It's funny that most of these products were acquired by Oracle when they bought Sun Microsystems. And most of them have licensing issues.
MySQL has a free, open-source version and a commercial, closed-source version. Some features are only available in the commercial version. Lots of people and companies have switched to MariaDB because they don't like what Oracle is doing with MySQL.
OpenJDK is not developed by Oracle. Oracle developed the Oracle JDK, which is a proprietary fork of OpenJDK with a restrictive license.
VirtualBox is free and open-source, but for many features you need an extension pack, which is closed-source, and free only for personal use.
Oracle Linux I have never heard of, but apparently it is a fork of Red Hat Enterprise Linux.
Oracle? Free? You clearly are not familiar with Oracle.
Java is one of the most widely used languages and Oracle licenses OpenJDK, which is their Java SE implementation, with GPLv2 with classpath exception. So at least when it comes to java they do know what free means.
They didn’t force any legacy apps to start paying. All they did was decide that their Oracle JDK was only for their customers that were paying for support. Otherwise you should switch to a OpenJDK build (which they also provided and so do other vendors).
This is how it remains today except that starting with Java 17 Oracle JDK is free to use in production again. Although there is no real reason to do so unless you pay a Oracle for support.
but all kinds of people were worried at my job at the time.
Oracle didn't do a good job communicating the implications of the change so there was a momentary worry. Although the confusion was quickly cleared up.
This is what it boils down to:
If you pay Oracle for java support use Oracle JDK
If you don't pay Oracle for java support use a build of OpenJDK. Oracle themselves offer a GPL'd build of OpenJDK as well as several other vendors like Microsoft, Amazon, Azul, Temurin, Red Hat, Bellsoft, etc. Selling support is how java vendors who want to monetize Java do it. Vendors that will sell you java support include: Oracle, Azul, Red Hat, and Bellsoft. Microsoft and Amazon will support their builds of OpenJDK if your app is deployed to their respective cloud platforms.
Starting with Java 17 Oracle JDK is free to use again even in production. Although there really is no need to use it if you aren't paying Oracle for support.
OpenJDK has been the official reference implementation for over a decade. Unless you are neck deep in Oracle products there is probably no good reason to use the Oracle runtime at all.
Next up: Running Linux through WSL requires at least one Windows license, has Stallman sold out? /s
They've somehow convinced my company to pay for licenses to use java.
if your company is using one of those older java versions (like java 1.5), and want to have security patches and long term support contract for it, then yes, company needs to pay money for that.
Do not fall into the trap of anthropomorphising Larry Ellison [CEO of Oracle]. You need to think of Larry Ellison the way you think of a lawnmower. You don't anthropomorphize your lawnmower, the lawnmower just mows the lawn, you stick your hand in there and it'll chop it off, the end. You don't think 'oh, the lawnmower hates me' -- lawnmower doesn't give a shit about you, lawnmower can't hate you. Don't anthropomorphize the lawnmower.
I think it's because his daughter's video game publishing company recently made the news when all of the employees simultaneously resigned, and that was how a lot of people learned that she was Larry Ellison's daughter.
Eh, could be bots, could just be people finding out about it through his press coverage and then commenting on the next opportunity. Which, to be fair, is just reddit.
I regularly post the link to that video because a) It's hilarious, and b) I feel it's my public duty to inform others not to stick their hand into the lawnmower.
Its such a generic term now and they have made zero effort to use or retain it. Surely they know they can't enforce it in any meaningful way. They no doubt use it to pad out "maximum damages" threats when trying to blackmail companies into contracts.
I bet the last thing they want is a judge actually hearing the argument in court.
"And how many products does Oracle offer in which JavaScript is a primary component or advertised feature?"
"Is Oracle a member of any standards committees that steer the development of the language ubiquitously referred to as JavaScript?"
"If we ask 100 professional JavaScript developers, how many would know you owned this trademark? Do you offer any Oracle specific training and educational material for JavaScript?"
"So you own the trademark for the common usage name of an entire software ecosystem in which you have no significant products or market share?"
I'm gonna need one solid example of Oracle, not Sun, successfully defending it IN COURT. They obviously have saber rattled once or twice, but it seems that the JavaScript trademark itself has never made it to court. The most publicized incident i can find is a takedown request to Apple from a single chinese developer in no position to fight. Funny how that works...
Anyone big enough in a position to fight it is also big enough not to bother fighting it because it'll be cheaper
The name "Java" is very valuable to Oracle. Since "JavaScript" contains the word "java" I suspect Oracle will defend the JavaScript trademark. Especially since both Java and JavaScript are programming languages and it could cause confusion.
Netscape made the mistake years ago by naming the language JavaScript which they did because they were trying to take advantage of Java's popularity. They should have started out with a different name.
Mozilla/Netscape actually had an agreement with Sun to use the name. They weren't simply riding coattails. Sun maintained the trademark, they got to use it for free because it was useful branding for both at the time.
Owning the Java trademark doesn't give them the rights to "Java" as a prefix in perpetuity. That's why Javascript is its own trademark. As its own trademark that's what they have to defend, not Java in totality.
They would try to defend it of course, but they have to know its a futile proposition.
If McDonald's owned the trademark for "Taco", never sold anything called a taco, and then tried to sue Taco Bell for trademark infringement, how do you think that would work out for them?
I think it should be even more agnostic though. WebAssembly.
Well ... we kind of slowly reach where we should have been 25 years ago. Including doing away with trademark restrictions. The whole law system has to be modified - private control needs to have a limit over public interest.
First called LiveScript. Later renamed JavaScript to cash in on the popularity of Java. Then into ECMAscript to cash in on the popularity of skin diseases.
It’s too bad that the comments are gone though, someone replied to this:
1801 - Joseph Marie Jacquard uses punch cards to instruct a loom to weave "hello, world" into a tapestry. Redditers of the time are not impressed due to the lack of tail call recursion, concurrency, or proper capitalization.
I think I'll just end up writing more python code, if only to test how far one can progress with webassembly - and not have to rely on JavaScript (is this a horrible joke of a programming language ... python is pure epicness compared to JavaScript)
I have no idea why you think the Rust community would melt down over that. I imagine the Rust Foundation's lawyers would be annoyed, but that's probably about it.
It does, but that doesn't exist anymore. Now it's just called Ecma-International since it's global and not only for computer manufacturing. They define all sorts of things including C#.
Because it's a standard. They can't just as easily change it like the organization did. I mean, it will be just going through procedure(s) to accomplish nothing of big significance.
there's enough "I want my objects to surprise me at runtime" degenerates out there that won't touch typescript that keep it from becoming the status quo
I remember when not that long ago it was impossible to look up help for .net, C# wasn't much better either. They should just rename both to Csharp and dotnet. And what the hell does Series X mean anyway
Microsoft is still stuck in the 90s when adding the letter X to things was totally eXtreme dude. ActiveX, DirectX, DirectX Box / Xbox, Xbox Series X, XNA, VBX, CXX…
DNS, that's where that "punctuation in the name" comes from. Anyways...
They didn't get to that stupid name because of WWW. They got to it because "Developers, developers, developers...". Remember that one? If not, you can easily find a video.
What did M$ do back then? They lost the people who were writing the software, so they thought "I have a genius idea, let's say we build a network" or some shit like that. They even named people partners, gave certificates, titles, levels... The works. Just to get people back to write software for their eco system, using their tools.
No, what you are writing is mostly wrong. You seem to be trying to make an educated guess, but there’s no need for that: the actual reason is known. The name “.NET” was explicitly chosen as a reference to .com, to jump on the dot-com hype wagon.
Yes, it references networks and networking. But it definitely refers to them in a computer network context, and makes explicit reference to the internet.
I’m too lazy to find a reference, but this was never a secret, several people who were part of the early .NET team have written about it, and it should be easy to find online.
I think it's more so that they're designed for the web, but all the strengths to being good for web development also apply to desktop and mobile as well.
A full language specification, with several implementations and cross platform support is probably ideal for desktop development.
I love the use of the phrase "why not just" as a prelude to suggesting some absolutely gargantuan effort requiring the cooperation of huge quantities of people and organisations.
Why not just invent an entirely new programming language and convince every programmer in the world to adopt it? Then we won’t have to deal with JavaScript anymore either!
I don't really have that easy access to a french-speaker, so you'd have to enlighten me. Unless your point is about pronouncing j in the /r/JuropijanSpeling way, in which case I likely do the same for javascript (or as the anglos would hear it, yavaskript). But that's more a language leakage, like hypercorrecting victory to wiktory, while C is more of a genderfluid letter that could be either k or s depending on its mood today.
(Personally I'd do fine if askii didn't have q or c, but instead let them be unikode karakters. Just flatten them to o and k; it'd be about as korrekt as when other letters get flattened to askii.)
Okay so I do agree with the letter and the motivation, but what problems does Oracle holding the trademark actually cause? Or maybe rather, what is the worst case scenario here?
Could Oracle one day wake up on their evil side, realize they hold the rights to JavaScript (the name), and... what exactly?
That presupposes that the trademark is legitimate.
The amount of widespread unauthorized use of the name does not indicate that they are properly defending it in a legitimate manner. They allow the name to be used by millions of people all the time without a license.
Programmers working with JavaScript have formed innumerable community organizations. These organizations, like the standards bodies, have been forced to painstakingly avoid naming the programming language they are built around—for example, JSConf. Sadly, without risking a legal trademark challenge against Oracle, there can be no “JavaScript Conference” nor a “JavaScript Specification.” The world’s most popular programming language cannot even have a conference in its name.
Trademarks are lost if you do not enforce them. I assume by now the trademark is worthless in court and its main use is simply the threat of a long legal process.
Honestly, it’s wild to think about how much JavaScript has evolved from its early days. The whole 'write once, run anywhere' mantra seems more true now than ever, especially with frameworks like Node.js and modern front-end tools. But yeah, Oracle’s tight grip on technologies has been frustrating in the past... Looking at you, Java. 😅 Hopefully, they don’t try the same thing with JavaScript!
The take on GraalVM in the post is weird. At any rate, trademarks slow down mankind so I am all in favour of breaking up the evil monopoly. It would have been better to design an agnostic language from the get go, though. A bit like webassembly, but trade-mark free. Some video codecs went that way; see the old divx versus xvid and many other examples.
But ... it is Oracle, and trademarks protect assets, which makes money and profit, which shareholders love, so they'll not do anything - unless pressured seriously.
Because Netscape put "Java" in the name of their new language which Sun had a trademark on in relation to programming languages. So there was some arrangement where Sun trademarked JavaScript and licensed it to Netscape. Oracle become owner of the trademark when they acquired Sun.
Cripes.. just file the petition already. It's not like giving them notice of your intentions will help the situation at all. The worst possible thing they could do would be to make a half-assed effort now that would in some way qualify them to keep the trademark.
Anyone can file a petition with the Trademark Trial and Appeal Board (TTAB) that the trademark has been abandoned. They just need standing, where the person filing is either harmed or plans to use the mark.
Nobody is really harmed by their continued Trademark AND nobody really has or can have a plan to USE the Trademark, because it's too easy to argue that it's become 'generic'.
So the strategic part is they do nothing and keep the name Oracle associated with JavaScript and nothing happens.
My understanding is the trademark is still being licensed to Mozilla, and their implementation of ECMAScript is officially Javascript™. Until recently it was even a different language from ECMAScript, having some non-standard features like array comprehensions and Python style generators (long before function* was a thing). But these days Mozilla keeps their implementation more in line with ECMAScript, finally removing those non-standard features a few years ago and no longer releasing numbered versions of Javascript (the last one was 1.8 back in 2008? I believe), so the distinction between the two doesn't really mean anything anymore.
Given the amount of managers and projects managers I’ve interacted with who don’t understand the difference between JavaScript and Java, I’d rather we change the name.
As someone who found his way to Node via a circuitous path from Java, I know that look.
Primeagen did a reaction of a 'readability' video by a reasonably well known Java Dev and it was so shocking to me what counts as 'readable'. It's so insane over there they see code with terrible locality of reference as a breath of fresh air.
The authors of the letter wrote that they will challenge the trademark if Oracle doesn't respond. Read the end of the letter. Also, you can add your signature (GitHub name) if you want.
WiseDark7089@reddit
Oracle? Free? You clearly are not familiar with Oracle.
Guyva_the-great@reddit
Wait... you have to subscribe to use JS too??or someone explain to me what's happening?
DankerOfMemes@reddit
Oracle owns the name "Javascript" even tho they don't use it and most people refer to "JavaScript" as the programming language.
natomist@reddit
There is a lot great free products from Oracle. MySQL, OpenJDK, VirtualBox, Oracle Linux.
A1oso@reddit
It's funny that most of these products were acquired by Oracle when they bought Sun Microsystems. And most of them have licensing issues.
MySQL has a free, open-source version and a commercial, closed-source version. Some features are only available in the commercial version. Lots of people and companies have switched to MariaDB because they don't like what Oracle is doing with MySQL.
OpenJDK is not developed by Oracle. Oracle developed the Oracle JDK, which is a proprietary fork of OpenJDK with a restrictive license.
VirtualBox is free and open-source, but for many features you need an extension pack, which is closed-source, and free only for personal use.
Oracle Linux I have never heard of, but apparently it is a fork of Red Hat Enterprise Linux.
wildjokers@reddit
Java is one of the most widely used languages and Oracle licenses OpenJDK, which is their Java SE implementation, with GPLv2 with classpath exception. So at least when it comes to java they do know what free means.
PM_ME_SOME_ANY_THING@reddit
Dude back in 2019 they changed it all around, caused all kinds of confusion and forced a bunch of legacy applications to start paying.
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/58250782/which-free-version-of-java-can-i-use-for-production-environments-and-or-commerci#58260110
wildjokers@reddit
They didn’t force any legacy apps to start paying. All they did was decide that their Oracle JDK was only for their customers that were paying for support. Otherwise you should switch to a OpenJDK build (which they also provided and so do other vendors).
This is how it remains today except that starting with Java 17 Oracle JDK is free to use in production again. Although there is no real reason to do so unless you pay a Oracle for support.
PM_ME_SOME_ANY_THING@reddit
Yeah but all the legacy apps using Oracle JDK had to pay until they updated to Open JDK, or you had to shut them down.
I’m not a Java developer, so I don’t know all the details, but all kinds of people were worried at my job at the time.
wildjokers@reddit
Oracle didn't do a good job communicating the implications of the change so there was a momentary worry. Although the confusion was quickly cleared up.
This is what it boils down to:
Starting with Java 17 Oracle JDK is free to use again even in production. Although there really is no need to use it if you aren't paying Oracle for support.
thecreaturethatate@reddit
Oracle’s record for good-faith engagement with open-source licensing and competent stewardship of open-source software begins and ends with Java.
Everything else they’ve touched was a shitshow.
tolos@reddit
They've somehow convinced my company to pay for licenses to use java. Even their open source stuff is fucked.
josefx@reddit
OpenJDK has been the official reference implementation for over a decade. Unless you are neck deep in Oracle products there is probably no good reason to use the Oracle runtime at all.
Next up: Running Linux through WSL requires at least one Windows license, has Stallman sold out? /s
kqadem@reddit
Whats the issue here? It's WSL that requires the Windows License.
josefx@reddit
And it is the Oracle Runtime that requires a license not Java. You don't need Windows to run Linux and you do not need an Oracle Runtime to run Java.
Chii@reddit
if your company is using one of those older java versions (like java 1.5), and want to have security patches and long term support contract for it, then yes, company needs to pay money for that.
greenthumble@reddit
JavaScript != Java
notoriouslyfastsloth@reddit
just call it something else give up on this
RockstarArtisan@reddit
Do not fall into the trap of anthropomorphising Larry Ellison [CEO of Oracle]. You need to think of Larry Ellison the way you think of a lawnmower. You don't anthropomorphize your lawnmower, the lawnmower just mows the lawn, you stick your hand in there and it'll chop it off, the end. You don't think 'oh, the lawnmower hates me' -- lawnmower doesn't give a shit about you, lawnmower can't hate you. Don't anthropomorphize the lawnmower.
azhder@reddit
I'm going to reuse this, it has that copy-pasta potential.
aykcak@reddit
Looks like it goes back at least as far as 12 years
https://youtu.be/-zRN7XLCRhc?t=38m0
First time I heard it though
7640LPS@reddit
Its certainly going around on reddit today.
https://reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1fi37j5/_/lnelcdr/?context=1
https://reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1fi3tgm/_/lnfthnq/?context=1
…
aykcak@reddit
Sigh. Bots gonna bot
Also, the guy seems to be pulling attention past few days for some reason which makes this resurface more
PaintItPurple@reddit
I think it's because his daughter's video game publishing company recently made the news when all of the employees simultaneously resigned, and that was how a lot of people learned that she was Larry Ellison's daughter.
cyber-punky@reddit
Which company was this ?
PaintItPurple@reddit
Annapurna Interactive.
RockstarArtisan@reddit
Don't anthropomorphise bots and llms.
I just post it when oracle doing shitty stuff is mentioned because I worked at a company that paid for their DB and we hated everything about it.
Oflameo@reddit
Did you switch to MariaDB or Postgres?
RockstarArtisan@reddit
I switched the jobs and used Postgres since, that company was hopelessly stuck with oracle.
7640LPS@reddit
Eh, could be bots, could just be people finding out about it through his press coverage and then commenting on the next opportunity. Which, to be fair, is just reddit.
BigHandLittleSlap@reddit
I regularly post the link to that video because a) It's hilarious, and b) I feel it's my public duty to inform others not to stick their hand into the lawnmower.
csmithku2013@reddit
I remember this from back when I was in school twenty years ago. Opinions on lawnmowers really haven’t changed.
azhder@reddit
That was so fast
cdrt@reddit
It’s already a pasta
zanotam@reddit
It is a copy paste, at least the beginning is one I remember for sure.
ulimn@reddit
Nah, the whole thing is
ApatheistHeretic@reddit
That's going into my list of Oracle/Larry E quotes, thank you.
This is also a time I typically will remind everyone that ORACLE stands for One Rich Asshole Called Larry Ellison.
slantview@reddit
MaliciousTent@reddit
Like Happy-Fun ball. Don't taunt Happy Fun ball.
Cheeze_It@reddit
I still laugh at the joke of what Oracle stands for.
betelgozer@reddit
So Larry, I hear you've smoked a lot of grass...
worthwhilewrongdoing@reddit
Absolutely brilliant. Saving this too.
xvermilion3@reddit
Does oracle also owns Java island?
cyber-punky@reddit
Dont let them know about the island, lawyers will be all over it.
granadesnhorseshoes@reddit
Its such a generic term now and they have made zero effort to use or retain it. Surely they know they can't enforce it in any meaningful way. They no doubt use it to pad out "maximum damages" threats when trying to blackmail companies into contracts.
I bet the last thing they want is a judge actually hearing the argument in court.
wildjokers@reddit
Oracle owns the trademark on JavaScript and they keep renewing it and they defend it. Good luck with your argument:
https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=75026640&caseSearchType=US_APPLICATION&caseType=DEFAULT&searchType=statusSearch
Blame Netscape for using the already trademarked "Java" in the name of their new language.
granadesnhorseshoes@reddit
"And how many products does Oracle offer in which JavaScript is a primary component or advertised feature?"
"Is Oracle a member of any standards committees that steer the development of the language ubiquitously referred to as JavaScript?"
"If we ask 100 professional JavaScript developers, how many would know you owned this trademark? Do you offer any Oracle specific training and educational material for JavaScript?"
"So you own the trademark for the common usage name of an entire software ecosystem in which you have no significant products or market share?"
I'm gonna need one solid example of Oracle, not Sun, successfully defending it IN COURT. They obviously have saber rattled once or twice, but it seems that the JavaScript trademark itself has never made it to court. The most publicized incident i can find is a takedown request to Apple from a single chinese developer in no position to fight. Funny how that works...
Anyone big enough in a position to fight it is also big enough not to bother fighting it because it'll be cheaper
wildjokers@reddit
The name "Java" is very valuable to Oracle. Since "JavaScript" contains the word "java" I suspect Oracle will defend the JavaScript trademark. Especially since both Java and JavaScript are programming languages and it could cause confusion.
Netscape made the mistake years ago by naming the language JavaScript which they did because they were trying to take advantage of Java's popularity. They should have started out with a different name.
granadesnhorseshoes@reddit
Mozilla/Netscape actually had an agreement with Sun to use the name. They weren't simply riding coattails. Sun maintained the trademark, they got to use it for free because it was useful branding for both at the time.
Owning the Java trademark doesn't give them the rights to "Java" as a prefix in perpetuity. That's why Javascript is its own trademark. As its own trademark that's what they have to defend, not Java in totality.
They would try to defend it of course, but they have to know its a futile proposition.
If McDonald's owned the trademark for "Taco", never sold anything called a taco, and then tried to sue Taco Bell for trademark infringement, how do you think that would work out for them?
literallyfabian@reddit
They actually tried to prove that they're using the trademark by using a screenshot of Node.js!
... Oracle doesn't own or develop Node.js
nonusedaccountname@reddit
The threat here is a legal battle with oracle. Even if they lose it nobody wants it and will rather just use ecmascript instead
Glader_BoomaNation@reddit
You're telling Oracle that it should sue everyone. That's what they hear when you say that.
Stunning_Ad_1685@reddit
Just choose a new name that is also based on an unrelated language. Maybe “RustScript”
ivosaurus@reddit
The whole point of the article is that we don't need to. Because Oracle has effectively abandoned the mark.
Their last sentence is
They should stop threatening and just go and do that, get it over and done with.
dagopa6696@reddit
TypeScript.
modernkennnern@reddit
Or, just use the actual name of the language; ECMAScript
The_real_bandito@reddit
This.
Or WebScript at the least.
shevy-java@reddit
That name is better.
I think it should be even more agnostic though. WebAssembly.
Well ... we kind of slowly reach where we should have been 25 years ago. Including doing away with trademark restrictions. The whole law system has to be modified - private control needs to have a limit over public interest.
DRNbw@reddit
Rockefeller? And Bell some decades after?
redalastor@reddit
First called LiveScript. Later renamed JavaScript to cash in on the popularity of Java. Then into ECMAscript to cash in on the popularity of skin diseases.
Source
smj-edison@reddit
Thank you for this, I haven't laughed so hard in ages!
redalastor@reddit
It’s too bad that the comments are gone though, someone replied to this:
saying that the loom was actually multi-threaded.
smj-edison@reddit
lolol, I'll have to check it out in the archives...
shevy-java@reddit
That name is boring though.
__konrad@reddit
Historically it was LiveScript
biledemon85@reddit
"Pythonscript" I think has the potential to maximise the the amount of irritated developers, undergrads and enthusiasts.
That being said, watching the Rust community meltdown would be hilarious.
tanorbuf@reddit
These days with webassembly,Script is totally realistic. PyScript already is a thing :)
shevy-java@reddit
I hope so. Now someone tell that Ruby please ...
I think I'll just end up writing more python code, if only to test how far one can progress with webassembly - and not have to rely on JavaScript (is this a horrible joke of a programming language ... python is pure epicness compared to JavaScript)
blaesten@reddit
Ruby has webassembly support! It works great :D
https://github.com/ruby/ruby.wasm
flatfisher@reddit
C++Script would do it even better
N1NJ4W4RR10R_@reddit
Just call it CScript so it can never be abbreviated.
Wang_Fister@reddit
PerlScript
pauseless@reddit
Taken
Wang_Fister@reddit
Bahahahahahaha
PaintItPurple@reddit
I have no idea why you think the Rust community would melt down over that. I imagine the Rust Foundation's lawyers would be annoyed, but that's probably about it.
Stunning_Ad_1685@reddit
HaskellScript
jonny_eh@reddit
Just "JS", or… TypeScript
Ali_Ryan@reddit
TypelessScript
mark_au@reddit
VBScript
IndecisionToCallYou@reddit
BashScript
Stunning_Ad_1685@reddit
BeanShellScript
theprettiestrobot@reddit
UnTypeScript
HolySpirit@reddit
I like it, but how about UndefinedScript?
xmsxms@reddit
Typescript Bytecode
Omni__Owl@reddit
It's name is EMCAScript but that just wasn't as catchy.
azhder@reddit
Nope, it was ECMAScript. Now it is EcmaScript. Revolutionary, I know
AnimalLibrynation@reddit
https://ecma-international.org/publications-and-standards/standards/ecma-262/
Ecma still uses ECMAScript
civildisobedient@reddit
TIL that ECMA stands for European Computer Manufacturer Association. And now you know, too!
AnimalLibrynation@reddit
It does, but that doesn't exist anymore. Now it's just called Ecma-International since it's global and not only for computer manufacturing. They define all sorts of things including C#.
azhder@reddit
Because it's a standard. They can't just as easily change it like the organization did. I mean, it will be just going through procedure(s) to accomplish nothing of big significance.
youstolemyname@reddit
Eck-ma?
PaintItPurple@reddit
They're trying to cash in on the popularity of skin diseases.
inkjod@reddit
I love that reference!
azhder@reddit
I go with Esma Script
Omni__Owl@reddit
I see a did a typo haha. But yeah wauw...what a change xD
josefx@reddit
I always end up thinking eczema script, but that might just be my opinion of the language showing.
blafunke@reddit
TypeScriptScript
SkepticalBelieverr@reddit
What about actionscript?
Stunning_Ad_1685@reddit
AppleScript
birdbrainswagtrain@reddit
All I'm seeing in this proposal is an excuse to inflict the borrow checker on another language.
stillusegoto@reddit
I vote for “CrapShoot”
jherico@reddit
cough typescript cough
Ok_Cancel_7891@reddit
typoScript
Dreamtrain@reddit
there's enough "I want my objects to surprise me at runtime" degenerates out there that won't touch typescript that keep it from becoming the status quo
wormania@reddit
People are still free to use UntypedScript
Dreamtrain@reddit
you're def free to use and publish a PR, but I expect a tech lead worth his salt won't allow that shit in prod
azhder@reddit
Labeling people you disagree with as "degenerates"... yeah, calling names is certainly far above that /s
2005scape@reddit
typelessscript
azhder@reddit
I always say "tapas crypt"
god_is_my_father@reddit
Ohhh I was gonna eat that mummy
tankerdudeucsc@reddit
The article says JS is the most popular language? Since when?
Dashy1024@reddit
Why not just rename JavaScript and ECMAScript to WebScript?
jherico@reddit
Too many people use it for desktop apps to do that. They'd object that it makes it seem like the language isn't suitable for that kind of thing.
guepier@reddit
Tell that to Microsoft. .net …
spacejack2114@reddit
dotnet.
iseke@reddit
Microsoft has not been one to be good at naming stuff like... Ever.
svth@reddit
Microsoft has not been one to be good at building stuff like... ever.
falconzord@reddit
I remember when not that long ago it was impossible to look up help for .net, C# wasn't much better either. They should just rename both to Csharp and dotnet. And what the hell does Series X mean anyway
mailslot@reddit
Microsoft is still stuck in the 90s when adding the letter X to things was totally eXtreme dude. ActiveX, DirectX, DirectX Box / Xbox, Xbox Series X, XNA, VBX, CXX…
literallyfabian@reddit
Starting with "Microsoft" as a company name lmao
nerd4code@reddit
Microcomputer Software? Boring, but direct.
Chaos_Slug@reddit
And it's not like there were that many other companies selling microcomputer software, so at that time, it was more specific than it seems today.
azhder@reddit
A network is a wider concept than "the web"
mccoyn@reddit
It’s the inclusion of punctuation in the name after web search was already becoming a common programmer tool.
azhder@reddit
DNS, that's where that "punctuation in the name" comes from. Anyways...
They didn't get to that stupid name because of WWW. They got to it because "Developers, developers, developers...". Remember that one? If not, you can easily find a video.
What did M$ do back then? They lost the people who were writing the software, so they thought "I have a genius idea, let's say we build a network" or some shit like that. They even named people partners, gave certificates, titles, levels... The works. Just to get people back to write software for their eco system, using their tools.
guepier@reddit
No, what you are writing is mostly wrong. You seem to be trying to make an educated guess, but there’s no need for that: the actual reason is known. The name “.NET” was explicitly chosen as a reference to .com, to jump on the dot-com hype wagon.
Yes, it references networks and networking. But it definitely refers to them in a computer network context, and makes explicit reference to the internet.
I’m too lazy to find a reference, but this was never a secret, several people who were part of the early .NET team have written about it, and it should be easy to find online.
azhder@reddit
Well, maybe it wasn’t a secret, but it was definitely an excret
reversehead@reddit
But they found out that they could do so much better:
https://apps.microsoft.com/detail/9n1f85v9t8bn?hl=en-us&gl=US
markdestouches@reddit
Isn’t it part of their brand, making things backwards?
stult@reddit
So it makes it seem like it is, I don't see the problem
markdestouches@reddit
The language isn’t suitable for anything it’s being used for, to be fair.
cs_office@reddit
Then they'd be right lol
CryZe92@reddit
WebAssembly and WebGPU would beg to differ.
atomic1fire@reddit
I think it's more so that they're designed for the web, but all the strengths to being good for web development also apply to desktop and mobile as well.
A full language specification, with several implementations and cross platform support is probably ideal for desktop development.
hatuthecat@reddit
Even more of a reason to do it then. Fewer crappy electron apps is a win in my book.
syklemil@reddit
At that point, why not just rename it to wat?
Kelpsie@reddit
I love the use of the phrase "why not just" as a prelude to suggesting some absolutely gargantuan effort requiring the cooperation of huge quantities of people and organisations.
apadin1@reddit
Why not just invent an entirely new programming language and convince every programmer in the world to adopt it? Then we won’t have to deal with JavaScript anymore either!
PlateletsAtWork@reddit
Or maybe just “JS”, not short for anything. People often shorten JavaScript to JS anyway.
tekanet@reddit
Jayes
rebbsitor@reddit
If I've learned anything from GIF, it's that JS would be pronounced Geez :)
PM_ME_LULU_PLAYS@reddit
Beats the alternative..
azhder@reddit
It's no longer a teenager kind to call it "J. S."
aykcak@reddit
Isn't it more when web by now? Hell, a good chunk of mobile apps even
Rodot@reddit
What about just Script?
Serious_Web7948@reddit
I work for Oracle, and I somehow find it even funnier.
xabrol@reddit
Just rename it to WebScript, done.
protomyth@reddit
Well, then you run into Apple via NeXT.
myringotomy@reddit
Just about every language compiles to JS anyway. It's become the assembly of the web.
Zastoi@reddit
It’s more like the bytecode of the web
CumCloggedArteries@reddit
The assembly of the web is WebAssembly
Lisoph@reddit
ECMAScript is better anyway.
granadesnhorseshoes@reddit
“ECMAScript was always an unwanted trade name that sounds like a skin disease.”
azhder@reddit
Because he read the C like a K, not like an S
syklemil@reddit
Ah, just what the programming world needed: A good follow-up to the "how do you pronounce gif?" debate
azhder@reddit
Your sarcasm is misguided. Just hear how a French says JavaScript or JSON and you will know it’s already too late for that joke.
syklemil@reddit
I don't really have that easy access to a french-speaker, so you'd have to enlighten me. Unless your point is about pronouncing j in the /r/JuropijanSpeling way, in which case I likely do the same for javascript (or as the anglos would hear it, yavaskript). But that's more a language leakage, like hypercorrecting victory to wiktory, while C is more of a genderfluid letter that could be either k or s depending on its mood today.
(Personally I'd do fine if askii didn't have q or c, but instead let them be unikode karakters. Just flatten them to o and k; it'd be about as korrekt as when other letters get flattened to askii.)
Smooth_Detective@reddit
EczemaScript.
True-Mirror-5758@reddit
It often does make me itchy. It's okay as a glue language, but it's being forced into making entire GUI and virtual OS engines, not its forte.
Chisignal@reddit
Okay so I do agree with the letter and the motivation, but what problems does Oracle holding the trademark actually cause? Or maybe rather, what is the worst case scenario here?
Could Oracle one day wake up on their evil side, realize they hold the rights to JavaScript (the name), and... what exactly?
vytah@reddit
They do some trademark trolling:
https://www.reddit.com/r/javascript/comments/8d0bg2/oracle_owns_javascript_so_apple_is_taking_down_my/
https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/14vnipl/rust_for_javascript_developers_ltd_received_a/
Chisignal@reddit
Oh wow, wasn't aware. That makes it much more compelling, thanks for the receipts
wildjokers@reddit
Defending your legitimate trademark is not trademark trolling.
WaitForItTheMongols@reddit
That presupposes that the trademark is legitimate.
The amount of widespread unauthorized use of the name does not indicate that they are properly defending it in a legitimate manner. They allow the name to be used by millions of people all the time without a license.
OMG_A_CUPCAKE@reddit
It's mentioned in the letter
Chisignal@reddit
Oh I completely missed that, thank you!
Additional_Sir4400@reddit
Trademarks are lost if you do not enforce them. I assume by now the trademark is worthless in court and its main use is simply the threat of a long legal process.
wildjokers@reddit
Why would it be worthless? Oracle definitely defends their JavaScript trademark.
umtala@reddit
Basically nothing, the trademark is toast.
They could sue some small fish into the ground if they felt like it, but they could do that without the trademark too, it's Oracle.
All of these mega corps have strategic patent portfolios that are way more scary than the JavaScript trademark.
Frosty-Pack@reddit
Well, one could argue that they should have used a different name.
Lucas_Steinwalker@reddit
Java is to Javascript as car is to carpet
jrhorn424@reddit
Java is to JavaScript as horse is to horseradish.
Lucas_Steinwalker@reddit
Thanks for fixing it.
SneakyStabbalot@reddit
I am using that! I often tell people the only things the two have in common are the letters J,A and V.
wildjokers@reddit
Not really, both Java and JavaScript are programming languages. They are much more similar than a car is to a carpet.
zrvwls@reddit
How about:
Java is to Javascript as car is to cart.
xlowen@reddit
Made me lol
FlukyS@reddit
Well didn't they start at almost the same time? Like months apart
throwawaymo11812@reddit
Honestly, it’s wild to think about how much JavaScript has evolved from its early days. The whole 'write once, run anywhere' mantra seems more true now than ever, especially with frameworks like Node.js and modern front-end tools. But yeah, Oracle’s tight grip on technologies has been frustrating in the past... Looking at you, Java. 😅 Hopefully, they don’t try the same thing with JavaScript!
CumCloggedArteries@reddit
Isn't that Java's slogan?
wildjokers@reddit
Oracle has some awful business practices for sure; however, Oracle has been an outstanding steward of Java and the language is in great hands.
shevy-java@reddit
The take on GraalVM in the post is weird. At any rate, trademarks slow down mankind so I am all in favour of breaking up the evil monopoly. It would have been better to design an agnostic language from the get go, though. A bit like webassembly, but trade-mark free. Some video codecs went that way; see the old divx versus xvid and many other examples.
But ... it is Oracle, and trademarks protect assets, which makes money and profit, which shareholders love, so they'll not do anything - unless pressured seriously.
sneakattack@reddit
Every decision Oracle makes has a single requirement which must be met 100% of the time: "Piss everyone off."
CumCloggedArteries@reddit
Genuine question: If it's already genericized, why does it matter that Oracle owns the trademark?
wildjokers@reddit
Because Netscape put "Java" in the name of their new language which Sun had a trademark on in relation to programming languages. So there was some arrangement where Sun trademarked JavaScript and licensed it to Netscape. Oracle become owner of the trademark when they acquired Sun.
maqcky@reddit
C--
markdestouches@reddit
Just call it an F. Both a name and a grade for it’s original design
vplatt@reddit
Cripes.. just file the petition already. It's not like giving them notice of your intentions will help the situation at all. The worst possible thing they could do would be to make a half-assed effort now that would in some way qualify them to keep the trademark.
AlexHimself@reddit
I think it's strategic abandonment.
Anyone can file a petition with the Trademark Trial and Appeal Board (TTAB) that the trademark has been abandoned. They just need standing, where the person filing is either harmed or plans to use the mark.
Nobody is really harmed by their continued Trademark AND nobody really has or can have a plan to USE the Trademark, because it's too easy to argue that it's become 'generic'.
So the strategic part is they do nothing and keep the name Oracle associated with JavaScript and nothing happens.
svkmg@reddit
My understanding is the trademark is still being licensed to Mozilla, and their implementation of ECMAScript is officially Javascript™. Until recently it was even a different language from ECMAScript, having some non-standard features like array comprehensions and Python style generators (long before function* was a thing). But these days Mozilla keeps their implementation more in line with ECMAScript, finally removing those non-standard features a few years ago and no longer releasing numbered versions of Javascript (the last one was 1.8 back in 2008? I believe), so the distinction between the two doesn't really mean anything anymore.
nirreskeya@reddit
Just rename it similar to LAME. JAJS: JAJS Ain't JavaScript
spartanstu2011@reddit
Given the amount of managers and projects managers I’ve interacted with who don’t understand the difference between JavaScript and Java, I’d rather we change the name.
thousand yard stare
bwainfweeze@reddit
As someone who found his way to Node via a circuitous path from Java, I know that look.
Primeagen did a reaction of a 'readability' video by a reasonably well known Java Dev and it was so shocking to me what counts as 'readable'. It's so insane over there they see code with terrible locality of reference as a breath of fresh air.
kelu16@reddit
L
BiteFancy9628@reddit
jvscript
ToaruBaka@reddit
Cool, now find someone to take Oracle to court.
A1oso@reddit
The authors of the letter wrote that they will challenge the trademark if Oracle doesn't respond. Read the end of the letter. Also, you can add your signature (GitHub name) if you want.
ToaruBaka@reddit
I hope they do, but I'll believe it when I see a court filing.
A1oso@reddit
Well, the authors of this letter (Ryan Dahl, Brendan Eich, Michael Ficarra, etc.) aren't famous because of empty promises, so I am optimistic.
suinp@reddit
How would that happen realistically? I guess someone would need to sue for the right to use the name, but who and why?
A1oso@reddit
See the signatures at the end of the letter:
rbobby@reddit