Betrayal in "The Debt"
Posted by Confident-Club1310@reddit | xena | View on Reddit | 28 comments
Don't you think this act is not quite in Gabrielle's character? Could jealousy really have driven the kind, loving Gabrielle to this?
hermit198388@reddit
To add more thoughts to this discussion (sorry if someone already mentioned it and I missed it)... for all Gabrielle knows, Hope could be dead at this point. Or otherwise not okay. And it's Xena's fault, essentially. Gabrielle is still travelling with Xena, their friendship is still supposedly intact, but she's struggling with her own feelings of betrayal, distrust, etc. at this point.
So now the woman who might have made her kill her own child is talking about going off to take another life. Gabrielle, whose life has been irrevocably changed, not just with losing Hope but being forced to kill Meridian and go against her own moral code, is reasserting herself, supposedly, as a force for good, as Xena's moral compass. Xena thought she knew better about Hope and Gabrielle ostensibly went along with what she believed, but secretly she believes she should have kept Hope, raised her to counter any evil in her, and Xena's to blame for her not getting to do this, Gabrielle felt she had no real choice. Now it's Xena that's not going to get a choice and Gabrielle will save the life of the person she wants dead this time. In a way, Ming Tien is almost a stand-in for Hope. She couldn't save Hope but she can save him, she's not powerless this time around.
Confident-Club1310@reddit (OP)
I still wonder if Gabrielle could have stayed with Xena if Xena had killed Hope. I don't think so. It would have destroyed their relationship forever
hermit198388@reddit
I'm at these episodes in my rewatch so this discussion came at the perfect time for me!
DrNerdyTeacher@reddit
When I first watched this episode, I was shocked and also thought it was completely out of character. After rewatching it as an adult, I can see that not only is Gabrielle jealous of how Xena seems to feel about Lao Ma, but, on the heels of the Dahak and Hope situation, Gabrielle is also traumatized and needs Xena's support and Xena essentially ditches her. That's not completely clear in this episode, so I really appreciate Forget Me Not. When I think about Gabrielle standing up to Xena in Ties That Bind in season 1 or The Price in season 2 to prevent Xena from betraying her dedication to a path of redemption, I can see how Gabrielle could have even talked herself into believing she was doing the right thing.
hermit198388@reddit
Not to mention that whole Dahak and Hope situation only happened to her because Xena heard Krahfstar(spelling?) say they wouldn't submit to Caesar and that was it, done deal, they're headed for Brittania and she could hardly think of anything else after that. She had some misgivings about Krahfstar but didn't pay much attention, she cuts Gabrielle down from the cross with barely more than a glance. It's Krahfstar that helps her get up from the ground! So even though Gabrielle is apologizing for things like getting captured, in the back of her mind there's got to be a lot going on, that none of this would be happening to her if Xena wasn't so focused on getting back at Caesar.
10Panoptica@reddit
I totally buy it.
At this point in the story, Gabrielle has a ton of fresh, unprocessed trauma from Meridian and Hope, that she mostly blames Xena for.
We also have to remember that Gabrielle is impulsive and often jumps into the fray without an exit strategy. (e.g giving water to the hoard; walking all the way into Callisto's lair alone).
I don't think Gabrielle actually planned to have Xena thrown in a dungeon and punished under threat of death. I think when she told Ming Tien, she was completely tunnel-visioned by the idea of thwarting Xena, of confronting her. But once he knew, she was in over her head.
At this point, getting Xena to confess is damage control.
Regarding trauma: I also want to clarify, I think it's a lot more complex than "Gabrielle just lashing out because she's hurt." Xena leaving to assassinate someone at the behest of a woman from her past is a particularly triggering combo for her.
Gabrielle's "blood innocence" was a huge part of her sense of self and her value. Xena has always placed an especially high value on it and often equated it with Gabrielle's goodness. It's a virginity metaphor and Gabrielle feels like used goods.
Gabrielle's moralizing influence on Xena is a huge part of their relationship, that Xena frequently praises her for. The fact that Gabrielle can't persuade her not to kill someone in cold blood now, is reinforcing this idea that she has lost her value to Xena. And consequently her role in the world.
The last time Xena helped a woman from her past was Boudicca. We know from other episodes, Gabrielle feels like Xena's preoccupation with Boudicca's war against Caesar is what led to all this.
Gabrielle still thinks Hope was good. She gave up her child, who she wanted to keep and raise, because of Xena. She's given up everything for Xena - and now that she's lost so much, Xena is choosing someone else.
hermit198388@reddit
All good points and this is where I am in my series rewatch (The Debt is next up for me). I used to think it wasn't all that characteristic but having just freshly watched The Deliverer and Gabrielle's Hope I'm seeing it now.
cestlavie_69@reddit
Oh, this is so good. I love it. Great points all around, especially the point about Gabrielle thinking she’s lost her role in the world.
I appreciate the show now in a way I didn’t when it first aired because I see in hindsight how they were exploring these themes. I think the viewer can better understand some episodes once they’ve watched the entire series.
DaniDoesnt@reddit
The writers and actors took this show very seriously and we love them for it!
10Panoptica@reddit
Yeah, I love how smart the show is and how fearless it is about really tackling themes like this. The characters' understanding of themselves as moral people, the way they cope with trauma. It's really thoughtful & brave.
Scrubla@reddit
I agree with you 100% here. I felt her actions were in character for these reasons too!
heraldsorrows@reddit
I'd say it's perfectly parallel to her character development. It emphasizes how deep her relationship is with Xena and how no matter she chooses to do the right thing in everything it will be always be stained by a lil bit of darkness if it crosses the line of love. Subconsciously she's jealous but she let herself believe it's for the greater good when deep down it's because of her jealousy.
Imo, this shows the imperfect side of human nature that no matter how pure and perfect a person strives to be, their judgement will always be stained by something selfish such as love. Love is both selfish and giving.
Sloppy_Tuna@reddit
Simply Put-Love makes people do crazy shit
multiplecats@reddit
A decade later after the finale, when I binged the whole show for the first time, it jumped out to me that Gab is an insecure person. But insecure enough to elaborately thwart Xena in this situation, in the way she did, is really wild to me. lol But, I guess Rob really saw this as within Gabrielle's capability to want to just punish the hell out of Xena for (she incorrectly assumed) not loving her. "Troubled is a polite word for what I am" is one of my favorite Gab quotes for a reason. ;)
cestlavie_69@reddit
I don’t remember that quote. What episode is it from?
I don’t know when I first picked up on Gabrielle’s insecurity, but it makes so much sense. Xena isn’t always nice to Gabs and she places so much importance on her opinion.
multiplecats@reddit
I've long since forgotten what ep - seems like maybe in the Tara episode? 🤔 Here's the .wav - https://xenafan.com/sounds/wpt2.html
DaniDoesnt@reddit
It was a bold choice for sure probably made for the plot more than anything. It was shocking but it was possible for me to see that Gabrielle was using her high moral motive of ‘stop xena from murdering’ to cover up more selfish motives (wanting xena ‘back’ and as her perfect woman). Easy to assume Gabrielle didn’t know how far it would go. She was traumatized, angry, and heartbroken. What crazy stuff were we capable of in those situations? When later I heard that Gabrielle was jealous, I was initially shocked, but also happy to see the character wasn’t perfect after all and had very human emotions.
DaniDoesnt@reddit
Excuse my punctuation I’m supposed be getting ready for work right now 😂
cestlavie_69@reddit
Yes, I always thought it was way out of character. The issue is that the viewer didn’t know, or have a clue, as to how Gabrielle beat Xena to Chin. If we had gotten a little more insight into how Gabs was feeling, I think the betrayal wouldn’t have seemed so out of character. But this was right after Dahak and she was pretty traumatized. Taking that into consideration, her actions are more believable. She’s hurt, acting out of jealousy and anger. Xena abandoned her in Brittannia and terrible things happened to her. Xena forced her to “kill” her child and treated her callously about it. Now she turns around and is going to throw away the good they’ve done to commit a murder for some other woman in a far away land and she has no problem leaving Gabrielle behind. That’s a lot of motivation. If only they’d had a couple lines or a scene where Gabs expressed some of that…
Scrubla@reddit
I mean she does say this a bit later in the season, that she was really jealous and mad at Xena for loving someone else enough to commit a murder like this.
hermit198388@reddit
I like this take. I explain a few things from the show to myself that way, too, actually. Like Xena's uncharacteristically romantic "girly" behaviour towards Hercules in Unchained Heart. Actually, I say in the entire opening trilogy she's not quite herself because everything she's done is really catching up to her and she's figuring out who she is / wants to be. So she's trying on this role, trying to figure out what it means to be "good" and feeling lost, lol.
gk4lyfe0725@reddit
This exactly, she’s given everything up for Xena. She’s grief-stricken and jealous
hermit198388@reddit
The older I get the more I find myself understanding and and believing in these characters' flaws, and loving them more for how human they are instead of judging them or resisting this aspect of the show. I used to think, no, she'd never do this, never say that. But no, watching again and again, I can make sense of the choices now. They don't always do the right thing.
Like the way Xena answers Callisto after she's been made to give that little speech before a village about her past actions against Cirra in A Necessary Evil. I always felt like Xena's words were so true, and Callisto's pain in the face of them so real, and that Xena's reaction to her after was so heartless. Why didn't she have more empathy for her and everything she did to her? But now, it makes so much more sense to me. Callisto murdered her best friend's husband (and wants to murder her best friend) and she put Xena up to reliving her horrific past for reasons of perverse pleasure (though it backfired on her because despite her protestations, Callisto still very much feels things deeply sometimes). It's completely understandable that Xena doesn't have it in her to comfort Callisto in that moment, even if to the viewer it feels like that's what she should be doing.
Owl_Queen101@reddit
Gabby is a bad person and exploits Xena and her evil past. Don’t be shocked by anything foul gabby does
IseQween@reddit
I often perceived Gabs used as a prop device to introduce some element Xenastaff didn't want to associate with the WP (e.g., demon baby) or impetus to keep Xena on a reformed path. While I never put Gabs on a pedestal of "goodness," it took awhile for me to see her as a "person" and be interested in what made her tick.
In retrospect, I see a consistency in qualities that initially annoyed me -- her naivete, openness, curiosity, certainty she knew better and should defy Xena in situations the warrior had prior experience with. I couldn't buy her popping up in Ming T'ien's bed for any reason that made sense. Now, I can simply accept it as "in character," reflective of most of the rationales given by others on this thread -- a mixture of everything from hurt, anger, jealousy and arrogance, to honest desire to stop a murder and protect Xena's soul. I still feel a bit like throttling her, but I have more empathy for why she did it.
godsibi@reddit
I don't think it's THAT out of character.
In my understanding it's that she underestimates the mission and fails to realise how she crosses the line. She believes Xena is stubborn for going on this mission, but Gabrielle is actually even more stubborn.
This is Gabrielle! She's still a pacifist here. Probably she still carries guilt from her first accidental kill. So she tries to prevent a cold blood kill. She does not understand Ming T'ien and his relation to Xena. She thinks that assassinating him is going to cause Xena to feel guilty (like in Callisto returns) or worse, awake her evil side (like when they fought the Horde).
So, she does what she considers moral and takes initiative. She believes she can reason with Ming T'ien after stopping Xena's assassination attempt. Sadly she's wrong and she only makes things worse.
queeeeeni@reddit
No, Gabrielle has dark aspects to her personality too. From the beginning, she's always had anger, arrogance, jealousy and a prickly relationship to people thinking they know what's best for her.
And Lao Ma kind of pings every one of those for Gabrielle, her influence on Xena is so steadfast that Gabrielle can't shake it, and that pisses her off. And then Gabrielle asks the question she was not prepared to hear the answer to 'you owe someone so much that you would just throw away these last few years' and got a yes.
The nice thing is that Gabrielle grows and from season 5, she 100% would side with Xena but before that Gabrielle is so immature and made it a competition that she loses because she's still so sheltered.
grismow@reddit
Yeah, I totally know what you mean. It does seem out of character. But! We cannot undererstimate the influence Ares has on Gabrielles emotions in that moment. The same way that Ares was able to cloud Xena during her warlord years and elevated the bloodthirst in her, the same way Ares took the jealousy and the already splintered relationship to turn Gabrielles reaction to 110%.