Manager is making the entire team miserable.
Posted by cuntsalt@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 80 comments
I'm an IC with the most tenure on the team and have a good working relationship with peers, so people complain and vent at me a fair amount. I'm not exaggerating that the entire team is miserable.
Specifics:
- Excessively detail-oriented, combing over work, nitpicky feedback consistently (all stuff like variable naming, clever code single-liners, etc.). Often comments on draft PRs; once got a random comment on a commit I'd just pushed.
- Any problems are your problem, in very corporate-polite speech. There is no initiative to help, support, motivate, etc. Problems often show up later as dings in your annual review. I also have not had a good experience surfacing challenges: sometimes I get irrelevant responses, sometimes it results in combing over my workweek in detail ("why did you work on this on this particular day?" sort of thing), it has not been productive.
- Five of nine teammates have used words/phrases such as feeling "personally targeted" by this person and afraid for their jobs due to the above. We lost a person a month ago and they cited these specifics as reasons for leaving. Four of nine teammates are actively looking to jump ship.
- Not technically great despite prior engineering experience. They have no technical suggestions/improvements in code reviews. Their architectural decision-making is equally poor -- they've instituted bizarre, twelve-step manual, time-consuming procedures for dependency updates. They don't seem to trust developer work and require excruciatingly lengthy explanations, anything less is overridden/ignored, but the detailed explanations pretty much just get an "oh ok! đź‘Ť"
- They've never asked for feedback or my perspective of them as a manager, and my "vibe check" of the situation is that unsolicited feedback would be poorly received. Frankly, also, I'm not comfortable speaking on a "real" level with them.
The standard-fare answer is to jump ship. I am one of the four searching, but it hasn't been fruitful. However this job seems sort of salvageable if not for this manager, and I'm willing to throw myself on a grenade and risk backlash, so long as it's actually productive to do so.
Thoughts? Is there an "appropriate" approach for letting my skip know how poorly things are going?
yogibear47@reddit
Talking to skip is a good idea. Frame everything in terms of specific examples and specific business outcomes rather than behaviors. If skip wants your opinion on what behaviors led to these outcomes then feel free to share, if not no worries. Don’t mention retention or anything like that.
Beneficial_Map6129@reddit
Is your manager from Amazon? And is he trying to get some of "his men" into the company?
ImSoCul@reddit
WELL...
I was going to basically suggest that if the current situation is worse than a fairly high likelihood of (hopefully temporarily) not having a job, then go for it. Sounds like that's not a great value proposition here. Going to your skip is basically same as snitching on your parents by going to your grandparents. Maybe you're a favorite grandchild and they'll listen, but odds are much higher that you're going to get your ass beat when you go home.
Work culture is rarely about absolute truths, it's about power dynamics and who gets along with who. Odds are high that your manager is closer and spends a lot more time with their skip than you do, unless your manager is fairly new or you have a very flat hierarchy. Yes, finding a new team/job is hard. But odds are fighting a political battle against someone higher up than you is likely going to be harder (to do successfully). I have seen cases where a middle manager gets tossed, but this was because skip was already not getting along with them and they received multiple complaints from different people.
Most of your complaints are focused around how they're doing things. I don't think they should be this involved with code in the first place. I've been through half a dozen managers and all the good ones never read code, at most they might ask for a quick walkthrough to understand the high level, but they'll never be reviewing specific lines of code or variable names etc.
box_of_hornets@reddit
In my experience, my skip levels are extremely enthusiastic to hear their grand-reports opinions on their reports. They only hear one side of stories from their reports, so feedback is very desirable.
If there is a situation where a single report is causing an issue that would cause multiple employees to want to leave, the skip level would absolutely want to be aware of that. Employees leaving a company is a net loss to a company in both output and financial terms. From a selfish point of view, the skip level wants to have high retention under them to make their lives easier and their stats better.
For that reason I would always raise concerns to a skip level, particularly if you have corroborated your experience with others and are able to point at specific examples.
I would also, at the same time, plan to leave and make inroads doing so, because all the concerns in the post I'm replying to still exist as possibilities so if you don't see a positive response to raising your concerns (or worse, you see a negative effect) you're ahead of the game getting out of there
anonymous_drone@reddit
I like this take!
I think I would cautiously consider the path of talking to the skip level - but I would start by learning about them, trying to get a sense of how receptive they will be. If there is a way to interact casually, do that. Maybe ask a few questions, "I've been thinking about our code review process, would be interested to hear your thoughts on code reviews. What things should they catch? Are there things that are just to nitpicky to be productive? Do you think they they work better as management oversight, or peers collaborating on a shared codebase?"
I think I'd get a sense pretty quickly - do they want to, or have time to, deal with issues at this level? Do you think they would be likely to agree or disagree? Best case scenario - they would ask some questions back like, "curious why you that's on your mind", and soon it "organically" comes up that your team is not thriving and this is a central issue.
I think marching into your skip with a list of complaints is not likely to get a good outcome. If the skip is really strong, it might work...but it might also just damage your reputation.
ThigleBeagleMingle@reddit
Extremely enthusiastic to hear is how you promote morale. Doing something is another topics
Never underestimate the boss’ ability to destroy you. They regularly meet with your skip and fully control the narrative.
The skip also has minimal incentive to replace your boss. Things have to be really, really bad to justify rocking that boat.
ImSoCul@reddit
that's a good perspective. I will caution a bit around the "Employees leaving a company is a net loss to a company" thinking- most employees don't actually have that big of tablestakes in how the company as a whole performs and are more interested in either "I like working with so and so" or "this person is a huge thorn in my butt" (which you do kind of address with the next sentence about lives easier).
Raising concerns to skip is okay if they're good at filtering information (e.g. it's not easy to trace this back to you). I tend to look at this in terms of "rocking the boat"- most feedback I will either share directly with people if I feel they are mature enough to use that feedback constructively, or I will bite my tongue. If I don't think they will be receptive then they will doubly be unreceptive if it feels like parental discipline- at this point it becomes a "can we get this person removed" exercise.
PaxUnDomus@reddit
When a single dev has a problem with a manager, skip likely doesn't care.
When devs are jumping ship and half the team is looking for opportunities because of that manager, skip very, very much cares.
cuntsalt@reddit (OP)
Appreciate your comment and agreed on all counts, especially about power dynamics -- that has kept me quiet.
Do you think the prior person leaving counts? I am also aware of one other specific situation a teammate elevated to our skip, involving sensitive personal information put into a very public place. I wouldn't be the first in line, but I suspect the breadth is new news.
Somewhat of a sidebar: I really like my team, fantastic bunch of people. We were productive and well-oiled with good camaraderie. Then the management external hire occurred, and... welp. Most aspects of this company are highly tolerable and the team elevates it to solidly good. I've been here six years and I could stay double that if not for the wave of "people quit managers" thing brewing. Probably not really relevant, just a very big sighing lament.
ThlintoRatscar@reddit
To pile on in a direct answer to the good advice already given, note that you don't need immediate action to be effective at this.
Find opportunities to hang out with your skip and wait for them to ask you how things are going.
Use that question to guide your skip into looking deeper at the team dynamics and where the value lies.
If you're just whinging at having to actually deliver value, then you'll get a pat on the head and sent on your way.
If you're right that the manager is dragging down the performance, then be prepared to step into that role.
At the end of the day though, if you're gonna come for the King, you have to kill the King.
Which means that you are literally agitating to get your boss fired, and mutiny is a high-stakes game.
ImSoCul@reddit
it's hard to know since I don't have any firsthand information, best I can do is try to lay out a framework for how to think about the problem.
It counts as supporting evidence, but the 80% here is how your skip thinks about your manager. If they don't like your manager or are concerned they're not performing well, then any supporting data is strong. If they like your manager, then even a huge list of supporting data points probably won't skew them.
When you say "external hire" do you mean the team has been long established and manager is a recent hire? If your manager is fairly new, that may fall into the exception case where you may have more rapport or political power and it might be worth pursuing what is effectively a coup. If skip seems multiple reports that a previously high functioning team (you have to be objective here and not let personal bias skew your perception) is degrading, then they may find it worthwhile to try to fix a management issue.
6 years is a good run at a company (I'm coming up on 6 years at my current role), and it doesn't hurt to try to find something new too, irrespective of how current situation is.
p_bzn@reddit
Fighting you manager / boss won’t result in anything good for you in 90% of cases.
I tried it many times, and come up with conclusion — it doesn’t worth it. Even if you win short term you lose long term. Skip level, easily, may go gym together with your manager and be on a good terms with them.
The only alternative you have is to build a good relation with your manager. It does suck big time, but that is the game.
MangoTamer@reddit
Just want to check something. Oracle?
BloodSpawnDevil@reddit
Lots of advice here telling you what to do...
Take a step back:
Your teammates are using you as their emotional punching bag. Why is there so much gossip like this in your group? It's toxic. Why can't THEY set boundaries.
Unless you like to be the center of gossip YOU should set boundaries so this isn't taxing you and influencing you heavily. I personally will listen occasionally because sometimes good people really do need advice and they're hurting. Often it's truly just a gossiping person who actually gets along fine day to day.
People often don't mean what they say and will take no action and will let you stick your neck out and give you no support if it comes down to that... who are you helping? What is your tolerance for losing your job for being perceived the gossip queen and waiting until official meetings instead of handling it immediately to make a move? I've seen people get fired for being moved by someone ranting and doing something about it as the ranter keeps his job. These people aren't your friends but they are potentially vampires.
People complain about his nits on PRs? That's is not a big deal and I would laugh at you and on top of that bad variable naming and clever code is a problem that affects readability of code. Simplicity and readability and common idioms should be embraced.
Sounds like he's not doing a deep dive which he shouldn't be doing as a manager and doing a shallow once over and offering his view. That doesn't seem like a big deal. You complain both about him reviewing and not reviewing enough. Which is it?
So why isn't the other half of your team complaining? Are they bottom of the barrel and don't care or are they competent and not complaining?
Since they never asked for your feedback you're going to skip level? Maybe he's just confident. Nothing you said sounds very bad at all.
Management often comes up with bad process... the team should push back and not just you if it's a problem.
Sounds like you assume this guy is a bad manager without even giving him a chance with your vibe check.
Bad management in my experience actually does the following:
From the sounds of it maybe he does one or two of these? If so, then after a tolerance check for unemployment and thinking for yourself without influence for a while you should give him some feedback without making a big deal of it unless it is a big deal.
cuntsalt@reddit (OP)
Good perspective and good take. I feel sort of responsible in a way I shouldn't -- like the tenure obligates me to act in a leadership capacity that isn't actually my responsibility and will get me in trouble.
And it is very, very possible I just don't jive with this person's management style -- I know I prefer generally hands-off management that steps in when requested, and the level/type of involvement comes across as having to sit on the reading carpet in kindergarten. Which, while annoying, isn't anything actually actionable.
Per your bad management list -- I don't think my manager meets the full criteria. This, in my mind, falls more in line with low levels of competence versus malice. They aren't yelling at us or belittling us, just -- not doing the things they should be doing as a manager, in my mind, while over-focusing on very small details.
Thank you for responding.
darkslide3000@reddit
I would always seek a personal chat before putting stuff in writing for things like this. Putting negative feedback into their performance evaluation is the nuclear option, doing that means going to war. And even if you want to go that hard on this manager (basically deciding that at the end of this only one of you two will be left standing), you should still approach the topic softly with your skip first because they're the ones who will have to deal with that feedback when they do your manager's evaluation, and nobody likes to be surprised by shit like this out of nowhere. Even if they will be on your side and work with you to give this guy the boot, they'll likely want to coordinate that first (maybe even massage the review draft together with you to make sure it says the right things to whoever else will be involved in that process once it is kicked off) rather than get blindsided by it.
So do discuss this with your skip level in a private meeting first, approach the subject very carefully and try to gauge their reaction while you speak. If they don't seem open to this at all and signal that they're not interested in criticism to "their" management team, you probably have nothing to gain from pushing the issue further and may still be able to back out without your manager ever hearing about it. And if they do seem open, you can start getting more concrete about plotting ways to remove that guy from the team.
cuntsalt@reddit (OP)
Thank you, this is really good advice. I was not really sure about which approach to take and in what order. I remain unconvinced and certainly won't be jumping into any action next week, but this is a very good path forward that gives everyone adequate chance to make things right.
KickAssWilson@reddit
Do not, under any circumstances, tell any manager that four people in the group are looking. I would bet if the wrong person found that out, there would be swift retribution, legal or not. Speak for yourself, let the others speak for themselves. You don’t want to accidentally throw teammates under the bus.
cuntsalt@reddit (OP)
Thank you, I appreciate the good reminder stated frankly.
iamiamwhoami@reddit
This isn't categorically good advice. My manager would very much like to know if people are flight risks and if there was anything they could do to prevent that, but that's assuming you have a manager that's open to improving things. Also I'm not sure why you think legal retribution is a possibility. Who would have legal liability in this situation?
KickAssWilson@reddit
I can’t believe anyone would think it’s a good idea to be an informant to their boss about people who were thinking of leaving. You might think it’s helpful, but it only marks you as untrustworthy in everyone’s eyes.
And what if you’re wrong? You can really mess up someone’s career in the wrong circumstances.
The company would have legal liability if the manager exacted revenge, but in the time it would take for anything to happen legally, the affected people’s lives would be a mess.
A good manager wouldn’t be in this situation in the first place, because they would be meeting with people often enough to know how they were doing. If people are intending to leave in spite of who their manager is, then the company has a bigger problem.
Bottom line, don’t be a snitch. Word will get around about who said what (it always does) and you’ll be branded as an untrustworthy.
quietseditionist@reddit
Director level here. In my organization, I would absolutely appreciate this kind of feedback. But we have a strong open culture; I doubt things would get this bad without me knowing, but if they did I would definitely want to know about it and coach. You don't need to betray your mates to let your skip know that there's a problem.
Despite that, it sounds like you have cultural issues and you really should keep your eyes open for opportunity.
KickAssWilson@reddit
There’s a difference about how subordinates deal with each other and upper management. As you said upper management has to have that pulse to be effective.
I’m long past places like op is talking about. Open culture makes a huge difference; not everyone has found that.
iamiamwhoami@reddit
If your staff+ that's part of your job or some other form of IC leadership. You don't have the luxury of saying you're just a regular dev. You're in a leadership position, and you have to take on leadership responsibilities.
KickAssWilson@reddit
It’s up to individuals to give that feedback, not one person saying what all their coworkers are doing.
iamiamwhoami@reddit
You're not being an informant. You're apprising your manager of possible team issues, which is part of your job as IC leadership. Honestly if that's your position on the team and you do nothing you're actually negligent in your responsibilities. As another commenter said you shouldn't say "X is leaving". You should say "people on the team that are frustrated, bored, concerned, etc..."
I'm actually surprised in a sub full of experienced devs, this is something people haven't had to deal with before. I've had to deal with it multiple times. Every time I've brought it up it improved the situation.
BonnetSlurps@reddit
Your manager might like to know that that, but your co-workers would appreciate the privacy and the chance to bring it up themselves.
Why make the life of the people you work with more difficult?
iamiamwhoami@reddit
My point is you're not necessarily making the life of your coworkers more difficult. You can actually be making them better. Above poster does not know OP's management chain well enough to say that's the case. I've worked in plenty of teams where if manager found out people were thinking of leaving that would be a major moment of self reflection for them, and they would do their best to change to address their concerns. My experience runs directly counter to what above poster is saying.
BonnetSlurps@reddit
The problem is that private career conversations are private. Someone should be free to decide what and when to tell a manager.
The other problem is that not every manager is understanding, so it is a gamble. But no a gamble where you reap the consequences: it is a gamble that you're making on other people's behalf.
Material-Resource-19@reddit
I’ve been the principal IC and the manager, and there’s a coded way to this.
“There are people on the team that are frustrated, bored, concerned,”
As a manager, I know that’s code for “someone’s looking” and I know I need to do some morale repair. As a senior IC, when I say that to a manager with strong EQ, they take the hint. When a manager with little EQ or experience says, “who?”, I say I’m not going to betray the confidence of my colleagues, but in the interest of the company, I’m telling you that something is wrong and even if I heard it from just two people, there’s probably more. This is a systemic problem, not a person problem.
iamiamwhoami@reddit
Yeah that's how I would bring it up myself. I wouldn't say "X is looking". My point is that's not the advice above poster was giving. It sounded like they were saying "Don't bring it up in any form. Because you are guaranteed to bring retribution on to the rest of your team."
That's not good advice.
alinroc@reddit
They didn’t mean legal action (lawsuit, whatever). They meant there would be retribution and it doesn’t matter if the actions violated employment law or not.
iamiamwhoami@reddit
Okay that's always a possibility, but it's not categorically good advice. It depends on the people in OP's management chain, and the above poster doesn't know them well enough to say that.
Brought2UByAdderall@reddit
You don't even have to though. You can just say "Nobody's said anything directly to me, but we know why the one dev left and I think we're at risk of losing more people because I'm hearing the exact same notes on this guy from over half the team."
This is a really bad situation. Nobody wants to have to replace half a team over poor social skills, fragile ego, and micro-management. It's important that risk gets across.
tapu_buoy@reddit
I have faced similar kind of battls with higher ups, and maybe only our luck can defeat them.
I have only one (or few) questions. - Are you from or the job is in the USA? - Is the manager also from the USA?
My sample size is mostly Indians, and Indian managers, in general, there can be many great excptions, behave way more toxic and condenscending. Hence I want to understand is that based on the what kind of culture a person (whoc becomes manager) comes from? Or is it universal?
I have found it hard to have someone who would actually back one, trust and present one's work to the other teams with confidence.
Especially in the year 2023, I have realised that it is all "Investor's world"!!! If they feel panicked, the upper management / C-Suite would make the managers speak more rudely and that propagates down to ICs, who can-not or do-not have sub-ordinates to pass the blame on.
I want to figure out how can I avoid this cycle/pattern. Maybe opening/initialising my own business might be the only way.
felfott@reddit
Are they Indian?
proservllc@reddit
The list reads like a series of unsubstantiated complaints or hearsays from a disgruntled employee. Make it real with any framework that you fancy, like coin. It's hard to dismiss the well laid out sequence of the context, observations, impact (mostly on you, let the rest speak for themselves, unless you're explicitly delegated by them) and needed actions.
gomihako_@reddit
I disagree. Any complaint coming from an IC directed at their EM should be taken into consideration by the EM, it means something.
In the case of nitpicky BS, it could be because the EM has no style guideline doc or not properly explained why they are nitpicky. The EM should be communicating the why behind everything to ICs. An EM should be able to communicate the rationale for any action and decision.
EMs that cannot communicate expectations should not be in management.
reddit-poweruser@reddit
Why is an engineering manager doing code reviews, having a styleguide, or being nitpicky about code related things, is my question. That should be the job of architects or tech leads..
Southern-Ask241@reddit
Small, lean organizations don't necessarily have both, they have one.
maigpy@reddit
please don't use the word lean. it's cringeworthy.
gomihako_@reddit
I have to do both 🤷
cuntsalt@reddit (OP)
The actual detailed draft for the review contains specifics including links to occurrences. If a review is the route I take, I'll rework it to fit a framework. That is an excellent suggestion, thank you.
zwermp@reddit
Do you have a 1:1 with the EM? If so, why are you not talking to them about this stuff and instead resorting to skip levels and 360 feedback.
gfivksiausuwjtjtnv@reddit
Because the EM is clearly a fuckwit and OP will be summarily spartan-kicked out of the company
zwermp@reddit
Probably a fuckwit but it's worth nuancing some constructive feedback prior to skipping a level. If I'm the EM's manager, the first thing I'm asking is whether they've had a convo on it.
maigpy@reddit
not at all. did you read the post?
reddit-poweruser@reddit
If there's fear of the EM taking it harshly, the EM's manager should be more concerned about the major issues that are occurring here over whether a direct report felt comfortable providing this kind of feedback to the EM, imo.
cuntsalt@reddit (OP)
Yes, this one. In addition to retaliatory fears, I don't know how to phrase "morale is a shambling zombie, and here is a detailed list of specifics relevant to you." That is a very delicate conversation and I lack the verbal finesse.
lab-gone-wrong@reddit
Oh honey, if you think saying this to the EM's face ends badly, wait until you drag a Director into it
GoatOfUnflappability@reddit
I downvoted because of "oh honey." I think it's patronizing, which I think is unhelpful to this discussion.
DIY_GUY84@reddit
Line managers are evaluated on if their team is delivering and no one is quitting. Going over his head is risky since you lack data on his relationship with his skip. The criticisms are too vague anyways. Your least risky form of revenge is requesting an internal transfer to his skip, keep the criticism at a minimum.
gravity_kills_u@reddit
I am in a similar situation. All of the venting is stressing me out to be honest. I tried bringing it up a few times to the manager in question, only to be pumped for information about who said what and then gaslit heavily. As the team lead I have a huge target on me and am in the way of this micromanaging person. No need to give him more ammunition for retaliation. I plan to gtfo before becoming the next victim of the quarterly layoff cycle.
clipd_dead_stop_fall@reddit
So you have some options 1. Provide feedback to your manager directly
Provide feedback in your skip rank 1:1
Provide feedback to HR
Wait for review time
Leave
Alot of what I'm going to say depends on corporate culture, but I'm also coming at this with 20+ years as an engineer IC and nearly 5 as a manager. I also have the benefit of hindsight from 15 jobs and those managers. I take the bad stuff I experienced and vow never to repeat it, and focus on things I saw that I liked.
If your manager has recently moved to leadership from being a technical IC, this is a really difficult transition. I had a hell of a time leaving tech, and still miss it, but I have figured out how to scratch that itch in a different way.
I received a review once as an IC where I was dinged for something I did three months prior, and my manger couldn't tell me what it was I did wrong. The lack of direct feedback explaining what I did wrong with enough time to correct it was frustrating as hell. I never do this to my ICs or the leadership above me.
Feedback should be timely. If there is a problem now, address it now.
Feedback should be actionable. Provide ideas that they can consider as a starting point, otherwise all you're doing is complaining.
Make the conversation about the behavior, not the person. Here's what I'm seeing and the result. Avoid the word "you" here.
Make it crystal clear that you're providing this feedback to them first so they can course correct before their review and prevent further IC losses, which is a bad look. It's alot easier to digest hard conversations when they're stated as trying to help someone succeed.
Suggest that they use part of their 1:1s to ask ICs what they should start doing, stop doing, or do differently.
Make sure they understand the why. You're trying to help your manager look better and build trust, not tear them down. Use the word "we" here.
I do these things all the time with my ICs and my managers. We've even had these tough conversations with our execs. If you don't fully trust your manager, write it all up. Present the info to them verbally, but save the written for a skip meeting and/or HR if there's blowback. I've done this too.
Brought2UByAdderall@reddit
This guy exhibits all the characteristics of having an ego of glass. I would not attempt to talk to him directly after previous vibe checks on receiving feedback failed.
QuaratinedQuail@reddit
When providing feedback like this you must avoid generalizations. Use observations. Why? Generalizations make people defensive and are not easily believed. Your generalizations could be wrong. I could have a different generalization from a situation we both saw.
State specific situations that occurred. Use facts, not generalizations. Then describe the impact of those situations.
"Often comments on draft prs" if you show me that as a skip it isn't helpful.
But just find a different job lol
BonnetSlurps@reddit
I find the opposite: managers not liking observations. Last time I witnessed a fellow manager bringing concrete examples she was accused of cherry-picking.
QuaratinedQuail@reddit
I don't follow the logic. Cherry-picking problematic actions that led to negative impacts?
"In the stakeholder meeting on Friday, you were not prepared to run the meeting. Your slides were not up to date and you didn't have up to date information. The impact of that was the stakeholders didn't have the information they expected from you. That led to delays in their workflows and now our overall project is delayed."
"You're cherry picking!"
This is a concrete fact based example of you not meeting expectations.
BonnetSlurps@reddit
I also don't understand the logic, however maybe the problem is that there was no logic involved at all. Maybe it was a purely emotional response from the C-Level in my story.
I agree with you, by the way. Showing facts and documentation should be ideal, but lots of managers don't like to hear about things that makes their lives harder.
StTheo@reddit
The mature thing to do is talk with them or find a different job. But the job market sucks, and it does sound like they won’t listen anyways. If you want/need to go the less mature, more underhanded approach, maybe go over their head. Find ways to begin reaching out to their immediate superiors. They clearly have a lot of free time, so maybe the easiest objective would be to get them more responsibilities. If you don’t think the criticism will be well met, you could take a roundabout approach (stolen from Yes Prime Minister):
(I’m 50% joking with all that)
BeenThere11@reddit
Do tell the skip everything you wrote. Everything.
kittysempai-meowmeow@reddit
I would try to get a read on the skip first. If they are a "good" skip, they will care. If they aren't, then it's pointless and net negative. I've had both good and bad skips so it's important to figure out which they are before sticking one's neck out, and I say this as someone who is generally very loud about stuff like this and recently went to skip about someone who is net negative influence on our team (not our manager) not to get them fired, but hopefully swapped for someone more suited for the role (their "issues" would be less problematic on a UI driven team but they are worse than useless on a platform team and are killing morale of the people actually doing the work). Manager knows, agrees, and has also talked to skip about it - I went to skip about it also because I wanted him to hear it from more than one source.
leftsaidtim@reddit
Yes this is the way. Nothing gets a director of engineering more bothered than realizing that they have a problematic EM that is costing them time and money.
JoeBidensLongFart@reddit
And make sure to emphasize how the manager is costing the company money. Such as "spent the entire day responding to micromanager's PR feedback, spent the next day writing out the detailed justification required by micromanager, spent next day in redundant meetings as ordered by micromanager, deliverable to client is 3 days late due to having to spend time on these issues instead of working on client work".
Complaining to higher ups that the manager is strict and makes your workday unpleasant doesn't usually get you very far. Phrasing those complaints as how the manager is harming the company and costing extra time/money is more likely to interest higher up executives.
rjm101@reddit
Ask for skip level catch-ups with your managers manager.
kazabodoo@reddit
I had a manager like that in the past and decided to leave, without having a job aligned. Had a bit of savings to last about 3 months and prepping and interviewing was so much less stressful compared to if I had to do it while working with a tool like that.
Not saying you should do that, but this is what I did and it worked well for me.
bwainfweeze@reddit
I have never, ever, had a manager participate in a code review.
Ever.
He’s too busy overstepping on his reports to get the problems you guys are finding solved. Push him on that. Or push him off a bridge. Commenting on code reviews? What the fuck. You’re not a coder anymore dude, put on your big boy pants and manage.
BertRenolds@reddit
It's easier to find a new job than a new manager. Keep your head down and head out or transfer teams.
brainhack3r@reddit
I had a similar situation to this, quit, and turns out like 1.5-2 months later my manager was fired or quit.
His status update makes it seem like he was fired.
I wish I would have brought it up if I was just going to quit anyway...
RockleyBob@reddit
Is it though?
My company recently off-shored anyone under senior pay grade and I'm currently interviewing. Looking for work in a depressed job market with the holidays looming isn't fun.
It's not that you're wrong or that this is bad advice necessarily. Sometimes as employees we get accustomed to dysfunction and conflict and we lose perspective. I just think it's a little dismissive to copy/paste the same rote answer when OP preemptively addressed that possibility. Sometimes a popular but unhelpful answer shoots to a lofty perch above the discussion. From there it lords over the other answers and sucks the air out of the room. They know leaving might be the best course of action. Despite that, they clearly spent a good amount of time thoughtfully explaining their situation and they are seeking feedback about plan B.
hermesfelipe@reddit
Well put. “Toxic outlier” being the key, OP should be able to tell whether this is the case or not. If it’s a wide spread cultural thing, jump ship. Talk to the skip manager if not.
RockleyBob, I wish I could write like that. You should write a book.
iceyone444@reddit
Managers are unlikely to change or welcome feedback and can react poorly to negative feedback and seek retribution.
Managers like this don't have the skills or emotional intelligence to manage people and should not be in charge of anyone - they are micro managers, awful to work for and create so many issues.
You could talk to their skip - I've done it and it didn't go well as I was blamed for all the issues and managed out.
Turn over was awful and none of the issues ever got fixed - the manager is still there and causing issues/turn over.
The version you see is not the version their boss/higher ups see and their skip may discount or ignore the feedback.
NiteShdw@reddit
A good manager will accept feedback on where they are falling short and be willing to make changes. A bad manager has an ego and pridefully won't take feedback.
My suggestion is go to your skip with documented issues rather than rumors.
If your skip is good, they'll deal with it.
Last resort is HR.
Source : I've had to do this with a team lead. After I reported the issues to his manager and then to HR, the guy suddenly became a lot easier to work with and it's been great ever since.
casastorta@reddit
It’s apropriate, but have a “backup plan” in case your manager is doing all this under the pressure of management above them. In that case, you’re going to complain about your problems to the root cause of the problems.
RockleyBob@reddit
Some of this hit so close to home. Our manager is the living breathing embodiment of the Peter Principle. They were a decent engineer, so some director figured they'd make a decent engineering manager. They didn't realize that being good at a thing doesn't mean you'd be good at leading people who do that thing.
Me reading this. I think our managers saw the same off-brand TED Talk or something, because mine is an expert at making convincing human facial expressions which might convey concern or interest in the problem being discussed, but then some positivity routine takes over and they generate the same generic vapid response like "this is an opportunity to learn something new". No, it's a problem. It was a problem last month, it remains a problem, and until you address it, we will continue to operate at the same shitty velocity.
another_newAccount_@reddit
Do you have a good rapport with your skip? If so maybe consider mentioning it but only like over drinks or something. Maybe in another 1on1 if you have it scheduled. Definitely don't bring anything up with your manager directly unless you actually like them and get along.
cuntsalt@reddit (OP)
Generally, yes. We're full remote so there are no drinks, but most of our 1:1s consist of cool personal catch-up conversations. I appreciate the idea of a second scheduled discussion, thank you.
basalamader@reddit
Be very careful if you go with this option. Make sure you have really good rapport with the skip or atleast someone in your team does. A friend of mine in my company was in a team where almost the same exact thing was happening and they actually talked to the Staff engineer who reports to the position higher than the skip who which then forced that skip to really look into things. If that hadnt happened, my friend was about to have a mental breakdown and actually one member of their team did.
earlgreyyuzu@reddit
Why not wait for the surveys? If enough people rate the manager poorly, and leadership actually cares about the team, they'll do something about it. If no actions are taken, that's your hint.
gfivksiausuwjtjtnv@reddit
. FWIW i don’t think I’d be able to solve this either , too afraid of skip being aligned with EM and getting fucked over.
requesting a transfer to another team or just jump ship is less risky. it takes a while to move an EM on anyway