What happens if Picard just says “oh yeah, five lights. Totally” right at the beginning of the interrogation?
Posted by Hairy_Stinkeye@reddit | TNG | View on Reddit | 124 comments
Does Gul Madred then have to de-break him so he can re-break him later? Opinions of torture professionals welcome!
Material_Pea1820@reddit
It’s like the break room sequence in severance … doesnt count unless you meant it
ClingonKrinkle@reddit
It's based on the torture scene in 1984 and in the book Winston Smith does do this and gets tortured for just telling his interrogator what he wants to hear.
LordCouchCat@reddit
Yes. O'Brien, the interrogator, makes Winston try to really believe what he is supposed to.
In the TNG scene there isn't really a context for this, though. In 1984 it's about how the Party is going to have total control forever because there are no martyrs; all the confessions are true. This is connected to the Party's control of reality itself. The Party are not liars, they are postmodernists. O'Brien argues that there is no objective reality, only the text - which they control. They have always been at war with Eastasia.
Major-Associate-5359@reddit
The party are liars though. And evil too. They don't control reality, only people's perceptions.
inb4 perception is reality
LordCouchCat@reddit
Well, from our point of view. Orwell wrote that the book was a satire satirizing the intellectual implications of totalitarianism. Of course it's about a lot of things. O'Brien asks Smith whether the past exists. This is a significant philosophical question. Smith, like many people, hasn't thought about it but argues that the past exists in memories and records. But in that case, O'Brien point out, it only exists in the form the Party creates. This is one of the problems with postmodernism, of course.
Similarly there are no scientific laws, except for the limited purposes the Party wants them for weapons research, and they're only a matter of convenience. If I think I float off the ground, and you think I do, says O'Brien (I think this was his example) then I do. The Party controls the whole universe - the stars are just lights in the sky.
Are the Party liars? It depends. They practice "doublethink", being able to hold contradictory opinions. This seems impossible except that most of us have some experience of it at least in small things.
Orwell, of course, did believe in an independent reality. But the Stalinists and Nazis did so only with qualifications, and 1984 takes it to the limit. Postmodernism revived scepticism about reality (il n'y a pas de hors-texte) and we have the politics of "alternative facts" now.
CoconutDust@reddit
Weak / false / deflection. They are liars and use force, threat, deceit, because they are liars.
That has nothing to do with it. Postmodernism doesn’t mean “the modern world of chaotic info/lies”.
Your comment first says they’re only liars “from our point of view.” The comment then uses a clear example of lying. Going along with a lie, for reasons, does not mean it’s not a lie.
It’s a very misleading comment if it was trying to say that lies, aka alternative facts (or cherry-picked deflections, if not outright lies), are not lies if someone believes them.
LordCouchCat@reddit
I'm trying to explain the concepts Orwell is exploring. I presume you have read his own essays. I agree with you, of course, in rejecting the Party's ideas.
On the links between postmodernism and the post-truth type of populism, see Aviezer Tucker, and the book Forland and Mitrovic eds, The Povert of Antirealism London 2023 (part 3) - this book is open source ie free download.
lilolered@reddit
Really enjoying my increased chocolate rations.
APC_ChemE@reddit
Yes, thats right we have always been at war with Euroasia.
YetAnotherJake@reddit
There wasn't really anything Winston could do at that point. It was a doubleplus-ungood situation ☹️
norbertus@reddit
"torture scene"
i.e., the entire last third of the book...
ClingonKrinkle@reddit
Well there's different torture scenes, there's also the bit with the rats.
Exsangwyn@reddit
We’ve had one torture, yes, but what about second torture?
LegoRobinHood@reddit
There _ are _ four _ tortures!
(Horrified Pippin noises)
BABarracus@reddit
Elevensies it is then
Annanake420@reddit
I don't think he knows about second torture.
pfamsd00@reddit
Room 101
ThatDamnedHansel@reddit
I think you mean 101sies
Rocketboy1313@reddit
I tried to find the exact quote where Winston is told something like, "it is not enough to say it, you have to believe it because the Party says it."
questionablecupcak3@reddit
FUN a confirmed answer!
Stenbolt@reddit
Gul Madred knows what he's doing. He would continue to torture Picard just for the hell of it, because he (Madred) finds it fun.
bluelifesacrifice@reddit
So long as the torturer doesn't get actionable information, you win. Nothing else matters. Assume you're already dead.
The biggest problem with torture in fiction is that it doesn't work in real life the way we see it portrayed in fiction. Interrogation can work, but even then you can't really trust what's said by the person. If they committed a crime or they think you are the bad guy, you'll get fake confessions and lies.
For the scene, Madred basically has to figure out who he's dealing with. Will Picard play it strong? creative? Sly? Lie? Charm? After that baseline he's trying to change Picard with abuse, limits, shame and knowledge. Testing Picard in this way and that.
Picard plays the open fighter of integrity, which is what the show portrays Starfleet. We see it constantly. Even when a lie or scam would be an easier way, Starfleet picks integrity. Which is why everyone both hates and loves Starfleet. Factions will think there's no way Starfleet is this good, everyone is the same, everyone lies and cheats and steals. Everyone is just as rotten and corrupt as they are. Picard is Starfleet.
Madred is trying to twist Picard for anything. If Picard says 5 lights, he can then show the world that, "See! Starfleet lies too to save itself! They are no different than us!"
At the very end, Madred is out of time and ideas and tries to strike a bargain with intellectual pursuits as the final scam of appealing to Picards image of himself as this intellectual "in the know" kind of person and fails because Picard knows very well that he's human, he makes mistakes and relies on others for the success of Starfleet. Not a shred of arrogance.
What really made this even so well written was how real the final confession was. Picard confesses that he started to think there were five lights. Believing there were really five lights. Picard was truthful the entire time and torture wasn't winning to make of any use of Picard in any real way such as information gathering or propaganda, but the state of helplessness we see with false confessions where torture always gets the result of a desired confession regardless of it's integrity. You broke the person, not the spirit.
Great writing too. Picard has been through hell and still pushes on.
norbertus@reddit
This is largely compatible with the findings of the Kubark interrogration manual
https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB122/CIA%20Kubark%201-60.pdf
which was largely crowdsourced by unsuspecting reearchers (and some fellow travelers) who were paid to study human stress repsonse through a series of CIA front organizations like the Human Ecology Fund
https://wikileaks.manalejandro.com/file/AT-june07-Price-PT1.pdf
In the main, their findings indicate: torture is unreliable because some people will say anything to make it end; torture is unreliable because many torture subjects under-estimate their ability to enure pain; and torture is unreliable because, under stress, many people who would prefer to comply are unable to recall important details correctly.
The document also concludes that attempts by the interrogator to "befriend" the subject are more successful. Often, physical coercion hardens the resolve of the subject, or embitters them, making them less cooperative.
The goal of physical brutality in the context of torture is not to obtain information, but to induce "regression" psychologically -- the erasure of the individual personality and will by making it irrefutable that the subject is utterly dependant upon the captor in all regards.
Which is to say, pain, control, and domination are the goals of torture, not the extracting of information.
bloodfist@reddit
I am not sure if it's in the Kubark manual (will read if I can but no time right now) but I've read an excerpt from one of the government agencies guide on surviving torture, which indicates the "befriending" thing works the other way too. Create a rapport with the torturer and you may get it slightly easier. Your chances of surviving go up a tiny bit if the torturer likes you.
It's funny how even in the worst situations, good old human connection is still the best option. Biggest lesson I've had as a teacher and a parent too. It's just roundly proven that making people feel bad doesn't make them want to do what you want them too. It can be a tool to keep someone from doing something, but it's pretty clear by now that if you want someone to do something you should make them feel good about doing it. And that amazingly even includes telling you how to disarm the bomb or stop cutting your ears off.
CoconutDust@reddit
That sounds like nonsense, since a person in that position will be a sociopath and/or sadist by defintion.
It’s like saying, “Befriend the executioner! He’ll let you wiggle out, then. Good ol’ human nature.” No.
We’re talking about torture, not a legal above-board interview/questioning or interrogation.
bloodfist@reddit
It's definitely not saying it works every time. Just that it is the most successful strategy. I wish I could remember the source but it only raised the odds by a small percentage. And since this was a spy agency, it was pretty low odds to begin with.
But those aren't the only reasons people get kidnapped, tortured, or held against their will. In many situations, not everyone there is necessarily a sociopath. For example there may be a guard that is just doing their job. Having just one person looking out for you even a little bit can make all the difference.
And even psychopaths like to have pets sometimes. If you provide value to them by making them laugh, it can make them want that to keep going and buy you time.
But yeah, it's not like "this one weird trick" or something, it just seems to work a little better than anything else I guess.
RHX_Thain@reddit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=lb4y7FYy9wA
Or telling jokes, lol.
bloodfist@reddit
dude! Thanks for this video that was great. Like a friend telling you a great story over a beer. That was really fascinating.
Definitely works. I don't really know how to talk about it without sounding braggy or something but I've done a fair amount of traveling and gotten into some run-ins with the law and in some really sketchy situations. But I crack jokes when I get nervous like that dude and it is a really useful thing.
I'm interested to check out some more of his videos, seems like my kind of thing. Thanks!
RHX_Thain@reddit
I've been in the exact same situations travelling globally lol. Mostly it's cartels and Marxist leaders, but never been detained longer than arranging a bribe.
Evan is amazing and Rare Earth is a treasure. I'm a lifer. Every new video is an occasion. When I unfuck my finances I'll join his Patreon.
bloodfist@reddit
Damn sounds like you've some adventures too! My only one on that scale was when I was in the car for a hit and run in Mexico. Had a full ass road block set up for us, M-16 shoved in my face. The wrong person ended up in jail, took three days of bribes to get her out. Favorite part was when the embassy lawyer told us the truck needed to disappear, handed us GPS coordinates for the middle of the desert, and said to leave it there because that's his bribe. It was just so businesslike.
Bet you have some great time stories, wish we could grab a beer and swap tales lol. But good luck with the finances, hope you get them unfucked to do more traveling! And the patreon 😊
RHX_Thain@reddit
Oh yeah, exactly the same down in rural Sonora and Oaxaca. Documentary crews filming human trafficking cases ended up stuck paying for bribes at gunpoint by the very people we were filming for the crimes they were actively committing and later denied to our faces like it never happened.
Then US wonders why people are fleeing across their Southern Border...
bloodfist@reddit
Man no kidding. Worked around the north side of that border a lot, encountered crossers and worked with border patrol a few times. The agents I met were adamant that their primary job was saving brave people from dying in the desert. They hated that they had to send them back. They were proud of catching cartel drug mules and sex traffickers but felt that most of their job was search and rescue and didn't really want to think about what happened afterwards.
Glad that's all that happened to you though, I've heard some really fucked up stories from Sonora. Friend of a friend got kidnapped by the cartel for a week there. Such a shame because it's such a beautiful country and culture in every other way. I would happily retire to Yucatán.
Documentary crew sounds like such a fascinating job. Worked on anything I can look up? That sounds like something I'd like to watch.
amglasgow@reddit
The goal of torture is torture. The goal of power is power. -- Orwell
CoconutDust@reddit
“A healthy person does not torture.” -Carl Jung
HungryMorlock@reddit
"Torture's for the torturer. Or the guy giving the orders to the torturer. You torture for the good times, we should all admit that. It's useless as a means of getting information." -Trevor Phillips
PeckerNash@reddit
Absolute power is even more fun! -Simon Tavaglia, BOFH.
socksonachicken@reddit
Ahh the rare bastard operator from hell reference.
CordeCosumnes@reddit
Is that Bastard Operator From Hell?
LtPowers@reddit
A classic of the genre.
MetalTrek1@reddit
I read that an interrogator for the US Army during WW2 once said all he needed to get information out of the Nazis was a pot of coffee, a deck of cards, and a pack of cigarettes. So it seems that torture does NOT work and befriending the subject goes much farther. I also remember Sen. John McCain saying that when his Vietnamese captors asked him for names, he gave them the defensive lineup of the NY Jets or something Iike that. So it does the torturer no good either, since they're just as likely to get false info.
surloc_dalnor@reddit
I've read one of the most effective ways to resist is to simply start making shit up early on so that if they do break you they won't know and they'll keep at it forcing you to continue making up shit. The hope being they'll will give up, spend waste a lot time chasing false leads, you'll lose track of the truth, or they will never believe the truth when they hear it.
bluelifesacrifice@reddit
Yep lol. This is a great addition thank you.
xxgsr02@reddit
Section 31 has entered the chat
Hairy_Stinkeye@reddit (OP)
Well said
CibrecaNA@reddit
Probably get him to share Federation secrets or record messages for Federation consumption.
CoconutDust@reddit
OP didn’t ask “Why are they holding Picard captive and torturing him?” Everyone knows the answer to that.
The OP asked about the purpose of the lights question.
CibrecaNA@reddit
I think the idea is that if someone immediately surrenders, you just use them. Like if you kidnap someone who cooperates then you just exploit their cooperation.
The purpose of the light questions is to get cooperation from Picard.
ConfrontationalWhisk@reddit
I assumed that the point was not to “break” him in the traditional sense, but to test whether he was telling them the truth and consequently whether they could get reliable intel from him. At whatever point Picard showed himself willing to lie to avoid torture—or showed that he’d lost contact with reality—then any secrets he might reveal couldn’t be trusted. I assumed they would have killed him as soon as he said there were 5 lights.
Madred compliments Picard’s sharp mind multiple times. Maybe he was even telling the truth when he said he would enjoy debating Picard on topics of philosophy and history. If so, Madred might justify keeping him alive and imprisoned—but only if Picard’s mind remained sharp and he continued to hold his own.
The torture scene seems to be based on the one from 1984, but Cardassia’s goals are different from those of Big Brother. They don’t need to brainwash Picard to assimilate him into the empire; they need him to give them accurate information about the Federation. It would be counterproductive for them to break his mind the way O’Brien breaks Winston.
Various-Pizza3022@reddit
In later depictions of Cardassians, we see that the goal of compliance in the party line by any means necessary is very much their thing - the mindset behind the scene in 1984.
Taking that at face value along with the reality that torture is a terrible method to get actionable intelligence about the Federation: you can read it as Gul Madred trying to interrogate Picard using methods he applied to other Cardassians without realizing the difference in desired outcome.
ConfrontationalWhisk@reddit
That’s a good point about the Cardassians, but they went to a lot of trouble to get Picard and have apparently thought this through carefully. Gul Madred strikes me as too shrewd not to know what he’s doing. One logical possibility is that he’s repurposing an old Cardassian torture technique to fit his needs for Picard. If a Cardassian subject “broke” and said there were five lights, that would be the ideal outcome the ideal outcome and Madred would keep going. If Picard broke and said there were five lights, that would mean he wasn’t a reliable source of information.
CoconutDust@reddit
False. Lights are irrelevant, there his answer about lights tells them nothing about anything.
It’s true that if he’s incapacitated then he’s less useful for information, but that has nothing to do with the lights question. He can change his answer for his own imagined reasons…they have medical technology to understand his state.
If he said “there’s 10 lights” they don’t close up shop and say “Oh darn, he’s nuts! We’re done then.”
ConfrontationalWhisk@reddit
I’m saying that the lights question is just a test for his truthfulness. Madred asks a question he knows the answer to and coerces Picard into giving an obviously false answer. If Picard gives in, then he can’t be trusted as a source of intel—he just proved he’s willing to say whatever Madred wants to hear. Either that, or he’s lost contact with reality and actually believes the torturer’s lies (as begins to happen at the end right before Picard’s rescue). Either way, he’s now useless for intel. So yes, the lights themselves don’t matter—they could have asked any other question to get the same result.
I’m not sure what you mean by this?
They brought him there for information. If they can’t trust anything he says, why waste more time on him? They’d either kill him or put him in prison or a labor camp.
GonzoI@reddit
The goal was to dehumanize him through all the methods used. He let his daughter see Picard suffering, he talked about him as an inferior, he tried to torture him into lying, he lied about things to imply things outside were worse for him than they were so he wouldn't have hope, etc. There is no "de-break", even torturing him after he lies would still be part of breaking him. The point is to make him disconnect with his sense of self and thus the moral compulsions keeping him from giving up information.
As others noted, it doesn't actually work that way and people will still say whatever they think will stop you from making them hurt even if you break them. But throughout history people keep trying the same thing over and over again thinking they'll get different results. And the Cardassians are no different.
CoconutDust@reddit
That’s because they’re evil sick people.
The goal of torture is torture.
GonzoI@reddit
I wish it were true, but many people genuinely believe it works. Even now when it's clearly stated by all experts that it doesn't. It still works as a Hollywood trope where the character gets tortured offscreen and information is trusted afterward without that trust being broken. And people still support it being done by our governments out of sight under the false notion that it will do something for security.
indigo348411@reddit
That would be breaking character, Picard was the only freshman in the history of the Academy to win the marathon so he is a man of tremendous willpower and he will resist with his last ounce of strength.
CoconutDust@reddit
Willpower is irrelevant. Resistance is futile. Strength is irrelevant.
(God I hate the borg.)
Sagelegend@reddit
I’ve noticed some comments saying that they would have probably killed him, I don’t think so, I think Madred wanted to break Picard’s pride, because early on he asks if Picard has any ailments he should be aware of.
It wasn’t a test to see if his earlier intel was reliable or not, because they show that he was drugged and asked questions, which he answered truthfully, in a drugged state:
[Interrogation room]
(Picard is being given a truth drug)
MADRED: Your place of birth?
PICARD: La Barre, France.
MADRED: Mother’s name?
PICARD: Yvette Gessard.
MADRED: He’s ready. Keep the serum at that level. What is your current assignment?
PICARD: Special operations on Celtris Three.
MADRED: What is your mission on Celtris Three? PICARD: To seek and destroy a metagenic weapon.
MADRED: How many others were part of this mission?
PICARD: Two.
MADRED: Name and rank?
PICARD: Chief Medical Officer Beverly Crusher. Lieutenant Worf..
They knew the information they had was as reliable as it was going to be, no amount of torture would reveal if the serum was right, as they showed they tested the levels of serum, and Picard literally calls Madred out for it:
PICARD: Torture has never been a reliable means of extracting information. It is ultimately self-defeating as a means of control. One wonders that it’s still practiced.
The episode is telling us that the torture wasn’t about information, nor about confirming his honesty—that’s what the serum was for.
There’s a scene later that shows Madred’s true intention, to make Picard submit and give in to despair, especially since his superiors have told him prior that Picard is to be freed:
[interrogation room]
(Picard has been left alone with the agoniser control pad. He starts to smash it against the desk as Madred enters.)
MADRED: That won’t help. I have many more.
PICARD: Still, it felt good.
MADRED: Enjoy your good feelings while you can. There may not be many more of them. I’ve just received word. There’s been a battle. The Enterprise is burning in space. The invasion of Minos Korva has been successful.
PICARD: I don’t believe you.
MADRED: There’s no need for any further information from you. Our troops were successful in spite of your refusal to help me. You might have saved yourself a great deal of torment by yielding at the beginning.
PICARD: I want to see neutral representative.
MADRED: There is no such person. The word will be that you perished with your crew. No one will ever know that you are here with us, as you will be for a long, long time. You do, however, have a choice. You can live out your life in misery, held here, subject to my whims, or you can live in comfort with good food and warm clothing, women as you desire them, allowed to pursue your studies of philosophy and history. I would enjoy debating with you. You have a keen mind. It’s up to you. A life of ease, of reflection and intellectual challenge, or this.
PICARD: What must I do?
MADRED: Nothing, really. Tell me how many lights you see. How many? How many lights? This is your last chance. The guards are coming. Don’t be a stubborn fool. How many?
(Gul Lemec enters)
LEMEC: You told me he would be ready to go.
MADRED: We had some unfinished business.
LEMEC: Get him cleaned up. A ship is waiting to take him back to the Enterprise. Captain Picard, if you’ll go with the guards, they’ll take care of you.
PICARD: There are four lights!
And scene—this should be self explanatory, it’s what the scenes with Picard and Madred were about. You can feel Madred’s urgency to get Picard to submit knowing he has minutes before his chance is over, but Picard refuses to yield.
They were never going to kill a hostage as valuable as Picard, but a chance to demoralise him, knowing even when he’d be freed, that he would always have the memory of being made to submit? That was priceless—too bad Picard decided his morale wasn’t for sale.
CoconutDust@reddit
Also the guy’s lines clearly say he wants/needs something, is trying to negotiate with Picard. His desperation is clear and he has no evidence for his claims.
Hairy_Stinkeye@reddit (OP)
I really like this take- that the real value in that scenario is to send the captain of the flagship back all fucked up and psychologically compromised. That outcome would be much more useful than some info about a defense grid for a system that the Cardis probably don’t even plan on actually exploiting. It’s totally on brand for them to play the long game of weakening the federation from within rather than to start another costly war to gain what seems to be a pretty insignificant chunk of territory.
CDRChakotay@reddit
He would have forced him to drink Earl Grey Cold. That would have broken Picard 100%.
King_of_Tejas@reddit
To be fair, I think that would break anyone.
Uncle_Matt_1@reddit
I beg to differ. Earl Grey is really great iced. Better than most iced tea, honestly.
King_of_Tejas@reddit
Huh, interesting. I've only had iced green and black teas.
memealopolis@reddit
I just want crusher and troi to break ME.
Spiritual-Owl-169@reddit
Why is my TNG season 3 disc 2 all scratched up??!
WrongEinstein@reddit
That's my idea. "Sure, whatever floats your boat. Four lights. That's lunch then?"
say_it_aint_slow@reddit
He wouldn't be picard.
DriverGlittering1082@reddit
And maybe Madred and family died when the Dominion wiped out most of Cardassia
darwinDMG08@reddit
Ask Dustin Hoffman how that went in Marathon Man.
Significant_Monk_251@reddit
What that was was a demonstration of how useless torture is when you start from the wrongful assumption that your victim knows what the hell you're talking about.
MrPNGuin@reddit
Is it safe?
darwinDMG08@reddit
(Drill noise)
stormypets@reddit
"Actually, I see seven lights."
damageddude@reddit
P: You say there are five lights? Who am I to argue? Can I get some breakfast? I heard your eggs are pretty good.
Gul: But there ARE four lights!
P: Ah-ha! Ah-ha!! [ZAPP!!]
darkadventwolf@reddit
If Picard said five he would simply still be tortured and asked different questions.
Legitimate_Dare6684@reddit
He wasn't interested in the answer. The torture would have just continued in a different way.
Major-Tourist-5696@reddit
The cardassian starts making out with him
BigNorseWolf@reddit
"Honestly i'm a little woozy from all the torture and I'm seeing 2 of you right now
ZealousidealClub4119@reddit
~ 1984, Orwell
Picard's torture scene is a nod to 1984. It's devastating and depressing as hell and I can't recommend it highly enough.
SternGlance@reddit
It's not about getting Picard to SAY there are five lights, it's about getting him to BELIEVE there are five lights. So Picard would get tortured until he admitted that he knows there's only four lights THEN tortured until he thinks he sees five.
The point is breaking Picard and Picard broke. Everyone breaks eventually.
Overall_Falcon_8526@reddit
Shoulda said "six."
GonzoI@reddit
Honestly, every time I watch it, I pause and start counting all the tiny lights in the background.
rjcpl@reddit
Yeah there are a lot more than 5 lights.
BonesSawMcGraw@reddit
He’s got the astigmatism…maybe he does see six 😅
sonny_flatts@reddit
They make a visor for that.
Defiant-Giraffe@reddit
"I know you're just saying that. Now tell me what you believe"
lavahot@reddit
"There are no lights. They're an illusion."
gurl_2b@reddit
"No, there are 6 lights. The 2 in your eyes." Make em uncomfortable as hell.
OwlCaptainCosmic@reddit
Riker would have led with “five lights? Sure buddy, however many you want. What colour shall I say they are?”
azzthom@reddit
Gul Madred would tell him that was a stupid thing to say and do, and then escalate the torture.
meatshieldjim@reddit
The reality in the torture is they would say name names or diagram the warp reactor. He would tell them people he doesn't care if they get tortured or are impossible to get. Or he would just make up shit to temporarily stop the torture. Solzhenitsyn said often people would know that the torturers know you are lying and not stop but sometimes they would for a moment. There is so much more to torture than Star Trek has even bothered to understand. And ever Captain Tortured someone. And it is lazy writing and is just false drama. It is a shame the series is dead now. Now that all star fleet crew members that were under 25 became borg and are traumatized. Just what a shame.
UrguthaForka@reddit
Yeah, they have Picard fight him in order to do the character development part of the story.
I've seen/read stuff where the torture victim just goes along right away with whatever the torturer wants, so the torturer has to find other means to break them (usually by threatening to harm a loved one).
But for this episode they just wanted to go with the defiance role for Picard so we get what we get: A great episode (or is it TWO great episodes??)
secondtaunting@reddit
Honestly if you’re being tortured you’re going to break. It’s just a matter of time. I guess it’s the breaking down that’s important and not what you say. Food for thought. I remember arguing with my friends and family when the us was debating legalizing torture. I was definitely anti torture, other people argued that “what if a terrorist has a nuclear weapon and the only way to fund it is by torture?” It blew my mind that people were so ready to let the government torture people. It’s like they immediately went to their fear response after 9/11 and were ready to throw away all the freedoms and protections we currently enjoy.
TheNathan@reddit
I had those arguments too, and I found this perfect quote from Napoleon about it:
“The barbarous custom of having men beaten who are suspected of having important secrets to reveal must be abolished. It has always been recognised that this way of interrogating men, by putting them to torture, produces nothing worthwhile. The poor wretches say anything that comes into their mind and what they think the interrogator wishes to know.”
Beledagnir@reddit
If Napoleon says your thing is pointlessly evil, then you know you done goofed.
secondtaunting@reddit
That’s a good quote. I could have used it ten years ago. It still baffles me that people were pro torture. It gave me such anxiety at the time, and still. I couldn’t understand how people couldn’t think it through and understand the dangerous road that this leads to. And a decade later I think we all see what this road is leading towards. Fascism.
Lologna@reddit
The average person has no need to try and understand torture, lucky for us.
Plenty of 'torture' techniques are used all the time even by police. We just call it interrogation. I agree though we should be against torture straight up but drawing the line is a lot easier said than done
Iamblikus@reddit
But there were only four lights…
TheGameMastre@reddit
What lights?
DeckerXT@reddit
All props to P. I'm cool with Sheridan's actions as well.
Michael-Aaron@reddit
Just put Worf and Riker in charge and call it a night
AnalystofSurgery@reddit
R/meirl
Sumthin-Sumthin44692@reddit
“I got your fifth light right here, buddy”
whiskeygolf13@reddit
Madred zaps him and tells him he’s lying, there are four.
Or he smiles and nods and keeps getting him today what he wants in between depriving him and making him loopy and keeps moving the goalposts.
mybadalternate@reddit
“Let me count them… one light…. ….twooo lights…… ……thrrrrreeeee lights….. ………fooooooouuuurrrrr lights…… ……ffffffffffffffffff-our lights!”
TinyDoctorTim@reddit
AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
datalaughing@reddit
The whole point is to break down the prisoner’s will to get them to do and say what you want them to say, regardless of whether it’s true. So if Picard is willing to lie about whatever they want him to lie about right off the bat, they probably move straight into using him for all sorts of anti-federation propaganda.
JaxVos@reddit
However, if you comply repeatedly without any hesitation they do get suspicious
BigConstruction4247@reddit
He'd take a different approach. Like he did when he threatened Dr Crusher.
r33k3r@reddit
The Cardi bastard immediately kills him and there's no 7th season of TNG.
OnlyFuzzy13@reddit
The 7th season is entirely a cardassian wearing a Picard mask.
Existing-Leopard-212@reddit
Q wouldn't have had that BS.
BigMrTea@reddit
It was about control and submission. He would have admitted defeat immediately. More domination and humiliation would have followed.
VinCubed@reddit
Guessing you're watching on Pluto since that episode was on today.
Madred would have found another reason to keep torturing. He'd pivot to saying "There are only four lights, why did you lie!"
notthatiambitter@reddit
The show would be over
Late-External3249@reddit
Look, I'm no expert in Cardi counting. If he said there were 5, then 5 it is.
Abject-Management558@reddit
Would be a different episode. Duh. Keep up.
Nawnp@reddit
The point was to break him of his will, if he started off by lying this the Cardassian would proceed to move onto whatever else he wanted to prove that Picard would accept his word as, eventually using it to tell Federation secrets and either use him to record propaganda or release him back to the Federation after he was brainwashed.
Evening-Cold-4547@reddit
Gul Madred would torture Picard for lying to him. He couldn't continue the interrogation until Picard answered the question honestly.
LOUDCO-HD@reddit
He gets to keep his sackcloth robe right from the start instead of getting it back later.
Volcanofanx9000@reddit
“The first rule of being interrogated is that you are the only irreplaceable person in the torture chamber. The room is yours, so work it. If they’re going to threaten you with death, show them who’s boss. Die faster!”
Lologna@reddit
The point is to break him. So they'd just keep making him do things until he can't simply play along.
EffectiveSalamander@reddit
If he would have simply told him what he wanted to hear, the torturer would have tried something else.