Friend With 900tt and Accident On His Record

After reading the full NTSB report, I think this actually plays pretty badly. The decision was made on the ground in Nassau to contact maintenance. When maintenance wasn’t reached via text, the captain decided they wouldn’t worry about it. This is the first link in the accident chain, where the crew made safety determination (to contact maintenance) and then veered from that determination when it was no longer convenient. The next link in the chain, and actually what I think looks the worst, is the decision during the accident flight to continue 160 miles over the water to Florida instead of returning to Nassau. So your friend had at least two critical opportunities to question the captain’s horrendous decision making and did not do so. It’s so easy to cast blame after the fact, even when we all know then pressures low-time pilots are under to complete these flights. And that’s incredible unfair. But an airline interviewing your friend is going to Monday-morning-quarterback this accident just as harshly and needs to be ready for that. Please don’t take solace in the commenters saying the report is not that bad—it’s going to make things difficult.

You also mentioned that your friend had to “fight” to get their medical back. Are they confident they’ll be able to keep it?

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TRex_N_Truex@reddit

I'm going to speak from experience here as I once worked for a shitbird pt.135 operation before. Reading that accident report, if its factual, its giving me flashbacks from my previous life. Low time pilots not understanding what they're getting into and being groomed into thinking completing the mission is more important than safety. I can't tell you how many times a captain with thousands and thousands of hours gave me the "trust me bro" speech and we went and did something that really should have been handled differently.

Your friend, that's a tough space to be in, but yeah they're part of the crew and CRM/TEM is supposed to stop these things from happening. Your friend is going to have to own this one in any interview and convince whoever is letting them fly a plane, they're not going to watch it get wrecked again. Pilots aren't mechanics unless they're certified to do maintenance on the planes the company has. Pulling breakers, the reset not working, and then continuing on anyways to do an entirely new flight because WELP THE PHONE AINT WORKIN is really really poor decision making by the entire crew. Anything else that happened after that is just additional details.

The quote "a superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations which require the use of his superior skill” comes to mind here.

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JasperinWaynesville@reddit

With respect to the CRM/TEM statement, I agree. Cockpit Resource Management/Aeronautical Decision Making resources and training requirements have been available to the aviation community for many years by the FAA.

Reference:
https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/04_phak_ch2.pdf
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N_8900.209.pdf
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_120-51E.pdf
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-G/part-135/subpart-H/section-135.330

It's incumbent that operators and crewmembers be trained on and follow the tenets of ADM/CRM/TEM programs.

It appears that this was not the case in the CV-131B (N145GT) accident.

I read the NTSB report and was left with the feeling that this was a desk audit report and that the NTSB investigator wrote it without all the facts (e.g. recovery and inspection of the two engines and associated propeller control assemblies.) Nor any discussion of the PIC's compliance and enforcement history (if any.) Something, IMHO, is missing here. Bottom line is, in my opinion, in conjunction with the maintenance facility, should have tried to resolve the engine/propeller issues before departing from Nassau. Especially in view of the power/prop issues on the inbound (to nassau) leg.

Just my two cents worth.

Capt. JBuck
ATP DC-9, B-757/767/777
Mechanic, A&P
CFI/GI
Acft Dispatcher
FE, TP/TJ
Air Traffic Controller
FAA Aviation Safety Insp (Ops & Aws.) (Ret.
Airline Pilot (ret.)
Aviation Safety Consultant (Active)

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Suicuneator@reddit

Man that is a humbling list of certifications. Love to see people that live and breathe airplanes like you do.

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JasperinWaynesville@reddit

It's what I do. Aviation. What can I say.

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LifeDog6648@reddit

I wonder if vibrations from the left engine were confusing them into believing the right engine was failing. And so the capt shut down the wrong engine. The odds that two engines fail at the same time with fresh fuel is nil.

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NuttPunch@reddit

How bad was the NTSB blame? That accident and the specifics of it are going to determine his path.

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Western-Sky88@reddit (OP)

IMO not too severe. Here's an excerpt from the report.

Probable Cause: "The captain's decision to continue with the flight with a malfunctioning left engine propeller control and the subsequent loss of engine power on both engines for undetermined reasons, which resulted in ditching into the ocean. Contributing to the accident was the first officer's failure to challenge the captain's decision to continue with the flight."

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NuttPunch@reddit

Yaa that’s far from “not too severe” considering people died and they totaled the aircraft. The industry is full of low experience captains right now and companies I imagine are hesitant to hire a guy that didn’t challenge a captain on safety of flight.

I suggest your friend hire a reputable prep service to go over this and get feedback from recruiters or chiefs at job fairs.

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Western-Sky88@reddit (OP)

Well, it's not nearly as severe as they initially wanted it to be. They said some fairly heinous stuff during the investigation.

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cosmonaut2@reddit

just food for thought, i wouldn't put too much cadence in a guy calling himself "nuttpunch" giving you feed back on airline hiring. Tell him not to sweat it. Some recruiters might call this valuable experience and some might frown on it. There are a ton of idiots in aviation and some of them have the ability to hire/fire you. The worst thing he can do is not try.

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SnazzyStooge@reddit

You can never really tell until you get the post-interview reply. Some places would love to hear this story and would agree the "lesson was learned" — other places would see it as a risk. All you can do is be honest and forthright.

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Western-Sky88@reddit (OP)

LOL I read his nickname and immediately discounted it 🤣

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cosmonaut2@reddit

kid has a zimbabwe flair. if anyone is listening to his opinions and takes them close to heart its their own fault.

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NuttPunch@reddit

Hey man he’s a stranger to me and a stranger to recruiters. We’ll go by what the NTSB report says which correctly or incorrectly puts him at partial fault. Not a good look. As I said, he needs very specific feedback from chiefs and recruiters. He will always have to differentiate himself from this accident

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PiperFM@reddit

The shitty thing is the prop govs should have nothing to do with a dual engine failure. Dude got railroaded by the Feds. Old planes, especially shitty old Convairs, do/did shit like that all the time. Couldn’t pay me enough to fly a CV-280.

Dude needs to get whatever work he can get, prove he’s a safe competent stick, and go from there.

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No_Diver_2133@reddit

Exactly. The issue is the dual engine failure of undetermined circumstances, yet they’re honing in on the only information they know and using that to put blame on both pilots. Useless fucking report.

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SWMovr60Repub@reddit

You’re a pilot and you incorrectly use honing instead of homing?

WTF?

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No_Diver_2133@reddit

Yeah man you’re right. My misuse of one word completely discredits my professional flying career.

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SWMovr60Repub@reddit

On purpose or spellcheck?

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No_Diver_2133@reddit

I wrote it on my phone at the gym. Does it matter?

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SWMovr60Repub@reddit

Yes.

30 years ago a friend who was a English Lit major misused this word and I called her out on it politely.

It's been my Holy Grail ever since and has amazed how many get it wrong.

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No_Diver_2133@reddit

Its one of those words I guess. Having lazy thumbs and n/m close together doesn’t help.

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SWMovr60Repub@reddit

BTW, why are you texting to Reddit from the Gym? Just enjoy the moment and forget about the cloud of wankers just for a little while.

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No_Diver_2133@reddit

I like to read in between sets. Trying to not catch a SA case from accidentally looking in the direction of a gym girl lmao.

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Headoutdaplane@reddit

Dude! You burned him so bad!!!! He is gonna go cry to his mama like a big baby!!!!

/S that was actually just choady

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Oosbie@reddit

NTSB couldn't write a good report if a thousand lives depended on it, which we know because thousands of lives depend on it and they can't write a good report.

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sprulz@reddit

This is why I believe the whole “80% of plane crashes are due to pilot error!” stat that single-pilot advocates like to pedal is inherently flawed. NTSB reports are full of this kind of language that say “the pilots should have done this” which insinuates pilot error when there may have been all sorts of fires the pilots were putting out (no pun intended) that led them to make the decisions they made.

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No_Diver_2133@reddit

I loved this one accident report I read that put the pilot at blame because the student snapped the key off in the mag OFF position. Totaled the aircraft. NTSB finding? The pilot not performing a mag check over a suitable landing area..

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49Flyer@reddit

Pretty typical NTSB report from what I've seen.

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Western-Sky88@reddit (OP)

Information that they obtained from him while he was on pain medication in the hospital.

They interviewed him in his hospital room fresh out of surgery.

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No_Diver_2133@reddit

You never see them rush to prescribe blame on any manufacturer after hearsay. Complete joke.

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Western-Sky88@reddit (OP)

Had this been a criminal court case, all of my friend's testimony would have been thrown out as illegally obtained.

But that is not the case for the NTSB and FAA.

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No_Diver_2133@reddit

The FAA and NTSB have absolute power, we need actual RIGHTS as pilots. Zero recourse or burden of proof on their end.

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OldheadBoomer@reddit

Couldn’t pay me enough to fly a CV-280.

Couldn't pay me enough to get in the damn thing... 202 incidents, 861 fatalities, wow.

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185EDRIVER@reddit

Hire people who learned a lesson 1 time they will never make again .

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NuttPunch@reddit

Or hire people without records they’ll have to explain to the media should something happen later.

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EAP007@reddit

Generally however, once you’ve been through it, your tolerance is changed. Maybe hiring someone who knows the consequences of not challenging isn’t all that bad.

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Western-Sky88@reddit (OP)

I agree with this assessment. When you take someone with a perfect record who has never been through anything, you don't really know what mistake they're going to make.

When you get somebody who's really been through it and made some mistakes, they've learned from them. As long as it's not a pattern.

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NuttPunch@reddit

And the Evening news will dig up your friends accident if anything does happen. “Why did X legacy hire X Captain who has had a fatal accident before?” They can hire the guy whose days are numbered but a clean record and by appearances tell the media they hire pilots with flawless records.

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bhalter80@reddit

Otoh this is a guy who will 100% challenge the Capt on an inop cabin light being placarded or resign because everything is super personal based on experience

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bhalter80@reddit

Otoh this is a guy who will 100% challenge the Capt on an inop cabin light being placarded or resign because everything is super personal based on experience

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LurkerOnTheInternet@reddit

Only one person died - the captain.

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GrouchyManimal@reddit

Agreed. I’m a private pilot and this sounds pretty extreme.

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NuttPunch@reddit

Government makes everything extreme. Actual circumstances I doubt the guy was trying to mess up. But to an outsider perspective it can seem extreme.

Also private pilot means nothing.

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IJNShiroyuki@reddit

It probably depends on the company? If it’s one of the abusive company with shitty captains, like North Star Air here in Canada, it’s probably going to slip? That company crashed 3 Basler DC3 with one captain on two crashes. One of them is VFR IMC while the plane is fully capable of IFR, just too lazy to fly the full approach.

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docNNST@reddit

VFR into IMC?

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IJNShiroyuki@reddit

Correct, look up the basler crash in Sochigo lake, Ontario.

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TemporaryMind6968@reddit

Love roland. Great guy. He'll be back in the air soon. Airlines would love to have him. His stripes have made him extremely valuable in the flight deck. -former vu alum

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Western-Sky88@reddit (OP)

Also VU Alum

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N420BZ@reddit

135s in Alaska usually see surviving a crash (and learning something from it) as a badge of honor and not a fault.

I know Bethel is a long way from home, but the pay is decent and the operators up there want pilots who know their limits.

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554TangoAlpha@reddit

problem is insurance runs the businesses up there now, can't hire a guy unless insurances lets you.

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Headoutdaplane@reddit

Send them up to Alaska. Accidents? no problems, DUI? No problem. Facial hair? No problem.

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Key_Slide_7302@reddit

Is this the accident you’re referring to?

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IJNShiroyuki@reddit

R2800, that’s some living fossil right there… quite weird both engine back fired and quit. Did they find any issue with the fuel?

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Headoutdaplane@reddit

Could be they identified the wrong engine and shut down the working one, it has happened before. Unless something was wrong with the fuel (and the NTSB would have checked the fueling station) a two engine out scenario is very unlikely, not impossible, but unlikely.

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Western-Sky88@reddit (OP)

They went into the water. One of the wings washed up on a beach a few days later, but the engine was ripped off so they never really got to do good analysis of the wreckage. The rest of it sank in minutes.

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IJNShiroyuki@reddit

Yeah that sounds like bs from TSB for me. They should focus on why both engine quit, not why one prop isn’t governing. They are still going to crash if both their prop governer is working lmao.

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n365pa@reddit

It's a heck of a motor. Something odd happened there.

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Icommentwhenhigh@reddit

Not the best written accident report I’ve ever read

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Mr-Plop@reddit

To be fair to OP's friend, Conquest Air's fleet has always been a death trap. Florida Air Cargo is not far off behind.

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Key_Slide_7302@reddit

No judgement from me towards OP’s friend. I wasn’t there and am not going to start making suggestions of what they should have done.

I think a 23,000hr CA should have made a different decision, but again, I wasn’t there. And I don’t have 23,000 hours either.

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NuttPunch@reddit

23,000hr captains that are good don’t fly as normal line pilots at places like that

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Western-Sky88@reddit (OP)

Yes

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UnitLost6398@reddit

Just looked up and found the same thing myself.

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grumpycfi@reddit

I don't wanna harp on your friend's choice because obviously he has lived through it.

I do want to take this opportunity to say to anyone still coming up that this is why you say no. Even when it's hard. Even when it may cost you your job. This is why it is so important. And I think we've all not said no when you should have. But don't. We play for keeps in this business.

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InternationalSet6134@reddit

More people would say no if saying no didn’t feel like throwing your job away

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grumpycfi@reddit

Maybe. Probably? Don't get involved with shitty pilot mills and I bet that problem is virtually non-existent for most people. In either case, if you say yes and they fail. Or fail twice. Or worse they pass and die, then you have a way bigger problem.

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B767_Captain@reddit

N number? Date of accident? NTSB accident report number? I'd like to read the report myself. Thank you. Best

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Western-Sky88@reddit (OP)

Sure thing. Here's the ASN link to the report.

https://asn.flightsafety.org/asndb/319496

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JasperinWaynesville@reddit

Thank you.

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SubarcticFarmer@reddit

At 900TT he's limited from some jobs just by regulatory hurdles. In addition to 135 freight I'd recommend applying to places like the Bush outfits in AK. Places like Grant Aviation or Yute.

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Nearly_Pointless@reddit

Keep in mind that there are lots of pilots with equal or greater experience who have zero incidents on their record.

He’s competing against better pilots with better history. It’s very important to understand that there are lots of pilots who manage to go their entire careers without any sort of issues. In fact, I’d say it’s the majority of pilots.

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Kind_Consideration97@reddit

Certainly lived up to your handle there!

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jellenberg@reddit

This will probably get down voted but I'd probably hire this guy if I was in a position to do so. Reason being that I'm sure he has learned a very valuable lesson that will effect everything he does in the future. Sure there's plenty of pilots who got lucky enough to never be in an incident but that doesn't guarantee they won't ever fall into the same trap this guy has already learned a life lesson from.

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No_Diver_2133@reddit

Lots of pilots go their entire career being lucky enough to not go through something like this. This is doubly true for those who went CFI to airliner, their risk window was just low.

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Western-Sky88@reddit (OP)

I'd hesitate to call those guys "better" Pilots.

Just luckier.

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Clear4TakeoffR19er@reddit

Reading through the NTSB report it certainly Seems like quite a traumatizing event And I hope he has recovered from it in all aspects. I would echo the sentiment that it certainly feels he was a bit callously thrown under the bus by the wording of the report given circumstances surrounding the crash

You seem like a tremendous and invaluable friend, he’s very blessed to have you in his corner through all of that.

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No_Diver_2133@reddit

Typical feds.

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0621Hertz@reddit

Spitfire Elite has a great section about overcoming failures, I’m very sorry about what happened to your friend. That is a very traumatic event based on the NTSB report. The wording of the NTSB report is unfortunate but I personally think it’s salvageable. I would fly with him any day if he wasn’t bitter about it, knew what he learned from it, and actively teaches whatever lessons he learned to other pilots. So much so that he is an asset to a company, not a liability.

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Western-Sky88@reddit (OP)

He's a great, humble, goofy guy and one hell of a pilot. Any outfit would be lucky to have him.

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fondlethethrottle@reddit

This is a story he is going to need to explain on any flying job interview he walks into. One question I have is if there was certificate action or a PRIA event logged. Some folks saying that the report is way past “not that bad” I don’t believe understand what it is to be a lower time pilot with a high time captain running the show… especially in a cargo operation where the pressure is really high to fly the leg. I think there is salvation from this ahead of him but he’s going to need to build more time and prepare a pretty convincing monologue describing what happened, why it happened, and what he took away from an incredibly awful event.

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Western-Sky88@reddit (OP)

It was by horribly strange coincidence that I was in a very similar situation in a different airplane a thousand miles from him earlier that day.

Pressured to fly, known engine malfunction, high time captain, and I was a low time FO. The only difference was that we managed to make it to an airport. Barely.

Especially if those kind of jobs, there's a lot of, "Fly it or get fired." Which is a horrible position to be put in as a young kid.

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InGeorgeWeTrust_@reddit

Unfortunately 900tt doesn’t open any doors these days.

Especially with an accident and a lot of time not flying.

Might be time to get that ol CFI or find a survey gig

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Western-Sky88@reddit (OP)

Actually, the survey is a great idea, and I know a guy who owns an outfit. I'll give him a call!

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SpaceMarine33@reddit

So, first step is to admit you’re talking about your self.

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rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

A dear friend of mine is trying to get back in the air. A bit over 5 years ago, he was the sole survivor of a fatal ditching at a Part 135 outfit. The NTSB partially blamed him for the accident basically saying that he should have put his foot down to the captain and refused to fly.

He has 900tt and a type rating in an aircraft greater than 50,000lbs gross weight. After a long fight, he got his medical back over a year ago. He's maintained currency since then by buying an AA-1 Tiger. He doesn't have his CFI.

Any guidance on where to go for him? My initial thought was to hit up all the 135 freight outfits. Thanks yall!

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