Is this illegal as a PPL holder? Commercial activity?
Posted by Alert-Raspberry-9401@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 23 comments
Hi guys, I was told I might have been violating aviation regulations in Canada (I suppose it's similar in the US) and that I may get reported for it. I wanted to check whether their claims truly stand or not.
I have a PPL, very close to obtaining my CPL. I had a public Instagram page with \~1500 followers where I would share pictures and videos of my flights. Now, to make accumulating flight hours a little easier financially, I would participate in cost-sharing by bringing passengers along with me on my flights.
I have been accused by some random person who came across my social media page that I have been directly and indirectly advertising flight services to seek passengers on Instagram. These were their observations:
-
I had a post where I had written "who wants to tag along" with poll options "me" or "I'll dm you"
-
Story with a question box "Who's coming flying?"
-
Story with a question box "Would you like to come flying"
-
It is a business/professional account, the default question suggestion I propose to people when they first contact me is set to "Can I fly with you?"
-
After I fly with my passengers and they tag me in their Instagram stories post-flight, I repost them on my account and add them to my account highlights. The content of their stories are "He is the best pilot, book him" "Contact him for flying over the city", etc.
On the same topic, I know a photographer personally and he joined me on one of my flights and he ended up taking some footage of me and the plane on ground, but also some aerial footage. He then sent me the montage but also gave the montage to the video production company he works for. The company's Instagram page labeled the video as a "commercial" and basically were promoting their service saying that they provide quality videography. Was I not allowed to carry him and let him take footage?
Guys, what do you think? Did I engage in commercial activity or did I advertise any services? Is this really illegal?
PristineAnimator2473@reddit
This shit is definitely stuff you need to know to pass your PPL written in Canada lol
Fun_Job_3633@reddit
Respectfully, you set your Instagram page up as a business page, chose message prompts that implied you were a business, and deleted said page when someone called you out for it. I feel like you already know the answer and are looking for random strangers to tell you everything is fine. I'll bite and say everything is fine...but I would not do what you did with my PPL.
CanadianFltTrainers@reddit
Yes, you're advertising a 703 operation without an AOC. Very illegal. A lot of other posters have already mentioned the appropriate regulations.
Cakequest@reddit
CARs 401.28 is where you would find the answer. But I’ll try and summarize here:
PPL or CPL doesn’t matter in this case since you don’t have an AOC (although you should definitely know this if you’re close to getting your CPL).
You are allowed to share the costs of the flight if: - you own or rent the airplane (which should be pretty straightforward) - you’re conducting the flight for purpose other than hire or reward - the passengers are incidental to the purposes of the flight - the reimbursement is given to you by the passengers and is splitting your direct costs of the flight (rental fees, fuel, and oil)
The main takeaway here is taking pax up incidental to your flight. From what you’ve indicated here I don’t see any reason why you would be breaking any regulations since your posts seem to all indicate you’re going flying anyway so taking pax along is incidental. As long as you then split the cost with the pax evenly you should be ok.
As for the second part, did you get paid? If so you were acting for hire/reward. If not and the photographer was just incidental to your originally planned flight you’re fine.
Alert-Raspberry-9401@reddit (OP)
Hey thank you for the explanation! But does "advertising" cause an issue? Apparently Transport Canada told those people that "holding out" to the public by my social media could suggest that the flights are not merely incidental to the pilot's journey but are being conducted for the primary purpose of accommodating passengers. For the second part I wasn't paid a dime
Cakequest@reddit
Also the CARs say nothing about advertising so that in and of itself is irrelevant to the flight being legal or not
CanadianFltTrainers@reddit
The Air Transportation Regulations, which are enabled by the Canada Transportation Act prohibit advertising commercial air services without a proper AOC or something to that effect. This is not a CARs regulation but another one. I believe a company called FlyGTA was yanked into the Transport Tribunal for advertising services which they didn't provide and were fined. So yes, super illegal.
Cakequest@reddit
If TC has reached out to you or your pax and personally told them something then that’s who you should be listening to, not someone on Reddit. But in my opinion, if you’re already going flying and you can somehow prove it then it seems to comply with the CARs. I edited my original reply just fyi about your last 2 bullet points which do sound illegal.
Again with the photographer thing, it doesn’t matter what they do with the footage. As long as you can prove you didn’t get paid/only split the direct operating costs AND that carrying the photographer was incidental to the purpose of the flight then you’re fine.
anotherquack@reddit
Are the passengers incidental? If it can be shown that the flight was taken for the purposes of giving passengers a ride, or if the flight was scheduled purposely in a way that conformed with the passengers availability, then I would not call them incidental.
Cakequest@reddit
Well I’m not OP so obviously I don’t have an answer but I would say if OP is changing the departure time from 8am to 9am to accommodate my friend’s schedule I would still call that incidental. Taking the literal definition of incidental would be nearly impossible to prove. Now if I said I’m changing the flight from Monday to Wednesday to accommodate the schedule of the pax, that would be a lot harder to argue “incidental”. Also if the flight was purposely scheduled to take the pax for a flight then that’s not the definition of incidental
dandeman991@reddit
Very close to commercial eh?
EchoKiloEcho1@reddit
Lol
You literally solicited to take people flying for money, and you did not even pay your pro rata portion of expenses on some flights. Yes, it is really, unquestionably illegal. I hope you normally have better judgment.
BigAvatar1318@reddit
damn i didnt know canada was so much more lenient than the US…
RealChanandlerBong@reddit
It really isn't though. The spirit of the law is the same. As a PPL, you can bring passengers on board. You just can't operate an illegal charter or sight-seeing business by offering to fly random people and have them reimburse costs.
poisonandtheremedy@reddit
🤦🏻
BandicootNo4431@reddit
I've talked to TC about this before.
So there are a few components.
The first is the CARs
The CARs state you can share expenses (pro rata) as long as carrying the passengers is INCIDENTAL to the flight. So you would need to say "I AM GOING FLYING TOMORROW, WOULD YOU (SPECIFIC PERSON) LIKE TO GO" and even if no one comes along you need to do the flight.
By advertising on instagram, you are essentially advertising to the public which makes this a publicly held out flight.
Now the "legal" way to do this would be to have a group of friends you know from OUTSIDE of this instagram page, set up a group chat and say hey I'm going flying would anyone like to come along, and then don't mention money at all. If they chip in for gas, great, if not, well it's your hobby not theirs.
Dense-Hand-8194@reddit
Like the other guy said you're operating an Air Tour business. Not making money off it just means your poorly priced and a bad businessman, it does not make this not a business. The literal reviews people have posted about your business saying "contact him for flying over the city" and "he is the best pilot, book him" show that the flying public believes you are bonafide aviation business who has dotted all the I's and crossed all the T's, kept up with the maintenance and doing everything you can to keep them safe. This is simply not the case. In the USA a private pilot has to pay their pro rata share. We have a joke that your friend can't pay for the flight but you can sell him a $200 T-shirt. We make this joke because it doesn't violate the spirit of the law. The spirit of the law is to keep Joe Shmoe from setting up airplane business out of his backyard. This is what you are doing
Cakequest@reddit
If TC has reached out to you or your pax and personally told them something then that’s who you should be listening to, not someone on Reddit. But in my opinion, if you’re already going flying and you can somehow prove it then it seems to comply with the CARs. I edited my original reply just fyi about your last 2 bullet points which do sound illegal.
Again with the photographer thing, it doesn’t matter what they do with the footage. As long as you can prove you didn’t get paid/only split the direct operating costs AND that carrying the photographer was incidental to the purpose of the flight then you’re fine.
RealChanandlerBong@reddit
As a PPL holder and a future commercial pilot, you should be able to search through the CARs to find answers to your questions.
You'll find the answer in CARs 401.28
Simply put, if you are flying and decide to bring a passenger that's fine. If you are recruiting passengers for the sole purpose of splitting costs, that is illegal.
You seem to be breaking 401.28(2)(c).
57thStilgar@reddit
Not allowed to charge.
LowTBigD@reddit
Yikes.
x4457@reddit
Sounds to me like you're operating an air tours business as a private pilot, which is very illegal.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Hi guys, I was told I might have been violating aviation regulations in Canada (I suppose it's similar in the US) and that I may get reported for it. I wanted to check whether their claims truly stand or not.
I have a PPL, very close to obtaining my CPL. I had a public Instagram page with \~1500 followers where I would share pictures and videos of my flights. Now, to make accumulating flight hours a little easier financially, I would participate in cost-sharing by bringing passengers along with me on my flights.
I have been accused by some random person who came across my social media page that I have been directly and indirectly advertising flight services to seek passengers on Instagram. These were their observations:
I had a post where I had written "who wants to tag along" with poll options "me" or "I'll dm you"
Story with a question box "Who's coming flying?"
Story with a question box "Would you like to come flying"
It is a business/professional account, the default question suggestion I propose to people when they first contact me is set to "Can I fly with you?"
After I fly with my passengers and they tag me in their Instagram stories post-flight, I repost them on my account and add them to my account highlights. The content of their stories are "He is the best pilot, book him" "Contact him for flying over the city", etc.
On the same topic, I know a photographer personally and he joined me on one of my flights and he ended up taking some footage of me and the plane on ground, but also some aerial footage. He then sent me the montage but also gave the montage to the video production company he works for. The company's Instagram page labeled the video as a "commercial" and basically were promoting their service saying that they provide quality videography. Was I not allowed to carry him and let him take footage?
Guys, what do you think? Did I engage in commercial activity or did I advertise any services? Is this really illegal?
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