Loop 12 in Dallas has highest traffic deaths in city so far | NBCDFW
Posted by dallaz95@reddit | Dallas | View on Reddit | 68 comments
Posted by dallaz95@reddit | Dallas | View on Reddit | 68 comments
Realistic-Molasses-4@reddit
Man, 15 people dead THIS YEAR? I was surely betting on 114 or 635 taking the title, but I've never had the near death experience of walking on a sidewalk adjacent to loop 12.
noncongruent@reddit
The impression I get is that most if not all of the deaths happened when people ran out into traffic trying to cross the road mid-block instead of walking to a crosswalk to cross.
Realistic-Molasses-4@reddit
Apparently, the most recent one (kid from DISD) was a sidewalk thing, I'm sure it's both. I was just telling my wife walking next to MacArthur makes me nervous.
JLOBRO@reddit
Not particularly surprising. Fairly high rate of speed, cross traffic throughout and it seems like it’s one of the longest roads in the city? No?
noncongruent@reddit
Loop 12 is nearly 50 miles of roads and highways. The focus on this series of stores which has been running for the better part of a year is that it's mainly pedestrians being killed when hit by cars while walking in the roadway or attempting to cross where there are no signalized crosswalks. There are also stretches that don't have sidewalks, the result of those stretches being built out in what was country at the time and home developments being built that backed right up to the roadway with no room to make sidewalks.
Loop 12 was built to be an economic driver, opening up access to large areas of land that previously weren't accessible, or were too difficult to access to make it worth developing. In that it succeeded dramatically, and now the various stretches of Loop 12 are major arterials that enable hundreds of thousands of people to get to their jobs, schools, etc. every day. That economic activity in turn has helped Dallas to dramatically grow over the years.
The problem now is now to allow people who rely on Loop 12 to continue using it to maintain their jobs and such, while also making it safer for pedestrians. I've seen people say that Loop 12 should have a 25mph speed limit and red lights and stop signs every block in order to make it safer for pedestrians to be in the roadway, but that makes no sense because it'll serious damage a lot of people's ability to get to their jobs and take their kids to school. Instead, I think efforts should be focused on keeping pedestrians out of the roadway in the first place, with sidewalks that are separated from the road with concrete barriers, and with elevated pedestrian bridges located where there are currently numbers of pedestrians being struck while running across the road. The idea is to make Loop 12 efficient for everyone, drivers and pedestrians alike.
AbueloOdin@reddit
I think your history on it is pretty on point. And yeah, we've reached a point where Loop 12 ends up occupying an uncanny valley. It's built to be a highway to enable high speed traffic in certain points but built to be a local destination road in others. The majority of issues occur where it is trying to be both at the same time and thus failing at both.
I think we should figure out what kind of road we want out of Loop 12 and design it accordingly. If it is a highway, then on/off access for cars needs to be limited so you don't have large speed discrepancies from cars pulling into and off of the highway. Then add in more places where local traffic (vehicle or pedestrian) can cross it, so it doesn't divide the various neighborhoods it travels through.
If it is a destination road, then more opportunities for pedestrian crossings need to be added and vehicle speed need to be reduced for everyone's safety.
Either way, having on-ramps right next to a driveways is just a stupid idea.
noncongruent@reddit
What I really want access to is the data on crashes on Loop 12, all of the data. NBC apparently has the data as they're using selected bits of it to support their story series, and they would have paid a fair amount of money to get that data. I couldn't afford to buy copies of all the crash reports on it for sure, that'd probably be tens of thousands of dollars if not more. Without that data I can't make informed choices on what should be done, if anything. It's clear that NBC is pushing an angle, they've made it the core of this story series, but they're revealing only a very limited bit of the data they have gotten.
214forever@reddit
You can access crash and injury/fatality data from TxDOT’s CRIS query tool for free.
noncongruent@reddit
Not having any luck so far. Built a query for Pedestrian crashes, Dallas, Loop 12, 2023 and got zero results.
214forever@reddit
Try again, I just did it and got 1,412 crash records where Pedestrian Injury Severity does not equal “N - NOT INJURED”
noncongruent@reddit
Did you use the same query terms I used above? If not, which did you use? Also, which of the tools did you use?
214forever@reddit
This system: https://cris.dot.state.tx.us/public/Query/
I have no problem filtering down to Dallas County and SL0012
noncongruent@reddit
This time I got an error message:
Didn't notice that earlier, so that must be why it failed for me.
Tell me, does the information returned include the specific details of each death? For example, car went onto sidewalk and struck pedestrian, or pedestrian was struck while in the roadway, or in a crosswalk? And if the latter, what were the signal lights displaying?
214forever@reddit
Been a while since I looked into it, but it will have some of that information coded to allow for that kind of analysis
Softy_K@reddit
I'd imagine you could get most of the way there on the DOT data from their site.
AbueloOdin@reddit
I think that would be interesting to dig into, but money. My main thought is "where were the different people headed to in each conflict?" We could build a 12 ft path on each side of Loop 12, but if the conflict comes from people trying to cross, then it wouldn't really help. Similarly, if people were trying to walk down the side, more crossing opportunities wouldn't help.
Different areas might need different things, so any sort of blanket "everything needs X" feels too simplified to actually help anything. Unless we're deciding the whole of the loop should be one way or another but that would need to be a 30 year plan.
DFWRailVideos@reddit
Pedestrian bridges are proven to not work the way you think they do. (https://itdp.org/2024/02/29/pedestrian-bridges-make-cities-less-walkable-why-do-cities-keep-building-them/)
The best solution is to implement traffic calming measures, narrow the roads, impose speed restrictions, add separated biking and walking paths, and prioritize transit development along the Loop 12 corridor (bus lines, BRT, light rail, etc.)
noncongruent@reddit
So, take out a couple lanes, make it a single lane road, make the lanes really narrow, in the removed lanes add large and heavy concrete planters as not only a barrier but a visual cue to exercise real caution while driving, throw in some speed humps every couple hundred feet, and add a whole bunch of signalized crosswalks between intersections. Oh, and do like Boston did and drop the speed limit for the entire city to 25mph no matter what the road was designed for. It will be interesting to see what the results will be of adding an hour to a few hundred thousand people's commute times. Oh yeah, the buses will be delayed as well, so that'll add plenty of transit time too.
gh120709@reddit
Well put!! I agree
MonSoleil937@reddit
If I had gold I’d award this comment. I learned something today!
politirob@reddit
It's funny how we can such different perspective on things.
In your perspective, Loop 12 contributed to economic growth by enabling drivers to get to their jobs.
In my perspective, it was a subsidy that simply allowed for companies in North Dallas to hire labor at cheap rates—workers paid much less living costs in South Dallas. So they could pay lower wages to hires from South Dallas, driving en masse to their jobs up in North Dallas, then go back home in the evenings.
North Dallas gets all the labor, all the day-time spending, South Dallas gets all the tired and overworked and overspent at the end of the day.
And both get traffic and roads that divide communities.
Hulk_smashhhhh@reddit
The stretch of loop 12 around Bonnie view has a lot of deaths because people cross the rd there all the time nonchalantly. And at night they are typically wearing dark clothes (while typically being black themselves) and still crossing with no sense of urgency.
Pabi_tx@reddit
Instead of blaming people crossing a road, blame drivers who are driving too fast for their headlights.
Also, put in some damn lighted crosswalks.
yeahright17@reddit
Drivers deserve some of the blame, but pedestrians are stupid if they walk in front of a car that will hit them if it doesn't see them. I don't care if it's someone wearing dark colors at night or wearing neon while jumping across the road in the middle of the day. Same goes for a crosswalk. Never assume someone is going to stop.
TheFeedMachine@reddit
Never assume someone will stop, but drivers are also terrible at looking out for pedestrians. I am willing to bet that most pedestrian deaths are from drivers making turns without even checking for pedestrians legally crossing the small side streets and not pedestrians walking out into traffic oncoming traffic. Loop 12 is so dangerous because it has so many random turns onto and from side streets.
Pabi_tx@reddit
So people who live around there should just ... not cross the road on foot even in a crosswalk after dark?
Great idea, you should run for city council.
yeahright17@reddit
No. People should pay attention and wait for a clear spot.
Hulk_smashhhhh@reddit
You’re right, we need less personal accountability and common sense when walking across a street
Pabi_tx@reddit
Personal Accountability includes not out-driving your headlights. If you can't stop in time to not hit something when you first see it in your headlights, or around a bend, or in the rain, you're going too fast.
Also, the crosswalks along that stretch are over a half-mile apart. You may like to walk an extra mile just for fun, but some people have stuff to do.
Build some well-lit crosswalks. Build some sidewalks and traffic furniture to get the cars to slow the fuck down.
Hulk_smashhhhh@reddit
More like don’t be an idiot and wear all black and walk slowly across a dimly lit street at 2am
Pabi_tx@reddit
More like don't go speeding on Loop 12 at 2am. Nothing good happens after midnight, you're probably drunk, high, or picking up hookers. Or all 3.
AbueloOdin@reddit
1 mile is equivalent to 15-25 minutes.
Imagine cars being forced to regularly take a 15-25 minute detour to get somewhere. It would be considered unacceptable.
Large-Vacation9183@reddit
Why is loop 12 not set up more like a freeway similar to Loop 820 in Ft Worth? They serve similar purposes and are similar sizes in a similarly urbanized setting. I feel like it was put together in a much more disjointed way than 820was
noncongruent@reddit
Parts of it are, especially on the west side between Illinois and NW Highway. It was originally configured as more of a local highway, i.e. with intersections for local access, but along much of its length the ROW isn't wide enough to convert it to limited access freeway standards. Over time they added lanes and reduced the speed limits from probably 70mph down to 55mph, and nowadays much of it is 40-45mph which is appropriate for the number of lanes and having dedicated turning lanes. The big issue seems to be pedestrians walking in the roadway or attempting to cross the roadway outside of signalized intersections, both of which are not legal.
AbueloOdin@reddit
Well... I'd say the root cause of pedestrians crossing illegally is because there is demand to walk in those directions and the illegal method of transportation is the vastly more convenient method due to decades of underfunded/misfunded transportation priorities. You make it sound like the pedestrians are at fault when I think the fault is really more systemic.
I see this dude going down Harry Hines from time to time in his wheelchair. Three lanes wide, 40 mph speed limit, no sidewalk. Just like loop 12 in spots. No reasonable option for him to get from point A to point B safely, so he goes in the road. Or the bus stops that are just signs in a grassy ditch.
We need to provide safe and convenient options.
Telling people to walk 10 minutes just to get to a crosswalk then 10 minutes back is never going to work, if we actually want to solve the problem of people getting hurt or injured. Likewise, tossing a stoplight on a highway (or worse, a lighted warning crosswalk) is not going to work.
noncongruent@reddit
And yet, it's not ok for cars to use pedestrian-only trails. Also, if adding 10 minutes to someone's walk isn't OK, then neither is adding 10 minutes to someone's drive. I agree that in places that are missing needed pedestrian infrastructure it should be added. I'm in favor of adding that infrastructure in a way that doesn't add time to people's commutes in their vehicles. Punishing people who use cars to get around just because they're using cars is not appropriate in any context, especially the context of fairness.
AbueloOdin@reddit
I'm not saying it is ok for it to happen. I'm saying that we should address the root cause to prevent it from happening in the first place. If that dude had a sidewalk, he wouldn't be in the road. We're both in favor of a sidewalk in that area, it seems. There is actually a lot of common ground between us.
There will necessarily be conflicts in priorities. For example, you think that an overhead pedestrian bridge is an acceptable method. But, to borrow your language, that's just punishing people who walk just because they walk. And equally valid solution would be to bury the highway and provide at-grade crossings for people. It depends on priorities and funding.
I believe that a world where multiple methods of transport are equally prioritized would be fantastic. But we don't have that. If you want fairness, then you need to advocate for waaaaay more non-car infrastructure.
noncongruent@reddit
I agree, there must be sidewalks, and I'd go even further and say there should be real physical barriers between sidewalks and busy streets like Loop 12, barriers that can easily stop a car. What I don't agree with is damaging the usability of busy roads that millions of people use just for the sake of punishing car drivers for driving cars. Pedestrians need safe infrastructure, so lets give it to them. Unfortunately Dallas seems hell bent on blowing billions on fancy parks instead of basic things like sidewalks.
BTW, burying freeway is to expensive to be a realistic approach in most cases. Instead I'm in favor of elevating the pedestrian infrastructure. It would take a fraction of the money to do that, and it would be way, way easier to secure the funding for doing that.
AbueloOdin@reddit
I realize that burying freeways is too expensive to be realistic. I'll admit that I mentioned it more tongue in cheek. However, I also think that people would look at the pedestrian bridges and laugh. I've been to various places in Central America where they tried that and... well... people laughed. Except in places where the traffic was so heavy and fast that there wasn't an alternative. Also, the ramp necessary to make it handicap accessible is mind boggling in most places. There are plenty of different solutions each with pros and cons. You look at individual places and find the one that makes the most sense in that individual area.
We are both fairly reasonable people who sometimes throw out ridiculous things for one reason or another. We just have different ways of looking at a thing.
Like, your position of no "damaging the usability of busy roads that millions of people use just for the sake of punishing car drivers for driving cars". Do you really think that these changes are being proposed just to punish drivers? I assume not. I assume it's a bit of hyperbole. It can feel like that sometimes, but I think you know that it isn't true.
I think it boils down to multiple different groups with different needs want to use the same public resource. If we make things most convenient for car users, then it will be unsafe for pedestrians and bicyclists. If we make things most convenient for pedestrians, then people in cars will never get out of second gear and bicyclists will constantly be "speeding" and knocking people over. If we make things most convenient for bicyclists, then pedestrians can make do but, again, cars will never leave second gear.
All groups have to make some sort of compromise so that all groups can have basic needs met. Right now, we aren't meeting the basic needs of pedestrians and bicyclists. You recognize that. I think we should take the funding out of the luxury bucket for cars. You think we should take the funding out of parks. It's different viewpoints and priorities.
nihouma@reddit
Increasing people's drive times by 10 minute would save lives despite the inconvenience because slower vehicles cause less harm. Increasing walk times by 10 minutes would cost lives
noncongruent@reddit
Increased drive times means more pollution per trip, and more pollution means lives lost. Increasing walk times would save lives because people would get more exercise and thus be healthier.
dallaz95@reddit (OP)
Loop 12 was built way before Loop 820. It was a country highway surrounding the city. The LBJ Loop - I-635 and I-20 was the replacement with a much, much higher capacity.
CantDoThatOnTelevzn@reddit
I don’t understand, Loop 12 is…a loop. It is a conglomeration of roads, including NW highway and Buckner.
Pabi_tx@reddit
What part don’t you understand?
CantDoThatOnTelevzn@reddit
It’s 50 miles of roadway, of course it will have more accidents than other streets.
Pabi_tx@reddit
So you do understand but said you don't?
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noncongruent@reddit
Most of the fatalities that this TV news series focuses on are pedestrian deaths, and from what I can glean, it's because pedestrians were either walking in or attempting to cross roadways in places that it was not legal for them to do so.
nihouma@reddit
Safe and legal crossings can sometimes be waaaaaaayyyyy too far apart. Like a twenty minute detour far apart. The problem is that what Loop 12 is today is no longer serving the city's needs. It needs to be slowed down, and have more frequent crossings, and turned into a city street instead of being a pseudo highway.
noncongruent@reddit
In this story the crosswalks are half a mile apart. In fact, I measured it in google and it's .4 miles in one direction and .5 miles in the other. That means the most anyone has to walk to get to a crosswalk would be from between two crosswalks, about 1/4 mile.
There's also the issue of number of pedestrians vs. drivers needing to use that stretch of road. The number of drivers is likely in the 50,000+range daily, but the number of pedestrians is certainly less than one or two hundred. Let's say it's 500 even though that's a stupidly exaggerated number. Adding 10 minutes of delay for 50,000 drivers works out to be over 8,000 lost hours of productivity in a day, whereas it might save 8 minutes of walking x 500 people = 66 hours of time savings for the pedestrian group.
If Loop 12 wasn't being used it wouldn't be there. It's a busy arterial, it's being used. The only people that get hurt by rendering it useless or mostly useless are car owners, but I guess that's the real point after all.
dallaz95@reddit (OP)
Loop 12 is one road that’s given multiple names. IDK why Dallas likes give names to the same thing and it’s confusing for some…but here we are. Lol 😂
TransportationEng@reddit
TxDOT intended for Loop 12 to be a 'super street' with grade separations and gentle curves. The city pushed back so now we have this terrible hybrid. The road needs to look how you want people to drive. Narrow the lanes to 10, add median trees, and move the curbs in 6' on each side.
Traffic enforcement doesn't fix a bad design.
zakats@reddit
This will ALWAYS be the result of the 'just one more lane, bro' mentality taken by NT planning and TXDOT for the last ~80 years.
-
This shocked Pikachu look people get when you have people hurt or killed when extremely fallable humans drive 5000lbs weapons on the regular has gotten really old.
Iant-Iaur@reddit
Most people in the whole DFW don't give a fuck about traffic laws and rules. Nothing will change for a long time.
HoneyIShrunkMyNads@reddit
In the city it would at least help if they timed the lights to not be shit.
People get pissed and are more willing to drive through a red when they have been caught in every light on a road. This does not excuse the fact that they do it, because I make sure to stop at any and every red. But for the impatient assholes out there, this would hopefully curb some of their red light running behavior.
Iant-Iaur@reddit
I could say that the solution is to automate a lot of traffic enforcement and make it safer for the police, that it would curb criminal behavior and make the streets safer - but then you got cities fucking around with the timing of the lights and you have people complaining about their constitutional rights.
The only thing I can say is to be careful because I'm afraid nothing will change for a long time.
HoneyIShrunkMyNads@reddit
I HAVE to at least pause before going through any fresh green light cause I know there's a more than likely chance somebody is speeding through last second.
It really sucks, and it didn't use to be this way. But as the metroplex grows, more traffic and less traffic policing is encouraging this.
Iant-Iaur@reddit
I learned how to drive back in the Nineties, and people used to wave a thank you when you would let them in.
And look at the fleet of cunts up and about today.
ShakyMango@reddit
If a walkable city is heaven, then this is burning hell
B_U_F_U@reddit
Dallas has some of the most questionable civil designs i have ever seen. I didnt think it was possible for people to drive wrong ways on highways until i moved here. It still baffles me what anyone--if anyone--was thinking. Like who tf puts an on-ramp in front of an off-ramp and thinks there wont be bottleneck problems? You dont need a PE License to understand that.
EcoMonkey@reddit
The city of Dallas has a stated goal to reduce traffic deaths to zero and reduce severe traffic-related injury 50% by 2030. It’s called VisionZero. Unfortunately, the city is not at all making it a priority, and are only giving it a fraction of the funding needed to be successful. We need to contact our city council members to let them know that VisionZero is important to us.
How to contact your Dallas city council member
Dallas has made this way harder than it needs to be.
Which is better: calling or emailing?
The best way to contact your city council member is the one that you feel most comfortable doing. The important thing is that you do.
Tips on calling your city council member
Zestydrycleaner@reddit
Maybe if law enforcement had higher penalties for speeding, road rage, reckless driving, and distracted driving, these things wouldn’t be so common. Since Texans obviously cant handle high rates of speed, we need to lower the speed limit from the 70mph-85mph on state highways to 60mph.
dallaz95@reddit (OP)
I grew up in South Oak Cliff and use to frequent this area a lot! For Oak Cliff use to be the Moreland Family YMCA. I spent a lot of my childhood there.
Try walking a long Loop 12/Ledbetter. It’s scary af as to how fast ppl drive. Certain parts don’t even have sidewalks. It only took me one time to never want walk there again.
Psychedelic-Dreams@reddit
They need to re route dart in my area too. I’m off Marsalis and Illinois. Damn busses done even fit in my street. If you’re at the stop sign they force you to back up just for they can turn in the street. Force you by swerving in your lane, blocking you. They don’t respect the road humps here and go zooming down the street. I’m not lying when I say my house shakes when they run road humps.
moonlitshroom@reddit
I live off of this road. It's not for the weary, for sure.
Nomad_Industries@reddit
Could we expand DART rail and build out more MUPs to take some of the strain off of automotive infrastructure so that these stroads aren't so deadly?
Or are we just going to keep expanding car shit to accomodate all the emotional support trucks?
kon---@reddit
Man. I wince if the car I'm driving strikes a bug. Beside myself if I strike a bird or other small critter. A kid though, I just can't even imagine.