Greta Thunberg arrested at Gaza protest in Denmark – DW – 09/04/2024

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__DraGooN_@reddit

The activist was part of a group calling for an academic boycott of Israeli universities.

What the hell is this?

Palestinians should not be held accountable for the actions of Hamas. But Israeli citizens, students and professors must pay for the actions of their government?

What kind of hateful nonsense is this?

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It's not a boycott of Israeli citizens. It's a boycott of relations with Israeli institutions, as a part of a broader scope of measures intended to politically isolate Israel from the rest of the world. The same thing was done in South Africa to end apartheid.

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babarbaby@reddit

A) There have been a number of retrospective investigations into the South African academic boycott, and the overwhelming consensus is that it was, at best, empty, gesticular virtue signaling that accomplished nothing, and at worst it actively hurt the anti-apartheid cause.

B) punishing Israeli universities in this way hurts the Israeli left and helps the Israeli right. If you actually wanted to affect change, disempowering the forces in Israeli society that would naturally align with your cause is not the way to do it.

C) it's glaringly hypocritical that proponents of these boycotts single out Israel and only Israel. The University of Copenhagen has a campus in China, for example. Somehow Greta didn't mention that. Even if you choose to believe every accusation made against Israel, and absolve the Arab polities of all culpability/agency past and present, it still wouldn't be anywhere close to the 'worst' country.

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zizop@reddit

Can you point me to a source for A), please?

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babarbaby@reddit

Yes of course. Do you have access to jstor, or another institutional resource for broadly accessing academic journals?

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_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_@reddit

Are you going to provide this source then?

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_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_@reddit

Yes.

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zizop@reddit

Sure

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dedicated-pedestrian@reddit

I too would at least like an explanation that doesn't sound like handwaving.

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CapstanLlama@reddit

Good points A) and B). You lost it with C).

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aykcak@reddit

Yep. I really don't understand how people think a whataboutism is a good argument. It is basically admitting that Israel is bad but at least not the worst. As if we should be thankful instead

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beefprime@reddit

Israel is bad but at least not the worst

Which is not even true, ethnic cleansing and genocide are pretty much the end all be all of crimes.

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Plus-Age8366@reddit

Zionism is Jewish self-determination. How do you think the vast majority of Jews feel when you tell them exercising their rights is ethnic cleansing and genocide?

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robiinator@reddit

I did not know self-determination required genocide. You either don't know what Zionism is or are acting like you don't.

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Plus-Age8366@reddit

It doesn't.

ou either don't know what Zionism is or are acting like you don't.

I'm a Zionist, so I think I would know what Zionism is.

You're the one who doesn't know what Zionism is.

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robiinator@reddit

So you're for an ethnostate and for eradication of Palestinians?

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Alaknar@reddit

I think you're confusing Zionism with the Hamas charter and Palestinians with Israelis.

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robiinator@reddit

Look up "Zionism beliefs":

*Claim to a Jewish demographic majority and a Jewish state in Palestine.

*Ethnic unity and common ancestry of Jews.

*Negation of the life in the Diaspora.

*Revival of the Hebrew language.

*In the Israeli Declaration of Independence.

This all sounds very fascist and ethnostate.

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Plus-Age8366@reddit

I'm for a nation-state for Jews, as they have a right to have under international law, and for peace with the Palestinians.

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beefprime@reddit

You don't have a right to create a nation on land you don't own. Zionists are by definition committed to ethnic cleansing of Palestine in order to create a Jewish state (an ethno-state, in other words). None of that is moral. Ethno-states are racist constructs, ethnic cleansing is just wrong, land theft is wrong, etc. Also connecting Zionism with all Jews is racist as well, as there are many, many Jews who are vehemently opposed to it.

You can dress this up with appeals "self-determination" or whatever you want, but the underlying reality is that Zionists are fundamentally dedicated to ethnic cleansing, one of the most heinous crimes known to man.

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Plus-Age8366@reddit

You don't have a right to create a nation on land you don't own.

How is any indigenous nation supposed to gain independence from colonizers, by that logic?

Zionists are by definition committed to ethnic cleansing of Palestine in order to create a Jewish state

No, they're not. No Palestinians had to be moved to create a Jewish state.

Ethno-states are racist constructs,

You mean like the ethno-state of Palestine? Or is it just a racist construct when it's a Jewish state?

, as there are many, many Jews who are vehemently opposed to it.

How many?

but the underlying reality is that Zionists are fundamentally dedicated to ethnic cleansing,

I'm a Zionist and I'm not dedicated to ethnic cleansing.

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beefprime@reddit

How is any indigenous nation supposed to gain independence from colonizers, by that logic?

You're really barking up the wrong tree here, aren't you? Israel IS THE COLONIZER. The modern state of Israel was made by removing Palestinians and replacing them with settlers, a pattern that continues today in the West Bank.

No Palestinians had to be moved to create a Jewish state.

Ahistorical bullshit.

You mean like the ethno-state of Palestine?

Whataboutism.

I'm a Zionist and I'm not dedicated to ethnic cleansing.

If you are a Zionist, you are, if you aren't, you aren't a Zionist, you are just confused and don't have a clue what you are talking about.

A Zionist saying they aren't dedicated to ethnic cleansing is like someone who believes in Lebensraum not being dedicated to ethnic cleansing, it is a fundamental contradiction.

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Plus-Age8366@reddit

Israel is the indigenous nation. Jews are indigenous to Israel. The state was made by indigenous Jews declaring independence, not by removing Palestinians.

Ahistorical bullshit.

We'll never know because the Arab side rejected all deals and tried to drive the Jews into the sea.

Whataboutism.

The original statement was "Ethno-states are racist constructs." It's not whataboutism to apply that definition equally to all ethnic-based nation-states. I understand, though, it's uncomfortable to apply your insane standards for Israel to other groups.

If you are a Zionist, you are, if you aren't, you aren't a Zionist, you are just confused and don't have a clue what you are talking about.

I have a feeling that I, as a Zionist, know what Zionism is more than you do.

Can you answer my question? How many Jews are vehemently opposed to it?

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beefprime@reddit

Israel is the indigenous nation. Jews are indigenous to Israel. The state was made by indigenous Jews declaring independence, not by removing Palestinians.

It was made by colonizing Palestine with Jews from abroad, there are indigenous Jews there but there was a concerted effort to move Jews there from elsewhere and to remove Palestinians from what is now Israel in order to create a critical mass of Jews to gain firm control of the territory.

We'll never know because the Arab side rejected all deals and tried to drive the Jews into the sea.

If I occupy half your house why would you ever accept a "deal"?

The original statement was "Ethno-states are racist constructs." It's not whataboutism to apply that definition equally to all ethnic-based nation-states. I understand, though, it's uncomfortable to apply your insane standards for Israel to other groups.

Which would be a valid complaint against what I'm saying if I was saying that there should be a Palestinian ethno-state in the region, which I am not saying. Instead its whataboutism because you are pointing to a (non-existant) Palestinian ethno-state to divert attention from Israel being an ethno-state. Any state in the region should impartially serve all of its inhabitants.

I have a feeling that I, as a Zionist, know what Zionism is more than you do.

I don't think you do.

How many Jews are vehemently opposed to it?

How many Jews support it? Its a meaningless question, but just as one example the Haredi Jews in Israel generally oppose it largely on religious grounds.

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Plus-Age8366@reddit

It was made by colonizing Palestine with Jews from abroad, there are indigenous Jews there but there was a concerted effort to move Jews there from elsewhere

Yes, Jews lived in exile for centuries and then finally returned to their ancestral homeland. It's a beautiful thing.

If I occupy half your house why would you ever accept a "deal"?

Palestine is not the Arabs' house. It's a region they themselves colonized and then lost centuries ago.

Which would be a valid complaint against what I'm saying if I was saying that there should be a Palestinian ethno-state in the region, which I am not saying.

So you're opposed to Palestinian statehood?

I don't think you do.

Zionism: "the movement for the self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland, the land of Israel." Let me guess, you know more than the ADL?

How many Jews support it?

Answer my question and I'll answer yours.

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No-Appearance-9113@reddit

Do you believe Israel should be able to retain the lands in gained between 1948-1967?

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Alaknar@reddit

I don't think it's "whataboutism". It's pointing out the hypocrisy of people protesting extremely hard when Israel does something bad, but when countries like China do something infinitely worse nobody bothers to do anything.

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aykcak@reddit

That's pretty much whataboutism

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Alaknar@reddit

It's not, because he's not using it to deflect anything. He's mentioning three reasons why these protests are not that great, one of them being the hypocrisy in protesting this one, single instance of war crimes, while ignoring everything that's going on in Syria, all over Africa or the genocide happening in China.

You know, where was Thunberg when russia destroyed the Kakhovka Dam? Wouldn't an "environmental activist" be better suited to protesting THAT instead of an urban conflict? Sure, she did criticise them for it, but where were the protests? Where was the activism?

And like I said, it's not whataboutism because the aim is not to invalidate the point of the protests (because they DO have a point - even if misplaced), it's to show the hypocrisy of the main actors.

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spudmarsupial@reddit

It's an excuse to do nothing.

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Mike_Kermin@reddit

To be fair, they're not doing nothing, it's an intentional choice to undermine.

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-SneakySnake-@reddit

Look at all the people who try to compare the IDF with Hamas and make favourable arguments for the former. If you can draw any sort of equivalence between the defence forces of a sovereign nation and a fundamentalist terrorist organization - even if you can argue the first one isn't as "bad" as the second - that's a really troubling thing.

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Cabo_Martim@reddit

i mean, IDF may be shooting people, but at least they are vegan

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Paradoxjjw@reddit

The mere fact they have to stoop as low as a fucking terrorist organisation says enough about how bad the IDF is

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BrutalistLandscapes@reddit

How is Israel the worst country??

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CapstanLlama@reddit

I didn't say they were, I didn't say they weren't. OP's point C) is simple whataboutism, detracts from rather than adds to points A) and B). There is no rule that you're only allowed to protest the single very worst country and let others off no matter how bad they are. Kindergarten level thinking isn't helpful.

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BrutalistLandscapes@reddit

I don't think it needs to overlap with the other points for it to be valid.

I personally think Israel hasn't gone far enough, that the boycotts are a waste of time, and I know that nothing can be done to stop the mighty IDF and US forces from controlling and containing the situation there.

I also know that the BDS movement itself is spearheaded by emboldened antisemites and Islamic fundamentalists too cowardly to admit their ulterior motives, which is destruction of Israel, Palestinians as a replacement to Israel (not a two state solution), and round 2 of the Holocaust. They've said this and preach it in their protests.

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CapstanLlama@reddit

Yeah, you're not a serious person.

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BrutalistLandscapes@reddit

Nope. I'm very serious. Even worked in throughout the Middle East between 2011 and 2016. I've dealt with the terrorist threat firsthand and have the scars to prove it.

Islamic fundamentalism is a threat to the observable universe.

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Cabo_Martim@reddit

congratulations: you went to a place to kill people, got attacked and are using the attack to justify killing even more people.

you ara fascist.

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BrutalistLandscapes@reddit

I was a civilian, never served in the military, though some civilian contractors admittedly kill people too.

You're calling a liberal/leftist black man who grew up in public housing in a poor neighborhood a fascist. A fascist for not taking the Islamofascist platform.

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The4thJuliek@reddit

So you're saying that anybody with a background like yours couldn't possibly be fascist? But everybody else, including people who've struggled a lot more than you have, can totally be called fascists, got it.

It's good that you're not in a difficult environment anymore but being a black American man from a poor neighbourhood doesn't give you a pass for denying genocide and being incredibly racist and Islamophobic.

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Cabo_Martim@reddit

being black doesnt makes you imune to fascism.

being liberal is the opposite of being leftist.

you went to middle east in a imperialist project. you may not have killed anyone directly, but you sure did take your share in participating the system that killed people.

i wouldnt blame you. it is a job, after all and i know how the system push many people to do so. the problem is that you really think a genocide is justifiable and are using your terrible experience as a reason to that.

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CapstanLlama@reddit

Way to double down in proving the opposite of what you claim; the lack of self awareness isalmost charming but actually tragic and offensive in equal measure.

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BrutalistLandscapes@reddit

Lack of self-awareness? For not accepting the terrorist platform?

I don't hate Palestinians. Unfortunately, their leaders and some within the population don't feel the same about me. In case you didn't know, they don't take kindly to Americans and have a very long history of unequal to brutal treatment against black people.

Why would I rally behind people who would think nothing of kidnapping and killing me and my family, just as they did to the hostages? Give me one good reason. I don't think you can.

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Thebananabender@reddit

Are you a serious person?

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cytokine7@reddit

Oh the irony...

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IsNotACleverMan@reddit

C points out hypocrisy. It's worth raising.

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HaxboyYT@reddit

It’s just plain whataboutism, you’re not pointing out any hypocrisy.

If someone was against Israel but also pro China, that would be hypocrisy. But you’re saying “oh we know Israel is bad but what about these guys”.

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IsNotACleverMan@reddit

It makes you wonder why they singled out this one specific issue when there are so many worse instances of the specific issue occurring at this same time. What's so special about Israel when you have Yemen or Sudan or Eritrea?

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HaxboyYT@reddit

Israel is in the western sphere for one, and is a major ally of the US and other European powers.

Yemen, Sudan and Eritrea are all awful but Israel/Palestine has been going on for about a century at this point.

And Gaza’s death toll is very comparable to Sudan and Yemen, with the former having 38 people killed per day in Darfur, the latter having 103 people killed per day and Gaza having 119 killed per day.

It’s still a humanitarian disaster and atrocities are committed almost daily. Why would anyone be against bringing about awareness of it?

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IsNotACleverMan@reddit

Has Greta said anything about Sudan, Eritrea or any of the countless other humanitarian disasters and atrocities going on? My point is that she's being awfully selective about what she cares about.

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Mike_Kermin@reddit

Your point is whataboutism.

It's a basic fallacy. You do not get to undermine A, because of B.

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IsNotACleverMan@reddit

I'm questioning her motives for only caring about one. That's not whataboutism.

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CapstanLlama@reddit

I have resisted this repeatedly because it's such an easy target, but you repeatedly underline, reinforce, and demonstrate its truth: username absolutely checks out.

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IsNotACleverMan@reddit

Oh wow. Attacks against my username. How clever of you.

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CapstanLlama@reddit

Like I said I resisted and resisted, but you just kept on coming with moronic non-arguments. And saying your username is apt is not an attack on your username, it's a fine and fitting username. Just so we're clear on this latest bit of idiocy, anyone - yes even you - can easily check and find Thunberg does not "only care about one." Another poster even linked her talking about Sudan specifically, but I doubt you even looked at that.

And anyway, what's with your own "awfully selective" about what you care about?? Sure you're defending the Israeli state, what about China and the Uighers? Myanmar and the Rohingya? Don't you care how the Spanish treat donkeys? What are your motives for only caring about one? Smells like hypocrisy according to… well, you.

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IsNotACleverMan@reddit

Okay. Sounds good.

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Mike_Kermin@reddit

It's literally whataboutism.....

You have to play the ball instead of saying the ball doesn't count. It always counts. Balls are critically important. Trust me on that.

If Hitler came back tomorrow and said Hamas' October 7 attacks were unjustifiable he'd be right.

He'd still be a fuckhead.

But if anyone said "Hitler doesn't really care about this" in order to undermine the issue, it would absolutely be whataboutism.

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HaxboyYT@reddit

https://x.com/gretathunberg/status/1511601617807806464?s=46

Anyway, I still don’t get this logic. Does someone have to be deeply educated and constantly protesting about each and every conflict on the planet to have a say on anything?

Is Israel committing war crimes in Gaza? Yes or no? If so, why would you be against it being brought to light? Especially when it’s western governments supporting those crimes

You’re not going to affect much by protesting about Yemen and Sudan because everything that can be done about it, is already being done. Unless you’re going to protest for more aid to be sent, there isn’t anyone standing up and saying they support and would like the humanitarian disaster those people are going through, so there isn’t much to protest against.

Unlike with Israel, where the US and other European countries are still sending weapons to bomb more toddlers to bits, where there are people who are genuinely happy with the destruction in Gaza, if not wanting more, and where the conflict has been a hot topic for decades, even if you ignore everything since October 2023, from the illegal occupation, the settlements, yada yada

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CapstanLlama@reddit

No it doesn't! It's just whataboutism, pure and simple. Not protesting every other injustice doesn't make you a hypocrite for protesting one particular injustice! Why are these boycotters not protesting the oppression in Myanmar? What about the Kurds in Turkey? If they're so concerned about Israeli oppression of Palestinians, why so quiet about Pakistanis and albinos in Africa, eh? What about Spanish mistreatment of donkeys? Hypocrites…

You're no more serious than the other poster.

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IsNotACleverMan@reddit

It makes you wonder why they singled out this one specific issue when there are so many worse instances of the specific issue occurring at this same time. What's so special about Israel when you have Yemen or Sudan or Eritrea?

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Mike_Kermin@reddit

No more than I wonder why you do.

In that I don't. If you're wrong, it's because what you're saying is wrong. Not because I've never asked you about something else.

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silverionmox@reddit

B) punishing Israeli universities in this way hurts the Israeli left and helps the Israeli right. If you actually wanted to affect change, disempowering the forces in Israeli society that would naturally align with your cause is not the way to do it.

The reason why it's universities that are targeted is a) because it's student protests, and as students of their university they have a direct involvement with the cooperation agreements that their alma mater conducts, and b) because Israeli universities facilitate and support the actions against Palestinians in various ways - the demand attached to the boycott typically is to stop that support.

C) it's glaringly hypocritical that proponents of these boycotts single out Israel and only Israel. The University of Copenhagen has a campus in China, for example. Somehow Greta didn't mention that. Even if you choose to believe every accusation made against Israel, and absolve the Arab polities of all culpability/agency past and present, it still wouldn't be anywhere close to the 'worst' country.

By that reasoning you can't protest against anything, because there's always some other problem going on somewhere else.

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adeveloper2@reddit

By that reasoning you can't protest against anything, because there's always some other problem going on somewhere else.

I'd also say Israel's treatment of Palestinians is among the worst in the world right now and only topped by some 3rd world countries.

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LastStar007@reddit

as students of their university they have a direct involvement with the cooperation agreements that their alma mater conducts

Student governments don't have anywhere near enough influence on policy enacted by university administration to effectively pressure them on Israel.

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LauraZaid11@reddit

Edit: I’m reposting this comment because the previous one was erased since I didn’t have a user flair.

Of course they have. In my country student protests have changed legislation. Around 2011 the government wanted to make changes to the law which would make public universities partially private, and students from the 2 biggest public universities, which also happen to be the top 2 universities in my country, went on some heavy protests and managed to stop the government from implementing those changes. The student representatives from both universities sat with the government to negotiate and protect public education, not just for universities but schools too.

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silverionmox@reddit

Student governments don't have anywhere near enough influence on policy enacted by university administration to effectively pressure them on Israel.

Student protests have lead to revolutions in entire countries, getting a minor policy change in their own university is well within their ability, since they only need to pressure their university, and they are physically present there.

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Paradoxjjw@reddit

Also, it's not a secret that universities such as Ben Gurion university openly host "the future base of the Israel Defense Forces’ (IDF) elite technology units". They literally brag about it on their own website after all. They openly work together with them on creating the future generations of weapons to be used against Palestinian civilians. It's not surprising that students would demand their university stop supporting institutions like the ben gurion university.

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adeveloper2@reddit

C) it's glaringly hypocritical that proponents of these boycotts single out Israel and only Israel. The University of Copenhagen has a campus in China, for example. Somehow Greta didn't mention that. Even if you choose to believe every accusation made against Israel, and absolve the Arab polities of all culpability/agency past and present, it still wouldn't be anywhere close to the 'worst' country.

What Israel did to Palestinians is basically African-level carnage (think Sudan or Ethiopia). While China does shady things to Uyghurs, they do not even come close to this type of violence. A better comparison is Russia in its treatment of Ukraine and I don't think Denmark has that many ties to Russia these days.

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Mandhrake@reddit

A. Is unbased, B. Is a denial, not a proposition. B is what nations do to push other nations to agreements, without war. C. Is clearly a red herring fallacy.

Israeli people should be considered a different entity than israeli state. Nonetheless, they will suffer along with the choices of their governments, as all peoples with every government.

And always the least knowledgeable will make the biggest ruckus

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Cabo_Martim@reddit

B) punishing Israeli universities in this way hurts the Israeli left and helps the Israeli right.

there is no israeli left, as much as there is no US left.

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4051@reddit

at worst it actively hurt the anti-apartheid cause.

It didn't.

the overwhelming consensus

From who? Certainly not South African academics.

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SabziZindagi@reddit

Putting this into A, B, C didn't make it sound like less of a tantrum.

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really_nice_guy_@reddit

But there is no apartheid in Israel

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juiceboxheero@reddit

According to the two largest human rights NGOs there is. Human rights watch. Amnesty International

These reports are pre October 7th. Now at best Israel conducts Apartheid, and at worst genocide. Solidarity, Greta.

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really_nice_guy_@reddit

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/1700763578-human-rights-watch-under-fire-for-allegedly-accepting-millions-in-qatar-funds

yikes. I bet HRW has totally unbiased reporting...

Also if even the founder has to come out and speak against HRW covering of I/P...

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2009%2F10%2F20%2Fopinion%2F20bernstein.html

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Cabo_Martim@reddit

according to the ICJ!

https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/186/186-20240719-adv-01-00-en.pdf

And according to the OG apartheid, South Africa

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Plus-Age8366@reddit

It's a boycott of Israeli citizens. Individual Israelis and pro-Israel Jews have been targeted by the BDS movement.

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BrutalistLandscapes@reddit

Since October, they've been trying to agitate as many people disconnected from the conflict as they can, for simply being Jewish or having the audacity to be connected to Israel or Jewish people in any way.

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RaiJolt2@reddit

Yeah all hamas’ propaganda has done is cause Jews in other countries to get attacked and hasn’t actually saved any Palestinians.

Funny how that works

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BrutalistLandscapes@reddit

Hamas rapists/child abusers don't cate about Palestinians. They use them as bulletproof vests.

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southpolefiesta@reddit

"Germans should be held accountable for actions of their Nazi Government."

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Scythe95@reddit

Iirc it's to stop the influence of the Israeli government with those universities. So to stop that there is certain propaganda within colleges. Atleast that's the case in the Netherlands

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slickweasel333@reddit

And it's funny, because the Israeli influence is a drop in the bucket compared to Qatar, which has spent by far more than any other country, over 4.7B USD. (https://www.nas.org/reports/outsourced-to-qatar/full-report).

There's a certain irony when Qatar is donating to create joint journalism programs with American students while Qatari journalists can be jailed for a tweet.

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GeneralSquid6767@reddit

What does Northwestern U have to do with Denmark?

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slickweasel333@reddit

Sorry about that, I fixed the link. The article I originally posted was a case study of Northwestern U, but also cited the report I meant to post.

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GeneralSquid6767@reddit

Do you think Denmark is part of the US?

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slickweasel333@reddit

No, but the BDS is a global movement.

Virtually all of the BDS campaigns on campuses today are a direct response to the 2005 Palestinian National Call for BDS, a call put out by a coalition of Palestinian organizations led by the P.L.O. and including Hamas and other terrorist organizations. The BDS movement was established with the intention of isolating the Jewish state in order to eliminate it. In addition, today’s BDS leaders, both in the US and abroad, have, almost to a one, publicly advocated for the elimination of the Jewish state, a goal considered antisemitic by world leaders such as the Pope, President Obama, the Prime Ministers of Canada, England and France, scholars of antisemitism, and the vast majority of the organized Jewish community.

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Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

Virtually all of the BDS campaigns on campuses today are a direct response to the 2005 Palestinian National Call for BDS, a call put out by a coalition of Palestinian organizations led by the P.L.O. and including Hamas and other terrorist organizations.

So if Hamas issues statement calling people to drink alot of water then drinking alot of water is anti Semitic.

Boycoting is not terrorism. The BDS is not doing any terrorism. BDS is not calling for its members to commit illegal activities.

The BDS movement was established with the intention of isolating the Jewish state in order to eliminate it.

BDS movement objective is ending the Israeli occupation of the occupied Palestinian territories and the Syrian Golan.

today’s BDS leaders, both in the US and abroad, have, almost to a one, publicly advocated for the elimination of the Jewish state

Delusion and victim complex.

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slickweasel333@reddit

I never said boycotting was terrorism, but I invite you to please point to where I said as much.

The official BDS movement still works in conjunction with the Palestinian National and Islamic Forces. Here's a photo from their own website of their delegation traveling to Brazil to encourage the govt to abandon a $35m development collaboration project with Israel. https://bdsmovement.net/news/palestinian-civil-society-congratulates-new-foreign-minister-brazil-and-demands-suspension

Pictured with them is Salah Khawajah, spokesperson for the Palestinian National and Islamic Forces, according to the BDS website itself. The Palestinian National and Islamic Forces includes * Hamas * Palestinian Islamic Jihad (the folks who accidentally rocketed the palestinian hospital), * Fatah, * the PFLP (well known for pioneering armed aircraft-hijackings in the late 1960s and early 1970s) * The DFLP (best known for the 1974 Ma'alot massacre, which was a kidnapping of 115 mostly school children hostages), * the Palestinian Popular Jihad Brigades, * The Palestinian Liberation Front, known for the hijacking of the Italian cruise ship MS Achille Lauro on 7 October 1985, and murdering an elderly wheelchair-dependent Jewish New Yorker, Leon Klinghoffer.

And many other similar organizations.

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sweatyanddry@reddit

I never said boycotting was terrorism, but I invite you to please point to where I said as much.

You were trying vilify boycotts and other nonviolent means of resistance by lying about the BDS objectives claiming that the BDS aims to "eliminate" Israel - i know that Zionists can't help projecting their genocial wishes.

Worse, you keep trying to associate the BDS with some Palestinian organizations like Hamas saying that the BDS founding as well as all BDS activities on campuses as the materialization of the wishes of terrorist Palestinian organizations.

Never mind that BDS is more of a tactic. Everyone from hamas to college students can engage in BDS. There are even Jewish Israelis doing BDS (Boycott from Within association).

BDS should be judged based on its objectives and actions!! last time i checked aparthied boycotts are neither wrong nor immoral.

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Carlos-_-Danger@reddit

Imagine traveling with a KKK member on official organization business trips and still saying your organization is not racist. "It's just these zionists that wish to associate us with these violent organizations."

Hamas is a current member of the Palestinian BDS National Committee, which, according to their own website, is the broadest Palestinian civil society coalition that works to LEAD and support the BDS movement for Palestinian rights.

Even the NY Times agrees (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/27/world/middleeast/bds-israel-boycott-antisemitic.html)

B.D.S. describes itself as a loosely connected, nonhierarchical network of activists, though coordination is provided by the Palestinian B.D.S. National Committee

B.D.S. treats resistance to what it sees as Israeli oppression, including by armed struggle, as a legitimate right. Asked in an interview if B.D.S. condemned violence that targeted Israeli soldiers, its cofounders declined to comment.

The B.D.S. National Committee’s members, for example, include the Council of National and Islamic Forces in Palestine. The council includes several groups designated by the United States as terrorist organizations, including Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.

If the BDS movement wants to distance themselves from the leading BDS Committee and the armed resistance groups, they're more than welcome to, but I've never seen it.

[-]

sweatyanddry@reddit

The real KKK are the IOF and settlers!!

Your logic is clear example of the guilty by association fallacy.

Again, any organization is to be judged by its actions and objectives!! Both the objectives and actions of the BDS are legit, rightful and moral!!

Hamas is a current member of the Palestinian BDS National Committee.

And this committee includes tens and tens of other bodies from Palestinian NGO Network, countless Palestinian workers unions, farmers unions, women union, writers union, lawyers unions etc etc

More importantly, BDS is to judged based on its objectives and actions!!

B.D.S. describes itself as a loosely connected, nonhierarchical network of activists, though coordination is provided by the Palestinian B.D.S. National Committee

BDS is to judged based on its objectives and actions!!

Also per my last comment, BDS is a tactic.

BDS is supported by wide range of bodies and orgs from around the world like Jewish Voices for Peace and even Jewish Israelis like from Within association.

B.D.S. treats resistance to what it sees as Israeli oppression, including by armed struggle, as a legitimate right. Asked in an interview if B.D.S. condemned violence that targeted Israeli soldiers, its cofounders declined to comment.

Oh no, you got. Why should BDS condemn armed struggle?

General Assembly resolution A/RES/38/17 which "Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for their independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial domination, apartheid and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle"

The B.D.S. National Committee’s members, for example, include the Council of National and Islamic Forces in Palestine. The council includes several groups designated by the United States as terrorist organizations, including Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.

These USA terror designation are motivated by the interest of the USA and Israel. Why is the IOF not on this list?

BDS is to judged based on its objectives and actions!!

[-]

Carlos-_-Danger@reddit

The guilty by association fallacy doesn't apply when the terrorists sit on your boards and are full members. It's not an association. They are a venn diagram.

[-]

sweatyanddry@reddit

This whole post is a lot of words when you could've just said this and saved us the effort of reading everything else. I'm glad to know where you truly stand.

The UN resolution 37/43 states that "The struggles of peoples under colonial, alien domination, racist regimes for the implementation of their right to self determination and independence is legitimate and in full accordance with principles of international law.

Any attempt to suppress struggle against colonial, alien domination, racist regimes is incompatible with the charter of the United Nations"

Another UN resolution "reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for their independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial domination, apartheid and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle"

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slickweasel333@reddit

Why should BDS or any person with some knowledge of international law condemn armed struggle against aparthied and colonialism

This whole post is a lot of words when you could've just said this and saved us the effort of reading everything else. I'm glad to know where you truly stand.

[-]

Carlos-_-Danger@reddit

Imagine traveling with a KKK member on official organization business trips and still saying your organization is not racist. "It's just these zionists that wish to associate us with these violent organizations."

Hamas is a current member of the Palestinian BDS National Committee, which, according to their own website, is the broadest Palestinian civil society coalition that works to LEAD and support the BDS movement for Palestinian rights.

Even the NY Times agrees (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/27/world/middleeast/bds-israel-boycott-antisemitic.html)

B.D.S. describes itself as a loosely connected, nonhierarchical network of activists, though coordination is provided by the Palestinian B.D.S. National Committee

B.D.S. treats resistance to what it sees as Israeli oppression, including by armed struggle, as a legitimate right. Asked in an interview if B.D.S. condemned violence that targeted Israeli soldiers, its cofounders declined to comment.

The B.D.S. National Committee’s members, for example, include the Council of National and Islamic Forces in Palestine. The council includes several groups designated by the United States as terrorist organizations, including Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.

If the BDS movement wants to distance themselves from the leading BDS Committee and the armed resistance groups, they're more than welcome to, but I've never seen it.

[-]

Psudopod@reddit

"Trying to fight apartheid with rockets and terrorism is unacceptable!"

Ok. Yes. You're right. We should use peaceful protest and boycotts.

"Anti-semitism! Terrorist conspiracy!"

Please. Let people take peaceful actions of resistance, or tell me you condone illegal apartheid. Do you condone illegal apartheid?

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slickweasel333@reddit

There are plenty of peaceful Palestinian acts of "resistance" that I have not criticized. Please point to where I said that peaceful resistance is not ok.

Or do you condone jumping on the coat tails of movements started by terrorists?

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Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit

"Resistance"

Lol

[-]

GeneralSquid6767@reddit

Sounds great! I think more can be done to intensify calls for BDS. Hopefully it has the same effect that it had on apartheid South Africa.

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slickweasel333@reddit

When the initiative was started by Hamas and many other recognized terrorist organizations (that have called for the elimination of Israel) in order to harm Israel at all levels, I hope it's obvious why even president Obama went as far to say that the movement was antisemitic.

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GeneralSquid6767@reddit

BDS has been around since before Israel helped found Hamas.

But yes it is pretty obvious why a US president would call any criticism and non-violent action against the government of Israel antisemitic?

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slickweasel333@reddit

BDS as a theory existed, but no organized boycott started until 2002.

In 2005, Palestinian civil society organisations called for boycotts, divestment and sanctions (BDS) as a form of non-violent pressure on Israel.

From the website of the BDS movement. https://bdsmovement.net/what-is-bds

Note that Hamas is among those "civil society organizations" but not mentioned there.

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GeneralSquid6767@reddit

Note that Hamas is among those “civil society organizations” but not mentioned there.

Source: I made it up. But nice try!

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slickweasel333@reddit

The first signatory of the Palestinian BDS Call was the Council of National and Islamic Forces in Palestine, which, according to the Anti-Defamation League, was founded by Yasser Arafat at the start of the Second Intifada in 2000 for the purpose of “organizing a unified effort among major Palestinian factions to oppose Israel and coordinate terror attacks.” The Council includes among its constituent organizations Hamas, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) and PFLP – General Command, all three of which are on the U.S. Department of State’s list of Designated Foreign Terrorist Organizations and are committed to the elimination of Jews and the Jewish state through terrorism and violent means.

I'm happy to list all the other terrorist groups that are part of the Council...

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GeneralSquid6767@reddit

Do you consider anyone that criticizes Israel illegal occupation a terrorist? That would explain a lot

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slickweasel333@reddit

Nope. I think that the free exchange of ideas and opinion is important. An academic boycott of this nature, created by literal terrorists, goes against this.

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GeneralSquid6767@reddit

So if you’re in favor of a “free exchange of ideas” that means you’re also against illegal occupation and apartheid, right?

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slickweasel333@reddit

I see what you're trying to do with changing the subject.

Trying to get me in a gotcha does not change the fact that BDS is a terrorist-created movement that sought to enlist the support of well-intentioned activists in opposing any cultural or academic exchange with Israel.

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GeneralSquid6767@reddit

Answer the question, Susan. Do you think illegal occupation and apartheid are an abhorrent practice and that BDS should be deployed to fight against it? It’s a yes or no question.

[-]

slickweasel333@reddit

Like I said, I see that you're trying to change the subject of BDS's terroristic origins, and yet you still support it.

[-]

GeneralSquid6767@reddit

Thanks that the answer I needed

[-]

BrutalistLandscapes@reddit

You're just mad because the other user exposed your hatred for the Jews.

Want to know something? BDS doesn't matter, is ineffective, and spearheaded by Islamic terrorist sympathizers.

But none of that is important, anyway. Israel, the mighty IDF, and US forces aren't going anywhere, and there's nothing you or anyone else can do about it. The IDF will stay in Gaza and the Israeli terroritory called West Bank for as long as needed, and no one is powerful enough to stop it.

If you don't like it, too bad. Find another hobby besides praying for round 2 of the Holocaust. That's what the whole BDS and anti-Israeli movement is about. The Palestinians are their own worst enemy, their problems.s are self-inflicted, and antisemitism is rampant in Middle Eastern society.

Where is your outrage when Lebanon commits real apartheid against Palestinians? Or when Jordan subjugated them? Or when Kuwait sequestered them before they were kicked out of the country with nothing after the Gulf War? Any critique?

......crickets.

We all know why. If it isn't Jews, it isn't news.

I'm American, but my ex is serving in the IDF now. I've already sent her 3 care packages, and if you message me, I'll send her a fourth one through international mail today.

My advice to you is to go and protest all the gay people Hamas and other terrorists there love to torture. Or the racism against black people and Asians present in that society.

[-]

GeneralSquid6767@reddit

Sorry I don’t speak to apartheid supporters. But in the meantime if you want to show your support for it, I encourage you to try this.

[-]

BrutalistLandscapes@reddit

Huh? What apartheid? The one in Lebanon? Kuwait? Jordan? I haven't seen one in any Israeli territory.

Occupation isn't apartheid.

Now I'm off to send her another care package, thanks to your reply. I'll be sure to let her know that you motivated me to send another.

Thanks for doing your part in helping the almighty IDF.

[-]

GeneralSquid6767@reddit

Send her this and tell her it’s not too late: https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/

[-]

BrutalistLandscapes@reddit

Why should I? You completely dodged all of my points.

The package I told you about has already been sent. Thanks for your help and assistance to the IDF. I seriously wouldn't have done it if you didn't reply. Without your generosity by replying, I wouldn't have done it, and I'm not bullshitting either.

[-]

GeneralSquid6767@reddit

I mean if you really want an answer to your question: this is apartheid.

But if you’re just playing dumb, then I reiterate my previous offer for you.

[-]

Thebananabender@reddit

I study in TAU, thanks for also boycotting my Arab professors, doctors, and staff and the 20% of Arab students in the Israeli academia.

[-]

Paradoxjjw@reddit

Zionists and lying their asses off even if their own sources contradict them, name a more iconic duo

[-]

slickweasel333@reddit

Here is the statement from Hamas themselves

https://web.archive.org/web/20060425165617/http://www.jmcc.org/banner/banner1/bayan/aqsbayan14.htm

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snockpuppet24@reddit

Just remember the psychos who are arguing with you. They're outing themselves as part of the pro-Hamas crowd.

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GeneralSquid6767@reddit

I heard Hamas also support breathing air, does oxygen make you a terrorist 🤔?

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Ramboso777@reddit

One can suspect some of that Money goes to this activism

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zizop@reddit

We should probably drop relations with Qatari universities as well. Two things can be true at once.

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slickweasel333@reddit

Almost all Israeli donations are public, which is why the BDS movement can target them so publicly. Over 100 American colleges and universities failed to report these significant Qatari contributions, in direct violation of legal requirements.

[-]

flastenecky_hater@reddit

Jailing for a tweet is still good, sometimes they return them with IKEA manual.

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adeveloper2@reddit

What kind of hateful nonsense is this?

It's a strawman you created to whip on perhaps.

Western nations have no problem boycotting Russia, Cuba, China, and other countries over political differences. Why Israel is held at a special standard?

Also, there is a difference between Palestinians and Israeli in this situation. The war right now is between Gaza and Israel. The former only consists of a subset of Palestinians and the latter consists of almost the entirety of Israeli's.

If Palestinians from West Bank are subjected to boycott over the actions of Hamas for instance, then that'd be as inappropriate as targeting non-Israeli Jews over the actions of Israel. But of course, that's not the case.

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sheytanelkebir@reddit

It's OK when that exact thing happened to iraqis, because of saddams government action.

[-]

Alexpander4@reddit

Palestinians are being "held accountable" by being genocided to the last man, woman and child, their homes razed and settlers placed to replace them, which many western powers are bankrolling or outright supporting.

Israelis are being "held accountable" because some people want to boycott their institutions?

That's not to demean or understate the horrible Israeli deaths due to terrorism, but you just need to look at the numbers of civilians dead on either side to know that Israel's response isn't right. Hamas is the Israeli government's Al Quaeda, using the pain of their civilians as an excuse for invasion, rape, plunder and genocide.

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IsNotACleverMan@reddit

Palestinians are being "held accountable" by being genocided to the last man, woman and child

Then why are there so many left? If this is what Israel is doing, they're doing a really shitty job of it.

[-]

silverionmox@reddit

Then why are there so many left? If this is what Israel is doing, they're doing a really shitty job of it.

Ethnic cleansing is part of genocide, and that includes chasing people away from the place where they live.

[-]

xthorgoldx@reddit

Except that's not what /u/alexpander4 said. They said that they were being "genocided to the last man, woman, and child."

It's braindead hyperbole that gets brought up and immediately walked back every time it's used. "Genocide doesn't necessarily mean killing, even though that's the meaning that was deliberately implied!"

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Alexpander4@reddit

No no, having seen those recent videos of a UN convoy picking their way through the deserted ruins of a completely flattened city, I think genocide is a pretty appropriate term. A holocaust even, though obviously not that holocaust. I'd also apply it to Korea, Vietnam, the War on Terror, the Boer War camps, and any other ""war"" where civilians are killed en-masse for no reason other than that they're there.

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ThrowAwayRaceCarDank@reddit

Then you don't understand the word genocide. It is offensive to the victims of actual genocides to compare those wars to genocides.

[-]

xthorgoldx@reddit

a Holocaust even

Again: absolutely shameless exaggeration that is as disrespectful to the victims of this disaster as it is to the actual Holocaust.

Korea, Vietnam, GWOT

"Genocide is anything I think is bad, because it's a scary word."

[-]

silverionmox@reddit

Except that's not what /u/alexpander4

[+1] said. They said that they were being "genocided to the last man, woman, and child."

Sure, that's a slightly hyperbolic expression so far.

But are you really going to be pedantic about the difference between "being genocided to the last man, woman and child", and just being ordinarily genocided? What difference does that make?

It's braindead hyperbole that gets brought up and immediately walked back every time it's used. "Genocide doesn't necessarily mean killing, even though that's the meaning that was deliberately implied!"

They're killing plenty too, don't worry.

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silverionmox@reddit

Except that's not what /u/alexpander4

[+1] said. They said that they were being "genocided to the last man, woman, and child."

Sure, that's a slightly hyperbolic expression so far.

But are you really going to be pedantic about the difference between "being genocided to the last man, woman and child", and just being ordinarily genocided? What difference does that make?

It's braindead hyperbole that gets brought up and immediately walked back every time it's used. "Genocide doesn't necessarily mean killing, even though that's the meaning that was deliberately implied!"

They're killing plenty too.

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Alexpander4@reddit

It tends to go pretty slowly if you just use artillery and foot soldiers looting and burning as they go. It also causes morale issues (see the Vietnam war). Detaching your soldiers from the death they cause using drones is a partial solution. However another nation about fifty years ago was faced with the same logistical problems and they found a deeply unpleasant yet effective solution.

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IsNotACleverMan@reddit

However another nation about fifty years ago was faced with the same logistical problems and they found a deeply unpleasant yet effective solution

Is this a reference to Nazi Germany? I think you need to check your timeline. And also your head because you're saying some crazy stuff.

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robiinator@reddit

It's not that crazy, the Israeli command uses their propaganda playbook very well

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arcehole@reddit

Why are there so many bosnians left after the Bosnian genocide? If Serbia wants to kill them all they would have done it already. Why only kill 30k people.

That's what you sound like. Genocide doesn't mean killing every individual at every opportunity. Its "in part or in whole"

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xthorgoldx@reddit

Genocide doesn't mean killing every individual at every opportunity

...

being genocided to the last man, woman and child

[-]

Plus-Age8366@reddit

Give them a break. The Palestinian cause doesn't attract the brightest bulbs.

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beefprime@reddit

Bog standard genocide denial, "why are there so many native americans left", "why are there so many Armenians left", and for that matter "why are there so many Jews left".

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ThrowAwayRaceCarDank@reddit

As far as I'm aware, Settlers only exist in the West Bank. There have no Settlers in Gaza since Israel pulled out in 2005.

[-]

Joliet_Jake_Blues@reddit

You get all your news from memes

The problem with getting your news from memes is it makes you say crazy people stuff

[-]

Temporal_Somnium@reddit

Does the money go to Israel?

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Joliet_Jake_Blues@reddit

Antisemitism is back and the kids just can't get enough!

Yay TikTok!!

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Neuroprancers@reddit

It's almost as if one is a liberal democracy where the people can voice their opinion and vote, and the other is not.

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Stubbs94@reddit

People (Palestinians) have been arrested for Facebook posts by Israel in the occupied territories.

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Ramboso777@reddit

People (palestinians) get killed by their countrymen if they dare to suggest that maybe that should coexist with Israel

[-]

Cabo_Martim@reddit

source?

[-]

Volfegan@reddit

r/Palestinian_Violence

[-]

xland44@reddit

People (Humans) have been getting arrested for inciting hate and calling to murder people, in many first world democratic countries. That the medium of transmitting death threats and inciting hate was Facebook rather than a physical letter is besides the point.

Example A

Example B

And here's an example from ireland too:

Example C

All with a five second google search.

[-]

Stubbs94@reddit

Can you give any examples of Israelis being arrested for inciting violence against Palestinians?

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xland44@reddit

Yes, of course

https://m.jpost.com/israel/ben-gvir-convicted-of-inciting-to-racism

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Stubbs94@reddit

Mate... That dude is a minister now in the current government. And that was 17 years ago.

[-]

xland44@reddit

I find Ben Gvir to be abhorrent and should think he should rot in a cell; I don't think a former convict getting into a position of power implies a lack of democracy however.

Regarding it being 17 years ago, I said it was off the top of my head, as it's a famous example; you can use google just like me. Here's another case I remember off the top of my head, for example.

There are plenty of cases from the recent war as well, but your question was more of a failed 'gotcha!' attempt at proving something. Yes, arresting or convicting people for hatred and incitement has been going on for a long time, and it's not because of religion or nationality or some method of oppression. Don't call to murder people and you won't get arrested, it's really that simple and similar clauses exist in many first world democracies in the world.

[-]

sebygul@reddit

He isn't in power in spite of his hateful opinions, he's in power because of them.

[-]

sebygul@reddit

yeah this guy faced really serious legal consequences, like "getting promoted to one of the most powerful men in Israel". Really does not help your point

[-]

superpie12@reddit

Anti-semitism plain and simple. They hate Jewish people and this very thinly veiled example is just another one to add to the pile.

[-]

ComprehensiveProfit5@reddit

Palestinians can never win. Whenever they try to resist peacefully, this is the type of nonsense that comes out.

[-]

Itakie@reddit

I mean...

People always say it's the only democracy in the region. It's according to many one of the top reasons to help the country. Then shouldn't we view the county and her people differently than a more or less violent dictatorship from Hamas?

Isn't the whole deal of a democracy that the people got the power? If the US votes in Trump and he starts an unprovoked war with China, should we not blame the people of the US who voted in Trump? And if there is no big protest going on, 80% of the US is supporting Trump and the war isn't it then a war of the people?

You could even make the argument about apartheid and genocide. If there is a case going on, should we view Israel as a normal country? Think about cases with famous people. Should Disney just start their new movies with Kang while Jonathan Majors got some damming allegations against him? Nah, of course they stopped everything and waited for the legal system. What shouldn't we hold countries accountable in the same way? Especially democracies.

[-]

KardalSpindal@reddit

Currently many Palestinian universities are bombed out shells, Palestinian academics and students are dying. Boycotting Israeli universities is hardly an inconvenience in comparison.

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why_i_bother@reddit

Palestinians should not be held accountable for the actions of Hamas. But Israeli citizens, students and professors must pay for the actions of their government?

Yes. Hamas is autocratic, totalitarian government without empowerment from the people. Israel is totalitarian, apartheid government with empowerment from the people.

Hence the difference.

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Stubbs94@reddit

This is the exact same as what was done to South Africa during apartheid.

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Zosimas@reddit

Are sanctions against Russia a "hateful nonsense" too?

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Known_Week_158@reddit

Why is it acceptable to demand the collective punishment of Israelis for the actions of its government (boycotting Israeli universities), but the moment someone says UNRWA shouldn't be funded because of what some of its members have done and said on social media, that's wrong?

[-]

Joliet_Jake_Blues@reddit

It took me 6 months to accept that the double standards Israel is being held to is nothing but a coordinated propaganda attack from bigots, and a ton of people too stupid to think for themselves parroting social media

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robiinator@reddit

6 months to come to a weird-ass conclusion is a weird flex. There is a genocide going on.

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Joliet_Jake_Blues@reddit

tHErE iS a gENoCiDe GoINg On

a ton of people too stupid to think for themselves parroting social media

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robiinator@reddit

"think for themselves" aka use evidence to build their world view?

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Joliet_Jake_Blues@reddit

Yes, evidence like the ICC refusing to call it genocide

You're either a bigot or a useful idiot, those are your choices. Civilians die in wars. 600k German civilians died in WWII. Great Britain purposefully targeted civilians. Nazi Germany wasn't a victim of genocide.

Japan killed as many as 10 million civilians in Asia, most historians don't consider it genocide.

Close TikTok and open a history book

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robiinator@reddit

Japan killed as many as 10 million civilians in Asia, most historians don't consider it genocide.

You're joking right? Historians do call the Japanese slaughters genocides.

[-]

Joliet_Jake_Blues@reddit

You admitted the ICC hasn't called it a genocide and then doubled down on your bigoted bullshit

Don't misunderstand me, Israel's far right government is bad. But Palestine is worse. If you had an IQ above room temperature you'd be able to think in nuance instead of binary

[-]

robiinator@reddit

I just did the ICC hasn't called it such, that doesn't mean it isn't a genocide. Learn how to think, please.

Israel is way worse. It is a government, not a terrorist organisation like Hamas, yet it acts like one. Israel kills babies, international humanitarian aid organisations in marked vehicles, red cross and journalist. Plus Israeli snipers aim for children's heads.

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Joliet_Jake_Blues@reddit

40,000 Palestinians have been killed. If 4000 of them were combatants that'd be a normal death toll for urban warfare according to the UN. 9 civilians die for every combatant in urban warfare.

US intelligence estimates about 1.5 civilians are dying for every combatant in Gaza.

In cities in Iraq the US killed roughly 3 civilians for every combatant. No one called that a genocide because America isn't a Jewish nation, and Iranian trolls didn't have a foothold on social media like they do today (plus Iran didn't like Iraq)

You're like a Trumper who puts no thought into what you parrot and have repeated it so many times you believe it's true (when even the ICC which is only relevant when it's calling something a genocide, isn't calling this a genocide)

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robiinator@reddit

Over 20,000 children. I'm sorry you think that's acceptable, that's actually vile. Now go away

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Mantiskindenspines@reddit

UN says otherwise. They cut the dead child estimate in half in June. And yes, that's acceptable to me either number. https://www.cfr.org/blog/un-halves-its-estimate-women-and-children-killed-gaza

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robiinator@reddit

That was in May

[-]

slickweasel333@reddit

I think it's a little different when UNRWA buildings were literally sharing their utilities with the Hamas tunnels underneath. There's no way they didn't know about that.

[-]

flastenecky_hater@reddit

The tunnels run basically under everything in the Gaza. Schools, hospitals, government building or regular houses (even seen a photos of kids room with a tunnel entrance), there’s no discrimination to what could be used as a tunnel entrance.

And that’s exactly when the international law and Geneva Convention get convoluted. Striking the aforementioned infrastructure is indeed a war crime as they are considered protected building, however, the moment such buildings are used for military activity, they lose the protected status (since it’s also a war crime to use such buildings).

Perfidy is also high on the Hamas agenda and that’s how easily you can get civilians killed.

[-]

slickweasel333@reddit

All very good points, but infrastructure connecting the tunnels to UNRWA HQ tells us there had to be some level of collusion.

[-]

IsNotACleverMan@reddit

Yeah, these tunnels weren't just underneath these buildings. There were entrances to them in the buildings, they shared utilities, there was shared storage, etc.

[-]

Paradoxjjw@reddit

Lmao. Yeah I heard that tale before, with the hospital they sieged. Israel never could prove that there was an entrance to a hamas HQ in that hospital. The best they could do was a tunnel entrance a street away not even close to the hospital

[-]

flastenecky_hater@reddit

Just today Israel posted another photo of a tunnel entrance right in a child room. Though, I already expect an answer like “it’s a fake/they put it there” or some other bullshit.

[-]

Paradoxjjw@reddit

Is this yet another hole they claim to be a tunnel then show no footage entering the tunnel or from inside the tunnel? Are they trying that bullshit again? I've seen this claim from them so many times now, I'm pretty sure at this point they brand every single damn crawlspace a hamas tunnel. Then they don't show any footage from inside because they know anyone who has ever lived in a house with a crawlspace would instantly recognise it as one.

I've seen the footage you talk of, they have a video in which you can't see it and then they take a picture from a very shallow angle to make sure you can't actually look in and see whether or not it is an actual tunnel. But don't worry! They zoom in on a teddy bear! Clearly that teddy bear means it is the biggest hamas tunnel ever found guys! No need to actually aim the camera into the tunnel and show it from several angles to show it's actually a tunnel!

Why their hesitation to show a proper video rather than a crappy shallow angle photo? Oh wait, I know, I need only remember this is the country that tried to claim a calendar was a "hamas hostage guard list", it's because their narrative doesn't like up with reality.

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flastenecky_hater@reddit

It’s rather clear it’s a tunnel entrance. Could be some basement of the house but then it raises the question. Why would you even consider putting that in a child’s room? It’s definitely not safe.

So no matter how hard you attempt to talk it out of it, this is clearly an entrance to underground spaces.

[-]

robiinator@reddit

Do you mean the one where they pointed to a calendar and called it a Hamas member list?

[-]

Paradoxjjw@reddit

Yup

[-]

IsNotACleverMan@reddit

The hospital that hamas hit with a rocket attack that got blamed on Israel somehow? That one?

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loggy_sci@reddit

You’re treating it as a foregone conclusion but I disagree. Could Hamas have been connected to their power without UNRWA knowing? Maybe some of the employees implicated in Oct 7th did it. Maybe Hamas started taking power after UNRWA staff was evacuated on Oct 12.

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Paradoxjjw@reddit

Maybe some of the employees implicated in Oct 7th did it.

The ones who had no evidence against them provided, showing Israel made shit up?

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slickweasel333@reddit

It's possible there wasn't collusion, but we have witnesses that say otherwise.

“In 2014, part of the parking lot at the Unrwa headquarters in Gaza began sinking, likely from a Hamas tunnel dug beneath. ‘No one talked about what was causing the collapse,’ a former Unrwa official said, “but everyone knew.’”

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-israel-attack-united-nations-unrwa-0ec8d325

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loggy_sci@reddit

For sure. I’m not saying it’s not collusion, just that there is a possibility that it’s not. thanks for the article. I’ll look more into it.

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slickweasel333@reddit

I understand. I'm agreeing with you that it's possible, however unlikely.

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flastenecky_hater@reddit

I'd also say that Egypt should be put into check. There are only two possible routes for weapons and ammunition to be snuggled in (via tunnels under the border or sea route).

Billions of euros just can't disappear like that without seeing any result in the affected area.

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bako10@reddit

There is discrimination. They deliberately place them in sensitive civilian infrastructure - they don’t do it indiscriminately.

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Paradoxjjw@reddit

Have you seen the population and tiny size of gaza? You cant turn your head without swinging your nose into civilian infrastructure. Thats what happens when a fascist ethnostate like Israel turns the place into a concentration camp

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Ramboso777@reddit

Have you seen the population and tiny size of gaza? You cant turn your head without swinging your nose into civilian infrastructure.

Maybe then don't use them to shield yourself?

fascist

Lmao

ethnostate

20% of citizens are arabs, and jews hails from all places in Europe, MENA and Ethiopia.

concentration camp

I wonder why the border with Egypt was closed too

[-]

Paradoxjjw@reddit

Maybe then don't use them to shield yourself?

Israel literally uses palestinian children as human shields.

Lmao

Good to know i am right about Israel being fascist.

20% of citizens are arabs,

With fewer rights than Jewish citizens.

I wonder why the border with Egypt was closed too

Because Israel demands it be closed.

[-]

Ramboso777@reddit

Good to know i am right about Israel being fascist.

Nah, I just lolled

With fewer rights than Jewish citizens

Arguably with more rights, since they aren't forced to join the army, and anyway they llive in better conditions than any other arab state, except maybe Bahrain and the likes. Also, Palestine would be an ethnostate, many arab states are ethnostates, that's not and issue for you?

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Paradoxjjw@reddit

Blatant lies, why am i not surprised. Theyre second class citizens that are openly discriminated against by the state and have laws written specifically saying they have fewer rights than Jews.

[-]

ThrowAwayRaceCarDank@reddit

Provide us with some of those laws, then. If what you're saying is true it should be easy.

[-]

Paradoxjjw@reddit

https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-nation-state-law-bill-explained-apartheid-netanyahu-democracy

https://www.hrw.org/reports/2008/iopt0308/4.htm

The first one specifically declares anyone who isn't Jewish to be second class citizens. The second is government policy excluding arab Israeli from being able to own/lease land the way Jewish Israeli can, heavily restricting their opportunities.

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Plus-Age8366@reddit

Imagine being pro-Palestine and accusing Israel of being a fascist ethnostate.

[-]

Paradoxjjw@reddit

Israel literally prides itself on being an ethnostate buddy. The nationstate law they passed a few years was them literally taking the mask off and admitting it

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Plus-Age8366@reddit

Buddy, Palestine is a self-declared Arab Muslim state, just like the 25+ other states in the Arab League. Getting your panties in a twist about Israel being Jewish is just another hypocritical double standard.

[-]

Paradoxjjw@reddit

Imagine going to bat for a fascist ethnostate because you hate muslims

[-]

Plus-Age8366@reddit

LOL, thanks for not disputing Palestine is a fascist ethnostate. How embarassing.

[-]

Paradoxjjw@reddit

Whatever helps you support a fascist ethnostate buddy. You'd be hateful enough to join hamas if you weren't already enamoured with Israel.

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ThePlaymakingToast@reddit

Why is it acceptable to demand the collective punishment of Israelis

Stop the appropriation right there. Palestinians are the ones being collectively punished by getting mass murdered and with an active genocide against their people. Israelis aren't collectively punished. Boycott is a form of protest and everyone is free to choose what to protest for. It's not antisemitism, if you boycott Israeli economy, politicians and Israeli influence.

Your comment is a typical rage bait pro genocide enjoyer. Imagine the audacity to compare a simple boycott at a university to 40.000 innocent dead people and both are called collective punishment.

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WouldbangMelisandre@reddit

What genocide?

[-]

That_Mad_Scientist@reddit

📸

[-]

WouldbangMelisandre@reddit

Still no genocide here 🫤

[-]

robiinator@reddit

Is that why there's an ICJ order for the arrest of Netanyahu?

[-]

WouldbangMelisandre@reddit

No such thing

[-]

IsNotACleverMan@reddit

Appropriation? The Palestinians have a right to claim collective punishment but Israel doesn't, just as a matter of right? Double standards much?

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ImHereToFuckShit@reddit

Do you consider Palestine and Israel to be the same? Should they be treated the same on an international level?

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IsNotACleverMan@reddit

No, you should judge each instance distinctly. I took issue with the idea of 'appropriating' collective punishment as if any one country or people has the exclusive right to claim that.

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ImHereToFuckShit@reddit

You called it a double standard, which would imply you believe they should be held to the same standard. So, should Palestine and Israel be considered the same in the eyes of the international community?

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IsNotACleverMan@reddit

? My entire point is that saying Palestinians have a right to claim collective punishment but that Israelis do not is a double standard. Each should be able to claim collective punishment when relevant. I don't know what gotcha you're trying to establish here.

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ImHereToFuckShit@reddit

It's not a gotcha, it's a requirement for something to be a double standard. You wouldn't call it a double standard that a child can't legally buy alcohol but adults can.

Do you think we should hold Israel and Palestine to the same standard?

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MysticValleyCrew@reddit

"Israeli Influence" extends to Jews, so it's OK to boycott them? Is that what you're trying to say? Now talk about the globalists. It's cool, you can take the mask off.

[-]

ThePlaymakingToast@reddit

Israel ≠ Jews the same way Hamas ≠ Palestinians

[-]

MysticValleyCrew@reddit

Of course. The person I was responding to was half a step away from justifying boycotting Jews in general when they mentioned boycotting "Israeli Influence", which usually refers to diaspora Jews when it is said that way.

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ThePlaymakingToast@reddit

Of course. You were half a step away from justifying boycotting Jews in general when you mentioned boycotting "Israeli Influence", which usually refers to diaspora Jews when it is said that way. I apologize if that was not your intent.

That's just your brainwashed ass projecting that. Israel is the same as Nazi Germany, except Germans are predominantly Christian. Criticism towards Nazi Germany isn't interpreted as hate towards Christians. Obviously people want to make you believe that, bc there's propaganda and malicious intent by the Israeli government and their influence. Let me reiterate:

Israel = European colonialists, who stole land from the real judean genetic descendants, now called Palestinians or semites.

Jews = religious people who believe in the Thora.

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MysticValleyCrew@reddit

There it is.

[-]

ThePlaymakingToast@reddit

Let's feed you some basic information

OK, let's break this down. You are actually saying "The real semites are Palestinians"??

Semitic people or Semites is an obsolete term for an ethnic, cultural or racial group[2][3][4][5] associated with people of the Middle East, including Arabs, Jews, Akkadians, and Phoenicians

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people

Next one:

I'm not even gonna get into the whole "Jews are European colonizers" bit since that's just revisionist.

I didn't even say Jews, I said European colonialists. Jews is not synonymous with Europeans.

Also

not to mention the fact that many Jews are not religious, since Judaism is also an ethnicity

The word Judaism is used to refer to the religious people who believe in the Thora. The word you're looking for is Semites. You also don't seem to understand transitive logic. All Jews are Semites, not every Semite is a Jew.

[-]

Security_Breach@reddit

You also don't seem to understand transitive logic

The word you're looking for is proper subset.

A transitive relationship means that, if we have three elements (A, B, C), then if A relates to B and B relates to C that means A also relates to C.

For example, if A = B and B = C, then A = C.

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IsNotACleverMan@reddit

Israel = European colonialists, who stole land from the real judean genetic descendants, now called Palestinians or semites.

Most Jewish Israelis are of MENA decent.

Jews = religious people who believe in the Thora.

It's the Torah. I don't expect much from antisemites but still at least Google how to spell it.

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Ramboso777@reddit

Israel = European colonialists

Do you know that more than half of the jewish israelis was expelled from North Africa and Middle East and never saw Europe, right?

genetic descendants

You'll be surprised to see that Jews have clear genetic markings of being originating from that land.

Israel is the same as Nazi Germany

You know shit, if else you are the Nazi with your spewing bullshit

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Throwaway5432154322@reddit

Palestinians are the ones being collectively punished by getting mass murdered and with an active genocide against their people. Israelis aren't collectively punished.

"Japanese people are the ones being collectively punished by getting mass murdered and with an acive genocide against their people. Americans aren't collectively punished."

-you, ~february 1945, presumably

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ThePlaymakingToast@reddit

Are you comparing 1930s Japan, allies of the 3rd Reich, to Palestine, a country that's in such a bad shape, an extinct desease like polio resurfaced? These pro Israel pro genocide bots are getting more and more creative and delusional at the same time.

[-]

Paradoxjjw@reddit

Zionists and making the stupidest comparisons in order to try to link criticism of Israel to antisemitism, name a more iconic duo

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arcehole@reddit

You are not particularly smart are you? Or given your account name and post history could be a bot regurgitating propaganda

[-]

Iliyan61@reddit

if israel stopped occupying and violently attacking palestinians then hamas would lose most of its support but right now hamas and other militant groups are the only ones fighting for palestinian freedom and liberation.

israeli occupation is older then hamas and directly caused hamas to start existing. israeli violence is a massive recruitment tactic and reason people join hamas.

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bako10@reddit

right now hamas and other militant groups are the only ones fighting for palestinian freedom and liberation.

They’re fighting for their Iranian overlords, and the rich billionaires in Qatar. You’re naive if you honestly believe Hamas has the best interests of Palestinians in mind. They cynically abuse them as human shields and weaponize their suffering while perpetuating the conflict through all available means, while the only viable way forward is normalization between Israelis and Palestinians, since neither group will ever leave, clinging to the unrealistic hope that 9 million Israelis will pack and leave is exactly what blocks Palestinians from living a normal life.

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arcehole@reddit

Hard to get normalisation when Israel continues to colonise and ethnically cleanse the west bank and blame the Palestinians for everything that goes wrong.

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bako10@reddit

Yeah WB settlements should be frozen and gradually evacuated. I’m totally on board with that.

Don’t forget the conflict didn’t start in 67. Prior to the 6 day war there were no settlements, no illegal land grabs and the likes.

Still, everything I wrote in my original comment on the side of the Palestinians was still valid back then.

As much as I abhor the settlements, I truly believe it’s naive to think that unilaterally stopping them would somehow soften the Palestinians’ stance towards Israel. Not only naive, as it pertains to simply not knowing sht about the conflict.

[-]

silverionmox@reddit

Don’t forget the conflict didn’t start in 67. Prior to the 6 day war there were no settlements, no illegal land grabs and the likes.

There were Jewish militias all the way back to the 19th century.

As much as I abhor the settlements, I truly believe it’s naive to think that unilaterally stopping them would somehow soften the Palestinians’ stance towards Israel. Not only naive, as it pertains to simply not knowing sht about the conflict.

It's well worth a try. And if you want the moral high ground, it's a necessity.

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bako10@reddit

I said there were no illegal land grabs, not that there weren’t any militias.

Again, I’ll repeat myself: I am for freezing settlement expansion and gradual evacuation of settlers.

I simply require some kind of guarantee from the Palestinians that they would go through with this. Again, see what happened in 2005 Gaza as an example of what happens when Israel unilaterally gives land back to Palestinians. It’s viewed as weakness for making a unilateral concession which would embolden more violence against Israelis and only serve to further perpetuate the conflict. Once both sides make concessions, like the PA altering its blatantly antisemitic textbooks, or a reduction in organized terror, can the settlement freezing be viewed as an actual step towards peace and not as simply caving in to pressure.

Again, we are talking about drastically different sets of values from Western countries which may make it harder to grasp.

[-]

silverionmox@reddit

I simply require some kind of guarantee from the Palestinians that they would go through with this.

The constant sabotage of their state formation in various ways ensures they are unable to give that. So beware of setting impossible standards, things will have to be built up to normality again.

IMO a method that could work is that the Palestinian border zone is manned by an ally of theirs, the Israeli border zone is manned by an ally of theirs, so the contact point between the two consists out of two third party countries who, I assume, are more capable of managing any conflicts in a levelheaded way, without existential anxiety clouding their judgment. It requires both of them to find an ally they trust, but that's far easier than trusting each other.

Again, see what happened in 2005 Gaza as an example of what happens when Israel unilaterally gives land back to Palestinians.

... while maintaining all strategic military control points, retaining full involvement in civil administration, and reservering the right to perform military actions in the Palestinian areas at any time at their own discretion. Let's not fall for that PR.

It’s viewed as weakness for making a unilateral concession which would embolden more violence against Israelis and only serve to further perpetuate the conflict.

You can hardly expect them to throw a party because Israel moved its soldiers a few km.

Once both sides make concessions, like the PA altering its blatantly antisemitic textbooks, or a reduction in organized terror, can the settlement freezing be viewed as an actual step towards peace and not as simply caving in to pressure.

You're not going to reach peace with "the other guys should makes concessions first before we consider giving any".

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bako10@reddit

The constant sabotage of their state formation in various ways ensures they are unable to give that. So beware of setting impossible standards, things will have to be built up to normality again.

You’re basically saying Palestinians cannot exist without terrorism. Because of Israel. No, that’s ridiculous. Palestinians are just normal people and can and should be held accountable for their actions. Really, are you listening to yourself?

IMO a method that could work is that the Palestinian border zone is manned by an ally of theirs, the Israeli border zone is manned by an ally of theirs, so the contact point between the two consists out of two third party countries who, I assume, are more capable of managing any conflicts in a levelheaded way, without existential anxiety clouding their judgment. It requires both of them to find an ally they trust, but that's far easier than trusting each other.

Adding more actors into the mix is freaking obtuse. Seriously. Plus, good luck finding nations that would be up to the task. Who in their right mind would like to involve themselves in this in such a minor way?Unless you’re talking about a UN peacekeeping force. I invite you to read up on UNIFIL and UN resolution 1701, if you think the UN is up for the task.

... while maintaining all strategic military control points, retaining full involvement in civil administration, and reservering the right to perform military actions in the Palestinian areas at any time at their own discretion. Let's not fall for that PR.

Gazans had every opportunity to evolve into Singapore of the ME. They had bustling industries left by the Israelis that they looted in a matter of hours (because they, according to their own words, rather be hungry and reliant on aid over using Israeli things). Lemme break down your ridiculous arguments one by one. “All strategic military control points” - Gaza was given to Palestinians. The precise borders of that area long predate 2005, and it was given as a whole to Fatah. It is basically a beach, which means items naturally surrounded by higher ground which is actually not true. “Retaining full involvement in civil administration” this is a blood label. It didn’t happen, Gazans voted for whichever party they liked and the Gaza war was a completely domestic affair involving rival Palestinian factions (Hamas vs. Fatah). “Reserving military rights”. Well, in retrospect that was a pretty important fcking condition wasn’t it???. Hamas started shooting a crapload of missiles indiscriminately into Israel (this was before the iron dome) and kidnapped Gilad Shalit. Totally unprovoked. Do you see why that condition was important or are you blind??

You can hardly expect them to throw a party because Israel moved its soldiers a few km.

So, basically you agree with me.

You're not going to reach peace with "the other guys should make all possible concessions first before we consider giving any".

I explicitly said bilateral concessions. Yes, settlements should be frozen ASAP because they’re wrong. Terror attacks - the same. I suggest that one is reliant upon the other as to ensure nobody is breaking their agreements. If one side is a good boy and sticks to their end of the deal and the other side breaks it, then it’s on them and they’re responsible for breaking their terms.

[-]

silverionmox@reddit

You’re basically saying Palestinians cannot exist without terrorism. Because of Israel. No, that’s ridiculous.

You don't need to put words in my mouth.

Palestinians are just normal people and can and should be held accountable for their actions. Really, are you listening to yourself?

If they are, then why does Israel deny them normal human rights?

Adding more actors into the mix is freaking obtuse. Seriously.

I see you're not really open for discussion.

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arcehole@reddit

I'm not even surprised. Your take is what every liberal Israelite says. Claim the settlements are bad and must go, then say stopping them wouldn't really change anything ( justifying the narrative that settlements aren't a big issue contributing to their normalisation) then deny the nakba and ethnic cleansing in 1948(to again normalise ethnic cleansing and land theft by making it a given).

To end it claim that the issue is complex and people don't know a lot about it so you can get away with tactily condoning the situation as it is.

[-]

bako10@reddit

Thank you for your in-depth analysis.

Where did I say stopping them won’t change anything? I said doing it unilaterally is stupid (see 2005 Gaza pullout as an example). I believe cessation of WB settlement building is absolutely crucial for future normalization though it must be done in a bilateral manner as to avoid it being seen as weakness by Palestinians (which is how they usually view Israeli concessions). By mutual I mean dependent on reduction of coordinated organized terror (as opposed to lone wolf attacks which are obviously uncontrollable).

OK, you’re talking about land grabs during 48. I agree with you, and I take it back. Still, this predates ‘48. Arabs refused the Peel Commision which saw them get >80% of the land. They carried numerous pogroms against Jews, including against Jewish villages that have been Jewish for centuries. Thousands displaced from Hebron, masses fleeing Safed, the Jewish Quarter in Jerusalem, and the list goes on and on and on. Even during the Nakba there were many such pogroms against Jews, it’s just that the Jews managed to win militarily against all odds. Which is kind of representative of the divide between western understanding of the Nakba to Palestinian understanding of it. In the minds of Western progressives, the Nakba was ethnic cleansing where Jews set out to kick out as many Arabs as possible. In reality, it followed a long period (decades) of mainly Arab-led anti-Jewish violence. Read what al-Husseini, the quote literal Hitlerite Mufti of Jerusalem, wrote, for further info. What I’m trying to say is that the Palestinians were actively trying to create a Nakba for Jews but failed due to being a surprisingly weak fighting force. In the Palestinian narrative the main issue with the Nakba is the associated humiliation of suffering a monumental loss, and the subsequent failure to accept that loss. This is a crucial difference as it implies completely different methods of reconciliation. The Palestinians don’t want Israeli concessions. They want to score military wins against them to replenish their sense of national pride. They want to reverse the results of the 48 war as an end-goal in itself, not as a way to improve their quality of life. There is also inconceivable mutual distrust which is also responsible for seeing concessions as weakness. Palestinians view Israelis as weak and lacking resolve due to their utter lack of acceptance of Israeli casualties and the high price we pay for prisoner exchanges. This makes it easier to paint any such concession as resulting from weakness instead of actually aiming for peace, which is a major factor why I believe the WB evacuation should be in a mutually dependent manner that guarantees Israeli concessions are met with the appropriate response for Palestinian authorities.

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Known_Week_158@reddit

Not only is that victim blaming, it's also inaccurate. It's victim blaming because you're blaming Israel for all the times Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and the other terror groups operating in Gaza and the West Bank for the atrocities they commit.

Secondly, it's wrong. If Hamas is fighting for the freedom of Gaza, it'd ne holding elections and respecting the right to protest. And as u/bako10 pointed out, groups like Hamas don't care about Palestinians - they are foreign backed terrorist groups who see Palestinians as weapons in a war against Israel.

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Iliyan61@reddit

i’m not sure how the attacking force can be the victims but you do you.

i don’t support hamas nor do i think they’re good for israel but again considering the brutality israel has carried out against palestine the israeli occupation needs to be stopped before hamas can and should be dealt with. you’re entirely right that hamas now is a political entity that isn’t pro palestine but is anti israel and is a tool of iran but right now the only group who pose a threat to israel and give any power to gaza is hamas.

i mean your peace deal comment is absurd considering the deal itself was mediocre but also https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-never-said-no-to-2008-peace-deal-says-former-pm-olmert/ it was never flat out objected to but rather ran out of time.

the oslo accords were the last serious attempts at diplomacy and they resulted in the israeli PM being murdered and little else in terms of peace or reconciliation for anyone.

yes hamas are awful but they categorically are a consequence of israeli occupation considering that occupation started before hamas…

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bako10@reddit

right now hamas and other militant groups are the only ones fighting for palestinian freedom and liberation.

They’re fighting for their Iranian overlords, and the rich billionaires in Qatar. You’re naive if you honestly believe Hamas has the best interests of Palestinians in mind. They cynically abuse them as human shields and weaponize their suffering while perpetuating the conflict through all available means, while the only viable way forward is normalization between Israelis and Palestinians, since neither group will ever leave, clinging to the unrealistic hope that 9 million Israelis will pack and leave is exactly what blocks Palestinians from living a normal life.

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Tuungsten@reddit

So you're arguing that it's actually Palestinians that are occupying Palestine? That's not what an occupation is.

You're framing this like you're on the side of Palestinian civilians, but going after Hamas here doesn't make sense. Hamas isn't dropping bombs and blocking aid. Israel is committing genocide and you're carrying water for them.

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silverionmox@reddit

Why is it acceptable to demand the collective punishment of Israelis for the actions of its government (boycotting Israeli universities), but the moment someone says UNRWA shouldn't be funded because of what some of its members have done and said on social media, that's wrong?

There's typically a specific demand for those universities to stop supporting the IDF in executing their actions against Palestinian civilians attached to the boycott

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Scythe95@reddit

Why is it acceptable to demand the collective punishment of Israelis for the actions of its government (boycotting Israeli universities)

Iirc it's to stop the influence of the Israeli government with those universities. So to stop that there is certain propaganda within colleges. Atleast that's the case in the Netherlands

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Known_Week_158@reddit

Iirc it's to stop the influence of the Israeli government with those universities.

That goes back to what I said earlier. Is it justified to take an indiscriminate approach when handling something? If it is, and it seems like you are saying that, by your own standard, shouldn't groups like UNRWA be defunded? That was my original argument (which you only half responded to).

So to stop that there is certain propaganda within colleges.

Are you certain you worded your argument right - last time I checked, admitting to using propaganda isn't something people to if they want to help their arguments.

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Paradoxjjw@reddit

Why would UNRWA be defunded?

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cesaroncalves@reddit

You seriously just compared "the collective punishment" of Palestinians with no water, food and bombs, to the boycotting of Universities that spread propaganda?

Was this your point?

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That_Mad_Scientist@reddit

I'm sure hamas cares a lot about what western protesters think about them 🙄

Will y'all just keep going full steam ahead with the blatant whataboutism, or can we have a normal conversation instead?

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arostrat@reddit

What "collective punishment"?

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Throwaway5432154322@reddit

shouldn’t they also oppose Hamas

What? They openly support Hamas, dude… it’s part & parcel to their idea that this whole war is some kind of revolutionary moment.

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CapstanLlama@reddit

You mean 04/09/2024. She wasn't arrested on the 4th of April and neither she, nor dw.com, nor the protest were in the US. Nor, apparently are you, so why are you using illogical backwards US date format?

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IsNotACleverMan@reddit

This is America's world. You're just living in it.

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Totoques22@reddit

Yeah suuuuuuuuure

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zizop@reddit

I must say Greta is positively surprising me. She has been consistently rejecting the trope of an apolitical climate activist and is now getting involved in other demands to improve humanity.

As for the boycott of Israeli universities, I've been seeing some criticism here but it's fundamental to do so. In order to end the apartheid regime, it must be politically isolated. This means a boycott, and ideally even sanctions, of every Israeli institution. It has nothing to do with Israeli citizens, who must not be deprived of their rights. It's what we correctly did with Russia after the invasion of Ukraine, and what we did with South Africa to end apartheid.

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Mantiskindenspines@reddit

Supporting palestinians is the opposite of "improving humanity".

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zizop@reddit

That is an unbelievably racist response.

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Mantiskindenspines@reddit

No, it's a realist response. I don't support genocidal suicide bombers or their supporters.

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zizop@reddit

It's such a genocide that Israel is split into two territories, its ports are blockaded and Palestinians are settling in Israeli territory. Oh no, wait, it's the opposite.

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Mantiskindenspines@reddit

that's what happens when you're the aggressor of multiple losing wars, start waves of terrorist violence, and basically behave like palestinians have. you don't get nice things

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zizop@reddit

That's an incredible amount of bullshit which I don't have the patience to debunk right now. Go pick up a book on the subject first.

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Mantiskindenspines@reddit

It's historically accurate so maybe you need some lessons. Palestinians start wars and Israel wins them.

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xthorgoldx@reddit

rejecting the trope of an apolitical climate activist

And this is a bad thing.

Climate change is an apolitical, existential crisis. Why walk right into the stereotype of climate change being a just another trust-fund liberal political issue?

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EH1987@reddit

Climate change is anything but apolitical, what are you even on about?

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AtroScolo@reddit

Because that's exactly what she is and has always been. I suspect she's preparing for a career in politics, or the adjacent industry, NGO/Charity money pipelines.

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unpersoned@reddit

It's an exceedingly political matter. Just because it doesn't have to straddle the divide between right wing and left wing doesn't mean it is apolitical. No one who can do anything about it is going to do anything if they don't have political pressure.

It's the issue with industrial use of CFC and the hole in the ozone layer. Industry didn't care until there was a treaty in place to force their hand.

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NTaya@reddit

what we correctly did with Russia after the invasion of Ukraine

I 100% support freezing the assets of Russian oligarchs and distributing the money to Ukraine. This has been done, and it's great. But how was sanctioning the country's citizens helpful or "correct"? It's not like fewer resources are poured into the war now; it all comes from oil and gas anyway, or from taxes on local companies which didn't go anywhere. The effect the withdrawal of Visa/Mastercard, or Ford, or McDonalds is only creating very mild inconvenience and mild annoyance. If anything, it helped strengthen Russia's ties with the rest of BRICS because of increased imports and exports there. Not having a fast-food chain did not make country "politically isolated." Boycotting universities is a level of idiocy above that. If someone really wanted to help, they should've pressured the USA into not sending Israel military help (ha, as if that ever happens) or pressured all of the EU and nearby countries into not buying Russian oil/gas.

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Il-2M230@reddit

Bruh, this is reddit. I only know one or two places where they do refute you with sources and good arguments.

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silverionmox@reddit

I must say Greta is positively surprising me. She has been consistently rejecting the trope of an apolitical climate activist and is now getting involved in other demands to improve humanity.

I'm ambivalent. It has strong "I got bored and got a new hobby" vibes.

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curious_scourge@reddit

So what would be your demands, for the end of the boycott?

Withdrawal to 67 borders?

You think an academic boycott would work, to override direct negotiations with the PA?

Or would it just cause all the Jewish alumni of those universities to withdraw their support for the boycotting institutions

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highfivemelee@reddit

🤓🤓

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sovietarmyfan@reddit

It's interesting to see the Left actively protest against Israel and connections with Israeli institutions while they don't see a word about Hamas. Well, there are some isolated examples of people speaking up against Hamas but most of the Left is either quiet about it, or claim that Hamas are actually "the Palestinian people in resistance against Israeli occupation"

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Paradoxjjw@reddit

So tell me, which universities have direct ties to hamas? I can point at a university like Ben Gurion university that directly works with the IDF and supports them for example.

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Mantiskindenspines@reddit

Every single Gaza university is directly controlled and run by Hamas. Source: No fucking shit, everything in Gaza is controlled by Hamas.

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Plus-Age8366@reddit

The Islamic University of Gaza was literally founded by Hamas.

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Paradoxjjw@reddit

The university that's repeatedly bombed by Israel despite no military targets being there? The one few if any western university works with? The one Israel claims invents rockets for Hamas yet can't produce any evidence to prove the allegation?

Somehow that university manages to have fewer ties to their founders than israeli universities have to the IDF. Literally everything you and Israel accuse the IUG of is actually done by Israeli universities. All you zionists do is project

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Plus-Age8366@reddit

The one few if any western university works with?

Dude, don't lie about stuff that people can easily fact check. It's a waste of everyone's time.

"UG is a member of twelve regional and international associations and networks of higher education...The university has also developed partnerships with 142 higher education institutions around the world"

Somehow that university manages to have fewer ties to their founders than israeli universities have to the IDF.

"In 2006, Jameela El Shanty, a professor at the university, said that "Hamas built this institution. The university presents the philosophy of Hamas. If you want to know what Hamas is, you can know it from the university.""

You asked which universities have ties to Hamas, now you know.

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Paradoxjjw@reddit

Dude, don't lie about stuff that people can easily fact check. It's a waste of everyone's time.

Thanks for showing how western chauvinist your worldview is. You do know universities exist outside the west, right? Check the list of universities they affiliate with, most aren't in the west.

You asked which universities have ties to Hamas, now you know.

You still haven't done anything to prove any actual ties that are even close to what ben gurion has to the IDF.

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Plus-Age8366@reddit

Check the list of universities they affiliate with, most aren't in the west.

So you've pivoted from "no Western universities" to "most of the ones they affiliate with aren't in the West." Well done, another glorious victory for Palestine.

You still haven't done anything to prove any actual ties that are even close to what ben gurion has to the IDF.

You mean other than a quote from a professor who works there that says the university teaches Hamas' philosophy?

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Paradoxjjw@reddit

So you've pivoted from "no Western universities" to "most of the ones they affiliate with aren't in the West." Well done, another glorious victory for Palestine.

Leave it to a genocide supporting zionist to pretend "few" means "none".

You mean other than a quote from a professor who works there that says the university teaches Hamas' philosophy?

An unsourced quote provided by a guy who supports genocide? Yeah i am not trusting you on your word given how much you've lied so far to support genocide.

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Plus-Age8366@reddit

You said few if any. How many is few?

I don't support genocide. You're mixing me up with 70%+ of Palestinians.

An unsourced quote provided by a guy who supports genocide? Yeah i am not trusting you on your word given how much you've lied so far to support genocide.

I see you've lost the argument so now the programming is to just spam genocide accusations. Pretty pathetic, dude. You should quit while you're behind.

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Paradoxjjw@reddit

You said few if any. How many is few?

Go ahead, you claimed 142 western universities by acting like universities do not exist outside of the west. How many western universities have direct ties with them? Instead of constantly justifying genocide through lies how about you name a single fact for once? Though given how hasbara trolls are allergic to facts i doubt you can name any.

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Plus-Age8366@reddit

you claimed 142 western universities

I never claimed that. So incredibly dishonest. Like I said, you should quit while you're behind.

How many western universities have direct ties with them?

Look it up yourself. You have Google.

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Paradoxjjw@reddit

I never claimed that.

You literally named the 142 number in response to me saying that barely any western universities have ties to the IUG. Don't try to back now hasbara troll.

Look it up yourself. You have Google.

You're the one claiming a significant number of western universities have direct ties to the IUG

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Naurgul@reddit

You realise that there are no universities that have connections with Hamas institutions, right? The West already collectively sanctions Hamas.

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Plus-Age8366@reddit

There are many universities that have connections with Palestine.

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Thug-shaketh9499@reddit

There are many universities that have connections with Palestine.

With Palestine not Hamas.

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Plus-Age8366@reddit

By that logic, there's no universities that have connections with Likud, just with Israel.

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Paradoxjjw@reddit

Ben gurion university literally hosts IDF weapon development labs and is as a result a legitimate military target by Israel's logic, and unlike with Israel's claims we actually have evidence for this because they brag about it. Oh wait zionists like you don't want to admit that.

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Mantiskindenspines@reddit

Lots of American and EU universities host their respective military's research. What's your point?

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Mantiskindenspines@reddit

Hamas runs every Gazan university and likely some WB ones too

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TheGreatSchonnt@reddit

The answer is antisemitism.

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Mother-Remove4986@reddit

It's a shame really. She could have gotten engaged, gotten more knowledge an education and used her fame and name to actually influence politics and companies. She could have made a career in green and sustainable energy and social engineering for societal change..

And now she disrupts traffic, violate laws and stand in the way of positive development while fading into obscurity....

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HIVnotAdeathSentence@reddit

Swedish climate activist Greta Thunberg was arrested alongside several other protestors on Wednesday during a demonstration in Denmark. She had taken part in a demonstration at the University of Copenhagen to call for an academic boycott of Israeli universities.

Thunberg, 21, was photographed by the Ekstra Bladet daily wearing a black and white keffiyeh and being escorted off campus by police.

She had shared a photo of herself on her Instagram page with the "Students against the Occupation" group.

She's on to the latest trend now.

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CompetitiveSleeping@reddit

Oh please. Sweden's been very pro-Palestine in general since the 1970s. Knowing her background, it's very likely been part of her life since birth, like for me.

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IsNotACleverMan@reddit

Ahh Sweden, the most champagne socialist country.

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EH1987@reddit

Literally been a nosediving neoliberal shithole since the 90s but okay.

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Zurrdroid@reddit

Well, you can't say Greta was sipping champagne during the protest lol.

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IsNotACleverMan@reddit

No, but probably at home from all the grifter money she gets.

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cookingandmusic@reddit

That’s a good point why do Swedes hate Jews so much

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KalaiProvenheim@reddit

Judaism is when the modern State of Israel

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Paradoxjjw@reddit

Why are you so antisemitic?

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cookingandmusic@reddit

That’s exactly what I’m asking

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Paradoxjjw@reddit

You were asking us why you equate Jews with the state of Israel? If you don't know why you do something what makes you think I do?

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NorsemanatHome@reddit

Being humanitarian and anti genocide isn't anti semitic

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cookingandmusic@reddit

go look up what the PLO was doing in the 70s and 80s

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Assassinduck@reddit

I love how you refuse to stop intrinsically connecting all Jews to Israel's crimes. Keep it up, It definitely won't have terrible consequences /s

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Several_Cycle_2012@reddit

“Trend”

You “people” are hollow

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HKEY_LOVE_MACHINE@reddit

Yay celebrities staging "arrest" to get headlines.

It's funny how Greta went from being a rightfully concerned teenager about climage change... to performance arrestee, taking her information from TikTok, posing with a keffiyeh made in chinese factories by enslaved Uyghurs.

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Dry_Ant2348@reddit

she was always a paid actor.

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KrazyKaas@reddit

All swedish people should be arrested on sight.
/s

'Students Against the Occupation' are dissatisfied with the fact that, according to the group, the 'University of Copenhagen' continues its collaboration with Israeli universities and thereby "contributes knowledge that is used to commit genocide", it says. ( Greta Thunberg anholdt i København - studerende besætter bygning på Københavns Universitet | Indland | DR )

Will anyone explain this to me? Seems rather confusing since the university has many different classes in it colab with Israel; Do they mean all of them?

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zodwa_wa_bantu@reddit

Seems like a few people here don't understand that she's protesting varsities that support the state of Israel, not actual Israeli students in varsity.

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Cabo_Martim@reddit

they dont want to understand it.

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AravRAndG@reddit (OP)

Seeing the hypocrisy of some western media about this is disgusting. She was hailed as a hero when her idea was with them, now when her idea is against them, she got arrested. What a disgrace.

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Thebananabender@reddit

Even a broken clock is right twice a day

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IsNotACleverMan@reddit

Getting arrested is her brand. She gets arrested all the time. She makes money off of it.

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flastenecky_hater@reddit

Expressing support to Palestine right after the massacre of 7th October didn’t really help her either and then she doubled down on it. Not to mention complete disregard to what Hamas did that day.

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Airowird@reddit

She got arrested on plenty of climate protests as well.

Illegal protesters get arrested, famous protesters get media attention. This isn't the "gotcha!" comment you think it is.

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NonsensicalSweater@reddit

She's been arrested a bunch of times for climate related protests, one being quite recent, why do you have to create situations that didn't happen to clutch your pearls at? What do you gain my disturbing shit through misinformation? Or are you really this fucking stupid?

BBC News - Greta Thunberg arrested at Dutch climate protest https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68749936

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Known_Week_158@reddit

Not everyone holds a set of political viewpoints which match what is common for current political leanings. I fail to see the problem.

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AravRAndG@reddit (OP)

I don't have that problem, I have a problem with her arrest. She shouldn't be arrested at all.

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Known_Week_158@reddit

Why do you disagree that. From what little is present in the article you posted, it appears that Thunberg was preventing people from accessing a building - if you decide your right to protect overrides the right of a university student to go to a building they are allowed to use, consequences should follow.

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slickweasel333@reddit

It's funny because she was actually protesting outside a green project that was in collaboration with Israelis.

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Kekopos@reddit

She broke the law, she got arrested. Doesn’t really matter what Arav of India thinks should have happened, but thanks for sharing your personal opinion on these matters.

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hallo-und-tschuss@reddit

Please look up how often she’s arrested and what for, the one UN speech she’s famous for isn’t the only thing she’s done since.

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Efficient_Rise_4140@reddit

What's the hypocrisy? It doesn't even seem like article is morally loaded, so idk what you mean. Also, what media do you consume? I am curious because you are so critical of "western media".

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cookingandmusic@reddit

lol no she got arrested all the time for climate

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Doc_Hollywood1@reddit

Hey genius, she's been arrested over fossil fuels as well. Maybe do some basic research before opening your misinformed mouth.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/6/climate-activist-greta-thunberg-detained-twice-at-dutch-protest#:~:text=Climate%20activist%20Greta%20Thunberg%20was,protest%20against%20fossil%20fuel%20subsidies

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AravRAndG@reddit (OP)

I know about that stupid, I am against BOTH of her arrests. I talked about this because the post I made was of this incident, if the post was about that incident, I will repeat what I said, that is hypocrisy of media.

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DoitsugoGoji@reddit

"Seeing the hypocrisy of some western media about this is disgusting. She was hailed as a hero when her idea was with them, now when her idea is against them, she got arrested. What a disgrace."

"I know about that stupid, I am against BOTH of her arrests. I talked about this because the post I made was of this incident, if the post was about that incident, I will repeat what I said, that is hypocrisy of media."

That doesn't make sense though, she was arrested back when the media was buzzing with positivity about her and she was in the mainstream, she was arrested multiple times, your original post implies that this was the first time and it's because "she's an enemy of Western media" now.

Now you claim you know about both and that it's still hypocrisy of Western Media. Do you know what Hypocrisy means?

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tiddernitram@reddit

I disagree that when the article linked made headlines that she was buzzing with positivity in western media

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Zipz@reddit

So just to check. You think someone should be allowed to go force their way into your home and protest whatever they want and not be arrested for it ?

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Agitated-Quit-6148@reddit

Well, that's not exactly true. One segment of one brand of western media that caters to a specific audience held her up as a hero. 75% + can't stand her.

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pants_mcgee@reddit

You mean the artificially produced student protestor might not galvanize the entire world? Mein gott.

Though I do give her props for crossing the Atlantic on a sailboat.

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Agitated-Quit-6148@reddit

Ja ja mein fruend. I'll point out that she'd be thrown in prison or or stoned in gaza but....separate issue.

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doughboyfreshcak@reddit

The Omnicause strikes again

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TappedIn2111@reddit

You can have different ideas. Some make sense, some less so for people.

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RuneHearth@reddit

This is so deep

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Ramboso777@reddit

It's sad to see the natural progression of professional activists like Greta.

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empleadoEstatalBot@reddit

Greta Thunberg arrested at Gaza protest in Denmark – DW – 09/04/2024

Swedish climate activist Greta Thunberg was arrested alongside several other protestors on Wednesday during a demonstration in Denmark. She had taken part in a demonstration at the University of Copenhagen to call for an academic boycott of Israeli universities.

Thunberg, 21, was photographed by the Ekstra Bladet daily wearing a black and white keffiyeh and being escorted off campus by police.

She had shared a photo of herself on her Instagram page with the "Students against the Occupation" group.

A Copenhagen police spokesman told French news agency AFP that she and several others were acused of "forcing their way" into a university building and "blocking the entrance."

Series of protests

The University of Copenhagen is one of many tertiary education institutions around the world that has seen student protests against university cooperation with Israel. Protestors seek to draw attention to the high number of civilian casualties in the Gaza Strip and occupied West Bank.

Critics have also highlighted the environmental cost of Israel's invasion of Gaza following the October 7 Hamas attacks on Israelis civilians.

Thunberg also joined a protest in Malmö, Sweden, in May, over the decision to allow Israel to compete in the Eurovision Song Contest. She was also arrested in the Netherlands in June as part of a climate protest.

es/jcg (AFP, Reuters)

Maintainer | Creator | Source Code
Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot

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azriel777@reddit

Amazing how much free time you have when you have rich parents covering for you.

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NorsemanatHome@reddit

Good for her to continue to use her notoriety to highlight important issues. Denmark hasn't done anything to curb it's arms sales to Israel. All news is good publicity for the anti-genocide cause. It does feel like public opinion is swaying harder and harder against the Israeli government and hopefully that will push them to end their campaign of war crimes in Gaza and the west bank all the sooner.

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Neon_Priest@reddit

Becoming something of a herald for lost causes.

Nonsense protesting that didn't effect change or contribute to practical solutions was fine when she was a kid. But don't make it your identity. She's old enough now to run for parliament.

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newmikey@reddit

I didn't need to see that smug, round face this morning but I don't always get what I want I suppose.

Arrest and deport. Rinse and repeat. She's like cockroaches: hard to get rid of.

As to "Critics have also highlighted the environmental cost of Israel's invasion of Gaza following the October 7 Hamas attacks on Israelis civilians.", I cannot help but wonder what the environmental cost of digging tunnels and destroying the natural water sources under the whole Gaza strip would be. Or, now that I think of it, the horrid chemical propellants and explosives used to build and fire rockets. Isn't that something the critics have an opinion on?

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Phnrcm@reddit

Well, it is a natural progression for leftwing activist to graduate from climate change to the next hot topic. It wouldn't be long until she emerge online with pictures of her holding the hamas flag and chant from the river to the sea like her peers did. Imagine the storm it will create, everybody will be so moved.

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