A different open letter to gun control supporters
Posted by Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit | Firearms | View on Reddit | 142 comments
I wanted to jump in here and provide some of my own perspective in light of recent events and posts. For context, I am male Mid 30s. I have been shooting guns since around 9 years old, and a gun owner all of my adult life. I shot for my university shooting team, I was a campus leader for the Empty Holster Project, and a Project Appleseed Instructor. I still compete to this day. I have long been a defender of the 2nd Amendment, as far as even alienating friends and family in the past, much to my regret. I have held many political beliefs over the years. Some will call me a flip flopper or spineless or whatever, but I call it growing. We should be able to learn and grow from things like our upbringing, our education, our life experiences.
To anyone that is looking to see if all gun owners are what many gun owners think that you think we are.
- watching innocent children get murdered sickens us and many of us are willing to do much to help fight this massive fucking problem.
- Some may claim that we have offered solutions to school shootings, but we really haven't, and for the most part, these "solutions" are just putting bandaids on the scratches near a gaping wound.
- For many gun owners, the idea of advocates for gun control supporting laws that they dont really understand the implications of is very grating. For example, the idea of simple AR15 bans makes no sense because there are many many other guns that are NOT AR15s but are just as deadly in the wrong hands. To put it in perspective, its like when women get justifiably enraged when men try to write laws concerning women's reproductive rights. (obviously not an equal comparison but Im just trying to paint a picture).
- Being the victim of a mass shooting, surviving a mass shooting, or losing a loved one to a mass shooting does in fact give you a very rare and unfortunate perspective on a situation no one should have to experience. I will not be the one to tell you to "Fuck off", because I value your opinion and I want to have the conversation with you.
- Gun owners have been burned by anti gun politicians in the past under the guise of compromise, and understandably may be hesitant to listen to your ideas, but please understand that the conversation needs to be a two way street. Gun owners have justifiable concerns about many of the ideas from the anti gun crowd, but not all of us are here to stonewall the conversation. Compromise is part of life, but compromise is a 2 way street.
- Some might call raising the issue of guns when there is a tragic shooting, but honestly is there a better time? It should fucking hurt to talk about why and how our children are being murdered. Many gun owners refuse to talk about it any other time.
- Some of us do support things like universal health care/mental health care, or requiring gun owners to lock up guns that aren't in ones direct control, or plenty of other reasonable things.
To the people in this sub all the time, this isnt me preaching to the choir, this is me trying to remind many of you here that you arent in a homogenous bloc, you need to look outside the echo chamber sometimes. Gun owners arent all republicans or democrats or nazis or commies. Gun ownership and self defense is a human right and many of us will not agree with you on nearly everything else in life, but that's part of being an American.
Please, lets have the conversations.
Limmeryc@reddit
Thanks for the post. Always nice to see a reasonable approach to the issue.
paleface_gringo_2@reddit
The only gun grabbers you'll find here are people that come here specifically to argue (usually after a tragedy). If any stumble upon this post I really don't see a reasonable conversation to be had. They'll just call names, post bullshit stats and act morally superior.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
This is exactly what I’m talking about. Chill the fuck out and stop being a wall. Be a window.
paleface_gringo_2@reddit
Chill out? Dude I am chill, take your own advice. I wasn't trying to attack you. I'm stating my actual experience with these conversations on this sub. I've brought several anti gun people over in real life, after having conversations and taking them shooting. But I have yet to change a mind online because these conversations never stay in good faith online. I have a feeling you never even meant to have a genuine conversation when you instantly felt attacked by me simply stating my experience.
Limmeryc@reddit
I'm a gun control advocate and am more than happy to have a good faith conversation. My experience with pro-gun folks seems to mirror yours: I rarely find any that act with any intellectual honesty or an interest in statistical evidence, so I can definitely relate.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
I’ve had those conversations as well and they are frustrating. But you come in here to lecture me about how no one will come here being reasonable, by coming in here being exactly that.
paleface_gringo_2@reddit
See, idk how I'm supposed to believe you even had intentions of a good faith conversation when you took my initial comment as some offensive lecture lol but whatever, good luck buddy
DrBadGuy1073@reddit
If you expect to have good faith conversations with anti-gun people on this sub you are sorely mistaken.
Limmeryc@reddit
I'm a gun control advocate. The only conversation I'm ever interested in is a good faith one. It does exist!
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
Again, it’s 2 way street. Why should they expect a good faith conversation if you automatically assume they won’t have one. Be the change
DrBadGuy1073@reddit
You expect too much from Redditors, the only anti-gunners who come here are generally to troll amd point fingers at us for being evil gun owners.
I've never made a bad-faith arguement here or called them names. I do not expect the same treatment from anti-gunners, only moderates.
TacTurtle@reddit
So present something with substance then instead of vague strawman arguments and nebulous "well you should compromise even though every previous compromise fucked your civil rights over" platitudes.
valhallaseven7@reddit
Psychiatrist here. That's out of the way.
Some follow on dialogue:
1) I survived columbine. Not that this gets me any weight in my opinion, but it counts for something. My best friend's big brother has his canoe split by a shotgun, not an AR. Banning certain guns is 100% a slippery slope.
2) this is so very clearly a mental health and sociological problem. This has very little to do with guns at all.
3) we should stop sending billions overseas and fund universal health care. We should roll dental, eye, and mental health into the healthcare model.
4) what do you think are reasonable restrictions on a negative right preserves by the US Constitution and affirmed by SCOTUS several times over? You made the comparison to "women's reproductive rights" (at least you admitted it wasn't the best comparison), but this is not enshrined in the Constitution and SCOTUS does not affirm this. To make a more accurate comparison, you'd have to describe reasonable restrictions on the 1st amendment for example. I don't think there are any reasonable restrictions or compromises on any of the Amendments... SCOTUS agrees.
5) even if we could agree on "reasonable" gun control, what's the point if mental healthcare is not readily available? This is like banning abortion while still failing to provide a robust safety net for everyone potentially involved (to make your comparison)
Could go on, but starting with that.
TomCollins1111@reddit
I’m curious about your thoughts on the role that SSRIs and other pharmaceuticals may play.
valhallaseven7@reddit
That's a tough thing to answer. SSRIs and many other medications are very effective and work well for a lot of people. Some people seem to not respond at all, or their symptoms actually worsen. Psychiatry is the least scientific of the medical disciplines. It's tough because I don't have data to answer with. And the data are likely not going to be obtained any time soon because of our limited understanding.
TomCollins1111@reddit
Yeah, I know they are a blessing for many people, but it seems that many of the adolescent perpetrators of mass shootings are on medication. But then is it the medication, or the illness that being treated. Tough questions.
Oxidized_Shackles@reddit
You don't need a degree to know that a pill that numbs your brain, in no way, magically heals the trauma you've experienced. To use pills as a do all bandaid for everyone's problems is a lazy, fucked in the head way to go about it. I know people want an easy, cure all but it does not exist for mental health.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
If you think that all psychiatric medications “numbs your brain” you have a clear misunderstanding of how many meds actually work. SSRIs work by stopping your body from washing away serotonin from your system. Basically allowing what serotonin that is naturally produced be grabbed up receptors longer than usual. For some people, this is a necessity to health because of chemical imbalances. Things like depression are a real medical condition and just like other diseases, sometimes they can’t just be beaten through force of will and therapy. I should know. I’ve been there and taken the SSRIs.
I have ADHD, I wasn’t diagnosed until i was well into adulthood. I was never the bouncing off the wall kid in school. I was the quiet kid who got in trouble for secretly reading the Hardy Boys under my desk instead of listening to the teacher. As an adult, I struggled to pay attention in college, only focusing on the things that were actually interesting. As I got older it morphed into anxiety and depression due to severe procrastination issues at work. I’ve had years of therapy but you know what changed my life for the better? Finally being diagnosed and provided effective medication. I’m more productive than ever, happier than ever. Saying people with mental illness needing meds is lazy and fucked in the head is quite reductive.
Oxidized_Shackles@reddit
None of what you said has anything to do with what I said. I'm glad it works for you. SSRIs dont work for the majority of the population. Hack psychels and Drs think it's some amazing cure all for mental disorders.
If you have childhood trauma, SSRIs don't do shit for you. If you have PTSD, SSRIs don't do shit for you. Only mental problems, exactly like yours, do SSRIs have a chance of helping.
You couldn't have proven my point better if you tried. And you have the ignorant mindset to accompany it. Just because it worked for you and your innate problems doesn't mean it works for otherwise normal people who have been exposed to trauma, which is the case for most people.
Trust me when I say I've dedicated years to psychology and cognition, so don't try to come at me with your one digit sample size and pseudo intellectual bullshit.
valhallaseven7@reddit
Psychiatrist here
Aktually 🤓
Current data and multi -year meta analysis show SSRIs to be effective for 40-60% of the people who take them as a standalone intervention. Combine this with lifestyle and diet changes and psychotherapy like CBT and that number soars to almost 75%. This is not insignificant, and is, by definition in stark opposition to your claim that "SSRIs don't work for the 'majority' of the population".
Clinical data also support SSRI use in anxiety and PTSD and also improves trauma symptoms. Why do you claim they "don't do shit"?
Additionally, new breakthrough treatments for depression like esketamine are all studied with the patient also taking an antidepressant. There is enormous efficacy and 5 year study done by Spravato showing its both safe and effective.
Do I need to continue? Or can you consider retracting your myopic statements?
TomCollins1111@reddit
I’m less interested in the 40-60% effective rate (which seems poor). For the purpose of SSRIs and mass shootings, I’m interested on the side effects of taking SSRIs. https://www.bmj.com/content/358/bmj.j3697/rr-4
Oxidized_Shackles@reddit
So am I. I can't believe you actually brought up CBT. The bullshittiest of all fields. It's late but I'll get back to you tomorrow. I wouldn't dare miss it. I'm in a few different arguments about our lord and savior SSRI.
valhallaseven7@reddit
Hah! I absolutely question your claim of being a psychiatrist but I'll bite. I'll even admit SSRIs suck. I'd love to hear what you do besides CBT and antidepressants. I'm genuinely curious. Also curious why you think CBT is so shitty.
This will be fun.
Oxidized_Shackles@reddit
I question your claim, actually. Can't trust anyone on here. I don't "do" CBT because all it is, is having someone lie to themselves. Sure, there are people who really think negative about normal things but CBT doesn't help someone who has been actually traumatized.
How do you reframe the negative emotions that come from your father whoring you out to be gangbanged by his friends? CBT is a joke, the same way SSRIs are a joke, for people with trauma. Everybody I know makes fun of CBT. It's all bullshit except for those who have a problem with... well, cognitive distortions.
Are you...a cbt therapist? Lol
valhallaseven7@reddit
In what way is CBT having someone lie to themselves? Hah...it's literally designed to help combat cognitive distortions, i.e. to combat the actual lies patients believe about themselves and replace it with truth. So, I'll ask YOU those questions. How do you reframe trauma? Do you prefer a specific modality? Do you utilize medications? What's your evidence based approach?
I'm not a therapist. I'm a psychiatrist. You keep coming back to trauma... That's fine and well, but only a portion of mental health can be looked at through this lens. You can't make blanket statements like "SSRIs are shit for the majority of people and don't work". That's just factually inaccurate if you zoom out from your trauma focused assessment.
valhallaseven7@reddit
This guy is right 👍 glad to hear you've found some answers to your struggles.
valhallaseven7@reddit
Respectfully, you don't seem to know what you're talking about. Indeed, one does need a degree to more fully comprehend psychopharmacology. Your comment demonstrates this.
Also, it is wise to not assume things because it's likely you're wrong. You've assumed here that psychiatric providers throw pills at people. This is simply false. Medication is one of many tools used in concert to form a comprehensive care plan. I lean towards the integrative space and thus work closely with a team who provide medical support including lab work to rule out organic causes of the mental illness. I have a dietician on my payroll who helps manage people's lifestyle. I employ a doctor of physical therapy and a licensed mental health counselor. Medication is just one small part of the job my friend.
Sometimes a pill literally does magically heal someone. one example of this is an adult with newly diagnosed ADHD. A stimulant improves their symptoms immediately I see it on a weekly basis. Usually all that other stuff is needed though. Be well
Oxidized_Shackles@reddit
You must live in an ideal world. Maybe a VERY well to do community. You don't seem to understand what the metal health scene is like in say, the south eastern US. A red state, at that. There are simply not enough professionals for 1 on 1 therapy. NOWHERE even close. And it never will be. SSRIs are the answer to that. Not to mention that SSRIs originated from science gained from a certain war's scientists. ....If you REALLY wanna try to defend this bullshit solution to our very real problems.
valhallaseven7@reddit
Oh dear... Are you really going to double down on your ad hominems and strawmen? I literally provided the data. Implying psychiatry is born from Nazi research is not only false, but is a great cause for questioning the validity of any other claims you make.
I work primarily in the Southwest in a red state, in a rural and Indian population. You're right, there are not enough mental health providers. But I'm not focused on that. There's plenty of people to help. President Reagan said "we can't help everyone, but everyone can help someone". Your fatalist attitude prevents you from enacting real change in your community. I know my worth. I know how many lives I've saved. I know how many I've failed to save.
Do you have childhood trauma? Have you had a negative experience with SSRIs? Do you need to talk to someone?
Also, there are many 1:1 telehealth services available. You can, literally tomorrow, be talking with a therapist virtually. Even a psychiatrist. Covered by insurance. I'm happy to give you resources.
HeloRising@reddit
Slim to none.
Setting aside the fact that there's not a known mechanism for such medications to induce the kind of violence involved in mass shootings, many people are on these medications who don't engage in mass violence.
That coupled with the fact that we either don't know if many mass shooters were even prescribed these medications nor do we know if they were even taking them had they been prescribed is a strong case against the idea that medications, whatever they may be, are not a meaningfully contributing factor.
TomCollins1111@reddit
Ever read the warning label of some of these medications?
HeloRising@reddit
Yes, I have.
I've worked in mental health for fifteen years and dealt extensively with them.
Nowhere did it say "may cause mass violence."
TomCollins1111@reddit
Nice spin. Do any reference suicidal thoughts or actions? Hint: I already know the answer.
HeloRising@reddit
What would my motivation be to spin anything?
I don't work for any pharmaceutical company, I'm training to be a therapist which means I'm not going to be able to prescribe any medications so no kickbacks.
Not for nothing, but suicidal thoughts or actions are not the same thing as planned mass violence.
Furthermore, those symptoms aren't entirely accurate in the sense that they don't cause these things to happen but what can happen in rare instances is someone who is already experiencing these thoughts and feeling starts taking these medications and they suddenly have more energy and focus because of the medication but before the mood stabilizing effects have truly set in. This can give someone the clarity and energy to carry out a suicidal plan or to focus more fully on thoughts they're already having.
They do not cause you to have thoughts you didn't have before. Medication cannot implant thoughts and desires in your mind.
TacTurtle@reddit
SSRIs are neither a miracle cure or the devil's bargain; they can help a lot of people but are too-often used as an easy-button for a doctor instead of what the patient really needs like long term coaching and counseling. This is just like prescribing statins and heart pressure medication when weight loss and exercise would be a better long term treatment.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
I think we agree on a lot here.
I agree that hardware bans are useless.
I agree that our nations problem with violence is rooted in mental health and social issues but as long as children are being shot to death, guns will always be part of the story, like it or not.
1000% I agree on all counts.
I know I’m going to get dragged for this but I guess that’s the nature of the sub. As far as reasonable restrictions, as much as I want to agree with the phrase “shall not be infringed”, I just don’t see the 2A surviving untouched if the only thing gun owners are willing to say is NO. I can get behind properly implemented things like expanding background checks (I like the idea of a publicly accessible check system, maybe an app for instant checks and private sales). Maybe expanded storage requirements, especially in places that don’t have any sort of requirement (I know about locks new guns come with). Maybe gun taxes like the Pittman Robertson act could fund the availability of proper gun safes for low income gun owners.
As for not specifically about guns, maybe a serious conversation needs to be had about the age of majority being raised.
It’s so aggravating to see the gun rights crowd say it’s mental health not the guns but then watch the same people torpedo any efforts to address mental health or other social issues.
Thank you for your insight and reasonableness
valhallaseven7@reddit
3) thanks for being brave in this echo chamber and speaking your mind. I agree there are some reasonable things to do that actually aren't restrictive on gun ownership despite what the NRA tells us. I'd support more robust training requirements as long as the training was "free" and readily available to anyone. I spent some time doing cool things in the military and so I'm not personally worried about that requirement 🤣 maybe my bias is making that seem more plausible
4) yeah, I'm conservative but the false machismo needs to stop in the GOP. They're cool with giving Israel billions every year for free, why not stop those funds and use them for healthcare here. Literally nothing else changes except that. A single layer system would cost $500 billion less per year then what we currently spend. Combine that with the cherry of the $30B we've sent to Israel since 2021, that's a significant discount. 🤣
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
Sometimes I question myself as to why I invite the flak I know is coming here but i honestly really tire of the few spaces for gun owners to gather becomes an echo chamber that tries to snuff out any and all dissent.
I like training. That’s absolutely another thing a manufacturers excise tax could fund. I’m tired of my tax dollars funding war crimes so if my tax dollars helped gun owners become safer and better trained, I’m here for it.
valhallaseven7@reddit
Not to make this into a different thing but yeah. "Judeo-Christian" is a nonsensical term. But it's entirely why we fund the war criminals. Somehow forgot who was responsible for convincing the pagan Romans to kill Jesus because he was perceived as an existential threat to fundamental Jewish beliefs 🙏 i digress
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
💯
needtoredit@reddit
These tragedies are horrible but guns are not the problem, mental health is. When this comes up all the news goes after the guns but never mental health because tackling the real issue is our countries real issue.
The undisputed leading cause of death in America year after year is Heart Disease. Why is that not on the news EVERY NIGHT? Because they know overweight America doesn't want to hear the truth about their Extra Large Carmel Dessert drink that is couched in being coffee or how eating from a place with a drive up window should be done rarely not often.
Ignorance is Bliss, nope ignorance is an unhealthy lazy lifestyle.
Jamal_202@reddit
Nope guns are part of the problem of a violent culture alongside mental health.
I see mental health thrown around as literally a cover. No evidence to suggest so and it’s used to deflect blame.
TomCollins1111@reddit
Very few mass shootings before the 80s. Lots of violent crime though. It’s culture and mental health.
Jamal_202@reddit
Ok. But guns are used to carry out the most deadly and violent acts. You can’t reverse your violent culture. But you can restrict firearms
TomCollins1111@reddit
No, you can’t restrict firearms. The 2A language is clear! “Shall not be infringed” it’s not “shall not be infringed much” or “shall not be infringed for this group of people” it’s “shall not be infringed.” PERIOD! Full stop.
Every year mosquitoes cause 2.7 million deaths, and less than 100 people die in unprovoked shark attacks worldwide wide. Yet most people fear shark attacks, and are mostly ambivalent to the threat posed by mosquitoes. It’s the same with mass shootings. They are horrific, but your chances of being killed in a mass shooting are very rare, but 37 people are killed by drunk drivers every day in the US. Let me know when you’re ready to support “common sense” car or alcohol control.
Jamal_202@reddit
Mosquitos are unavoidable. Shark fear was SIGNIFICANTLY amplified by a Hollywood movie. And the fact that sharks look scary
The 2A is not gospel. It’s not the word of Jesus it’s the words of a bunch of men. Men who did not have the foresight to see firearms becoming anywhere near as powerful as they are now.
Essentially you are saying that children being shot up in school is a price to pay because “it’s so small”
The US has a car problem and I’m in favour of massively reducing roads making public transport more accessible.
vegangunstuff@reddit
Yeah they only owned warships and artillery and cannons they used to fight the largest (at the time) empire in the world.
No way they could've foreseen...rifles.
Also, if you research the council of nicea you'll see the gospel is also written by men.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
It’s been hashed out so many times. You couldn’t have a privateer ship with cannons without government approval.
TomCollins1111@reddit
The constitution IS “gospel” it is the supreme law of the land. Our founders knew that weaponry would evolve, which is why they used the term arms, rather than muskets. Don’t like it? Fine, there is a process to change it, and it’s been modified many times since our founding. Until then it remains the supreme law of the land.
Here is I thought exercise for you. Since 2001 there’s been a heightened issue with terrorism. This violence is mostly perpetrated in the name of Islam. In this country, we also have the first amendment guarantee of freedom of religion. Why is it that after 9/11 we didn’t shut down mosques that we suspected of radicalizing people? Would you support that?
Jamal_202@reddit
Your founders did not know the future obscenity of the power of military weapons and firearms. And if you find the word of man to be gospel, men in question were leading a colonial genocidal state then that says a lot about you.
Because Islam and the words of the Quran are up to interpretation. Duh. Violent individuals have taken the religion and its words and decided that it means something to allow them to commit horrific acts of violence.
You should’ve shut down all mosques with any links to the attack. And yes I would’ve been in full support. They either come and condemn and agree to restructure and find its failings . Or get shut down.
TomCollins1111@reddit
“Linked to the attack” ok, I’ll support gun control for those people “linked” to actual proved gun violence. Look! We agree!
BTW, yes, the founder knew what was coming because there were early repeating arms.
Jamal_202@reddit
Nope. Fundamentally different things.
Islam isn’t inherently harmful and its purpose is not inherently violent.
Guns are inherently ACTUAL Weapons.
TomCollins1111@reddit
“Islam isn’t inherently harmful”
You must be male.
Guns are a tool. Nothing more. They can be used for defense, hunting, sport, and yes criminal activity. What’s the difference? Behavior, not the tool.
Knives were designed as a weapon to kill. Let’s get rid of them too right?
TacTurtle@reddit
~ 2-3x more people are murdered with hands and feet than rifles annually, 3-4x more with blunt objects like rocks or bats, and 5-6x more with knives.
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls
But yes, lecture us on how rifles are the problem and not the murderer.
Jamal_202@reddit
What weapons are being used to brutally Murder children at school?
TacTurtle@reddit
School busses kill 10-11x more people every year than school related homicides including mass shootings, so statistically speaking, a school bus.
https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/road-users/school-bus/#:~:text=School%20bus%2Drelated%20crashes%20killed,Traffic%20Safety%20Administration%20(NHTSA).
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/a01/violent-deaths-and-shootings
Jamal_202@reddit
The US has a car problem. Who thought? The same people who want to don’t want gun restrictions and think kids dying is a price to pay. Are the same people who fear the dems will “come for their cars”
TacTurtle@reddit
Let me make this very simple for you: you are 3x more likely to be killed by lightning than be child killed in a school shooting.
Jamal_202@reddit
Let me make this very simple for you. It doesn’t matter how much you minimise it. If we could stop the random chance of getting struck by lightning we would. We can minimise it but sometimes it unavoidable and just a thing that happens. Don’t go outside when it’s thunder and lightning.
Unless you are telling me that school shootings are acceptable and just a price to pay which you essentially are, then stop this nonsense and admit it.
Children are getting killed at school. Massacred at school. So stop with the nonsense of “it’s rArE!” It’s happening. And a certain political group and its affiliates don’t care its happening
TacTurtle@reddit
Basic application of even rudimentary common sense for harm reduction states in plain terms, the most efficient way to apply resources to reduce harm is to go after the most common causes of death - not the extremely rare statistical outliers.
For children 1-17 that is in order suicide, then motor vehicle accidents, then medical conditions.
https://schs.dph.ncdhhs.gov/data/vital/cd/2021/FINAL-2021-ChildDeath-Main-Report.pdf
Jamal_202@reddit
No. The most common sense application is to go after what can be stopped.
7 year olds aren’t killing themselves en masse. It’s predominantly teenagers committing suicide in the US. That needs to be tackled. I’ve already been over motor vehicles but Republicans will cry about that too. Medical conditions are a completely different issue.
Also. None of these are murder. One is self inflicted, the other is “accidental” and the next is a sad reality of the world. People get sick and we have to cure or mitigate their symptoms.
Any excuse to not tackle school shootings though right? They don’t happen often so you think they are acceptable enough right? The lack of morality or astounding.
TacTurtle@reddit
Get off your cross, we need the wood.
Jamal_202@reddit
Ok buddy ol pal. 😂
Technical_One181@reddit
Tell that to Britain considering they are dealing with "Zombie knives" and crossbows...
Jamal_202@reddit
Atleast in Britain we don’t have men walking into school’s massacring 10+ children.
TacTurtle@reddit
Were you not paying attention or something?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Southport_stabbing
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_London_Bridge_attack
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rackhams%27_stabbing_incident
Jamal_202@reddit
Were you not paying attention?
The London Bridge incident was a terrorist attack. Not a disgruntled gun toting madman. We had a lot of terrorist incidents over that period. As did Europe.
Southport stabbing was absolutely vile and horrific. But atleast the victim wasn’t worse. And it could’ve and would’ve been if he had a fucking Gun.
The Rackham’s incident happened ages ago. Should I bring up Sandy Hook which has more than triple the young child victims is Southport???
TacTurtle@reddit
About 23 years ago, knives were used in a terrorist attack that killed 2,977 people, yet you still allow knives unlocked in your home. More people are killed every year with knives than rifles, yet knives can be purchased by minors without a background check, secure storage, or training of any kind.
Do you see how ridiculously idiotic that train of logic sounds when you apply it to inanimate objects?
Jamal_202@reddit
I have no idea why you brought 911 into this.
If you have cultures that love violence then you breed a violent Society. In both the UK and the US. But culture can’t be reversed it’s gone. People are going to keep obsessing over violent media. Sabre rattling rhetoric will still be used to lash out openly against anyone people don’t like.
Most of knife crime in the UK is violent robberies and personal disputes. Not children being butchered in school. In fact that doesn’t happen at all
TacTurtle@reddit
Other than all the times it does - or do we just ignore all of the 518 stabbings in London schools and the 101 firearms found per this Met Police report?
Jamal_202@reddit
There is a distinct difference between a teenage boy bringing a knife to school to stab another boy. And a man walking into an elementary school and shooting up 10 little kids.
TacTurtle@reddit
Then why did Met Police still confiscate 101 firearms if the UK restrictions de facto banning legal firearms worked?
Jamal_202@reddit
It has worked. How many of these guns have been used to massacre elementary schools??? None. Absolutely none.
It’s youth related incidents. Gang violence. Not teens planning to massacre schools full of children.
TacTurtle@reddit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre
IllAssistance7@reddit
Or cars. Or planes. Or fertilizer. Or knives. Or chemicals. Or sticks. Or your bare hands.
This county was from its inception created to restrict government interference in the lives of its citizens. Trading our freedoms for statistically irrelevant problems isn’t ever going to convince my side of anything. And before you say those statistics could be me; I’m very well aware.
Band aid fixes for cultural and societal rot serve only to aid in contributing to the issue further. The more we bicker about what guns should be legal the more time we are wasting in solving the actual problem.
needtoredit@reddit
You want a cover, there is a direct link between mass shooters and serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRI) although you won't find that on the news because "this broadcast has been brought to you by Pfizer".
Jamal_202@reddit
There is no definitive evidence to prove this. SSRI are widely prescribed for everyday people. Correlation doesn’t equal cause.
needtoredit@reddit
Sheila Matthews lays it all out for you right here;
https://www.cga.ct.gov/asaferconnecticut/tmy/0129/Sheila%20Matthews%20-%20Cofounder%20of%20Ablechild.pdf
But by your logic the link doesn't really matter and since correlation doesn't equal cause so guns are not the issue.
I am going to move on for my mental health but want to truly and honestly wish you a long, healthy life and all the best.
Jamal_202@reddit
No. Guns aren’t the only reason for school shootings I never said that. But they are a primary reason.
DinoSpumonisCrony@reddit
I see you're flaired as a progressive over on the temporarygunowners sub.
No real conversation can be had about serving violent crimes without advocating for harsher penalties & ending cashless bail.
The starting point to solving the situation is really that simple: put (& keep) violent criminals behind bars. If you can't agree with that then arguing over anything else is moot.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
Sure I’m fine with that. If someone has been convicted of a violent crime, they shouldnt be released until they are rehabilitated by in the point that they can reenter society.
Not sure what that has to do with being progressive. I’m a progressive primarily in that I believe strongly in lgbtq rights, and in environmental issues, but like you said, not really topical.
DinoSpumonisCrony@reddit
I mean, it has a lot to do with it and it should be pretty obvious.
That side of the aisle has supported bail reform/cashless bail that allows violent people to commit assault and be back on the street within hours. They've voted for soft-on-crime DAs. They vote for politicians who do nothing to stop en masse, unvetted illegal immigration- of which we have gangs and criminals coming across the border. Support sanctuary cities.
Need I go on?
StorkyMcGee@reddit
So please explain to me how taking away my firearms will save lives.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
Exactly where did I ever say that?
TacTurtle@reddit
That is the fundamental contention of your post.
TacTurtle@reddit
I cannot think of a single piece of tragedy-induced panic legislation that actually effectively addressed the root cause of mass shootings (ie mental health, school security, etc), or that didn't substantially inhibit the civil rights of all the hundreds of millions of law abiding citizens that didn't decide to murder people this week.
If you can give one example of compromise legislation that improved civil rights access like that protected via the 2nd Amendment, I'll be surprised.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
Is universal storage requirements not a compromise? That’s a big issue with guns right now but it seems many gun owners won’t even accept that.
TacTurtle@reddit
If you don't have kids at home, then how would a government mandate for a shitty safe &/or trigger locks improve child safety vs locked doors, and how would you possibly enforce compliance short of searches that grossly infringe on right to privacy?
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
You do what the states with storage laws should be doing. Punish people who through their own lack of securing the gun allow a gun to fall into unauthorized possession.
Common sense dictates you can’t be in full control of even more than a couple guns at once, I know I have more guns than I can carry and the ones I’m not carrying or using are locked up. How is that a problem. If you feel your home is secure enough then if the law was appropriately written, then you should be fine. If your guns get stolen then maybe you were negligent in how you secured your home.
There is a way to do it right. And that’s the point I’m trying to make.
TomCollins1111@reddit
So let’s say we have a safe storage law. Man locks up all his guns, but his kid finds the key, is he responsible? What if they are stolen?
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
I guess the facts would have to play out in court. I’m not a lawyer. But you certainly have valid concerns as to where is the line drawn. Like many things there are standards for what constitutes negligence so I think it would be reasonable to apply those standards.
TomCollins1111@reddit
So by your own admission, safe storage is a reactive law that even when followed may result in charges for the gun owner? Yeah, no thanks. That’s not reasonable.
TacTurtle@reddit
That really isn't an answer to my question, nor is it a solution since the punishment is reactive instead of proactive.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
Plenty of laws are reactive but provide a punishment as deterrent. Most, even.
TacTurtle@reddit
So reactively punish the person that shot at school kids instead of everyone else.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
Or even both. Locking up a gun isn’t a punishment to a reasonable person.
Oxidized_Shackles@reddit
Fine. Why do you believe it is okay to pusmnish those who had nothing to do with the crime? I'm assuming you do not believe it to be a punishment?
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
I do not believe that requiring people to lock up unused gun is a “punishment” so answering that question is moot. Owning a gun is not a crime, but owning a gun should come with certain responsibilities and requirements for use. You are required to carry car insurance in most places so that your misuse of a car doesn’t financlly affect someone else. When you own a gun, you should be required to follow certain requirements to ensure that others aren’t placed at risk by your actions or lack thereof. I think that’s reasonable given that in a system of government like ours, stonewalling rarely works in politics.
TacTurtle@reddit
You are required to carry car insurance while operating on a public road, not private land or your house.
By mandating a gun safe, you are placing a substantial financial* and space burden on a civil right - especially if someone is for example a renter who cannot install a safe or locker in their apartment. That is similar to adding a $200 per person poll tax or requiring a $200 permit to protest at city hall.
Oxidized_Shackles@reddit
How convenient that it's moot to you!
This is so tiring, but driving a car is not a constitutional right... do you believe there should be a test before you can vote?
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
That’s not what moot means. It means I can’t answer the question of why do I think people should be punished with storage requirements. I can’t answer that because I don’t agree with the very wording of the question.
I never said driving was a constitutional right. I know it’s a privilege, which is why I didn’t equate gun ownership to needing a license. What I meant was that there are reasonable requirements that you must follow when you partake in a other have a higher than usual probability of injuring another party. I think gun ownership should entail similar responsibilities.
Comparing that to a test to vote is a false equivalency.
Oxidized_Shackles@reddit
It's not a false equivalency. Both are constitutional rights. Stop trying to dismiss the question. If the second amendment should have a test before being exercised, should the first amendment? Fourth? And who would even administer the test? Please elaborate and not embarrassingly squirm your way around the question with claims of bullshit false equivalency.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
I didn’t dismiss anything. You asked a loaded question. I never said anything about a test. You did.
Oxidized_Shackles@reddit
Maybe i misunderstood. What sort of prerequisites would you like for gun ownership that we do not already have?
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
I’ve been pretty expansive in another post, but long story short, expanding or at the very least enforcing storage standards. At the very least we should be able to eliminate children from shooting themselves or each other with unattended guns. That’s a bar so low it scraping the floor. If that means that guns must come with an safe or something more than the stupid padlock or something then fine.
We could expand the availability of background checks. Make it so that it easy free and convenient to do an instant background check on anyone that’s buying a gun, even private sales, maybe a free app.
We could make mental health care (and healthcare in general) literally free. We have plenty of funding available for BS so let’s put it to better use.
None of these things are unreasonable unless one is totally unwilling to agree to anything.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
Firearms-ModTeam@reddit
Attack the argument, not the user.
Your comment has been removed.
Oxidized_Shackles@reddit
I'm gonna give you another, less cordial reply as our good turtle here.
Fuck you.
How would you feel if you were punished because of something someone else did that you had no hand in? Make it make sense how it's the appropriate action.
Firearms-ModTeam@reddit
Attack the argument, not the user.
Your comment has been removed.
TomCollins1111@reddit
Be they can punish people now. Negligence? Gross negligence? And I should add, it’s still closing the barn door after the horses have come home. We have to deal with the root cause that makes a 14 year old kid want to shoot up a school in the first place.
valhallaseven7@reddit
My brother in Christ, respectfully, universal storage requirements already exist. We all have a drawer full of the locks that come with literally every gun sold by an FFL. It literally can't get any better than that. How would you force people to use them?
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
Asfaik, Only 27 states have storage laws. If some level of storage law beyond the locks being sold only with new guns, we’re in place, they could be enforced with some sort of punishment if a lapse in storage led to unauthorized access or use.
valhallaseven7@reddit
Fair enough. But would an additional punishment really be a deterrent for people doing mass shootings or gang stuff like this? I guess it would deter law abiding people from letting their kids have more chances at shooting themselves. Fair enough point.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
Obviously not a silver bullet as it were, but as far as the gun crowd doing something, it’s at least an olive branch imo.
TomCollins1111@reddit
Access is not the issue, the issue is that parents are not raising their children properly, we’re ignoring mental health, we’re pumping kids full of SSRIs. The list goes on. Don’t buy into their argument. They are wrong.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
Ok so we move the conversation to mental health. I’m fully on board with that and would prefer that route anyway. But the vast majority of gun owners fall into the same part of the political spectrum of people who will not move on the subject of expanding access to healthcare and other associated social issues.
If discussing guns specifically is a non starter, then we need to make serious changes elsewhere, that we never end up changing.
valhallaseven7@reddit
See my post below. This is almost entirely a discussion about mental health and social change. Guns make these events more deadly on average, but other than that, these events have nothing to do with the guns themselves.
Oxidized_Shackles@reddit
But how can you be sure the guns aren't sentient and simply going limp like woody from toy story when you enter the room? Checkmate gun nut.
valhallaseven7@reddit
That's actually probably the best argument you can make. How can I be sure there isn't a flying spaghetti monster orbiting the earth? Or fairies in the garden? I guess, like if my wife has an orgasm or not, we'll never know
TomCollins1111@reddit
We didn’t have these problems until around the 1980s. Curiously, that’s about the time that the ACLU sued the government to close mental institutions as well as the beginning of the SSRI craze.
StorkyMcGee@reddit
Ask black people is South Afrika how that worked out for them.
vtpark97@reddit
Criminals don't compromise nor follow the law. Any compromise just further limits law biding citizens 2A right.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
This is the kind of the argument that anti gun people latch onto as what all gun people seem like. It doesn’t allow for any useful response.
vtpark97@reddit
How can there be a reasonable response to something that is so absurd? 🤷♂️
I may sound like an old fart but it looks like we are about the same age group, and I want to keep this as short as possible.
In 1800s, most colonial households had guns. We don't even have to go back that far. In 1980's, nearly 50% of households owned one or more guns, but there was a little to no mass shooting committed by teenagers or involving children, so what changed in last few decades?
The main problem is people started losing faith in God. This has led to more problems:
Plus the media (including social media) affecting metal health of our children. And our politicians are allowing that to happen.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
You had my interest until you brought your god into this. I, and many many others do not need religion to be good people. I for one have had terrible experiences with Christianity.
Same with your gender roles. You don’t get to define how my daughter lives her life.
vtpark97@reddit
I'm a Christian so you can say I'm biased towards Christianity. And I'm sorry you had terrible experiences. There are plenty of good Christians and good churches but I know there are plenty bad Christians and bad churches out there. Yes, I have been to few. However, my main focus is my relationship between me and the God, the rest is just noise.
I also agree with the part that people don't need religion to be good, but I do believe the religion helps to set clear and firm boundaries.
As to the gender roles, you think you misunderstood me. If you have time, just google and read few posts regarding how Christian views on gender roles and family.
And your daughter can live her life however she pleases. However, it's your responsibility as an adult, a parent, and a mentor, to provide your daughter with moral and ethical guidance as her brain is still developing.
ButtholePatrol_@reddit
Too little too late your fellow gun owners up voted the crass and disgusting message that boils down to fuck dead kids and fuck you if your kid is dead, plus you’re my enemy… I mean. Y’all really showed some true colors. And you wonder why the creep of gun control inches ever closer every year. Maybe don’t let psychopaths represent you as a group.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
Yeah that was a hot take if I ever saw one. That’s what prompted me to write this, but unsurprisingly, it’s the infighting that will be our downfall.
ButtholePatrol_@reddit
I get it and I can tell you’re genuine. I’m a gun owner and it seems like we’re more similarly on same page, but I can’t take these people seriously when they act like they have no concept of empathy.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
Really so many of our problems can be traced to a lack of empathy. The “fuck you I got mine” mentality of so much of America is really one of our greatest failures.
ButtholePatrol_@reddit
Pretty much
DinoSpumonisCrony@reddit
I see you're flaired as a progressive over on the temporarygunowners sub. Here's thee huge ways "people on your side" (for lack of a better phrase) can help to reduce gun crime:
The main one: advocate for harsher criminal penalties & end cashless bail. More severe sentencing for violent crimes. It's really that simple.
Stop advocating for unfettered, illegal immigration & call to stop it. Not only does the modern wave of illegal immigrants typically not share the common values & morals we have in this country, they commit a lot of crime (look at the recent armed apartment complex takeover in Colorado). Illegal immigration also drives up the cost of living for citizens, to the tune of >$100 billion a year. Loss of jobs, higher housing and medical costs = people feeling hopeless = more suicides, more people at each other's throats (possible gun violence).
End the fear mongering that every centrist/conservative is an "evil fascist Nazi." Denounce the media/politicians/academia when they use this language. They turn all their voters & viewers into hammers who only see nails.
I know this does not pertain to this particular school shootings necessarily, but it does relate to crime in this country. We cannot have a high-trust society with any of the above 3 things going on.
Fooker27@reddit
Lots of "new" accounts, some are a few days old Some havent posted in years. Left leaning posting history as well. Seen two of these so far. Same types of accounts as well....
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
This isn’t my first Reddit account. In case you missed one of my points, gun owners can be left leaning.
Fooker27@reddit
I'm well aware they can be. It's their right to do so.
_Takesonetoknowone@reddit
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
TomCollins1111@reddit
Nope. We’ve been reasonable and have compromised for far too long. We finally are getting decades of infringement reversed. You’re right that we need to have a conversation, but it’s not about guns, it’s about our culture and mental health.
RandoAtReddit@reddit
You're goddamn right.
gmchurchill100@reddit
Go back to r/temporarygunowners and concern post over there. I'm tired of my rights being trampled because criminals refuse to follow to follow the laws on the books and law enforcement refuses to do their jobs.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit (OP)
Thank you for insulting my intelligence. If you don’t want to be part of a reasonable conversation you may leave now.
gmchurchill100@reddit
What compromises that we haven't already made would solve this mental health problem. I'm from a state with all the rules imaginable including a sin tax and ammo background checks, guess what gun crime still happens in the major urban centers.
Firearms-ModTeam@reddit
Your post has been removed for being a repost or duplicate. Please check the sub before posting something.