Video Game Developers Are Leaving The Industry And Doing Something, Anything Else - Aftermath
Posted by zxyzyxz@reddit | programming | View on Reddit | 375 comments
GAELICATSOUL@reddit
Work enterprise and live frugally. Save up to take a sabbatical to work on a passion project you've worked on as a hobby that shows promise. Get back to work before the money runs out. Rinse and repeat.
GimmickNG@reddit
How do you deal with explaining the absence on your resume when taking a sabbatical?
GAELICATSOUL@reddit
Don't call it time you haven't worked. Because you have been working on a project and developing and maintaining your skills. Emphasise that part. If you manage to release something, no matter hiw poorly it performs you don't have a gap at all, but even without that you will have learned a lot.
mpanase@reddit
If those I know in the industry are anything to go by... they hate the industry but they love videogames and they won't leave it.
Abusive relationship at it's finest.
zxyzyxz@reddit (OP)
That's why salaries are so low in video games compared to other tech industries, there is a basically unlimited supply of fresh faced programmers wanting to work in video games, because it's "fun," compared to enterprise software which is "boring," no wonder video game companies exploit that fact.
Matthew94@reddit
zxyzyxz@reddit (OP)
Well, it's not that redditors are learning this fact, obviously they know how supply and demand works, it's the article itself implying how it's a shocking thing.
Matthew94@reddit
I would not agree on that point.
A lot of people have a very naive view of how salaries are negotiated. There are endless posts on here to the tune of "X works hard, why should Y get paid more?" when anyone with half a brain knows that effort isn't the core determining part of your salary.
MaleficentFig7578@reddit
If it's a meritocracy then it would be. So it's not a meritocracy. Lots of people believe it's a meritocracy.
Matthew94@reddit
Wrong. Even if it was a meritocracy, someone could be more productive than everyone else while putting in much less effort.
It largely is when you have an appropriate definition of merit.
EveryQuantityEver@reddit
I don't really think you can claim that any part of tech is really a "meritocracy", especially with the way women and marginalized groups are treated.
zxyzyxz@reddit (OP)
It's not perfect but yes if you are worse than your coworkers, you'll get PIPed and fired, so in that sense it is more of a meritocracy than something like the finance or film industries which can depend on who you know, the old boys club and all that.
EveryQuantityEver@reddit
That's not really true. Especially given the latest rounds of layoffs.
zxyzyxz@reddit (OP)
How is that not really true? Have you worked in finance? Yes layoffs suck but generally speaking, getting fired is harsher in tech.
EveryQuantityEver@reddit
Because it's not true. The idea that tech is any kind of meritocracy has absolutely no merit whatsoever to it. If that were true, then you wouldn't see things like Google appointing someone to lead Search who specifically made the Search experience worse.
Matthew94@reddit
Trick-Interaction396@reddit
Agreed. If they pulled that shit at my company everyone would quit.
xmsxms@reddit
And yet the work is basically the same. Write some algorithm, write some tests, debug some crash etc... It's not like they are needing to play games for x hours a day as part of their job.
Deranged40@reddit
Honestly not all that similar.
I write C# for a living. Have for over a decade. I'm absolutely fascinated with how differently we do even simple things like loops in a game engine such as Unity (which also uses the very same C# language).
It's an entirely different paradigm of programming. Just about everything is based on the "Update" concept. Which (hopefully) will happen 60+ times per second. Which gives our entire game just 16 milliseconds to run its code before we start it all over again.
xmsxms@reddit
Yeah it's harder. I was trying to make the point that making games is closer to enterprise programming than it is to playing games.
SortaEvil@reddit
Unit testing in games (real, atomic unit testing) is basically impossible outside core libs because as soon as you get within a mile of gameplay, everything is reliant on the engine and games are, at their core, massive, chaotic state mutators, and my one simple seeming function is reliant on having a pawn to interact with, which means that I now have to bootstrap the actor system to do any meaningful testing on it... and even if I had infinite time and built an engine from "clean" principles that was fully atomized and unit testable, now perf sucks and the game is a slideshow.
As a result, integration testing and smoke testing are much more valuable (and practical) for the average game dev than pulling up a test harness and running nUnit... if you're lucky enough that your studio cares about testing and has any sort of test suite to begin with.
Geordi14er@reddit
Man, that sounds fun, actually. Pretty rare that I have to do any math writing REST services and doing database crap.
Deranged40@reddit
I highly encourage you to go download unity and try a side project in it. It's a ton of fun, and it's very different than what you might be used to.
mistabuda@reddit
Sure when you strip away all nuance it's basically the same. Making games is much harder than writing enterprise software mainly because you are chasing fun which is a subjective thing.
zxyzyxz@reddit (OP)
Also the mathematics and other calculations needed in games seem way more intense than general enterprise CRUD.
The-WideningGyre@reddit
As is caring about performance, and honestly doing something new and/or interesting.
I started in games, and moved out, but it was definitely interesting and challenging work.
mistabuda@reddit
Yea it's a completely different beast
tidbitsmisfit@reddit
software devs need to unionize, worth more than there salary by far
Geordi14er@reddit
Speaking as a software engineer... no fucking way. Software developers in the US get paid extremely well, and have incredible mobility in their jobs and career. Unions would fuck all that up. We have a junior dev on our team, and even though he only has about 18 months experience, he's awesome and we're promoting him to senior and making him a team lead. That would never happen in a union, it'd all be seniority.
EveryQuantityEver@reddit
Compared to how much value we bring, not really.
Which could always be better. And that mobility isn't perfectly distributed around the industry.
There's literally no evidence for that.
Again, literally no evidence for that. There is no reason that any software developer union would have anything to do with seniority.
youlple@reddit
It's one of the best paid 9-5s you'll find anywhere in the world and you can leave your work at work if you desire. No one with a salaried job gets paid what they make the company, that's just how jobs work. I'm definitely not saying that's right but it is kind of the basic idea of salaries. You get stable employment for a set, negotiated price and work for those hours.
EveryQuantityEver@reddit
And again, compared to the amount of value we bring in to these companies, we're not getting paid much.
I'm not saying they do. I'm saying that, given the value we bring these companies, we really should be paid higher.
robotrage@reddit
all workers deserve a higher share of the profit.
bnolsen@reddit
what if i don't want to join your union?
gammison@reddit
You submit the the arbitrary will of your boss when you take a job, why won't not accept the democratic decisions of your Co-workers.
If you don't like it, don't work there.
bnolsen@reddit
'democratic decisions of your co-workers'. that's not how it really works. my dad worked his career for the airlines. I'm well aware of the realities of unions. And working for the company towards company goals is much better than working for the union towards union goals.
zxyzyxz@reddit (OP)
Yeah I'm pretty sure most redditors have no idea what actual unions are like, they are just as corruptible as corporations, but now they enforce whether you can even get into the industry or not.
MaleficentFig7578@reddit
Democracy can be dysfunctional and autocracy can be temporarily functional.
dethswatch@reddit
you'll be told "this is a union shop- everyone has to pay".
squishles@reddit
if the union got legs it'd probably just increase offshoring, or visas.
dethswatch@reddit
yeah, and the areas I've worked have been hammered by h1b's from the start. They'll work for half the price. Quality is correlated, ime.
squishles@reddit
the quality isn't good but I think for a lot of these guys it's about the feel of having 10-20 guys in button down shorts and khakis having meetings and doing overtime constantly.
zxyzyxz@reddit (OP)
Unless you work in a right to work state
dethswatch@reddit
yeah, I don't think they'll end up solving any issues- we're very fortunate as it is, more regulation will likely only make things worse.
EveryQuantityEver@reddit
Then you go get a non-union job.
MaleficentFig7578@reddit
Then you start your own union with blackjack and hookers. Since your union is objectively better - right? - you have no trouble attracting devs.
panchosarpadomostaza@reddit
If you unionize the video game devs, yes.
The other devs? No.
FRIKI-DIKI-TIKI@reddit
Yep hell no, on the other industries, we do not suffer the same problems that game dev does and personally I don't want to finance them. Just stop working in game dev if you don't like it, web dev is full of half assed, bootcamp programmers game devs would be a blessing if they jumped ship and brought some real programming chops to the industry.
josluivivgar@reddit
you do not suffer them YET.
the tech industry in general is changing, the sooner people realize this and unionize preemptively the better.
FRIKI-DIKI-TIKI@reddit
I have been in the industry since before the web existed, I went thru the .com boom and bust, I have seen far worse than you are seeing now.
josluivivgar@reddit
It's definitely less bad in terms of crashing, it's not crashing, it's more controlled, more of a power move from companies, sure they might not succeed in keeping the market like like that, and sure a small subset of developers might still enjoy the great benefits, but for the average developer, stuff is not going to go well soon.
it's not like it won't be jobs available, and it's not like they're gonna be paid waaay less, it's just the working conditions will become worse imo, and that's not necessarily a good thing regardless.
I can say I don't care I'll just be one of those that are still comfortable, but that kind of thinking is what hurts so many industries in general, and maybe you will be the expendable one some day, you never know how life can change.
SimpleNovelty@reddit
I think the thing is that if you are an above average software engineer, you're going to be able to land the high paying jobs that don't need really need unions because it's so much easier to just hop jobs. The marketplace is competitive enough that job hopping is the way to move forward if your company won't. If the job "meta" ever moves away from just changing companies then maybe unions would be more popular, but if my job isn't keeping up in pay I might as well just jump ship to another company and get the pay raise (and can even join back in 2 years with another raise, seen it done many times).
josluivivgar@reddit
I understand where you're coming from, but the I got mine mentality is such a big trap and let's the industry deteriorate.
yes you can job hop and get more money and get treated well because you're essentially renegotiating terms.. but over time the conditions can deteriorate and suddenly there might be no place that doesn't have a red flag, that either doesn't pay well or treats people poorly.
maybe you'll get to retire before it happens, but it's happening, obviously the economy is helping with this, but companies immediately jumped at this because they don't want the conditions to favor developers.
anyways, making unions would be a preemptive thing, I agree with that, but I think it's better to do it now than when the conditions are not in our favor
SimpleNovelty@reddit
It's hard to be proactive because you'd need to stay in 1 spot to start a union movement, costing you potential money by just swapping jobs. It's not effective for the people getting top dollar; it has to start from the ones who are "stuck" at their company and would benefit the most. There's not going to be a movement from the workers who are satisfied or can just move on if they are unsatisfied.
josluivivgar@reddit
right, I get that, except you don't know when it'll be your turn to be stuck, or there just might not be anywhere better to move to.
right now it might not be an issue, even with the market being what it is, you can still find a job in a reasonable time-frame, but my point is that the way things are trending it's not entirely positive for developers, even the ones that right now have no issue moving around
zxyzyxz@reddit (OP)
Yeah most game devs are in similar situations that make unionizing nice, but other devs unionizing might just make it even harder to break into the industry or move up. Imagine your level being seniority (as in how long you've been at the company) based, lol.
aa-b@reddit
Not all unions force companies to be so dysfunctional, though it has happened. The good ones work to ensure evaluation standards are transparent and consistent, so employees are judged fairly on their performance without prejudice.
zxyzyxz@reddit (OP)
Unfortunately that's more idealistic than anything, from what I've seen via family in other industries. Ultimately, organizations over time will tend to look out for their own power over that of those they ostensibly represent, corporation or union.
EveryQuantityEver@reddit
I would actually have say over how the union is run. Not so for the company.
zxyzyxz@reddit (OP)
Maybe yes, maybe no, depends on the structure of the union. Usually senior interests are entrenched over junior ones. However, they have their own drawbacks too. There is no free lunch.
aa-b@reddit
Sure, any organisation can go bad over time. Still, historically unions have done a lot of good, and they're at their best when the companies in an industry are behaving badly.
zxyzyxz@reddit (OP)
Sure, but most of the advances that people tout were made 100 years ago, I don't know many great advances made in the last 20 or so years, especially as the world advances and the technology sector especially has become more prevalent. In games with crunch, yes they absolutely should unionize if only to prevent that, but I don't see any advantages for regular tech workers.
accedie@reddit
Even with unions completely diminished in English speaking countries (they have a much stronger presence elsewhere, even Quebec) unions consistently result in higher wages in industries where they are present, even for non-union members. The decline in unionization has also been estimated to account for anywhere from 1/5th to 1/3rd of wage inequality growth in the US since the 70's. While that is primarily among low-skilled workers (and men given the time period analyzed) it still shows that unions provide tangible benefits, despite the best efforts of anti-labour politics in north america to completely neuter them.
Typically in countries where labour policies are reasonable, unions have a seat at the table for forming policy and will negotiate with both the state and their employer. However in English speaking countries the only leverage unions have is withholding the labour of their members with a strike. That is a nuclear option and should be considered a last resort, yet it is the only tool available to unions in English speaking countries and this results in much worse bargaining efficacy. They are unable to raise small issues until problems boil over and then they are stuck negotiating a boatload of things with immense pressure to get a deal as soon as possible, meaning only the biggest ticket items will ever get addressed and even then not reliably.
TLDR: unions could be great but we keep them shit, there are plenty of examples of unions being incorporated into the legislative process successfully
josluivivgar@reddit
yeah before unions got gutted in the US and basically companies get to dictate how everything works.
the tech industry is changing right now, I'm not sure devs will be treated as great as they have in the past soon.
companies are desperate to have more leverage on developers from RTO's to pushing AI to replace them even when it's obviously not there yet.
they're trying to make developers have less power and that means in the future more exploitation of developers.
it's not a bad time to unionize, it's always better to do it sooner than letter, and at least now we see hints of companies trying to stop the preferential treatment of developers so at least we can acknowledge the risk if they succeed
aa-b@reddit
Yeah it sounds like the game companies are treating devs relatively badly, and unions could help.
zxyzyxz@reddit (OP)
Yeah that's basically what I said in my initial comment in this thread.
aa-b@reddit
Yep I know, and I agree with you!
MaleficentFig7578@reddit
Still, if the choice is me vs an organization, or my organization vs their organization, one is more fair.
Chii@reddit
It's the same in the entertainment industry too. Lots of fresh faced actors and musicians looking to make their mark, but most are just exploited.
This is why you shouldn't be pursuing passion under someone else's budget. Work at a "boring" place, to gather money/capital, and when you have enough, self-fund your own passion project.
dagopa6696@reddit
Sounds good in theory but it doesn't really work. All you have to do is look at all the corporate drones wasting their lives away in some Peter Drucker hellscape only to be laid off and penniless moments before their retirement.
Kishana@reddit
What are you on about?
First, in the corporate world, you frequently make significantly more than in the games industry. Second, you make it sound like it's a grueling experience. In not-Amazon/Meta/Google jobs, you're typically working 40-50 hours as a junior and if you land the right senior job, with good time management and relationship management, you can make solid money working even fewer hours. I'm making ~150/yr without taking stock into account and I work 20 hours a week on average. Frequently less.
It's wild that people spin this bullshit of "risk-averse cowards" and yet we'd lose our minds if someone quit their day job to write a novel or a screenplay without any real world experience.
dagopa6696@reddit
Take a moment and read the actua comments. We are talking about in general, such as actors and musicians, who refuse to become corporate drones of all types.
Chii@reddit
Each to their own, but this whole thread is talking about those artists/musicians getting exploited because of their love and passion for their art.
And you don't become penniless the moment you get laid off before retirement, because you needed to have been saving a large portion of your income (and investing it), such that you could eventually retire off it. May be even retire early, and pursue the dream. Of course, this works better for some than others.
dagopa6696@reddit
You'r getting into a very complex issue. Artists and musicians aren't necessarily being exploited by a "boss". They are being exploited by record labels, art galleries, monopolists like Ticketmaster, etc. If you pay $8 for a hot dog at a baseball game you're also being exploited, but it's not because you would be better off taking a corporate job and supplicate yourself to a self-interested douchebag manager.
The difference between being exploited by a boss and by some middlemen or vendors is that you can’t fight back against your boss, but you can push back against third parties. Look at what Taylor Swift did to regain control of her music. People who follow their passion often take an entrepreneurial path because they don't see a way to achieve independence or the kind of career they want in the corporate world. A run-of-the-mill corporate employee is deluding themselves if they think they're acquiring the negotiation skills or business savvy needed to navigate the marketplace on their own. Taylor Swift didn’t learn how to reclaim ownership of her work by spending years at a corporate job saying 'yes sir, right away sir' to her boss.
zxyzyxz@reddit (OP)
Basically the ethos of r/financialindependence in a nutshell, that's what I'm doing. Or at the very least, get a chill tech job and work on your passion project video game on the side, many successful game developers started off that way.
ComprehensiveBoss815@reddit
That might be true, but after doing 5+ years in enterprise and finance and making a lot of money, my soul is dead and I hate people.
zxyzyxz@reddit (OP)
I guess, better that than making comparatively much less money and having your soul be equally dead, if not more so, from all of the crunch in the game dev industry.
ComprehensiveBoss815@reddit
Yeah that's fair, luckily there are other options than videogames or enterprise.
LindenRyuujin@reddit
This is so true. There is a lot of pressure that if you won't do this someone else will. You combine that with the fact you care deeply about what you're making and it's an easily exploted industry (and I worked at some great companies, with technical and invested owners and still saw this).
I ended up contracting after two companies I worked for were shuttered in less than a year (and a third closed after I interviewed but before I heard back). It was a revelation. Less stressful, nearly double the pay and my opinion was valued. It feels so good to stop worrying about work when the day ends. A lot of my identity was tied up in being a game developer, so it took some adjustment, but I'm much happier now that I have left games behind (and that just makes me sad for the industry).
Just_Farming_DownVs@reddit
How did you entry into contracting look like? Curious as I'm wanting to start in a different industry.
LindenRyuujin@reddit
I only contracted briefly (for about a year, my original plan was to use it as a stop gap until I could get back into games), I'm back as a fully time employee now (although still outside games as you might have guessed) so I'm not expert.
My route was talking to a recruitment agency. They had a much better feel for what other roles wanted and I ended up interviewing for jobs I never would have applied for myself (or known how to find). My C++ skills have opened quite a few doors as it's a rapidly disappearing skill outside of games and there are still plenty of legacy systems that use C or C++. I used an umbrella company to make getting paid and paying my taxes easier so I never had to look into setting up as a limited company or anything I'm afraid, which would have been the next step I think.
josluivivgar@reddit
also because all C++ positions require AT LEAST 5+ years of working experience.
even if you're familiar with C++ there's almost no entry positions, and for someone that has experience but didn't work on C++ it's basically just as hard, there's very few avenues of entry except while you work on something else slowly learn and contribute to projects in C++ in open source for 5 years
it's a closed club where only experienced people get to play
LindenRyuujin@reddit
One thing I have picked up changing areas is that it's often worth applying for things even if you don't quite fit the bill. Particularly if it says "The Ideal Candidate" - they're not expecting you to match every criteria nessessarily. I think you'd be supprised. From what I've seen there are very new people of any kind applying for C and C++ jobs of any kind (even fewer for Objective C).
You might have to brush up on memory management practices if you've only been using C++ 11 or newer. There's very little use of smart pointers before then in my experience, and a lot of legacy code is still running old version of C++ (although as someone rapidly becoming an old foggy I tend to default on manual memory management myself, particular with a games background. I guess I'm part of the problem now).
Just_Farming_DownVs@reddit
I appreciate the insight, technical recruiting is definitely the way I'll be going!
name-is-taken@reddit
Not the original Replyee, but was also a SDEV contractor in the boring but reliable side.
Find a tech Recruitment agency. I had a good experience with TechSystems for about 10yrs, but ymmv.
Lots of Government contracts out there that run on 2-3 year loops, lots of other businesses doing niche industry work.
Just_Farming_DownVs@reddit
I appreciate the insight, definitely gonna be the direction I move.
Buckus93@reddit
I have a friend who did an internship for a game studio, uh, about 15 years ago? Anyway, they paid him $10/hour.
jumbohiggins@reddit
Mind speaking about how you switched? I'm a pipeline dev and considering switching but all my experience has been in games.
gopher_space@reddit
All of the backend roles are open to you if you know how to talk about your work. You're a senior engineer with a ton of backend, CI/CD, and cloud experience. Everyone has work for you to do.
jumbohiggins@reddit
I haven't touched much cloud only a bit of AWS.
I mostly work in Python.
gopher_space@reddit
It's not the individual technologies, it's that you understand the entire process. The hardest part of these jobs is operating within whatever janky build setup they've come up with, and you won't need as much training in that area.
Paste your resume into a LLM and then ask it to draw parallels to a backend engineer job posting that you add.
jumbohiggins@reddit
Thanks I'll start looking into that.
Lv_InSaNe_vL@reddit
Look for "DevOps" or "infrastructure engineer" (my technical title), those are some of the keywords i used to find my job. I come from IT so its a little different but i had a ton of experience scripting and automating stuff (although I had some experience with CI/CD things, but just from some hobby tinkering on my GitHub) which leans really well into managing dev pipelines and stuff like that.
jumbohiggins@reddit
Awesome I'll look into that. If you don't mind me asking what is the salary range for that kind of position? You can dm me if you don't want to mention publicly. I know games generally gets away with paying less.
Lv_InSaNe_vL@reddit
I dont want to give away too much info so I don't get doxxed (even though I'm sure if someone really wanted to they could piece together my post history), but I'm currently making $76500 which puts me very firmly into the middle class in my area. Like I have a house, a daily and project car, and I'm working on my pilots license kind of middle class.
LindenRyuujin@reddit
I talked about this in another reply below (more generally about contracting) but in terms of tech, I started out with a jump to a company with a legacy C++ product they were upgrading. I ended getting a permanent position there. I moved around a bit internally (ended up working on AR project in Unity! Another time my games background played out unexpectedly in my favour).
From there I got quite a bit of mobile experience and now I'm working on Mobile Security. I never expected to end up here, but if you can find a good recruitment agency I think that can really help with changing sectors. The agency I used had a much better feel for what other roles wanted and I ended up interviewing for jobs I never would have applied for myself (or known how to find).
Necessary_Rant_2021@reddit
Can you pm me the agency, i have a decent amount of experience in Android but i hate the application process
Yuzumi@reddit
Basically. I wouldn't be opposed to working on a game of some sort, but I made the decision before I even went to college that I did not want to work in the games industry. Even from the outside it seemed like a constant crunch time for less pay and appreciation.
I'd much rather have a boring job that pays the bills while not being overly stressful to something that would result in burnout and probably kill my enjoyment in games.
Though, at this point I don't think the skillset I got while working would translate to game development anyway.
mistabuda@reddit
Depends. If you write REST Apps some apply. A lot doesn't.
For example using a DB even if its something local like SQLite doesn't seem to be popular when talking amongst game devs on here and some would rather just use csv files. Or using JSON for stuff like save data even tho one would think JSON is the perfect format for that.
SortaEvil@reddit
Honestly, binary blob data is better than JSON for save data ― it's more opaque if you don't want players messing with their save files, it's more compact, and it's quicker to serialize if you just have to dump memory to a hard drive. There's no need for it to be easily visualized and human readable for anyone outside the development studio, so bringing a JSON parser into the engine isn't really a priority.
The same applies to game data going over the wire ― we want small packets that we can transmit quickly above all else. There's no time to use JSON, we want to fire tight UDP packets over the wire and forget about them. Non-time critical network calls can be a different story, though ― you might actually see JSON (or something JSON adjacent) used in, IE: a matchmaking query, sent over TCP, because we've got time to format our message a little prettier there.
And on the other side, we generally don't need a complex DB for anything that we're actually reading/writing clientside, so things like settings can be dumped into a csv or a cfg file. 90% of the time, we're reading everything from the config file anyway, so having a queryable database is overkill.
TurboGranny@reddit
Honestly, I find it hard to make the math work in most of the games industry. In software, you have a ton of business to business licensing/subscription fees that give you a solid predictable revenue base with which to compensate talented developers. In video games, it requires a mountain of work for often a one time purchase price from regular consumers and even then you don't know if people will even like your game. Plus there are so many games that you have to spend a mountain of cash on marketing and anything and everything that you can use to help relieve some of that pressure wants to charge your dev team business to business licensing prices. I have no idea how anyone is supposed to survive in that business unless they are building a continuous development game with a subscription fee like WoW.
SortaEvil@reddit
AAA games is a very hit-based industry. AAA games are expensive to make, but a hit game can make a boatload of money. There's a reason that every Activision studio over time became a CoD support studio ― even before the microtransactions and live-service layer, the game printed money and if you have one or two games that print money like that, you can have a few flops from your other studios. Of course, you could also just stop making other games that may or may not be big, and then you can print more money, which is the route Activision eventually went for.
But as AAA games have gotten more and more expensive to make, publishers have become more and more risk averse with them. Which is where you start to see smaller studios going for AA games, which can still look great thanks to Unreal (Think OG Hellblade). A team of 20-50 people can make a really solid game with a great look for a fraction of the price of AAA dev.
zxyzyxz@reddit (OP)
Microtransactions
stult@reddit
There is something soul crushing about spending your entire life optimizing the "Edit" dropdown widget for Excel
FRIKI-DIKI-TIKI@reddit
I used to work in simulation, right at the beginning of the .com boom, half of my cohort that I started with went into web dev, the other half into game dev. Everyone of those that went into game dev regretted it when they hit their mid 30's, actually wanted to make more money and found that the fresh faces limited their upper end. They had only one choice, leave the industry or jump to management.
Those that left and jumped to web had lost precious time because the .com bust came shortly after. Those that jumped to management just became hollow shells that hated their job. Game dev is a battlefield that leaves carcass of your bright eyed developers hopes and dreams stewn among its landscape.
It sucks because I personally find it far more interesting work, but I chose web dev at that critical juncture. They were making double what a game dev was, and I work for money.
People that say do what you love, miss the second piece of advice, which is do something you love that is lucrative.
clubby37@reddit
When I was a kid, there was a "take your kid to work" day, and I went with my Dad, because my mom worked in schools, and as a kid, I went to school every day, so it wouldn't have been special. Dad was a biologist, and all his coworkers said they wish they'd done biology as a hobby and gotten a different job. I asked something like "aren't you supposed to do what you love?" and a guy replied "if you love something, don't let it become about money or survival, because when you have to do something you love, it chips away at the love." They weren't making a ton of money, though. If it'd been lucrative, they might've had different advice.
booch@reddit
Meh. I am a software dev. I love software dev. I love money and try to get more for being a software dev. But that doesn't stop me from loving software dev. If I won the lottery today, I'd retire... and develop software. I just wouldn't have someone else telling me what to develop.
SimpleNovelty@reddit
Yeah, there's a big difference in being in the field you like and being directly involved in the subject you want to. I'd probably have less fun writing logic for childrens games than working on hardware accelerators or game engines.
clubby37@reddit
Ditto for Dad's co-worker, except with biology instead of programming. Once it stops being about survival (read: obedience in the worksplace) then it can only be about the love, or you wouldn't do it at all.
Idiberug@reddit
Even within game development this is useful advice. So many indie developers make their dream game with no market research and have their heart broken when it flops because there is no audience. If you want to thrive in indie development, you have to think like a business and make what the market wants, not what you want.
Drogzar@reddit
You just have to learn to search good offers, know your worth and negotiate...
When I moved to London as a Senior Game Dev, I more-than-doubled my salary just by asking for that number. Hiring good people is expensive and hard... if they have a candidate they want, they will be very open to hear your numbers.
4 years later, in the same place, I had got almost a 40% raise because I was open with my manager and told him I was happy there... as long as I felt appreciated.
I was routinely receiving offers for 200K/year to work in fintech (like, I guess, half the software engineers in London) and ignored them because I would jump of a bridge if I had to work in fintech (for reference, 200k/year in London is an absolute crapload of money).
Juniors do get taken advantage in gamedev because there are a billion available and it takes a ton of effort to educate them (You need a lot of engine-specific knowledge or industry knowledge, to be effective) but experienced games people are worth A LOT more than webdev guys (relative to a junior), you just need to know your own worth and actually ask for it.
I'm currently a Lead Software Engineer in games and I'm making more money than the reported Glassdoor salaries of people in my same position in my country.
Also, I quickly google around, Tech Leads in games in USA are being offered 150-250K a year... including remote positions, so no need to pay insane rent... I think that falls well into "lucrative" for doing something you love?? Sure, it's not the half a mill you could make at Facebook, but fuck working in Facebook, lol.
Buckus93@reddit
Tell them that boring enterprise software not only pays more, but leaves them plenty of free time to play more video games.
mailslot@reddit
I was called directly by a studio engineering manager to try and recruit me for the most recent Alien game. The salary top end was nearly half of what I was making at the time… and I’d have to relocate to LA… and they weren’t offering relocation reimbursement… and I’d have to move within 30 days. No stock. No bonuses. lol. No.
Deranged40@reddit
Boring pays the bills. Fun is for the weekends. I have a few unity game projects. I'm awful at creating assets of any type though, so that's a massive hinderance.
But yeah, making video games are fun. But I'll keep my 15 years of professional software develompent experience as far away from the video game industry as I possibly can.
MaleficentFig7578@reddit
Notch was awful at assets and that's why Minecraft is a pixelated grid of cubes.
famousPersonAlt@reddit
things seem as dream jobs will always grind people. "It is your dream, now do what i say".
RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS@reddit
Well if you look at what these people say a lot of them have very game-specific skills like “narrative design” that aren’t actually applicable to another tech job anyway
mistabuda@reddit
I think the developers being referred to here are the ones that write code and not the "developers" that are not in technical roles.
RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS@reddit
I know but most of the people in the article aren’t software engineers.
MillerHighLife21@reddit
This is also just supply and demand at work. Economics always wins.
prof_cli_tool@reddit
I still consider doing it even though I’d essentially be a junior again just to go into a toxic industry where I’ll get paid less. But working on something that means anything at all to me sounds appealing.
krum@reddit
How about working on enterprise software in the game industry. Low pay and boring. The best of both worlds!
gelfin@reddit
I guess I’m just wired for cynicism, but the fact that I love games is the exact reason I refused to ever consider getting into the industry.
Point: “Do what you love and you’ll never work a day in your life.”
Counterpoint: Nothing will ever strip the joy out of your favorite hobby like making it your job.
Plus, the awful working conditions have been right out there for all to see for, like, thirty years. You’re going to get worked like a slave for months on end, practically paid like one, compelled to release something broken and disappointing far too early, and then you’ll be laid off. Nobody should love anything enough for that to be okay. That’s cult-level messed up.
If you love games, do something that affords you the time and money to play them.
cake-day-on-feb-29@reddit
That's dependent on the job and workplace IMO. I know plenty of people who got into doing or working with what they love, and they're generally happy aside from dealing with the occasional bad coworker or customer, which all jobs experience at some level.
palparepa@reddit
Because nobody is hiring.
torrent7@reddit
Can confirm, games are far less interesting after you've been making then for 10+ years. You spend more time admiring and deconstructing how things were created than actually enjoying the game.
literally me: "oh what a neat visual effect, let me go look at this siggraph paper where they described their technique"
nupogodi@reddit
Wait I do that and I’m platform dev, not in games
iiiinthecomputer@reddit
Aviation has quite a bit of this too, at least until you get to the higher and most professional levels.
Beli_Mawrr@reddit
Wym? Developing for aircraft?
iiiinthecomputer@reddit
No, screwing junior pilots because they want to fly so you can pay then peanuts for shitty working conditions.
DigThatData@reddit
I think this phenomenon extends to a lot of industries that draw people simply because they want to work in that industry. Another example is professional sports. Big sports franchises are insanely wealthy and capable of paying fat salaries if they wanted to, and are incentivized to hire rockstar analytic talent, but instead pro teams pay a pitance to their analysts because they can.
Maybe things have changed, but this is based on 2015-ish when I had a colleague in my MS math/stats program who was a former NBA player himself who had considered working in sports analytics, and was surprised how comparably poor the salaries he was being offered were. I think it was something like 50%-70% what he was being offered elsewhere.
mpanase@reddit
This reminds me of the pitch many recruiters/HR have telling me about how the company has just received so so much investment, so I should be really excited to join and get a pay cut...
B**ch... you just asked me to take less money because you got tons of it.
winowmak3r@reddit
I think with the recent successes by smaller indie developers and even solo acts we'll see more and more games get made that way rather than big AAA studios. I know more and more of my games library is smaller studios that don't have as much pressure from shareholders to make a larger profit every quarter. Allows them to focus on the games and it shows.
abraxasnl@reddit
Absolutely. I used to be a game dev. The craft is great, but I don’t have a deep passion for games. I’ve never regretted leaving the industry.
Bbonzo@reddit
I used to hire game devs for a big studio and the amount of people from other tech industries with stable jobs wanting to get into game dev "because it's exciting and they always wanted to do that" was astounding. They simply didn't know what they were getting themselves into and had a very romanticized view of game dev.
root88@reddit
VFX people are trying to get into the video game industry now because it's actually way better off right now than their industry.
ZorbaTHut@reddit
I used to work with one of those! She joined our studio because she wanted a break from the busy world of making 3d editing software.
She went back to her old job in less than half a year.
I honestly liked working with her, she was good, but it's a tough damn industry and it tends to chew people up fast.
krum@reddit
I've been a programmer in the game industry for 25 years. I haven't even worked on a game team for over 12 years, choosing to work work on back-end stuff (think Steam, Epic store kind of stuff) since then instead. I'd love to get out, but I feel stuck. I'm not sure I could even get a job somewhere else without an actual pay cut.
theavatare@reddit
I did a master on games development and lasted 6 months in the industry:(
agumonkey@reddit
Very common pattern. Paramedics, nurses, teachers .. same traits.
What's sad is that the guys seems to be extremely good at their craft.. they could benefit a lot of places instead.
aa-b@reddit
Just over a decade ago Penny Arcade did a webcomic series about life as a video game tester, and they collected war stories on the site: https://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2011/08/10/the-trenches1
It looks like they've shut it down, but I remember the stories being really good. I was just starting out as a junior dev at the time, and it was reassuring to know my "boring" career had the significant benefit of not being rabidly dysfunctional, so that was nice
mpanase@reddit
All hail the glory of archive.org https://web.archive.org/web/20230318162404/http://trenchescomic.com/comic/post/9811
aa-b@reddit
Brilliant, thanks! That's definitely worth browsing, some fantastic content in there.
I guess it kind of undermines the thesis of the article. It was talking about how things have fundamentally changed in the industry, but from the outside those stories do sound pretty similar to the ones from ten years ago
ChallengeDiaper@reddit
I worked in the industry for many years. Best jobs of my career. I was also single at the time so that helped. I wouldn’t/couldn’t do it now with a family.
OMGItsCheezWTF@reddit
I was chatting about this with one of our devs yesterday!
He studied game development at college, wanted to get into the games industry, but quickly realised the industry penalises developers by playing on their love of games. "We can charge a fraction of what other software industries can because people will take it in order to make games"
You can do some incredible, amazing programming working on games, complex and deeply involved maths. In exchange you work under permenant crunch, 60+ hour weeks, thankless higher ups and for 1/5th of the wage of say a fintech firm where you're making boring CRUD APIs for 40 hours a week with almost no crunch and good benefits.
And once you've got your game out of the door the studio will be purchased and shut down by one of the 3 big publishers 30 seconds later, leaving you jobless.
Ultra_Noobzor@reddit
And they are absolutely right to do so. Games have been invaded by venture capital and the staff who actually build these games are being treated like absolute crap.
ogn3rd@reddit
This is all of tech. They got to games last. Theyve ruined the rest already.
g9icy@reddit
I've been trying to leave, but hitting a bit of a brick wall.
My skills don't seem to translate well, and have actually been told by one employer that "they don't hire from the games industry".
I scout job listings but I'm having a hard time finding what skills I need to learn that don't also make me fall asleep. At least games is interesting.
It's hard to say to an employer, yes I know React isn't on my CV, but after 15 years of programming in C, C++, C#, Powershell, Lua and yes, sometimes, even Javascript, I'm sure I can pick up React on the fly. They won't buy into it.
So the option is to take an enormous paycut. As a result, I'm now saving like a madman to make sure I can survive the inevitable (and hopefully temporary) pay cut.
BoredGuy2007@reddit
Interview with FAANG. They won’t care about any of that except Leetcode, which you should absolutely destroy with slight preparation with your background
shableep@reddit
As someone that has done both game dev and web dev, I would hire a skilled game dev in a heartbeat. I tell people all the time how much harder game dev is. Such incredibly talented people in that field hitting WAY above their weight. The complexity of 3d alone, and the incredibly need for optimization creates these fantastic developers. Whoever told you they don’t hire from the game industry is truly missing out.
One of the things that I find most frustrating about web dev is all the framework experience while lacking in programming experience. Sometimes it feels like the frameworks are doing a lot of work to make up for the lack of baseline programming experience in the web dev community.
I’d recommend picking up a couple frameworks works and making some demo projects to show companies. I bet that’ll help a LOT. Maybe take Svelte and React and make two different simple 2d games with them. You get to use your game dev chops and also show that you can easily adapt your skills to the popular frameworks that exist. Anyone that doesn’t hire you after doing that has lost their marbles as far as I’m concerned.
g9icy@reddit
Thanks, great advice.
evasive_btch@reddit
I love recruiters and HR being less than a glorified string comparer.
Fucking retards
g9icy@reddit
Honestly yeah, that's how it works.
I got turned down for a job recently for not having enough mobile game experience.
I have 15 years of AAA and AA game experience... what part of that means I can work on a mobile phone game? It's insane.
bluemaxmb@reddit
It might, I've spent a lot of time working in small indie sized studios and AAA devs tend to be kind of inflexible, slow and hard to work with. They seem to be mostly used to very siloed work where they don't have to think particularly large picture. This is not the case for all though.
At the same time, I'm getting rejected for jobs because I've only been using Unreal for the past 8 or so years and found the rare places still using Unity and since it is a total buyers market companies can afford to hold out for the exact specific person they want.
g9icy@reddit
Interesting, most of the jobs I see are Unreal based, which I have very little experience with.
Kinglink@reddit
To be fair, mobile games, and AAA are VERY different beasts.
Can you learn it? Yeah. But I think the real fact of the matter is stupid companies don't hire the programmer, they hire the skills. They want you to already be exactly what they're hiring, and they don't realize that doesn't help longitivity with a company, and also if they're buying you as X programmer, they're paying for X as well as the search for it.
Ranra100374@reddit
I really about this about hiring because once you've gone into a certain subfield, you're now pigeonholed into that subfield.
Kinglink@reddit
I will understand it to an extent, If I hire a gameplay programmer who never worked on graphics as a graphics programmer, I'm getting a "junior" Where as if I hire someone who has done graphics for 3-5 years, I should be getting an established programmer who knows some of the intricacies of it.
But as a Network (gameplay) programmer, they don't even want to look at you for generalists slots. WTF?
Ranra100374@reddit
Yeah, this is what I'm talking about. Like if you know Java, you should be able to work on C# and vice versa. But no, they want someone who has the exact skillset.
Kinglink@reddit
He does C++ but clearly he doesn't know C. REJECTED!
acdcfanbill@reddit
Where's his classes?! He can't program without his classes!
Kinglink@reddit
Or the other way.
"Classes and templates will only confuse his puny C mind."
SortaEvil@reddit
To be fair, a sufficiently complex set of templates will confuse anyone's mind.
Kinglink@reddit
Hell just give me enough Macros and I'll stop digging.
Yeah Templates are a bitch to unwrap, they might be a little easier than Regex, but only a little.
VoltairBear@reddit
It’s not recruiters and HR normally making that decision. I used to work as a sourcer (now I’m a dev) and the hiring managers dictate the requirements.
I had one CTO tell me “If they don’t have minimum 2 years of experience with React, I don’t want to see them. I don’t want to teach someone React”
Xyzzyzzyzzy@reddit
All that tells me is that their company hires the sort of developers who need to be taught React.
Which, in turn, tells me that they either suck at hiring, or they pay crap wages, or both. Most likely both.
Kinglink@reddit
Or they suck at teaching it too/Suck at hiring people who can learn.
ScrimpyCat@reddit
Most likely this. Probably little in the way of proper onboarding. Like it shouldn’t take someone 2 years to learn React, they’re just using that as an excuse to not bother.
evasive_btch@reddit
Thank you for the insight!
cpt_justice@reddit
I remember comments on Slashdot way back regarding companies seeking experienced Java programmers with at least 10 years under their belts; Java had only been released like 2 years earlier.
EveryQuantityEver@reddit
You can make your point without the slur.
evasive_btch@reddit
You're right. For some reason, I have a hard time getting rid of it in my vocabulary. Sorry.
zxyzyxz@reddit (OP)
Reading this comment about this phenomenon is hilarious: https://old.reddit.com/r/csMajors/comments/1f8x5ma/world_record_rejection/llhpub8/?context=3
Matt3k@reddit
This is the kind of attitude I love. I don't care what languages you know, I care that you've worked with a lot of them for a prolonged time. I'm sorry that I'm not hiring at the moment, but I'd love to find someone like you. Don't give up.
Well, to be fair and at risk of angering the hivemind, React is kind of dogshit and anyone who has that as their primary skill, I'd be cautious of. I'm probably kind of an old fart in that way. Know the fundamentals and you can pick up the de jour at any time.
trcrtps@reddit
Sure, but if they can pick it up on the fly, why not just build a quick project and prove it? Why make a hiring manager guess?
bluemaxmb@reddit
You act like everyone has the time or energy to do a side project.
GrapefruitMammoth626@reddit
Interesting take, as software dev, if I was to jump into video games id have to take to massive pay dip as id be entering at entry level. I think the boundary exists both ways as there are indeed overlaps, but not enough?
Kinglink@reddit
One employer doesn't make everyone. Keep trying.
Look for Embedded roles. They usually want C and C++. Game industry personnel have a high level of skill at the low level.
If you want to go to the front end, learning React, or JS would be good, but if you want to be a backend programmer, well there's a lot of variants.
In my experience, good companies DON'T hire based on the programming language you know, they expect you to be able to learn it on their dime. But there's a lot of shitty companies that want to hire "cogs" instead of programmers, and avoid those.
Also work on your system design... One thing I experienced in the video game industry is there's almost every "Senior" programmer is not a senior outside of the industry, because they don't write design documents and don't know how to design a system. You can learn that, and that's the MOST important skill anyone can have.
Lewbonskee@reddit
What would you advise for learning systems design? Definitely a senior here who's only ever adapted legacy code, except for whatever fragments of UML I remember from school.
Kinglink@reddit
There's a decent amount of content on trying to get a job with system design, so that's a good start. I know I impressed one company because I dropped a sequence diagram on them, there's a few really good UML type of approaches that is worth at least knowing about. Being able to draw a state machine is critical in my opinion (again UML or some format, but it should be clear and understandable. Detailing the states, and decisions as well as transitions)
You probably "Do" system design if you're a senior, it's just you don't write it or review it. If you ever go for an interview and they go "design a X" try to do it with out writing code (at first), and that'll help you.
If you want examples.
Design a car parking lot, that has small, medium and large spots. Cars might be any of the three sizes and are assigned spots as they come in.
Design an elevator where you're trying to maximize the throughput. How about if there's multiple elevators.
Design a stop light. (What about left turn lanes, right turn lanes, what if no one comes in a direction.. what if the sensors broken)... and so on.
Design a rail road crossing, trains come infrequently, but they MUST not be required to stop except in an extreme emergency. In an extreme emergency how would you signal to the train that there's a car on the track.
Here's the thing though, none of these have a "Correct answer" no matter what anyone tells you. System design is about identify and coming up with trade offs. Do you sacrifice speed for safety? Are you maximizing utility? Can you discuss these in terms that make it easy for the other person to understand.
When you are writing official documents it will be more complicated but it's also something you'll have to learn as you go because each company's document will be different, if you at least can design the system before you write code/pseudo code in the meeting, you'll do well.
The bigger problem is you haven't actually done that too much at work. Just to go further, I tried to join a specific FAANG company 3 or four times as a Game dev, Always failed, but obvious I went back so I didn't do THAT bad.
Did 4 years at another company, got in first attempt after that. What changed? Well I could actually talk about my experiences AS a senior. Projects I actually lead, not by just by telling others what to do, but by getting buy in, writing the document, getting feedback, and evaluating the results.
Basically "not coding"... and that's the thing. as a senior, you code less, intentionally. You're designing, architecting, building.
Though I will say the smaller company still hired me and I passed their system design with flying colors, so ... it's not that hard, it's probably more that you're lacking the actual experience, than the actual skill to do it.
Lewbonskee@reddit
This was super helpful, thank you!
g9icy@reddit
This is true unfortunately.
Kinglink@reddit
I really wanted someone to argue with me on that... because I'd like to hear some studio pushed for system design and all, but I've been at enough studio and talked to enough that I have a feeling I could use "All".
g9icy@reddit
I have been part of good and pragmatic system design when I had the oppurtinity to work on a game engine completely from scratch, with no "legacy" code to deal with. It was refreshing.
But that experience was an outlier, the norm is that, unfortunately very little systems design happens beyond a quick meeting in front of a white board. Tech debt and lagacy code is so prevalent in the games industry it makes writing new systems hard, so you're usually just fitting code into existing paradigms whether you like it or not.
What we definitely don't do is document it like you would in a normal tech job.
SwitchBlade_@reddit
Speaking from (limited) experience, Hedge Funds and HFT firms absolutely love video game C++ programmers. The physics and math involved in fluid dynamics for video games and financial mathematics are very similar and a C/C++ background is perfect.
g9icy@reddit
My maths is "ok" enough to get by but isn't my strongest skills.
I'd need to put a lot of work in to get a job in FinTech, though I have looked into it.
SwitchBlade_@reddit
Fair! I still would give it a try though, lots of shops need core developers which is a less math heavy but still C/C++ role/
jl2352@reddit
My two cents is there is a big field at the moment of mixing Python with C++ or Rust. I would take a look at that. It's a bit of a niche, but a surprisingly large niche.
These places have a lot of Python, and can easily hire more Python developers. So they don't care about your Python skills (and you can be honest if your Python knowledge is poor). It's the native side they need help with.
Although for greenfield development Python + Rust is where it's at.
ratnik_sjenke@reddit
Ignore people saying to put React on your resume and fake it. The front end JavaScript field is absolutely flooded right now, and you will end up fired if you try to fake the skills.
I would look at C# jobs, which especially in the Midwest are the easiest to land. Although depending on your current pay might end up in a pay cut unfortunately.
sebramirez4@reddit
the thing is it's not really faking if he actually can pick it up quickly which I believe he really can if he's done back-ends and javascript, though C# jobs do seem like a much better fit tbh.
jl2352@reddit
ehhh, I dunno. They would have to be hired as a senior developer if they have years of experience, and there is a lot more to frontend development than people think. I'd expect them to know a lot of that if they are a senior developer.
trcrtps@reddit
most entitled shit I've ever seen. Build a react app and prove it, then they won't have to "buy into it".
web dev isn't as easy as redditors and youtubers lead you to believe.
"Trust me bro, I know c++"
g9icy@reddit
Calm down, the original post even says "My skills don't seem to translate well".
I have done lots of web dev over my career, I know what it is and how to do it. I know Javascript and how to do backend work, I've written servers for apps in PHP (ugh), game UIs in Javascript (yes) and even websites for friends and family, but those things weren't released or don't exist anymore so I can't put them on my CV as "work experience".
I still have a first class degree in Software Engineering, and it's not like I don't have to dip into doing bits and bobs of web dev or back end as part of my job at various points. Whether it's a Jira plugin, or some new graph in some KPI tool we're using, or writing JSON to a game server. I once had to optimise CSS based animations for a game's UI.
The problem is, it's not something I can really put on my CV as what I have lots of experience in, but the reality is, yes I could pick up React fairly easily as I understand what problems it aims to solve.
You're right though, an employer shouldn't hire me based on the fact I know C++ alone if I want to go into web dev, they're very different domains and you solve different problems. I hoped my original post showed I was just a bit frustrated and being rather flippant, I'm not a complete idiot, I know how the world works.
The reality is simply building a React app and going "hey look what I made" isn't going to get me a job at the same level as where I am now, I would have to take a massive pay cut. Which is entirely reasonable, just not a nice reality to have to deal with.
trcrtps@reddit
very true. hopefully you can claw your way up pretty quick though. I don't doubt your ability. largely depends where you land
torrent7@reddit
If you're a gameplay engineer or engine developer, just apply to any native (c/c++) based job; there isn't much competition for those jobs.
Big tech is the easiest. You can also do games industry adjacent such as meta reality labs or Microsoft on a platform team (xbox or some windows team).
g9icy@reddit
I've done both, I'll take a look but rarely see C/C++ based jobs.
The added complication is that I refuse to work in an office, so there's that.
carbonvectorstore@reddit
That's going to be a wall, more than the game-dev thing.
Hybrids easy to find, but no-one competent who values long term knowledge retention and mentoring is going to accept senior engineers who are fully remote.
g9icy@reddit
That's ... nonsense.
I've had 2 full time jobs that are fully remote. I've worked from home for about 7-8 years.
I know devs outside of games who are fully remote.
I'm in the UK, perhaps that's the difference.
carbonvectorstore@reddit
I'm in the UK as well.
Funnily enough, I've spent more time in-office over the last couple of years than I did in the decade preceding covid. Plenty of companies have now learned the hard way how fully remote work burns down your codebase after a few cycles of people leaving and being replaced without in-person collaboration and knowledge sharing.
I've witnessed first hand how software degrades when both working and institutional knowledge is lost in a fully remote environment. That's why I won't work or hire on that pattern.
Fully remote is fine if you are working on projects where you can safely throw away the code after a few years, but the detrimental long-term impact it has on a technical estate is too severe for services and applications with complex business logic that need to last for a prolonged period in a more serious environment.
g9icy@reddit
We've released full games no problem.
I don't agree, personally.
SortaEvil@reddit
It sounds like carbonvectorstore's only worked for companies that went remote for COVID either expecting it to be a very short term thing that they didn't need to change anything for, or believing that it would magically work exactly the same as working in office without any policy changes to adapt to WFH. Fully remote can definitely work, and knowledge transfer shouldn't be an issue, but it does take some work to make sure that it works as naturally as in-office does.
g9icy@reddit
Yeah perhaps.
I work significantly better from home. I have ADHD so being in an open office is just distraction hell.
And I agree, if the WFH culture is there from the start, it does work. There may be less in person "banter" but if you make liberal use of team-wide slack/teams channels you can still get the "incidental" knowledge share etc.
I would rather quit the industry altogether than work in an office again. It's simply not something I'll ever do again.
EveryQuantityEver@reddit
But it doesn't. There's nothing about being remote which causes that.
split_t13s@reddit
Knowledge not being shared due to people leaving sounds like a separate problem. Ideally you shouldn't have such knowledge silos in the first place.
EveryQuantityEver@reddit
Given that, more and more, the "competent people" are demanding to be remote themselves, you're wrong. And given how RTO policies drive senior engineers away from companies, I don't think anyone can claim that those implementing them place any value on "long term knowledge retention."
obp5599@reddit
What a bullshit statement. As if asking people to drop their lives, and the lives of their loved ones to move to a location to have office "culture" is somehow better.
wildjokers@reddit
Everyone at my company is fully remote.
Zimgar@reddit
Yeah full remote might be the hard part but there are many jobs out there for C++.
As an example almost all the automated car companies use a simulation to train their AI on which is very close to a game engine.
g9icy@reddit
I've tried to get into this field actually, but their requirements are a little odd.
The car industry (in the UK and Germany at least) seems to think you need a degree in maths to be a good programmer.
While I get it, maths is going to be important for some automotive software, but I was applying for infotainment work, which I doubt requires much at all.
JesusWantsYouToKnow@reddit
Try looking in industries like robotics, avionics, and space. I've seen quite a few jobs posted recently looking for developers who are strong in modern C++ and understanding 3D rendering who can help develop simulation, visualization, and testing platforms for these industries.
torrent7@reddit
Yeah, fully remote would be a lot harder tbh. Good luck
18randomcharacters@reddit
If you can pick it up so easily, then do.
Build a demo site
thecaspg@reddit
Demo site or hobby project can help.At least it worked for me few times.
sebramirez4@reddit
Tbh if you know some javascript you can learn react in a couple of days, honestly you can deploy a web app in react in probably a single day but that's without going in-depth at all into server components or anything, just learn react.
CoreyTheGeek@reddit
Go get an AWS solutions architect certification and learn the nodejs/express/dynamo setups, lambdas, and CICD with Jenkins and terraform and that'll get you a job doing backend web apps
desiInMurica@reddit
Front end will bore you to death if you dealt with low level stuff. Backend might be fun
zxyzyxz@reddit (OP)
Just put React on your resume anyway, then get the job. Alternatively, work in backend rather than frontend or full stack since it seems like you know that side better. Fake it til you make it.
316497@reddit
That's only going to work for companies with rock-bottom standards. Any company who cares about their product is going to have senior developers interviewing you who will ensure you actually know React and all of the frontend tech that comes with it.
I have interviewed tons of "senior React engineers" who had "10+ YOE" with React on their resume, but then couldn't build a basic form in React in an interview. I assure you, "just put it on your resume and get the job" is not going to work if OP doesn't actually know React and FE development reasonably well.
zxyzyxz@reddit (OP)
That's not what I meant by "just," I meant to actually learn React and do a few sample projects, but when it comes to automated ATS scanning for keywords, yes you definitely should put React on the resume even if you've never used it professionally. Of course you have to pass the interview to get the job.
g9icy@reddit
Yeah I could do that. They will need examples of projects though, that's the problem. I could make demos in my spare time I suppose.
I could do full stack, might have a mess about over the weekend.
zxyzyxz@reddit (OP)
Make a project and show it off. And anyway, if you say you worked on it during your previous job, they honestly won't ask to show you the code, obviously because it's not "yours," but you can still talk about it.
Additional-Toe-9012@reddit
Geez. I’d hire you fast. I have devs who don’t understand performance or basic algorithms, just painful to work with.
zelphirkaltstahl@reddit
But are you a so called "React Developer" who limits their skills to one single framework? No? Ah-haha! Now they got ya! You didn't mention their buzzword!
anengineerandacat@reddit
Generally because it's true to some extent...
C/C++ won't translate into the web-dev space very well, totally different languages with totally different nuances / tools / etc.
You would be learning an entirely new set of skills on the fly and as such wouldn't pass most likely any technical screen without first taking a month or two to practice up and get very familiar with the technical stacks (do-able, and that's a very conservative estimate).
You know how to "code" and write applications, that's transferrable; but that's about it.
Gets worse if all you did was just write client-side logic as well... web-dev's and such have networking protocols to worry about, knowledge of some infrastructure design, etc.
Ie. How your HTTP request routes from A to B and all the parts in-between which could be totally new concepts to a game developer.
Lastly... web-dev is heavily asynchronous; concepts like promises, async/await, futures, etc. that game devs generally don't get exposed too as more concrete job-oriented patterns are utilized.
If all you did was game development... you have a lot of new things to learn to pickup; not saying you can't but it's highly unlikely you'll be a drop-in with any organization at the same technical level.
What I would do if I were in your situation is go and register for one of those web boot-camp classes, you know how to write code, you know how to develop applications, you just don't know the tools / stacks / paradigms.
These types of programs will essentially work more in your favor as an experienced developer gain knowledge in that space very rapidly for a very low cost AND give you a certification you can throw around as well (which won't sway me if I were hiring, but does help with recruiters).
ReDucTor@reddit
Many games are online, so lots of game devs have dealt with some level of networking, also many companies have various web tools used for dashboards and other things built by devs, plus lots of games need to interact with online services that are HTTP connections.
And if your in networking then you have probably got a strong understanding of network protocols including HTTP, in fact probably more so then alot of web devs, personally I've built custom tools for creating artificial buffer bloat to test HTTP downloads impacting game play traffic, different server side and client side throttling of traffic, everything from congestion control to packet pacing.
With future/promises this varies, I've had lots of exposure to them including implementing them in C++ for a game engine and using language builtin ones in other languages. On top of this many game devs have had experience with lots of different asynchronous approaches, we often build things to have an entire frame done in 15ms.
I've dealt with web dev off and on for decades, there is many highly transferable skills especially backend work, frontend a little less so but many UI people have dealt with tools which essentially put a browser in the game.
While the exposure level differs person to person, my experience of web dev related work in games isn't unique.
mogwai_poet@reddit
This actually makes some sense -- games programming has significantly different priorities/best practices than enterprise or web dev or embedded systems, and even if you try to keep that in mind, if you've been doing one kind of programming for a decade and suddenly switch to a different kind, it's easy to fall back on old habits.
torrent7@reddit
Oh, another suggestion. Take a look at medical imaging or the oil and gas industry. They do a lot of native development.
BradBeingProSocial@reddit
The other side of tech industry has recently decided they don’t want to invest in people anymore. They only want people who hit the ground running. Huge mistake, but anyways…
If there are only a few things missing from your resume, it wouldn’t be hard to learn them on your own. Just make up some system and build it
Temporary_Event_156@reddit
Do you think web development is easy? Would you hire someone who’s a web developer to work on a game that says, “yeah I have JavaScript, Python, node.js, SQL, worked with AWS, K8s, docker, terraform, etc. I’m sure I can pick up c# on the fly and make meaningful contributions to your Unity game?”
ThisRedditPostIsMine@reddit
You may want to look into the robotics industry, if there are any companies near you. I work in a robotics firm and some of our best engineers are former game developers who switched over. Particularly the C++, high performance programming and linear algebra transfers very easily.
g9icy@reddit
Good idea, I might take a look.
ThisRedditPostIsMine@reddit
All the best, hope it works out for you! It's interesting, I was thinking of taking the opposite jump and moving into games (on the engine side), but it doesn't seem like such a good idea now haha. We also don't have any game studios in Australia anyway. My coworker moved because he said it was just UE4 Blueprints and he got bored.
g9icy@reddit
Yeah I'd love to move to Australia but there isn't an industry over there.
Shame really.
Engine tech is quite hard to get into as well, if you haven't started from junior.
PuzzleCat365@reddit
Don't take the word of somebody in the games industry that does not want you to be hired at another company.
g9icy@reddit
To be clear I applied for a job outside of the industry but somewhat adjacent, ie an "app" but it had 3D elements to it, some sort of specialised 3D modelling app iirc.
They said they don't hire out of the games industry, which I found odd seeing as the skills would directly benefit the app they were making.
Forbizzle@reddit
That hiring manager is stupid.
Waterbottles_solve@reddit
I wouldnt think twice about this. Take the paycut, in a year you will be normal again.
OSBY_Glabay@reddit
I've been into software development for over 2 decades, and been writing games for about 15, from my own indie 2d engine to some big names, I love video games and they gave me so much over the years, but I also love to design and create software that helps small dev teams of 1 to 20 people do more and get more out of their time. Where I wouldn't turn down a job in the game industry, I would have more enjoyment making software for teams of devs
torrent7@reddit
Yeah, as someone who has left the industry I'll let people in to a well known but rarely brought up fact. The games people really love to play now and more so in the past were made with the sweat and tears of an overworked abused workforce. There's a terible underlying theme that if you enjoyed a game, it probably had a horrific crunch to get it at the quality people desire.
I hadn't heard the term death march until I talked to some of the people working on Halo... apparently it's a crunch (60-80 hour weeks) for over a year.
There's a reason there is a lot of AAA mediocrity these days - those studios have matured and people don't crunch like they used to. It's sad in multiple different ways.
cheapsexandfastfood@reddit
IMO the reason for AAA mediocrity is there are so many more devs on a game now, and this creates a huge problem for leadership to steer everybody in the right direction and still have good ideas percolate.
Doom had just 16 people on it including support staff. This is about the same size as the credits for Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon album. If they had 600 people working on it, is there any chance it could be good? Absolutely not.
There are still studios that can make great titles at scale but it will depend greatly on the quality of the leadership and game director to see if they can handle a large scale. There are very few who actually can. Even at from soft, if Miazaki isn't in charge it falls apart.
SortaEvil@reddit
It's not the size of the team that's the problem (well, not directly), it's the cost of the game making publishers risk averse. If you're spending half a billion or more on a game, you need to recoup costs. In order to recoup those costs, you need a guarantee that the game is going to sell gangbusters. So how do you do that? Fall back on known IP and known gameplay patterns that people love. The tradeoff is that you get shinier and shinier toys, but they start to feel vacuous and uninspired (because they are).
So, yeah, AAA games are derivative and boring because they're expensive to make. They're expensive to make because they employ hundreds of people to make the game over multiple years. They take hundreds of people multiple years to make because people demand that the games keep getting bigger and more detailed, which requires more time and effort to make the games, and therefore more cost.
cheapsexandfastfood@reddit
Sort of, nobody is approaching it from a mindset of "Hey we have half a billion dollars to spend... what IP can we flog to recoup it?". Instead it's more like "Hey this IP made half a billion dollars, how can we grow it? Can we make more?"
So the games have these huge budgets because they are sequels, not the other way around.
SortaEvil@reddit
We're saying the same thing ― AAA games are expensive to make, but in order to justify the price of a modern AAA game, you need a safe bet. Derivative sequels to proven series' are safe bets, so they are the ones that get greenlit for AAA budgets. You don't usually spend a half a billion dollars on a Hi-Fi Rush, because there's no guarantee that you're going to recoup costs and not just end up with a Forespoken.
SortaEvil@reddit
No, it's because people want shiny, big, open-world AAA games (or, at the very least, publishers think that's what people want), and big, shiny, open-world games cost a lot of money to make. So publishers end up being very conservative with what games they greenlight, because those games are expensive, and publishers aren't in the business of losing money.
evasive_btch@reddit
Lol, I do not believe you that that's the reason why AAA games are shit.
AAA games are shit because they are created with the monetization model in mind, instead of a good game mechanic.
obp5599@reddit
As someone in the industry the OP is completely correct. Game companies are respecting devs more, paying comparatively (despite redditors constantly blasting, with no actual knowledge, that this is incorrect), and crunching less. People not in the indsutry dont understand. Gamers are extremely demanding. Game requirements are higher than ever, people are not working as much overtime, and they are being paid more. This means its extremely expensive to make games now, so they come up with bullshit monetization to make up for this.
evasive_btch@reddit
Good to hear, thank you! I plan on switching to gaming industry at some point.
Brilliant-Sky2969@reddit
This is really a dumb view of how games are made, do you really think games are designed with monetization as the first goal? Most AAA don't even have any "monetization" plan
android_queen@reddit
I was with you until you said most AAA don’t have a monetization plan. They definitely do.
evasive_btch@reddit
Almost every AAA game comes out with loot boxes, skins, other micro transactions. They might have started with a good game mechanic at first, but then gut it by introducing Pay-Elements. I haven't played too many AAA games in the last few years though, that's just my observation.
mistabuda@reddit
This is an exaggerating the majority of AAA games are not that.
evasive_btch@reddit
I do like to exaggerate, sorry!
torrent7@reddit
Not really first per say, it is expected to happen in parallel with a lot of other work. It is definitely part of the plan up front though.
Think of a 100 page design document for the game and 10-20 pages are devoted to monetization. Someone is thinking of how to fill those pages very early on.
zxyzyxz@reddit (OP)
Yes? Lots of game publishers have explicitly stated that they want to focus on loot boxes, games as a service, etc. Many games start out with the monetization in mind and work backwards to a good game. Suicide Squad is a great example of this, where the reason the level and weapon design is as it is is literally to make you spend more time in it as it was advertised as a GaaS. Ironic, then, that now no one spends any time in it at all.
torrent7@reddit
Those monetization models are part of the equation. It's far easier, cheaper, aand sustainable to shove monetization schemes in a game than to focus on a player centric experience. When your salaried employees work twice as much (crunch) as what their nominally paid, games are a lot less expensive to make. The flip side of that is that is that if you cannot rely on crunch, your costs go up significantly, these costs must be gotten back somehow or companies will go under; enter extra monetization.
schmuelio@reddit
The monetization model (i.e. profit above all) is why their developers are treated so poorly. It's all about keeping as much money as physically possible.
Well, that and they keep hiring and protecting rampant abusers.
JarateKing@reddit
We've known for decades now that crunch is not sustainable, productivity-wise. It burns people out and people do shit work when they're burnt out.
It works out sometimes, but it's certainly not a recipe for success. The problem with Cyberpunk 2077's infamously terrible launch wasn't that devs needed more crunch.
torrent7@reddit
It's sustainable in the sense that there are always more post college grads trying to get in the industry than there are people leaving it.
It's [mostly] not sustainable on an individual level, hence the huge turnover.
So it depends on your POV. If you're a consumer, it's sustainable, if you're the person making the sausage, probably not.
obp5599@reddit
This is such a massive talking point on reddit but ive yet to ever see it be true. Turnover is not very high at the studios ive worked at. Unless something is seriously going wrong with a specific project
torrent7@reddit
Consider yourself lucky.
I won't say which exact game, but at MSFT, there was a major studio that about doubled in size about a year prior to release. Immediately upon release, the studio went back down and lost about half of its workforce due to layoffs and people quitting.
I quit a studio about 5 years ago and kept up with a number of people, apparently I was considered the canary and a large amount of the people I knew have since moved on.
JarateKing@reddit
It certainly happens but I think it's overstated in these discussions. Hiring people takes time and money. Onboarding new hires takes time and company resources, especially to an ongoing project. Training up new grads takes time and company resources.
You generally don't want to do this to any significant extent while the project's going, because productivity will suffer. So it doesn't immediately address productivity lost to crunch-induced burnout, you're still gonna have burnt out employees on at least until the rest of the project (unless you cancel it entirely, which companies obviously don't intend).
And there ain't much to say about that except we know it makes for worse games
torrent7@reddit
Just curious, do you work in the industry? I just don't want to seem condescending - I've never seen or heard of a company in the games industry worry about turn over or burn out. It's just expected and a normal part of the development process. If you have a number of critical senior or principal level engineers that are required to ship a game in the next 6 months or you start losing tens of millions of dollars keeping the larger dev team working, you don't care about burn out, you just want and need to ship your game.
Everyone is focused on the next 3-4 months, anything beyond that is just not very important. Good luck even having a discussion about tech debt.
JarateKing@reddit
I do. And I'm fortunate to work at a company where the worst of it might be the occasional long workday to get a release or hotfix out, but not exactly crunch and certainly no deathmarch.
The industry's pretty wide. It's certainly true that crunch is a thing in the industry, but it's not universal. You're right that, for a variety of reasons, timelines usually end up optimistic and to address it the most elastic input is gonna be how much hours developers do. But that's not a good thing, by any metric (certainly not for the quality of the end product). Some companies are better at avoiding that than others.
torrent7@reddit
Now I'm curious what company you work at ha! I should also have not used absolute terminology. The last company I worked at had well defined entrance and exit criteria for crunching which had to be approved.
I should have said it is very rare.
encloser@reddit
https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/death-march-second/013143635X/
The term has been around a while. It was so common, even outside of gamedev, that someone wrote a book about it.
Younger people may hate on Agile, but it effectively killed Death March culture in my fintech experience.
android_queen@reddit
Def hasn’t killed it in games though.
torrent7@reddit
Curious... Its exceedingly rare that games aren't developed with agile as the predominant development process, especially games as a service.
encloser@reddit
Agile is a double edged sword IMHO. Instead of 3 year projects with the last year being a death march, it can foster a constant death march in every sprint. But in my personal experience it has instead spread the "crunch" out to more acceptable levels instead of constant for extended periods.
IQueryVisiC@reddit
The far cry game engine is a product of crunch. Nobody uses it. Instead they use Unity3d, who never developed a game, or unreal, which was written by the owner at his pace (similar to id tech). Also: “blazing fast renderer” . Today games just add new skins for their yearly release. Or even continuous deployment. No new GTA, no man’s sky . Madden CoD FIFA
Vozka@reddit
If you mean the original CRYENGINE (which I don't think has been used for any Far Cry games), then that's an engine that's been used by some great games like Prey or Kingdom Come: Deliverance. It's always been more specialized than strongly generalized engines like Unity and newer versions of Unreal Engine, which may have more to do with why it's not used as much.
Bhraal@reddit
The first Far Cry was the first CryEngine game, developed by Crytek and published by Ubisoft. Between Far Cry and Far Cry 2 EA swooped in and signed a deal with Crytek to develop a new game using CryEngine (Crysis).
Ubisoft then bough the full rights to Far Cry, including a perpetual license for the version of CryEngine that had been used for the first game. Ubisoft started modifying the engine to make it work for the various console ports and renamed it Dunia by the time Far Cry 2 was released.
Both Crytek and Ubisoft have kept on developing their engines (although Ubisoft has said they are sunsetting Dunia), so I imagine they are quite different today even though they came from the same base code.
CryEngine is also the base of Amazon's (now deprecated) Lumberyard game engine, which in turn was the basis of StarEngine (Star Citizen) and Open 3D Engine.
schmuelio@reddit
Apparently the Far Cry engine is a "heavily modified" version of CryEngine, I don't know how much "heavily modified" means or whether you would consider that a different engine at that point.
Vozka@reddit
Didn't know that, thanks
BlueGoliath@reddit
When did Ubisoft make the Far Cry engine publicly available?
IQueryVisiC@reddit
Amazon and I think Star Citizen bought a Lizenzen to that engine before Ubisoft? Ubisoft bought the game name . So the next game from the original developers had to be renamed to Crysis.
BlueGoliath@reddit
You are thinking of the Cry engine.
syklemil@reddit
This is also somewhat related to other cathedrals humanity has built. It's generational work, where financing may come and go, and some managers/owners are more interested in building progress than they are in treating their workers humanely.
torrent7@reddit
Exactly. It's great to be the beneficiary of this work, less so to do the work.
bradwrich@reddit
As an avid player, I’m fine with the wait. GTA 6 was just postponed and my thought was, ok, it’ll be better.
I’m guessing the pressure isn’t from the players. It is from the investors. Monetization over entertainment.
PuzzleCat365@reddit
I recommend it.
That's why I develop video games as a hobby in my spare time and do the boring technical work for a salary. You earn double, have more free time and better a pension. Doing video games on your own is also more rewarding and interesting. You can set your own direction and work on it when you feel like it, not because you have to.
oneeyedziggy@reddit
And we'd be better off and get more innovation with millions of independent devs than with dozens of big studios and 3 giants
mistabuda@reddit
I dont think you understand how many bad indie games are out there. For every undertale/hollownight/spelunky there are thousands of not good games.
oneeyedziggy@reddit
i don't thin YOU understand the implications of your own statement.
if we had 10,000 terrible games, not only would that be amazing on its own (love me some terrible games)... but by your own reasoning, we'd also have 10x as many undertale/hollownight/spelunky...
more experimentation, more failure, yields more TOTAL right answers... but the big 3 are investor driven, and thus only driven to crank out more of the same... no experimentation, no innovation... just MORE and at a lower cost...
backelie@reddit
It's not a hypothetical or exaggeration. Steam has added 72,000 titles in the past 7 years.
https://backlinko.com/steam-users
oneeyedziggy@reddit
it was an example, relative to the previous person's example numbers... point being, if we 10x the number of ALL games, we 10x the number of shit games, but we ALSO 10x the number of amazing masterpieces
SortaEvil@reddit
Not necessarily; if you assume that people who are good at making games, by and large, are already making games then increasing the number of people making games 10x doesn't mean you'll definitely get 10x more good games as well, you'll just get a lot more bad games, with maybe a few gems that probably get lost in the noise.
oneeyedziggy@reddit
Why on earth would you do that?
SortaEvil@reddit
Because making good games takes skill (both in development and design) and passion. People who are passionate about game design, and people who have trained themselves on what makes a good game, are more likely to have already self-selected into indie game dev, and more likely to produce good results than the average population. So it doesn't make sense to see a linear increase in the number of good (and especially not great) games if you just increase the number of people making games.
oneeyedziggy@reddit
except for those who value fair labor practices and like being able to pay rent and eat food... the games industry is super abusive and suffers from only having the most passionate, rather than necessarily the most skilled employees... sure there's a lot of overlap, but there are probably more people who are highly skilled developers or graphic artists outside the games industry than in... it's not a fundamentally different discipline and uses a lot of the same software from the automotive and industrial design industry, the movie industry, scientific fields, frikkin' valve even hired an economist... Star citizen has taken devs who just to design real cars and planes, and people with real architectural chops to design their game world...
so, it seem absurd to assume most of the best game designers (and programmers and artists and project managers and marketing professionals, and writers) are already IN the games industry... maybe a metric crap ton of them they just have more self respect than desire to work on games even at the cost of being professionally abused...
maybe if game dev studios were less toxic they could pull from the huge breadth of skill in the rest of the tech industry instead of relying solely on (the best kind of) fanatics... and the percentage of quality content would go UP if the workers weren't in horribly oppressive conditions (well, as modern white-collar oppression goes )
SortaEvil@reddit
Except I thought we were talking indie dev, where none of the caveats about AAA studios abusing their employees would apply? Also, the quality of AAA games is much more dependent on restrictions such as "making back the absurd cost of creating a AAA game" than on the quality of devs and designers on the project. And while engineering skills are transferable between a number of industries, I'd argue that design skills are less transferable and that good and creative game design is a fundamentally different discipline than most other creative fields.
If you want to improve AAA games, the way forward is actually ditching AAA altogether, because billion dollar budgets are unsustainable unless a game is an iterative, nearly guaranteed success.
oneeyedziggy@reddit
what makes you think none of the caveats about AAA studios abusing their employees would apply?
indie doesn't even mean small... look at Annapurna Interactive for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDPzZkx0cPs&rco=1
maybe, but that's not really actionable... maybe push anti-trust law harder and break them up? unionize? but they also fulfill an admittedly large niche of games that rely heavily on high content generation... there ARE games only they can make... ( or unicorns of crowdfunding like the aforementioned star citizen, and it suffers the opposite of releasing garbage... never truly finishing anything as long as they can keep enough trickle of content to keep baiting players into supporting endless development )
backelie@reddit
You are asserting that we are in a bad situation because we don't have a shit ton of indie devs. But we do have a shit ton of indie devs.
oneeyedziggy@reddit
No... I'm asserting we're in a worse situation than if we had 10x more indie devs than we do...
If the big 3 studios hadn't bought up the vast majority of all studios...
Having room for improvement in no way implies an objectively negative current situation... You're choosing to read that in
backelie@reddit
Where are the 10000 new titles per year on Steam coming from?
We have massively more indie devs publishing games than ever before.
The big studios have bought up their closest competitors only.
Halkcyon@reddit
That's not a guarantee.
oneeyedziggy@reddit
you're the type of person who criticizes the presents your grandma gives you... aren't you?
stupid_muppet@reddit
where are you getting a pension, govt dev?
PuzzleCat365@reddit
Big ass boring company. People like to hate on those, but in Europe they're one of the best employers, most people worked their whole life there. Pension will cover 100% if my current salary without counting my own contributions.
stupid_muppet@reddit
that's a unicorn in the USA afaik
Halkcyon@reddit
It wasn't until the mid-2010s. Even my workplace still had active pension earnings as late as 2016? But now it's purely a thing of the past, or for workers who got lucky and vested their pension before it ended.
stupid_muppet@reddit
yea and i got my first dev job in 2018 -_-
AluminiumSandworm@reddit
damn wish we had something like that in the states
Matt3k@reddit
Pensions sound great on paper, but you're basically held hostage to a company for a lifetime. Want to keep your job? Get ready to move a thousand miles away and keep working for an employer you hate.
I'd rather just take a higher salary than be that tightly entwined with my employer.
gingimli@reddit
People are still getting pensions? Do you work in government?
ykafia@reddit
And you're not bound by time or money constraint, I decided to participate in the development of an open source game engine and I learned soooo much by just deciding I'd write a compiler for a shader language made for this game engine. It's fun and challenging and I'm not bored trying to do stuff
I wouldn't have enjoyed doing what I did if I was paid to make it work under a dead line.
ZorbaTHut@reddit
Honestly, this is a normal part of the game industry cycle. As other people mention, there's a lot of people trying to get in, but the work is hard and the pay is bad. When the industry has a bit of a downturn (i.e. the last year) a ton of people leave the industry to do something else and basically never come back. Then the industry picks up again and starts hiring fresh college grads again.
This isn't the first of such cycles and it won't be the last.
android_queen@reddit
Not to this extreme, it’s not. Yes, the industry has had a cycle of boom and bust, but this is an all time low.
ZorbaTHut@reddit
C'mon, we might have a debate if you said this was a low post-2000, but an all-time low? Absolutely not, not even close.
android_queen@reddit
Okay fair enough. There has been one worse crash, 40 years ago, when the industry was really just getting started. I think my point still stands. This is not the typical ebbs and flows.
njharman@reddit
100% expected after covid boom and over hiring.
android_queen@reddit
Expected and normal are not synonyms.
njharman@reddit
I know. But it is normal to expect bigger busts after bigger booms.
Your claiming it is abnormal. I'm saying it is not. It is the expected outcome. Given the recent history; completely typical ebbs and flows.
android_queen@reddit
Ok.
ZorbaTHut@reddit
It's not typical but it's also not that atypical. Combine the normal ebbs and flows with a bit of a covid-recovery-plus-Ukraine-war thing and you get something a bit worse.
I don't think this is really all that major - all signs suggest to me that it's already ending - and I don't think it'll even be mentioned in any but the most obsessive history books.
android_queen@reddit
I think three years of steady downturn is pretty major by any standard. The fact that there are other world events that have contributed doesn’t change that. Certainly it is significant to the 30k who have been laid off in that time. You seem to have raised the bar to “mentioned in the history books,” which is not usually how industry-specific events are judged.
ZorbaTHut@reddit
The history books include the history of the game industry. I think if it doesn't even justify an entry in there, it's not particularly relevant, and I don't think it's going to justify an entry in there.
There's a Wikipedia article for now, and I think it has a reasonable perspective; it's not even that it's layoffs, it's that this is a correction to the overcorrection during COVID, and a lot of this is return-to-normal. But even with that, it doesn't count up 30k, it gets under 20k.
android_queen@reddit
Yeah, I’ve seen the article. For some reason it doesn’t include the 10k jobs lost in 2022. There’s a lot of literature on this, not just Wikipedia.
I understand that over hiring during Covid is a big reason for this correction. That does not change the fact that it is happening.
I guess your high school must have been much more tech oriented than mine was because video games were never covered at all in our history books. It has historically a small enough industry that the ups and downs of it have only ever had a minor impact on the global economy. 30k jobs is tiny compared to the world. Meta laid off 20k alone in 2023. But it’s very significant compared to the size of the industry. So no, it probably won’t hit history books, and that is not a good measure of whether it is normal.
ZorbaTHut@reddit
And I guess this is also sorta my point; this is heavily not a game-industry-specific layoff, it's just a recession in general. It'll show up as a recession, and the game industry isn't immune to that.
Yes, it sucks for people in the game industry, but it sucks for everyone right now.
android_queen@reddit
Yes, it does suck for everyone. The only thing I pushed back on is your claim that this is normal for the industry. It is demonstrably not.
ZorbaTHut@reddit
Sure, I guess I'll rephrase that:
This is an unfortunately-timed interaction of normal game industry behavior and the rest of the world economy right now. It's moderately out of the norm but is roughly what we'd expect from a normal game industry cutback cycle hitting the same time as a recession.
Kinglink@reddit
What I find hilarious is the game industry sees the last year as "game industry downturn" and are talking about it as so. But really it's the entire tech sector's downturn, and the game industry was just a blip on that radar.
I think it's just they had it with the industry and are just using that as a single rallying point.
No-Butterscotch8700@reddit
It is also because sales have dropped because these games are being financed by entities that care more about forcing inclusion and diversity, instead of making an appealing and fun game.
Is a toxic environment for devs because they are getting the axe due something they don't have a say.
Dependent-Cellist862@reddit
Lol reminds me of a time I took 3d animation in highschool, the teacher saw potential in me and recommended I go study 3d animation at a local college. I told him I couldn’t do it as a job because the pay is low and you could do this in your personal time for free devaluing the skill. It’s been a decade already as a engineer, the niche I’m in is a growing industry, steady work life balance and decent pay. Although I like games and 3d, had I stuck to 3d animation I’d be filing applications competing with other seniors for just contract work lmao.
FloydATC@reddit
I play enough games to know that quite a few game developers absolutely should be doing something, anything, else than inflicting their work on games.
PatternNotRecognised@reddit
There are poor working conditions in this industry (especially at the AAA end), and audience reactions to games can be totally nuts, and it's good to be honest about those. But that awareness can sometimes turn into a crude characterization of all game devs as naive and exploited, which can then lead to a certain condescending tone from devs in other fields. Some of us are here by choice, you know?
I've been in game dev for most of my 15+ year programming career. I've worked AAA, indie and in-between, and I've mostly had a pretty great time - occasionally amazing, occasionally awful, but mostly really decent.
I do love games, but what keeps my interest isn't being a fan of the project I'm working on - it's the craft of making them. I'm a generalist who loves learning new things, squeezing performance, and managing complexity. I love the challenge and variety of building games - no other programming I've done has scratched the itch in the same way.
There are good and bad workplaces. I've been lucky to land in some good places, but I've learned what kind of environment to seek, and what to avoid. I don't think it's a coincidence that the bad times I've had were when I followed the money/prestige instead of my head and heart.
It's true that I could be earning more money writing code. But I earn an above-average salary for where I live, doing something that makes my brain light up, alongside people I click with. I don't feel naive for not chasing more!
maxinstuff@reddit
You have to understand that game companies are not in the tech industry.
They’re in the entertainment industry.
Go and write code somewhere where your skills are valued.
For >99% of people, art is a leisure activity.
WileEPeyote@reddit
I don't have any experience in the game development industry. Where do you think they put their value? From the press, it seems like the game designers are the "rock stars" of the industry. The development end of things (while critical) seems like a small part of what sells a game.
SortaEvil@reddit
Working in game dev, I can safely say that the money allocation is heavily weighted towards engineering, with art and design getting the raw end of the deal most of the time. Money allocation is also weighted toward the more senior end of the totem pole because, through the laws of supply and demand, there are a lot of jrs to choose from, and one junior isn't that much different from the next, but on the flipside, the industry grinds you out, so there aren't nearly as many seniors in any department to choose from, so they tend to get much better salaries.
It's true that, entering the workforce as a junior, you can get much better pay for much less work working in almost any other industry, but if you survive for 5-10 years, the salary difference becomes less massive, even if the work is still much harder in games.
The_Mad_Jackpot@reddit
I think a lot of game devs may not understand that there's still fun work in other industries. Just because the product itself isn't fun doesn't mean the work isn't fun. I love the puzzles and problems I get to work on, and I'm working on "simple" management software.
I love games, but it doesn't pay that well and the work itself isn't itself more fun.
elebrin@reddit
Just because the product itself is fun doesn't mean that making it will be.
What makes a job enjoyable working for good leadership, with decent people, and on a product tied to something that people either need or value highly while being well compensated and having good working conditions and good work life balance.
I am in financial tech, and the product we work on is not interesting, but I tick all the other boxes. The best part of my workday is logging out and not worrying about getting a call to log in and take a look at something.
android_queen@reddit
Maybe. But there are definitely a lot of folks like me who worked in other industries and discovered they’re not nearly as much fun.
zerexim@reddit
But they pay 60 bucks for such leisure activities. I mean, there is a money in entertainment.
FatStoic@reddit
You're right, there's a TON of money in entertainment - it just goes to the investors.
They know that it's people's dreams to work on video games, so they underpay and overwork them
Matthew94@reddit
Yes, shareholders are the ones setting employee salaries and working conditions.
elebrin@reddit
The majority share holders are the people on the board, and yes, they ARE setting those things. Or at the very least the CEO is working with his staff to set them, and the board approves it.
commentaddict@reddit
It’s called supply and demand. There’s just a never ending stream of young naive programmers ready to enter the hell that is the gaming industry. What they don’t realize is that they can get a much easier stable job that pays way better, and that they can make video games on the side.
JohnnyOmmm@reddit
You pay for leisure wym
FormerlyGruntled@reddit
The games industry staff need to realize, every big studio sees them as nothing more than contractors. When the game is done, so is the gig, and everything gets torn back down and new teams are made from people who aren't familiar with each other. The big publishers don't care, because all the developers from small companies want to go work for one of those big abusive names.
We're also in the middle of a VC dry-up period, so new capital for untested products is very slim, which is why so little new is coming out of the mainstream teams, and everything is regurgitated.
The real talent is found in smaller studios and indie development squads. Stop giving the spotlight to the abusers, start shining the light on the real gems so they can grow.
CoreyTheGeek@reddit
Yeah they found out they could go do web development for double the salary and work 30 hours a week in a non toxic company that won't lay them off before bonuses and dev games in their nights and weekends.
The game industry needs to die so it can be reborn.
ysustistixitxtkxkycy@reddit
Tech companies in general have gotten very excited in assuming that AI will take over the jobs of all those complicated developers and have been falling over themselves to get rid of people.
I have strong feelings about how we'll see this play out.
Mysterious-War-8520@reddit
The game industry was assaulted by wokeness and abusive managers. Extra-hours are common, and absurd decisions related to push something the market didn't even ask for...
delThaphunkyTaco@reddit
I'd assume the indie market will just get better
duckrollin@reddit
In a society where we are starting on the automation of everything, it'll be a huge shame if we don't get UBI in the next 10-20 years so talented people like this can just go make indie games instead.
rs98101@reddit
Yup. As an undergraduate CS major my dream was to work for a game development studio. Once I got plugged into the industry I found out about the low pay and insanely long hours I gave up on that dream fairly quickly. No regrets.
knobbyknee@reddit
But think about the shareholder value. /s
Reasonable_Offer_665@reddit
This is concerning news for the industry.
stonerism@reddit
treats game devs like shit
Why can't we find game devs anymore?
Lothrazar@reddit
If its normal in the industry to get laid off every two years; and/or get laid off every time you launch a SUCCESSFUL game, yeah i can understand why of course
Weyzu@reddit
I’m leaving gamedev this year. After a couple of years of working for one for the top corpos, and having not spent my entire career in game dev, I think I have a sufficiently detached perspective to say that it’s a weird industry.
On average, there’s more passion and there’s a constant drive for cutting-edge tech, but simultaneously we’re being bogged down by old processes. We face unrelenting clients (players), and as many have mentioned, there’s a lingering abusive relationship between the employees and the industry in general.
There’s really a more sensible way to live professionally. For me it’s switching to something steadier. Some might say I’m choosing a snoozefest or something like that. I don’t care. For me it’s nonsense to sabotage personal life in name of games. Passion for games is best pursued on our own terms, not with a blade to our necks.
If the industry can imagine a different future for itself then, to quote David Gaider, „maybe it deserves to die”.
rabid_briefcase@reddit
I've been both in and out of the industry for several decades. It's primarily a symptom of individual companies.
It's a common symptom to be sure, but in part because of the nature of where the problems lie. Bad companies hire a ton of people and have high turnover. As a result LOTS of people experience the bad problems. Good companies tend to be smaller and have low turnover. As a result FEWER people experience the best scenarios.
This depends tremendously on the companies and the processes you're referring to. Most studios I've worked at and teams I've been on have been willing to experiment around just about every processes if you can make a good business case for it, including why the policy is there and what benefits there would be for the new one.
Universally true. Crunch time is a symptom of bad management. Old-timers in the industry know to say "no" if asked, it really isn't that hard. Yes, there absolutely are abusive managers and abusive companies that prey on people unwilling or unable to say "no", they're toxic. There are also many amazing managers who push back on scope creep and budget adequate time for development, but as they're such great places people rarely leave.
Depending on what and how people measure the industry is between 200B to 400B globally each year. The estimated 10B reduction represents a lot of jobs to be sure, but globally the industry is huge and it's only between 5% to 2.5% depending on details of how you count it. Entertainment as a whole and video games specifically aren't going anywhere.
The vast majority of the layoffs and problems have been at the insecure businesses, places with high turnover, and companies that like to live on the knife's edge. Yes it's a little rougher for everybody and money isn't flowing as easily, but for good companies it's completely within the typical ebb-and-flow we've seen since the industry's earliest days.
Syliann@reddit
Many of the best games are indie passion projects and not big studio games. If young people are truly passionate about games, they should learn from those who went into the industry about how little job security there is and the terrible work balance.
Getting a more stable "boring" job can fund a hobby project outside of work. Full creative control and not being bound by market forces can be invaluable
Stellar_Science@reddit
For C++ game developers with decent math skills, scientific modeling and simulation may be a good career pivot. Instead of the simulations looking good and being fun, they have to be accurate and match the real world to a given precision, but otherwise many of the software development skills are transferable.
Bakoro@reddit
Also: robotics and almost anything related to controls systems and manufacturing.
You'll probably have to learn a little something about motors, gears, and other hardware, but whenever I do motion controls I think about the overlap with game development.
iamapizza@reddit
My gloom and doom brain is thinking that the industry will, instead of improving conditions, start looking towards generative AI solutions to churn out low quality trash or at least have it take over some of the basic tasks involved in development and overall us seeing a quality decline.
Kinglink@reddit
I made that change 6 years ago. I'm glad I did. But I had like 12 years in the industry, over that time put out about 10 games and realized.... I did what I accomplished. My best game was the first (Saints Row 2) but as much as I love "making games".... I didn't enjoy the real making games.
Went into telecommunications because I was a network programmer, and now at FAANG.
One thing I'll point out is people keep saying "Video Game Developers aren't under paid." No they still are, and they always have been. They wouldn't be leaving if they can make the same salary there. Most video game programmers are passionate about video games (I still am) But the fact is, the hours suck, the work gets to you, but really... if you can make 30% or more outside of the industry, why aren't you?
volune@reddit
They will death march you for a release deadline, and then lay you off as a reward for all the hard work.
psilo_polymathicus@reddit
Yeah, honestly, the only way it will change is when the people that these companies need don’t have enough because they won’t put up with being treated like shit.
thehutch17@reddit
I was recently made redundant from the games industry after seven years and am now moving into an embedded role instead. Perhaps I was just with a decent games studio, but I never had crunch or issues with other members of the team. The pay was an issue I saw since you get a lot less (Even for senior roles), but the flexibility of fully remote was great.
tadrith@reddit
I love that we have video game developers, because I love video games.
But video game development is one of the most thankless and difficult programming jobs you can have. You're generally paid less compared to many other software development fields, and depending on what you're doing you're going to actually need those advanced math classes.
I dabbled in it, before I entered the workforce. I found it pretty grueling work. Then, when it came time to get a job, I found that not only was working on business apps with SQL a lot easier, it also paid a lot better...
RedPandaDan@reddit
In gamedev you can slave away for years making incredibly intense simulations running at 60 FPS for shit wages and a consumer market that'll delight in your failures... or you can go into webdev, shovel some react slop together what takes a second to get to its first contentful paint and make more money for way less stress.
No one should be working in gamedev if they can avoid it.
Great-Use6686@reddit
And when you’re forced to rush through unrealistic deadlines and there are bugs consumers blame it l specifically at”the devs.”
campbellm@reddit
Shitty work/coding practices, low pay, abusive management, inflexible timelines, what's not to love?
bundt_chi@reddit
The article doesn't go into a lot of detail on the specific roles but from what little I saw many of the roles were artistic or non technical roles. Like "concept designer" and UX. Which don't get me wrong can make or break a game but this is the programming sub. Maybe I missed it but are there as many programmers leaving ? I know it's a toxic culture but it always seemed like there were lots of people willing to put up with it ?
Forbizzle@reddit
This has been a constant in the video games industry. Lay offs right now are worse than before COVID, but we've had waves in the past before. Eventually people grow up, have higher expenses, and realize that a lot of these big studios will never pay them what they can make in other roles using their skills.
thedeadsigh@reddit
Gaming seems like one of the areas more prone to predators because it seems to have far more passionate people involved, which is a shame because at a certain point being part of a cool product isn’t worth all the exploitation and shit eating.
biteater@reddit
Am I the only one here who loves my job in games lol
ReDucTor@reddit
I've been in games for over a decade, there is big mixture of all tenure levels from 5yrs to 20yrs, atleast where I have worked there doesn't seem to be a large trend of shifting industries.
During the 2008 GFC there was definately more shifting around but that always felt more like people just wanting jobs in general, and many people who left games have ended up returned to games.
The pay in games varies alot depending on the role, experience and how well you can sell yourself, within AAA I don't feel it's as bad as people say with enough experience you can definately compete with other dev jobs if you exclude FAANG and FinTech, indie is definately more limiting.
Crunch definately happens and many people don't know how to say no, depending on your role it might also end up with people judging you, for example somoene in QA is often expected to have shit pay and crunch until the end.
As a programmer often I feel the more brutal part is the hate you cop online, you have everyone saying that your game is shit no matter how hard you try, you get comments like it's just a remake, it's just after microtransactions, etc. Even though you know that you and your team have put in a bunch of work, you do learn to just ignore any socials and leave that for community managers to let you know if there is something to pay attention to.
I'm not even attached to the games industry, even though I've been in it for over a decade if I'm looking for jobs I'll look anywhere it's just that games often has the more interesting technical problems and I can work from home so it will be the job that I take.
Just for context I also don't really work directly on game play but more of an engine development, and I am very outspoke if I don't like something (crunch, pay, etc), which also means that my situation is probably not typical of most game devs.
Gaidin152@reddit
Was thinking about getting in. Even learned software engineering and cot computer science after gaming for since elementary school. But damn. The abuse the industry became known for when I got my degree was brutal. Went a more standard route and good thing as well given some medical adventures I have had.
Neuromante@reddit
Since this trend started -in videogames- I've seen that there's been a lot of reporting on it in an incredibly myopic way.
I mean, game developers (If we consider "developer" what is considered "developer" in a generalist tech company) are tech professionals. The are not working in a vacuum, and the generalist tech world, after the pandemic, has gone through several earthquakes that has left many developers in many big companies out of job. Game companies had a huge increase on sales when no one could do shit outside their houses (like streaming had), and now turns out people are less prone to stick at home playing games than before, so things start to fall apart.
While this recent trend of actually giving a shit for the working conditions of the developers in these companies is refreshing (where they were 10 years ago, or 20, when shit was the same?) what all these "reporting" is missing the actual context: Developers in the gaming industry are leaving not because they are burnt out (this has been happening for decades), but because the current market is correcting itself after few really weird years.
And by the way, in the "serious" industry, the jokes about leaving everything and start a farm have been running for decades. The problem is the corporate world.
augustusalpha@reddit
If you are willing to spend time to write such a long article, you might as well start a TikTok or YouTube series, together with those former game Devs, so that you may be able to do something as a group, instead of being alone.
There are many other issues that we have interests in common.
https://youtu.be/F8t8p4Rwuqg
purpoma@reddit
Industry is healing
nemesis1526@reddit
everyone loves videogames, the term industry is to be suspected upon. any industry has to be suspected upon.
notme-35@reddit
Tes
romulof@reddit
Did those non-compete clauses have any play in these cases?
not_some_username@reddit
It was a matter of time. They kept shitting a them because “it was their passion” now the passion fade away