YF-23 flying next to YF-22 (future F-22) [1200x936]

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therealestscientist@reddit

Is there a name for the shape of the F23 wings?

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AmericanFlyer530@reddit

If the YF-23 truly was a better platform, then the USAF would have chosen it.

In the end, the YF-22 met the specifications of what the USAF wanted better than the YF-23.

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This isn't always the case. In fact, it may not have been the case for the JSF program either. The X-32 suffered from design issues more closely related to frequent and unexpected changes requested by the Air Force that caused Boeing to show up with an incomplete prototype that wasn't really even close to what it's final design would have looked like, or performed like.

With this said, there were a lot of issues with the YF-23 that most posters aren't taking into consideration when making their claims that the "YF-23 was better". In hindsight, the F-23 potentially could have been the better platform knowing what we know today, but that's not what was requested at the time and that's not what Northrop brought to the table. The weapons bay of the YF-23 alone had so serious drawbacks despite having some advantages over the F-22 at the same time. Advantages that probably would have better served the USAF over the years, despite limiting it's role of dominant air superiority platform, which honestly hasn't really even been tested in combat since it's inception.

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dynamoterrordynastes@reddit

What weapons bay drawbacks are you talking about?

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Z_THETA_Z@reddit

its bay was very deep, meaning it'd need a new method of getting missiles into launch positions, which would be difficult to develop into functionality especially given the very significant g-loads a plane of this role would be anticipated to be under

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dynamoterrordynastes@reddit

Those problems have been solved. A combination of door mounting and trapeze mounting was to be used.

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Z_THETA_Z@reddit

iirc it was the development of the trapeze system that was one of the big issues with the bay at the time, making that work in high g-loads was difficult

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dynamoterrordynastes@reddit

The F-22 uses a trapeze system for its side bays. Buzzing was the bigger issue.

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Z_THETA_Z@reddit

eh, i'll take your word for it, i'm no expert. i just know that the deeper bay caused some issues with the development

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Herr_Quattro@reddit

One thing that is constantly overlooked is, as I understand it, a non-insignificant reason the YF-22 was selected was due to uncertainty around Northrops ability to deliver the F-23 on time and on budget.

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RiskyDefeat@reddit

Could you please elaborate on the YF-23s weapons bay? Never heard of this issue before.

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Conch-Republic@reddit

It was better in some aspects, but the primary reason they went with the YF22 is because Northrop Grumman likely wouldn't have been able to handle the contract. It also didn't have thrust vectoring, and the weapons bay wasn't functional during testing. They dropped the ball.

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Z_THETA_Z@reddit

why's lack of thrust vectoring an issue with whether or not they could handle the contract? it doesn't need thrust vectoring, the f-22's TVC is basically just an airshow tool

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davesoc@reddit

But firing from the weapons bay at the time wasn’t a requirement nor was thrust vectoring. Lockheed for sure put on the “better show” and knew how to market their offering. That doesn’t make it better.

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barukatang@reddit

Wow, to have such a view must be bliss. Surely corruption couldn't have affected anything

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That-Following-6319@reddit

They’ve chosen the wrong plane two times in a row. I’m worried about the future…

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Z_THETA_Z@reddit

ok while i agree that the f-23 would have been better, the f-35 was definitely the right choice over the x-32

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Camo_Penguin@reddit

I wonder what a modern F23 would’ve looked like. Probably dope as fuck

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Z_THETA_Z@reddit

https://www.twz.com/24911/this-is-what-a-northrop-f-23a-wouldve-looked-like-if-lockheed-lost-the-atf-competition

you're in luck

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Immediate-Bug-7737@reddit

I wish to this day they just picked both. This competition really was a big leap in aircraft performance and design.

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davesoc@reddit

I mean the YF-16 and YF-18 both got picked up….

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Z_THETA_Z@reddit

it was actually YF-17 at that point

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boner79@reddit

With all due to the YF-23, the YF-22 simply looks more intimidating.

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Z_THETA_Z@reddit

if by intimidating you mean a smoothened f-15 with way oversize vertical stabilizers then sure

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shedang@reddit (OP)

What the yf-23 would have looked like had it won.

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XGC75@reddit

See, the F22 is more beautiful than the YF22. I don't think we'd have been so happy with the F23 (cosmetically). Kind of a hilarious assessment but while I remember being upset the F22 won I'm glad in hindsight.

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rodface@reddit

I have to disagree, the F-22 is obviously a YF-22 "made manufacturable" but it is not the better-looking aircraft. It is the better proportioned, safer-looking of the two, but the YF-22 is sharp, stark and dramatic.

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Beast66@reddit

Disagree. F-22 is one of the most gorgeous planes ever created. It’s a matter of taste of course, but also you’re wrong

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Z_THETA_Z@reddit

looks like someone ran a steamroller over an f-15, it's just a smoothened generic jet fighter

yf-23 is cool

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marrioman13@reddit

With the droptanks it ends up looking a bit like a Meteor

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El_Mnopo@reddit

I'm still sad the 23 lost.

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Blondie-Gringo@reddit

I had a poster of it on my wall when I was a kid.

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UnevenHeathen@reddit

used to fly it for hours and hours in JF2 in the 90s

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AllReflection@reddit

I would take off from a carrier and fly straight up until the engines died from oxygen starvation. I’d then point her back straight down and try to land on the carrier unpowered. So much fun!

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daveknny@reddit

I would try to fly west at a high altitude and when the map doubled back keep flying west until I could land again. When I had no fuel left I would glide and hope

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UnevenHeathen@reddit

I would just destroy san francisco via Moffett!

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Zirenton@reddit

I’ve found my people (:

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Irichcrusader@reddit

I saw an hour long documentary once on it's development. I felt so bad for the team when they got the call that the 23 wasn't selected. One guy was so devastated he drove to the beach and just spent a few hours alone there, processing the news.

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SuspiciousCucumber20@reddit

Creators are different people in our society. They don't work a 9-5, they bring things from only an idea into the physical.

But unlike an artist, these guys don't own their art and when it's rejected, someone shoves a pole through it and sticks it up as a display to collect bird shit for the rest of your life. The worst part would be knowing that your thrown away design is STILL a generation ahead of what anyone else has.

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wolfmann99@reddit

USAF museum in Dayton, OH has one of the two yf23 on display.

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El_Mnopo@reddit

I watched that one too. I remember one of the engineers saying how shocked he was when he heard the news they lost. He really thought they had the superior plane.

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speedyundeadhittite@reddit

They DID have the superior plane, it was just too weird looking for the Air Force.

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El_Mnopo@reddit

We were on the verge of greatness—we were this close!

The 22 looks so conventional next the the alien space fighter that is the 23.

And now we have Fat Amy (the 35). I’m sure it’s capable but dang does she look porky.

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speedyundeadhittite@reddit

F-35 is definitely not much good for dog-fighting, although thanks to the tech, probably the enemy will never see it.

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Irichcrusader@reddit

The whole team was in shock at the news. One of the lead engineers, on being told he would have to dismantle the internal components said, "you'll need to find someone else for that job because there's no way I'm cutting this baby up."

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2ichie@reddit

If the f-22 is already way too costly for the military to maintain imagine the yf-22 lol

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Dr_nut_waffle@reddit

I thought ı was watching a documentary about f-22. I was really rooting for the guys. When they were told they lost I was dumbfounded. I did some googling and figured out there was second plane

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Salted_Butta@reddit

Was it called "Battle of the x-planes?" I had that on DVD

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Irichcrusader@reddit

It was this one, pretty good watch if you have 50min to spare.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYLiMYGBE2Q

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pupperdogger@reddit

50 mins to spare in the middle of a workday and watch an obscure documentary? I absolutely have time to spare and enough time that I can watch it before my wife gets home. I know she’ll love to hear all about it too!

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Irichcrusader@reddit

I also like to bore my wife with historical and aeronautical anecdotes. She loves me enough that she pretends to listen.

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pupperdogger@reddit

My wife practically begs me for anecdotes. She loves hearing stories of my travels, railroad MOW equipment ID, and various other topics. My children to love them too. /s

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rodface@reddit

I was jealous for an instant, then I caught on.

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rodface@reddit

these old docus are compared to the arbage that passes for video today.

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humanhavingknees@reddit

If you can find that documentary, I'd love to watch it.

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postmodest@reddit

https://youtu.be/PYLiMYGBE2Q?t=2628

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just_anotherReddit@reddit

Why did it have to be one or the other? Why couldn’t we have them both. It’s a travesty up us all that either one had to get the ax

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narwhal_breeder@reddit

Twice the number of production lines to maintain, twice the designs to run updates against when you want to add capability, twice the logistics load, half the economies of scale of production for either, twice the training material.

For airframes that are designed for the same purpose.

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Stoly25@reddit

Logistical purposes. Why produce two different things that perform the same exact role when you can produce more of one of them for less effort?

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Figgler@reddit

Same reason they only made a handful of F-22s compared to what they had planned: it’s too much money when we didn’t have anywhere near the adversaries they were designed for anymore.

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BlindManuel@reddit

I remember Game studios thinking the 23 was it, making flight simulators with it.

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shedang@reddit (OP)

What the yf-23 would have looked like had it won.

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Silent-Wonder6546@reddit

Man the 23 was a masterpiece, shame it did get adopted later like the YF-17 becoming the F/A-18

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G8M8N8@reddit

Why did they put the engines so far from centerline in the 23? Stronger thrust vectoring?

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Rickenbacker69@reddit

Might have been to keep them from both being taken out by a single missile.

And I kinda wish the 23 had won - it's just sooo much prettier!

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bemenaker@reddit

But the F-22 outperformed it in every way possible.

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BuckarooBanzye@reddit

Incorrect…the YF-23 won 9 of 10 requirements for the contract; yet the YF-22 was chosen. Go figure…

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egguw@reddit

source? the only increased performance from the yf23 was the stealthiness, and the f-22 was already excellent enough at

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davesoc@reddit

But in this day and age stealth is key. If I’m flying into hostile territory I want the best stealth possible!

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BuckarooBanzye@reddit

Source: Aviation Week & Space Technology coverage of the fly off…they were surprised as well. Yes, the YF-22 had thrust vectoring exhaust nozzles, but that was not a competition requirement.

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Ws6fiend@reddit

YF-22 was chosen because they felt it was closer to existing design aircraft meaning they felt it could be quicker to production and lower costs vs the more radical designs the YF-23 went with. The YF-23 was only marginally better in most tests except low speed maneuverability where it lost. Lockheed also put on a better show for the brass and had a design that seemed more finished compared to Northrop prototype.

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Intelligent_League_1@reddit

Northrop also couldn’t be trusted after the B-2, the F-22 was the correct decision.

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WingCoBob@reddit

They couldn't be trusted after the B-2 went overbudget because of the Air Force repeatedly fucking with it?

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alvarezg@reddit

As I understand it, the YF-23 landing gear was capable of carrier landings, a feature above the the project specs that the YF-22 lacked.

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kick26@reddit

To hide the heat out of the engines. My understanding was that the YF-23 didn’t have or had minimal thrust vectoring where as the YF-22 relied heavily on thrust vectoring

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spootypuff@reddit

I wonder if the 23 would have been safer than the 22 from surface to air missiles given its exhaust shielding.

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ThreeHandedSword@reddit

well hiding the heat signature definitely helps against things looking for it, especially considering you can't find it on radar

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dynamoterrordynastes@reddit

Lower drag, lower weight, lower inlet losses

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Pattern_Is_Movement@reddit

Same reason the Su-57 does, a much larger, deeper weapons bay.

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SuspiciousCucumber20@reddit

I don't know if this is the specific reason, but the internal weapons bay, at least part of it, sits between the intakes at the bottom of the aircraft. They're also deeper bays an if I recall correctly, they could fit full sized Mk-82s in them.

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Guysmiley777@reddit

The YF-23 didn't have thrust vectoring.

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G8M8N8@reddit

TIL

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Vast-Return-7197@reddit

Thought they upgraded that right before the 22 was chosen. Always heard the 23 was a better platform. Probably like everything else, grease and politics.

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WoodGuy1971@reddit

The Black Widow II was the superior choice.

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MWAH_dib@reddit

That's actually the Grey Ghost pictured here

There were two YF-23 demonstrators; Grey Ghost PAV-1 and Black Widow (PAV-2). Black Widow II was never an official nickname.

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PaintedClownPenis@reddit

I heard the greatest barstool story about this and I've never been able to verify it but it rings so very, very true.

During the competition between YFs 22 and 23 each group was supposed to field two examples of the plane for testing. McDonnell Douglas, which was already enshittified by their accountants, hadn't started on the second plane when Members of Congress said they were going to drop by for a little fact-finding look-see.

So the C-suite had the engineers cut the fucking prototype plane in half and displayed the two sides in a hangar that the Members of Congress weren't allowed to enter, pretending they were two completed planes.

Last time I snooped into it a decade ago I looked to see if a second YF-23 was ever actually delivered during the testing phase, and thought I saw the opportunity for McD to fake that, too.

I don't mention it much anymore because it just angers the shareholders. But you never know, there might be someone out there in a position to confirm such a thing. Or the story has been independently told elsewhere.

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wustenratte6d@reddit

There were 2 built and flying before the end of the testing phase. They both still exist.

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PaintedClownPenis@reddit

Yeah, I looked it up. The second example showed up sixty days late and McD lost the competition in part because the YF-22 generated so many more testing hours during the trial.

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Kpt_Kipper@reddit

Should’ve given the 23 to the Japanese for no other reason than it would’ve been unequivocally cool

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Cashydog@reddit

how to train your dragon reference?

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EccentricGamerCL@reddit

Imagine an alternate timeline where the YF-23 and the X-32 win their respective competitions.

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Ok-Pride-3534@reddit

I wish we had both.

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ThreeHandedSword@reddit

If nothing else it would have been invaluable experience in maintaining stealth fighters at sea

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wustenratte6d@reddit

I love the YF-23 and think it could have been a great partner to the F-22 as an attack aircraft. The F-15EX wasn't even a dream at the time, but the -23 was being referred to have a larger weapons bay and could have been a great stealth multi-role jet. Honestly, I think the best direction would have been for the -22 to be bolstered properly and gone to the Navy while the AF for the -23.

Really wish there was a decent model of the YF-23, all I've found is a cheap snap together desktop toy.

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postmodest@reddit

I wish there were a 1:48 model kit of the YF-22 you could buy.

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rodface@reddit

model kit of the YF-22

darn so we currently cannot reproduce that photo in 1:48. That is unacceptable.

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rodface@reddit

Not getting enough cameltoe at this angle

Bitter taste over the YF-23 is only made worse by how much better looking the YF-22 is than the production version.

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