Can any water filters really remove chloramines?

Posted by BubbaTheNut@reddit | preppers | View on Reddit | 36 comments

So my local county has started poisoning it's water supply with chloramine (chlorine and ammonia bonded together) instead of the tried and tested chlorine, which seems to be happening more across the country.

So i thought, ok better check my filter systems (a big Berkey stainless as my emergency/SHTF solution and a twin under-sink 10" standard housing for my everyday drinking water) still deal with that ok, and it has lead me down a 4 week long path of frustration and confusion.

All i want to accomplish is drinking water that is free of toxins, chemicals, microplastics, vocs, disinfectants, and herbicides etc, from my municipal water supply that is treated with chloramines and fluoride (and the 2 main toxins i want removed).

I have come across so many false claims about filter lifespans, dodgy independent lab certifications, and just in general a complete lack of any good information and loads of misinformation.

My understanding of how i could accomplish this is still unclear, but what i understand so far is as follows:

chloramine is extremely hard to remove
if chloramine has prolonged contact with activated carbon media (especially catalytic carbon) it's bond will break and it will turn back into it's original forms of ammonia and chlorine
the carbon block can then deal with the chlorine ok, but the ammonia is impossible to remove with any sort of carbon filters so you end up with ammonia in your drinking water.
the only way to deal with this ammonia is to add some sort of mixed bed deionization resin filtration to the filters, but apparently the ammonia depletes these resins very quickly and the resins also deplete your water of beneficial minerals
reverse osmosis systems can not deal with chloramine, add their plastic membranes and their plastic storage tanks potentially add microplastics/vocs to the drinking water and you end up with water devoid of all minerals
remineralization filters are all essentially useless
The youtube videos i watched or the water filtration sites i read regarding removing chloramines from water, none of them mention the added ammonia resulting from that, or how to remove the ammonia.

Does anyone have any insights?

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kkinnison@reddit

unless you are on Dialysis and inject the water you shouldn't worry. The digestive process neutralizes the chloramines before they reach the bloodstream. Chloramines are only harmful when they go directly into the bloodstream - as in kidney dialysis or in a fish's gill structure. In these instances, chloramines must be removed. Even kidney dialysis patients can drink, cook, and bathe in chloraminated water.

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Ill-Ad-1828@reddit

Please provide a source where our body breaks down chloramines… if broken down it creates ammonia and chloride… pretty sure ammonia is not something we want to drink

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kkinnison@reddit

IDK. What is an acceptable source that you will accept?

it is easy to find out on your own. Chloaramines have been used in drinking water since 1915
https://www.epa.gov/dwreginfo/chloramines-drinking-water
https://www.mawc.org/sites/default/files/faq_chloramines-2-2016.pdf

pretty sure ammonia is not something we want to drink

well in large quantities, sure. you also wouldn't want to eat dirt, or spiders, or lead, but you be surprised the stuff you do eat in small quantities that have no affect on your body because they are insignificant quantiles

I would guess you would get more ammonia in your system from eating fast food burgers then a year of drinking purified water. if you really want to you can do the research yourself instead of asking others to do it for you, or ask some professional scientist working on water purification methods who have the time to educate you on what they have been doing safely with minimal harm for decades

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Ill-Ad-1828@reddit

Lol first off I asked for a source for your very broad statement. You sent me a document that is a draft version put out by a water utility who is convincing it’s customers “it’s okay”.

Chloramines do have some risks and you’re answer to OP is “you shouldn’t worry” when they asked for advice about something they are worried about. I’m sure they’ll stop worrying because you said so.

In case you wanted to educate yourself - here’s an article. https://www.waterrf.org/serve-file/4949-Disinfection-Byproducts.pdf

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kkinnison@reddit

That article was uselessly vague. Not sure what the point you were trying to make with it, and you know what? i don't care, and dont care enough to convince you either, you are wasting my time

Not going to debate this, the science is clear with over 100 years of actual use of chloramines it is harmless in the quantities used to purify water (again, as long as it is not injected) thousands of scientist support it's use. It is settled, there is no discussion.

it is clear you are not accepting any sources of info that doesn't support your opinion and not willing to ask any experts on the issue with actual proven facts. I will not bother discussing this 5 month old topic.

OP did you find any solutions? Your summary of treatment options is really thorough. I was reading about addition of sodium thiosulfate, but then you need to remove the ammonia before it rebounds to the chloride… and I’m not sure what chloride levels would convert to?

Typical reddit responses in this forum saying you are over reacting 👎

Chloramine use concerns that people should read before responding: https://www.waterrf.org/serve-file/4949-Disinfection-Byproducts.pdf

water_reducer@reddit

a few mgs of vitamin c should do it, although it will leave the ammonia behind, the amount would be negligible.

OnTheEdgeOfFreedom@reddit

chloramine has been in use since 1929. That's about as tested as things get. It's also considered safe at concentrations 10 times higher than what's used in public water.

I get that you want to drink pure water, but there is no such thing, even after filtering, distilling... it's always a question of how close to pure do you want to get, because bottles containing exactly 2 parts hydrogen to one part oxygen don't exist.

All this said, UV light will break down chloramines. So will letting the water sit in a glass bottle for a couple months.

Unhappy-Worth-2706@reddit

considering most americans have serious gut health issues, I think looking at the safety of a chemical not just to human cells but to the microbiome is warranted. As chloramines are a disinfectant I think it's fair to say they would damage or disrupt an otherwise healthy biome.

It's been looked at. Not hard enough in my opinion and in the US such a study probably won't be done now. But the general consensus is that the damage to the microbiome is minor and the risks of water that's not disinfected are high, so I'd expect things to stay as they are.

Clearly, if you can drink your own well water (and there's no pesticide use in the area) you're probably coming out ahead. But I didn't worry about this hard enough to start UV-treating my water to break down any chloramines.

Studies go both ways. Most people live in major cities like me, and when I lived somewhere with well water a careless developer blasted a basement into a nearby hill and ruined our aquafer making the water toxic.

As for the biome, people's biomes are different even if a few major species are the same. Studies that show an impact with chlorine show a loss of diversity and a change in mirobes. Just like eating gluten is a nutritious protein for some and causes an extreme allergic reaction or a more minor sensitivity in other people... I don't think we can suggest everyone's biome will react the same way.

Some people's bodies easily excrete heavy metals and other's retain more of them, using statistics might be good for public health choices (like cities chlorinating water) but not for individuals.

It's hard to develop the sensitivity to know if something like chlorine is impacting you, but I have friends who said filtering their water ended stomach pain, for example. Given my own long struggle to rebalance my biome after a chronic infection, I feel like a bit of a dummy for not filtering my city water the last 5 years.

jprefect@reddit

OP also called fluoride a toxin, so I'm not sure how seriously to take their wall off text.

Murky_Original1031@reddit

It legitimately is a toxin

Water can kill you if you take enough of it, but you know exactly what I mean and don't pretend otherwise.

Fluoride in water is not a conspiracy to close your third eye, it is simply dental hygiene.

It being good for teeth doesn't mean it's not also a toxin to other parts of the body.

Fluoride is a neurotoxin. This is a fact. The EPA (drinking water regulator) sets the limit for the maximum amount of the CONTAMINANT. See reference below where they outline how they decided on the maximum amount allowed and how they identify there are data gaps and legit concern for fluoride ingestion.

The public health services adds it in at their recommended dose. Sure it helps teeth & I’m sure the dentist community loves to say it’s safe. Ask one dentist about how the dosing was decided upon, is that dose universal to children and adults, what is their knowledge of internal medicine and the effects of fluoride, ask them where does fluoride even come from (mostly a byproduct of pesticides), ask them where fluoride is on the periodic table and what it’s properties are. Dentists were taught in school that fluoride is safe and public service. I believe that they do believe this and are doing right by the people. But just because they were told something… does not make it correct.

to say there aren’t legit concerns about the ingestion of fluoride and make fun of OP for having a concern - you digging your head in the sand, accepting what you’ve been told, and not reading any scientific literature that doesn’t fit your narrative.

https://nap.nationalacademies.org/catalog/11571/fluoride-in-drinking-water-a-scientific-review-of-epas-standards

Chloramines are not nearly as tried and true as standard chlorine disinfection. The OP is correct and many utilities are converting to chloramines for two reasons 1) they are struggling to maintain their chlorine residual out in the distribution system or 2) they cannot comply with the disinfection by products (newish) regulations

Rather than dosing chlorine out in the distribution system, removing precursors to disinfection by products (i.e. removing organics) - utilities are switching to chloramines. Chloramines without a doubt take care of problem #1. However problem #2 is a simple way to meet regulations but they are still forming disinfection by products (DBP) that are UNREGULATED (again because chlorine was the basis for much of the DBP regulations). Chloramines is an oxidant - it’s not a magical chemical that is disinfecting water but not forming carcinogenic compounds when reacting with the water’s organic compounds.

https://www.waterrf.org/serve-file/4949-Disinfection-Byproducts.pdf

what_then_@reddit

Chloramines are perfectly safe for the human body. They are there to kill microbes. So they will do some damage to your microbiome. Whether or not you consider that "your body," I guess is up to you.

joka2696@reddit

First thing you need to do is to read up on chemistry from legit sources. Most of what you are talking about is tin hat b.s.

You should read up

I did when I earned my water operator II license a dozen years ago. This post is filled with b.s. and half truths. If chloramine was bad for you, there would be bodies stacked up on every street corner in every city.

First - I appreciate my water operators! Ya’ll provide drinking water to the masses and do amazing work.

But there is a difference between acute and chronic. Cancer is on the rise and we don’t necessarily know the cause. To write off OP when in fact there ARE carcinogens being formed is ridiculous. It is well documented and EPA is studying it. Just because it’s not regulated does not mean it’s safe.

And not to be rude - but a water operator knows how to treat water based on the EPA regulations and NSF approvals. Water operators do not dive into the weeds of the effects of chlorine or chloramines on the human body. Just because the EPA sets an MCL… does not mean it is safe or that as a consumer, we can’t choose to further treat our water without being a conspiracy theorist.

letthew00kiewin@reddit

Chloramine is very likely to be safer than chlorine for water treatment. I was genuinely surprised at the official literature on chlorine for water treatment though, the government estimates some percentage of people contract cancers from its use annually. Of course, at scale more people are saved by drinking water treated with chlorine so it's not evil, just not "perfectly safe", only 99.9% safe like anything else. Chloramine has less issues with breaking down and causing harmful byproducts so it's a safer treatment option, but it's used much less frequently in the US.

Not true about chloramines. I predict in the next 10 years more regulations will be coming

Ta_Green@reddit

Chlorine bonds with various types of bacteria and algae to make chloramines (bonds with amino acids in them which can include DNA and other enzymes important for functioning) which can further bond with other biomass to basically kill them via contact reaction. I believe chloramines can be handled in higher concentrations than straight chlorine, but I don't actually know for sure.

Fluorine has been in toothpaste for a really long time now and IIRC, was a proposed alternative to chlorine to encourage dental health as it bonds with many of the same things chlorine does but is supposed to be less likely to get someone sick at the same concentrations.

When I worked in water treatment for the army, we used to pop the tank lid open with a net over it to drop the chlorine level if it got a little too high so UV lights might help in the same way. We also used sodium bisulfate to neutralize any chlorine in the water before it went through the reverse osmosis filters as they would break down from it.

That said I've heard and seen plenty of evidence that soldiers' wellbeing is a secondary concern to getting things done when it comes to equipment so it wouldn't surprise me to find out there was some dark cancer risk.

AlphaDisconnect@reddit

Look up what labs use to make distilled water. Like in bulk. Extremely energy intensive. If you can find a solar version of this. That might work too.

You have to add back in electrolytes. I don't know what this looks like, and don't have the formula, but my guess would buy mineral salts. Sodium chloride. Potassium chloride. Something with calcium. I don't know what else. Pretty shelf stable though. A dab will do you. There has to be data on this somewhere.

MolecularLego@reddit

Labs usually don't distill but use ion exchange systems to deionize the water.

SunLillyFairy@reddit

You might want to look into a household reverse osmosis system.

Some ammonia test strips might provide a little peace of mind as well, to ensure whatever filter you are using is working.

PristineSKS@reddit

It's not toxic at the concentrations in your municipal tap water, jesus christ.

240 million people in this country are protected from water-borne illness and dental demineralization by chlorinated and fluorinated tap water and you're just gonna go "its got poison!"

Usernamenotdetermin@reddit

Hey OP

Sometimes the best prep is knowledge

Take a chemistry course at a local community college. It’ll help you worry less about marketing and understand more about what’s concerning you

Doesn't last very long though. But, something is something.

Particular-Try5584@reddit

We’ve splashed out on a reverse osmosis unit by Phillips.

It’s not going to work in a SHTF, but then … nor is the official drinking water.

So it’s a reverse osmosis water day by day… and then when SHTF we revert to other supplies of water that have other treatment needs.