Hot take: SU-57>F-22
Posted by U-C-A-T-S@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 63 comments
Now I’d say the felon is better than the raptor as yes, the F-22 might have better stealth and get a head start. Only thing is the felon could dodge, or use flare or smth to make the missle miss. Basically after that the raptor would lose as the SU-57 is beter with manoeuvrability and would win the dogfight as stealth isn’t a factor in a dogfight
RemovedNum@reddit
The Su57 gets confused by ground clutter
gavinbcross@reddit
“Just flare and missiles will miss”, “win the dogfight”. I don’t think you have absolutely any idea how modern air combat works.
on3day@reddit
Hey, they watched Topgun twice okay?!
U-C-A-T-S@reddit (OP)
Nah, The felon could definitely beat at least one missle and then the raptor is close and it turns into a dogfight
gavinbcross@reddit
Again, read the comment above. You do not know how modern air combat works.
U-C-A-T-S@reddit (OP)
Yes I do, fire and forget
TheStonedEngineer420@reddit
Wow, you're competely braindead. What makes you think the Felon would even notice the incoming missile? Real life isn't like a video game where every missile lock is instantly recognized and then you just have to dodge. Great efforts are made to mask an actual missile lock from the enemy by modulating the radar frequencies in a way that an enemy radar warning system doesn't necessarily recognize the incoming radiation as an enemy radar. Many planes are shot down without even noticing that they had a lock on them. The F-22 could probably fire a missile without the Felon even noticing that it's there. Try dodging a missile you don't even know is coming for you.
BrianWantsTruth@reddit
This shit is bait for sure
Fonzie1225@reddit
Reddit is quite literally incapable of resisting bait, too
U-C-A-T-S@reddit (OP)
Nope…watched both of them once
Hairy-Ad-4018@reddit
Umm why did the f22 allow the su57 to get within dogfight range ?
on3day@reddit
Do we really think that drunk Ivan maintained the 6 su57s in such a way that their airframes can handle any manoeuvre above 2.5g?
U-C-A-T-S@reddit (OP)
If Ivan (the drunk Russian) didn’t manage the felon I’ll take that Sam (drunk American) also didn’t maintain the F-22
WarBirbs@reddit
Except the fact that Ruski's aircraft maintenance is usually much more supbar compared to the USAF. That's the point.
on3day@reddit
You're supposed to see the screws in the skin of a 5th gen fighter. And bubbles in the canopy are normal as well!
WarBirbs@reddit
Absolutely, while the dumb westerners focuses on reducing the RCS to a minimum, us, superior comrades, focus on getting it as big as possible so that the radar thinks it's a C-17 instead of a SU-57
The NATO brain cannot fathom our superior logic
FoxhoundBat@reddit
I mean yes, it shouldn't. But F-22 does have TVC, r/aviation cream their pants each time F-22 makes a turn (and ignores or make above comments if it is of anything else). And from YF-22 to F-22 design phase they put bigger emphasis on maneuverability, slashing the range. So what is F-22 maneuvering for and having an in built gun if not for a hypothetical dogfight?
canttakethshyfrom_me@reddit
Airshows and the lessons of Vietnam.
In real life, with hindsight, the YF-23 was the better fighter for the 21st century, BUT the insane shit the F-22 can do in a dogfight ensured that even if stealth somehow was completely overcome by technology, it would still be deadly in a merge.
Su-57 doesn't have to worth abouth stealth being overcome since it has none.
FoxhoundBat@reddit
You have contradictions in your reply;
vs
So which is it? Also, you cant be seriously suggesting USAF and Lockheed Martin spent billions of dollars into YF-22 to F-22 re-design, just for teh airshow rizz? The second quote is essentially what I said in my reply.
U-C-A-T-S@reddit (OP)
The felon isn’t a flanker bro, the SU-27,35,30,33 are
yflhx@reddit
"Because Su-57 can just dodge any missiles with flares", even radar guided missiles apparently
U-C-A-T-S@reddit (OP)
Radar missles aren’t even that manoeuvrable, take the IRIS-T (highest turn rate of any missle) this missle is ofc good with manoeuvrability but can still be dodged with good tactics (not kuvhochers bell) and if timed correctly can definitely be defeated, I’m also accounting on the best of the best of the best of the best of the USAF and Russian airforce to fly the planes (means they know how to use it correctly)
yflhx@reddit
My point was that radar missiles literally don't see flares.
Yes you can still dodge them. With well timed turn. But you, don't usually want to do this - you make a mistake and you die. It's not warthunder with its 3rd person view and missile markers. Best option is running away. And the problem is electronics, anyway. There was a recording of communications between Su-35 running away from Patriot, and A-50. Well, the Su-35's RWR couldn't even tell that there was radar lock.
thspimpolds@reddit
Bingo. When you find out a AIM-120D or worse a AIM-240 is fired at you? When you get locked by terminal guidance at less than a mile. Hell the f22 wouldn’t even need to use its radar, it could data link from an AWACS
Downtown-Act-590@reddit
The 1v1 dogfight between Su-57 and F-22 would just pretty much never happen. Even in the last decade of the 20th century, more than half of the kills was BVR already... And there F-22 would be much ahead.
They are weapons of war, not Formula 1 racing cars. They have different requirements, they can't be compared apples to apples. But after seeing Russian air force fail spectacularly in Ukraine, we can quite safely say that the US airmen are probably not wishing they had Su-57s...
PicnicBasketPirate@reddit
That's something I have a morbid curiosity about.
If one were to hypothetically have equipped the Ukrainian Air force with F-35s & F-22s, with all the logistical support required for those units. But without the combined arms doctrine and interservice support that the US military would put behind their units. Would the situation in Ukraine look much different to how it currently does.
canttakethshyfrom_me@reddit
Do they have AWACS or no? Huge difference in approach.
They'd have achieved air superiority over the Donbass either way but at a higher cost if no E-3 Sentry scanning the skies from the Polish border and feeding that data directly into the fighters.
PicnicBasketPirate@reddit
Would they have achieved air superiority?
Without the overwhelming outlay of forces that the US military would bring to bear I'm not so sure.
Hawk15517@reddit
Give them harm missles to destroy enemy AA and Sam position and Munition to destroy enemy runways. Now the russian have to start there planes further away from the Front and fly to the Front which gives the Ukraine Air force more reaction time to get there planes up and engage the enemy planes with Long range radar missles
PicnicBasketPirate@reddit
As far as I'm aware both sides have access to and have been using both of those techniques
reddit_pengwin@reddit
The biggest advantage the F-22 has over the Su-57 is that the Raptor actually exists and is not just a propaganda showpiece for a 3rd world nation.
The Felon is a prototype, nothing more - while the F-22 is a tried and tested system in service for almost 20 years.
U-C-A-T-S@reddit (OP)
The felon exists too, it just isn’t used much
Away-Angle7181@reddit
Correction: Barely exists. .. 22 aircrafts (excluding the 10 test units) can barely pose a challenge to the USN, let alone the USAF
WarBirbs@reddit
USN? True, but that still feels a bit generous lol... I doubt they could even challenge the might of a single CV battle group lol
reddit_pengwin@reddit
Don't mind a USN Battle Group - soon, even Poland can fend off those aircraft with ease. Just to put Russia's might in the correct perspective.
JimHFD103@reddit
Nevermind the F-22 has flares and is super maneuverable as well...
Nevermind the Felon is about as stealthy as a clean F/A-18 so the Raptor could see it miles away
Nevermind that they have helmet mounted cueing systems so the Rapto pilot merely needs to look at his target (no matter whether his jet is actually pointing at it or not) and an even more maneuverable Sidewinder will be headed it's way...
Nevermind Raptor pilots actually train in their jets significantly more
Nevermind that a single F-22 Squadron can put more Raptors in the air than Su-57 exist, and they have backup from AWACS and other supporting assets because combat isn't some video game one on one thing...
Away-Angle7181@reddit
No to mention the AIM174 😉
ChevTecGroup@reddit
The raptor actually doesn't have a helmet mounted queuing system, yet. It's probably coming in the high upgrade package that has just been approved. It also may finally get IR pods as well, securing its place as an absolute beast for decades to come.
Away-Angle7181@reddit
Remember that you're not just up against a single USAF aircraft... You are up against an advanced battle management group... It's always more than a 1vs1 scenario.. F22 caught with it's pants down? Maybe in a wet dream...
U-C-A-T-S@reddit (OP)
Im talking about planes, not about AWACS and everything like that
Away-Angle7181@reddit
Yeah I get that but remember that 1vs1 would rarely happen, if at all... You'd possibly have a fav depending on what u know/heard of about an aircraft but IRL we'd all have to wait and see if and when an engagement happens.. Based on the pure numbers of the SU57, it's availability for an engagement is laughable at best.
Longjumping_Rule_560@reddit
Having seen both at airshows (F-22: RIAT 2017, Su-57: Zhukovsky 2012), the F-22 and the Su-57 are evenly matched on manoeuvrability.
But the raptor has the added bonus of stealth, better training, better maintenance, greater numbers, better support (AWACS, link-16) and probably more advanced missiles.
eruditezero@reddit
This kind of well thought out, evidenced argument is what I come to this sub for.
U-C-A-T-S@reddit (OP)
Exactly, everyone underestimates the felon
WarBirbs@reddit
He's being sarcastic, my guy, this is not a high effort post... You obviously played too many dogfights in DCS and think you can "just dodge" missiles...
Nevermind the fact that somehow you seem to forget there's a lot of things that are still classified about both aircraft so any discussion like that is preeeeetty futile.
U-C-A-T-S@reddit (OP)
I don’t have any money for DCS bro
canttakethshyfrom_me@reddit
What "multi-polarity" propaganda does to a MFer.
U-C-A-T-S@reddit (OP)
No it doesn’t, the felon actually is pretty good
AlfaKilo123@reddit
If I’m not mistaken, the last A2A gun kill was in 1996, an F16 against an OV-10 (a reconnaissance aircraft). Missiles have made guns obsolete, and stealth is now one of the more important factors in any air combat, because of missiles. If you think air battles are top gun style dogfights, then you have missed out on a huge part of air combat development
leonderbaertige_II@reddit
There was a ukrainian Yak-52 with a gunner in the back seat shooting down a drone not that long ago.
AlfaKilo123@reddit
True enough. I mean it more as plane-on-plane (“turrets” don’t count) to make the point, but you’re right
leonderbaertige_II@reddit
In the lead up to WW2 the brits did build turret fighters. So I think it counts.
canttakethshyfrom_me@reddit
And then a drone got a FOX 4 kill on a Russian Mi-8.
Late-Mathematician55@reddit
I don't know why ya'll are arguing against an obviously experienced Red Flag instructor. 😂
canttakethshyfrom_me@reddit
Least delusional Russian air defence planner.
BrianWantsTruth@reddit
First we’re going to need to see the Su-57 do something (anything) outside of a movie or video game. The jet’s capabilities are purely fictional so far.
canttakethshyfrom_me@reddit
It can carry and launch R-37s, supposedly.
All other capabilities including being available for sorties are currently hypothetical at best.
Recoil42@reddit
Yeah that's a pretty hot take, OP. Don't burn yourself.
AlfaKilo123@reddit
Hot enough for an aim-9x to get a lock
thspimpolds@reddit
Or an AIM-9A 🤣
II-WalkerGer-II@reddit
Yes, F22 has no other countermeasures at all.
Ac4sent@reddit
So the F-22 doesn't have any flares or dodge?
Why am i participating in a kindergarten discussion??
derpity_mcderp@reddit
world of warplanes ahh take