit
Yes. If you side with islamists, you are also a anti-semitic islamist supporting sharia
Mo4d93@reddit
Ah yeah, all those Palestinian christians are islamists too.
StPauliPirate@reddit
I bet they have a fullfilling life under hamas
Adventurous_Pea_1156@reddit
Its always german people being so overzealous when speaking about Israel, they might be compensating for something they've done in the past?
StPauliPirate@reddit
I‘m a turk😘 not one of those naive westerners falling for arab propaganda & lies
Blundetto26@reddit
Spanish here. This is spot on.
drax2024@reddit
It took Spain over 760 years to liberate them selves from North African Muslim rule only to freely allow an invasion from North Africa now. A country should be able to choose the immigrants they want.
LaVeritay@reddit
Cry me a river
Lysek8@reddit
They just did dumbass. He's the democratically elected prime minister, not your Nazi grandpa rambling about foreigners. That means that he's representing the will of the people and whether people change their minds or not that will be seen in the next election
Antique_Cricket_4087@reddit
Try to contribute to the conversation without sounding like a AfD founding member. Deal?
Numantinas@reddit
Those aren't the immigrants being talked about
albertcn@reddit
This is just populist bulshit, they are bringing every southsaharian immigrant into Europe they can in order to destroy the society as we know in order to perpetuate themselves in power. Why don’t they increase immigration of professionals from Latin america? From people that speak the same language and have the same religion? Because none of us will vote for them, that’s it.
See how is Sweden doing with their immigration utopia, or France, have you seen marseille, that’s a lost city.
Joseph20102011@reddit
Spain should bet into attracting highly-skilled Asian migrants like Chinese, Indians, and Filipinos instead of Mexicans and Central Americans who aren't fond of Spain and opt to move into the US by bare foot.
The Spanish government led by Pedro Sánchez should pressure its Filipino counterpart, Bongbong Marcos, to amend the Philippine constitution to reinstate compulsory teaching of Spanish in the early grade school levels and permit Spanish citizens to become 100% equity owners of Philippine corporations and private residential lands.
poltrudes@reddit
Good idea
aKV2isSTARINGatYou@reddit
Never happening lol
Lysek8@reddit
Some people here forget that Spain by nature is a multicultural country. We're not scared of diversity (most of us anyway) like other countries in the north, because we ourselves are diverse. We're so mixed that you can't even really pinpoint what is true Spanish pure blood (and that probably doesn't even exist)
Once you realize we're all humans it makes everything easier, and it changes the topic from a race, cultural war into an economic, political issue, which can be fixed. In other places they simply think that they're better than others and this is why it's so hard for them to integrate with the newcomers
IllustriousCaramel66@reddit
You have Spanish speaking countries to immigrate to Spain from, so that’s a huge advantage many other countries don’t have, so integrating would be easier.
On the other hand- Latin america also having a demographic crisis like Spain has, so with 1 child per woman, bringing immigrants won’t really help, as you will need 50% of the new generation to be immigrants just to keep the society stable… And this rate of immigration is not sustainable….
Every generation now in Spain is half the size of the previous generation, if it continues this way, native Spaniards would go extinct… (the current generation is half the size of a working age generation, and the next generation afterwards would be just 25% of the current generation…a 75% drop in 2 generations is not something immigrants can solve)
Lysek8@reddit
A massive population is Romanian and Moroccan so what you're saying is a half truth
There's no such thing as native Spaniards. That's my point
IllustriousCaramel66@reddit
A. Im talking about future immigrants B. Maybe genetically you guys are mixed, but there are still the people who lived there for generations and are native culturally…
happybaby00@reddit
Yikes racial purity and ethonationalism, typical supremacist thoughts from those of your "country"
IllustriousCaramel66@reddit
Whats bad about believing cultures should preserve themselves? I said nothing about racial purity. I want Japan to stay Japan, Morocco to stay Moroccan and Spain to stay Spanish…if you think that difference in culture and language doesn’t enrich our shared experience in this planet and believe we all should just mixed, thats your opinion, but to call anyone who sees it differently a racist is disingenuous at best.
Grand_Ad_864@reddit
Spain literally has a youth unemployment rate of 25%. Somehow low-wage immigration will fix this? Glad to see Canada isn't the only country that is dumb enough to actually believe these lies.
OverlappingChatter@reddit
Anything said yesterday is going to be straight "Spain is awesome! Go Spain!" National day propaganda bullshit. Three days ago we were lamenting the collapse of the Canary islands and had no answer to the massive immigrant groups that are showing up there.
What exactly are immigrants going to do to help Spain? Unemployment is already ridiculous and a huge portion of the jobs are absolute shit. Shit hours and shit pay catering to the tourist industry.
Maybe Sanchez expects the immigrants to set up some huge, new industries? Maybe he should do things to help keep the industries he already has wanting to stay in Spain.
jmsy1@reddit
unfortunately, this is going to lead to a VOX government. the public doesn't understand demographics, production, or basic economics. they understand people that don't assimilate.
BiluochunLvcha@reddit
canada would like to have a word.... instead pay your lower paid workers better. it's a crazy idea, but it just might work! (but go ahead and do the opposite and see how that pans out.)
alonlankri@reddit
Since Spain is pandering to Hamas they should take in their supporters in the Arab world. A few million Jihadis would do wonders for their economy.
FreeMadrid
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