TSMC’s Arizona Trials Put Plant Productivity on Par with Taiwan
Posted by 221missile@reddit | hardware | View on Reddit | 35 comments
Posted by 221missile@reddit | hardware | View on Reddit | 35 comments
DaBIGmeow888@reddit
Well yea, 50% of newly hired staff are engineers from Taiwan, so makes sense.
If you look at the Washington TSMC fab in Camas, WA (FKA WaferTech), the cost per unit is +50% higher in US than it is in Taiwan. So no, defect rates (yields), is still very different from actual productivity and unit costs at the of the day.
Legal-Insurance-8291@reddit
This is basically why IFS is doomed. Even if 18A is equal in performance to N3P it will still cost 50% more since made in the US.
BobSacamano47@reddit
Why do you think the US can't get costs down?
Strazdas1@reddit
Because american workers will not agree to work 12 hour days 6 days a week with no overtime pay or compensation.
BobSacamano47@reddit
I see. You just wouldn't think chipmaking is such a labor intensive process.
Legal-Insurance-8291@reddit
Higher wages and lower worker productivity. Same reasons every other form of manufacturing has moved overseas. Admittedly those issues are a smaller factor in a capital intensive sector like semiconductor manufacturing, but they still play a roll. Also the general dysfunctional regulatory and permitting in the US is a huge issue. Especially compared to a country like Taiwan where the government is the largest investor in TSMC and obviously has a huge incentive to treat them favorably.
BobSacamano47@reddit
Interesting. I wouldn't think salary/labor is a huge factor here considering the degree of automation and cost of the machines. But it's not my field.
ExeusV@reddit
Chips act is there to make the manufacturing in US viable, it should cover that difference between US costs and Taiwan costs
LeotardoDeCrapio@reddit
Manufacturing in US has always been viable. Most fab processes are highly automated.
TSMC's edge is on technology, being 1 or 2 nodes ahead. Not on price. TSMC is not necessarily the cheaper supplier.
DaBIGmeow888@reddit
Yes but Apple isn't going to buy cheaper second rate products, it's going to buy the very best and transfer the cost to customers.
DaBIGmeow888@reddit
No, CHIPS ACT is not remotely enough money.
Apprehensive-Buy3340@reddit
It is my understanding that the CHIPS act is meant to subsidise the building of fabs on US soil, not provide continued subsidies to offset wage differentials.
LeotardoDeCrapio@reddit
CHIPS is basically about subsidize capital costs for fab building and semi process development. Since we're reaching an era of exponential design costs across the board (both for design and manufacturing).
Taiwan, Korea, the EU, and China all have their own subsidy programs for semiconductors as well.
imaginary_num6er@reddit
Not a buck has been paid to Intel from the Chips Act yet
BobSacamano47@reddit
Any idea why they can't get the defect rate down?
Nicholas-Steel@reddit
And all it took was importing taiwanese citizens...
8milenewbie@reddit
It makes the local TSMC workers who got annoyed when the Taiwanese workers came in look pretty silly.
Nicholas-Steel@reddit
I assume TSMC is importing them to side step the need to deal with unions, and doing business as usual (treating the staff like shit).
LangyMD@reddit
Maybe, but it could also be due to the lack of experience doing the fab job and eventually the need to use a cadre of experienced Taiwanese engineers will decrease. May or may not have anything to do with working conditions, unions, regulations, etc - an experienced workforce is pretty damned important, and since the US has significantly less fab production than Taiwan I presume we don't have as many workers experienced with all the equipment, processes, etc that TSMC is using here.
Mahalangur@reddit
I have worked in both EA and US semiconductor manufacturing. Manufacturing is about saving cost, doing as much as you can in shortest lead time with the least amount of manpower as possible. What I experienced in EA would be called as "miracle efficiency" by management, and "extortion and abuse" by the employees. People in Asia gets x3 the work in US in same period of time because you are culturally more lenient with attitudes in safety, and you are expected to work tirelessly night and day until your big boss is satisfied. In US, when you work overtime beyond your regular hours, you get some sort of compensation whether it be a paid leave or monetary, and it is expected automatically by the management. In Asia, no one expects it. It truly is a living hellhole which is why I moved overseas.
8milenewbie@reddit
TSMC imported them because the American workers were underperforming. The point is the workers are not of the same ability, nor is it possible to have the same kind of productivity under American regulation compared to Taiwanese, unlike what many Redditors were saying. Some of them even made the ridiculous assertion that the Taiwanese workers were less efficient compared to the Americans, which is something that's proving false in every American fab.
It's fair for the American workers to want better conditions, but the idea that American workers could perform the same as the Taiwanese is silly.
YixinKnew@reddit
Why?
ZolotoG0ld@reddit
It all depends what we want to see.
A rush to productivity over everything else, in which case cheap workers with few safeguards and long ahrd working hours will perform better.
Or a mix of productivity while ensuring workers get a fair deal too. In which case we have to accept productivity won't be quite as high per worker, but we have a society where most people have a better quality of life.
LangyMD@reddit
If they're not able to reach those levels of efficiency under American regulations, are you saying that the Arizona fab is violating American regulations?
Legal-Insurance-8291@reddit
Americans are basically taught from childhood that we're #1 at everything so you're definitely gonna have a hard time convincing most that America actually sucks at a lot of stuff.
NotTechBro@reddit
I’ve never heard of such a thing, could you elaborate on when there’s ever been a country named Taiwan?
Bi_partisan_Hero@reddit
My favorite country other than the US
SausageSlice@reddit
You don't know about Taiwan? It's an independent country off the coast of China. It's been around for quite some time it's crazy that you've never heard of it.
Patient_Stable_5954@reddit
Better than importing illigal immigrants.
Legal-Insurance-8291@reddit
If any illegals can get one of these plants operating well then I say give them a work visa.
Forrest319@reddit
Do they still have to send the chips to Taiwan for packaging after they've been fabbed. Last time I read anything that was the case that all the packaging was still being done in taiwan so chip manufacturing in the US was not nearly as impactful as it sounds.
jmlinden7@reddit
Most of the packaging supply chain is in Asia
Tman1677@reddit
My understanding is that the government thinks we could easily move packaging to the US in an emergency - unlike the chips themselves that are incredibly difficult. Hard to say if they’re right
Worldly_Apple1920@reddit
Mostly optics, if "supply chain security" truly matters, Intel wouldn't be outsourcing 30% of manufacturing (plus all of 20A nodes) to Taiwan island.... just proves how gullible the US gov't is.
Legal-Insurance-8291@reddit
Having chips made on the US is mostly about optics. Obviously the assembly all happens in Asia too. TSMC gets a lot of hype as a Taiwanese company that's vital to the supply chain, but Foxconn is obviously incredibly important too.