Toyota's Next-Generation BEV Battery Development and Production Plan Certified by METI | Toyota Newsroom
Posted by F1_Geek@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 78 comments
just_another_bumm@reddit
Are these the same batteries they have been claiming will be ready soon...they been claiming that shit for like a decade now...
Corsair4@reddit
I see you've done just as much research as the Forbes writers who have been whining about Toyota's very public plans for the last decade.
sri_peeta@reddit
I mean the same public plans they have been regurgitating for the past decade that their batteries are coming in the next year or two? lol...
Toyota has been doing the same shit that stupid elon guy is doing with FSD, but toyota does not have a meme-able fame to attract the haters.
Corsair4@reddit
Really?
Go pre-purchase a Toyota solid state battery right now. I'll wait.
The problem with FSD isn't that it's taking long, it's that Tesla is charging thousands of dollars for the promise of functionality, and is missing their timelines.
That is fundamentally, intrinsically different than Toyota's solid state developments.
sri_peeta@reddit
Where did I say they are the same...lol. No body is arguing the tech here, but the press releases advertising their non existent products for the longest time.
Corsair4@reddit
Did you forget what you typed?
sri_peeta@reddit
Unless you are having a problem with reading comprehension, I do not know why you read that and think I'm equating the technology. Let me talk slow...
No..one..is..comparing..tech..here. But..I..am..saying..how..FSD..is..a..moving..goalpost..with..tesla..this..SSD..is..a..moving..goalpost..of..toyota.
There...
Corsair4@reddit
Agreed...That's...why...I...was...talking...about...the...purchasing...of....FSD...not...the...technology...
My...point...was...that...Toyota...isn't...getting...customers...to...pay...thousands...of...dollars...for...the...promise...of...functionality...later...
It...actually...isn't...because...Toyota...has...been...quite...consistent...with...their...timelines...about...Solid...State...Batteries...targeting...mid...to...late...20's...
sri_peeta@reddit
Oh mighty informed one, here's one for you
lol
Corsair4@reddit
Oh, that's my bad.
I didn't ask you to READ your google searched article, so naturally you didn't.
Here is your original claim:
Your article is from 2010, enlightened one.
That means, for it to stick to your own standard of "next year or two", it would need to have an estimate of 2011 or 2012, correct?
When does your article estimate the batteries to be coming?
That's a trick question, mighty informed one. Your article does not make any claims as to when the batteries are ready.
It's rather considerate of you to post a source that argues against your own comments. Makes my life easier. Cheers.
sri_peeta@reddit
Dude.. just take the L and move on...its pathetic. With every attempt, you are digging your grave deeper with your lack of knowledge on this topic.
LoudAd6879@reddit
Take the L bro. You are seriously biased & uninformed
sri_peeta@reddit
biased on what...lol
Corsair4@reddit
True or false, you claimed "the next year or two"?
True or false, you posted an article from 2010?
True or false, 2 years after 2010 is 2012?
I am not interested in anything you have to say unless you open with the answer to those questions. Either answer them, or don't bother replying.
StraY_WolF@reddit
I applaud your tenacity to go as low as he did.
GinNTonic1@reddit
Almost as bad as Mazda's new rotary engine.
gumol@reddit
what have they been claiming exactly?
just_another_bumm@reddit
That these new batteries will be out soon. But soon never seems to arrive.
gumol@reddit
Do you have a link to a claim like that from a decade ago?
AndroidUser37@reddit
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/toyota-researchers-develop-all-solid-state-li-ion-batteries/
They've been talking about solid state batteries for a decade. Most projections had them arriving by 2020, they're going to miss that mark by 6 years. I'll believe it when I see it.
F1_Geek@reddit (OP)
Two things.
COVID-19 happened.
And they were late to the SSB promise around 4 years, not 6. The new Tacoma's ejectable JBL speaker is powered by a SSB, as referenced by "small prototype cells" in the figure you see.
sri_peeta@reddit
They have been working on this since 2001 and I do remember toyota releasing the same kind of press phamplets every couple of years for for more than a decade, atlease.
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/toyota-edges-closer-solid-state-104751029.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kdWNrZHVja2dvLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAAnmhbGxOlkenxiPcu2dnJEB0lmzArChunEEZqAP2-FvK4qxkmKr3hW6fuI1V0zb-HhOYObOXpjX7KXsY9DkV9zKEuN-Ul2Xlu1tn0vnLhGKbJXVJLfAjb0AIx10dLO4tLiuKZyoURycs5OWrHMNhc87tdIjP3HW8e1fl2IMkv-J
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Thats such a flex and makes that feature 10x cooler
Corsair4@reddit
Your own graph points to "Small prototype cells in TOYOTA" for FY2020. They had a prototype vehicle driving in June of 2020.
Content_Godzilla@reddit
Normal engineering timeline frankly
Recoil42@reddit
Basically, some researchers said something COULD happen, and a bunch of antsy internet commenters started acting like it was an official roadmap item with firm announced launch date.
It's a totally bunk critique, that one. There's some more legitimate beef with a few statements from Toyota heads where they mentioned they were aiming for commercial launches in the early 2020s, but they've never actually affixed any timeline to a specific product, they just kinda keep saying they're working on it, which is fine.
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F1_Geek@reddit (OP)
They have said for a very long time that it would be ready in the mid-to-late 2020's. I never understood this rhetoric. Toyota is only saying these dates time and time again to show that they're just on track.
At least let's hold off on the snarky comments till after \~2026-2028, but that's too much to ask lol.
I remember approximately a decade ago, they promised that by 2025 every single one of their cars will be offered with an electrified option. Now we're a few months to 2025, and they did just that with the exception of their GR cars, which is perfectly acceptable.
just_another_bumm@reddit
They don't have a hybrid version of every vehicle yet. Let's not go crazy. Lexus is still missing a ton of hybrids as well as Toyota. I mean if these batteries do come out next year then I'll believe it. Till now it's all just talk.
Blaze4G@reddit
The loudest are usually the one that knows the least. This is a prime example.
F1_Geek@reddit (OP)
Toyota was only claiming this for Toyota, but come to think of it, it's true for Lexus too.
^(The dead CT and HS? Check.)
IS and RC come with a hybrid but shockingly they aren't for North America. However they're slated to FINALLY bring the hybrid model to North America, kill off the 4-cylinder turbo and V6 options, and keep the V8 for a few more years (at least for the IS). So, check.
ES? Check.
^(The dead GS? Check.)
LS? Check.
LC? Check.
LBX? Check.
LM? Check.
UX? Check.
NX? Check.
RX? Check.
TX? Check.
GX? Check.
LX? Not yet. But in Q4 2024? Check.
So yeah, every single Lexus before 2025 is electrified too. The LX was the last Lexus to be electrified.
Oh... and the second generation LFA? Check.
Marchiavelli@reddit
Damn people will straight up pull things out their ass and ignore facts if it means they can dunking on their most hated brands
Can’t imagine living through life with this lack of basic level thinking and disdain
EICONTRACT@reddit
I think the hybrid LX is already out in middle east
Recoil42@reddit
Every Lexus in production is hybridized (or electric) except for the LX. Just a single model.
IS, ES, LS, LBX, UX, NX, RX, TX, RC, LC, GX — All hybrid.
gumol@reddit
which Toyotas are not hybridized?
Corsair4@reddit
The 4Runner (will get the redesigned Tacoma powerplants), the Supra (likely discontinued), the GR Corolla, and the 86 (rumored to get a hybrid/electric version of the GR Corolla powerplant).
On Lexus's side, it's just the LX600, which will likely get a hybrid version at some point because it shares the same powerplant as half of Toyota's already hybridized trucks and SUVs.
AOA1998@reddit
Different output for the LX700h
F1_Geek@reddit (OP)
Yeah but consider the GR cars as their own entity. With that said, I wouldn't be surprised if more GR cars come to fruition as hybrids. It's very possible.
Also, the A100 is on its way.
Corsair4@reddit
If you have any credible rumors regarding a A100 Supra, I'd love to see them.
I tend to avoid any news about a Supra or MR2, given how... consistently awful western reporting is about the Supra name.
F1_Geek@reddit (OP)
I heard stuff about the A100 in the works around a year or so in the A90's production (A.K.A., during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic in summer of 2020). People who were close to the project wanted to hear ideas of what customers wanted to see in the A100. A lot of people clamored for a Toyota engine (especially the V35A-FTS), whereas I was wanting an inline-six like the A90.
As much as my heart hurts to say this, while Toyota will stay partners with BMW on various projects, I've heard from a reputable insider that Toyota is going to break up with BMW for the A100.
I'm a pure Toyota guy, but I LOVE BMW for what they've done over the years. The A90 GR Supra is one of the most overachieving sports cars on the face of this Earth due to this amazing collaboration. I'm happy it's coming into its own stardom and stepping away from the shadows of the A80, it has made itself into a legend.
BMW bones, Toyota engineering and tuning, turned out to be a match made in heaven.
I wish Toyota would just take the basic blueprint of the B58 and make it their own monster, but Toyota is developing the A100 all in-house.
The A100 was about to become fully EV (gasp!), but Toyota was anal about power-to-weight ratio and wanted to ensure that the car's range was adequate. Unfortunately (or rather, fortunately), the battery technology hasn't matured yet to build a car that they wanted that had batteries that could sustain high power, had great range, and were light. They wanted power but not at the cost of a lot of weight. So, they pivoted to a hybrid for the A100.
Expect a solid 30k price jump too.
So all we know is that:
A100 is coming
Developed in-house
Hybrid
\~80-85k starting price (but given inflation, I wouldn't be surprised if it's 90-100k USD)
gumol@reddit
yep, 2025 4Runner will be hybridized. So they hit their goal
yeah those all "GR" cars, which was called out by /u/F1_Geek
Corsair4@reddit
I'm not disagreeing with you, to be clear. I'm just being specific.
gumol@reddit
got it, thank you!
hehechibby@reddit
Though not 'a ton', I guess one could say the GX and LX are missing a hybrid variant, though with the GX550H and LX700h incoming, that'll change soon
gumol@reddit
None of those are Toyotas.
hehechibby@reddit
Fair enough. Was just going off by the above poster on Lexus missing some hybrid models
Ran4@reddit
What the fuck are you talking about? Lexus barely sells any non-hybrid cars.
LBX, UX, NX, RX, IS, ES, LS, LC... all hybrids available and well selling (yes, even the LC500h is like 1/3 the sales of the LC500)
F1_Geek@reddit (OP)
This is them pretty much confirming with the Japanese government that their first cars with SSBs will be produced in 2026. I heard they were very close to finishing development several months ago, and now that there's a solid date in which they're going to start producing cars with SSBs is nice to see.
The performance batteries are also intended to start phasing out the half-hearted attempt with their batteries in their current EVs as well.
I also postulate that in order for the entry costs to be cheaper, I think we'll see these be implemented in hybrids with their new 1.5NA/1.5T and 2.0T 4-cylinder engines that they developed and should come out relatively soon. Just my guess here.
HeCannotBeSerious@reddit
What's the density of the SSB and cost per kw?
Recoil42@reddit
Something interesting here (which wasn't necessarily announced before) is that PPES/PEVE will produce the performance battery. Previously these batteries were on the roadmap, but Toyota hadn't really confirmed they would be made in-house, which left some possibility they could be sourced from partners.
Regarding SSBs and hybrids, that was originally the plan, with Gil Pratt saying in 2022 they'd be the first application, but... who knows. It's quite possible Lexus wants dibs on them for the LFE, or GR gets them for the supposed MR2.
I think regular hybrids will just end up getting some sort of bipolar LFP setup — at the costs SSB will demand, it's not likely they're going into anything under $100k at first.
KanterBama@reddit
I’ve been saying all along that Toyota’s next MR2 is going to be all-electric, super light weight with SSBs (like sub-3k lbs, which is light in 2024), and still have a range of like 200 miles because it’ll only have 220 hp/ft lbs.
For some reason everyone wants to argue against this, but the ethos of the MR2 and what Toyota has been saying about SSBs literally go hand in hand.
Doppelkupplungs@reddit
I mean I could see Honda using LG batteries (kind of like Nissan using Envision AESC). Toyota is more vertically integrated than any of the Japanese automakers (or most automakers perhaps other than BYD or Hyundai) so they would like to produce much of it in-house as possible. Them using CATL in some e-TNGA model is obviously a stop-gap.
Recoil42@reddit
LG Energy Solution and Toyota Sign Long-term Battery Supply Agreement to Power Electric Vehicles in the U.S.
F1_Geek@reddit (OP)
Damn they really are investing hard with the Japanese. Well done. I hear the LG batteries are pretty decent? So this should be interesting for future Toyotas.
F1_Geek@reddit (OP)
Well, those guys are technically under the Toyota umbrella, so yeah it is a "partnership", but in reality they're working with their own subsidiaries. That's such a fucking flex lol.
Good point. I wish we had the new Toyota Aqua in North America, apparently they made some massive progress with the bipolar batteries in that car. I can't wait for cars to get the improved hybrid technology here.
Recoil42@reddit
The Crown gets the same bipolar battery as the Aqua, further productionized. There's a good overview of them here. Supposedly the returns are better power output for a smaller size. Toyota wants to use the same construction on their LFP based BEVs, which is why I suggest it might end up on the hybrids too.
Doppelkupplungs@reddit
I was under the impression that all TNGA/Dynamic-Force engine hybrid that still had NiMH had bipolar battery? So Lexus RX, NX, TX Grand Highlander, Crown those sort of things...
Recoil42@reddit
Looks like the 500h does, at least.
HeroYouKey_SawAnon@reddit
Lol that's fun. The turbo hybrid RX gets the bipolar battery while only the non-turbo hybrid in the Crown does. Wacky supply chain.
F1_Geek@reddit (OP)
Wow that's actually bizarre haha.
F1_Geek@reddit (OP)
Oh I didn't know that about the Crown. Thanks!
deppaotoko@reddit
According to Toyota's battery roadmap announced in June 2023, the NCM-based prismatic battery with a monopolar structure will be introduced to the market in 2026. In 2027, the LFP-based prismatic battery with a bipolar structure will follow, and solid-state batteries are planned for 2028. Idemitsu, the supplier of solid-state electrolytes, projects mass production to begin around 2030, so it's likely that Toyota's vehicles equipped with solid-state batteries in 2028 will have very limited supply.
F1_Geek@reddit (OP)
Thank you for this.
It seems like the timeline for SSBs have been brought forward, but like you mentioned, I'm sure there will be extremely limited supply.
RiftHunter4@reddit
I don't think people are ready for how revolutionary Solid State Batteries are going to be. We're already seeing the first products launch and it's a generational leap in battery tech.
Recoil42@reddit
The first ones will likely be quite neutered — don't get too excited.
RiftHunter4@reddit
I assume the first cars with them will simply use smaller batteries to save cost, but they are just way better than the current tech we have.
MechMeister@reddit
I'm fine with a 150 mile range if it charges in just a few minutes.
Recoil42@reddit
More likely you'll see them in very high-end cars first. Or hybrids.
Eventually, sure. But the first ones will likely be quite neutered to improve lifetimes and reduce aging risks.
ThisGuyKnowsNuttin@reddit
Indeed, they're not gonna tank the residual of all their leased EVs with a generational leap overnight. It will start small and expensive. They have to recoup their R&D after all
Recoil42@reddit
It's not about residuals, it's about risk and scale. Manufacturing processes are going to develop over time, but they'll play it safe at first with easier-to-produce chemistries and by imposing performance limitations. That's simply how it is. Over time, they'll iterate.
ThisGuyKnowsNuttin@reddit
That too, it's many things
I mean, how you gonna convince people your new tech will last 10+ years when it hasn't been around that long?
HeroYouKey_SawAnon@reddit
People are very ready and will not care. That's not because SSB's aren't awesome and better, but because current EV battery tech is already plenty good enough for pretty much all EV needs. The problem with BEVs remains charging availability and reliability which SSBs don't solve. SSBs can make charging faster and batteries denser but that's not necessarily noticeable to the end user.
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AbbreviationsMore752@reddit
Hybrid, PHEV, and REEV with SBB—it's the perfect match!
EICONTRACT@reddit
I’m skeptical but maybe it’ll be on the super low volume super car then that could make some sense from a price and volume perspective.
Responsible-Stock-72@reddit
Yeah , I'll believe it when I see it