Why are Buick Envista Brake lights at the bottom, instead of the actual taillights?
Posted by LimitedReach@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 111 comments
I was behind a new Envista and when we got to slowing down and eventually to a complete stop, I noticed that the brake lights are at the bottom of the car where the reflectors lights are, instead of the actual taillight. I see this as a safety hazard because no one expects them to be that far down and they aren’t that bright, might I add. Of course there is the third brake light but I see this being problematic down the line and could end up with owners being rear ended pretty often. Also, the police may pull you over thinking that the brake lights are out when they aren’t. It’s just many reasons why this is a horrible design!
Who at GM could’ve possibly thought that this was a good idea? It had to have been the same reverse light after turning car off guy.
Phosphorus444@reddit
I like the Envista, but those tail lights (and lack of amber turn signals) are a deadly design flaw.
Sir_Sir_ExcuseMe_Sir@reddit
We need standards of how low brake lights and rear turn signals can be. The Chevy Bolt is an absolute joke.
Also, literally two days ago, I was cut off by a Venza and didn't see the turn signal until he was already in front of me, because it's mounted TOO LOW. smh
C-C-X-V-I@reddit
The standards are why they're there. We need better ones.
Learjet45dream@reddit
Those standards exist. FVMSS 108. Table I-a lists required lamps and reflective devices including mounting location and height. Taillights and stop lights must be mounted between 15 and 72 inches high.
One-Platypus3455@reddit
Same with the new Santa Fe, but at least drivers behind know to just look at the taillight. I hope that this low taillight/brake light trend doesn’t persist!
The Envista’s design is just pure stupid. Why not just keep the brake lights in the taillights?
ryguy32789@reddit
This is an extremely prevalent thing in Hyundais and Kias and I can't stand it
shades92@reddit
Also, the turn signals being in the bumper drives me crazy.
captain_intenso@reddit
It's like they know there is a minimum height for turn signals and brake lights and went "Right, let's do that because we can."
C-C-X-V-I@reddit
And it's not like the regulation behind it is new. We've been working around it for decades. Just design the hatch a little better and it's not a problem
seasonofflame@reddit
Yessss, this plus the ones that only have one reverse light on one side and i can't tell they're about to reverse out of a car park because the tiny reverse light is on the side of the car that i cant see.
delebojr@reddit
I think it's just a Korean thing. I think the Envista comes from GM Korea so it checks
TheTightEnd@reddit
The Santa Fe reminds me of what the GM intermediate wagons did for 1978 (shared with the El Camino).
ouij@reddit
This might be /u/Doug-Demuro’s favorite federal motor vehicle safety standard at work!
By regulation, brake lights must not be on any movable piece of bodywork. Thus, brake lights on the tailgate are not allowed. So, the main brake lights must be on the bumper (that doesn’t move)
Note that there still must be a CHMSL (center high mounted stop light), usually in the rear window
AbbreviationsKey9954@reddit
The thing with the Envista is that there ARE 2 unmovable light housing up where you’d expect brake lights to be. Except they are only running lights. The brake lights and turn signals are both low in the bumper. Seems like a bad choice
KyledKat@reddit
In addition to the lights needing to be fixed, they must have a minimum lumen output. Even the fixed portions of the lights aren’t bright enough for DOT regulations.
kurtthewurt@reddit
I believe there is also a surface area requirement, which means that even if they could make them super bright it wouldn't be enough.
aaayyyuuussshhh@reddit
It has more than enough space. A RAV4 has a 1 by 1 inch LED for the brake light
kurtthewurt@reddit
The RAV4's taillamp is probably taller than you think, and it's fairly flat. The Envista also has the issue of having a very thin outer edge, which shrinks the total luminous lens area (vs the light-emitting area).
aaayyyuuussshhh@reddit
Nah the actual red portion that lights up as the brake light is quite small. It's a single LED that lights up. IMO even at night I don't think it's enough but it passes regulations. If Buick made them brighter it should have no issue
kurtthewurt@reddit
Yeah so that's the difference between "effective projected luminous lens area" and "effective light emitting surface". It's a little weird, but even though the actual LED surface is super small, that whole red area that curves upwards acts as a lens for the light, so Toyota can remain compliant. Because the Envista's whole taillamp assembly is so slim and curves onto the side of the car, there's probably not enough "luminous lens area" that faces rearward to qualify, so the brake light ends up in the bumper.
aaayyyuuussshhh@reddit
A RAV4 used S 1 by 1in LED for the brake lights
burrgerwolf@reddit
It can’t be that difficult to make the lights brighter but I’m not an engineer
avoidhugeships@reddit
I could see how you would think that as a layman. The embrightening process is actually a lot more complex than you would think.
buickgnx88@reddit
It's a perfectly cromulent process!
__-__-_-__@reddit
It’s not. Mazda and jeep manage just fine with their tiny little lights.
rioryan@reddit
Have you seen the brake lights on the new RAV4’s? They’re literally the size of a postage stamp. Bright or not, seems a little iffy to have them that small.
mini4x@reddit
LEDs put out a lot of light for their size / power consumption.
T-Baaller@reddit
Haven't seen them myself, but usually I find that the smaller the source, the harder on the eyes for the same lumen output, so I'm not looking forward to that.
asamson23@reddit
On my Corolla, the brake lights are 2 tiny LEDs, and they seem to work just fine to tell the people behind me that I'm braking.
dumahim@reddit
Have you seen how small the actual brake lights on Teslas are?
dumahim@reddit
Same with the Bolt. It's so dumb having the brake lights so low. It isn't just Chevy doing it.
BSG1701@reddit
I'm convinced these new Buicks are reusing the Bolt's exterior light setup, just changing the housing. The fronts are very very similar too. Same interior bits too I think.
College_Prestige@reddit
If the Forester can shove it onto the sides so can the envista
delebojr@reddit
You are the first person I've ever seen on r/cars use the proper term for this. Here's an award
Sonoda_Kotori@reddit
I use it daily IRL and call it Chum-sol. It's so funny when you casually sneak it into a sentence and watch people's reaction.
aprtur@reddit
Now read it with a Korean accent, which makes it even more amusing...lol
ouij@reddit
It’s so fun to say out loud. “Chims’ll”
sinkrate@reddit
Fum-vss, written by n'hits-a
delebojr@reddit
lol, you're not wrong
eneka@reddit
Fwiw it CAN be on a movable piece of bodywork. It'll just need redundancies.
This is how the BMW i3 does it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rOOx938gP4
aprtur@reddit
iX has a similar setup, as well
Time-Maintenance2165@reddit
That's wrong though. It's not that the brakes lights have to be on a non-movable piece of body work. They can be on a movable body piece, but if they are there must also be a secondary light on a non-movable piece that will be used if it detects that the back is open.
There's no reason why they couldn't use the regular tail lights most of the time and only default to the lower ones if it detects the hatch is open.
Buckus93@reddit
The real reason is it costs money. The second-gen Bolt (also a GM product) has the same design as the Envista
LimitedReach@reddit (OP)
They could’ve easily put them in the regular taillights like every other vehicle on the road. The Buick Envista’s taillights don’t move!
biggsteve81@reddit
Buick is just following Hyundai's lead with brake light and turn signals in the bumper. It is kind of a throwback to the late 70s, when brake lights in the bumper weren't uncommon.
alex053@reddit
But those cars had a sloping trunk and just a back window. All the SUVs I’m conditioned to seeing them on the edges. The worst is when the brake light and turn signals are divorced
Teledildonic@reddit
And no one stopped to ask why the choice was left in the '70s?
BeingRightAmbassador@reddit
The cybertruck is showing that shitty choices don't matter when it comes to morons who will buy the car anyways because it makes them look tough.
Like how someone I know bought one because "he was sick of paying so much in gas" when his biggest issue is that he never needed a truck in the first place. A model 3 or a hybrid is what he actually needs.
mini4x@reddit
Considering most Buicks are Korean - maybe it's a Korea thing?
delebojr@reddit
The Envista is probably controlled by GM Korea. I've seen other Korean cars with similar low mounted lights (turn & stop)
WitchHunterNL@reddit
And then there is the Audi A1, which has its brake light mounted on its trunk, with a second set of taillights underneath.
Trunk closed
Trunk open
GymLeaderMatt@reddit
My SQ has all 3 taillights on the rear lift gate. I always thought that was weird 🤷🏽♂️ Reverse and rear fogs are on the lower rear bumper.
__-__-_-__@reddit
On audis, the bumper lights turn into turn signals when the lift gate is open.
eneka@reddit
yup, same with the BMW i3. Regular brake and turn signals are on the tailgate. If it's open, the the bumper lights act as a redundancy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rOOx938gP4
TheTightEnd@reddit
Is there a light underneath the open hatch, like on the Buick Cascada and Lincoln MKC (and Corsair)?
GymLeaderMatt@reddit
No sir.
__-__-_-__@reddit
Look harder. It’s there.
GymLeaderMatt@reddit
🤔 https://www.northamericancustomcovers.ca/cdn/shop/products/321-audi-q5-qbl-1000x1000-1.jpg?v=1612812832
__-__-_-__@reddit
Oh my bad, I misunderstood what you guys meant by under. It’s on the bumper. Those are the turn signals when the hatch is open.
TheTightEnd@reddit
Interesting, I was always told that was how they made the moving hatch or trunk lid comply with standards.
GymLeaderMatt@reddit
The car is at home today, but I’m curious now if the hazards flash on the bumper with the hatch open. Will report back!!
c172fccc@reddit
The lights are on the bumper, they’re not hidden.
TheTightEnd@reddit
On the SQ (in the reply above, or the Envista (the original item)?
c172fccc@reddit
The Q5.
TheTightEnd@reddit
Thank you.
__-__-_-__@reddit
Why do you keep calling it an SQ?
Elvis1404@reddit
The SQ5 has turn signals and a redundant brake light in the lower rear bumper (along with rear foglight and revers), at least on EU models
r3almaplesyrup@reddit
Read this in Doug’s voice
External-Mushroom51@reddit
They could have easily integrated brake lights into the part of the tail lights that isn’t on the tailgate, like every other manufacture lol
segfaultxr7@reddit
Yeah, that's the same excuse for Kia/Hyundai and their idiotic turn signals in the bumper.
But somehow the entire rest of the automotive industry has figured out how to make cars with both a usable liftgate and normal taillights, so why can't they?
GuyMcTest@reddit
The Kia ones drive me nuts. Barely can see them being so low to the ground, or they just catch me so off guard
snatch1e@reddit
You’re right that having brake lights down where the reflectors are could confuse drivers behind you. It’s like having a hidden stop sign that nobody expects to see.
20footdunk@reddit
Aren't Envista's still using incandescent bulbs for the reverse and brake lighting? If so then its a cost thing.
elinyera@reddit
There are plenty of new cars still using those.
familyguy20@reddit
Really annoys me with the symmetry of it when the Subaru Forester has had LED DRLS, Headlights, license frame lights and yet incandescent reverse lights it’s weird as hell
DavoinShowerHandel@reddit
Strange take considering it's a lot of car for ~$25,000. Need to get that cost low somehow. And no, it's a federal regulation, not cost cutting that the lights are mounted low.
TwoPlanksOnPowder@reddit
It is cost cutting that they didn't make the lights higher up the brake lights and only use the lower ones as redundancy when the hatch is open. Many other vehicles go that route.
D-Smitty@reddit
GM and cost cutting, name a more iconic duo.
Lugnuts088@reddit
Hellcats and street takeovers?
RandomTasked@reddit
G35s and street takeovers
D-Smitty@reddit
Idk GM and cost cutting is a storied tradition that goes back decades. Street takeovers are a comparatively new phenomenon.
Jamaican_Dynamite@reddit
Hyundai and a lack of immobilizers.
InsertBluescreenHere@reddit
Engineers need thier dicks shoved in an ant nest for this crap. Sometimes i swear these people who not only design it, engineer it, and the big wigs that approve this shit have ever driven a car in traffic in the real world.
Learjet45dream@reddit
This is 100% driven by designers, not engineers. Designers sketch the car and dictate which functions go in which lamp, engineers get handed the designs and told to execute it.
Drone30389@reddit
Here's a post in another sub that has a picture of what you're talking about, for those of us who needed a visual aid:
https://www.reddit.com/r/automotive/comments/1f95hvr/im_totally_calling_out_general_motors_buick_for/
ResponsibleCoat4065@reddit
I hate that Hyundai and Kia do it; and refuse to buy any brand that does it, as its just unsafe since the u.s does not usually drive small low cars with lights on the bumpers of all places 🙈
Apical-Meristem@reddit
Poor decision making by the manufacturer. I get it, they have to come up with something new while keeping costs down, but it shouldn’t compromise safety. I find microscopic rear windows to be really unappealing. They can easily make them larger by using better steel, but they would cost more.
koenigsaurus@reddit
I’m with you, throws me off every time I see a vehicle with brake lights in the bumper. As a driver, you are conditioned to pay attention to the taillight cluster to tell if the car ahead of you is braking. Any additional time needed to recognize brake lights lighting up somewhere else costs stopping distance and can cause accidents.
It’s a safety hazard to have them in such an unexpected place and US standards should be updated to prevent it.
Koil_ting@reddit
They should at least just have it all there or none (excluding the third brake light)
BigOldButt99@reddit
Lol I noticed something similar the other day, I forget what kind of car it was, I think a few Hyundai or something, but they were in front of me and put on their turn signal, the turn signal was literally all the way down on the bumper where your tailpipe would be. Kind of wild
delebojr@reddit
Yeah, cars that come out of Korea (Kia, Hyundai, GM Korea) seem to have their lights in weird places. It's really annoying
neok182@reddit
GM, Kia, Hyundai, I think some others have all done this with various models recently and it's infuriating. Latest Tucson has the turn signals where the reflectors normally are and it's insane because there is more than enough room for them in the usual spot.
Updated Kona has them all low too but at least they are all in the same housing and about the level of a small sedans lights so not as annoying.
I truly hope this trend dies though. Like many others here I feel it's incredibly unsafe and was one of several reasons my mother refused to consider the new Tucson to replace her old one. She legitimately fears someone not seeing that turn signal and hitting her and I don't blame her at all. I'm in a little hatchback and when I see those low turn signals or brake lights go off it takes my brain longer to register because that's not where I'm looking for those lights.
FortPickensFanatic@reddit
I think vehicle light design has gotten out of hand, with Hyundai, Kia, Nissan, Cadillac, GM trucks/SUVs, and Ford trucks being the worst offenders.
A simple, single point of light is all that’s needed for a DRL. Mazda does a good job of this.
Some are so overdone that the lights are all one can focus on…it’s the only design element your eye sees. The big “brackets” or sideways “U”’s are just ugly.
As pickups have become the newest codpiece, and truck design has gotten larger and larger, and more in your face, the front end is a wall of various lights.
The previous Nissan design language, horrible in its own right, was made worse by their DRLs.
Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should…the winding DRLs when a turn signal is on…please stop.
kyrow123@reddit
Can I add that just the other day I saw a Hyundai (not sure the model) whose reverse light indicator was center mounted at the bottom middle of the bumper. I did not see the car directly in front of me in reverse until it started moving back towards my car. Thankfully I realized it soon enough but who in the hell at these car manufacturers decided to change something that has been so standard on cars for decades?!?
Smitty_Oom@reddit
I remember reading it's partially aesthetics related as well - design teams want a smaller taillight and want the rear design to somewhat mimic the front design, so they have lighting down low to somewhat mirror the fog lights on the front.
Won't comment on the execution, but I can at least understand the thought process behind it, especially because there needs to be something down there other than a big slab of nothing.
mini4x@reddit
Look at how big the Envistas Tail lights are, there no need for this.
CreatedUsername1@reddit
Better question is why hasn't Chevy put in EcoTec 2.0t in what with F-40. It looks like Lambo but it ain't got the guts!
mini4x@reddit
Because there is a law saying a minimum size of brake light needs to be visible with the hatch open.
Popular_Course3885@reddit
Brake lights can't be on a moveable piece of bodywork per federal regulations. They have to be permanently fixed in places.
Long story short, knew someone who used to have a Ferrari California. Those round lights on the top of the trunk lid aren't the taillights. The taillights are actually along the bottom on the rear bumper. He used to get pulled over by the police all the time for his taillights being out.
Barson_Crandt@reddit
Except for the fact that the Envista does, in fact, have fixed running lights right where one would expect the taillights would be, hence the confusion.
Teledildonic@reddit
The issue is the Envista has housings that don't move but also aren't the brake lights. And everyone else besides Kia seems to have figured out how to make beltline lights work on a hatchback.
AtomWorker@reddit
Other's have already covered the reason, but it comes down to aesthetic decisions coming into conflict with federal regulations. Brake lights and turn signals can't be on movable parts like a trunk lid. So they either add a redundant pair or relocate them outright.
This was originally a Chinese-market car so the regulations there might be different. That said, the reverse lights seem too small to have ever been brake lights and car companies tend to not make big changes like that. Even the Germans just swap out housings for all-red and reprogram turn signal sequences to match US regs.
It's most likely that stakeholders were just gung ho about this design and it necessitated this clunky solution.
arsinoe716@reddit
The designers wanted a sleek design and by having large tail lights would defeat that purpose. That is why it is in that location. Also it helps "lower" the high rear end.
pcfreak4@reddit
Look up where that car is actually built… that’ll tell u
LimitedReach@reddit (OP)
It’s stupid regardless of where they’re built!
Also, Hyundai/Kia implements theirs better because despite them also being stupidly low, the brake light is still in the actual taillight housing, where people expect them to be!
InsertBluescreenHere@reddit
Its still stupid. You get behind em occasionally, light turns green and they dont move because you cant see thier turn signal flashing 6" above the ground.
pcfreak4@reddit
Key point is that it’s a Korean car thing
ChirpyRaven@reddit
Why do you think the country of assembly impacts design choices? How do you explain vehicles like the Bolt EUV that have the same design choice but are built in the US?
c172fccc@reddit
How do you explain the Chevy Bolt EUV then? It as the same dumb design.
Lugnuts088@reddit
The Bolt was designed in Korea I believe. And yes, us Bolt owners are so well aware our brake lights suck. Some people modify them to make them operate how you would think they should have from the factory.
https://www.wardsauto.com/internal-combustion-engines/confused-koreans-have-their-say-on-chevy-bolt-volt
DangerousAd1731@reddit
At some point it was apparently deemed tail lights are ugly. If it were me I'd have brake lights at all four corners of the back