I always want to make this point but it’s incredibly unpopular. If fake gears and sound effects are good enough for most people then I guess it is what it is.
2028 Chevrolet Camaro ESS featuring Logitech G Pro Driving Experience (subscription available)
Nah capacitive touch got too expensive, we have a camera watching you and everything is gesture based. Also we sell the footage and audio to every advertising company there is.
No I mean it’s fun because of what it’s doing that’s different. It has simulated gears and engine noises and even if it’s cheesy, all that I’ve read says it’s actually rad
Oh I see, still it's a shame it's another thing they have to fake now to make fun that used to just be inherent. I wish there was some secret way to make EV more fun like actually using real gears but oh well
That’s all gonna be rolled back imo. Every car manufacturer is rolling back because few people want pure EVs. My next car will probably be a plug in hybrid and eventually I want to get a classic car for fun (something inexpensive ideally) and Porsche is still innovating in their ICE vehicles. I’m not too worried
There's no pragmatic reason to change your desktop or phone wallpaper either, but most people do. Personalization and differentiation from an invisible default go a long way towards letting people feel like a thing is "theirs."
Yeah the analog here you’re thinking of is paint color or interior materials.
This is skinning windows 11 to look like Mac OS or vice versa. Sure the aesthetic is there or whatever but for people who really care there’s going to be things different or lacking one way or another.
Well, I was more thinking that the desktop background serves a singular purpose: to house the icons. And the drivetrain serves a singular purpose: to propel the car. That you can then create a scenario where a user chooses to use it in a different way - for artistic expression/personalization, or in the case of a car, fun - is distinctly not a pragmatic part of the requirements for either, but can feel additive nonetheless.
This is the techy overlap that is going to alienate an older or more traditional crowd. Authenticity, for a lot of us, does truly matter.
Even your language here, user for instance, suggests that you’re coming at this from a completely different angle. It’s fine, but for a lot of people what you’re saying here is not going to solve the problem they hope it’ll solve.
Modern ICE cars have a lot of that too. Like the fake gears in the '15 CVT WRX I had, or those intake sound tube things, or straight up electronic engine noise like in the Ecoboost Mustang. My C7 definitely had a factory pop/burble tune in race exhaust mode. Modern factory turbo cars seem to go out of there way to muffle all the cool boost noises and pretend to be N/A. Fakeness is everywhere in modern cars regardless of what powers them, engineers already have to do work to provide a certain powertrain aesthetic when modern ICE tech no longer does it naturally.
Personally I like when electric stuff just silently makes torque, but that's subjective of course.
I actually genuinely like the concept of fake gears and sound effects purely because they can be customized to emulate different kinds of engines. If done correctly, it could transform a boring sedan into a sim racing rig that can actually move.
I can’t deal with the lack of authenticity in this scenario and there’s no sufficient way to justify that to someone who doesn’t lean that way to begin with because it is entirely subjective.
I won’t hate on the idea. I will make jokes about it. I won’t spend money on it, but if it makes the market happy, so be it.
> I can’t deal with the lack of authenticity in this scenario
100% agreed it just seems so ridiculous and I’m genuinely surprised more people aren’t bothered by it.
I can’t imagine how much of a clown I’d feel like telling my passengers the V8 noises coming from my car are from the speakers.
I wouldn't want it if I had the alternative of a combustion engine, but I'd rather have something artificial than an entirely soulless driving experience.
Cars are differentiated pretty bigly by the motor. The sounds, the vibrations. When the cars all feel the same, it's all a skateboard with just a dial of how much power you want that makes no difference, they need to differentiate in other ways. It will be novelty things like sound packs, or interiors, or weird esoteric designs.
Have you seen Toyota small car options?
Porte, sienta, funcargo.
All little weird cars with great practically for they use cases they were made for looks are a bit odd.
The porte comes with an electric wheelchair that's has a loading arm the lifts it and the occupant into the passengers seat and charges it up.
I see lots of things like this once the ev skateboard gets standardized. Just bolt whatever you want on top.
> I always want to make this point but it’s incredibly unpopular.
Because it's not really relevant for enthusiast vehicles. Yes, commuter EV SUVs are similar. But nobody is waxing poetic about the subtle differences in driving experience between an Escape, RAV4, and CRV either.
For SUVs with enthusiast appeal that share an engine and platform like the VAG family of Q7/8, Cayenne, Bentayga, and Urus, nobody who's driven them all says they're the same driving experience. All of that means that cars on the same platform can provide a different experience to the driver independent of drivetrain. And if ICEVs can do it then EVs can too, as with the Taycan and e-Tron GT.
All else equal, suspension is probably the biggest differentiator. Then software tuning for torque delivery because a flat torque curve and full torque from rest are not appropriate for every car. Apart from that there are battery packaging and weight distribution differences that set cars apart. And then there's the obvious one of number of motors which can dramatically alter vehicle behavior.
It's as though people think of the engine as **the** experience instead of just a part of it.
That your response to this is a deep dive into the performance SUV lineup from VAG, and your nearly offensive downplaying of the impact the drivetrain has on the character of the car, I’m going to go ahead and let you know we are worlds apart as enthusiasts.
Your justification for all this just made me feel like the future is even more bleak.
I’m glad you’re happy for it.
That was to illustrate that the drivetrain is not the only determinant of a car's character. VAG SUVs were just the easiest example because they have four well-known SUVs with the same drivetrain and platform.
But I am happy for it. A future of EV performance cars opens a segment to me that I wouldn't consider in the ICE era.
I used to think that something would come along that I’d be excited for, but I’ve come to terms that I’ve been waiting for that for the better part of a decade. Just very aware of the things that I enjoy becoming less popular and that’s the way things work.
That said, for the category of automotive that is very, very much defined by its engine, particularly the noise and character of it, namely the USDM performance market past and present in my case, I think EVs are going to struggle to capture that particular audience as meaningless and dwindling as we are.
Even if we're comparing like-for-like engines, on similar platforms, a EA888 Macan with PASM is leagues different to drive than a Q5 with the same engine. Nobody is saying engines don't make a difference. Q5 vs. V6 Macan is an even larger difference than the EA888 models. But you can definitely differentiate cars past the powertrain.
And same goes for EVs, e-tron GT vs. Taycan, even within a brand the model 3 & model 3 performance drive quite differently, and as u/strongmanass mentioned, a lot of that is down suspension tuning. (The 3-performance comes with redesigned top mounts, adaptive damping, different sway bar, and more)
There is so much you can do with chassis tuning & suspension work
Yeah that’s always been true. For all cars. Forever.
I like loud engines that shake and buzz the entire cabin and I like rowing my own and trying to not die in the process because when you turn the TC off in my car, it’s off.
I know EVs can simulate this or whatever. It doesn’t interest me. I know half this subreddit is gonna have all kinds of smoke for me suggesting that I subjectively prefer a pickup truck engine to an electric motor if my goal is to go out and have fun.
No I haven’t driven every single latest EV that could potentially sway my opinion.
As stated above, unpopular opinion.
Yeah that’s always been true. For all cars. Forever.
I like loud engines that shake and buzz the entire cabin and I like rowing my own and trying to not die in the process because when you turn the TC off in my car, it’s off.
I know EVs can simulate this or whatever. It doesn’t interest me. I know half this subreddit is gonna have all kinds of smoke for me suggesting that I subjectively prefer a pickup truck engine to an electric motor if my goal is to go out and have fun.
No I haven’t driven every single latest EV that could potentially sway my opinion.
As stated above, unpopular opinion.
I bought two, a 2013 Leaf and a 2018 Leaf. Apparently about 90,000 other people bought the 2018 Leaf as well.
People rag on the Leaf and I have absolutely no idea why. If you don't live in a hot climate and you don't do long road-trips in your EV it actually is a great little car. The Leaf was a second car (well, actually a fourth car), but the one we drove for any local trips.
Unlike the modern trend, on the inside it feels like a regular car. Buttons and switches. Door latches that open when you want and stay closed when you want. I'm tall and find it perfectly comfortable. It feels like a moderately nice economy car, and that's what it is.
The main downside is that it's a Nissan. My 2018 had battery issues that limited the range to about 90 miles, and it took Nissan 6 months and the threat of a lemon law lawsuit to fix it. Infuriating because I had done the work to identify exactly which cell in the pack was bad, and the eventual fix took like an hour. Not to mention when I hit a deer Nissan charged, literally, $2000 for a headlamp module.
I could see buying another, but I got spoiled with the $7,500 rebate on my 2018, which put me in a nicely equipped version for about $19K. These days it would cost me $30K+.
It can't be worse than Rivian's lol ...
> According to Rivian's latest financial reports and stock price the company's current Operating Margin is -109.91%
Disagree. With no gaskets to fail or transmission to grenade itself this is the best thing to buy on the used market.
Let somebody who always wants the newest shiniest thing take the depreciation over a few years.
Like everyone talks about how the only thing stopping them from buying a used E Class instead of a new "average" car is the maintenance. But EVs have the potential to remove that factor for those that want them.
Of course the market will adjust and they'll likely end up depreciating slower, but a Lexus RX is significantly cheaper to maintain than your average BMW yet the RX still depreciates.
Disagree. I wouldn’t want to own these past warranty. I know a machine shop that will work on most engines if I needed a rebuild. I know used parts are everywhere.
I don’t know anyone rebuilding a Tesla/Rivian battery local to me and I am in major metro area.
Early adoption is expensive.
I kind of understand Rivian though. From what I've seen smaller/cheaper options are in the pipeline, but bringing out your high margin vehicles first is a safer play for a new company. Tesla did the same right?
Yep. It’s really hard to manufacture vehicles and leaning into mass production models that need the lowest possible cost is a tall task for new companies. It’s much easier/smarter to start out with lower volume, high $, high margin products then scale production for low end models once you build competency and capital.
Due to battery tech the range of the vehicle is basically tied to the size.
If you come out of the gate with a compact EV you can only fit so many batteries in the floor; the range would be ~200 miles (Which is entirely fine for so many people) and your car gets review bombed because people panic when they see ranges on EVs and the entire online discourse is dominated by peoples imaginary trips across the continental US.
Actually forget even that, if someone could make a reliable car that didn't have a CVT or look like a gerbil which I could actually drive off a lot for 25k or less they would have my money. I really don't car if it has camp chairs for seats like a Citroen 2cv or doesn't have a radio like a base 2000 Ranger. If you could sell me a brand new brz with a 1.8 corolla engine in it, 15" steelies, no headliner, carpet, driver assists (other than those required by law), back seats, radio, door panels, or AC unit for less than 25k I would be at the dealership tomorrow.
I understand there's a huge used market for people in my socioeconomic group, but as prices go up the used market will dwindle as well if most people can't afford to buy a new car. I'm sick of a market where someone making 5k a month is car poor buying a five year old civic.
Sorry for the dumb rant lol
Tl;dr We need more stripped down basic cars like the Beetle and 2cv
You are largely correct, however there are a lot of advantages to buying a new car, for example the fact that you know *exactly* how it has been treated since it was sold. I know it's an amount of peace-of-mind a guy gets portion of the population sincerely wishes they could afford. That said, I don't think the advantages are enough for people to forego luxury features, so in the end I agree with your take.
In the end, it *is* on the buyer. Anecdotally, most people I talk to now days value luxury features like heated seats and steering wheels much more in economy cars than anyone would have even 15 years ago. Assuming that's the case, those if us without money coming out of our asses are going to buy higher trimmed cars used until it is no longer financially viable to do so whatsoever. Then we'll probably see fleet style base models available again or just stop owning cars
Send the Dacia sandero stateside? The previous model lowest spec came with black bumpers, no radio, no central locking, manual windows - safety kit was driver, passenger and side air bags (mandated and cheap out of the parts bin, they are owned by Renault) alongside abs.
Suspension was reinforced as that model is also sold in places where "road" is a relative term (so pretty hard to break) and they went to town under sealing it from the factory.
It really is a good vehicle, and you get a lot for what you pay, as it has at least the features a full blown luxury car from the late 90s, like an E39 5 series or Lexus GS would have, both of which would be in the 55-65k range now adjusted for inflation. But if we could have something like a 90s economy car again, no heated seats, no massive infotainment, no expensive non-necessities, I think the price could go down quite a bit.
Not saying Rivians don't have rattle issues, but you could do that search with any other brand and you'd find rattles.
Googling "Porsche rattles", I can find posts of people with GT4RS, 911 4S, Macans and Taycans complaining about rattles, all on the first page. It's confirmation bias. Doesn't prove anything.
Too bad everyone only sees the MPGe.... with a make believe 6.67x energy content of fuel for EVs. I would like to know what its real equivalent MPG is. I've calculated it for the Tesla Y... it's equivalent to a car getting 44mpg...Still good for how heavy it is. It would be interesting to see what these 9k pound vehicles are getting.
I simply did the MPGe calculation and removed the 6.67x electric vehicle fuel economy multiplier from the petroleum equivalency factor. I also corrected for the current US power grid overall efficiency and include transmission line losses and power conversion losses. I did not include the cost for recylcing EV battery packs. There's not much information there as it is still a growing industry that only exists due to government funding BUT it is extremely costly and requires a great deal of energy. I also did not include the cooling systems found on Tesla vehicles which is equivalent to a home 3ton heat pump. I verified my results by comparing the MPG to a Toyota Sienna which has roughly the same weight, and, being a hybrid, has regenerative braking.
I did the same. Because I like driving interesting cars.
And I'm always willing to be convinced that somehow a manufacturer has cracked the code and come up with better infotainment, and I'm always disappointed. I'm squarely in the target market for this car. Reasonably affluent techie who likes cars and likes doing outdoorsy things, but I just cannot abide infotainment lock-in.
I listened to the Rivian CEO's interview on The Verge podcast last week; he makes the ridiculous claim that he's following in Apple's footsteps. But on my Mac I can use Slides if I don't like Keynote. I can use Thorium if I don't like Safari. I can use vim if I don't like Textedit.
Big shame that. I wonder how close these cars are to being jailbroken to make that doable anyway. I’m guessing the barrier to entry is a little higher because the nerds capable of cracking the software probably don’t care when none of them are spending $90,000 on an SUV, but I would love to see it. Personally if I had $100k to spend on one, I’d consider putting a $1,000 bounty out on jailbreaking them. That might not go far, but if others also did it then maybe.
They did. And I have friends who bought them when there were rumours about their plan to support it, and now are extremely butthurt that it won’t be supported.
Just goes to show, always follow the rule - never buy products based upon the promise of future functionality.
They never promised car play. Don’t buy Tesla or rivian if you want to just load up your generic Apple interface. The value of the car doesn’t make sense at that point.
I agree they Rivian did not promise it, but there were rumours that people took to heart.
Were they silly buying on the potential for future features? I think so.
Also I think you should be able to put Android Auto or CarPlay into a window on your infotainment in a Rivian or a Tesla. The fact that you can’t means I just won’t consider those cars.
Good for you. There is no reason to buy those cars if you are going to load CarPlay. There are cheaper options that will just be screen mirrors for your iPhone.
I honestly don't care about how fast expensive cars are anymore. We are well beyond what is usable and it's not like these are track toys.
These days, if you want to impress me, you build something that takes an idea typically found in $100k+ vehicles and manages to deliver a taste of that experience in something under $40k.
That's what EV's might be able to do better than anyone else in a few years, Bugatti acceleration and Rolls Royce engine refinement for a fracture of the price. Once the prices of batteries have dropped enough.
As someone who loves fast cars and always has one, these electric vehicles scare me for the future. We are going to be having normal people driving vehicles that weigh over 6k lbs and are as fast as supercars. Auto accident deaths will increase in the future because the average person can not handle vehicles like that, nor should they. There are 0 reasons why an electric SUV that large needs to be that fast.
Big vouch for the brand. I bought a lightly used launch edition R1T for 64k and it’s been awesome. Theres nothing else in the price range I can think of that I’d rather have as a daily.
Seems like more of a racing SUV than off-roady "adventure" vehicle. Like I appreciate it for what is is, but I'd rather have dual motors, or even a single motor with real lockers for crawling and adventure type stuff. Hopefully the R2 is closer to what I want.
I want to love Rivian. I do. But they really need to reconsider their headlight design.
I know that it is distinctive and memorable, but it is also weird looking and a shape that hasn’t been used in the auto industry successfully in the past.
I even like their logo and the styling for the rest of it. I’m more of a sedan, sports car guy, but for an SUV, everything for the “face” works.
Considering the R1 series and upcoming R2S have no real competitors in the space of off-road capable, body-on-frame electric SUVs, I don't think anyone is not buying them for the headlight design.
I quite like the Rivian industrial design. It’s friendly without being silly, memorable without being ostentatious. They’re nice looking in person too.
The brief of the whole EV idea was efficient, less polluting, less maintainance, quieter, less drag, etc.
And of course they goofed off, stared mindlessly into their dumb phone and did no such thing.
We built a very heavy, very powerful.... eaaaahh thing of a car. Oh sorry: Super-SUV, how could I forget.
>VW group invested $5B in Rivian
[To be clear:](https://www.volkswagen-group.com/en/ad-hoc/volkswagen-ag-resolves-on-investment-by-volkswagen-of-initially-1-billion-usd-in-rivian-automotive-inc-and-intends-to-establish-a-joint-venture-18468) Volkswagen invested $1B in Rivian, and will only invest another $2B in two separate $1B tranches if milestones are met in 2025 and 2026. Another $1B is going to a joint-venture between the two companies, and another $1B will be ***loaned*** to the joint venture after that if (again) certain milestones are met.
In aggregate, a total of $5B capital is in play, but Volkswagen has not invested $5B in Rivian and does not plan to do so at this time. Rivian is only getting about $1B right now, with another $1B going to the JV.
This may seem like nitpicking, but it's important to understand Rivian doesn't just suddenly have $5B to play with. They have $1B, a new $1B 50/50 joint venture with VW, and some milestones to hit before VW gives them anything more.
I'm thinking the $5B was at least partially to use Rivian's tech, if not whole platforms, for the new Scout SUV which would be aimed as an EV off-roader underneath the pricing of the R2. But that alone should've been at most a couple hundred million...
VW gets a lot from this venture. Not just technology sharing, but the companies can also being working together and become intertwined. I'm sure VW engineers can learn a lot from Rivian.
The biggest thing is, if Rivian stock goes stupid, VW can dump most of their holdings for a massive profit, while maintaining that bond. Which ends up being the best of both worlds for VW.
Not that I can afford one but rivian is doing all the right things in the EV market imo. I'm not stoked on the front end styling but if I was in the market for a large EV they're numeral uno on the list
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