Vim is Better - Here's Why (beginners introduction to Neovim as an IDE)
Posted by No-Bug-242@reddit | programming | View on Reddit | 80 comments
Posted by No-Bug-242@reddit | programming | View on Reddit | 80 comments
Specialist_Brain841@reddit
the screen should go red whenever the caps lock is on
Tigh_Gherr@reddit
Ha, depending in your terminal you could probably set the background to change if you have capslock enabled
modernkennnern@reddit
You should just unbind Caps Lock. I've personally never used it - at least in over 10 years - on purpose.
uCodeSherpa@reddit
Looks like it can be done with changing registry keys.
Not sure I would pick left-control as the key (or maybe I would, but then rebinding left control to something else).
pkop@reddit
Rebind caps lock to Escape
Michaeli_Starky@reddit
My biggest issue with Vim is that it throws out of the window every bit of muscle memory built up in modern IDEs. The second biggest is that it actually requires more focus: tracking the mod you're in, pressing a sequence of keys to perform action, and mistakes can cost dearly.
plantfumigator@reddit
I've been using IdeaVim on Rider for over a year now and I've never paid attention to what mode I'm in. And the keystrokes to perform an action are actually very useful
Brother you don't even know how to undo in vim and you're talking shit
Michaeli_Starky@reddit
Every action is time-consuming. Undos especially.
OurLordAndSaviorVim@reddit
Literally press u.
Michaeli_Starky@reddit
Why should I when in normal editors it's hard to accidentally do what wasn't an intent?
Tigh_Gherr@reddit
OK you lose time pressing one key to undo but you're still net positive with the time saved via other motions
plantfumigator@reddit
I'm 80% sure your entire experience with Vim keystrokes is under 2 hours.
Your points are so ridiculous to an actual Vim user lmao
Michaeli_Starky@reddit
Sure, I make mistakes. About twice or thrice a day when I do actually need the undo in normal editors.
Close to 4000h in neovim as of today.
plantfumigator@reddit
Then, I must say, your findings are extremely confusing.
Michaeli_Starky@reddit
What's exactly confusing for you?
vitingo@reddit
I thought everyone used a vim clutch
divad1196@reddit
The active mode is display on my bottom left corner, but I honestly don't need to check it anymore. When you are writing, you know that you are on insert mode, same for any mode. But yes, I might press the wrong key sometimes, but I either need to press "u" or "esc" to revert it. You need to try it to know it.
But my question is: what muscle memory do you develop on IDE? Most devs I know are mouse-guys that do any action with the mouse. There are a few exception like: - (un)commenting code - open find/search - ... But not many I guess ? Let me know.
Michaeli_Starky@reddit
I've been using vim for 12 years. I know what I am talking about.
uCodeSherpa@reddit
You’ve been using vim for 12 years and don’t know how to undo?
That sounds made up to me.
Michaeli_Starky@reddit
I do know how to use it. And listing reasons why vim is just a religion.
divad1196@reddit
Sorry then, but why do you struggle to keep track of your current mode then? Even if you don't have an indicator, you just press esc a few times and you know you are back to normal mode.
And could you give me example of muscle memories you develop on standard IDE? I have worked longuer on VSCode (IDEA during school) than on VIM but I don't see a single thing that could become muscle memory on those.
Michaeli_Starky@reddit
So that's exactly what I am talking about in my original comment.
divad1196@reddit
Okay, I take back my sorry
I tried to be nice and give you the benefit of the doubt, but you are just throwing non sense that you cannot defend. I seriously doubt that you have ever used vim.
As said, I have used other IDE for a lot longer than vim. I don't know a single person, that developed any skill on them. Yet, you claim you do, but on something like vim, after supposedly 12 years, you didn't developed the first, most basic, reflex of knowing your current mode?
Specialist_Brain841@reddit
you must unlearn what you have learned.. like object oriented programming and functional programming
Winsaucerer@reddit
I use (neo)vim all the time. Any mistakes so far cost me a 'u' to undo. Any particular mistakes you're thinking of that aren't one keystroke away from reversing?
Obviously, for me the muscle memory is what stops me using other IDE's :) Even if they have a vim mode, there's inevitably certain things that are still different. The big one for me is that I regularly open up different windows inside my session, for files side by side, or terminal next to code, and copy things to/from the terminal using visual mode. And then multiple tabs with different layouts where I switch between them quickly and regularly via shortcuts. I find that hard to give up.
rom_romeo@reddit
I’d accept a challenge by any VIM user when it comes to a code debugging lmao. I’m just using a good ol’ JetBrains product.
Muhznit@reddit
vim is a text editor, not a debugger. I mean you can have vim call a debugger, but the contest makes as much sense as a swimming contest between a fish and a scuba diver.
how is the contest even scored, for that matter? And where does debugging start? Like if debugging starts from whatever point in the code is producing the error, IDE probably wins, but if it starts from the logfile containing the error, vim probably wins. Generally the more searches and repeated-but-with-one-thing-changed kinda stuff you need to do, vim will probably have an advantage.
rom_romeo@reddit
But OP themself makes the bold claim that VIM can be used as an IDE (I don’t necessarily disagree, but at what cost of the efficiency)??? Anyways, even if it’s used as an editor to search through large files, Sublime is probably a better option and way more user friendly. Yes! Sublime is extremely efficient when it comes to opening and searching large files. What’s left for VIM? Probably same large files, but on remote servers. However, in the era of cloud computing, such searching through log files is superseded by things like ELK stack or tools like Datadog.
Muhznit@reddit
Let's be real, OP doesn't know the difference between a text editor and an IDE. In addition, the article only touches on a fraction of percent of a tip of the iceberg of vim's abilties as an editor. It doesn't even cover what
.does (repeats the last change), let alone macros. The famous you don't grok vi post on stackoverflow covers far more detail.Secondly, there's not much point in citing a "cost in efficiency" if you can't quantify it. Like is efficiency measured in terms of how old a pc can get before it can no longer use the editor to perform a given task? How few keystrokes are needed to do a task? How little memory is consumed? Those are all things vim will excel at.
Finally, vim isn't meant to be "user friendly". It's meant to be effective in whatever dire "i fucked up a config" situation you wind up in. If the debugging contest is to figure out why your GUI won't start, vim wins by default. If you happen to actually take the time to learn the random stuff along the way (like
:set undofile,set virtualedit=allto draw ASCII diagrams, or running a macro on specific entries of a quickfix-formatted list generated by some external program) then it's just additional benefit.No-Bug-242@reddit (OP)
What would you say are the properties of a commercial IDE that are making it different from a neovim that is configured to act as one?
Muhznit@reddit
The differences lie in the opinions that went into designing the interconnected parts of the IDE.
Think of the actual "meat" of an IDE as basically a wrapper that connects several other applications/functions for running whatever the editor output.
In neovim's case, practically all of that is a part of the configuration. If you so wanted you could configure it to act as an IDE for making polyglots.
Commercial IDEs are more subject to being biased for a specific language and tools surrounding them. On the one hand that rigidity may be more consistent across users (e.g. minimizing "it works on my machine" errors), but that rigidity can also lead to lack of adaptability (e.g. no syntax highlighting for your company's proprietary domain-specific language)
The trade-off between consistency and adaptability therefore renders comparisons between (neo)vim and commercial IDEs kinda moot.
No-Bug-242@reddit (OP)
Interesting answer, thank you for that! I don't necessarily disagree with you, but at the end of the day, the proper definition of an IDE is less important than the capabilities of your environerent to support different Dev tools.
Like a commercial IDE, a neovim setup would be a core software that integrates a collection of clients to invoke different services and application (LSP servers, debuggers, formatters, linters, co-pilot, etc.).
My neovim setup definitely has a stronger lean towards Go. It excels at integrating different Go tools together. It can also support many other languages in a similar manner, but there's a strong emphasis on Go.
For you last sentence, I completely agree. Commercial IDEs are more coherent and deliver an easy "plug and play" experience at the expense of being opinionated. On the opposite side (even though neovim "distributions" challenge this perception), you'll make many choices, potentially creating an incoherent environment.
No-Bug-242@reddit (OP)
your IDE is doing the same, both use a DAP adapter to connect to some debugging runtime
Onebadmuthajama@reddit
100% right take. Debugging tooling on a traditional IDE will outclass VIM every day of the week. It’s because VIM is a text editor, and calling it an IDE is like calling my codebase a book.
Dry-Pea-181@reddit
It takes 15 minutes to learn how to use a cli debugger. With far more scripting and reproducibility potential. Even if you don’t use VIM, you should learn gdb/your language’s debugger.
twinklehood@reddit
15 minutes to learn to use gdb? What are you talking about?
Dry-Pea-181@reddit
https://youtu.be/Dq8l1_-QgAc?si=ASN1kVudFv9II5qa
modernkennnern@reddit
Never heard about a cli debugger. How does that work? Sounds interesting.
foonathan@reddit
When I'm debugging, it's either simple (single breakpoint + single stepping + eval expr), which vim totally handles, or so complex that I'd want lldb anyway.
plantfumigator@reddit
Luckily JetBrains has IdeaVim - probably the best vim emulator of any IDE
twinklehood@reddit
Evil mode would like to have a word
plantfumigator@reddit
While Emacs can be an IDE, it is not an IDE per se
twinklehood@reddit
True, but the most popular distributions are definitely IDEs and include evil, so my point stands :)
T_D_K@reddit
I run a vim emulator in Visual studio (and vs code). Best of both worlds.
divad1196@reddit
I hate Jetbrains products, except IDEA because it goes with the Java mentality. My issue with them is that most developers don't know what is happening at all because everything is hidden. They just trust the tool and are unable to code on another IDE, or run their program manually.
I say "most" because I have not met every developers, but from my very own experience, every developer I met that was using jetbrains' IDE were bad. Are they using jetbrains because they are bad and the IDE helped them, or did the IDE prevent thrm to get better?
Again, there are certainly good developers out there using these IDE, but that's my experience as of today.
No-Bug-242@reddit (OP)
I actually really like the nvim-dap plugin, and whenever I'm co-debugging something with a college who's using Goland, I get confused :) (but that just me)
Winsaucerer@reddit
I actually jump over to Goland when debugging :) Haven't spent the time to work out how to do it well in neovim yet.
ciynoobv@reddit
I can buy that vim is a really good text editor, might even be the best one (after a learning curve). But I rarely need just an editor when I’m working, and I’m very skeptical that it comes remotely close to something like IntelliJ when it comes to debugging, refactoring tools, structural search and so on while still making all the pieces play nicely together.
I understand that many feel like Jetbrains products are big, clunky and complicated, but I’d bet my [insert pg13 appropriate body part] that trying to make vim have half of IntelliJ’s features would make it into a bloated unmanageable mess.
No-Bug-242@reddit (OP)
I'll have to disagree on that one, most of my colleagues are using Goland (some VSCode) and I've never felt like I'm missing something they have.
on the contrary, for quite some time, my co-pilot integration was more advanced compared to Goland, not the mention the speed of which I can navigate through projects and files.
debugging is well formed in neovim, you can actually have more freedom of choice when you setup your debugging env. (e.g., I like a simple step debugger, with a repl opened below and evaluations being printed directly next to code lines, some will prefer a more traditional IDE setup, etc.)
refactoring is no different, auto renaming, auto implementation of place holders, goto definition, auto format, really, everything you'd probably expect.
don't get me wrong, JetBrains' product are outstanding, but to me, neovim is just more exciting and fun.
ciynoobv@reddit
At the risk of sounding like a jackass, this just sounds like your colleagues didn’t know what they could do with goland.
I haven’t used ChatGPT integrations with jetbrains ide’s so I can’t definitely say how it compares to vim’s. The first party JetBrains AI works very well however.
For debugging I’d be surprised if it comes anywhere close though. And you’d have to do the configuration yourself which means there is unlikely any sort of standardization in the org.
Refactoring is one of the strongest points of their products, so your list only really scratches the surface of what is supported, and more importantly is well integrated in their products; workflows differ but I’d feel constrained if I didn’t have access to those.
While this might be subjective I also find that they generally have significantly better syntax highlighting and intellisense, which is probably due to using a BNF based approach rather than depending on lsp’s, though admittedly it’s kinda a pain to develop and means that the support for new languages tends to lag behind other ides and editors. It does mean however that I feel like going back to the Stone Age when I have to use other tools.
You probably could implement vim analogues to anything jetbrains can do, but you’d probably need a team of jetbrains size and several years to implement everything in a coherent way and at that point you’d just made an IntelliJ clone.
No-Bug-242@reddit (OP)
I want to be clear, I think JetBrains' products are exceptionally good and I have full admiration for them. By no means I suggest that people who are using a JetBrains' IDE have less of a good experience.
My arguments are split into one that is more subjective (which I understand it's hard to make a fair, absolute point) and a technical one.
To me, the "vim" way feels more natural and fun. when I write/edit code it feels like my intentions are being directly translated to finger motions, and that's very satisfying and fun.
I acknowledge the immense power of JetBrains' features. And true, in neovim I probably use a fairly low/medium percentage of equivalent features, but in all my years as a software engineer, I've never experienced any significant impact on delivery time of code quality, just because I use neovim.
AgoAndAnon@reddit
The reason I don't want to use vim as an IDE is the same reason I don't want to use Eclipse. I don't want to have to install a billion plugins and eventually end up in dependency hell when one of them breaks relative to the others.
"Oh the TorvDap plugin requires DrebDorp@1.0.0, but DongDerf requires DrebDorp@2.0.0, and version 1 to version 2 is a non-backwards-compatible change for DrebDorp."
Plugins are great in theory, but as soon as the plugins need to talk to each other, everything goes to hell.
No-Bug-242@reddit (OP)
that's a good point! opinionated, commercial software is indeed tends to be more coherent, and if your looking for an "all in one" software, then vim might not be for you (although neovim distributions challenge this perception)
it's roughly analogues to apple machines vs. pcs, a macbook pro is much better at integrating with its os, compared to pc.
I'd say, when it comes to open source project, the stability and support is very much dependent on the size and engagement of the community, and currently, neovim community is very active and it looks like that's going to increase in the future
AgoAndAnon@reddit
The way I've been phrasing it lately: I want a tool, not a relationship. A tool does what you want. A relationship requires constant discussion.
The trend toward making software into relationships is infuriating.
No-Bug-242@reddit (OP)
Nice phrase! Following this analogy, I'd say that a tool is nice, it does what you want and for the most part, you probably don't need more. But then you get bored, and you're starting to look for a new tool that does what you want, but better.
You like your new tool and now you certainly don't need to replace it. But then you get bored... And the cycle continues, until you realise; "does what you want" isn't what you want, you want to have fun. "getting things done" becomes a byproduct of having fun.
It's more interesting and easier to have fun by having a relationship, having a second opinion, a discussion if you will. It's bit harder and lonely if it's just you and some tool.
AgoAndAnon@reddit
I do think that open source projects tend to be bad at doing "boring" integration work.
But yes, this is also why I prefer working on a Mac rather than a PC or Linux type box.
RageQuitRedux@reddit
I've been using the Vim plug-in for Jetbrains, but let me know when there's a good LSP for Kotlin and I'll consider switching.
Also, it is by far not obvious to me that everyone should learn vim motions. You have to rewire your muscle memory to something that (a) flies in the face of all modern keystroke conventions, (b) is kind if idiotic in it's own right (why HJKL instead of JKL;? The answer is "for very stupid historical reasons"). You can eventually reach a higher editing speed, but typing is not the bottleneck for most programmers, so this is a really dubious benefit. IMO think twice before going down that road.
OurLordAndSaviorVim@reddit
One person’s “very stupid historical reasons” is another’s “backwards compatibility”.
RageQuitRedux@reddit
I think we can finally let go of the ADM-3A terminal
twinklehood@reddit
Is it? In all the time I used vim I never heard this. Just people not wanting to configure or deal with issues, or who were put off by the learning curve or look.
I think the "superior" argument is a bit dated. You can also enable vim keybindings in other editors nowadays. Do it because it's fun. If it's fun, you made your job more fun, which is a great investment.
No-Bug-242@reddit (OP)
a lot of people around me, who knows vim just as this old editor you use to change a file when ssh to some remote server, assumes that vim is just a confusing old text editor and nothing more, and they don't understand why on Earth will I choose this editor to right code. (I personally heard this claim many times in different places)
enabling keybinding to do vim motions in your favorite IDE sounds like a very nice idea!
PiotrDz@reddit
What about code completion, context etc?
drakythe@reddit
https://github.com/neoclide/coc.nvim for neovim. Or a plugin called YouCompleteMe for standard vim.
No-Bug-242@reddit (OP)
https://github.com/hrsh7th/nvim-cmp/releases nvim-cmp is the current popular way to do auto completion in neovim
drakythe@reddit
Oh nice! Been a while since I went looking for an autocomplete plugin. I’ll take a look.
divad1196@reddit
I understand what you mean, but if I take my experience: most developers as at least a friend or colleague that uses vim (and probably a custom keyboard 60%) and only swear on it. So, while they don't understand "how, they know they can.
Usually, beginners discover vi/vim and would ask someone "why use it?" And will get a response quite fast
No-Bug-242@reddit (OP)
I agree. vim (especially neovim) community grew significantly in the last few years, so the "secrets" of this editor are getting more and more exposure, and if you got to this point where you convinced yourself that vim might be good, it will be quite easy to get the necessary resources to learn why
aqjo@reddit
I think the right editor/ide for you depends on how you work. I can’t imagine having neovim full screen on my 28” dualup monitor with 5 panes open, some with 4 tabs or more in them, and maybe a log file on one of my other monitors.
But that’s me. I don’t attempt to prescribe the way I work to anyone else.
brtastic@reddit
I prefer vim to modern editors neither because of the editing model (you can get it with a vim plugin) nor because of the customizability (I tend to remove more and more custom features from my config as the time passes). I just don't want to be forced to switch an editor ever again, no matter what OS I use, what language I write in or how much time passes. I'm pretty convinced the only real choice for this purpose is either vim or emacs. And using vim is inevitable if you are doing stuff on remote servers.
If your goal is to have a single, trusty editor for the lifetime, it's rather hard to compete with vim. It's been around for so long that I'm almost certain it will outlive me. It's base editing model is good enough that it requires almost no additions - I just use a couple of keymaps and editing plugins I can live without. It requires some plugins to manage multiple files, and I hope these will continue to work for me for as long as possible (nerdtree, fzf, esearch, fugitive, gutentags).
I personally don't care much about neovim specifically. I use it because I like its open source model better than vim's (not sure if it changed after Bram passed away) and because it seemed to be a bit more correct in some details, even if a little less stable. I don't like either vim9 script or lua, but I guess lua is better, if I have to choose. I still write my own (small) extensions in old vimscript when needed - it's the only portable one.
In this context, making an IDE out of vim is kind of defeating its purpose. You will need a ton of plugins, custom configuration, possibly lock yourself to neovim. I think such configuration may be fragile and not stand the test of time without frequent tweaking. It has a very high chance of wasting time instead of saving it.
Of course coding without all the IDE-like features like contex-aware code completion, syntax checking, code refactoring etc. requires a whole different mindset. You need to read more docs, understand the system and the language better, and overall be more aware when coding. I never liked these features so I'm fine with them missing most of the time.
versaceblues@reddit
ive tried a few times to get into using pure NeoVIM. Almost always just end up going back to VSCode + VIM keybindings.
There's always just a slight bit of jank with vim and vim plugins that I just don't want to deal with.
No-Bug-242@reddit (OP)
fair enough
lcserny@reddit
"What are your options if you’re one of those but like the Vim editing experience?"
Umm, there is a Vim plugin that works beautifully without any config for most / all major IDEs.
No-Bug-242@reddit (OP)
that's very cool
EliSka93@reddit
VIM is not better.
It's the Linux of IDEs. Potent if you're proficient with it, but a hassle to get there and it requires more work than most people are willing to invest.
divad1196@reddit
I guess it's not so much "more work" as people expect.
I personnaly didn't use much IDE features in VSCode except: - syntax highlighting - ctrl + click (go to definition) - ctrl ( + shift) + f (find/replace) Maybe a few others using ctrl (+shit) + p for running commands like "sort lines". I know some people will need git integrated (lazyvim), maybe a debugger as well. But other than that?
I installed lazyvim (astrovim/lunarvim would have been good as well) and it was quite easy to learn, easily found all features I regularly used in VSCode. Now I switched to qwerty keyboard and I am fully in it with tmux. (I sometimes cheat as I still have the mouse available if I want.)
granadesnhorseshoes@reddit
Emacs is the linux of IDEs. Vim is the BSD.
cyborgamish@reddit
Vim is not better ! It’s improved. badum tss i’m out
No-Bug-242@reddit (OP)
touché
Suspicious-Web2774@reddit
In the last picture it literally shows that end result is the same compared to modern ides, why vim then?
No-Bug-242@reddit (OP)
the last picture, the "xp" axis is relative to the software you're using.
but your question is very legitimate, for me, the main reason is actually, fun.
I use neovim, because no other IDE give me that fun experience of just playing around, trying to figure out interesting editing patterns, seeing what other users are up to. it's just a cool and fun open-source software with a great community to support it