SSDs using MLC in 2024?
Posted by HazyChemist@reddit | buildapc | View on Reddit | 27 comments
I've been out of the loop for a good 6+ years now, but it is my understanding that roughly around the time I handed in my PC enthusiast card, consumer grade MLC drives slowly went the way of dinosaurs?
Been contemplating doing a new build, but was shocked to see TLC (albeit 3D TLC instead of planar) has become the new "high end", with even QLC being a thing now! (QLC - 4 bits per cell - holy mackerel!)
Would I be correct in saying consumer grade MLC SSDs (regardless of form factor or interface) have become completely extinct in 2024? And if so, 3D TLC is about as "high end" I can buy?
(yes I understand TLC has come a very long way since 2013, and the 3D TLC of 2024 is a very different beast compared to the planar TLC that caused the 840 Evo speed degradation fiasco)
fleperson@reddit
For future searches: Samsung 980 Pro is MLC, and still sells on a lot of places. 990 is TLC.
HazyChemist@reddit (OP)
The 980 Pro is TLC per Anandtech: The Samsung 980 PRO PCIe 4.0 SSD Review: A Spirit of Hope
You might be thinking of the 970 Pro, which still uses MLC
fleperson@reddit
Either the data is incorrect on that article (and also on TPU Database), or Samsung released newer versions of it using MLC, as you can see on their own product page, 980 PRO PCIe® 4.0 NVMe™ SSD 2TB Memory & Storage - MZ-V8P2T0B/AM | Samsung US, saying "Samsung V-NAND 3-bit MLC"
HazyChemist@reddit (OP)
Ah that's just marketing trickery.
"3 bit MLC" is just a fancy name for TLC (TLC = triple level cell = 3 bits per cell)
"Real" MLC would be 2-bit MLC
fleperson@reddit
We learn something new every day. Thanks!
Impossible_Okra@reddit
The Samsung 970 Pro is the last mainstream Consumer NVMe SSD. On the Sata side the Samsung 850/860 Pros. All of these are supposedly out of production so you'll have to go to the used market if you want MLC.
There are also Samsung OEM and enterprise MLC drives, I know the 960/970 Pros had OEM variations. I read somewhere that Samsung's naming conventions indicate memory type, those drives beginning with "SM" have MLC, while "PM" is TLC.
R84MK@reddit
Last OEM MLC from Samsung is SM961. And SM961 is 960Pro.
fleperson@reddit
Just updating here for any future searches, Samsung 980 Pro still sells and is MLC
HazyChemist@reddit (OP)
Ha yeah I'm still rocking a 2TB 850 Pro from 2015 as my OS drive. Almost a decade later and it's still flawless. Would've sprung for the 4TB version if cost wasn't prohibitive back in those days - I think it was almost $2k for the 4TB back in 2015. (am I showing my age yet lol)
And thanks for confirming the 970 Pro was the last consumer NVME MLC drive. Was kinda hoping I overlooked some hidden gem but guess not. :(
blueditblack@reddit
I really wish there were more solid facts on reliability for those of us who have data that can never be replaced. Ever.
There's a lot of vague info out there on bit rot and other reasons why more electrical bit levels increase the chance of errors. For anyone gaming, I would think that most of the the new drives, even the newer QLC is ok. But as far as backing things up, I don't trust anything other than an old conventional hard platter hard drive. I've had backups for over 15 years on internal drives and they've never let me down. They will fail at some point, but I keep about 6 to 8 clones of every drive and just update them with FreeFileSync ever 3 or 4 months. You can still use a SSD for your everyday use, but put your backup on conventional disk drives. There's too many people that say, O.. don't worry, it doesn't matter. Those are the ones that always get burned.
HazyChemist@reddit (OP)
Ah yes finally someone who gets it. It's not so much everyday use or gaming I'm concerned about, but long term storage.
I too use a spinner for long term archival, because magnetic storage is a proven technology over the long term (Google used tape backup - yes TAPE - until at least mid 2010's from what I could find). The best SLC and controllers in the world are still subject to electromigration and other forms of electronic degradation over the years.
Anecdotally however, I will just give this observation. I bought 2x Samsung 840 Pro SSD back in 2013, and completely retired them in 2015. The last time I powered them on was probably in 2016 or 2017 at the latest. This thread got me curious, so I plugged them into my desktop with an eSATA cable. They did take much longer than usual to be recognized, and I actually thought they were dead. However once initiated, all the data is still there fully intact, and I can still read/write to them no problem. Subsequent connections also recognized instantly without the long wait time.
A part of me can't help but think the MLC in them was key to their longevity, and I have my doubts about whether TLC could've survived 7 or 8 years without being powered on once and not cause any data corruption.
blueditblack@reddit
Thanks HazyChemist
Another point I forgot to mention. I'm all about backing up data, because after all it's the data we want to keep. We can always reinstall an OS, but not lost data.
Here is something to think about: If you back up your data to an internal conventional hard drive for example - that means taking the drive out of the original box every month, or 2, months what have you (as I do for updates). Those drives will last for 20 or possibly more years. This (might) also be the case with SSDs, but there is one problem with SSDs. The risk that bit rot could happen from extreme weather changes or if they sit too long without doing a backup. I just know form experience that disk drives don't have this issue as long and you don't drop them too hard. That's why I put them back in the box with the original plastic shocks. And contrary to what I said above about having drives that are 15 years old. I've actually got a few that are 18 years old now and still running solid. I just say to people, us SSDs for the OS drive and maybe your gaming install drive, you can always re install the games if they fail, but you'll get the speed you need. That's what I've done. But nothing important gets backed up to SSds. And I can get a TON of space for less $ with disk drives.
One word of caution. I will not buy USB conventional drives anymore. Almost everyone of them has failed on me. Two of the W/D books I was able to break open the case and take the drives out and plug them into my front SATA bays and they worked great again. So it had to be the USB controllers. But some of them have proprietary connections and your out of luck. I don't know who seagates are now, but I've had 3 of them go back just from dropping them on carpet a short fall and that was with the drive off.
Last. I can't remember who made the cool spin drives as I'm in front of my keyboards atm. I know I have a few. That ones I have are very slow, 5400s. Why do I love these drives? Because after copying files for an hour, the drive is cool when I take it out. Perfect for a backup drive and the low heat makes for better longevity.
acewing905@reddit
What do you intend to do with this new build? Gaming? Video editing? Other intensive work? Because depending on what you do, it won't even matter
I've been testing out a Samsung QLC drive for games lately, and it's been pretty solid
Ultimately, you only need to worry about this if you're doing something that causes heavy writes on a regular basis
HazyChemist@reddit (OP)
Probably something like 50% gaming, 20% photo editing, 20% computationally intensive scientific calculations/modelling, 10% encoding?
Nothing excessively heavy, but QLC I'd personally stay far away from just for the write speed cliff when the SLC cache runs out.
acewing905@reddit
QLC works very well for gaming
But for other stuff such as the scientific stuff and encoding, it won't do
What I personally do is keep multiple SSDs, though I realize most people don't want to do that
VoidNinja62@reddit
QLC is fine for desktop consumer use
Really, its fine.
HazyChemist@reddit (OP)
I mean this is a fair comment as far as TBW/endurance is concerned.
I suppose my main gripe is more... theoretical? MLC is only 2 bits per cell, with 4 different voltage states. TLC ups that to 3 bits and 8 states, then QLC goes hog wild with 4 bits and 16 voltage states!!
My understanding is as you incrementally double the voltage states, you have an increasingly narrower threshold voltage range, which makes the cells more prone to bit errors. This requires better ECC from the controller, and it has to work harder as well. Going from MLC to QLC quadruples the voltage states, which has significant consequences even just on read/write speeds (especially sequential write).
Anyways I'm getting carried away here, but I guess my main point is: none of the above really matters if you change/upgrade your SSD every few years. But for dinosaurs like me that like to keep their tech for at least 5+ years (or 10+ years), longevity is always at the back of my mind.
dertechie@reddit
Unless you are mining Chia or doing something else incredibly write intensive, that TBW goes way farther than you’d think it would. Most consumer workloads are WORM (write once read many).
s00mika@reddit
Isn't Chia also WORM
dertechie@reddit
So apparently the “destroys your SSDs” thing was a thing with the original version of Chia and there now exist more efficient ways to build plots.
The original code for whatever reason didn’t fit in RAM and basically had to page out an insane amount of data. Being used this aggressively as a page file just wrecked consumer SSDs, especially QLC. Normal use of part of an SSD as page file is fine but this was just hammering the drives thousands of times faster than normal wear. Once a plot file was created it would pretty much sit there and be read from though.
MarxistMan13@reddit
Modern TLC drives will likely outlive you, not just your current PC build. For most mid-range or better SSDs, endurance should not be a concern unless you really hammer them with writes constantly.
VoidNinja62@reddit
Then get a Teamgroup MP44 haha.
s00mika@reddit
SSDs have improved a lot since the 840 Evo. 3D NAND fixed basically all of its issues for normal use
If you want very high endurance on the cheap you could also take a look at used enterprise U.2 drives, but chances are that those have worse performance than current drives
HazyChemist@reddit (OP)
Appreciate the comment, but in a post above, I mentioned it's less about endurance, and more the complexity and associated challenges/downstream effects of the controller having to manage both a narrower threshold voltage, and 8 voltage states in TLC vs 4 in MLC. Aka is the controller gonna wear out faster? Stored data at higher risk long(er) term? (I know I'm really getting into the weeds here)
Granted my knowledge of SSDs is stuck in 2018, so perhaps the questions I'm asking aren't even relevant anymore.
coatimundislover@reddit
SSD lifetimes and reliability are significantly better than 2018. You should have a backup of important data no matter what.
greggm2000@reddit
I don’t personally know of any consumer SSDs that use MLC these days, but do note that you can use enterprise SSDs in your consumer PC just fine (U.2 at least), you just need a PCIe card (to mount your U.2 drive to, or to provide internal U.2 connectors… or, alternatively, a M.2 to U.2 adapter. More hassle than a bog-standard M.2 NVMe consumer drive, but it does have it’s use cases.
Neraxis@reddit
Yeah back when I was perusing SSDs this was a thing. Come now just about everything is TLC or QLC. Once you see the TBW ratings for most TLC SSDs you kind of stop caring.
I didn't bother looking for 2 layer stuff after that.