Genuine discussion: if Linux is ever coming out of server closets, you have to be more user friendly

Posted by NuAngel@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 134 comments

It doesn't just go for desktop applications, either. You could be a career long sysadmin / network admin and still get in over your head if you haven't spent decades in Linux and Unix environments. Have you ever actually looked at the website for some server applications and realized just how downright user-hostile they are? [https://amavis.org/](https://amavis.org/) is a fantastic example. The first paragraph is two sentences of jargon with no hyperlinks or definitions for an of the acronyms or explanations of other products - weird phrasing like what it works 'best / fine / ok' with... the rest of the page is a daunting wall of text. This is just one example. I understand Amavis isn't an end-user product, but Linux users seem to constantly complain about never getting enough recognition, while simultaneously shying away from the spotlight. I get it, there's a tech-guy personality trait that comes with what we do, but we can do better. I [watched a video last week](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lUiUQOvRHQ) that discussed the early days of Arch having a manual written by technical writers, versus a manual written by engineers. I think that's a great place for discussion to begin. Linux runs the entire world, but rather than being proud of that, too often members of this subreddit want to act like it's an exclusive club.

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Heavy_Aspect_8617@reddit

I would love to see concrete examples of how windows is user friendly and how the mainstream distros aren't.

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stormdelta@reddit

Even as an expert user, Windows generally "just works" on modern desktop hardware in my experience, especially if you use local user account and run a simple debloat script. The same has absolutely not been true of Linux - the vast majority of distros have major problems out of the box still, and even the one I'm using now (EndeavourOS) still required quite a bit of tweaking to get things working without significant glitches/quirks. I have a document several hundred lines long detailing all the tweaks/setup I had to do.

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Heavy_Aspect_8617@reddit

Awesome. Every computer I've installed linux on just works and I've spent hours trying to figure out why windows wouldn't let me install it to one of my drives despite partitioning it correctly. So it's just anecdotal evidence versus anecdotal evidence. My wife has been using it just fine.

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stormdelta@reddit

> Awesome. Every computer I've installed linux on just works and I've spent hours trying to figure out why windows wouldn't let me install it to one of my drives despite partitioning it correctly. Most people aren't setting up multiple partitions, they're just installing Windows to a drive, if they're even the ones installing Windows at all. I _strongly_ suspect you aren't remembering the number of things you had to fix/tweak, and don't realize how much your existing knowledge helps with troubleshooting. I also suspect you haven't tried installing on consumer desktop hardware from the last 4ish years, or anything with an nvidia card, especially not with Wayland. > So it's just anecdotal evidence versus anecdotal evidence. Some of what I said technically was I guess, even though it also mirrors the experiences of pretty much everyone I've spoken with IRL, including other software engineers, whom I trust a lot more than random redditors. But things like the lack of HDR support or the issues with discord screen share aren't, they're pretty well known.

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powermad80@reddit

> I strongly suspect you aren't remembering the number of things you had to fix/tweak, and don't realize how much your existing knowledge helps with troubleshooting. I also suspect you haven't tried installing on consumer desktop hardware from the last 4ish years, or anything with an nvidia card, especially not with Wayland. Lol every single thing here is wrong, I *recently* installed Fedora (and therefore Wayland) standalone to my consumer desktop hardware made out of new parts including an NVidia card. Nothing had to be tweaked! Default settings worked!

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stormdelta@reddit

> Nothing had to be tweaked! Default settings worked! I know for a fact that Fedora does not ship with the proprietary nvidia drivers, so at bare minimum you would have had to manually enable the third-party repo and explicitly install it as the open-source drivers are missing quite a lot of functionality (and in my experience frequently glitch). For reference, Windows Update auto-installs nvidia drivers.

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powermad80@reddit

> I know for a fact that Fedora does not ship with the proprietary nvidia drivers, so at bare minimum you would have had to manually enable the third-party repo and explicitly install it as the open-source drivers are missing quite a lot of functionality (and in my experience frequently glitch). Noveau drivers were being used by default. Enabling the third party repos is a one-click step that I'm pretty sure can even be done within the installer, but failing that it's also a one-click process in the software center.

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stormdelta@reddit

> Enabling the third party repos is a one-click step that I'm pretty sure can even be done within the installer, but failing that it's also a one-click process in the software center. Because I know it's _never_ as smooth as people here like to pretend, I went ahead and tested it today (Fedora 40 official image with Gnome). It might be one click to enable the repo, but actually installing the nvidia driver and getting to work was another matter entirely if you look at it from a regular person's POV: 1. Contrary to guides online, the driver does _not_ show up in the Software GUI. You have to manually install it via dnf, so now a newbie already has to use the terminal to get something basic working. And good luck guessing which pacakge you're supposed to install as there's dozens of packages with nvidia in the name and there's conflicting results if you google it. 2. Installing the driver does not enable it, contrary to implied documentation. I had to manually edit my bootloader to blacklist the module, something no layperson is going to even know is a thing, let alone know how to do. 3. Googling for the errors would've confused a regular person even more. Many links reference update-initramfs which is no longer a command, or instruct you to call dracut directly which could cause issues if the distro normally generates those entries through a script with different command line options as is often the case. I will give Fedora credit for being the first installer I've seen that can setup LUKS correctly (or at least in a functional state) out of the box. > not everyone is a gamer and the default new computer experience still worked without any problems out of the gate at least for me, I never had any glitching Gaming is a pretty common use case these days considering how easy Steam makes it, but it's not just gaming performance that's impacted. Power use can be pretty significant on laptops, and I've often had visual glitches with nouveau when running X11 apps under Wayland (this seems to be fixed somewhat as of the 555.x and newer drivers. Even just in my quick test, I wasn't able to run my monitors at full refresh rate with nouveau, and my fans kicked up when enabling the hacky workaround Gnome has for fractional scaling (another feature that isn't that unusual to want with modern display resolutions). --- Look, I'm not trying to say desktop linux is trash or whatever, I literally use it daily myself, but I also don't think we're doing the community any favors by pretending it "just works" to newcomers, especially laypeople that just want a reliable system.

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powermad80@reddit

> Installing the driver does not enable it, contrary to implied documentation Idk what to say, it very much did when I did it. I installed akmod-nvidia and it all just automatically happened. I remember reading about having to do that manual driver switching thing in the context of manual installs of drivers but as things stand akmod simply took care of everything for me. For much of the rest, I just blame GNOME as I'm a KDE and Hyprland enjoyer and don't really have much experience with GNOME. Fractional scaling does seem like something the most common default desktop environment should have worked out, so when anyone asks me about getting into linux I always tell them to try the KDE version of something by default, especially since the windows-like default settings and behavior mean the average new user can reasonably intuit their way around all default tasks.

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stormdelta@reddit

Found the culprit, I think. It appears that akmods did in fact update `/etc/kernel/cmdline` with the blacklist parameters, but for whatever reason it never calls dracut to regenerate the initrd images. I removed the manual parameters after calling `sudo dracut -f --regenerate-all` manually, and now things are working.

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stormdelta@reddit

> Idk what to say, it very much did when I did it. I installed akmod-nvidia and it all just automatically happened. I remember reading about having to do that manual driver switching thing in the context of manual installs of drivers but as things stand akmod simply took care of everything for me. Some googling shows I'm not the only one that's had problems with it not running hooks correctly after an install, and even if you knew to use the CLI it's not obvious which package is the correct one - look at the output of `sudo dnf search nvidia`, especially if the user doesn't know about X11 vs Wayland yet. Also, experienced users coming from another distro wouldn't know what akmods even is, AFAIK it's Fedora-specific. I tried to keep this install as vanilla as possible for testing - the only "unusual" things were enabling LUKS out of curiosity to see if it would work since most installers with the option don't in my experience, and using an existing EFI partition. Both of those things seemed to work as intended though. > For much of the rest, I just blame GNOME as I'm a KDE and Hyprland enjoyer and don't really have much experience with GNOME. Fractional scaling does seem like something the most common default desktop environment should have worked out, so when anyone asks me about getting into linux I always tell them to try the KDE version of something by default, especially since the windows-like default settings and behavior mean the average new user can reasonably intuit their way around all default tasks. Yeah, I'm usually a KDE person myself, I picked Gnome for this one as an excuse to try it again since I haven't used it in a long time. I will say I wish Dolphin handled dynamic network mounts the way Nautilus does - Dolphin's method results in paths that are only usable by other plasma apps.

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powermad80@reddit

First ever PC I built, it took half a day to install windows because the installer kept somehow forgetting the drivers to read a USB stick despite having booted off that same stick, so to progress the install I had to page through an obscure list of drivers it already loaded and tell the installer which one to use to keep reading the stick it's installing off. And then it happened again the next time I built a PC years later. Meanwhile Fedora just *works.*

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NuAngel@reddit (OP)

And yet people downvote you for simply answering their questions. Such a warm and embracing community!

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gplusplus314@reddit

Part of the request is to see a concrete example of user friendliness with Windows. I’ll give you one: me. I was 8 years old when I started coding and I couldn’t even read English. But Microsoft’s operating system, Windows 95 at the time, was discoverable without even having a firm grasp on the English language. The Visual Basic 3 documentation was so friendly, not only did I learn Windows API, but I was able to learn how to read English proficiently. Fast forward to 2023, I was hired to do very niche Windows programming that very few people in the world know how to do, despite me not touching Windows for almost 15 years. I was able to ramp back up nearly instantly to get the job done, all on Windows 11. Microsoft, with their Windows and development user friendliness, empowered an 8 year old kid that the public school system deemed “cognitively impaired” into a career that has literally saved lives, entertained audiences, and transacted billions of dollars. I’m tired of hearing nonsense about Windows not being user friendly. It’s simply not true. The Linux community really needs to cut the toxic crap.

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Heavy_Aspect_8617@reddit

Awesome. No reason you couldn't have done that on today's mainstream distros. That's all I'm saying.

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gplusplus314@reddit

Speaking as someone who has actually done all of what I’ve said, and as someone who has been using Linux since 2005, I think you’re wrong. In my nearly 20 years of Linux experience, I have yet to use a *desktop oriented distribution* that has fewer showstopping problems than Windows or macOS. Additionally, the Linux community of 20 years ago was much, much friendlier than it is today. Questions could be asked freely without being belittled and told to RTFM, even if it was a variation of another commonly asked question. People were welcoming and helpful and I definitely benefitted from that environment. But Windows has something Linux simply doesn’t have: a unified documentation for the platform. Each major distribution of Linux has its own ways of doing things, so you get various levels of incomplete documentation, all written differently, and all fragmented. With Windows, you have MSDN (they keep changing its name, I believe it’s called Learn now) and everything you need is cohesive, peer reviewed, tested, and supported. Windows also generally “just works” by default. That means if you’re truly a beginner, you can just start pointing and clicking at things while you discover how to use the system and it generally keeps working. The discoverability of Windows (and macOS, really) is incredibly empowering for people. Linux, with its multiple competing desktop environments that are further fragmented across distributions, doesn’t provide an equally cohesive experience that is discoverable, at least without breaking things. Also, Linux doesn’t support as much hardware as Windows. That was true 20 years ago and it’s true today, too. There is a non-zero portion of the population that has showstopping hardware incompatibilities with Linux, but everything works in Windows. There is no world where, in the context of compatibility, Linux can be argued as equally user friendly as Windows; anyone saying otherwise is in denial.

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jr735@reddit

>Windows also generally “just works” by default. Not really. It "just works" because it's set up completely for you. You go to the store, buy it, plug it in, and that's it. If governments ever prohibited pre-installing operating systems, we'd have an avalanche of tech support requests all over. Hardware "works" with Windows, generally speaking, for that very reason. A manufacturer knows with almost 100% certainty that the end user will have Windows pre-installed, whether the piece of hardware is OEM, bundled, or bought after the fact. Again, if users had to choose and install their own OSes, there would be havoc in that respect.

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gplusplus314@reddit

So you just admitted that Windows does “just work”. The *reasons* are irrelevant. Thanks for supporting my point.

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jr735@reddit

In sufficient cases, it doesn't. In my case, Linux just works perfectly. I can install Trisquel in 20 minutes and it will work as well as anything on Windows. My HP printer installs easier on Linux than the last Windows I did. And, if you think reasons don't matter, that's fine. My telemetry doesn't work. My vendor lock-in doesn't work. My terms of service don't work. All the things that really count in Windows don't apply to me. I've been away from Windows for 21 years. I seem to be alive.

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Terrible-Hornet4059@reddit

Could you give me a concrete example of why Windows isn't user-friendly?

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Heavy_Aspect_8617@reddit

My point was more that both are generally user friendly. Both have their shortcomings but its not like windows is some user friendly masterpiece while linux is an undocumented nightmare.

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NuAngel@reddit (OP)

[Concrete example video I made 7 years ago](https://nuangel.net/2017/04/which-linux-distro-for-new-users/). Obviously Arch wasn't meant to be mainstream for the purposes of this video, but it was still interesting that they couldn't even figure out how to start it OR shut it down.

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Heavy_Aspect_8617@reddit

How we referencing 7 year old videos as proof?!

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MustangBarry@reddit

Windows isn't user-friendly at all and that got quite popular

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Walzmyn@reddit

Everytime I'm forced to use Windows there's a monitor of setting the staring thinking "how the hell do I use this?" It's nuts to expect anyone moving OSes to not have a bit of a learning curve. It's also nuts to think the windows is the perfection all others are compared against.

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NuAngel@reddit (OP)

Discoverability is still key. You can infer, guess, click around until you find something. Meanwhile, if a Linux package doesn't include a man page, you're probably boned.

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Walzmyn@reddit

Umm Either OS i'm hitting Google with about equal results

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CloneCl0wn@reddit

Wel it kinda is, from user perspective all they have to do is boot up pc they bought, double click on installer they ve have found on some site(example: steam, epic games) and smash "next" button untill it launches your desired program/game. Casual user only wants something that plays cat videos, games, porn and its already nasa tech for them to set it up(i know few animals that cry when their pc is "broken" just because there was popup on their screen, the one that says your mac has virus and they re on Windows).

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retro_owo@reddit

Pretty much everything you said would be impossible for someone who has never used windows before. I’m speaking from experience working at a school, there are people who cannot operate windows at all because they’ve never used it before. They can’t understand where files they downloaded end up, they can’t understand what folders are or how to browse them. All three of the major desktop OSes are rather similar to each other, but if you have a lifetime of experience only with iOS, Android, game consoles, etc, these desktop OSes have a huge learning curve

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Terrible-Hornet4059@reddit

Why do you think Windows isn't user-friendly?

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MustangBarry@reddit

The same way keyboards aren't user-friendly. You're used to it, so you think it's easy. In reality, Qwerty and Windows are a deliberately convoluted mess. The last time I set up Windows, Windows Explorer thumbnails *aren't displayed by default.* I mean, what the fuck. Sorry I took so long to reply, Windows decided to force an update. ^* ^*Didn't actually happen. That was sarcasm.

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Engine_Light_On@reddit

Yeah, people have been using and learning windows for years and yet expect they would be as productive on the first day with Linux. It doesn’t make any sense.

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KamiIsHate0@reddit

Becos people want linux to be windows but free. It's funny that they don't have this feeling with macs.

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iheartmuffinz@reddit

It's partially the fault of how many people recommend Linux to newbies and have them thinking they're going to be working the same as Windows within a day or two. There is obviously a learning curve with any OS and trying to treat Linux like Windows is not the right way to go about it. It's also why I disapprove of "beginner friendly" distros like Mint that try to be too similar to Windows - where in reality the user is going to want to switch to Gnome or Plasma the second they realize they're missing VRR for example. Not to mention, a Linux user needs to be comfortable with basic usage of the terminal. It's just the reality of using a Linux distro, otherwise you're in for a bumpy ride the second something goes wrong or needs adjusting - but you'll find plenty of people claiming that you'll "never have to touch the terminal". People really need it stressed out to them that Linux is **not** Windows, nor is it trying to be a drop-in replacement. Every OS has its own workflow.

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KamiIsHate0@reddit

All this is a double edge sword. "You can use mint that is windows but linux" get you people interested to switch at first but run later as soon as things go wry, but "linux is a whole another beast that you will have to learn to use" make people run even before starting. I don't think that Mint being similar to windows is a problem as it really helps the transition and for basic desk work you won't ever need to touch the terminal. Still, i've been recommending tumbleweed everytime just becos it's KDE version is windows like enough without trying to be windows and it has all plasma/wayland advantages. Also, there the whole mysticism around linux bein a nerdy/IT system not to be used by mortals since 80's and i have no ideia how to mitigate that.

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TipIll3652@reddit

For real, I would much rather relearn bash than relearn windows commands. I can manipulate nearly anything on Linux with relative ease, windows makes me want to pull my hair out... And I shave my head!

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noobmasterdong69@reddit

the driver system on windows is just awful. i cannot update my graphics drivers because i get 2-3x less fps on the latest ones so im like 3 years behind. I have some stupid lenovo fn and function keys drivers that reinstall themselves and cause system stutters if i have a specific app opened and i cannot fix any of this while on linux i just type in some systemd stuff and any buggy modules are gone

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Candid_Report955@reddit

You're right. Only by being more user friendly will we ever get the unhappy people who can barely even use Windows to try out Linux.

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NuAngel@reddit (OP)

>I rarely see Linux users biting anyones head off for questions. Are you even seeing the downvotes on this post? lol

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Candid_Report955@reddit

If you'd asked a technical question about how to use Linux, it won't happen. Linux users on reddit are used to seeing anti-Linux flameposts by Windows and Mac people. Its pretty repetitive.

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jr735@reddit

>Most people are better off using a Chromebook, a phone or a game console. By most people, I mean the people who can't even program the clock on their microwave oven. This cannot be understated. The number of people who "use" Windows (or whatever OS) without having the slightest clue of what's actually going on would be the overwhelming majority. We have people who don't know what to do when a plug comes out, yet software engineers should take their time and make everything user friendly, for free.

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Brorim@reddit

have you tried linux mint

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jr735@reddit

No, he chose as an example a package no one has heard of.

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NoRecognition84@reddit

That kind of documentation looks actually pretty standard for how things were back when I first started with Linux. Considering that website as "user hostile" seems like a bit much. They just seem to assume a certain skill level. Not uncommon for applications like this. While I would agree that Linux could use some work to be more "user friendly", amavis imo is a very bad example of that. If the documentation on the amavis website seems "hostile" it is likely more due to your own skill level. I do not mean this as an insult. Working with anything connecting to mail servers is not for noobs. Similar applications running on Windows will require a pretty high skill level.

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NuAngel@reddit (OP)

I can take a "relatively tech savvy" low level help-desker and I'll bet they could get exchange running in a matter of hours. You throw the same user Postfix, Spamassassin, Amavis, and Dovecot and you're going to be there for weeks.

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NoRecognition84@reddit

They aren't the same thing. I spent the first half of my career working on NetWare and windows. Having some help desk flunkie install exchange is one thing. Having it setup right is something else entirely. Just because it's simple to click through and install doesn't mean crap.

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halfanothersdozen@reddit

I honestly don't care if more people use it on their desktop or not. Linux does its job and I can set it up how I want. I don't need it to be more user friendly. I don't care if more people start using it than already do

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npaladin2000@reddit

Might need to get over it. Linus is on Steam Decks. More people are starting to use it. And they don't even know it's Linux, nor do they care.

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halfanothersdozen@reddit

I need to get over not caring?

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npaladin2000@reddit

Get over not needing it to be more user friendly. Because it is.

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halfanothersdozen@reddit

... k.

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Terramoro@reddit

Linux projects will be better funded and more people use Linux. There isn’t really a downside.

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Automatic-Prompt-450@reddit

The downside is we get Linux Fisher Price edition because of how locked down it needs to be made so Grandma and newborn Jonny can use it before people like OP consider it user friendly.

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npaladin2000@reddit

Nothing wrong with that. Especially if it saves me family tech-support calls

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mina86ng@reddit

Sure, but you probably care if hardware you buy works with Linux. And unless there are users, [hardware manufacturers won’t care about Linux support](https://new.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/s3yeu4/comment/hso9lt4/).

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halfanothersdozen@reddit

I generally don't buy components that don't work with the system I am trying to build. This also has not presented itself as a problem with anything I have needed it to

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Rikey_Doodle@reddit

Ya I'm also in this boat. I use various different linux distros on my machines and I'm happy with the desktop experience (Debian+KDE). I genuinely do not care if more people start using Linux. They can use Windows or MacOS, what do I care?

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Automatic-Prompt-450@reddit

It IS use friendly, it's just not braindead friendly. We've been over this, just use the search function

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Odin_ML@reddit

This is not a dig at you. But your comment to the OP, is a beautiful summary of EVERYTHING that is wrong with us.

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Rikey_Doodle@reddit

There's nothing wrong with the comment. It's direct, factual, and provides an action item for moving forward. Linux is a tool. Learn to use your tools, or don't use them.

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Odin_ML@reddit

That's our problem. We are direct, factual, and impatient. Intolerant of criticism or repeated questioning. The very opposite of good teachers. Linux is doomed to remain where it is.

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PerceptualEmergence1@reddit

Good teachers don't spoonfeed their students the test answers. They encourage them to do their own research and problem solving, and they point them in the right direction when they get stuck on a problem.

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Rikey_Doodle@reddit

>The very opposite of good teachers. Since when are we teachers? I have a degree in engineering, not early childhood education. >Linux is doomed to remain where it is. Sounds good to me? All my use cases are covered. If it's missing something you need go build it, or fund it, or complain about it on a forum full of unpaid volunteers.

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jr735@reddit

>Linux is doomed to remain where it is. That's a good thing. I don't want it to become what proprietary operating systems have become.

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EmptierVoid@reddit

I think that's everything what's right. Like Torvalds once said: "if you treat your users like idiots, only idiots will use you software".

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gplusplus314@reddit

So let’s just be a bunch of assholes to everyone who wasn’t born knowing everything. Got it.

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gplusplus314@reddit

The fact that you’re downvoted is another beautiful summary of what’s wrong with the Linux community.

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jr735@reddit

How is it something that is "wrong" here. Honesty is not wrong. I don't owe potential Linux users a damned thing. People who are volunteering to share their own personal projects with the general public don't owe users a damned thing, either. We're supposed to expect free tech support and projects catered to users, yet if said users are told to RTFM, that's wrong? What a load of bollocks.

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samtheredditman@reddit

Imo, expecting the end user to have done their homework is part of what makes the OS so much better than the alternatives.

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nelson777@reddit

Look... I know you Windows guys like simple stuff and big buttons with "next" written in it so you know what to do with the button, but... there are things that need you to read stuff. I know that this may be to far fetched to you. That's why there is this thing called windows that minimizes these confuse things for you. Just press the big buttons and you're all set. Know if you can leave we have some more important things to discuss here. Thanks.

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NuAngel@reddit (OP)

Times\*, not things. Now\* not know. Hopefully one of things you're planning to discuss is spelling. But, hey, I'm proud of you for using the right "there," and even the correct "you're!"

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richardxday@reddit

I always find these complaints about what Linux distros 'need to do' a bit amusing, they're like watching a whole bunch of health workers trying to keep patients alive and then start telling them what they're doing wrong. Just imagine how that would make them feel? Linux, Linux distros and OSS rely on the hard work of 1000's of people who are often not paid for their work and are almost never thanked. To assume you bring anything new to their world view is pretty arrogant IMHO. I very much doubt any authors of OSS on reading such complaints would suddenly say "Oh my god, you're right! That's what I've been doing wrong all these years, I'll get right on to it!" This stuff is FREE, it does not cost you a penny to own and use and often you STILL have more freedom with OSS than with commercial software. I've use GNOME and KDE and there are issues with them and yeah I wish they could do this or that. But then I remember I'm a software engineer so before whinging about stuff I should help out! Then I remember I have so little free time and feel sorry for all those who are spending their free time working on this stuff which people are all too happy to complain about but not help out on. (yes I know commercial companies pay for a lot of development but my concern is for those who are working for free) So, yes, the GIMP may not be as user friendly or as powerful as Photoshop but I know I can use it on any computer running any OS without paying a penny. That is worth more to me than the extra power of Photoshop. It's like fitness: it's easy to compare yourself to those around you who are fitter, faster or stronger and feel a failure. But you should never do that - you don't know what they've done to get where they are. You should only compare you now to yourself a couple of months ago and judge yourself on how YOU'VE improved. If anyone considers that OSS should improve faster or in certain directions then help out and be part of the journey instead of just commenting from the sidelines!

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djthecaneman@reddit

This has to be one of the weirder complaints about Linux I've seen. You started off with a web page about an app I wouldn't expect any normal user to seek out and then went on to complain how esoteric it is. There are plenty of complaints worth making, but for ordinary users, you can buy a computer with Linux pre-installed. It'll have all the basic apps available at first startup. If you want games, Steam is pretty easy to install. It's not always easy to know what apps to use if you want to, say, edit a picture, but the options are there. Esoteric tools maintained by small groups of volunteers? Yeah. Those get pretty cryptic.

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NuAngel@reddit (OP)

And I very specifically said it isn't just server apps, that was just one example. If you open up GIMP for the first time and tell me it's as intuitive as Photoshop, you're lying to yourself. OSS community as a whole has so much learning to do.

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npaladin2000@reddit

It is as intuitive as Photoshop. Photoshop isn't all that intuitive unless you've used it for 20 years.

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djthecaneman@reddit

Admittedly GIMP 2.x looks more like Photoshop 4 than the latest round. BTW. How long have you been using Photoshop? I find most photo and video editing tools to be unintuitive until I've spent some time with them. Latest for me was DaVinci Resolve after being used to Kdenlive, both on Linux. Both were easy once I got used to them. But I wouldn't call either immediately intuitive. As for Photoshop, I haven't used it since 4.0. Probably would need some tutorials to get used to the latest versions.

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noobmasterdong69@reddit

i used gimp before photoshop and gimp was more intuitive because i used it first

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jr735@reddit

It's a very cherry picked example. Oh, the general public, as a whole, has so much learning to do.

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RoseBailey@reddit

I just checked. It looks like gimp starts in single window mode by default these days, and in single window mode, it looks pretty similar to Photoshop. Some things are in different places, but not cloning Photoshop's layout isn't a strike against it.

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powermad80@reddit

To anyone running a modern distro with KDE desktop this criticism is incoherent. Like, what the hell are you talking about dude, everything is so easy now my tech illiterate parents had no issue with it

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AutoModerator@reddit

This submission has been removed due to receiving too many reports from users. The mods have been notified and will re-approve if this removal was inappropriate, or leave it removed. This is most likely because: * Your post belongs in r/linuxquestions or r/linux4noobs * Your post belongs in r/linuxmemes * Your post is considered "fluff" - things like a Tux plushie or old Linux CDs are an example and, while they may be popular vote wise, they are not considered on topic * Your post is otherwise deemed not appropriate for the subreddit *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/linux) if you have any questions or concerns.*

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RoseBailey@reddit

You're complaining about user-friendliness, but are pointing to an obscure piece of software not meant for and end user? I'm sorry, but do you have examples relevant to the desktop user experience, given that is what we are generally talking about when discussing how user friendly Linux is?

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MutualRaid@reddit

This is the most pertinent critcism - it's an obscure daemon an end user is unlikely to be interacting with. However the page *is* actually very user friendly for those who might look for it. It's also incredibly lightweight and simple - accessible over the most humble network connection and easily parsable by any ancient screenreader familiar with the old subset of html it uses.

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NuAngel@reddit (OP)

Again, not everyone is a brand new user looking for their first Linux desktop. I'm not TALKING about end-users, that was my entire point. Sometimes a server admin is forced to step in to an environment that they didn't build. The website for Amavis is just this daunting endless scroll of jargon, and it's FAR from the only page I've seen like that. Linux, as a whole, is a bunch of documentation written by engineers rather than technical writers - documentation which makes a lot of assumptions, as if you've been managing Linux environments for decades. If you were a Windows Server admin who didn't make the jump to 365 and instead took a job at a Linux-based firm, it's not just an uphill climb, it's more like climbing a rock face.

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NuAngel@reddit (OP)

More proof in the pudding. Downvoted just for explaining. lol Predictable subreddit is predictable.

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RoseBailey@reddit

Yes. What is user friendly differs depending on who the software is for. What is user friendly for a sys admin is very different from what is user friendly for grandma, and grandma isn't going to be using that software.

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Compizfox@reddit

This. Take a look at a website of some software aimed at desktop users: https://kde.org/plasma-desktop/

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npaladin2000@reddit

Linux has already come out of server closets, and "user friendly" doesn't necessarily mean "like Windows." The Steam Deck in particular comes to mind. It's Linux, it's not in the server room, and it's very user friendly. Embedded applications like that (including Bazzite on the "windows" handhelds and other embedded applications) are ideal for Linux. Honestly, I think if Linux is going to spread futher into the consumer desktop (which is what I think you actually meant) then it's not going to be Linux as most people know it now. It's going to be immutable setups, with Flatpak "app stores" which is a paradigm people understand, and won't force them to become highly technical Linux users. Because most people should NOT have to become terminal ninjas or 'Learn real Linux" to use Linux. That's why they're called "users" and not "sysadmins." Not sure what Amavis has to do with any of it though, that's a very poor example, except maybe as documentation. Maybe the Arch documentation illistruates your point better? It's very good and very detailed but most end users do NOT need that level of knowledge to play Steam games and watch cat videos. .

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hojjat12000@reddit

As user friendly as cmd+shift+4+space?

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gplusplus314@reddit

This thread is full of people who completely missed the point, furthering the OP’s point. A great way to keep Linux out of mainstream desktop computers is to push people away from it by creating a hostile environment. If that’s the goal, it’s succeeding.

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Crazy_Amphibian_8440@reddit

it’s no use bro. They don’t listen to reason here. Same users who live by CLI and think it should be learned will ask when the year of linux is

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PJBonoVox@reddit

No, no-one who actually knows and uses Linux asks that question. Year of desktop Linux for me was about 2005.

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Crazy_Amphibian_8440@reddit

must be new to this sub

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N5tp4nts@reddit

Try installing a sharepoint server for some perspective.

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Buddy-Matt@reddit

I'd take the Arch Wiki, or _any_ Linux based community over a Microsoft community any day of the week. Sure, sometimes you do get dicks just shouting "rtfm" without actually contributing any helpful advice. And sure, you sometimes find someone else with your exact problem and no helpful replies... But what you don't find is a copy and paste "Hi, I'm a Microsoft Certified partner. Have you tried running xyz diagnostic tool?" Marked as accepted despite the fact it's helped noone and the person with the original problem already said they ran it. At least "Rtfm" comes from a place of frustration with people asking before trying to figure things out themselves. The responses in a Microsoft forum appear to assume everyone has the computing knowledge of a domestic housecat, and not once have I ever actually seen an answer that actually helps someone figure out what's really broken and fix it. Just countless pointers to a tool that's probably never helped anyone.

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Zdendon@reddit

Or just like trying to set up anything in windows is nightmare.

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Hrafna55@reddit

Installing it is easy. Configuring it is labyrinthine marathon. Maintaining it is a Sisyphean nightmare.

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tyami94@reddit

Or properly implementing exchange as another (slightly outdated) example

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pikecat@reddit

If someone actually made Linux into a mass market consumer product, it would be forked and the rest if hs would be back to Linux as it is now. Things that appeal to the mass market are not what everyone wants. I don't understand all the calls for Linux to become one.

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swn999@reddit

It’s more user friendly now, I remember making a lilo boot floppy to load cdrom drivers then tinkering with the command line to setup partitions.

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8--------D-@reddit

what a unique and brave statement

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stormdelta@reddit

Agreed, though nobody here wants to hear it lol. I like running Linux on my PC but it is in _no_ way suitable for laypeople, and honestly even as a software engineer with a decade of professional experience and two decades of Linux experience, if I didn't enjoy tinkering with the OS it _still_ wouldn't be worth it. Though I'd argue the problem has more to do with stability, reliability, and working out of the box than anything. Even in 2024 a shit ton of hardware does not work properly out of the box, and it can be nearly impossible to troubleshoot if you're not already an expert (and even if you are, that troubleshooting can be very time consuming). I've also found that guides online can be incredibly misleading as you don't always know how old / out-of-date a given bit of information is, or it might be making assumptions that aren't obvious. This has gotten worse over time as changes have piled up over the years while articles and guides remain online for years and years.

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AirTuna@reddit

Title is misleading: This isn't a *discussion*, it's a wall-to-wall series of criticisms.

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Odin_ML@reddit

Linux People =/= Normal People We are often neurodivergent in some way, scatter-brained, or obsessed to-a-fault about details. Impatient with ourselves, and others. Simultaneously, pompous and humble. And extremely unsociable, unless we spend a LOT of time and effort trying to build a sociable persona. In other words, Linux People do NOT know how to sell themselves or their product.

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Rikey_Doodle@reddit

> We are often neurodivergent in some way, scatter-brained, or obsessed to-a-fault about details. Impatient with ourselves, and others. That's a crazy number of assumptions to make about a non-homogenous group of people connected only by their interest in a specific piece of software. Care to share some supporting numbers and sources?

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onefish2@reddit

I relate to these descriptions. I do not if I should be happy or sad.

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Odin_ML@reddit

I know my people. lol

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AmSoDoneWithThisShit@reddit

Linux is exactly as user-friendly as you want it to be. My son is a self-described luddite (don't know where I went wrong with that one), and he uses Linux mint on his gaming computer, I don't think he's ever opened a text editor.

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Gobliiins@reddit

just downvote this ridiculous "genuine discussion" to oblivion

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PJBonoVox@reddit

"Linux users seem to constantly complain about never getting enough recognition" Cite some sources if you want a 'geniune discussion'. This just sounds like something you've made up.

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shikkonin@reddit

> The first paragraph is two sentences of jargon with no hyperlinks or definitions for an of the acronyms or explanations of other products Huh? First, why would one product documentation explain other products? Second, any sysadmin with even the tiniest sliver of professional experience will read this paragraph and know exactly what it's about.

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DFS_0019287@reddit

Nah. I find Windows far more user-hostile than Linux. And Linux is "out of the server closets". It's running on every Android phone and pretty much all consumer devices such as smart TVs, routers, streaming boxes, etc.

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BarePotato@reddit

If you are a career systems/network admin and can't understand the software you use... how are you doing the job that long? This is the problem with conjecture. It usually comes from people that don't know what they are talking about, which is why they go on to complain about software user friendliness and then use something not even remotely meant for end-users as an example. come on, bro. It's not an exclusive club, and to be frank, that's a minority segment of Linux users(desktop or otherwise) who act that way. They just like to be way, way louder, so the perception is different. The lions share of Linux is quite welcoming, minus some niche regions that can be abrasive if you don't have a clue what's going on(IE: kernel dev), even then, that's not to exclude you.

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realnedsanders@reddit

I would argue that the Windows ecosystem is far more user hostile than Linux.

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Kanaloa1958@reddit

There are a number of very user friendly distros available. ZorinOS, Q4OS, BunsenLabs and many others. I used Debian Linux for years for software development and was fine with it but I would hardly compare a software dev with your average user. Newer versions seem to be getting heavy and slow, like the *buntu distros and I've seen some performance issues on older hardware which makes me question the "runs great on older hardware" claim. The bigger problem is the consumer level apps that are available. Yes, with enough research you can find replacement apps for the Windows or Mac apps that you currently use but I've found that they are mostly sub par from a features standpoint so you end up having to sacrifice functionality that you may seem important, the interface is not necessarily consistent and support/troubleshooting could be a major issue for non-technical users since so much of the software is FOSS. Ultimately I switched to Mac because I just couldn't deal with Windows at all for performance and philosophical reasons. It was close enough to Linux at the command line to be familiar and the apps were consistent and worked. It's not problem free but none of them are. I'm not shilling for Apple, I still periodically try to go back to Linux but end up using it more for special purposes rather than general use.

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KamiIsHate0@reddit

Everyday someone make this exact post affirming things they don't understand about. "This SERVER application is too hard i can't read" if you're a end-user you shouldn't be reading about server apps and if you're a sysadmin you should be able to read it. How can user end linux be easier than today? You boot it from a pendrive, install it with a gui like windows, you open a app store and download you basic programs. What more a end user needs? You can run mint/pop\_OS/openSUSE without ever opening a terminal if you don't want.

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octahexxer@reddit

Linux is a raw os it doesnt hide stuff from the user...in windows they hide everything...but windows is complex under the skin...doesnt help that microsoft warps stuff they steal from others and make up new words for stuff they nabbed. In linux you are suddenly faced with all that machinery under the surface. Its not a flaw its on purpose ...you can dig into everything under that surface learn about it and screw around with it. If windows breaks its just broken and thats the end of the road no knowledge to be had. In linux you trade effort and time invested to for the first time grow from a baby booping and bopping shiny buttons to a real user. The gap between windows and linux is growing where the baby users now cant even stop windows from doing what it wants and install whatever it wants while taking screenshots off your desktop and loading it to a server they dont have control over...and removing the control from the user...while spamming ads and hiding more and more options in the start menu. They even took away the sound volume bar for gods sake. Linux should not and will not go down that path on purpose...but there sure is people who wants it to. Linux is not windows and it has flaws but its evolving and doing it in the right direction and i think the biggest hurdle is accepting its not windows and actually you might have to buy a book or spend some days on youtube to understand what linux really is and how it works. You didnt pay a dime for linux and its coded by people for free...and all you have to do in return is pick up a book or watch some videos to learn it.

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lorololl@reddit

True, every Linux distro should be a windows clone so that windows users don't complain that it's different. There also shouldn't be any package management and software should be installed by googling it and download from the website, because having to learn how to do things differently is just absurd. Grow up, a different OS is going to, well, be different and requires re-learning things. You'd say the same thing about windows if you were switching from Linux to Windows.

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Otaehryn@reddit

Linux on the server is way more user friendly than Windows. You get verbose meaningful logs and error messages point you towards the solution.

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segfault0x001@reddit

There’s 2 things here: 1) having clear concise documentation that is accessible to the newest adopters is a moving goal post. The audience is an ever changing demographic with unknowable background and experience level. You can’t explain everything like it’s day one of using a computer. You have to assume some knowledge to begin with. 2) even when writing for a sufficiently experienced audience it is really difficult to predict which things are going to be hard to understand and which are not. It’s hard to remember which things were stumbling blocks for us when we were getting started. More importantly, it can be really difficult to tell if what you have written is clear to someone else because you know what you intended to say. It can be hard to see past “what I meant to say” and see “what I actually said”. People really take good documentation for granted. Balancing comprehensively covering everything without being too verbose is a delicate thing. Probably I’ve even proven that point here myself.

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mwyvr@reddit

Who is complaining? Amavis is a very old package that hasn't had a release since 2018 and you expect the docs to be 2024 standards? Cool. As for the video, you do realize they are mostly discussing what were commerical products sold to the mass market by large companies (with large budgets), right? In the case of Arch, I will disagree. Most of the Arch wiki is not at the same level as the usage guide for `pacman`, their own tool, and that is understandable. I'm not denying the comprehensiveness or usefulness of the Arch wiki - but I am saying that **most** of it isn't user-grade information. Random page I accessed today: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/AMDGPU

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Due-Vegetable-1880@reddit

Sadly, as long as these FOSS projects remain developed and maintained exclusively by engineers, we're going to continue seeing cryptic documentation. Technical writers in the open source space are few and far between, and hiring one is sometimes prohibitively expensive for small projects

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NotARedditUser3@reddit

At this point you could just ask chatgpt for a dummed down explanation of what that software is and how to use it

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fsckit@reddit

My technophobic 75 year old father can use his Linux laptop perfectly well. There's nothing wrong with Linux' ease of use. The issue is that you used Windows first and are assuming (incorrectly) that that is the right way of doing things.

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renaneduard0@reddit

In my opinion Linux mint is way user friendly then Windows 11 with its complicated system settings and almost hidden privacy settings.

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NotARedditUser3@reddit

Separate from my other joke comment here - That amavis page looks spectacular. The intended audience for that software isn't someone who's never touched linux. That's not the purpose of all software on linux. It's a very specific piece of software, and it's well documented. In general, you'll find that people would rather lean towards having fully featured pieces of software that can accomplish many different needs, rather than just making them look nice or easy to use. Easy to use/learn is nice, but it's not the main priority. Performance and getting the actual work done is the priority. To your complaint about whether there's links for every little acronym - It's **an open source piece of software.** Being built by someone (Or, likely, a group of someones) who's not getting paid for it. If you don't like that, you can go and fork it and produce a user-friendly alternative to it. But, of course, there's no actual incentive to do so, because it's free software. That piece of software solves the problem it was needed to solve. It was documented, and the developer(s), after attending to the needs of the project (Bugs, maintenance, etc) does not think "Oh, how can I make this appeal to less experienced users". They're just going to move on to other things they need to do, because that's what we all do, unless there's a pressing need to do otherwise. And this particular piece of software has nothing to do with linux's low desktop adoption rate. That is mostly borne out of nearly all PC sales that aren't macs, having windows pre-installed on them, and the average user not having a **need** for anything else, thus never venturing out and discovering linux, or while knowing linux exists, never bothering to replace windows with it, because for that user, it would be solving a problem that they don't yet actually have or care about.

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Whit-Batmobil@reddit

What distributions have you tried, because pretty much every distribution I have tried that have been advertised as user-friendly have been, well user friendly. That goes for: SteamOS, PopOS, Ubuntu, Fedora and Kali (if you aren’t completely unfamiliar with terminal package mangers). I would say Garuda, but that was a complete diva to keep happy and running, don’t get me wrong Garuda was lovely to use, but frequent kernel panics, which eventually lead to my installation being nuked, when it kernel panicked during a system update.. And the one thing I don’t like about PopOS, wine and Bottles not really working, can be circumvented by using Lutris..

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FactoryOfShit@reddit

Breaking news: software designed for professionals isn't intuitive to your average Joe. Try going to https://linuxmint.com/ - pretty user friendly with a big "Download" and "Installation guide" buttons. This is what software intended for the average user looks like.

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hooloovoop@reddit

If there was even a remotely realistic prospect of the average user having to touch amavisd, you might have a point. But there isn't, so you don't. The everyday user stuff is already easy. The advanced stuff isn't as easy, but if people are willing to read documentation it is doable (evidently). But regular users never touch the advanced stuff in Windows either, and when you want to anything that's actually slightly complex it's virtually or literally impossible in Windows anyway.

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Reddit_User_Original@reddit

I think Ubuntu is very user friendly, I appreciate how things work by default, and installing applications is very easy. Many other distros require significantly more configuration and setup. Like new users should not be using Alpine or Debian. Ubuntu or Mint are good starting places.

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buttershdude@reddit

I couldn't agree more. All the nerdy time consuming commandline crap is nothing more than a waste of time and cause of frustration that drives people away from desktop Linux adoption. The Mint developers have the right idea.

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erroronline1@reddit

[relevant](https://imgur.com/a/rJnFb5Y)

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Coldfriction@reddit

Meh, if you want it better you make it better. Complaining that others didn't make it how you'd like for free is pointless. Linux works how it does for the people that want it to do what it does for them and are willing to put in the effort to make it so. What is "user friendly" or not depends on who you are and what you want to do with the skillset you have. People making money need to attract customers for their products; most FOSS contributors don't need to attract users at all.

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NotARedditUser3@reddit

Sorry, last week someone said that in order to get linux out of server closets we'd need to be more verbose. Like, a LOT more verbose. Minimalistic, too. They said they wanted anyone who used linux to have read the manpages, and to have at least 5 years experience building a kernel. Oh, and they use arch btw.

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