Own_Thing_4364@reddit

Okay? Still doesn't make it a genocide.

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Like I said, there are plenty of people saying it. But Zionists like yourself keep splitting hairs like somehow that makes the massacres disappear.

Stop wasting your time on legal arguments and just admit you’re fine with Palestinians being murdered en masse by the IDF.

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Own_Thing_4364@reddit

Like I said, there are plenty of people saying it.

"there are a lot of people that think maybe he doesn’t want to get it. A lot of people think maybe he doesn’t want to know about it. I happen to think that he just doesn’t know what he’s doing, but there are many people that think maybe he doesn’t want to get it. He doesn’t want to see what’s really happening. And that could be.”

Now, who does that sound like?

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Chuhaimaster@reddit

Looks like you are running out of steam and just gish galloping at this point.

You need a refresher Hasbara Fellowship to brush up on the reasons why bombing Palestinian and Lebanese children is actually a good thing.

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Own_Thing_4364@reddit

My condolences to your loss of Nasrallah and now Sinwar. I'm sure you'll be in mourning.

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Chuhaimaster@reddit

Of course- that’s the only reason someone would oppose the State of Israel’s laundry list of human rights abuses.

Chuhaimaster@reddit

Hamas’ charter is loopy as fuck. But they are not Nazis with some kind of master plan to eliminate the Jewish people. The main goal is liberating Palestinian land from Israeli occupation. That’s the motivation. They didn’t wake up one morning hating Jews for no reason and wanting to eliminate them from the planet.

And it still does not justify killing thousands of civilians - most of whom weren’t even alive when Hamas was elected in Gaza and had absolutely nothing to do with the drafting of this document.

Equating Hamas with Nazis is just Zionist fear mongering to try and get the rest of the world on board with Israel’s current genocidal project.

The reality is that the Israeli government are the ones holding all the cards - including a tight relationship with the United States that provides seemingly unlimited aid and weapons for whatever massacre their technologically advanced military has in mind.

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Own_Thing_4364@reddit

But they are not Nazis with some kind of master plan to eliminate the Jewish people. The main goal is liberating Palestinian land from Israeli occupation.

The amount of mental gymnastics you had to do to come to that conclusion is impressive.

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I take substantially more stock in their actions than their PR charter. And their actions are not those of a liberation force. If they were, the first step would not be to consistently, for decades, steal international aid from the people they claim to defend

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dummypod@reddit

Yes, humiliating a people, stealing their land and home, arresting their women and children, torturing and raping them, dropping bombs equivalent to tonnage of nukes on civillians is a mark of true democracy and feeedom and they definitely wouldn't lie about that.

Everything Hamas did, Israel has done ten and hundred fold.

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cheeseless@reddit

I love the obviously incorrect claims of scale. How many attacks were made by each side? That matters far more than the effectiveness. If it wasn't for the iron dome, how many Israelis would have died from terrorist attacks with rockets and missiles? Magnitudes more than have ever died at the hands of Israeli military. This is not debatable, by sheer explosive mass there's no way Israel would not have been flattened without its defensive capability.

You don't get credit for failing to kill someone, the attempt is more than enough to condemn you. And Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis have always been the aggressor.

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dummypod@reddit

Yes you're right. Israel is much more effective at killing civillians. Hamas is a bad terrorist, they're can never match Israel.

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cheeseless@reddit

Civilians don't die if there are no military near them. Hamas is making their people into human shields and continuing to attack Israel. If either of those things wasn't happening, Israel wouldn't be causing civilian casualties.

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Israel has the capability to do precise strikes on their enemies, and without sending troops.

Not to the scale required to be effective against Hamas or Hezbollah. There isn't enough high-precision inventory, and not enough of it can even be used without compromising defense capabilities. Precision strikes aren't just expensive, they're straight up rare and very hard to produce weapons for.

They don't need to obliterate 1000 people just to get 10 fighters.

Yeah, that's why they don't. The casualty ratios are still fairly low compared to historical combat data.

Do you think the survivors of these attacks is going to unleash their wrath on Hamas? Or would they join Hamas and unleash said wrath on Israel instead?

Not turning on Hamas makes them idiots who need to be rescued, along with every other person who's held hostage by Hamas, directly or indirectly.

You can condemn Hamas for their terrorism without supporting the excessive Israeli bombing that kills a huge number of civillians.

I condemn Israeli soldiers who've killed civilians without due case, such as the horrible sniper incidents and the cases of close-quarters violence. They're undeniable and unjustifiable, and comparable to the suffering each individual Hamas terrorist inflicts on Palestinians through repression and theft of aid, before they even attack Israel.

attempt to halt aid

Attempt to prevent aid from being stolen and made into weapons by Hamas, Israel has ensured and protected more aid delivery than it has ever blocked by multiple orders of magnitude.

the genocidal statements by government leaders

Oh hey, something that's trivial to agree with. Yes, religious extremists are awful and desperately attempt to seek power and leadership at every turn. Which part of the world has wrested the least control away from religious leaders? That's right, the Islamic part. Pardon me if I think Israel's path in terms of religious extremism is one of alignment with the secular west, just because the data bears it out completely.

the attacks on clearly marked journalists and non-palestinian aid workers

Obviously indefensible shit that has absolutely nothing to do with Israeli military strategy. You're literally using extremist actions to apply to Israel as a whole, in an ironic reversal of your views of Hamas, which you keep covering out of a pretension that Palestinians are in a way better off for their terrorist actions.

If it wasn't for Islamic terrorism against Jews, the Israeli territory would have frozen in '67 and never moved again.

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dummypod@reddit

You can blame the extremists all you want, but that doesn't mean they're noy taking the whole nation on their ride. These extremists are voted into power, riding on the fear of terror that they themselves have caused, directly or indirectly. Extremists said extremist shit, and the military does extremist shit. You can convince yourself with all sorts of excuses you made for them, but I'm not drinking the piss you're drinking.

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Chuhaimaster@reddit

Assuming the WSJ is not just parroting IDF propaganda - that does not mean he was “celebrating” their deaths. Just like the Zionist terrorist groups who helped found Israel did not rejoice when their compatriots died in battle.

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yoguckfourself@reddit

There’s no misinterpreting what he said when every cowardly action of hamas backs his words up. And that’s in the present day. They let their children fight their crusade for them like the psycho terrorists they are.

Published Aug 19.

a three-phase plan first outlined by President Joe Biden on May 31 Seems to me that Hamas want to rely on a proposal from 3 months ago. If that is so...

In that time Israel got an even greater upper hand and were in a better bargaining position. Hamas are losing the war but refuse to surrender, and then want to negotiate as if they are winning.

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vegeful@reddit

The group blamed Netanyahu for “obstructing” a deal from being reached and reiterated its desire to enact a three-phase proposal presented by US President Joe Biden, which would include the release of hostages from Gaza, a “full and complete ceasefire,” and the release of Palestinian prisoners held in Israel. It called on mediators to “compel the occupation to implement” that plan.

Netanyahu shot back, saying Israel will not be “giving in to Hamas’s demand” to end the war in Gaza as a condition of a deal.

“The Prime Minister has strongly insisted on this fundamental demand, which is vital to achieving the goals of the war, and Hamas changed its position,” a statement from his office said Sunday. “The Prime Minister will continue to work on advancing a deal that will maximize the number of living hostages and which will enable the achieving of all of the war objectives.”

At his news conference Monday, Blinken said he could not “speculate on exactly what Hamas’s intentions are,” but expected to learn more in his conversations with Egyptian and Qatari officials on Tuesday.

cnn.com/cnn/2024/08/19/middleeast/blinken-israel-herzog-ceasefire-talks-intl-hnk

Responding late Monday night, however, Hamas official Osama Hamdan told Reuters that Blinken’s comments regarding Netanyahu’s acceptance of an updated US proposal “raises many ambiguities” because it’s “not what was presented to us, nor what we agreed on.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/confirming-netanyahu-accepts-us-deal-proposal-blinken-says-hamas-must-now-do-the-same/amp/

Hamas also did not do good faith. Truth is. Peace plan need to satisfy both party. If not, war continued as usual until they got the winner.

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JaThatOneGooner@reddit

How did Hamas not do good faith? Israel’s condition was they get to keep doing a war in Gaza on their terms. That’s pretty much the definition of bad faith negotiation, and is proof that this conflict was never about the hostages.

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Forget "in the midst of a negotiation," it's just crazy how consistent refusing to work with moderates just leads to more extremists in power. Almost as if that's entirely predictable, if not by design.

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Mantiskindenspines@reddit

There are no Hamas moderates. It is a contradiction.

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I-Make-Maps91@reddit

Almost like Hamas are the radicals we have left after Israel undermined everyone else. Kinda like I said.

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Little_Whippie@reddit

I wonder why Israel would want to be able to monitor its neighbors activity, could it have anything to do with the fact they are governed by an organization who’s primarily goal is to destroy Israel and its citizens?

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Chuhaimaster@reddit

I wonder why some Palestinians harbor ill will towards the State of Israel when it fences them in and controls their movements like a farmer does with his cattle.

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We already know you make unsourced false claims, you don’t need to announce it we see your comment history.

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saranowitz@reddit

Oh sorry that my comment history isn’t rife with terrorism apologist junk like yours. I’ll try harder.

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GeneralSquid6767@reddit

What you’re describing is motive, not intent.

The motive is to kill combatant. But if they know that civilians will die in the process, then by virtue of pressing the button, they intend to kill civilians as well.

Intent is the conscious decision to act in a certain way, motive is the underlying reason behind that act.

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plastic_fortress@reddit

I agree with you. Sort of. But then...

The IDF defenders love to divert the debate into a philosophical question of morality. Does intent matter? What is intent? Etc. Gray areas. Have us think it's complicated, nuanced.

Then we forget to verify their entire premise: the premise that Israel is primarily wanting to kill fighters and at worst indifferent about whether it kills civilians in the process.

We are supposed to overlook that that is only a presumption. And just quietly buy into that presumption, meanwhile getting sidetracked by moral philosophising.

Once you forget the philosophising and look at what is actually happening on the ground, you realise that whole conversion is a diversion.

Because Israel intentionally, deliberately, knowingly, motivatedly, routinely kills civilians because it is trying to kill civilians. There is ample evidence for this.

plastic_fortress@reddit

Israel does intentionally kills civilians.

Israel intentionally kills civilians by waiting till "targets" are at home with their families before attacking, maximizing rather than minimizing civilian deaths per "target". [1]

Israel intentionally kills civilians by attacking aid workers in clearly marked vehicles and known locations. [2] [3]

Israel intentionally kills civilians because it intentionally assassinates journalists. [4] [5]

Israel intentionally kills Israeli civilians, to avoid their becoming hostages and thus bargaining chips in the hands of the enemy. [6] [7]

Israel murdering civilians indiscriminately is a bold-faced lie.

You mean except for all the videos showing someone just walking being shot.

Or the reports of children killed by sniper fire.

In other words, exactly why Netanyahu had the chief negotiator assassinated.

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BlackJesus1001@reddit

And why they've been obstructing and hampering the PLO for years while tolerating or even assisting Hamas.

They don't WANT to give a moderate or secular faction any room to breath, last I checked they were still confiscating all the tax collected from the west bank which is supposed to go to the PLO.

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SirStupidity@reddit

It's quite incredible that in a thread talking about suicide bombings you attempt to paint the PLO as moderate. Who do you think lead the Palestinians during the second intifada? The organizations who are in the (even Fatah in at least one case) PLO even participated in organizing and executing suicide bombings.

So if you want peace on the Israeli side the solution is vote out Netanyahu, Smotrich, and Ben-Gvir and replace them with moderates who think killing massive amounts of Palestinian civilians is actually bad and who want actual peace.

But the Palestinian equivalent doesn't exist.

This honestly seems a bit like in Egypt where the last time they had elections, they elected the Hamas type radicals, the Muslim Brotherhood. It seems that for many reasons, the Palestinians don't want coexistence.

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redthrowaway1976@reddit

There is no reasonable voice on the Palestinian side

Except for Marwhan Barghouti, languishing in Israeli jails.

He is for a two state solution, and against terror on civilians.

He is also massively popular - and would win over both Fatah and Hamas.

And before you say that he is a convicted terrorist, we should have a look at the actions of the early Zionist leaders. Begin, Shamir, Sharon - all responsible for terror and mass murder.

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ilikedota5@reddit

Well I'm not familiar with that person, but I will say this: I don't think Netanyahu is above keeping him in jail forever for political reasons.

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redthrowaway1976@reddit

So you wrote a several paragraph long comment, with your rather strong opinions about Palestinian leadership - but you are not familiar with Marwhan Barghouti?

That's absolutely hilarious.

We aren't talking about someone relatively obscure. We are talking about one of the most popular political figures in Palestine.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/17/the-most-popular-palestinian-leader-alive-releasing-marwan-barghouti-could-transform-territories-politics

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PITCHFORKEORIUM@reddit

Marwhan Barghouti

To be fair to /u/ilikedota5, Barghouti is:

Serving five life sentences in an Israeli jail (via show-trial or not, currently in solitary) for founding the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades,

Been calling for a third intifada, what effectively became October 7th,

Rejecting co-operation with Israel,

Rejecting normalization.

He isn't exactly a viable candidate for release let alone installation as leader of a unified Palestinian state.

Releasing him would collapse the Netanyahu's government because the far-right wouldn't stand for it.

Plus Israel may very well learned a lesson about releasing terrorists to become leaders, because Sinwar was one too.

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redthrowaway1976@reddit

Serving five life sentences in an Israeli jail (via show-trial or not, currently in solitary) for founding the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades which murdered Israelis,

And?

Both Shamir and Begin were mass murderers, and the terror groups they led had killed massive amounts of civilians. Irgun's bombing campaigns were not very different than what Hamas did in the second intifada. And Ariel Sharon personally led a punitive raid on an Palestinian village, killing dozens of civliians.

If it was OK for terrorists to become Israeli PMs, I don't see why the same thing shouldn't be true for Palestinians.

Been calling for a third intifada, what effectively became October 7th,

Not sure where you are getting your information from, since you didn't provide a source. You also seem to be rather spuriously trying to tie him to October 7th.

However, the key thing is this:

He is for a two state solution, with a Palestinian state in only East Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank. That is more than you can say about the majority of the Knesset.
He is for using only non-violent resistance. He used to be for attacking only military targets (in 2006), but have no shifted to non-violent resistance.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/recommendation-marwan-barghouti-palestinian-nelson-mandela-supporters-rcna168248

Rejecting co-operation with Israel,

Rejecting normalization.

Rejecting normalization and cooperation I don't see anything wrong with - not while the occupation and settlement land grab is ongoing.

He isn't exactly a viable candidate for release let alone installation as leader of a unified Palestinian state.

Apart from being massively popular, being for a two state solution, and being for non-violent resistance, that is?

Releasing him would collapse the Netanyahu's government because the far-right wouldn't stand for it.

Israeli internal political considerations don't change the points made about him.

Plus Israel may very well learned a lesson about releasing terrorists to become leaders, because Sinwar was one too.

Or learned about Begin and Shamir - it is better to just not convict them to begin with, and elect them to be prime ministers?

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DogmaticNuance@reddit

I think the claim that he's non-violent is pretty dubious given he's in prison for violence. Also the way the article framed his current positions was 'refusing to rule out violence'.

I also don't find the whataboutism arguments particularly compelling. Ariel Sharon killed civilians, okay, but was he beneficial to the peace process? Would you be trying to get him freed if he was still alive and in a Palestinian controlled prison?

I'm not so knowledgeable that I can claim any expertise here, but I don't find the argument that releasing him would be in Israel's best interest particularly compelling. It might be a new and different approach, I suppose, but that's not always a good thing.

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redthrowaway1976@reddit

I think the claim that he's non-violent is pretty dubious given he's in prison for violence.

The claim isn't that he wasn't non-violent - it is that he nowadays says he is for only non-violent resistance.

Also the way the article framed his current positions was 'refusing to rule out violence'.

Ok. Which so long as it is not attacks on civilians is understandable - he shouldn't rule that out.

And as to attacking civilians vs. In 2006, he co-authored a letter vowing to only attack military targets.

I also don't find the whataboutism arguments particularly compelling. Ariel Sharon killed civilians, okay, but was he beneficial to the peace process?

It isn't whataboutism. It is about holding a consistent standard.

I do think that if Sharon, at the end of his life, could have helped the peace process had he been alive a while longer.

However, whether the person killed civilians or not is separate from the question as to whether they would help the peace process - and I do think Barghouti would help the peace process.

The point with killing civilians is that that should not be an inherent disqualifier for only one side. Either we apply the standard on both sides, or not at all.

As for Begin and Shamir - both mass murderers of civilians - I think they drastically sabotaged the peace process.

Would you be trying to get him freed if he was still alive and in a Palestinian controlled prison?

No. But Sharon, Begin and Shamir were all avowedly against a two state solution. It is literally in the charter of their party - that some of them likely co-authored. And this was during their political career, decades after their terrorist career.

Barghouti, on the other hand, has stated clearly he is for a two state solution, with Palestine in EJ, Gaza and the West Bank.

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SirStupidity@reddit

Source for him saying he is against violent resistance? And reasons for your trust in these statements?

Isnt he the guy who claimed to go on a hunger strike and was caught on camera eating a chocolate wafer?

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redthrowaway1976@reddit

Source for him saying he is against violent resistance?

The article I shared above.

And reasons for your trust in these statements?

Hasn't Israel repeatedly said they have no partner for peace?

Well here is a plausible partner, who has clearly stated his convictions. Yet he languishes in Israeli jail.

Isnt he the guy who claimed to go on a hunger strike and was caught on camera eating a chocolate wafer?

No idea.

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SirStupidity@reddit

I did not see any quote or claim that he is against violent resistance (because he isn't), he does however accept peace talks as one of the solutions. I think dubbing him reasonable is showing bias because I would have a hart time calling anyone who lead an organization which committed terror attacks reasonable. He is however as reasonable as other voices in the PA. But he also has the advantage of not being the leader of the PA, so he can call out the corruption that's prevalent there, but who knows if he will be corrupt himself if he takes the lead....

Then yes, he is the guy who "led" a 40 day hunger strike that Israel has released videos of him eating a chocolate wafer on the toilet sit of his cell.

But I'm sure he is definitely a man of principles who won't take public money for himself...

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DogmaticNuance@reddit

The claim isn't that he wasn't non-violent - it is that he nowadays says he is for only non-violent resistance.

When action conflicts with words, I tend to find an individual's actions the more accurate measure of their true intent. He's also got some pretty clear motivation to lie here, he's less likely to be released if he's openly advocating for violence. This is an entirely unconvincing argument, IMO.

It isn't whataboutism. It is about holding a consistent standard.

It's not a standard though, they are/were people in two very different positions. If Hamas had Sharon in prison somewhere, would you fault them for declining to release him?

However, whether the person killed civilians or not is separate from the question as to whether they would help the peace process - and I do think Barghouti would help the peace process.

I can't say he wouldn't, I don't know enough. I'm just saying I see some pretty obvious reasons Israel might not hold the same opinion that you do.

Barghouti, on the other hand, has stated clearly he is for a two state solution, with Palestine in EJ, Gaza and the West Bank.

While this is definitely important, it's not the only consideration. Being for a 'two state solution' is only the start of the argument, incompatibilities beyond that can (and always have) derailed the peace process, at which point he's an important rallying commander for an enemy organization.

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Quiet-Hawk-2862@reddit

Barghouti at one time supported the peace process, but later became disillusioned after 2000, becoming a leader of Tanzim, a paramilitary offshoot of Fatah.[2][3]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marwan_Barghouti

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redthrowaway1976@reddit

Those statements are from early 2000s sources.

I shared an article above about his current views.

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ilikedota5@reddit

I did research for a class a long time ago... Holy shit I feel old. I have some more research to do. Also I spent more time on the Israeli leadership since I'm more familiar. But you have pointed out a blind spot, thank you.

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redthrowaway1976@reddit

Haha!

Well, if we translate this to an Israeli perspective, this is like not knowing who Yair Lapid is. Or someone of that fame and stature.

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ilikedota5@reddit

I think my biases have been shown. Tbh I'm also not super familiar with those two either. I know Bennet was PM at one point briefly and he's considered more extreme than Netanyahu. Lapid is one of Gantz's centrist allies, and based on older polling, if the election was held in the past, Gantz's National Unity Party and Lapid's Yesh Atid would have been the largest parties (IIRC like 35% and 25% each). And they actually agreed that they would share the PM position by swapping it back and forth. Importantly though, Lapid and Gantz represent a return to some kind of two state solution.

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redthrowaway1976@reddit

They are (or were) at one point the party leaders of the second and third largest parties.

Lapid and Bennett were both PMs for a short while, with Gantz as their defense minister. Their unity government collapsed because their Arab coalition partners did not want to vote for the law that extends inequality before the law in the West Bank. You are aware of the separate and unequal legal system in the West Bank, right?

And they actually agreed that they would share the PM position by swapping it back and forth. Importantly though, Lapid and Gantz represent a return to some kind of two state solution.

No, not really.

Gantz, if anything is for an "entity", not a state.

Gantz and his party voted for the Knesset saying no to a two state solution. Lapid and his party didn't vote on the topic.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/knesset-votes-overwhelmingly-against-palestinian-statehood-days-before-pms-us-trip/

Gantz, as a defense minister, also cracked down hard on Palestinian civil society, banning six of the most prominent NGOs based on spurious accusation of terror links, with little or no actual evidence. (https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nine-eu-states-keep-backing-terrorist-palestinian-civil-society-groups-2022-07-12/)

The idea that he is actually interested in a two state solution doesn't really hold up to scrutiny.

But, in any case, you asked for Palestinian leaders that could chart a way forward. That's Marwan Barghouti. Most likely, he would win a presidential election over whatever candidate Fatah and Hamas put forward - he is massively popular.

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ilikedota5@reddit

Schooled again lol.

Although I wonder, is the "entity" phrasing because he doesn't think Palestinian statehood is a good idea for any number of reasons? In that linked article, he says the 1967 setup won't work nowadays, maybe he's just being vague for political reasons.

Also I wonder if Gantz banned the groups because of his military background and how paranoid they are.

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redthrowaway1976@reddit

Although I wonder, is the "entity" phrasing because he doesn't think Palestinian statehood is a good idea for any number of reasons?

He is saying an "entity" because he knows that the most he is willing to offer them does not meet the criteria for being a state.

In that linked article, he says the 1967 setup won't work nowadays, maybe he's just being vague for political reasons.

It won't work nowadays according to Gantz - because Israel has been expanding their settlements too much. Israel wants to keep more of the land it has taken for illegal settlements.

When the peace process started, there were 50k-100k settlers. Now there's 700k settlers. He knows that there is no way to get the Israeli electorate to be willing to give up enough of their illegal settlements to return to the 1967 lines, or something remotely close to them.

Have you seen a map of the settlements? They are all over nowadays. Ariel is basically as close to the Jordan Valley as it is to Israel.

In that linked article, he says the 1967 setup won't work nowadays, maybe he's just being vague for political reasons.

Also I wonder if Gantz banned the groups because of his military background and how paranoid they are.

It is part of a long process of cracking down on Palestinian civil society.

Israelis don't want the Palestinians to resist their occupation at all - not violently, not non-violently.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/israel-opt-the-stifling-of-palestinian-civil-society-organizations-must-end/

I think you are right in that it doesn't look like he supports Palestinian statehood, but I wouldn't say it's impossible to read those facts in that light, just a bit contorted and politics is messy and can make things hard to read. That is to say, if he were PM and had broad political support it would be more clear what he thinks/wants.

But he won't get broad political support for any two state solution that approximates the 1967 borders. That's just not in the cards, electorally speaking - there's no credible path there.

In 2017 more than half the Jewish Israelis viewed the settlements favorably, and today a majority of Israeli Jews are against the sanctions on extremist settlers attacking Palestinians in the West Bank. The Israeli electorate is very far to the right - and has been moving there for a long time.

On sanctions: https://en.idi.org.il/articles/54052

And nowadays, it looks more likely that Bibi or the right will win than Gantz.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/new-israeli-poll-shows-netanyahus-party-advancing-2024-09-13/

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WlmWilberforce@reddit

Barghouti is in jail for leading helping lead the pointy end of both intifadas. He founded the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade.

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redthrowaway1976@reddit

Barghouti is in jail for leading helping lead the pointy end of both intifadas. He founded the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade.

Sharon conducted mass murder of civilians in the 1950s
Shamir was one of the founders of the terror group the stern gang, and killed many civilians.

Begin led one of the most brutal terror groups in the Mandate. That group was at the level of pre-October 7th Hamas in brutality, with a campaign of bombing marketplaces

If Israeli terrorists could become PMs decades after their terror careers, I don't see why the same should not be true for Palestinians.

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WlmWilberforce@reddit

So you think Sharon is a paragon of peace?

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Godwinson4King@reddit

Could it be because peace was never the goal, but rather a decades-long cycle of violence that Israel uses to justify the expulsion of Palestinians from Palestine?

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Druss118@reddit

You’re right pretty much, but the lack of a want of peace (ie two state solution) has been pushed over multiple generations on the Palestinian side.

I see the rise of the right, and opposition to 2 states from the Israeli side (Netanyahu, Ben Gvir etc) as being a direct response to years of Palestinian rejection of peace.

The Palestinian leadership in its various guises has made it quite clear to Israel it’s not interest in pursuing genuine peace, and that two states would only be a temporary step toward the maximalist river to the sea conquest.

You can hardly blame stonewalling from the Israeli side, towards what would be the end of that country.

Ultimately the zeitgeist needs to change on both sides - however I think re-radicalisation needs to come from the Palestinian side first, in order for the Israeli side to come back round to the idea of disengagement and a two state solution.

From their perspective - they gave that a go in Gaza in 2005, and got a small taste of what’s to come if they handed over the West Bank to Palestinian society as it currently stands.

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CobberCat@reddit

Precisely this. The people pointing at Israeli unwillingness towards a two state solution today don't ever mention the multiple attempts towards a two state solution Israel has made in the past. The Palestinian response has always been that this would only ever be a first step towards retaking all of Israel.

You can't entirely blame Israel for having enough.

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soyyoo@reddit

Imagine the lack of critical thinking behind r/israelcrimes

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Hyndis@reddit

So if you want peace on the Israeli side the solution is vote out Netanyahu, Smotrich, and Ben-Gvir and replace them with moderates who actually want peace and haven't dehumanized Palestinians and think killing massive amounts of Palestinian civilians is actually bad.

The great irony is that before the outbreak of war, there were mass protests against Netanyahu's judicial reforms and he was polling at around a 20% approval rating.

Had Hamas done literally nothing at all and just sat there, Netanyahu would probably no longer be in office today simply by virtue of losing the next election.

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mstrgrieves@reddit

Relative to hamas the Israeli far right ministers like Ben gvir are as well.

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soyyoo@reddit

Hamas is a 35 year old organization retaliating 70+ years of r/israelcrimes

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GeneralSquid6767@reddit

The PLO are open to two state negotiations, that already makes them more moderate than Likud.

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The_Bear_Jew@reddit (OP)

And why they've been obstructing and hampering the PLO for years while tolerating or even assisting Hamas.

Except during the election in which Hamas gained power Israel literally stopped Hamas from campaigning in certain areas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election

Israel didn't allow campaigning in East Jerusalem by Hamas because of the terrorist attacks they had carried out previously.

The United States spent $2.3 million to directly bolster the image of President Abbas and his Fatah party.

450 members of Hamas were detained by Israel during the time of the elections.

Like this is Israel overwhelmingly showing support to Abbas here and he still lost to Hamas. People keep trying to spin this narrative that Israel somehow prefers Hamas over Abbas, which is an attempt to exonerate Palestine from electing these terrorists and trying to shift all blame to Israel and it's pathetic.

And before you say "BUT THEY GAVE MONEY TO HAMAS" they did it when they were ostensibly using them oney on mosques and charities: https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/

“The Israeli government gave me a budget,” the retired brigadier general confessed, “and the military government gives to the mosques.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas

Israel contributed to the construction of parts of Islamist politician Ahmed Yassin's network of mosques, clubs, and schools in Gaza, as well as the expansion of these institutions.

Yes, they were trying to divert power from the PLO, who are crazy terrorists, when Hamas seemed like the more moderate group. And before you point to Bibi allowing Qatari money to flow into Palestine, what would you have him do? Block the money and be accused of stopping aid from entering Palestine, allowing people to starve and straining relations with Qatar?

Just stop this nonsense. Hamas was elected by Palestine and is their responsibility, to deny them their agency in this is flat out racism via bigotry of lowered expectations.

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Druss118@reddit

Yep the tax has been confiscated because the PLO refused to stop using it for their “pay to slay” Program.

The PLO are hardly moderates.

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GeneralSquid6767@reddit

The tax confiscated has nothing to do with that.

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Druss118@reddit

It certainly does - they’ve said they’ll unfreeze it when the PLO stops paying terrorists

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GeneralSquid6767@reddit

So Israel withholds Palestinian government revenue but helps fund Hamas and you believe their excuse that they’re doing this because of terrorism?

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allprologues@reddit

yep, it doesn’t benefit Israel to have a partner for peace when they don’t want peace.

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RockstepGuy@reddit

last I checked they were still confiscating all the tax collected from the west bank which is supposed to go to the PLO.

They kinda have to because the PA lacks the systems to do so, so in the meantine since Israel is also controlling a big part of the WB (Oslo accords) they have to be the ones to collect.

AniTaneen@reddit

To illustrate a point, here is an incident from 2004 https://www.cbsnews.com/news/teen-bomber-stopped-at-west-bank/

The family of the teenager, identified as Hussam Abdo, said he was gullible and easily manipulated.

“He doesn’t know anything (about politics), and he has the intelligence of a 12 year old,” said his brother, Hosni.

Abdo, though 16, looked far younger, and the Israeli military initially said it believed he was 10. His family said he acted strangely Tuesday, giving candy to them and to neighbors and refusing to explain why.

Since the Israeli assassination of Hamas spiritual leader Sheik Ahmed Yassin on Monday, Israel has been on high alert. Hamas has killed hundreds of Israelis in suicide bombings and other attacks in recent years.

Abdo told the soldiers who caught him that someone gave him $23, a suicide bomber’s vest, and then sent him to go kill Israelis, reported CBS News Correspondent David Hawkins.

“In addition to the fact that he would have harmed my soldiers, he would have also harmed the Palestinians waiting at the checkpoint, and there were 200 to 300 innocent Palestinians there,” said the commander of the checkpoint, who identified himself only as Lt. Col. Guy.

Several teenagers have carried out suicide bombings over the past 3 1/2 years, and there has been recent concern that militant groups were turning to younger attackers to elude Israeli security checks.

The boy was sent by the militant wing of Fatah, yes the organization that signed the Oslo accords. Because by 2004 it was clear that it was a failure. But reading this article, I am reminded of what has truly changed in Israel.

“No matter how many times Israel learns of the use of children for suicide bombings, it is shocking on each occasion,” said Dore Gold, an adviser to Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. “Israelis do not understand how Palestinians are willing to sacrifice their own children in order to kill ours.”

Many, if not most, Palestinians are also shocked by the use of children by terrorists — but try to put it in context.

“As long as the Intifada is going on, as long as the incidents are escalating and the level of violence is escalating, we will have children who are ready to become martyrs, who are ready to become suicide bombers,” Palestinian psychiatrist Dr. Iyad Zaqout told Hawkins.

That is gone. I genuinely doubt that anyone in the current Israeli government would even pretend to give a shit about Palestinians. No one would be shocked because at this point the sicarios in the Knesset want a third intifada.

And no one would be shocked by the return of child bombers. Especially the Palestinians sitting on the rubble of broken promises and broken dreams.

Fuck me…

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Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

After checking the wikipedia page:

It is very small fraction compared to other war and conflict zones. 9 documented cases in 4 years.
In total, the article mentions 16 cases of attempted attacks by Palestinian minors in the West Bank and only one case in Gaza.
No evidence that the Palestinian armed groups systematically recruit children.

Quoting the wiki link:

The Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers reported that "there was no evidence of systematic recruitment of children by Palestinian armed groups," also noting that this remains a small fraction of the problem in other conflict zones such as Africa, where there are an estimated 20,000 children involved in active combat roles in the Sudan alone.

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SirStupidity@reddit

The indoctrination of children is so prevalent it has even reached Brooklyn

https://www.memri.org/tv/children-brooklyn-october7-march-f-israel-hamas-needs-build-tunnels-attack-israel

Or the Gazan Hamas ran summer camp with participations of over 100 thousand children and teenagers?

https://www.memri.org/reports/hamas-summer-camps-children-and-teens-gaza-strip-provide-weapons-and-military-training-order

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Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

The indoctrination of children is so prevalent it has even reached Brooklyn

What about the lovely Friendship song broadcasted on Kan (Israeli state channel) that got Israeli children singing about killing all people in Gaza and occupying Gaza. The lyrics go:

In another year there will be nothing there

And we will return safely to our home within a year

We will annihilate them all

And then return to plowing our fields

In 2002 during the second intifada, Israeli children would send letters to Yedioth Ahronoth saying things like “Dear soldiers, please kill a lot of Arabs”. The paper said dozens of such letters were sent by school children.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/16/the-language-being-used-to-describe-palestinians-is-genocidal

Not to mention, Israeli education system teaches that literally Israeli children hate for Arabs according to Israeli studies.

Analysing 124 Israeli textbooks on various subjects and for various age groups approved by the Israeli Ministry of Education to be used in religious and secular schools in 1998, Israeli academic Daniel Bar-Tal found that majority of these books included negative stereotypes about Arabs, portraying them as “cruel, immoral, unfair” and determined “to annihilate the State of Israel” while presenting Jewish Israelis as the victims of the conflict.

Or the Gazan Hamas ran summer camp with participations of over 100 thousand children and teenagers?

Lol

Israel have similar camps for teenagers to prepare them for when they join the IDF.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Boarding_School_for_Command

In Time's article published in 2015 and titled"These Teenagers Are Israel’s Future Soldiers"

"Students meet three times a week, over a year, and are put through grueling exercises designed to strengthen them ahead of their military service. “For example, those who train to join the Navy are sent in the water when it’s cold weather,” says Balilty. “They go in and out, and at the same time the instructors are asking them questions about the history of Israel to see if they’re focused and if they are mentally stable. It’s very intense. [The instructors] want to simulate the tension and stress that soldiers are under in the military.”

"The students also learn how to assemble an AK-47 assault rifle, and how to react in an urban, house-to-house fighting situation."

"Excellent Training is just one of the many companies, founded by former members of the Israeli military, that have been offering these training programs in the last decade."

https://time.com/3769556/israel-private-military-fitness-training/

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alonlankri@reddit

Military camp is somewhat different than terrorist camp... and a far smaller percent of the population goes. Painting all arabs as X or Y is not a systemic thing in Israel as it is in the Palestinian territories. Your examples are all for small amounts of extremists sending letters at the height of a terror wave, I have no knowledge of that song, but Kan is the lowest rated TV channel. Military service is mandatory so many parents send their teens to prep camps, which makes sense, since the kids want to go to better units and not get screwed breaking their backs lifting cannon shells for weapons from the 60s since the army is too cheap to buy mechanical lifts.

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Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

Military camp is somewhat different than terrorist camp

Interestingly, i say the same thing about my right and left butt cheeks.

Painting all arabs as X or Y is not a systemic thing in Israel as it is in the Palestinian territories.

Negative stereotypes of Arabs as inferior, barbarians, hostile is literally taught in Israeli schools.

Your examples are all for small amounts of extremists sending letters at the height of a terror wave

Funny how when a single Palestinian does something, it is an evidence of Palestinian people and culture being inherently evil but when Israelis do the most vile things, it is fringe extremists who don't represent Israel.

Like guys, we saw the Nice Guys vid where they say any Israeli jew would hit a button to destroy all of Gaza.

Military service is mandatory so many parents send their teens to prep camps

You are just making excuses for why children are sent to military camps to learn how to use guns.

Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

Zionism is ethnic supremacy and settler colonialism ideology.

Israel is an aparthied settler colonial state that is commiting a genocide and is on the UN blacklist of countries that harm children.

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alonlankri@reddit

And it is rich how after every Jew in the middle east was ethnically cleansed that you call the only state their people are accepted and safe a colonialist state. Jews building homes in Judea ain't colonialist.

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Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

And it is rich how after every Jew in the middle east was ethnically cleansed

No, there were not!!

Jews building homes in Judea ain't colonialist.

Sure, Jan.

Now go spew your hasbara somewhere else. This convo is over.

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alonlankri@reddit

Even if everything you said was true (and it is all crock except for being on the list which is total BS) you realize every country are settlers and colonialists? Especially US, Canada, Australia etc.

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Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

you realize every country are settlers and colonialists?

Not really!!

Especially US, Canada, Australia etc.

Doesn't make settler colonialism, ethnic and racial supremacy and the genocide of the indigenous indigenous population any better.

Also the difference between Israel and these countries is that the Israeli colonial project is ongoing.

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Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

Military camp is somewhat different than terrorist camp

Interestingly, i say the same thing about my right and left butt cheeks.

Painting all arabs as X or Y is not a systemic thing in Israel as it is in the Palestinian territories.

Negative stereotypes of Arabs as inferior, barbarians, hostile is literally taught in Israeli schools.

Your examples are all for small amounts of extremists sending letters at the height of a terror wave

Like guys, we saw the Nice Guys vid where they say any Israeli jew would hit a button to destroy all of Gaza.

Military service is mandatory so many parents send their teens to prep camps

You are just making excuses for why children are sent to military camps to learn how to use guns.

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SirStupidity@reddit

I don't know which song you are referring too, maybe you should link it.

Yeah, sadly there's racism in Israel as well. Including in children who fail to see the nuances of the situation. The use of the word Arabs for children can range from "terrorists" to Arab, which should be worked on to change.

I know how textbooks from 26 years ago are relevant, in fact you are proving that Israel has actively looked at and criticized itself for harmful language and unfair painting of the situation.

A military boarding school isn't the same thing as a terrorist summer camp bro... With the first difference being that these children don't participate in any conflict until they are of age and members of the IDF. Its for children in high school so clearly it's training towards the military service and not as encouragements for independent participation like letting 10 year olds hold AKs and RPGs. And the scale is completely different...

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Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

I don't know which song you are referring too, maybe you should link it.

I laughed out loud because you managed to find that memri article and use to as an evidence that Palestinians indoctrinates their children but somehow you completely missed a child song on Israel state channel about annihilating Gaza and Gazans😂😂.

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/11/27/fact-check-did-israeli-children-really-sing-about-annihilating-everyone-in-gaza

I know how textbooks from 26 years ago are relevant, in fact you are proving that Israel has actively looked at and criticized itself for harmful language and unfair painting of the situation.

You are confusing Israeli researchers with the state of Israel.

We know things didn't change because in 2013, Israeli language and education professor Nurit Peled-Elhanan documented in her book 'Palestine in Israeli School Books' that Israeli schoolchildren are indoctrinated with negative stereotypes and outright hatred of Palestinians and Arabs from an early age.

A military boarding school isn't the same thing as a terrorist summer camp bro... With the first difference being that these children don't participate in any conflict until they are of age and members of the IDF.

Who said Palestinian children participate in conflicts.

Quoting the UNICEF report:"The UN didn't receive reports of individual cases or pattern of recruitment connected to the camp activities"

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SirStupidity@reddit

I follow the MEMRI organization because I dont speak Arabic and it's important to see what some Arabic speakers say.

So KAN didn't create and air the video it just shared it on Twitter? The translation of the song isn't accurate, the words "et kolam" mean the beforehand mentioned "Swastika Bearers". "Won't be a thing there" could also clearly address the terrorism in Gaza, "crossing the line" is again clearly referencing the ground entrance to Gaza. Listen, this song is clearly trying to create provocation and hate, but it's a privately written song with, probably, child singers. Not some state mandated propaganda.

You are clearly confusing the state of Israel with the government of Israel. People from the state of Israel conducted research about policies of the government of Israel. Researchers you claimed were acknowledged by the state. You keep referencing research and criticism of Israelis on Israeli policies, as proper in a democracy. Do you think any Palestinians researched the Hamas run schools? Why not?

Who is going to report them to UNICEF? The probably also indoctrinated parents of these children?

There's been plenty of underage suicide bombers and terrorists in this conflict...

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Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

I follow the MEMRI organization

Oh, you are following a Zionist mouthpiece with history of mistranslation and cherry picking the most extreme and fringe things.

So KAN didn't create and air the video it just shared it on Twitter?

The Israeli state channel (kan) sharing this hate song on its online platforms is actually big deal!!!!

If - according to you- one vid from pro Palestine protest you found on a zionist hasbara site is good evidence that Palestinians indoctrinate their children.

Then a group of Israeli children singing about the annihilation of Gaza and Gazans is sure very good evidence for the indoctrination of Israeli children.

Not to mention, we have more evidence for the indoctrination of Israeli children e.g school books and the letters of hate!!

The translation of the song isn't accurate

Give me break!

They absolutely mean all Gazans. I can't count how many Israelis whether officials or civilans said that they are no innocent people in Gaza.

Listen, this song is clearly trying to create provocation and hate, but it's a privately written song with, probably, child singers. Not some state mandated propaganda.

Love how you have different standards for what qualifies as evidence for indoctrination for Palestinians and Israelis.

Not some state mandated propaganda.

So we are just going to ignore the Israeli education system.

Do you think any Palestinians researched the Hamas run schools? Why not?

Actually it is just your racism that makes you think that Gaza schools teaches children anti semitism etc.

Just recently, the UN has assigned 3 Nordic institutes to examine Palestinian school books for antisemitic content. Their report provided "found very limited evidence for those allegations"

Who is going to report them to UNICEF? The probably also indoctrinated parents of these children?

Because you know everyone in Gaza is Hamas and the only way for the UN to gather information is from parents or children who are Hamas./S

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SirStupidity@reddit

Qhh yes, the classic Zionist mind control forcing these people to say awful things. Did they mistranslated anything I linked? Or are you just attacking the character instead of the content?

Bruh that's just the first link I found showing indoctrinated children, do you want me to find dozens more?

Give you a break? I'm the person who actually speaks the language, and to see you blame doctors and experts of mistranslating in MEMRI when you get you translation of random news sites, many who have a clear agenda.

Anything Hamas does in Gaza is state mandated, because they are the governing body of Gaza. I dont think its a different standard.

Bruh when has the Israeli education system had children walk across a Palestine flag? You are genuinely ridiculous to compare the two.

Just recently the head of UNRWA's schools in Lebanon was found out to be a member of Hamas...

Not everyone in Gaza is Hamas, the perant who sends his child to a summer camp to practice shooting AKs and RPGs, to glorify terrorists, to walk on Israeli flags, to learn that "we must prepare to liberate Jerusalem from the filthy usurping occupiers [i.e., the Israelis].". Yeah they're probably also indoctrinated...

What percentage of UN workers in Gaza before the war were Palestinians?

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freshprinz1@reddit

No one would be shocked because at this point the sicarios in the Knesset want a third intifada.

Genuinely what the fuck is wrong with you people? These are Nazi level conspiracies.

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AniTaneen@reddit

Let me turn off the sarcasm and assume your ignorance on the matter. The Jewish Power [Otzma Yehudit in Hebrew] party is a member of the coalition government that self identifies with fascist and racist ideology. They literally have advocated for * Creating a government office to incentivize and facilitate the emigration of Arab citizens of Israel * Annexing the West Bank without affording Palestinians the right to vote or other civil rights * Using live fire against rioters * Immunity from prosecution for IDF soldiers

They are Israel’s version of the AFD.

But if you aren’t ignorant of the situation that has been gripping Israel in the last few years. The sarcastic answer to accusations of Nazi level conspiracy is to say: Yep. That would be correct. Let me check in with some noted antisemitic organizations… the pro-Israel lobby AIPAC? The ADL? And the American Jewish Committee?

https://www.ajc.org/news/ajc-statement-on-otzma-yehudit-party
https://www.adl.org/resources/press-release/adl-expresses-concern-over-likely-inclusion-extremists-new-israeli
https://www.adl.org/resources/article/dangers-mainstreaming-otzma-yehudit-israels-jewish-power-party
https://www.axios.com/2019/02/22/aipac-netanyahu-election-deal-far-right-jewish-pawer-party

I don’t call them sicarios because I think they are Mexican drug cartels. I call them that because like the sicarim of the Roman period, they believe in violence at all costs.

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freshprinz1@reddit

Cool story bro. As you said, there are extremist parties in almost all democracies. But does it justify saying that "the sicarios in the German parliament want a third world war"? It implies that you genuinely think that ALL Knesset politicians want their own people to die in a campaign of incredibly cruel terror attacks to gain more power.

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AniTaneen@reddit

Okay. Noted. I have edited the text to specify that it does not reflect the entire parliament.

We are not talking about something so dismissive as “there are extremist parties in almost all democracies.” We are not talking about a minority party here. We are not talking about local elections in an economically challenged area.

This is about the minister in charge of the police and the prisons being a racist and Jewish supremacist.

Now take your apologetics and fuck off. It takes a special kind of internet troll to call people Nazis but not seem to show any kind of reaction when faced with actual fascists.

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Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

After checking the wikipedia page:

It is very small fraction compared to other war and conflict zones. 9 documented cases in 4 years.
No evidence that the Palestinian armed groups systematically recruit children.

In 2004, the Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers reported that "there was no evidence of systematic recruitment of children by Palestinian armed groups," also noting that this remains a small fraction of the problem in other conflict zones such as Africa, where there are an estimated 20,000 children involved in active combat roles in the Sudan alone.

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Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

Aren't you such a liar?

After checking the wikipedia page:

It is very small fraction compared to other war and conflict zones. 9 documented cases in 4 years.
In total, the article mentions 16 cases of attempted attacks by Palestinian minors in the West Bank and only one case in Gaza.
No evidence that the Palestinian armed groups systematically recruit children.

Quoting the wikilink you provided:

The Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers reported that "there was no evidence of systematic recruitment of children by Palestinian armed groups," also the coalition noted that this remains a small fraction of the problem in other conflict zones such as Africa, where there are an estimated 20,000 children involved in active combat roles in the Sudan alone.

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veilosa@reddit

idk where you getting 9 from.

According to the Israel Defense Forces, 29 suicide attacks were carried out by youth under the age of 18 in 2000–2003. From May 2001, 22 shootings attacks and attacks using explosive devices were carried out by youth under the age of 18, and more than 40 youths under the age of 18 were involved in attempted suicide bombings that were thwarted (three in 2004).

the article goes on to document cases in other years.

and

On May 30, 2004, The New York Times reported Israeli allegations that the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades were using children to recruit classmates as suicide bombers,

this sounds pretty systematic to me, if you search the topic you can find multiple intelligence reports on this topic as well,

unless Wikipedia is serving you a totally different page, you might want to hold these accusations of lying for the mirror.

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Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

idk where you getting 9 from.

From the wikipedia article you provided.

These are the cases documented by reptuable human rights organizations.

According to the Israel Defense Forces, 29 suicide attacks were carried out by youth under the age of 18 in 2000–2003.

The key word is according to the IDF.

On May 30, 2004, The New York Times reported Israeli allegations that the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades were using children to recruit classmates as suicide bombers

Again, Israeli allegations!!

if you search the topic you can find multiple intelligence reports on this topic as well

Funny because the organizations that study and report on the use of child warriors like the Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers found "there was no evidence of systematic recruitment of children by Palestinian armed groups and child soldiers is a small fraction of the problem in other conflict zones such as Africa, where there are an estimated 20,000 children involved in active combat roles in the Sudan alone.

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Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

Aren't you such a liar?

After checking the wikipedia page:

It is very small fraction compared to other war and conflict zones. 9 documented cases in 4 years.
In total, the article mentions 16 cases of attempted attacks by Palestinian minors in the West Bank and only one case in Gaza.
No evidence that the Palestinian armed groups systematically recruit children.

Quoting the wikilink you provided:

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Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

Aren't you such a liar?

It is very small fraction compared to other war and conflict zones. 9 documented cases in 4 years.
No evidence that the Palestinian armed groups systematically recruit children.

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ChinggisKhaani1@reddit

What a lame hot take. The threat to Hamas is Palestinian liberation not Israel? There’s no Palestinian Liberation with current Israel. There’s no Palestine at all only sham negotiations meant to silence any resistance to Israeli, backed by the United States, colonial actions.

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AniTaneen@reddit

To quote your late countryman,

The oppressed, instead of striving for liberation, tend themselves to become oppressors…

Hamas does not strive for liberation. It seeks independence, resistance, revenge.

But their ideology is rooted in fanatical Islamist doctrines. Their vision is to become the oppressors.

To that end they serve as tools of Israeli oppression. Because their existence isn’t simply used to justify violence against Palestinians, rather their existence is predicated on violence against Palestinians. The more oppressive the apartheid, the stronger their vision becomes.

I want to be clear, I don’t blame Palestinians for their own oppression. What I am very much saying is that Hamas does not fight for liberation in the way most people in the political left use that term.

They can be said to fight for independence. To resist.

Israel has only strengthened their power. You might see almost 50,000 victims. They see martyrs. You might talk about ending apartheid, they are thinking about the “Algerian model” not the “South African model”. You might talk about a Palestinian Democracy, they are thinking about an Islamist Theocracy.

My point is that they ultimately serve the Israeli government unwillingly. Because their violence has only empowered the current government. Their violence has targeted and destroyed efforts to build commonality between Jews and Arabs.

My point is that it was not incidental or random that they targeted communities like Be’eri.

My point is that one can not claim that they stand for liberation and then murder Vivian Silver: https://www.npr.org/sections/pictureshow/2023/11/17/1213523321/israel-gaza-peace-activist-vivian-silver-funeral-service

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ow-my-lungs@reddit

Where do you see the conflict going? Given the historical context, the political climate in Israel, the likely continuance of US support, the engagements with Lebanon/Iran/Syria.

I think you're making a solid and good faith effort of trying to understand why people do what they do, so I'm curious what you've personally extrapolated given your current understanding.

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AniTaneen@reddit

Trying to predict anything in long-term is impossible.

There are also forces within Israel that are shaping its future. Chief among them being the ultra religious orthodox Jews, who mostly do not participate in the military or in the economy, and they are more than happy to join any government that will take tax money away from the tech sector and working Israelis to fund their religious Academies and their way of life.

I recently listened to an interview that Ezra Klein had, which I’ll link at the end, and an interesting point was made. Israeli officials do not trust Donald Trump to give them carte blanche on the war. Trump is one phone call away from telling them to just stop it because it’s making him look bad. Iran’s relationship with Russia is a likely culprit.

Likewise, Harris might not have the political capital to actually put pressure on Israel. She might find herself with a republican senate and not be able to do much.

And I think this war will end like Israel’s invasion of Lebanon in the 1980s, when the Americans have had enough.

People tell me that the Israel of today is unrecognizable from the Israel of 40, even 20 years ago. And I don’t just mean things like social media or the economy. The country is less socialist, more fanatical, and less trusting of its own institutions. It is essentially a teetering on the edge of becoming a “Illiberal Democracy”, and that’s not just looking at the non Jewish citizens, but the Jewish citizens finding that many of their rights have been eroded by the crisis. The corruption has also diminished confidence in institutions such as the police and the military. It is literally one law away from having a single branch of government without checks and balances.

And I can’t predict where this will all go in the next few months.

Meanwhile the destruction in Gaza is horrifying, it will take decades to rebuild. Israel keeps returning to areas it cleared because there is no presence. They show up, bomb, shoot, and leave. Hamas simply returns and the process repeats. From Khan Younis to Rafa. Now they are back to the north of Gaza.

What I can say right now, for the foreseeable future is the following: 1. There is no coherent and unified opposition to the current government. Even if they got voted out, they’d return 2. The war will not end before the US election is decided, and that might not be till early January. 3. Israel cannot, and I argue that the current government does not want to, end the organizations of Hamas and Hezbollah. They will however take time to rebuild. 4. Israel will try to gain control of additional territories as buffer zones. The Egypt-Gaza border will likely remain under Israeli control in a likely end of the war. UNIFIL complicates predicting what will happen in Lebanon. 5. This is a proxy war between America and Iran. One of two things will happen. Either the Saudis will get their defense pact with the US, which requires a normalization deal with Israel. Or after the war, Iran’s regime will feel too vulnerable and seek a new nuclear deal. The real factor here is also Putin and Ukraine. If that conflict ends, Iran might have more incentives to move away from their northern neighbor.

But all of that is 2025 and 2026.

The conflict that has been going on since the 1920s? Before there were states? I sadly don’t believe it will end in this decade.

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Hyndis@reddit

Meanwhile the destruction in Gaza is horrifying, it will take decades to rebuild. Israel keeps returning to areas it cleared because there is no presence. They show up, bomb, shoot, and leave. Hamas simply returns and the process repeats. From Khan Younis to Rafa. Now they are back to the north of Gaza.

Thats what bothers me the most about this war. I have zero love for Hamas, and if every Hamas member was sent to the gallows I'd pop a bottle of champagne.

Israel has every advantage militarily, and yet they're not declaring victory. It feels like in the closing days of WW2, where the USSR is clobbering Berlin, marching troops through the streets of Berlin, barely a house is left standing, and for some reason the USSR refuses to declare victory, they continue the war for month after month against a foe that has been utterly defeated in every possible way. Thats madness. Wouldn't a country be eager to declare victory?

Hamas' leadership is fanatical enough that they'd gladly fight to the death, but at some point can't a defeated government be declared to be no longer in charge? Sure, Hamas can still pretend its charge, but if Israel simply declares victory and that Hamas has been expelled from Gaza, and that Hamas no longer has authority, and Israel establishes a new temporary government, isn't that victory?

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runsongas@reddit

That's the problem, any government they try to install will be deeply unpopular and collapse as soon as the Israelis leave. it would be no different than what happened previously in south Lebanon or the US experience in Afghanistan.

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ow-my-lungs@reddit

Of course it's impossible to predict the future, but I was interested in what pieces of context looked particularly important rolling forward.

Thank you for the reply.

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Kahzootoh@reddit

Yahya Sinwar understands the Israelis in a way that the Israelis are reluctant to accept- he learned Hebrew in prison as part of his efforts to understand the Israelis and their society.

This is a man whose role in Hamas before his arrest was counter intelligence- he didn’t execute four suspected collaborators by happenstance, this was his job in Hamas.

One the best looks into Sinwar is his fictional book which he penned in 2004 while serving four life sentences. The Thorn and Carnation heavily draws from his own experiences, and the most chilling aspect is his emphasis on the role of Israeli prisons acting as a crucible for Palestinian militancy that destroys the weak and purifies their cause- it is through the coercive force wielded by the Israelis that Hamas believes it is made stronger.

Sinwar smuggled this book out of an Israeli prison in sections with the cooperation of other Hamas members, a testament to his capacity to operate even when under the most restrictive circumstances.

It’s also worth noting that his release was a result of the Gilad Schalit hostage deal, Siniwar’s brother actually led the operation that captured Schalit in 2006.

This is a man who is meticulous about understanding his enemy. You don’t see Israeli leaders learning Arabic, which is why Israelis being completely confident in themselves while making wrong conclusions about Palestinians is almost a stereotype of the Israelis among the rest of the region.

I frequently say that Israel created Hamas, but not as a justification for the brutality of Hamas- rather it is an indictment of Israel’s leadership over the last 40 years and a collective stain upon all of Israeli society for voting for these monsters time after time. This policy of encouraging Palestinian militancy in the belief that division within Palestinian society is good for Israeli security is dangerous and deeply flawed- the Israeli government created a monstrous organization that kills Israelis, and they slay Palestinian bystanders as a scapegoat for their own crimes.

In any normal country, there would be trials and investigations. When Netanyahu told a meeting of Likud Party members in 2018 that he wanted to fund Hamas, he should have been sent to either a jail cell or a mental institution. Instead, they cheered for his actions that led to the greatest loss of life for both Israelis and Palestinians.

Instead of being held accountable, Israelis have allowed Netanyahu to remain in power as long as he promises war and slaughter of the innocent. Every day that he remains in power is a testament to how far the Israelis have fallen as a society- he condemned over a thousand Israelis to death, but Israelis will let him remain in power as long as he promises to let them murder innocent people.

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mstrgrieves@reddit

The majority of Jewish Israelis have families that came originally from arab countries. They understand Arabs far more than vice versa.

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freshprinz1@reddit

When Netanyahu told a meeting of Likud Party members in 2018 that he wanted to fund Hamas

Conveniently forgetting that at that point Hamas was the de facto government in Gaza, multiple wars didn't bring any progress in changing the Status quo and the new approach was instead funding Hamas & Gaza so that they would outgrow their murderous policies. It was assumed that Hamas truly cares about their people in Gaza and if the economic needs would be met there' would be prospects for peace.

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Kahzootoh@reddit

The new approach was conveniently implemented after the Palestinian Authority reduced the amount of money being transferred to Hamas in an effort to destroy the terrorist organization by starving it of funds.

Sending money to Hamas in 2018 was a deliberate act to support a terrorist organization that had repeatedly gone to war with Israel- its demise without a single bullet being fired should have been welcomed.

If anyone assumes that Hamas cares about anyone, those people should revisit all their other assumptions - Hamas has demonstrated at every possible opportunity that it does not hold anyone’s welfare above its cause of national liberation. It will sacrifice any amount of Palestinian lives it deems necessary if it believes that it is for the cause.

If the Israeli government really believed that Hamas was liberalizing or becoming moderate- that is even scarier than Netanyahu being so depraved that he supported terrorism to keep the conflict going indefinitely. If Netanyahu was actually that stupid, leaving him in charge of anything would be disastrous for Israel; I don’t even hear Israelis pushing this nonsense narrative, and they’re dumb enough to keep Netanyahu as their leader year after year.

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freshprinz1@reddit

Can you even think one coherent thought?

destroy the terrorist organization by starving it of funds in 2018.

What do you think Hamas would have done being faced with internal turmoil? Quietly give up or do something that unites all Palestinians (attacking Israel with all their forces in an desperate attempt to stay relevant or survive)?

Sending money to Hamas in 2018 was a deliberate act to support a terrorist organization that had repeatedly gone to war with Israel- its demise without a single bullet being fired or any civilian casualties should have been welcomed.

You really fucking think that would have happened? The PA move of "starving" Hamas was diabolically genius. They knew exactly that if Israel would do nothing, Hamas would behave like rabid animal, attack Israel and Palestinians in Gaza would suffer. And who would have been blamed for this by people like you? Israel. They also knew that if Israel would do something to stabilize the relatively well functioning status Quo people like you would AGAIN blame Israel as you just did. You are truly an "useful idiot" and you get played like a fiddle.

If anyone assumes that Hamas cares about anyone, those people should revisit all their other assumptions - Hamas has demonstrated at every possible opportunity that it does not hold anyone’s welfare above its cause of national liberation. It will sacrifice any amount of Palestinian lives it deems necessary if it believes that it is for the cause.

Yeah NOW after Oct 7 everyone knows it. Before that the whole Israeli security apparatus believed that Hamas was big talk but - forced to be a government - also reliant on providing the people a certain level of welfare. They thought that - comparatively - small skirmishes every few years would be enough for Hamas to show they still cared "about Palestinian liberation" while keeping the Status Quo intact. As you may not know the people in the South did absolutely not agtee with just accepting near constant rocket bombardment and rightfully critized the government why they weren't doing anything to eliminate Hamas once and for all.

If Netanyahu was actually that stupid, leaving him in charge of anything would be disastrous for Israe

FUCKING YES! This man is a criminal and only interested in keeping his position. He must pay for his failure of protecting Israel.

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AniTaneen@reddit

You have hit many nails on the head. With one exception, you don’t see Israeli Jewish politicians who speak Arabic. Obviously Israeli Arab politicians do.

This is a condemnation of Israeli society and culture as a whole. Its inability and unwillingness to understand their neighbors more thoroughly.

But plenty of Israeli leaders speak and understand Arabic fluently. They overwhelmingly reside in the intelligence community.

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Kahzootoh@reddit

Israeli Arabs (who are not Jewish) are largely segregated from the rest of Israeli society, even the Mizrahi Jewish Israelis who are from Middle Eastern countries have long experienced discrimination for looking like the enemy.

Israeli Arab politicians have been excluded from participating in Israeli politics by their Jewish counterparts as much as possible- this exclusion is why they are all part of the Arab List party, which contains everything from Islamists to Feminist Socialists.

In a normal situation, these Arab politicians would probably be part of Israeli parties that align with their values, but they are excluded due to Jewish parties not wanting any Arab members.

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LineOfInquiry@reddit

Idk, I think Israel would’ve cracked down regardless of what Hamas did. Their ultimate goal is the annexation of the West Bank after all, the cracking down on Palestinians is the goal and the justification is found afterwards.

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AniTaneen@reddit

Their ultimate goal is the annexation of the West Bank after all, the cracking down on Palestinians is the goal and the justification is found afterwards.

I’m starting to wonder if being old enough to remember the 1990s affects me. If the ultimate goal is annexation, then how do you explain the Gaza pull out?

Annexation as a goal is really a project that has popular support and an actual presence in government circa 2008.

Which makes sense why many people in this subreddit only know Israel as a state run by ethno-fascists. Anyone here under the age of 25 literally is too young to remember an Israel with few barriers and checkpoints. An Israel where many spoke about a two state solution. An Israel where you’d get on a bus and weren’t sure you’d make it out alive.

An Israel where the average teenager felt that the Palestinians were victims. And hoped for peace one day.

It’s easy to see today and claim that things were always this way. It’s hard to look back and realize how successful Sinwar’s world view has been.

I’m honestly in a minority who genuinely believe that the course can be turned around. But that’s because I live in the USA, a country where children get murdered in school and no one really cares anymore.

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-Shmoody-@reddit

You should stop commenting on this subject if you’re that naive and obtuse.

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LineOfInquiry@reddit

Israel pulled out of Gaza because they recognized the nature of the conflict changing. They could no longer keep up the facade of simply fighting a foreign power and not their own people, and if the conflict became recognized internationally as one similar to South Africa Israel as a state for Jews and Jews alone would lose its legitimacy.

Israel chose to follow this course of action specifically for a few reasons. Firstly Gaza was very densely populated with a huge Palestinian majority. Israeli settlements were never going to be able to outnumber them. So for Israel, cutting their losses in Gaza in order to focus their attention entirely on the West Bank was a good trade. There’s a reason they didn’t pull out of the West Bank too: they still want to annex it. Additionally, Gaza has very little connection to Israel’s national narrative whereas many prominent biblical stories take place in the West Bank and parts of it were the core of Israel and Judah. Any nationalist would easily trade Gaza in order to gain the West Bank.

Secondly Gaza gives them a place to dump Palestinians that they can position as a foreign country rather than a part of Israel. Remember, if Israel wants to annex the West Bank they’ll have to grant citizenship to the Palestinians living there just as they did with East Jerusalem: if they didn’t even the international community wouldn’t accept apartheid that blatant. If they can get as many Palestinians as possible to leave and move to Gaza instead, that just helps their cause.

Israel thought they could just ignore Gaza, but that obviously didn’t work since Hamas still wasn’t happy with the other half of their country being occupied. This has led to the current invasion and likely backtracking of this policy as it has outlived its usefulness. At the very least, I think we’ll see a portion of the strip annexed, and potentially all of it if Israel can find a place to dump the people who live there rn (or just kill them).

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roydez@reddit

I’m starting to wonder if being old enough to remember the 1990s affects me. If the ultimate goal is annexation, then how do you explain the Gaza pull out?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_the_Gaza_Strip

In an interview from November 2003, Ehud Olmert, the deputy leader to Sharon, who had been subtly suggesting a unilateral approach for a couple of months, elaborated on his evolving policy. [19][20][21] He expressed his certainty that the Israeli government would soon need to seriously and decisively address the "demographic issue". He believed this issue would be the primary determinant of the solution they would have to adopt. He observed that an increasing number of Palestinians wanted to move from a fight against occupation to a fight for "one-man-one-vote". However, according to Olmert, for Israelis, it would signify the end of the Jewish state. The parameters of a unilateral solution as described by Olmert would be to maximize the Jewish population, minimize the Palestinian population, avoid withdrawing to the 1967 border, and not divide Jerusalem.

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PapaverOneirium@reddit

“after the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine “ — Ben Gurion, p.22 “The Birth of Israel, 1987” Simha Flapan.

Annexation of the whole of Palestine has always been the goal.

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freshprinz1@reddit

Is there anything in the world that Je.. Zionists are not at fault for? You really think Israelis are playing 4D chess and Palestinians are just borderline retarded children without any accountability or agency? That's incredibly racist.

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cultish_alibi@reddit

Far-right Hamas and the far-right Israeli government need each other in order to exist. They are both run by warmongering extremists who have no desire for peace. They get to keep power as long as the inane fighting and revenge killings continue on both sides.

If Hamas had not responded to the Oslo accords with bombings, I doubt Netanyahu would be in power.

An important response to the Oslo accords was by the Israeli far-right, and it was to murder Rabin for suggesting peace. Strange you missed that out of your analysis.

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Fuzzy_Yogurt_Bucket@reddit

And elect the guy who encouraged his assassination to be Prime Minister for the next few decades.

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AniTaneen@reddit

You are missing a few steps there. After Rabin was assassinated the population of Israel were reacting to spate of suicide bombings which reinforced the Likud arguments for prioritizing security. Hamas claimed responsibility for most of the bombings.

Netanyahu becomes PM, and begins derailing the process. He also starts a process of economic privatization. The corruption scandals bring down the government by 1999. But the privatization begun to splinter the left wing between centrists and leftists.

Netanyahu was more popular than Ariel Sharon, who broke away from the Labor party and created the center, but chose not to go for the PM position. By 2003 he was the minister of finance.

But by then the second intifada was under way.

The left’s last government was in the end of the early 2000s. The global economic crisis had made many Israelis turn to a socialist option. But the damage had been done. By 2008 the left wing was dead. The Center had replaced it.

In October 7th Hamas murdered communities that had for years been the last bastions of old school Israeli leftism. Socialist and fighting to give people in Gaza work opportunities. A year later it is clear that the center in Israel is now dead.

I reckon that come the next election Israel will have to choose one of four political ideologies to lead the country: Religious conservatism, Secular Conservatism, Militant Conservative, and Fascist Conservatism.

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TheIrishBread@reddit

While not excusing them the suicide bombings were retaliation for initially the Cave of Patriarchs Massacre and then the assassination of Yahya Ayyash. And that is how Nehatanyu consolidated power.

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roydez@reddit

Netanyahu incited directly against Rabin and Oslo and is known to have given multiple fanatic speeches catered to the most ultranationalist factions such as his famous "we'll never agree to partitioning Jerusalem" speech at Zion square. And he incited directly against the peace-process by calling Palestinian leadership mass-murders and that he is "becoming afraid for his son."

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AniTaneen@reddit

He also held a mock funeral in July of 1995, where they carried an effigy of Rabin in an SS uniform and a coffin for him.

He was aware of the threats on the PM’s life and didn’t care.

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worldm21@reddit

The man sat in an Israeli jail for murdering Palestinians he accused of collaborating with Israel. He literally strangled two of them, and a third he tortured to death.

And "Israel" put him in prison because of their compassion for Palestinian lives? Which part of this adds up to you?

The peace movement arose as a response to the first intifada, it died in the second.

This is objectively false, the March for Return happened after the Second Intifada.

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cultish_alibi@reddit

If Hamas had not responded to the Oslo accords with bombings, I doubt Netanyahu would be in power.

An important response to the Oslo accords was by the Israeli far-right, and it was to murder Rabin for suggesting peace. Strange you missed that out of your analysis.

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AniTaneen@reddit

An important response to the Oslo accords was by the Israeli far-right, and it was to murder Rabin for suggesting peace. Strange you missed that out of your analysis.

I’ve mentioned it in the past when talking about this point elsewhere. And to reinforce just how much the murders have won. Just how the most fucking pieces of shit in our lives have taken control, I’ll reinforce this point with an anecdote that is not spoken about enough.

Here is a picture of a 16 year old boasting about damaging the prime minister’s car in October 1995 and hinting at how next time they will kill the PM (who would be assassinated in November of that year) https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2022/07/bengvir-400x250-1.jpeg

That little fart is now the man in charge of the police in Israel.

Far-right Hamas and the far-right Israeli government need each other in order to exist. They are both run by warmongering extremists who have no desire for peace. They get to keep power as long as the inane fighting and revenge killings continue on both sides.

There is an old cgp-grey video on the study of memes and how anger affects our dialogue: https://youtu.be/rE3j_RHkqJc?si=2CmNE5HYCDPwiv7P

zbobet2012@reddit

How about Mosul a descent sized populated area ?
Edit
Crazy you had the nerve to say other people don’t understand war

The fun thing about this is you could have checked my comment history from last year for the math:
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/17o72eb/comment/k7xranu/

I realize outside of this conflict most people have very little understanding of war. So I'm going to give you some historical battles that were analogous: the battle for Mosul where Iraqi Defense Forces pushed our ISIS and the battle for Manilla where McArthur pushed out the Japanese. Both featured an entrenched enemy in an urban environment who used civilians as shields.
Mosul: 120k IDF, 12k ISIS. 5000 civilian deaths. Manilla: 35000 US troops vs 12,500 Japanese and 4,500 Philippine soldiers. 100,000 civilian deaths (McCarthur did not allow the use of air support or artillery for much of the fighting)
2023 Gaza: 150k Israelis vs 50k Hamas and related fighters. 9,000 deaths reported by Hamas.
Given the battle for Mosul as a low point we'd expect 40,000-50,000 civilian deaths. Given the battle for Manilla we'd expect 300,000-400,000 deaths.

The reality is Israeli's civilian toll is now exceeding these numbers, at only a year in to their operations. They will likely double that number before they consider the conflict done. That's high, horrifically high.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-death-toll-how-many-palestinians-has-israels-campaign-killed-2024-07-25/

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Zipz@reddit

Lolllllllllll what a cope out.

Both matter it’s funny how you try to change it so it doesn’t.

It’s embarrassing that you did that

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zbobet2012@reddit

I'm response to your edit:

https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-only-on-ap-islamic-state-group-bbea7094fb954838a2fdc11278d65460

9,000 civilians died in mosul. The IDF has killed 20,000 civilians in Gaza. They are doing very poorly

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Zipz@reddit

One more time

You didn’t give me the number I asked for.

I have to ask. Why don’t you. I know you understand what u an asking

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So based on actual evidence we have to another war in a densely backed city israel is well below the number. Glad we got that straightened out.

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zbobet2012@reddit

So based on actual evidence we have to another war in a densely backed city israel is well below the number. Glad we got that straightened out.

A casualty and a death are not the same thing. Please, work on your reading comprehesion.

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Zipz@reddit

Zipz@reddit

Funny how you are ignoring the rate which is what I asked for.

You aren’t giving me that. It’s funny because we both know it shows you are wrong.

How many militants were killed compared to civilians in both situations……

If you aren’t going to answer the question I asked you don’t have a point.

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5QGL@reddit

105,052–114,731 violent civilian deaths compiled from commercial news media, NGO and official reports Over 162,000 civilian and combatant deaths

So you are incorrect on absolute figures (105k in Iraq vs fewer than 40k in Gaza) and the relative figures are about the same even though Gaza is more densely populated and Hamas are deliberately using human shields. (ratio of civilians to militants killed being about 2:1).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War

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zbobet2012@reddit

Sometimes I forgot reddit is mathematically illiterate and doesn't know about regressing common factors like population size and sample period.

Iraq has more civilians and the involved fighting forces where large. Iraq occurred over more time. Iraq's peak rate of civillan causalities was around 30k/anum. Over a population of 30million (at the time). Gaza is experiencing a death rate of 20k/anum in civilians on a population of 2million. Israel is killing civilians at \~10x the rate of the coalition in Iraq.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/269729/documented-civilian-deaths-in-iraq-war-since-2003/

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Hyndis@reddit

It's always driven me nuts that the coalition in Iraq managed to operate with so many less casualties among civilians.

Israel is being downright gentle in Gaza compared to the coalition in Iraq. And keep in mind, the ~40,000 dead number that Hamas gives mingles civilians with Hamas fighters, so the total number of dead civilians is somewhere less than the 40,000 number Hamas uses.

Approximately 200,000: The number of Iraqi civilians killed in the war.

https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/meetthepressblog/iraq-war-numbers-rcna75762

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zbobet2012@reddit

You have to both correct for timespan and population sizes.

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whatisthisnowwhat1@reddit

Kinda missing the lead on that number

Human Cost of Post-9/11 Wars: Direct War Deaths in Major War Zones, Afghanistan & Pakistan (Oct. 2001 – Aug. 2021); Iraq (March 2003 – March 2023); Syria (Sept. 2014 – March 2023); Yemen (Oct. 2002-Aug. 2021) and Other Post-9/11 War Zones

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LysenkoistReefer@reddit

Israel's near total disregard for proportionality is a war crime.

How has Israel exhibited a near total disregard for proportionality?

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ShiningMagpie@reddit

Nobody has ever rigoroudly defined proportionality. You are comparing harm to civilians to the military advantage you gain from thr aftion. Literal apples to oranges. And it gets even harder to compare dince the the harm to civilians is measured across all future time and the military advantage could be measured at any tike in the future. And it changes as time moves.

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Brushies10-4@reddit

Please stop making excuses for literal terrorists. It’s a bad look

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PapaverOneirium@reddit

I’m just clarifying the Geneva Convention since you seem to misunderstand. In my explanation it is clear that the ISIS cell in the example is committing a war crime. That just doesn’t mean you can just do war crimes back. It’s pretty simple honestly.

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Hyndis@reddit

Deliberately using civilians and/or civilian structures for military purposes removes any protection afforded to them. They become valid military targets. This is specifically so that belligerents aren't doing things like hiding bunkers under apartment complexes.

Eliminate them how exactly and with what?

Please do tell us how because the minute Israel does anything like that, the rest of you terrorist supporters would start screaming about war crimes again.

Cool. So should the US put kindergartens on top of all their nuclear ICBM silos to protect them from attack?

Seems like you've found a winning strategy there with all your high minded morality

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BlackJesus1001@reddit

IHL already covers this, a nuclear silo would be a major threat and excellent justification for targeting in spite of civilians.

A bunker below a major hospital that may or may not be occupied, that didn't contain more than a few small arms, occupied by a force that is manifestly incapable of mounting a serious counterattack.

Yes it is almost certainly still a warcrime to target that hospital repeatedly.

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Dr_SnM@reddit

No, the war crime is hiding under the hospital and making civilians legitimate targets.

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BlackJesus1001@reddit

Hiding under a hospital is a war crime, it does not make civilians legitimate targets and so targeting that hospital without results proportional to the cost is also a war crime.

There's no blanket immunity from humanitarian law for putting civilians nearby, nor does it matter if both sides are following it.

To be clear we were discussing a base of sorts under a hospital. You're not really going to be shot at by an underground bunker, unless Hamas has ICBM-like missile tubes in unaware of?

So I'm not seeing the urgency to "fire back" there when it includes a hospital being destroyed

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fridiculou5@reddit

we were discussing a base of sorts under a hospital

We are discussing the use of a hospital as a location to facilitate the killing of another civilian population.

In 2023, Hamas fired 20,000 rockets into Israel. None of those have any precision or aim.

They were fired from schools, hospitals, refugee camps and other civilian areas. Rockets are deadly. Today, Hezbollah killed 2 Israeli civilians, despite all the protections Israel has. Without bunkers, without missile interception, there would be 100x as many dead on the Israeli side.

The general premise that Israel was operating on for decades, is that with strong defenses, occasional civilian death from Hamas and Hezbollah attacks, is not worth pursuing militants that are embedded and in power of impoverished society.

100000000%

What is your plan exactly? Let anyone who embeds themselves in civilian centers just do whatever the fuck they want? How about holding them accountable for breaking the Geneva convention in using shields?

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HiggsUAP@reddit

A targeted raid?

Creating your own cave system into theirs?

Thermobaric grenades into the tunnels?

Are you implying that if the local populace are supporters then they're acceptable collateral damage? Why's it matter if they cooperate?

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meister2983@reddit

Well, yes.

Why's it matter if they cooperate?

Not exactly possible to conduct a targeted raid if the populace isn't going to get out of the way, will tip off the terrorists, etc.

Even less possible to do a targeted raid if the entire Atlanta is governed by ISIS, which is the more appropriate analogy here. (just look at how many civilians died in Mosul for an analogy)

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TheObeseWombat@reddit

In that case you should take up your objection with the Geneva convention, which does not have a "they believe bad things" exemption for their sections on protecting civilian lives.

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meister2983@reddit

Yes, but you are missing the nuance in my post. I never said they forfeit rights; I said the military op is not possible

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TheObeseWombat@reddit

Most reports at the time of the battle were in the range of 10.000 observed civilian casualties. So already right now, the Israeli operation in Gaza is way beyond that. And will continue to climb, seeing how bombs are still being dropped.

The highest estimate for Mosul is 40.000, which is an estimate made quite a bit after the battle was over, when all the bodies were able to be pulled out of the rubble, and starvation and health issues took their toll. That number is already almost matched by the numbers in Gaza, and there have been no clean up efforts yet whatsoever, so there is certainly a large amount of casualties yet to be discovered.

https://www.gazahealthcareletters.org/usa-letter-oct-2-2024 According to these healthcare workers, that 'Hamas in hospital' thingy doesn't happen anyway, or if it does, it's of a far, far smaller magnitude than Israel has claimed as justification for bombing them.

"The 99 signatories to this letter spent a combined 254 weeks inside Gaza’s largest hospitals and clinics. We wish to be absolutely clear: not once did any of us see any type of Palestinian militant activity in any of Gaza’s hospitals or other healthcare facilities.

We urge you to see that Israel has systematically and deliberately devastated Gaza’s entire healthcare system, and that Israel has targeted our colleagues in Gaza for torture, disappearance, and murder."

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HiggsUAP@reddit

If the hospital is unusable/no longer in use as a medical facility then it's just an empty building and outside the purview of this discussion

Yeah that's not going to work

[Citation needed]

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fridiculou5@reddit

It's never ok, except when the alternative is worse- everyone you know and love is killed instead.

And that's the jihadi mindset- sacrificing oneself to inflict as much pain as possible is an honor.

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HiggsUAP@reddit

And how exactly is one underground base such an existential threat to a military?

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fridiculou5@reddit

existential threat to a military

HiggsUAP@reddit

About as insane of a logical jump as you made

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HKEY_LOVE_MACHINE@reddit

Welcome to war.

There is a reason why terrorism is quite controversial, because it causes plenty of civilian deaths, especially the ones they use as shields.

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JaThatOneGooner@reddit

Everyone keeps saying this and yet the Israeli military doesn’t even provide evidence anymore

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saranowitz@reddit

Evidence of what exactly? Hamas soldiers dress like civilians and announce soldier deaths as civilians. What evidence would need to be shown and to whom? Who gives a shit? Anything israel says will just be doubted anyways. Just let them keep doing what they need to do to eviscerate Hamas and Hezbollah to protect their borders.

Point is you can't discuss politics of Palestine while ignoring Hamas, they either need to be on the table or be eliminated. Neither seems viable.

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avolcando@reddit

and the end result is well over 40,000 dead civilians and children

Crazy how there's no Hamas in Gaza, and every death is a civilian

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JaThatOneGooner@reddit

More like there’s a difference between combatant deaths and civilian deaths. Idk how over 13,000 kids are combatants and shouldn’t be counted as civilians but maybe there’s something I’m not understanding?

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avolcando@reddit

More like there’s a difference between combatant deaths and civilian deaths.

Yes, there is, so why are you acting like everyone who died was a civilian?

. Idk how over 13,000 kids are combatants and shouldn’t be counted as civilians but maybe there’s something I’m not understanding?

You're clearly trying to imply that everyone who died in Gaza was a civilian, now you're trying to walk it back for some reason, without actually acknowledging what you wrote originally.

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Israeli intelligence services have studied civilian casualty figures released by the Hamas-run Ministry of Health in Gaza and concluded the figures were generally accurate, despite earlier public claims by U.S. and Israeli officials that the ministry’s statistics are manipulated.

From a Vice article quoting Israeli intelligence services

The World Health Organization voiced full confidence in Gaza Ministry of Health death toll figures on Tuesday, saying they were actually getting closer to confirming the scale of losses after Israel questioned a change in the numbers.

From a Reuters article on the subject

Israeli officials have said the figures are suspect because of Hamas’ control over government in Gaza. Foreign Ministry spokesperson Oren Mamorstein said the numbers were manipulated and “do not reflect the reality on the ground”. However, Israel’s military has also accepted in briefings that the overall Gaza casualty numbers are broadly reliable.

Even the IDF admits the number is accurate.

If we’re arguing if people that died really even existed when mass graves are being dug up for the victims of this campaign, then your bias really shines through here. If you have nothing to add to this conversation, then your attempt to dehumanize and delegitimize the death of civilians in Gaza has truly failed.

Be better.

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Strawman argument. Nice try though

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ChaosDancer@reddit

Absolutely they should really adopt the Palestinian west bank behaviour, because nothing really happens in west bank, absolutely nothing.

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meister2983@reddit

Considering that the largest Arab protests were over the death of 200 people (inflated to 500) at a hospital supposedly bombed by Israel (actually by Palestinian militants), we could conclude Israel is not exactly surrounded by evidence based societies.

So why waste the time if it isn't going to change beliefs anyway?

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JaThatOneGooner@reddit

Because if there isn’t actual certainty, you end up killing innocent civilians. And there wasn’t. Israel also walked back their claim that it was a Hamas rocket that actually hit their own hospital, but by then Israel had bombed 30 other hospitals.

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meister2983@reddit

Israel also walked back their claim that it was a Hamas rocket that actually hit their own hospital

Citation needed. And I believe blame was on pij.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ahli_Arab_Hospital_explosion

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JaThatOneGooner@reddit

My mistake, I think I may have misremembered something I’ve read previously about Israel walking back their claims. Regardless, forensics analysis dispute the claim the hospital was a result of a misfired rocket. They even mention independent investigations by the NYTs and WP corroborated their findings.

One of those things that we’ll never know for sure, but hopefully at the end of this conflict there will be an in depth investigation as to the extent of the death and destruction in Gaza.

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meister2983@reddit

Forensic Analysis seems to be the sole dissenter here and even they are ruling inconclusive.

WP definitely ruled that it was not an airstrike.

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DancesWithAnyone@reddit

No need to. People choose to believe it because they want it to be true, as it absolves them of any guilt. The more people that are killed under such justifications, the harder they will argue for it - because what if it turns out they were wrong? Not a great look or feeling, that.

At this point people will even champion the Human Shields™ argument for Israel, so why bother making it themselves? It is an immensely dangerous rhetoric, under which you can justify anything, but here we are.

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soulhooker@reddit

Shut the fuck up with this nonsense. The people killed at these so called “paramilitary bases” are almost entirely, like over 99 percent, are non combatants. What, is Hamas firing rockets from working hospitals? Are they firing rockets in the middle of refugee camps? Is Hamas finding journalists and babies and health workers and just telling them to form a shield about them? Shut the fuck with this absolute nonsense. You have no idea what a human shield is. Acting like Hamas is operating in the waiting room of a broken down hospital, right next to the MRI, or in the children’s ward, strapping babies to the rockets they’re firing from the inside of a hospital or school. And what about the hostages? Even if they were in refugee camps, and even if you think Palestinian lives are worthless, what about the Israeli hostages? You’re saying a military entity with billions of dollars a month can’t even do simple hostage rescues, and not only that, because they can’t do these rescues they resort to just bombing everyone?

And doesn’t Hamas operate in tunnels, anyways? Isn’t that we are constantly being told, that Hamas has a whole networks of tunnels? So why on earth would they be in the areas that are constantly massacred?

It makes 0 sense from any angle you look at it, and I will continue to shame you and others into oblivion for even mentioning this view.

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cheeseless@reddit

I don't think you know what a human shield is either, since you seem to believe it requires physical contact with the terrorists or their equipment.

simple hostage rescues

If you think such a thing exists you are hopelessly underequipped to understand any military conflict.

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soulhooker@reddit

Human shields do not require physical contact with an individual, human shields involve putting civilians (in this context, their own civilians) purposely in harms way for the sake of increasing their chances of survival. In the context of the comment ’to whom I’m responding, he was implying that Hamas used hospitals and schools as human shields, which does not really make any sense given the death toll of non combatants in these super vulnerable and poorly-funded hospitals and schools you so callously would call “military targets”.

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cheeseless@reddit

Oh hey, you're so close. Why do you think these civilians might have died? I'll answer for you. Because Hamas used their facilities, purposefully, to store weapons and personnel. They were treating these people as human shields.

It's a military target if it contains Hamas-owned equipment and Hamas soldiers, even if they're forcing civilians into human shields. Because making that kind of target inviolable results in greater losses, every time, for both Palestinians and Israelis. That's why human shields are a war crime, and Israel's strikes against these targets aren't.

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DancesWithAnyone@reddit

The Human Shields thing has been used as justification for bombing hospitals. According to these 99 foreign healthcare workers, they've never seen Palestinian militants being active in any hospital since this conflict started:

Source: https://www.gazahealthcareletters.org/usa-letter-oct-2-2024

Is it possible that it could have happened sometime, somewhere, in some hospital? Yes, I'll concede that possibility. But far from the extent often claimed and used as justification.

Thormeaxozarliplon@reddit

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/hostages-killed-hamas-night-forces-reached-tunnel-israel-says-rcna170445

https://www.reddit.com/r/2ndYomKippurWar/comments/191hbpk/new_photos_of_israeli_female_hostages_still_in/

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/yazidi-woman-freed-gaza-us-led-operation-after-decade-captivity-2024-10-03/

wake up

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soulhooker@reddit

None of these articles are at all relevant to any of my claims. All you’ve shown is that Hamas took hostages, which is something we are all already aware of. In fact not only this, we can make the claim that the Hamas’ hostages were not treated worse than the Palestinian civilians themselves by Israel.

regarding the first article, suppose it’s even true in the first place, it’s not coming from a reputable source.

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loggy_sci@reddit

Hamas has not been using child suicide bombers this whole time. Whoever told you that was incorrect.

You’re excusing Hamas and it’s so weird. They are horrible people.

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soulhooker@reddit

When pro-Israeli people on social media talk about Hamas, they really just borrow ideas they got from actual extremist groups and apply them to Hamas, despite time and then again, Hamas proves itself to functionally be a resistance force that has expertly killed IDF war criminals. They are what I would classify as a morally dubious entity, but not even close to a terrorist force. Ukrainian and Russian soldiers have committed far more war crimes than Hamas, and they aren’t classified as terrorists. It seems fair to me, until Hamas blows up a hospital or kills a journalist or argues on live camera that rape is an acceptable punishment for kidnapped civilians, then I’ll start treating them as the “dirty Muslim extremists who were raised by Hitler” that you think they may be.

Others have constantly posted that Hamas uses child soldiers, which is unproven, and weird cause in Gaza, every child who has lost something will want to fight back. They’ve been telling me about widespread, systematic rape which has been debunked. Hamas doesn’t even use suicide bombers, most guerilla forces do not.

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loggy_sci@reddit

When pro-Israeli people on social media talk about Hamas, they really just borrow ideas they got from actual extremist groups and apply them to Hamas

I’m not doing that. Hamas is a militant Islamic Palestinian nationalist group that engages in terrorist attacks and has committed crimes against humanity. You can try to make them seem reasonable but they aren’t.

I’ll start treating them as the “dirty Muslim extremists who were raised by Hitler” that you think they may be.

I didn’t say this. You’re arguing against a point I didn’t make, aka arguing in bad faith.

Others have constantly posted that Hamas uses child soldiers, which is unproven, and weird cause in Gaza, every child who has lost something will want to fight back.

“Hamas don’t use them, but they don’t stop them”. Seems like they don’t have control over Gaza.

They’ve been telling me about widespread, systematic rape which has been debunked.

Sexual violence was used by Hamas on Oct 7th. This has been proven. You’re using the term “systematic” as a way to hedge your poor arguments.

Hamas doesn’t even use suicide bombers, most guerilla forces do not.

Hamas has used suicide bombers in the past, and they’ve allowed PIJ to conduct such attacks out of Gaza.

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GeshtiannaSG@reddit

They murdered the ones who didn’t go to extremes, and now surprised Pikachu when they become increasingly extreme.

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ary31415@reddit

I don't really understand how people can be so short-sighted as to defend this – by doing so you're implicitly justifying Israeli war crimes in Gaza. Either it's okay to target civilians or it's not (and I would hope everyone agrees it's 'not').

If you think suicide bombings or the October 7th attack were okay, then you've surrendered the moral high ground – and I'm fine with an attitude of "both sides are doing horrific things", but if we've moved beyond debating morality, then the only question left is the military high ground, which Israel clearly has. Defending these tactics just gives more fuel to the Israeli right-wing who wants to flatten Gaza; after all if we're not worried about morality in tactics, there's nothing stopping them really.

And yes, the same arguments about fueling extremism on the opposite side could be said about the IDF, which is why this is such a vicious cycle, but at least we, as third-party observers, should be insisting on higher standards from BOTH sides here, rather than contributing to that vicious cycle ourselves.

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roydez@reddit

The source for all these claims by WSJ:

Arab intelligence officials say he sent a directive to a senior operative: Now is the time to revive suicide bombings.

Seen too many bullshit stories that were sourced back to anonymous "officials".

WSJ has access to "Arab intelligence officials" who know what Sinwar is saying?

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buoninachos@reddit

So war is a complete psychopath. It's certainly out of character for him. He's a truly despicable person and he should never have been released from jail

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It was the suicide bombings targeting Israeli civilians that got the wall put up around Gaza

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JeffThrowaway80@reddit

Is it really that radical to blow yourself up when everyone around you is being blown up by Israel anyway? If you don't want people who are willing and ready to kill themselves maybe stop murdering their entire families so they still have a reason to live.

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cheeseless@reddit

Any ideology that uses suicide attacks as a means of military or terroristic offensive is morally worse to a substantial degree than the equivalent without suicide attacks.

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roydez@reddit

So if during fighting one side sends a suicide bomber who kills 2 people then the other side retaliates by nuking and completely erasing the other side the side of the suicide bomber is morally worse?

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saranowitz@reddit

Is it really that radical to blow yourself up when everyone around you is being blown up by Israel anyway? When the option is stay put living in constant fear of getting blown up for no reason or choosing to blow yourself up for a purpose it’s easy to see why people would choose the latter. If you don’t want people who are willing and ready to kill themselves maybe stop murdering their entire families so they still have a reason to live.

Just pasting this here so /u/JeffThrowaway80 can’t erase it later, because it’s one of the most confidently naive takes I’ve ever seen on Reddit.

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ShepardCommander001@reddit

Solid move. He did erase it. Good work

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breadgluvs@reddit

Reddit moment.

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Yes it is that radical. There's a time to hold em and a time to fold em. If kamikaze is what you're looking at, it's time to fold em.

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ChaosDancer@reddit

You should really go the Ukraine subreddit and say that to them. I am sure their responce will be educational or better yet go to worldnews and say that.

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vegeful@reddit

Damn, this comment so crazy.

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markbadly@reddit

So people from the border communities near Gaza and the Nova festival should shoot every single person in gaza?

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Throwaway5432154322@reddit

“Is it really that radical to carry out suicide bombings on behalf of a fundamentalist militia”

Hasn't that been Iran, Sinwar and Hamas' intention all along?

Go into Israel and do something so horrible that they must react while having arranged things so that reaction will inevitably cause mass casualties.

What is the difference between sending out suicide bombers and using the lives of your own people as propaganda tools?

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CaveRanger@reddit

Violent megalomaniac

This is getting out of hand. Now there are two of them!

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kingbadjuju@reddit

When did the hasbara bots take over this subreddit?

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