CFIs: How do you handle students that don't want to put in the preparation effort and only want to fly?
Posted by wolfstore@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 77 comments
Wanted to get some different opinions on how other instructors would handle a situation like this:
I always do a ground lesson with students on XC planning before we go fly a XC together. Let's say you have a ground lesson with a student and go over XC planning thoroughly with them, you even encourage them if there's something they don't understand to either call/text you or schedule another ground lesson, then plan to have them bring a completed nav log to the flight when you plan to fly the XC.
Student goes home, shows up to the XC flight lesson without ANY nav log or hardly any preparation. What would you do? Would you tell them they can't fly and to do another ground lesson with them on XC planning? Would you go fly with them and let them try to figure how to complete the XC flight on their own (within safety margin ofc)? I'm curious what everyone's preferred "teaching experience" for student's in a situation like this is. I know we as instructors are taught to let students make mistakes as teaching moments, but do you think letting them do the flight when they haven't prepared properly is a good teaching moment or just letting them waste money? Curious everyone's thoughts. Thanks in advance!
3_14lottime@reddit
I feel like I'm the only one here with a different opinion.
When a student comes to us with the intent of learning how to fly an airplane. Our job is to be able to embody the information we've learned and give it to the student in a way that makes it easier to understand than what they'd get from just reading the information themself. When you are mentoring someone your actions are even more important than the things you say. The student is going to learn how to act based on what you do. If a student said I don't want to do a checklist I just want to fly for fun, would you just let them skip the checklist? By not letting them fly, you are showing them what is expected of them in this field and the level of responsibility required. Would you let them fly your friends or family with that attitude? A DPE only gets a small snap shot of what a student is on a good day. You are the one who shows a student how to act even when no one is watching. They will be pilots one day and by letting things slide for your own benefits is exactly how they'll approach flying.
OnionDart@reddit
Loved these guys. Worked at mom and pop 61 shop. I just kept flying with them, spoon feeding, and I would never sign off prematurely. They paid my rent
PresentationJumpy101@reddit
Ok did you sign them off when they were ready or you knew they were competent for that phase or did you just keep eeking dual lessons out regardless?
grumpycfi@reddit
It's their money to waste. Provided you're making your expectations clear, educate them on how to meet the standards, and support them doing that by offering ground lessons or whatever else, then by all means: Enjoy the easy flight time.
I think some people get this idea that as instructors we're some kind of disciplinarians or "educators." You're not. This isn't school. It's an entirely elective niche trade/hobby that someone is pursuing by choice. If they don't wanna do it well, that's fine. Don't sign them off to keep everyone safe and then joyride until their heart is content.
Again, it's ethical imo, provided you make it clear what they should be doing to progress.
prat20009@reddit
“Don’t sign off” the student should clearly know that for them to understand, you shouldn’t tell this after everything is done
PresentationJumpy101@reddit
I think the instructor should clearly lay out expectations and checkpoints to hit, bad customer service I’d you’re just stringing them along. Kinda shady.
TheOvercookedFlyer@reddit
I agree. I was that student because I never thought I was going to make it a career but after the opportunity arouse, I flipped the switch.
I'm not ashamed of it. I had a lot of fun. One day my CFI wanted for me to go over steep turns and I straight up told him that I didn't want to do that, instead lets go whale watching (we were in San Diego) and so we did. We had a blast because they were a bunch of them going south about 5-8 miles from the coast.
grumpycfi@reddit
I wish more people chasing the dream seemed to have fun with it. Fun was always.......fun.
TheOvercookedFlyer@reddit
Exactly! I'm trying to instill joy to my students during flights. Once I put on a mustache to simulate our chief pilot for my student's pre-solo check. My student wouldn't stop laughing. I wish I had taken a pic because it looked absolutely hilarious, kind of like this.
grumpycfi@reddit
Hang on to that energy. We need it!
BowlingBallbagBob069@reddit
I agree with this wholeheartedly. And I did this many times as a cfi. Thank god I’m not a cfi anymore and I’ve moved on to the next stage of my pilot career. I’m not going to delay my career by cancelling flights and not building hours because someone else didn’t prepare what they were instructed to. That’s not fair to me
grumpycfi@reddit
Yep. Not only this, but there's plenty to practice and refine with a student even if today's lesson can't happen. That's the beauty of part 61's flexibility. If they didn't do the XC nav log, okay we'll just go work on some maneuvers or do a "mini XC" somewhere local and throw some curveballs. Whatever. CFIs should be comfortable using the tiniest amount of imagination...
BowlingBallbagBob069@reddit
Oh yes, I’ve done that many times. Scrapped the planned lesson for a different one.
trunksdbz1234@reddit
How the fuck did you become a flight instructor not wanting to instruct/educate people? Are you stupid?
Mega-Eclipse@reddit
I agree....but a lot of people don't know this. For most people, they've grown with "school" having a curriculum, classes, syllabus, etc. The teacher tells you what you're going to learn, study, and has daily/weekly/monthly lesson plans. You keep chugging along and then you're done...time for the next grade.
It's kind of rare for a CFI to be like, "Hey, this is like 75% you and your motivation. You have to have a plan for this, you have to keep track of your hours, you have to keep track of the requirements, you have to do the medical, you have to tell me the thing you suck at and want to practice...Any syllabus is more of a guideline....than what you'd call actual rules."
grumpycfi@reddit
You'd hope CFIs would have experienced that in their own training and then approached teaching with the same sense of freedom, fun, and independence. But I guess that's asking for a lot from pilots. Lol
ATACB@reddit
Yep make sure you tell them this
CommuterType@reddit
THIS is the correct answer. I never get angry or upset, I’m not their parent or boss. The student is there by choice and they can decide whether want to waste money or get the most out of it
grumpycfi@reddit
Yeah I was always a little put off by instructors who seem to go ballistic about this stuff. Kinda makes me wonder what sort of airline pilots they become. Then I realize I know what kind. Lol
usmcmech@reddit
I paid for a lot more pre/postflight briefing time than I should have if I had studied like I should.
BowlingBallbagBob069@reddit
Same with me lol. Especially during private. I hold zero grudges against my cfi who flew with me anyway. He was trying to build hours. And the hours still count for me too so it wasn’t all for nothing. All those extra hours I took to get my private pilot still counted towards atp minimums. No harm no foul
I learned my lesson after private. When I did private I had no intention of being a professional pilot. When I did decide to be a professional pilot it was nice to have private already done.
I learned from my mistakes and zoomed thru the rest of my training. Now I’m no longer working as a cfi and I’m at the next stage of my pilot career. My only regret is that I didn’t decide to pursue professional aviation earlier
3greenandnored@reddit
What he said!👆
sixpilot@reddit
First, not everyone learns the same. Your approach may need to change in the way you are teaching the Nav log.
Life gets in the way for many students- perhaps they didn’t have time to complete the Nav logs or by the time they got to it they didn’t understand/remember how to complete the log.
When this occurs with one of my students, we discuss the Nav log to make sure they understand how to complete it. If they are struggling then the lesson turns into a ground lesson. If they simply didn’t have time I offer to make this a local lesson and reschedule the cross country.
As an instructor, you must face the fact that your priorities are not necessarily your student’s. Many students are much more casual in their approach to flying than we are as instructors. If they are simply blowing off the need for a Nav log as well as other studying, then let them know you can’t take them any further until they are ready to put in the work.
livebeta@reddit
CFI should always bill for time whether on the ground or in the air
If I were a CFI (I've tutored highschool kids for $60/hr CAD equivalent in Asia) I'd gladly stay on the ground to teach, if the rate is the same
It's harder for a lazy student to crash the plane when we're on the ground, too
Once my CFI wanted to do a ground brief/debrief and of course I offered (out of respect for his profession)! but he gracefully declined ... He and his wife got some nice stuff for Christmas
PonyKing@reddit
You handle this by having a clear syllabus with an established objective for every lesson/flight along with the prep required. Establish early on that if the objective is not met the lesson will be have to be repeated in entirely at additional cost
standardtemp2383@reddit
my favorite type of student!
Payton1394@reddit
Tell them what you think of that, then just continue to take their money… remind them every flight how you’re just taking their money and racking up hours because of their lack of preparation. As long as you’re fully disclosing your opinion and they don’t care…why should you. I had at least 3 guys who just enjoyed flying but had no interest in actually learning. They were happy to pay to get their fix.
Flyguy115@reddit
Cancel the flight and spend the time for the cross country doing all the preparation and nav logs together. Charge them for ground instruction.
Headoutdaplane@reddit
The good students make the job fun with interesting questions, desire to learn and enthusiasm which they pass in to you.....they are gone fast.
The unmotivated students....well you pay your rent with them because they will be around forever.
worshipdrummer@reddit
I was a bit like that. Until I found out my issue was executive dysfunction and motivation.
Changed FI, FI taught me to break down the process. Made a routine out of it. Problem solved. Now I have one of the best flight preparation of all the school.
pilot777777@reddit
Tell them it is going to cost more. Tell them you gave expectations of them. Tell them if they don't meet the expectations, the flight will be canceled and do ground work.
Also remember. You are not obligated to teach them. You can pass them on to another CFI.
navigate2me@reddit
Lol one time I had a student tell me that I should make his flight plan since he’s paying me…safe to say I threw him off my list shortly after; but even with that student I told him I’m gonna charge him for ground time every time that he doesn’t come in fully prepared, I fact that same day that he told me I should’ve done his flight plan I charged him 2 hrs for wasting my time since I had put the XC for him blocking my whole day and then I continued to schedule him everyday and do ground until he learned that lesson. After which we went for the XC and then in the beginning he did not perform within standards so I got him back from the first point of landing- re did the grounds and then went on the long XC…then did the night XC and removed him. If they don’t learn it doesn’t matter it’s their money, they’ll know when they have to pay it back. Your license shouldn’t suffer because you’re having to work and sign off a student who doesn’t have the motivation to do something as small as a flight plan. We have all done it in our training
FromTheHangar@reddit
First time doing a bigger task like their first navlog I check in on them via text message the day before. Usually just an open question how things are going and whether they need anything from me.
That can go two ways, 1. They are working on it and have a question (often if it's not a blocker I write it down to discuss during the lesson) or 2. They haven't done anything and I can proactively extend their scheduled block by an hour to do it together.
I'm happy either way, I get to teach things and fly, that's what I'm here for.
The only cases that make me less happy are the ones that can do it (and have done it before), but just don't take flight preparation serious. That's a very dangerous attitude. You know they'll keep doing that after they have their PPL. Some day that may turn them and their passengers into a completely avoidable accident report.
Scottzilla90@reddit
Simple: we brief at $120/hr and I will be happy to get you up to speed.
suuntasade@reddit
Cancel. Or go to air and ask okay where is our next waypoint how we get there? Oh you dont have a heading to get there, how so i rember asking you to prepare that you know where we are going
spacecadet2399@reddit
Yes, and I have done that. I don't really understand those who are saying otherwise. It's not even a question if you ask me.
We're training pilots here. The end result of this is that they're supposed to pass a checkride, and beyond that, be safe pilots who can carry passengers. I'm supposed to sign them off prior to that, literally attesting to the fact that they've completed all the requirements listed in the FAR/AIM. I can't do that if they don't even complete their basic prep for an XC flight.
I worked at a 141 school, which maybe makes a *little* bit of a difference, but it shouldn't IMO. Even part 61 instructors are signing off their students prior to a solo or checkride.
Now, I guess you could argue that if the student wants to do the XC anyway, pay for it, then repeat it because you're going to make them repeat that lesson, and you tell them that in advance and give them that choice, maybe that's ok. For me, that's a waste of my other students' time. I always had students backed up waiting for lessons so I don't need the hours that bad, and I wasn't in the business of just giving essentially guided tours to anyone who'd pay me. If one student didn't want to prepare for a lesson, I always had plenty of others who would. So that unprepared student would be left on the ground.
And they'd get at best an "unprepared" on their grade sheet. If this happened more than once, I'd definitely unsat them. This only happened once or twice but I do remember it happening. Of course, they knew all this in advance. My first ground lesson with them would be all about setting expectations. If they didn't want to come prepared to a lesson, then they really shouldn't be in the program. But if you're fatigued or just really don't feel like it or something, just call in sick in advance. Then it's the school's problem. Someone else will take your place on my schedule that day.
Different flight schools are different, but I just don't understand the mentality of letting students be lazy because it's their money. It's also your cert if they then go up on a solo or checkride and have no idea what they're doing. And this is not a hypothetical; this happens all the time, sometimes with pretty tragic results. I don't believe in training any flight student that it's ok to be lazy until they're being evaluated. My students were expected to be ready for every lesson or we weren't flying. And if they just didn't want to fly, they needed to let the school know that.
McDrummerSLR@reddit
Cancel the lesson. I was salaried so I had no qualms about canceling a flight with a student who was unprepared. Usually it only happened once which made it a good learning moment for the students.
ventipico@reddit
I would say don’t sweat it. I’m one of these students.
I had a full time job for my private, and now an added 2 year old while trying to get my IFR. Sometimes I just don’t have time to prep, because life gets in the way. I’ve budgeted for each flight, and can learn something new regardless. I never feel like I have a “wasted” training flight.
I’m probably never going to fly commercial, and my time with a CFI will drop dramatically at some point. I’m in no hurry, so try to pick up every tidbit of knowledge I can. Plus, I treasure my CFI’s friendship, and they’re great company.
225graduate@reddit
Easy, they’re unprepared for the flight…no go.
BowlingBallbagBob069@reddit
How are you supposed to build XC time if you cancel the flight though lol. And if the student has to redo that lesson due to not learning much due to being unprepared it’s not a total loss for them.
For one they will (hopefully) learn to prepare more in the future to avoid wasting money. Secondly assuming the student wants to be a professional pilot at least he/she will be building more XC time as well. Granted they will be doing it inefficiently.
Maybe I’m just trying to justify all the times I flew anyway with unprepared students. I think my points are valid nonetheless though
sprulz@reddit
This is hard from a low time CFI’s perspective because cutting a lesson short is time/money lost. Ultimately though you are doing yourself and your student a huge favor. They need to understand that there are punishments for showing up unprepared, and if you keep rewarding them by going flying they won’t understand that there are consequences for not doing your homework.
From your perspective, most students will respect you for putting your foot down. And if they don’t you shouldn’t want to fly with them anyway.
Ok_Bar4002@reddit
Unless you are in a particular 141, 121, or military program, your student is the customer. You do not need to punish them. If there is something to be gained from the flight and they want to pay the money knowing they may have to do more hours later, that’s on them.
__joel_t@reddit
I suspect their bank accounts won't consider the consequences of needing more flying time a "reward."
225graduate@reddit
Yeah, you flew with unprepared students because the only thing on your mind was your flight hours and not squaring the student away early and holding hem accountable for their actions. You make absolutely zero sense with your points are only trying to justify you being tty ass instructor
Ok_Bar4002@reddit
The student is the customer. If you educate them on what is right, it’s their choice to fly lessons they may have to repeat. This isn’t the military or some high school student. There is a balance to be had. Power tripping is not being a good instructor.
slpater@reddit
Exactly. The second I read how else are you going to build XC time I groaned. The student isn't your ways to fulfill your own requirements. If their training doesn't require it then you're wasting their money and taking advantage of your position of authority for your own gain
burnheartmusic@reddit
If they aren’t ready, it’s a ground session. Luckily at my school, the CFI rate is the same for ground or flying, and while I would rather fly, there is lots to cover on the ground
thepilotboy@reddit
Early on in my CFI days I’d try really hard to spend the time with them to get them up to speed. Later on I’d tell all of my new students what they needed to do, and that I’d gladly fly with them and take their money and the flight time whether they were prepared or not.
Eventually you gotta realize that you can’t learn for them.
burnheartmusic@reddit
Well, it depends on your location. If you’re in an area where it’s hard to come across great flying days, and it turns out that it’s one of those days, you go fly. What you do is you make it to a place that they will be doing their solo xc. Then in another lesson you will tell them to do the nav log, and then go through all of it with them in the next lesson to make sure they understand how to do it properly and understand things like how to go from mag course to mag heading or true course to mag course
slpater@reddit
No nav log as assigned? Cool sounds like you're paying me to watch you make one and then if we have enough time for our lesson we can fly. Otherwise cancel and charge them whatever your schools cancelation fee is for showing up unprepared.
ifitgoesitsgood@reddit
I used to make their lives miserable in a professional yet friendly sort of way. Be nice and kind, don’t let them fly until xyz goal is achieved. Ask them very difficult questions to show them they need to study. The list goes on.
ComfortablePatient84@reddit
I'm afraid my advice likely isn't going to sit well with some. However, it also explains a big reason why I had no desire to become a CFI after retiring from the Air Force.
If I had a student who showed up that woefully unprepared for the flight, I would simply tell him he needed to find a new instructor as I henceforth would decline to be his instructor. I wouldn't raise my voice, but I would just say it in a firm but polite manner.
I can appreciate the reaction of many CFI's who would rightly say I would starve to death if my livelihood depended upon income as a CFI. My sympathies are with all of you in that position.
So, I guess my response does not fit either of your two options. It isn't a teaching moment since I would permanently sever the relationship, but I also would not accept their money going forward. I guess in a way I would hope the student would "see the light" and not make the same mistake with a new instructor.
phliar@reddit
If a student does not do the homework I said they need to do before the next lesson, then the flight lesson gets turned into a ground lesson and we go over the work that the student should have done at home (and if we have any time left we fly). I tell students my policy when we first start training, so this should not be a surprise to them.
This has never happened more than once, they get the idea after the first time! Also this is never a problem with adult students who have jobs.
wolfstore@reddit (OP)
“Laziness is not a mistake” love that
HawkDriver@reddit
I’ll tell you what we do in the Army, as the instructors damn near have to fly the student to produce. I let them try. And usually they are so embarrassed (especially in front of their peers) it never happens again, or, the student hates me forever. In your case, they may fire you after you embarrass them on the flight. This might be good for you as you won’t deal with them again. Better yet they may learn… wow I really need to prepare. Either way, expensive lesson for the student.
ATACB@reddit
Charge them …
sprulz@reddit
Have a frank chat with them. They should understand that they are pissing money away. They should also understand that flying is not a joke, and that not knowing something could make the difference between life or death someday (might seem dramatic but it’s really the truth). If they truly can’t be bothered to study information that could actually keep them alive then this might not be for them.
After that, it’s tough love. Show up unprepared or if I have to keep repeating myself on a lesson? We’re cutting it early.
bhalter80@reddit
The student is paying me by the hour, if they want to use me to complete their navlog before we fly that's fine. If they want to do it at home we can review it and go fly. If they don't get to the point of doing it themselves they won't solo but some people need to be coached through it a few times before they can do.
It sounds like this is common that you teach them and they show up empty handed. Start looking at why this happens, were they confused by the process when they went to do it? Were they unclear on the expectation, were they just not interested. It may be about the way you're teaching not them if it's chronic
DannyDot@reddit
Why prepare for a XC??? Just follow the GPS:-)
disfannj@reddit
it's their money and of you're to e building, it's still hours. you're not a babysitter; if an adult wants to waste money, so be it.
BowlingBallbagBob069@reddit
I’m sure this will be an unpopular answer (especially with the non career oriented pilots on here) but I’m not a cfi anymore so I’ll just keep it 💯 and be real. Do the flight anyway. You’re trying to build hours right? Don’t let them not preparing delay your career.
As long as you made it clear what they needed to do and they chose not to do it it’s on them in my opinion. Hopefully they will learn from this mistake on their part. You could even talk about it with them. Like “gee wouldn’t this have been a lot less stressful and a better learning experience if we had prepared properly?”
But cancel the flight and make no money or do ground and build no hours? Nah I ain’t doin that lol
mctomtom@reddit
I’m not a CFI yet, but I’d do some mock oral stage checks to show them all of their weaknesses and let them know they WILL fail the orals and writtens if they don’t study ground.
Quiet-Recover-4859@reddit
Depends how your school/chief instructor would handle the billing if you don’t clear them to fly. Easiest answer is doing ground until they finish their xc plan, but they’re wasting a time block.
FlyingLongHorns1@reddit
I say fly em. If they wanna waste money because they won’t study, not my problem. I needed hours too. That was how I paid my bills and got to where I was trying to go.
pilotshashi@reddit
That's very very normal but once the financial side hits hard the students will be back in shape and serious AF. This is the story of the majority of student pilots.
ABCapt@reddit
What I would do is give them material to study, we would talk about it and I expected them to be prepared for their next lesson. We would pre brief the lesson and head to fly, I would ask them to set me up for a power off stall…I would get the blank stare, I would ask them if they know what the setup is and when they didn’t know, I would take the controls and have them look it up in their POH.
walleyednj@reddit
My brother (independent CFI/CFII/MEI) got so tired of it he won’t except students that haven’t passed their written test.
ButtStuff6969696@reddit
Take their flight hours but not allow them to move any further forward until the perform to the standards. No solo until you can pass the pre-solo written quiz, no XC until you can make an XC plan on your own, no checkride until you can pass a mock oral.
I’m not babysitting grown adults, but if you wanna go fly I’ll go fly.
SamSamTheDingDongMan@reddit
Was a CFI at a part 141 school. Had a student do exactly this. Told him I could either no show him for being unprepared which was absolutely in my rights, or cancel the flight and do a ground lesson and have him make the navlog in front of me while I quizzed him on it.
He chose the impromptu ground lesson.
EliteEthos@reddit
Is this a recurring issue?
At a minimum, that flight should be cancelled. If this is simply a guy who doesn’t think he needs to do the work, then revoke his XC endorsement and let him know you guys can fly again when he wants to do what was asked of him.
He probably won’t like it and may find another instructor but I think it’s important to also teach students the discipline needed. If he still gets to fly with zero consequence, then the incentive to actually do the work is lessened.
I might be getting paid to teach them but my time has value. If you’re going to waste my time, you’re going to hear about it.
dmspilot00@reddit
If a student shows up with no plan after I explicitly assigned them one, I would tell them to sit down and plan it right then and there. They would be charged for my time. The rest is schedule-dependent. If it becomes a recurring habit, I would drop them.
OneSea3243@reddit
Not a waste of money if they haven’t met your standards or acs standards. You did your part and more but the student needs to meet you there by putting the work in
Milktoast27@reddit
Depends on your instruction situation. Is your school overbooked and are you wasting time that could be spent on a student actually motivated to progress? Then send them home and charge them for the lesson. If you have time i would explain how its probably counterproductive and an inefficient use of his money to progress with the lesson if hes not putting in the work because at the end of the day you learn it by doing the action. No amount of ground instruction can transfer knowledge and proficiency unless the student does it himself at some point. Maybe offer to do one more extra ground but set the boundary for next time that we wont be able to progress unless the perquisite work is done.
poser765@reddit
So when I did cross countries, they’d usually learn the planning bits from me or a ground instructor. The day of the actual flight we include a block of ground to plan the particular flight. I wouldn’t have them do it on their own unless they were like a commercial student or something.
If it was a com student and they didn’t have planning done I’d just have them do it before we left and probably charge them ground. If there wasn’t time, send them away with a CX charge.
unknown713@reddit
Send them home and charge them for your time.
InGeorgeWeTrust_@reddit
How many students do you have? Can you afford to lose one?
On the other hand yeah could just keep taking their money or sit down with them and tell the student you see that they’re struggling and the lack of motivation is going to make any more lessons useless. Give them a chance then see how they react.
They won’t know unless you set the standard and talk with them.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Wanted to get some different opinions on how other instructors would handle a situation like this:
I always do a ground lesson with students on XC planning before we go fly a XC together. Let's say you have a ground lesson with a student and go over XC planning thoroughly with them, you even encourage them if there's something they don't understand to either call/text you or schedule another ground lesson, then plan to have them bring a completed nav log to the flight when you plan to fly the XC.
Student goes home, shows up to the XC flight lesson without ANY nav log or hardly any preparation. What would you do? Would you tell them they can't fly and to do another ground lesson with them on XC planning? Would you go fly with them and let them try to figure how to complete the XC flight on their own (within safety margin ofc)? I'm curious what everyone's preferred "teaching experience" for student's in a situation like this is. I know we as instructors are taught to let students make mistakes as teaching moments, but do you think letting them do the flight when they haven't prepared properly is a good teaching moment or just letting them waste money? Curious everyone's thoughts. Thanks in advance!
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