ElectronicsWeekly: Intel Chips Act money delayed by officials, Bloomberg reports
Posted by Helpdesk_Guy@reddit | hardware | View on Reddit | 86 comments
cjj19970505@reddit
Where is the original Bloomberg report on "officials delaying funds" ? since I couldn't find one. The latest Bloomberg's report on recent Intel debacle was "considering selling Mobileye" as far I can find?
Quote from this report "According to Bloomberg, Intel is frustrated with delays on receiving the funding while the officials are delaying payments because Intel is not giving them required information on its manufacturing road map".
We know that Intel not likely receiving funds until the end of the end (source: https://www.intc.com/news-events/ir-calendar/detail/20240904-citi-global-technology-conference)
I would like to know where is the "Intel is not giving them required information on its manufacturing road map" part from?
DaBIGmeow888@reddit
It's like Intel not financial profitable, considering cutting CapEx, reducing manufacturing spending. US govt got a whiff of this, and demanding commitment to expand manufacturing, not curtail it. So it's a catch 22, Intel has no customers and hasn't achieved its goals, yet financial needs to cut costs, yet US govt wants to see a roadmap to expanding capacity, not cutting costs and layoffs.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
I mean, the CHIPS and SCIENCE Act is predominantly about not only saving U.S.-american jobs but above all else create those and bolster the domestic ambitions and capabilities on semiconductors in the first place, is it not?
So Laying off 15% of your +120K workforce (or 21,000 people), might be the best to tamper with your eligibility got get given funds and have government-officials come asking bugging questions about it in the first place. I can understand both sides though. Catch-22.
DaBIGmeow888@reddit
It's really becoming a Foxconn Wisconsin situation where anything materializes and people just forget taxpayer money was all wasted
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
Honestly though, Intel's headcount increased as soon as Gelsinger was at the helm, for what exactly even?!
Did Intel had another division being gobbled together, to produce something out of thin air? What where these people are even hired for, when Intel had exactly no new products to market? These hires were basically redundant and Gelsinger hired them.
In fact, Intel has virtually as much stuff, as AMD (+20k), Nvidia (+30K) and TSMC (+70K) combined! Imagine how effing inefficient Intel has become, when they neither can't sport graphics like Nvidia, can't sport anything CPU like AMD either and not to mentioning being effectively ridiculed by TSMC on the foundry side of things.
That's why Lip-Bu Tan left the board of directors effective immediately. Since he basically 'failed' already at the start-line, when he tried to bring across, that AMD, Nvidia and for sure TSMC achieve way superior results and are way more personal-efficient (per-capita productivity) with a already way lower headcount.
Neither could he bring the board nor Gelsinger itself to the mere fact to accept their own gross per head-inefficiencies, never mind wanting to chance any of those utter internal inefficiencies and severe bloat and start to purge unnecessary/useless staff being redundant and with that also lower unnecessary spending.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
It's the fifth paragraph in this thread's source. Also, look my other reply to you – Extreme stonewalling from everyone involved, it seems.
It's all really frustrating since everyone quote someone else without even linking any damn sources!
DaBIGmeow888@reddit
Right? Most redditors don't read the article or take a section out of context for some spin or stretching the truth for an agenda
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
The article mentions a situation of impasse for and between Intel and government officials;
algorithmic_ghettos@reddit
I have to side with Intel here. They had a tentative deal with the government: $8.5 billion in grant money to be split five ways (three leading-edge facilities in Arizona and two in Ohio). Then, at the last minute, the government unilaterally added a massive new requirement: the $8.5 billion grant had to be split six ways with $3.5 billion being earmarked for a sixth facility that would exclusively make chips for the Pentagon and spy agencies. That effectively reduced federal funding for the five facilities already on Intel's road map by 40% and blew a $3.5 billion hole in the company's budget at the worst possible time. You don't get to pull a stunt like that ("I am altering the deal. Pray I do not alter it any further.") and then complain about uncertainty in the manufacturing road map.
SherbertExisting3509@reddit
The government should stop trying to nickel and dime Intel especially since they have been trying to negotiate with the government for months already to try and release the chips act funding.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
To be fair, the whole process of the funding, looks a lot like being deliberately made difficult and information are held back on purpose.
SherbertExisting3509@reddit
I'm curious about why intel is holding back their roadmap? Are they afraid they can't meet it? Intel reported that 18A defect density was under 0.5 defects per cm2 which means that HVM is less than 3 quarters away I don't think 18A is the problem.
I think they could be having trouble with getting High NA and Intel 14A to work. If they are that's understandable since their High NA machine is only a prototype and High NA is not officially ready yet. Intel is also wanting to use Directed Self Alignment to improve High NA yields which they may be struggling with. It might by why they don't want to commit to a roadmap just yet since it might take a while for High NA to be finished.
ProfessionalPrincipa@reddit
You mean their nerfed 18A. They could get yields even higher if they nerf it further.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
What you mean by that, nerfed? Did they scaled down the density of it?
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
Uhm, no – Actually, they did in fact not! They made us all *think*, they did just that though …
However, you like most others also fell for their shenanigans, again – No offense, we all fell for it one time or another.
They did neither report a defect-density of <0.5/mm² nor did they so in relation to anything 18Å. Read the transcripts. What Gelsinger did, was talking about defect-density, yet deliberately never mentioned anything 18Å in the same regards.
It remains fairly uncertain if Intel has actually a yield of +0.4 on their D0-dies on 18Å, as he never put that both together on purpose to lull the investors – Also, he only spoke of compound defect-density. It's up to you what that means … I know already.
I'll make a thread on that shortly here on \/r/hardware as a discussion, since it irks me a lot, that it was swallowed by so many (which was likely very well intended by the upper management of Intel) to end up that way for calming the street and public.
jaaval@reddit
Direct quote from intel:
“current Intel 18A defect density already at D0 <0.40”
DaBIGmeow888@reddit
Who the heck trusts Intel after decades of delays on 14nm and 10nm?
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
Where does it say that?
jaaval@reddit
In Intel's official announcement.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
Can you link it please?
jaaval@reddit
No, too much effort on mobile. The link has been posted in this sub recently. You can also find it in intel newsroom.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
K, found it. Though I think they get in trouble big time, if it doesn't really represent actually real yields on their 18A.
WHY_DO_I_SHOUT@reddit
Intel only reveiced the first high-NA machine in January. How much of High NA's state can even be known at this point?
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
I really have no clue what's going on over there, but it really looks like wilful obstruction on either side and some sides making it deliberately a matter of personal affairs about getting even or something like that … So much time has passed, and still basically nothing.
Strange, everything. Neither are documents being published (which ought to be freely and publicly available!) nor does Intel want to disclose anything. What they're all up to anyway? Why are funds re-allocated after being awarded?! Make it make sense!
Was all that years-long talking about imminence, supply-chains and emergency just FUD or what?! I thought, it's a matter of national security?! Or is the U.S. administration just deliberately trying to derail it, to wilfully let it brake down on purpose, only so that the biggest players in the market are prone to help themselves out by themselves and one another, stick together in a emergency-move and erect and FUND some U.S. national semi-conglomerate by themselves, without federal intervention or at least no government-funding?
Legal-Insurance-8291@reddit
Doubt it's anything deliberate. Just typical government bureaucratic inefficiency. Getting the government to do anything always requires 10x as much time and effort as it should.
Exist50@reddit
And people ask why I question the government's willingness to bail Intel out if it's clear they need more money.
DaBIGmeow888@reddit
3 years for $8 billion. TSMC spends $40 in a year. It's too little, too late, too slow
spazturtle@reddit
The BAE Systems / GlobalFoundries fabs are the ones the US government really cares about, those are the ones essential to national defence.
And if there is a major war between the US and China suddenly having bleeding edge nodes becomes less important.
Strazdas1@reddit
more important. It becomes more important. Because theres more than missiles designed in the 90s to a modern war. Theres espionage, network attacks, AI, swarm weapons. All benefit from bleeding edge.
jaaval@reddit
TSMC seems to be getting about as much. I don’t think bailout is the correct word here.
conquer69@reddit
Why doesn't the pentagon make their own chips? They get hundreds of billions each year.
algorithmic_ghettos@reddit
The numbers don't work. TSMC's annual capex is >10% of the US military's annual procurement budget.
jenya_@reddit
I thought military electronics is not produced on leading edge. It should be hardened I guess, so older nodes work fine. Military prefers long time support:
https://old.reddit.com/r/LessCredibleDefence/comments/11c947h/what_nm_semiconductors_are_used_for_military/
jmlinden7@reddit
I believe they use Xilinx FPGAs for a lot of things that require leading edge nodes, since it's easier to update the FPGA configuration than to physically qualify a brand new chip
LangyMD@reddit
There are laws/regulations in place that prevent the Pentagon from competing with the private sector, so if the private sector can offer a service the DOD pretty much has to buy from the private sector even if the DOD could do the job cheaper itself.
Besides, government-owned businesses/manufacturing is communism and the DOD doesn't do communism. Capitalism, ho! /s
jmlinden7@reddit
Lack of expertise or economies of scale
kuddlesworth9419@reddit
The US government sounds really paranoid that it wants it's own fab seperate from everyone elses.
Legal-Insurance-8291@reddit
I know it's not cool to day on Reddit, but Taiwanese people are ethnically Han Chinese, speak Chinese (Mandarin) and Taiwan has traditionally been part of China. At best they will always be very influenced by China and at worst they will eventually be part of China again. That's just not a situation the US wants to see.
Strazdas1@reddit
Of course they are chinese. The legitimate government of China is in Taiwan. They ran away there after the communist revolution. They are the same people, just in a very long cold civil war.
kuddlesworth9419@reddit
The Japanese controlled Taiwan for a bit as well.
Legal-Insurance-8291@reddit
Yeah, but being the same ethnicity and language means a lot. Kinda like US and UK being buddies despite fighting 2 wars against each other. It also means it's really easy for China to place spies into TSMC or poach their talent.
kuddlesworth9419@reddit
Living on an island is kind of nice you can pretty much ignore what is going on outside the island to some degree, I would imagine it's pretty similar with Taiwan. Only problem living on a small island is that you are dictated to by those around you. Being strategically unimportant helps a lot but I don't think Taiwan can afford that considering their chip industry and their geographic and economic size.
The relationship between the US and the UK is weird. Mostly just in the media but sometimes our government reflects that of the US or vise versa, I'm not even sure anymore. Thankfully we can just ignore the US which we do most of the time.
KiefStarmer@reddit
Traditionally sure, but sadly it feels like we're growing ever intertwined these days. We are entirely beholden to American big tech, we've imported their culture wars and our politics becomes more like theirs every day, we follow them into war, and we consume considerable amounts of American TV/film/music/ads/other cultural exports through platforms owned by American companies.
kuddlesworth9419@reddit
Thankfully our new government isn't as Americanised as the last. But yes I agree we have and are changing.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
Thank you honestly, I sincerely appreciate your post!
I never knew about any greater details, as most information were always mostly barred from the public – At least I couldn't find any actual papers of internal matters for months, which always struck me as a quite odd fact about being a publicly funding and supposedly to be displayed/readable publicly.
I would've loved to read up the whole hundred-something pages of that agreement out of curiosity (and to be able to speak with a foundational say in the matter), to be honest. I'm always curios as to what requirements given companies have to meet or e.g. if the money is allowed to be used for buybacks and such.
Same story in Germany by the way. So far, it seems that only politicians which are personally associated with the actual matter on the grounds of work-relations, are allowed to have actual access to given documents, when these funds are public funds.
Was that the news on TomsHardware over the Pentagon pulling out of a deal for some 'secure enclave'-facility between Intel and shifting the funding-obgligation towards the Department of Commerce?
Tom's Hardware: Pentagon pulls out of Intel's $3.5 billion CHIPS Act grant
Yeah, so long for the outlets providing any damn sources to actual supposedly public government-papers!
Sometimes it honestly feels, as if news-sites are just playing ping-pong and at best give a link to Bloomberg, WSJ or some else outlet but refuse to give access never mind actual source-material …
algorithmic_ghettos@reddit
Yes.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
Why though?! I really don't get all the secretiveness, the delays being dealt as if it's a personal matter and someone felt overlooked somewhere back in time. All the extreme opacity and utter in-transparency comes off as deliberate and wilful obstruction!
LangyMD@reddit
I tentatively agree here; if the government wanted to add a sixth facility, the 'quick' way of doing things would be to add $3.5 billion to the grant rather than to make them change their plans at the last moment.
imaginary_num6er@reddit
Probably because the manufacturing road map is vague on when chips will actually be ready. Remember when Meteor Lake was “tapped out” in October 2021?
SherbertExisting3509@reddit
Regardless, the govt and intel should resolve this soon. Withholding money for semiconductor fab buildout is not going to help America maintain it's lead in semiconductors nor is it going to help with bringing back jobs from overseas.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
Has any company being awarded some funds from the U.S. CHIPS and/or Science Act received any actual money at all yet?!
Dexterus@reddit
I don't think so.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
Incredible … And then they make official visits to Taiwan, only to throw nice tinder into the fire they're allegedly 'preventively' trying to damp down?! These !d!ots are even fuel it with such actions!
Strazdas1@reddit
If western Taiwan gets offended than an official from US visited Taipei, that sounds like their problem.
DaBIGmeow888@reddit
Wtf is Western Taiwan?
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
It's not that the visit was intentional to stir things up a little.
grumble11@reddit
America has a lead in semiconductors? The cutting edge is in Asia and the volume is in Asia for chip manufacturing, and the machines are (global) but predominately European. The US designs a lot of great chips, but it's increasingly looking like the only thing holding back China from eventually winning in design is trade embargoes.
The US needs to give Intel 3.5B in extra money to make up for the 3.5B it took to make them a Secure Provider. That'll help a lot.
SherbertExisting3509@reddit
I agree, I have no idea why the government doesn't just subsidize their R and D costs. They pledged 50 billion into domestic semiconductor fabs so why not take it one step further and guarantee intel's lead in semiconductors for only a few billion dollars. Better yet why not have government research departments collaborate with them to help intel gain an edge over tsmc
grumble11@reddit
They're also pushing TSMC and Samsung to make chips in the US, and TSMC announced that its Arizona facility is going well.
SherbertExisting3509@reddit
Chips should be American designed and American made
grumble11@reddit
I mean, if the facility is in the US, isn't that 'american made' despite not being owned by Americans? If Taiwan exploded, the Arizona facility would still work (directly at least, the supporting industries and materials aren't established in the US so would be an issue in the overall supply chain).
Legal-Insurance-8291@reddit
Because your average voter doesn't understand what a transistor even is.. and your average Senator is arguably even LESS well informed about technology.
Legal-Insurance-8291@reddit
Still better than ARL tapping out on 20A.. only for the entire node to end up canceled.
Educational-Plan-113@reddit
or 10nm was a few months away in 2015.
Exist50@reddit
IIRC, first MTL tapeout was indeed around that time. Doesn't mean either the product nor the process node were in any way ready. But for external customers, you need to have the process in good shape before anyone will use it. Two year tape out to PRQ timelines are not the norm.
Real-Human-1985@reddit
Isn’t 18A production moved to Ireland also?
cjj19970505@reddit
Where is the source of highlighted text that the your link said quote from Bloomberg? The latest Bloomberg's report on Intel debacle is "Intel (INTC) Is Considering Options for Its Stake in Mobileye" as far as I can find.
We know that Intel not likely receiving funds until the end of this year (source: https://www.intc.com/news-events/ir-calendar/detail/20240904-citi-global-technology-conference) but is it a delayed? Or is it just bc they are not receiving right away the report decide to put "delay" on it?
Astigi@reddit
Intel without Chips Act bailout won't survive
DaBIGmeow888@reddit
Yep, all they can do is fearmonger but COVID supply chain concerns is so 2020.
champzAG@reddit
They probably shouldn't be receiving any US government money if they are mainly cutting US based jobs to later hire in low cost countries. Government should also scrutinize that Intel specific practice. Pretty common at Intel they layoff thousand of employees most of them in the USA taking those jobs outside of the US economy an then rehiring in low cost countries.
Vb_33@reddit
Seems like Intel is in the right here.
shakhaki@reddit
TSMC has 65% marketshare and their orders are sustained and even increased by 33% in August. Intel is missing out on the demand that appears to be long-term.
Helpdesk_Guy@reddit (OP)
Typical chicken-and-egg problem then, I guess …
DueRequirement6292@reddit
wtf is the diversity and inclusion holdup? Democrats being racist against white and Asian people is ridiculous.
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xV_Slayer@reddit
Are you really this uninformed?
DueRequirement6292@reddit
About?
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AngryRussianHD@reddit
What the fuck are you on about
DueRequirement6292@reddit
Username checks out.
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SmileyBMM@reddit
Real-Human-1985@reddit
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me, can’t get fooled again.