An open letter to gun control supporters:
Posted by dirtysock47@reddit | Firearms | View on Reddit | 623 comments
In light of today's school shooting in Georgia, I figured I'd pen an open letter to anyone that wishes to use it to push for gun control:
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no, watching innocent children getting murdered in school does not compel us into wanting to give up our guns, or to give up our rights.
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no, we do not "accept" school shootings as "a price to pay for freedom". We have provided several solutions that do not violate the rights of gun owners, yet the anti-gun side rejects every single one of them because they aren't the solutions that they want.
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no, people that own AR-15's are not crazy, or planning something nefarious. Tens of millions of peaceable Americans own an AR-15, and they should not have to be punished for actions they did not commit.
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being the victim of a mass shooting, surviving a mass shooting, or losing a loved one in a mass shooting, does not make your opinion on guns or gun control any more legitimate. You do not get to use your tragedy to guilt trip gun owners into giving up their rights, and any attempt to do so will be met with the response of "fuck off".
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we have absolutely zero reason to trust you guys in any kind of "compromise". Furthermore, gun owners are getting nothing in return in any of these "compromises", and if there is anything we get (such as PLCAA), it's called a "loophole" a generation later.
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the reason why we get so defensive about our gun rights after a school shooting, is because you immediately attack our rights before the bodies even become cold. Collectively blaming all gun owners for school shootings is going to get you nowhere.
I know this might come across as "preaching to the choir, but it needs to be said.
Mr_Gibbzz@reddit
I’d like to know how this teenager obtained the rifle. No details like that available yet though
the_spacecowboy555@reddit
I like to know too. Motive would be nice to know. Oh, I heard he wasn’t a student at the school so why did he go there? Was there security at that school? Where door locked? How did he gain entry? How did he go into the school unnoticed?
Mr_Gibbzz@reddit
According to the little press release they just did, it was a 14yo kid and he WAS a student at that high school.
New_Ant_7190@reddit
There was a girl interviewed who said that she knew him and that yes, he was a student there.
PyroZach@reddit
I've been doing work at a school through the summer and finishing up now while students are in. Today the entrance I normally used was blocked. I walked in the front behind a group of students, around the metal detectors, and off to my work area. Then realized my contractor badge was under my hoodie. Maybe the security guard recognized me, but I was a bit shocked that nobody said anything to me.
Popular-Ordinary-1@reddit
that you need medal detectors and security is the real shock to me. proofs that there is something really really wrong in the land of the free …..
xlwerner@reddit
Exactly. This security should only be used in places that are important, like banks or government buildings. They hold stuff that’s way more important, like money.
We should ban air travel as well, rather than having any kind of security measures and/or TSA violating our rights in the name of “safety”
That’s also why when I drive, I just go the maximum speed to get where I need to go. This is the land of the free, and I’ll be god DAMNED if I let some speed limit sign propped up by the government tell me how fast I can go, especially with MY children in the car. First thing I did when I bought my new Honda Odyssey was cut out the back seatbelts, that way the kids could play freely without all of these “safety features” preventing them from exercising their freedom in the back seat of the car. Now they can jump and run and roll around uninhibited, regardless of my ludicrous speed on the highways.
gunplumber700@reddit
I think popular ordinaries comment is being taken out of context, though based on the way it was written I can see why.
One would hope that our community is so safe that metal detectors at a school are unnecessary. The high school I went to (years ago) still doesn’t use them…
It’s very unfortunate that we’ve gotten to a point where they’re a necessity in keeping kids safe at school. Something is very wrong if we are at a point that we need metal detectors in schools to keep kids safe. Because your comment was a little pedantic and taken out of context, no, that does not mean we should get rid of them if that’s what is needed to keep kids safe in school…
Popular-Ordinary-1@reddit
thaaank you. this is exactly what i meant. i just didnt know how to write it in proper english as an answer to werners comment.
gunplumber700@reddit
I knew what you meant. It’s unfortunate the upvote system promotes people being pedantic over actually grasping the meaning of what someone is saying.
rymden_viking@reddit
Personally I don't want to know how he obtained the rifle or the motive. The less details that are given out the harder it will be for copycats to pull off the same. And the less infamy these guys get the less others will want to pull this off looking for the same.
D_Costa85@reddit
I get it but I disagree. I don’t think there’s any evidence that knowing details about a tragedy produces more tragedies of the same kind. I Do believe glorifying the shooters and plastering their name and face all over the place causes copycat behavior. That’s basic psychology. I like the recent tact of glorifying the memory of the victims and barely spreading the names of the killers.
ltwerewolf@reddit
It's the precise reason they don't do with serial killings that they do with school shootings: there was a correlation of copycats.
D_Costa85@reddit
It’s important to know how he got a gun. Did he steal it? Did someone give it to him? Did he purchase it illegally? These things matter and ultimately do have an effect on policy.
ltwerewolf@reddit
And politicians and law enforcement has that data. News doesn't need to release that data.
D_Costa85@reddit
If a crime was committed during the act of acquiring the gun (most likely it was) that should be public information.
milkyvapes@reddit
This is key. The media gives them the attention and satisfaction they crave. We shouldn't know their names.
RedMephit@reddit
I don't need to know the motive, but those who truly want to make a difference and prevent more shootings may want to study the motive to push for solutions that actually work. How he got the gun isn't overly important. My 8 year old could get a hold of my guns if he was particularly determined, my wife or I were dead, and he knew how to break the glass on my gun case (seeing as he's never home without one of us present he woukd have to get it past us after breaking into my case) Heck, at 14 I had access to all my dad's guns essentially any time I wanted (I knew enough to ask permission).
SuperRedpillmill@reddit
He was a student at Appalachee. He had previously made threats at another school and was known to the FBI.
Mr_Gibbzz@reddit
Indeed. Very curious as to the details of this case. I own guns, and have kids. There’s no way any of them could ever access them because I make sure they’re always locked up and the only person who has access to my safes is me, myself and I…
NisforKnowledge@reddit
I would like to see the medical records of these shooters.
Comrade_Zamir_Gotta@reddit
The fbi had already pulled a red flag on the kid a year ago, investigated them and nothing happened.
NisforKnowledge@reddit
Just like all the others…
FalseIndividual238@reddit
Well you can't really arrest them if they haven't committed a crime yet. This isn't the movie minority report.
NisforKnowledge@reddit
No you can't and no you shouldn't be able too, however you can inform the parents and have them make sure the kid has no access to firearms. It's called being a responsible parent, maybe if we had more of it we would have less shit heads running around shooting up schools.
Learningstuff247@reddit
Do you want the FBI to arrest every edgy teenager? Like if we are for free speech and gun rights and against red flag laws what do you want to happen?
NisforKnowledge@reddit
How about, "Hey dad. Your POS kid just made a threat, make sure you lock up ALL of your fucking guns and that your kid doesn't have access to them. Also, pay attention to him and what he is doing."
See, nobody rights were violated.
ltwerewolf@reddit
They were flagged for a reason. Maybe when a shooter threat had been called in on the school that a flagged person goes to, take it seriously?
Comrade_Zamir_Gotta@reddit
First thing you learn about a school shooter….. that the fbi was “monitoring” them. Every fucking time…
Learningstuff247@reddit
What do you want the FBI to do before the kid commits a crime?
Rasabk@reddit
Survey says: SSRIs
NisforKnowledge@reddit
That seems to be the obvious answer, but nobody seems interested in investigating if there is a link.
T_M_G_@reddit
My guess is through a family member or stole it from a family member. Remember most gun crimes are guns acquired illegally.
ThePalestFire@reddit
Even if he "illegally" obtained it by taking it from a family member, that person likely legally purchased the gun. If the gun was illegal to buy, the likelihood of a family member buying one goes down, and the likelihood of access goes down.
hemingways-lemonade@reddit
90% chance it was their parents and not secured properly.
Mr_Gibbzz@reddit
That’s exactly what I’m thinking. I’ll never understand having kids and NOT locking your fucking guns up. That shits just crazy to me.
thetainrbelow@reddit
My daughter is 2 . I had my guns in a closet far up and away with trigger locks. But now that's she's walking and being curious I've got a gun safe. Locked where she can't access it. So I fully agree with this statement. Even my bed side gun is unobtainable to her.
Mr_Gibbzz@reddit
They have biometric safes these days that open so quick for quick and easy access. There’s really no excuse
FalseIndividual238@reddit
How do you get your gun put when the batteries die though?
daddys-toe-ring@reddit
I personally don’t use a biometric safe for my nightstand because I don’t trust the tech in an emergency, and there’s the battery issue that you mentioned. After a significant amount of research, I went with a v-line brute with a simplex lock. It works flawlessly
thetainrbelow@reddit
Bed side safe is a number safe. Other safe is code. But I agree fully.
hemingways-lemonade@reddit
Yeah, same. I have a toddler so if it's not on me it's locked up, but try to suggest that should be the law in this subreddit and see what happens.
Hector_Salamander@reddit
I'm curious what that law would look like. I don't have kids so I'm generally opposed to that sort of thing.
hemingways-lemonade@reddit
Many states have laws stating that if the firearm isn't on your person then it needs to be in a safe. I believe some states specify only if there are children in the home, but I'm not 100% sure on that.
Hector_Salamander@reddit
That sounds shitty. I thought that was ruled unconstitutional. Either way let's not advocate for that
yashatheman@reddit
How is that unconstitutional? Do you see the benefit in having to use a gun safe as opposed to having guns and ammunition laying around the house?
Hector_Salamander@reddit
DC had a law saying guns had to either be disassembled or locked up. Heller struck down the law as unconstitutional.
yashatheman@reddit
Thanks, didn't know about Heller. Weird shit
Hector_Salamander@reddit
I disagree I don't want to lock all my guns in a safe I like to have a couple out.
Firefox_Alpha2@reddit
I see where you’re coming from. However, the necessary balance is if someone breaks down your front door or sneaks in, best case you have 2-3 seconds in most situations to get to the safe and open it, could you?
hemingways-lemonade@reddit
If that's the fear, and it's a legitimate one, then your best bet is keep one on you at all times while at home. Unless you want to have one in almost every room so you're never more than 2 seconds away from one.
I feel the chance of my toddler getting a hold of an unsecured gun is much more likely than someone kicking in my door in the middle of the night. But I'm also lucky to live in a safe area.
Firefox_Alpha2@reddit
Always wondered, don’t have kids, would it be possible to store them up high where a toddler couldn’t get to?
hemingways-lemonade@reddit
Toddlers are like monkeys. Mine was able to get on the kitchen counters at a year and a half old. I wouldn't put anything past them.
hemingways-lemonade@reddit
If that's the fear, and it's a legitimate one, then your best bet is keep one on you at all times while at home. Unless you want to have one in almost every room so you're never more than 2 seconds away from one.
I feel the chance of my toddler getting a hold of an unsecured gun is much more likely than someone kicking in my door in the middle of the night. But I'm also lucky to live in a safe area.
Mr_Gibbzz@reddit
Oh I know, that doesn’t make any sense to me. I trust my kids, and don’t think they’d ever even think of doing something like this. But still as a “just in case” measure. I’ll always keep them under lock and key. Not worth the risk in my opinion.
lord_dentaku@reddit
That's the law in my state. It's largely a punitive measure after an incident because there isn't really a viable way to have sufficient evidence for a warrant to search someone's home to see if their guns aren't secured. I don't personally have an issue with it. If someone doesn't keep their guns locked up and their kid uses it to shoot someone, or a bunch of someones, then they deserve to get hit with a charge.
Owning guns comes with responsibility, and not just when it's in your hands. Collectively, gun owners need to do better. And I know we aren't one homogenous group, but if we all could do better these incidences would occur less often.
hemingways-lemonade@reddit
We all think our kids would never do something like this until they do it. Same with self harm, drug use, etc. That's the unfortunate reality.
Mr_Gibbzz@reddit
Too many of these incidents could have been avoided by simply having the firearms locked up to begin with…
-goneballistic-@reddit
I have had guns all through my house since my children were born.
All adults now. All safe gun handlers.
My kids were never barred access to guns. They could see, handle and shoot them anytime they wanted.
There was no mystery or forbidden allure.
But my kids are all pretty good kids, no real issues or anything weird.
Might not work for everyone but it's how I was raised and how my kids were raised
BenitoMeowsolini1@reddit
why do you write like you’re posting something dramatic on LinkedIn
SuperRedpillmill@reddit
That’s how I was raised and how my son was raised.
BenitoMeowsolini1@reddit
good thing crazy people can own guns
elloguvner@reddit
Agree completely. I believe it is now illegal in Michigan to have accessible firearms in your home with children under 18.
Parents should be held responsible if they leave their children access to these weapons and this happens.
Mr_Gibbzz@reddit
110% the parents should be held responsible. It’s pure negligence.
elloguvner@reddit
Yep. Pretty fucking stupid. You can even buy a safe through the end of this year and pay no sales tax as an incentive. Stupid to not lock them up.
Major_Nutt@reddit
Raise your kids right and it won't be a problem?
I know dozens of people (and myself) who were raised in houses with openly stored firearms. Never once been a problem.
Mr_Gibbzz@reddit
Can’t argue with ignorance… 🤦♂️
Major_Nutt@reddit
Claiming ignorance is a scapegoat for ineffective parenting.
whiskey_outpost26@reddit
Parenting ain't got shit to do with it. Do you ever have visitors? Plenty of people come in and out of my house that aren't my kids. Those people shouldn't be able to touch my guns, or yours at your house. You're an irresponsible owner if you don't lock up your shit. Full stop.
Major_Nutt@reddit
I don't allow anyone in my house that I wouldn't trust handing a loaded rifle to.
whiskey_outpost26@reddit
Must be nice to be that trusting, then. I'm being honest. I have major trust issues. I'd probably be forced to live alone if I had to adopt that rule.
Mr_Gibbzz@reddit
I’ve raised my kids just fine. I don’t think they would ever attempt anything as dumb as this. But I still keep my shit locked up. Because they also have friends who come over, and other family’s kids. I won’t take that risk on my watch. But stand behind your ignorance. Like I said you can’t argue against ignorance. You’re “right”, have a good day.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
Don’t worry, OP is already complaining about potential “safe storage laws” and how they’ll make gun owners felons over night.
Mr_Gibbzz@reddit
🤦♂️
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
Apparently now being told to lock up your guns is unconstitutional
Mr_Gibbzz@reddit
Yeah that’s something I can’t agree with. I have kids, they’re really well behaved, good kids. But I would still never leave one of my firearms within their reach. Kids are kids, they sometimes do dumb shit without really thinking it all the way through. I know I was a dumb kid who did a lot of dumb shit because I wasn’t thinking. And now looking back I’m like fuck, I did some stupid shit. What was I thinking? I won’t even take the slightest risk of something like this happening on my watch.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
Agreed. As gun owners, we need to come to terms with the fact that there are a lot of people who want guns gone. Compromise is the way we get what we want. Especially if we’re trying to steer the conversation of it’s not about the kind of gun or whatever. Agreeing to lock up guns that are not in use is like a free win for us if that is an acceptable compromise for anti gun people. It’s not like that even a new thing. Plenty of states, even red ones, have safe storage laws on the books, even as poorly enforced as they may be.
freakinunoriginal@reddit
It shouldn't even be considered compromise. We should want to promote responsible ownership; and if we refuse to be part of the conversation, then the law will be written by people who don't understand what they're regulating.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
That’s a good way to put it as well. I said compromise because that’s a fair meeting point between “fuck off” and “all guns are illegal now”
freakinunoriginal@reddit
With the amount of attention we give to the those extremes, we end up amplifying them to the point that people think those are the only sides they can choose from. But that starts to become quite the tangent.
Mr_Gibbzz@reddit
I was honestly surprised to learn only 27 states have gun storage laws… I thought it would be more, especially by now.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
Sometimes the gun crowd can be its own worst enemy.
Mr_Gibbzz@reddit
Agreed
Ok-Wolverine-2806@reddit
I agree with securing your firearms no doubt. All my firearms are locked away in safes if not on my person. I feel I am responsible for them from the moment I purchase them. That being said I do feel like there is a bigger more significant problem that is underlying. For instance I grew up in a family of avid hunters. There were guns in every part of the house. I started hunting and shooting at around 10. Never once thought about anything like this. Fast forward to high school we all had gun racks in the back of our trucks with rifles. We all met up after school to go hunting in the afternoons. This was never a thought. Got in many fight and scuffles back in the day but never thought of anything like this. So my big question is what has changed in society to cause the massive shift? I think getting to the root cause of this is what will solve the problem. No amount of anything else is going to resolve anything. Before people killed each other with bows and arrows. Knives and swords before that, and rocks and hands before that. There will always be murder and killing as long as there are people, but what has changed in the hearts and lives of the youth to cause this?
hemingways-lemonade@reddit
The bigger issue is obviously poor mental health influenced by social media, but that will never be fixed overnight if at all.
Level_Ad_6372@reddit
Poor mental health influenced by social media is a thing worldwide. Kids shooting up schools is not.
tambrico@reddit
Do we even know if it's a rifle yet?
Ttylery@reddit
https://x.com/BeastBughaFN/status/1831404394165973384
Looks like an ar15 with red dot/holo, maybe a front grip, tan mag on the side.
StanfordWrestler@reddit
Do we know that was the shooters and not one of the cops? I saw another pic of the supposed shooter holding a stainless shotgun.
SuperRedpillmill@reddit
That picture of the hooded kid with shotgun is fake, that X video posted is the rifle and that’s my Sheriff that I went to school with.
Ttylery@reddit
I guess we dont, but Id hope that a cop wouldnt just leave their gun lying on the ground.
Mr_Gibbzz@reddit
The OP commented and said the kid used an AR, which is why I made the rifle comment.
Inevitable-Island346@reddit
As for the motives it’s easy to guess. Probably had autism or another neurodivergence, was bullied to breaking point after the adults he trusted failed to protect him and ignored him and now we all get blamed for it instead of the teachers who should have made sure school was a safe place for our kids to learn
TouchdownVirgin@reddit
There are never details day of an incident, even doubly so for an instance like this.
buffalobill22-@reddit
if only we had those super useful universal background checks. surely that would have prevented all of this
i’m being sarcastic by the way
LiberalLamps@reddit
Seeing that the shooters name was Colt Gray.
You can't make this shit up.
AHockeyFish@reddit
What solutions have been proposed in response to your second point?
I’m a pro gun person, just genuinely curious and want to learn.
Aeropro@reddit
Schools no longer gun free zones, allow teaches to concealed carry, add school resource officers, increase security.
DesertWilder@reddit
So put more guns in schools. Got it.
Aeropro@reddit
Not really put more guns in schools, allow more guns in schools.
If it could save a kids life, why would you be against that? There are things that we could do today to make schools less easy targets, but democrats would rather ban the guns for the hope of an improvement that might take years to have an effect.
DesertWilder@reddit
I have no way of knowing if you're a bot, but I'm going with you are a real person with genuine interest in solving this unique American problem of kids dying in school from guns. Also, I want you to kno,w I'm a huge 2A supporter, and I'm also a father.
The reason I'm not a fan of "allowing" more guns in schools, is because I've seen the quality of teachers, resource officers, etc. that public schools are hiring nowadays. They just can't afford to get the good teachers anymore and it shows. That said, I don't want someone who barely earned their GED to be carrying a gun in the classroom.
Aeropro@reddit
Well, this is an 11 year old account that has consistent use during that time, if that helps.
I’m an ICU nurse, not a father, but I’m very close to my young niece and nephew.
You got me there, I haven’t met my niece/nephews teachers, so I can’t give any personal opinions like that.
What I CAN say is that your personal opinion about the quality of our teachers isn’t a good enough reason to dismiss the idea outright. I wouldn’t expect many teachers to carry with it being a more liberal profession, and that changing the perception of schools being soft targets might be enough to deter mass shooters.
NiftyJohnXtreme@reddit
Let's have guns right there in the school for the mentally ill kids to get hands on it. Saves them a lot of time at least which is very considerate of you, right in the classroom they want to shoot up too, very convenient.
Aeropro@reddit
Let’s put more useless restrictions on guns so that mentally ill kids can continue to shoot up schools for the next ten years while you incrementally inch the law towards your covert goal of banning guns, mostly because you don’t like them.
Let me guess, this is something that you imagined right now, immediately believed and then spread it as it’s definitely going to happen. If not, go on and show me where kids are getting guns from any of those sources to commit mass shootings.
This reeks of the “blood in the streets” wails the democrats gave before they passed constitutional carry in my state, but that never happened, in fact crime went down.
What are your suggestions for preventing mass shootings that can start preventing mass shootings as soon as they are implemented?
Aeropro@reddit
Do you have any evidence of this ever happening or is this just make believe?
Jamal_202@reddit
Yes. You evidently do accept school shootings as a price to pay. You have not provided any solutions whatsoever.
ByornJaeger@reddit
So that is entirely a lie. If you’re not aware of proposed solutions that is one thing. But what would you do about school shootings was a question that most Republican candidates were asked in this election cycle, so there is plenty of footage to find. Personally I prefer Vivek Ramaswamy’s answer. But to say that the right/conservatives/Republicans just accept that as a price to pay is a disingenuous lie.
Jamal_202@reddit
“3 armed guards in every school” is not a serious answer. Who is funding these people who will stand around and do nothing 99% of the time but will have to be paid well. Also want about big schools? Will 3 suffice? Also it’s absolutely ridiculous to have armed individuals walking around a freaking school where little children are learning and playing. That’s not normal.
What happens when school shooters turn their focus on less defended schools or even churches?
Not a disingenuous lie. The deaths of children are treated as a price to pay.
ByornJaeger@reddit
Way to move the goalposts. “You provide no solutions” “that solution doesn’t work”. Disingenuous. I would be willing to have an honest conversation, but your false premise is not where this conversation starts.
Jamal_202@reddit
I hate to break it to you pal. But a politician saying something absurd and infeasible is a perfectly acceptable reason to rubbish them off.
No. I don’t count lying politician’s words as gospel or as serious proposals.
ByornJaeger@reddit
And yet you seem perfectly willing to parrot “dead children are the price of the second amendment
BadgersHoneyPot@reddit
This liberal needs his guns for when Donald Trump is selected and I need to oppose the tyranny of his administration.
yrunsyndylyfu@reddit
As I always say, the Venn diagram of and is a fucking circle
BadgersHoneyPot@reddit
I bet you think you’re on r/conservative.
yrunsyndylyfu@reddit
Sounds like someone thinks they're on ~~r/liberalgunowners~~ r/temporarygunowners 😬
BadgersHoneyPot@reddit
Back to r/justbootthings for you.
yrunsyndylyfu@reddit
r/temporarygunowners never stops oozing
BadgersHoneyPot@reddit
Cope harder maybe?
yrunsyndylyfu@reddit
Cope with r/temporarygunowners?? LMAO. There is no coping with r/temporarygunowners
BadgersHoneyPot@reddit
Was there a point you came here to make? If so, could you make it again as we all missed it the first time.
yrunsyndylyfu@reddit
You mean the point I made that the Venn diagram of r/liberalgunowners and r/temporarygunowners is a fucking circle? You missed that?
Billybob_Bojangles2@reddit
If that happens, more power to you
GamingPugFather@reddit
What happened in 2016-2020? You didn't use your guns then??? Coward
pissing_noises@reddit
Okay then that was always allowed.
PandorasFlame1@reddit
Literally the best way to address school shootings is to give schools better funding and giving everyone free access to mental healthcare. Nobody listens when you're bullied, and the victim often ends up getting punished for being bullied and retaliating. If schools had better funding they may actually get better staff that will properly enforce policies instead of treating everything as a blanket policy. I never thought of committing acts of violence, but I was a victim of schools not caring, myself. I was bullied from 2nd grade all the way into high school. Everything from being excluded by all my classmates to getting stabbed and sexually assaulted. Not once did anyone ever listen to me even when it was abundantly clear I was the victim. I was lucky to be afforded several opportunities to fight back without being punished (largely due to staff being lazy) and was able to reintegrate with my peers in 9th grade, but the years between were miserable. I totally understand why some people want to lash out against everyone, but neither attacks nor gun control will fix that problem.
hemingways-lemonade@reddit
Unfortunately, most people who are pro 2A are also against raising school budgets and funding public healthcare. Not all of us, but an unfortunate majority.
direwolf106@reddit
Roll it back 100 years we didn’t have these issues but we had fully automatic weapons and no spending on mental healthcare.
Personally I’d rather figure out what broke and fix it rather than throw money at something proclaiming it will fix it without knowing why it broke or how it will fix it.
Blindsnipers36@reddit
You do know 15 years ago before Chicago you didn't have this second amendment right you think Americans have always had right?
direwolf106@reddit
I outright reject that idea. At no other time is the phrase “the right of the people” interpreted as a collective right. In fact I’m not even sure a “collective but not individual right” can even exist.
Think about it. You “collectively” have the right to free speech but not as an individual is asinine. Same for right to be secure in your person, right to due process, right have representation, right to not have soldiers quartered in your home, etc. Under no scenario I can imagine does a collective right make any sense. The closest I can find is lots of individuals using their rights together but that’s still individual.
And so the concept of a collective right I have find to be a fabrication by anti gunners purely for this right alone. Your argument I find wholly unconvincing.
Also Hamilton left me with a very different impression.
Blindsnipers36@reddit
Cool im not sure how you possibly came to that conclusion when there were 225 years of supreme court cases saying it was the case that its not an individual right
direwolf106@reddit
Oooh please show me these rulings. Cause I think you are simply believing propaganda and misinformation.
Not That it makes a difference, because current court precedent is what counts. But I still think that your claim is a wholesale fabrication. To be clear I 100% think you genuinely think it’s true and are acting in good faith. I’m asserting that I think you believe a lie fabricated by someone else.
Blindsnipers36@reddit
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/92/542/ https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/116/252/ https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/153/535/ https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/307/174/
direwolf106@reddit
lol it doesn’t say what you think.
The court side stepped the issue by saying the constitutional rights didn’t apply to state governments.
And this is of course a defunct legal doctrine as it would let police brazenly ignore the 4th amendment. Which is one of the things the court side stepped here.
But ultimately this case declines to support your assertion of a “collective right” interpretation.
Blindsnipers36@reddit
It's a collective right because it belongs to the states and their organized militias lol.
direwolf106@reddit
And where do you get that from? Giffords? Biden? Where do you actually get the idea that it’s a collective right? Where is your primary source?
Blindsnipers36@reddit
Its literally in the larger arguments if you read the actual court decisions
direwolf106@reddit
I did. I quoted you the relevant section. They side stepped the issue.
But maybe I missed it. Please provide the actual quote where they say it’s not an individual right but a collective one and notate where it actually says that in the source.
Bear in mind that even IF you can (which I doubt) it still doesn’t matter because it wouldn’t be current precedent. Otherwise the Dredd Scott case is still good case law (it’s not).
Blindsnipers36@reddit
Quick question do you even know what incorporation is
direwolf106@reddit
Legal process of forming a new corporation or entity. Most frequently it’s used when a rural area experiences growth and decide to become a city or town in their own right.
However as its relevance to rights incorporated entities are treated as individuals, “corporate personhood”. As such any right they exercise or have is still an individual right and not at all in support of a collective argument.
Like I said, I completely reject the idea of a collective but not individual right. It simply doesn’t exist.
Blindsnipers36@reddit
Yeah thats the answer i was expecting lol
Darkling5499@reddit
Roll back 60 years when we had students that had guns in their cars at school and school-run shooting clubs.
Crazy how in the 60s I could order a semi-automatic M16 clone from the same magazine that I got my dishwasher, as well as the evil super massive 30 round magazines, and have it delivered to my door, and yet there was no school shootings.
It's almost like something else has changed in regards to childred over the past 30 years.
SicSemperTieFighter3@reddit
The way children are treated changed…
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
How about wage stagnation, insane housing costs, rising food prices, environmental destruction, predatory lending, loss of labor rights, attacks on healthcare? All these things are more or less recent and have huge impacts on the mental of this nation.
LynnDickeysKnees@reddit
That's right now in some places. Kids around here still have trap shooting clubs in school.
hemingways-lemonade@reddit
100 years ago we lived in an almost entirely different world. What solution do you have that doesn't cost money?
direwolf106@reddit
Do we live in a very different world?
100 years ago was 1924
We already had all 48 contiguous states. We already had cars. We already had the stock market and trading. Students went to school like they do now.
It’s a less developed version of our world but it’s very similar.
hemingways-lemonade@reddit
No television, internet, cell phones, or social media. Better wages, more affordable housing, and a more robust middle class.
direwolf106@reddit
In 1924 both radio and phones existed, and for sure the telegram. Rapid world wide communication was very possible. What’s fundamentally different about the internet is the pictures which might be part of what broke mental health wise.
The wages thing….. lol. Maybe in the 50s but not the 20s.
But going back to the picture thing it’s not really healthy to continually compare ourselves to others. Additionally it’s not healthy to not be regularly helping others. And so many social safety net programs combined with pictures making us continually compare our selves to others I personally think is what broke us.
My personal opinion on what would help our society is no pictures on social media, no social safety net programs and us going out and helping each other ( no giving money to some one else, actual service). I really do think that when you crest a government “charity” program you actually hurt the society because you take the choice away from the “giver” and you take the feeling of gratitude and indebtedness away from the recipients.
I really think these two things are what broke and poring money into mental health to have therapists tell people to “work on them selves” when they should be out there actually helping people and solving real problems I think will do much more to solve the mental health problems than anything else.
hemingways-lemonade@reddit
I agree with you on social media and imagery, but that's about it. Taking away someone's medicaid isn't going to solve their mental health problems.
direwolf106@reddit
The community actually helping them will help lower mental health problems out there in the community.
Also when we have actual problems our unsolvable imagined problems go away and our mental health improves. Generally.
crash______says@reddit
You are confusing 1924 with 1954.
hemingways-lemonade@reddit
Average income (adjusted for inflation) was higher in 1924 tthan 2024. Houses were also less expensive and unemployment was only 1.5% higher.
But the bigger point is how communication and access to information has changed. Less than half of US houses had a telephone in 1924.
crash______says@reddit
"houses" were like 800sqft and poverty line stats require a logarithmic scale to compare.
Savitar17@reddit
No, the best way is literally gun control. Mental health issues are prevalent across the entire world, yet school shootings only happen here. When there was a mass shooting in New Zealand, they tightened restrictions, and the problem went away. This is the only country in the world that isn't an active war zone with this problem.
PandorasFlame1@reddit
That worked so well for cities like Chicago, right? Or states like New York? Or countries like China? Why are you even on a sub about firearms if you're so actively against people having them?
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
And right leaning gun owners will agree that free mental health care would be a great solution. Then when it’s time to actually get the legislation passed they scream BUT THATS SOCIALISM.
The average r/firearms user is impossible to have a conversation about solutions to shootings because you’ll just get stonewalled with the exact stuff OP posted.
And I say all this as a lifelong gun owner and former lifelong republican.
ArsePucker@reddit
Amazed this is getting downvoted. You nailed it.
I’m British / US dual citizen. Numerous firearms and no not 3+… many more (all locked up). You have no idea how hard it is to see this sub when someone gets stabbed in UK. All rational thought goes out the window. Its cannon fodder the gun grabbers the shit that people post here.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
Like I said, most users here are probably in the 18-25 demographic who can only think in terms of “shall not be infringed”. I was there once. I was even at one point a college campus leader for the Empty Holster Project, as well as one of the first Appleseed instructors to bring on a campus ROTC to an Appleseed shoot. I have always been an advocate for gun rights, but I’m also a realist and I’m also not a single issue voter. These people may grow and learn this world isn’t black and white, and gun rights aren’t binary.
Or they might not and they will stand there one day scratching their heads as to why they weren’t involved in the conversation about gun laws when the conversation was had by the adults in the room.
Lina_Inverse@reddit
I'd make more of an effort to understand that generation and empathize with them. Thats the age group who historically has started shooting when they're excluded from too many conversations.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
I have some understanding. I’m only 34, it wasn’t that long ago that I was in that demographic and thought very similarly.
Aeropro@reddit
Well, it is socialism, but there are different conservative factions. It’s actually hard to get all of them to agree with something, there’s always a group that likes to say ‘no’ to something.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
Yeah like the gun owners here that are arguing that they shouldn’t have to lock up their guns. I’m fucking flabbergasted at how hardlined people are about that.
PandorasFlame1@reddit
Trump and the insanity of the GOP is why I changed my registration to independent. I can't believe how far we've fallen since Bush just because a black man got elected. It's shameful. I just want the US healthcare system to work for everyone and to be left alone, but that's too hard for folks nowadays.
NineTenSix@reddit
Do you think the GOP wants more funding for public schools? Especially for mental health?
Glittering-Pilot-572@reddit
No I think the GOP is on the right track. Schools should be run according to local needs. So state and local governments should decide their standards. As schools are run now. Many children get left to fend for themselves. Teachers teach to tests instead of accumalating knowledge. We need to do away with multiple choice tests totally and teach the concept, and then test what they learned on the concepts. Federal funding can still happen. But the red tape needs cut. No more federal standards. It would be huge changes that could have massive positive affects on our education system. Mental health is important to the GOP. If you look back. Democrats literally fought to close mental institutions instead of fixing them. But in this case. Need school psychologists that can talk to kids about how things are going. Maybe one meeting per child every two weeks. Means hiring more of them. If bullying comes up. The accusation gets investigated, and the kid bullying gets extra homework and a call to parents instead of suspended. Maybe even having to volunteer as punishment. A lot more effective punishment than suspensions. Most kids hate homework and welcome suspensions.
NineTenSix@reddit
Part of the reason why there are federal standards is to measure how effectively federal funding is being utilized by the states. Who’s going to pay for the “one meeting per child every two weeks”? The red states who consistently cut funding to public education? There are hundreds of kids at public school, at best there is one school psychologist/counselor if they exist, that’s not going to happen.
Your bullying statement makes no sense, do you really think kids who bully other kids do their homework? Who’s going to make them do their homework? Their parents? Lmao
Glittering-Pilot-572@reddit
The counselor would be state provided as part of the school. The homework would be part of the school day. But I prefer the community service being mandated. The whole point is not doing away with people. But trying to bring these kids back to functioning members of society is important.
As for red states cutting funding. When something isn't working you don't keep throwing money at it. You figure out what is happening and how to fix it. Our federal government keeps throwing money at it. Now our taxes barely cover the interest on our national debt. We have no money without massive cuts. That is what we need. Public schools need ran like private schools. Get rid of the extra bureaucracy and you save millions. Harden schools and you save children.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
Absolutely they don’t. One of the tenets of facsism is the destruction of public education. Educated people are hard to control. Why do you think people like DeSantis do so much to fuck with the schools in Florida?
WesternCowgirl27@reddit
Another tenet is disarming the public.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
Don’t worry, the GOP just hasn’t gotten to that stage yet.
WesternCowgirl27@reddit
As we’ve seen from the Democrats, or did you forget the ‘94 Assault Weapons Ban?
At least the GOP didn’t have hotlines to call to snitch on neighbors to the police during Covid.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
In case you forgot, the 94AWB sunset 20 years ago, with no replacement since.
Yeah you can miss me with whatever propaganda about how well the GOP handled Covid. They fucked that up beyond belief.
LynnDickeysKnees@reddit
It was just eyewash, anyway. I bought the only AK I ever owned during that "ban". No difference from a regular AK other than the thumbhole stock.
WesternCowgirl27@reddit
Yet, Columbine (one of the worst mass shootings in history) still happened.
As opposed to the states with the draconian lockdowns? My state is still suffering economic loss from shutting down over 4 years ago.
hemingways-lemonade@reddit
"Take the guns first, go through due process second."
sanesociopath@reddit
The mental health related bills are never proposed on their own and at best loosely thrown into some crappie other bill so it can be killed.
And government schools would be able to receive more actual dollars themselves if we greatly reduced (or more) the bureaucratic bloat in the department of education
NineTenSix@reddit
Which GOP politicians are pushing these initiatives? I only seem to hear from the Democractic ones, it would be nice to see a comprehensive mental health plan come from the GOP, I’d support that.
StutteringDan@reddit
I appreciate your candor and openness to tell your story. You can't solve a problem until everyone can talk about it.
PandorasFlame1@reddit
You'd hear a lot more stories if less LGBT+ kids from the midwest passed early. My senior year alone, 2 died in a drunk driving related crash and one was murdered near the school.
StutteringDan@reddit
I'm really sorry to that. 😥 I think our modern world could improve a lot by promoting inspiration for the future and positivity for the younger generation rather than (IMHO) that of the latter.
Seek out positivity in all aspects of life!
DasKapitalist@reddit
That's completely absurd, and I'll explain why:
1) Children aren't born crazy. Nor, barring a freak head injury, do they spontaneously become crazy. They're abused, neglected, or both into various maladaptive behaviours lumped under "mental illness".
2) Neglecting and/or abusing children is a crime.
3) If the child is well-parented (read: not neglected), and some rando like a neighbor abuses the child, the child is going to tell a parent and the parent will protect the child.
4) If the parent does nothing, that's neglect. A crime.
5) If the parent neglects or abuses the child directly, that's also a crime.
6) Medical care for children requires parental consent. So your "free mental health care" requires the parent to admit somebody committed a crime, please talk to my child about it in detail"
7) Outside of very rare "strangers in a van full of candy grabbed my kid and got arrested thank goodness", parental negligence pr abuse caused child "mental health" problems. I.e. the parents committed crimes.
8) Criminals dont like to confess crimes, so they're not going to avail their children of treatment. OR they'll lie their asses off, coerce the child to do the same, and pretend it's a Scooby Doo Mystery why Little Timmy identifies as a squirrelkin, is suffering crushing depression, and threatening violence.
9) Treating Scooby Doo mental problems is about as effective as treating Scooby Doo obesity problems. You eat 1000 calories a day of vegetables, exercise religiously, and magically weigh 400 lbs? How is a medical provider supposed to treat impossibly causeless problems?
PandorasFlame1@reddit
Congrats on immediately being wrong. Bye.
United-Advertising67@reddit
The Nashville school shooter had 20+ years of continuous mental health care and medication.
Go read Bad Therapy. The "mental health services" are making kids crazier, not healthier. Probably 100x more mental health resources are being consumed by children than 50 years ago and they are crazier and more violent than ever.
HAVARTHtheFRAIL@reddit
I don’t think it’s so much the lack of funding but the bureaucracy behind the funds. Local private schools charge less for yearly tuition than the state makes available for each child enrolled in public school.
Pherrot@reddit
I own many large psychological practices and they have tons of funds but refuse to allocate them to counselors. Why? They won’t tell me, even at school board meetings. The money doesn’t get spent and goes back into budget. It’s sad.
HAVARTHtheFRAIL@reddit
I was always under the impression that if the budget isn’t spent, the following years budget would be reduced due to (insert anything govt funded) not needing the funds. I have heard they usually wait right before the fiscal year to spend the remaining funds. I’m sure every giver entity has their own methods though.
InevitableTheOne@reddit
Exactly, there is literally no shortage of funds. The endless red tape and inefficient bueracracy causes these funds to be poorly allocated and sometimes even lost. And when its not red tape and bueracracy, its greedy corporate interests. We need to address these issues now, lives literally depend on it.
Sulring11@reddit
The red tape and backlog for mental health is the problem. Our kid was having severe depression issues, tried for more than 6 months to see BH. he finally told our PCP he was suicidal, which in MD is 100% strait to inpatient facility by state law. He was there for 10 days and terrified. No sheets on the bed, checked by staff with lights on at night every 15 minutes. Gets out, and it takes 9 months to get him before a BH counselor. 9 Months! Is it bureaucracy, red tape, broken system, not enough providers? All of the above? How can we get to "free" when we can't even get seen?
Krazybob613@reddit
I totally agree with you!
We carried Pocket knives in school continuously, and brought our Hunting Rifles and Shotguns ( very openly ) to school in our vehicles during hunting season and trap shooting occasions. And NOBODY ever got shot or even threatened by them.
What has changed?
I think I KNOW WHAT HAS CHANGED,
The essential Christian Principles have been driven out of our schools along with the REMOVAL of such standard decorations as the Clear Display of the Ten Commandments which are (were) a daily reminder of the basic values of Humanity!
I believe that ALL of the recent school violence is directly traceable to this particular CHANGE in the direction of public education in America.
It’s not gun control that we need, it’s a restoration of our Christian heritage that is necessary to correct the trajectory that our society is heading on.
DontGetTheFatGuy@reddit
The separation of church and state says your fairytales don't matter in the real world.
SuperRedpillmill@reddit
Social media is another reason.
Krazybob613@reddit
It certainly has not helped.
bubba_lexi@reddit
Bro, who the fuck is "we"? I'm as pro-gun as anyone, but I'm not going to tell a gun violence victim to "fuck off". I love the Second Amendment, but your love of it doesn’t give you the right to stomp on someone’s First Amendment just because they’ve experienced a tragedy that changed their point of view. People can use their tragedies to make any point they want, and people do it all the time. Drug users in recovery can warn children against using drugs, and drunk drivers can do the same.
"Being the victim of a mass shooting, surviving a mass shooting, or losing a loved one in a mass shooting does not make your opinion on guns or gun control any more legitimate. You do not get to use your tragedy to guilt-trip gun owners into giving up their rights, and any attempt to do so will be met with the response of 'fuck off.'"
That’s not pro-gun, that’s just being an asshole.
dirtysock47@reddit (OP)
Nobody's stomping on their 1A rights
They have the right to advocate for whatever laws they wish, and I have the right to tell them to go fuck themselves.
DontGetTheFatGuy@reddit
I'll remember that next time some bible-thumping re1ard says "thought and prayers".
Firearms-ModTeam@reddit
Your comment has been removed.
Miss spelling the word doesn’t mean it won’t get you flagged.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
Firearms-ModTeam@reddit
Attack the argument, not the user.
Your comment has been removed.
humpycove@reddit
Responsibility rests with the perpetrator.
Science-Compliance@reddit
Sorry, but responsibility also rests with the person that gave that child access to a gun. The kid was 14!
humpycove@reddit
Odd that you answer with emotion with a name like yours. Millions of children younger than that are supplied with guns for successful hunts every year if access is your concern.
t-stu2@reddit
I’m pro second amendment to the point I believe we shouldn’t have background checks for machine guns but I’m still fine with looking into potential charges for the parents. Supposedly this kid threatened a school shooting last school year. If the parents were negligent in preventing a known threat I am fine with them being charged. The responsibility rests with the perpetrator and with parents when negligence is clear. I don’t know if that’s the case here but it seems like a good candidate for further investigation on that front.
humpycove@reddit
Hard to school their kids with both parents working for 90k suv’s each, a half Million dollar house, 5-10k two week vacations, and 6k in cell phones in a four person family. Priorities sure have changed……
Learningstuff247@reddit
What?
ButtholePatrol_@reddit
So a 14 year old is responsible for their killing spree if the gun they used they obviously couldn’t purchase and most likely was secured through taking a family members easily accessible firearm? I’m pretty the responsibility is shared if not majority the person who made it so easy for the child to get access to the gun. This is like saying the ten year old who shoots their 5 year old sibling is the one ultimately responsible. Maybe think through your logic a little more.
Lina_Inverse@reddit
Nah miss me with the diffusion of responsibility bullshit. Less of that these days would only do us good.
Collective punishment isn't a road we want to go down because its a game everyone loses. Hold the individual perpetrators responsible for their intent to cause harm.
Chasing negligent liability is a race to the bottom where we all lose.
ButtholePatrol_@reddit
Yea, you’re gonna hold children responsible when parents are neglectful and basically hand their kids a deadly weapon…good luck convincing most the country that’s not a ridiculous thing to think. Children are under the care and responsibility of their guardian or parent. If you’re gonna suggest were charging ten year olds who shot their little brother w the gun daddy left out, you’ll be laughed out of any serious discussion.
Lina_Inverse@reddit
Criminally charging people for accidents is a rediculous proposition in a free society to begin with.
However, I understand the influence MADD and other groups of empty testers that feel the need to mother the rest of us and how big of a voting block that is.
That doesn't mean those people aren't stupid, power hungry, malicious, or more interested in virtue signaling online to appear compassionate to their parasocial friends rather than actually dealing with a problem.
Owlmechanic@reddit
I think I'm somewhere in between here.
I think the licensed gun owner should be held partially liable, as the gun owner SHOULD by the process of getting the license be required to abide basic child safety/access standards. (Locking the gun up, separating it from its ammunition - if not actively carried/in use)
I say SHOULD because many states already do this, Georgia is not one of them. It may become one of them, but it currently isn't - so we'll see if some of the most basic obvious standards start to be adopted a little more widely.
My guess is probably not, but a little accountability from the people who are legally recognized as responsible for both the weapon and the minor is where we should be. If they are incapable of that basic level of responsibility - no license. Seems simple.
I'm against gun bans, I'm also against irresponsible parents putting other people at risk out of neglect.
Lina_Inverse@reddit
I wouldn't mind licenses but for the people who issue them.
Gaurantee the license to all applicants at minimal cost and we can talk about it, and even then it's dicey because its a lot easier to tweak a lever on requirements.
Then again, I think voter id should be required under the same grounds. Voting for dumb shit certainly kills a lot more people and we don't need licenses for that.
ButtholePatrol_@reddit
I just can’t take you seriously. The mental gymnastic are…wow.
humpycove@reddit
Or the car keys, or the axe, or the butter knife, or the snacks that caused the diabetes, or the baseball bat………..sooooooo, take those away? Lock them up? Sue Louisville Slugger? All car manufactures? What is YOUR solution that is the cure for all mental illness and violence?
Level_Ad_6372@reddit
How many mass homicides are committed with butter knives?
ButtholePatrol_@reddit
Have you seen me say lock up anything or take them away. Projection seems strong as a focus of your arguments. Just because I point out the flaws in your logic doesn’t mean I’m anti gun. But your argument is silly at best.
humpycove@reddit
And again, you’re solution is what since you seem to have lost that but found the time to offer an unfounded offense to me?
ButtholePatrol_@reddit
I think you’re having a stroke. Slow down, kiddo.
Firearms-ModTeam@reddit
Attack the argument, not the user.
Your comment has been removed.
humpycove@reddit
So you are just pointing fingers with no solution?
ButtholePatrol_@reddit
If you mean I think whomever allowed easy access for a teenager to go on a mass shooting is partially, if not majority to blame, yes I’m pointing w finger. Basic logic dictates it and the law will to. Solution? Sure secure weapons so teenagers can’t acquire them by merely opening a cabinet. Seems easy enough.
Inspi@reddit
And the parents that likely ignored the child's mental health as well as gave free access to firearms that were not properly secured
humpycove@reddit
Can’t disagree……
aabum@reddit
Quite honestly, what you wrote is, at a minimum, going to make gun control folks ignore you while likely pissing off many of them.
An approach that will work:
Solutions to lower violent crimes. We know that taking guns away doesn't stop violent crime. That should be a no brainer, but far too many on the left side of this issue are a bit smooth brained in regard to this fact.
What are good solutions? No, it's no zero tolerance laws. Locking people up tends to make more criminals, not fewer. We need programs in at risk communities that help affect paradigm change in the mindset of these communities.
We need a total top to bottom change in how mental health care is provided in this country. Yes, that means some sort of universal health care. If we're going to improve the lives of at risk folks, then we have to productively treat their mental health issues. We need everyone to have easy access to that care. Yes, that means some sort of universal health care.
A federal credit or tax credit for folks buying safes. Real safes, not residential security containers. Maybe as part of a mandatory life skills class for kids, at least once in elementary, once in middle, and once in high school, that teaches about firearms and firearm safety.
DontGetTheFatGuy@reddit
Thsts because OP is a mental midget who thinks he's a high school badass.
lil_mikey87@reddit
I have never understood why schools are such a soft target. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out how to better secure schools.
Laurenz1337@reddit
Schools should not need to be "secured"
slayer_of_idiots@reddit
Devils advocate, this school had multiple resource officers and a plan in place for lockdowns.
Short of metal detectors at all entrances, the outcome here was about the best outcome you could have hoped for.
The reality is that 99.99% of kids aren’t a risk for shootings. You’re better off simply getting rid of the problem kids and at risk kids. They shouldn’t even be on campus. They would have all generally been expelled or shipped to a special needs school 50 years ago.
fingernuggets@reddit
I went to school in the hood for awhile. That’s exactly what they had. I don’t see why all schools aren’t locked down like that…
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
Probably because many states are too busy banning books and passing laws requiring religious propaganda to be posted in classrooms
lil_mikey87@reddit
I would much rather have banned books and kids be safe than being taught about drag queens and being gay or stuff that doesn’t need to be talked about in an elementary school.
When I was in school you hardly knew if your teacher was married or had kids let alone what their political opinions were or what they identify as.
fingernuggets@reddit
Nah. We knew the track coach and the assistant football coach were banging in the locker rooms on lunch.
Purbl_Dergn@reddit
Nice segue into something completely irrelevant.
IHeartSm3gma@reddit
Your bottom comment needs to be pinned in r/teachers but they don’t want to hear that
smokeyser@reddit
Anti-gun people will just cry that you're trying to turn schools into prisons if you do anything to harden the school. The only acceptable solution is a fantasy where 400 million guns magically disappear. Apparently even if that takes 100 years, it's better than kids having to look out of the classroom windows and see... A fence.
Bschmabo@reddit
I agree. Ever been to a high end jewelry store, or bank, most of which are hard targets with armed guards? Did those places feel like prisons? You don’t see many mass shootings in banks or jewelry stores, do you? Why should our schools, which house our most valuable asset — our children — be left more unprotected than banks and jewelry stores?
Blindsnipers36@reddit
How can you call them your most valued asset on this post?
Bschmabo@reddit
Ah, the righteous indignation is just … 😘🤌
Why do you want to leave schools as unprotected soft targets?
Do you value children less than money and jewelry?
Firefox_Alpha2@reddit
So schools should be unprotected, but politicians get armed guards at capitol buildings?
LiberalLamps@reddit
They had two school resource officers there, shooter surrendered when confronted by them. Good guys with guns stopped this asshat shooter in their tracks about as quickly as possible once the event happened, but that doesn't address the underlying issue of why so many young people want to kill other people.
Put_It_All_On_Eclk@reddit
It's hormones. It's not a coincidence that preteen males and elderly males have the same sex hormone levels and spree killing rates. Try comparing a graph of male murder rate by age to male testosterone levels. They're basically the same graph.
Searril@reddit
Pretty sure we had these same hormones when I was a kid and a lot even had guns in their vehicles, yet nobody shot each other.
Of course, we weren't all drowning in pharmaceuticals either...
SicSemperTieFighter3@reddit
Maybe because public schools are a zoo and prison combo
rDevilFruitIdeasMod@reddit
They feel like they aren't listened too, misunderstood and don't have a voice. But they know how to get the entire country and a big chunk of the world to listen their "manifeso", since every news channel will read it on air for millions to hear.
Ruthless4u@reddit
Sad reality is even if you harden schools enough there are easy ways to get to the children, they even involve firearms to be effective.
SOUTHPAWMIKE@reddit
Even if you harden schools, there's no guarantee that that armed School Resource Officer won't just chicken the fuck out, like that piece of shit who should have tried to save those kids in Parkland. (I'm not saying we shouldn't try, but fuck that dude in particular.)
PoopyPantsBiden@reddit
Even if you wear a seatbelt, there's no guarantee that you won't be seriously injured or killed in a car accident. lol Almost nothing in life is truly 100% guaranteed, so I think it's pointless and counterproductive to say that; it only sows doubt as to the efficacy of the proposed solution while simultaneously giving anti-gunners something to keep parroting like a broken record in their attempts to block any solutions that don't involve more infringements on our rights.
PacoBedejo@reddit
Frankly, if anyone cared about those kids, the state wouldn't be raising them.
lil_mikey87@reddit
I understand what you are saying but some people don’t want to be responsible for their kids education.
PacoBedejo@reddit
Yes. Many parents don't want to rear their own children. Nobody should be surprised that they willingly send them to the big government soft-target and limply hope for the best. They care more about choosing a safe kennel for their dog. It's pathetic.
yashatheman@reddit
Should probably look into why mass shootings are so common in the USA in the first place. It's a societal issue caused by late-stage capitalism and the failure of society to help citizens with mental health issues exarcerbated by the easy access to weapons
lil_mikey87@reddit
How does capitalism have anything to do with shootings?
yashatheman@reddit
Because the housing crises, very poor wages and the rising prices last 20 years have left a lot of people in the west struggling to make it by, adding to the growing mental health issues and radicalizing people towards violent actions in a hope for change.
At the same time the rich have never been richer, and this fact which is very well known just makes it even easier for unhealthy and poor people to become radicalized
TacTurtle@reddit
Israeli pretty well figured out, secure school campus + armed entrance guard = few to no school shootings.. Not sure how basic security like a bank or gas station can be controversial.
lil_mikey87@reddit
It doesn’t fit a narrative of what they are trying to push.
MxthKvlt@reddit
Well the “gun free zone” signs are essentially invitations for mass killing events to the sick. Signs have never protected anyone… ever… take my tax money, put 2-3 armed guards in every school and make them state employees. Hold them accountable for securing all doors and entrances, hold them accountable for doing active patrols, hold them accountable for protecting innocent life if it falls down to having to do so. But seeing 2-3 dudes in full gear with a rifle and handgun should deter most would be offenders from that particular area at least; and if they aren’t deterred then we have 2-3 people trained and ready to make contact with an enemy and neutralize the threat if needed.
lil_mikey87@reddit
I agree 100% or anyone who is getting out of the military/veteran offer them that job.
SicSemperTieFighter3@reddit
That would make school even more prison like and lead to more shootings.
LOL_YOUMAD@reddit
Yeah securing the schools should be the priority for this type of situation. Really that’s the big factor in all of these situations, these guys pick schools because they know it’s mostly defenseless children and a few teachers of who are not armed. If a person with a machete gets into a classroom and barricades the door behind them it would end the same way as some young kids and 1 25-60 year old likely woman teacher isnt gonna be able to fight back realistically.
There are always going to be bad people and if it’s not one way they will find another. If they can’t get in the building in the first place you stop that mostly. Yeah you’ll still have students get around that as they are students and supposed to be there but there are other methods you can implement like metal detectors and stuff to help there.
RedBlankIt@reddit
Who’s gonna pay for the guards? The broke ass schools?
leadbetterthangold@reddit
Put police substations in schools. Plenty of time cops spend at a desk.
WesternCowgirl27@reddit
You could also have retired officers volunteer for school security. That’s what my neighbor does, and he loves being able to go in and help protect students every day.
TacitusCallahan@reddit
Retired LEOs are actually kinda a hot commodity in the security world. An entire volunteer force wouldn't likely retain officers well. I was a CSO for a university with its own police force for a while. A ton of time, money and funding actually goes into keeping it running properly. It's great your neighbor does it but it will encounter issues on a large scale.
You also have to keep in mind what kinda security you can provide and what the school district is willing to accept. Unarmed security which is the vast majority of the industry is generally pretty useless. It's there to lower insurance rates. Properly armed and trained security officers require certifications, experience and a higher tier of liability insurance that someone has to pay for.
WesternCowgirl27@reddit
This is true. I grew up in a well-funded red school district in Colorado, and we had armed security and a police officer assigned to our high school. I believe he also volunteers in the same district.
If people want to take the matter seriously and fund this type of protection for the school, then they need to come to a general agreement on what that looks like. I’m also for arming and training teachers (there are plenty who would be up for the task and who are already CCW holders). There’s things to be done to make schools a tough target.
maybejane@reddit
This is probably a dumb question but don’t criminals and people who want to report crimes go to police stations? I feel like these types of interactions aren’t what I would want my hypothetical children to be exposed to daily.
I kind of hate the idea of creating a police-state-like environment for children in general, though.
sanesociopath@reddit
Not half bad.
But just to poke some holes in this it would make the schools even more prison like and now any of the dick cops no one likes interacting with that are usually isolated away are around out kids all day.
leadbetterthangold@reddit
Armed school resource officer stopped this guy. Call them cops or resource officers if it makes people feel better, but harden the schools and protect the students.
sanesociopath@reddit
Not trying to make an acab post or say no security at schools but there's definitely bad cops and there's definitely a limit where it's like what are we even doing with these schools where the environment is thay of incarnation
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
Yeah that works out great when they arrest black kids for being smart mouthed or vaping or whatever. I saw a school resource officer beating his K9 golden retriever not long ago at a school near me. Those are definitely the people I want hanging around my kids.
benmarvin@reddit
Could actually save money by combining facilities.
ThePenultimateNinja@reddit
This is a very important point. There was a mass stabbing at a children's summer holiday activity in the UK recently, with almost identical results (teenage perpetrator, 3 dead, 10 injured):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Southport_stabbing
Anyone who is trying to make this about guns is an accomplice to these mass murders, because they are diverting attention away from the actual causes of these events.
noobprodigy@reddit
When was the last time there were 20+ killed in a knife attack?
FuNiOnZ@reddit
The overwhelming majority of school shootings are single digit numbers of deaths, most are somewhere between 0-3 deaths total
noobprodigy@reddit
Yes, I'm aware of that. That doesn't answer my question though.
FuNiOnZ@reddit
Your question is just an attempt at muddying the waters though. The other guy provided a very real scenario where the results mirror our common school shooting events over here. You have taken that and then exaggerated the number in an attempt to downplay the capability of knives.
We generally do not have school shootings that end in 20 or more deaths also, Virginia Tech, Sandy Hook, and Uvalde are the only ones we've had that have had that many. That's 3 since we've started recording them in 1764 (and one of them was from a kid using handguns)
noobprodigy@reddit
Okay, let's scale it down. How about 5+ deaths?
ryguy28896@reddit
Because this is one of those solutions OP mentioned that we suggest and one that gets shot down.
"Kids shouldn't feel like they go to school in a jail!"
Parapraxium@reddit
Three words: gun free zone
It's something the vast majority of mass shooting targets have in common
No-Researcher-6186@reddit
Didnt pennsylvania just pass a law hardening schools by mandating a school officer? I'm pennsylvanian so I should probably know but I can't find anything about it even tho I was sure we did something like that relatively recently.
L-V-4-2-6@reddit
My understanding is that they were even warned ahead of time.
LagerthaKicksAss@reddit
For everyone coming down on the FBI for not doing something about this kid that was "...on their radar...", what exactly do you think they should have done? If the kid hadn't done anything yet, wouldn't there have been a big hue and cry about federal "overreach" and violating an "innocent" kid's rights, etc.?
This isn't "Minority Report", folks. Holding parents responsible for these little monsters is a good move, but for the households who don't have any weapons yet Junior gets his hands on one anyway and wasn't giving the parents any "mass murder" vibes, what can anyone do to stop those situations?
dirtysock47@reddit (OP)
The kid threatened to commit a school shooting, which is already a crime.
Sodak01@reddit
I’ve grown up with a very responsible gun owning father. I want to know how this kid got ahold of a firearm. There needs to be consequences for not securing your firearms from children.
Comfortable-Ad1517@reddit
I’m confused, are people thinking of murder or robbery actually deterred by gun control laws? Wouldn’t they just find a way to get a gun anyways since they intend to break the law?
Varnu@reddit
An upside to every school shooting is that I get to play this game where I go onto Facebook and count how often posts from the pro-gun folks spell it "trajety".
DontBelieveTheirHype@reddit
Would much rather deal with people who misspell words over people who fabricate nonsense out of thin air and want to pass laws on those things they made up.
Varnu@reddit
To be clear, I've never really been afraid of anything to the point that I feel the need to buy guns myself, but I don't want to disparage people who do find carrying guns around to be comforting. And for those people who do buy guns for this reason, disparage means "to put down".
rockstarsball@reddit
"I've lead a sheltered life in which i still believe i can fully trust the police to protect me despite all the evidence to the contrary. I ignore fact based data due to it not supporting my chosen side. My milquetoast upbringing and mundane life is clearly a cross section of what all of the country is like. I therefore promote others into relinquishing a civil rights due to the fact that I'm not using it and join me in an existence of mediocrity"
that's a well worded argument you made there, unfortunately for you, the spelling may be right but spelling doesn't matter much while showing you belong in remedial elementary civics
and for those who come to a hobbyist subreddit to shit on the hobby for that small fleeting moment of superiority before realizing how insignificant they are in the world; "relinquish" means to get rid of
Varnu@reddit
Hobbyist. Heh. People who feel safer with a gun have a child's conception of what's scary. The most common thing gun people do with their guns is nothing. The second most common thing they do is threaten people with them when they are angry. The third most common thing they do is use them to take the coward's way out. Three of the gun nuts I know have offed themselves. And not for any good reason as far as I know. Just had a little bit of a hard time. Which would surprise you more?: 1) Your gun collecting friend from high school took the coward's way out and is dead from a self inflicted gunshot wound. 2) Your gun collecting friend from high school stopped a burglary at the gas station and will be receiving the key to the city.
Gun people just like feeling less weak when they have a gun. You have guns because you like guns! That's why you people go to gun conventions. That's why you read gun magazines. None of you give a shit about home security. None of you go to home security conventions. None of you read Padlock Monthly. None of you have a Facebook pictures posing with a home security system.
DontBelieveTheirHype@reddit
Absolutely ROASTED
JBCTech7@reddit
i bet you're also pretty euphoric, huh?
You're like one of them old school redditors. The ones that used to say "Tip of the hat to m'lady" and all that shit, right?
yrunsyndylyfu@reddit
r/iamverysmart
giraffesinhats@reddit
Meanwhile in Chicago…
Other_Movie_5384@reddit
Your so silly.
Those don't matter cause i can't twist that to take away your rights.
Now be quiet and just let it happen already.
Now give up your ability to defend yourself.
When I go on a crime spree I want you utterly defenseless so I can exploit you without fear of repercussions.
CornelEast@reddit
Sorry, I’m new here. Why would someone anti-gun see those statistics as irrelevant to the anti-gun cause? If ~80% of homicides use guns…why would that not be a part of the argument against guns? Why would “the same number of people were killed in three days in Chicago as were killed yesterday in a high school” be something an anti-gun person would ignore? I’m missing something here, and I’m guessing it’s because I don’t know much about guns - what is it? Is it because they probably used a hand gun? Why is that something?
Other_Movie_5384@reddit
Okay most gun deaths especially Chicago.
Are gang violence. Sadly it very prominent.
No one talks about it cause all the firearms they operate are usually stolen or illegally owned.
On top of that the police just allow them to operate out of fear of facing retaliation from social media. Which has happend.
And it's gang on gang so no one cares and just allow the shitshow to continue.
And their plan is to take all the legally owned firearms from citizens which means the criminals will now never have to face retaliation from their victims. Unless of course they are a criminal to.
And they won't acknowledge a problem because many of the gangs would for some reason God only knows social media support. And the gun grabbers fear the hit to their social media precesnse.
So they remain silent. Even after all their failed gun reforms continue to fail. And violence continues.
NiftyJohnXtreme@reddit
Imagine writing that first point and not really taking a hard look at yourself. I'm convinced you LIKE watching kids die. It's not like you're going to have to turn in your guns. Gun control is more about making it harder for people that shouldn't have them to get them. Use some common sense.
dirtysock47@reddit (OP)
Kamala Harris says otherwise
civilianweapon@reddit
School shooters were always troubled kids on some kind of watchlist. Why don’t we just get rid of those kids?
Because all school shooters were troubled kids, but VERY FEW troubled kids become school shooters. There are far more students whose less-than-Brady-Bunch attitude has landed them on a watchlist than you would think. Separating all of them into their own school would be financially unfeasible, not to mention unfair. These aren’t lawbreaking kids. Just unhappy kids. A very few of whom decide to shoot people.
Most gun owners are law-abiding, and can be trusted with any type of firearm.
And shootings are not made worse by the type of firearm used. In fact, most mass shootings (going by FBI reports) involve handguns. The third-worst mass shooting, Virginia Tech in 2007, with 32 people killed, involved handguns. The two worst, Orlando and Las Vegas, did involve rifles, and fatalities were 50% and 100% higher, but these are statistical outliers. The majority involve handguns.
So, on that point, I am uncompromising. I don’t believe in outlawing certain types of guns, or forbidding anyone who hasn’t committed a crime from owning a gun.
I want gun ownership to reflect the policies of other nations with high rates of gun ownership and very low rates of gun violence. I want gunowners limited to two guns. Two of any type, but only two.
That is the difference in the United States. We don’t have more violent people, or more mental illness. We’re the only nation that allows it citizens to accumulate mini-arsenals of firearms. That’s too many to keep track of, and why so many of them end up stolen. When I hear gunowners say they’re not even sure how many guns they have, all I can think is “That’s not a well-regulated militia.”
You have two hands. You can have two guns. It is not the case that you really need a special type of gun for each species of animal you hunt. All the species we’ve hunted to extinction were hunted with muskets. We can be overrun with pheasants if it reduces deaths from gun violence.
As far as the OP’s original argument goes, I promise that telling survivors of mass shootings that you don’t care about their experience, and saying out loud that the deaths of children in school leaves you unmoved, will not persuade more people to see the value of your opinion. Honesty is not always appreciated.
SJay_Plays@reddit
No one is saying they don't care about their experiences. Just that you shouldn't make laws and infringe rights based on emotional arguments.
No one said they were unmoved by the deaths of children. Just that you shouldn't make laws and infringe rights based on emotional arguments.
dirtysock47@reddit (OP)
And before anyone asks, the shooter used an AR, so be prepared for more gun control bs.
GMPnerd213@reddit
It's always the first question anyone asks as if it matters. Kid could've used a pump action shotgun or a pistol and still would have shot and killed people. Banning assault weapons doesn't actually stop school shootings, it just changes the shooters choice in tools to carry out the act.
Science-Compliance@reddit
Why do so many guns rights people say this bullshit? The AR platform is unequivocally a more efficient killing device than a pump action shotgun or pistol. If you want to defend gun rights, you can start by not spouting contradictory bullshit.
GMPnerd213@reddit
Lmao because it’s true. By all means Mr. Ballistics expert, please explain how the AR platform is more deadly? The rate of fire is the same as any other semiautomatic pistol or shotgun. The magazine capacity is the same as a standard glock pistol extended mag. The .223/5.56 has far less deliverable force and penetration than a shotgun loaded with 00 buck and especially less than a standard 1 oz slug. So Mr commando, please tell me how it’s deadlier?
Science-Compliance@reddit
AR is more stable and easier to aim and produce follow-up shots than a pistol, has much higher muzzle velocity/energies than a typical semi-automatic pistol, more devastating terminal ballistics if shot with typical loads / barrel length to produce high enough muzzle velocities for tumbling upon entering wound cavity, can fire more rapidly than shotguns, can carry more rounds than any shotgun without some kind of drum magazine, is more accurate at longer ranges than a shotgun, again has less recoil and is easier to handle than a shotgun. Denying that the AR family of guns isn't more efficient and versatile than pistols and shotguns is effing stupid and points to you either not being knowledgeable about firearms or (more likely) disingenuous. Protecting gun rights starts by not spouting bullshit.
GMPnerd213@reddit
lol you’re taking about tactical advantages in mid range combat engagement situations. This is a school shooting in an enclosed space with shots less than 25 yards. Which is exactly why the deadliest school shooting in history was done using two glock pistols. Now if you want to argue recoil management is easier for a specific situation of a child shooter that’s an argument you could make but for an adult a pistol is easier to conceal and offers much better maneuverability in that application. As far deliverable force a shotgun is not only going to offer far more deliverable energy but also gives the shooter the ability to breach entryways that are locked. The only situations where the AR is going to produce a larger body count is situations where the shooter is taking longer shots and spraying a crowd like in Vegas and the parade.
ThePenultimateNinja@reddit
Or just a knife:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Southport_stabbing
Put_It_All_On_Eclk@reddit
People in firearm-restricted countries hit double digits frequently:
List of rampage killers in China - Wikipedia
List of rampage killers in Oceania and Maritime Southeast Asia - Wikipedia
It's part of the reason why framing the issue as a mass shooting problem and not a spree killing problem is a biased argument. Apparently people kill with whatever they can get their hands on.
ThePenultimateNinja@reddit
And unfortunately, there are a lot of imbeciles that think that banning objects will somehow stop it from happening.
NiftyJohnXtreme@reddit
Not stop it, but massively, and I mean MASSIVELY decrease the numbers of these killings. It's right in the data. The US has an insanely higher amount of mass killings, like it's not even close.
ThePenultimateNinja@reddit
No, you are making the false assumption that banning firearms would prevent it happening, and that is absurd. You are one of the imbeciles I was referring to.
We know that mass killers who can't get guns use other weapons instead, often kitchen knives. Did you not click the links above?
The worst mass killing in modern history was carried out with a truck. If someone decides to kill a bunch of people, they will find a way to do it. This is not a problem that can be solved by banning things.
NiftyJohnXtreme@reddit
You are completely missing the point. And you also can't read.
GodofWar1234@reddit
Banning semiautomatic rifles (because that’s what they are, they’re not “assault weapons”) is a cosmetic bandaid on the larger issue. ARs are such a huge deal, yet nobody talks about pistols being used far more often in crimes.
creative_usr_name@reddit
But banning all guns works*. See Australia or UK.
* doesn't stop other methods of violence
dirtysock47@reddit (OP)
Santa Fe shooter killed 10 and injured 13 with a pump action shotgun.
fishman15151515@reddit
"hIgH cApAcItY mAgS mUsT bE bAnNeD"
Ahshitbackagain@reddit
Election year and the dems need a push. Unfortunately they have zero issues sacrificing children to push their agenda so be prepared for a few more where the shooter dies or we never hear about him again.
DANOM1GHT@reddit
Are you saying the Dems are orchestrating shootings to push gun control?
Ahshitbackagain@reddit
That is 100% what I'm saying.
LiberalLamps@reddit
I would have disagreed before, but after seeing what they did to kids during covid, I believe it.
celbii@reddit
You know trump was in charge during covid right?
Legionodeath@reddit
He was in charge the first year. The next 2, 3 if you count 2023, was Biden. The colossal fuckup that was the US response to COVID, was largely on ol' Joe.
celbii@reddit
Trump pushed the vax lmao
Legionodeath@reddit
For 1 year... And the vaccine is not the sum total of Americas COVID response you massive tit lmao
EmptyBrook@reddit
The gun crowd tends to overlap the anti-vax/covid denier crowd. No surprise you got downvoted
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
Sorry facts don’t fit their narrative. Obviously kids dying from covid is fine as long as they don’t miss getting bullied at recess. So many people willingly ignore the fact that people were dropping like flies in the early Covid days
Ahshitbackagain@reddit
100%
LordGuppy@reddit
I don't find value in pushing this narrative. Even if you believe it to be true, there isn't enough evidence and pushing conspiracies just make people on the fence question your rationality.
Ahshitbackagain@reddit
Lucky for me, people on the fence don't concern me. My views and opinions are based on what I see, hear, and experience. Question my rationality as much as you wish. It doesn't make me wrong.
Questionable_MD@reddit
It does depending on what your are looking at and listening to, and what you choose to avoid and ignore…
MooreChelsL8ly@reddit
Agreed!! Someone’s brain might not be fully developed even at his age. Time for some fMRI scans because his lack of empathy for victims is staggering. Just based off this post, he is ticking several boxes on Hare’s psychopathy checklist.
Major_Nutt@reddit
Thank you Doctor Armchair.
MooreChelsL8ly@reddit
You’re welcome Major Nutjob.
ButtholePatrol_@reddit
Pot calling the kettle black don’t ya think? This whole threads main point was that dying children will never politically sway you and it’s pointed out that if you’re kid died or were a victim your opinions means nothing…
tknames@reddit
What do you mean by “we” in your post? The VAST majority of gun owners want additional background checks on private party sales, closing straw purchases, etc. Check the stats.
Additionally, there are more school shootings in the year than there are days in the year. The conversation will always be had after/during one. Get over it, and engage the conversation instead of saying hyperbolic statements about bodies being cold.
As to willingness to compromise, I’m old enough to remember why game wardens have more rights than normal police. Hunters openly and willingly let go of certain legal rights to ensure safety of the activity, animals, and people. It’s odd that after Lafayettes reign and the shift of the gun lobby suddenly gun owners entrenched in an all or nothing mentality.
For what it’s worth I own dozens of guns in a purple state. But I have children and am scared of this very real possibility. The fact I’m having to have these talks with my kids scares the shit out of me. And them.
RogueFiveSeven@reddit
"Nope, the kid definitely wasn't the problem. It's the inanimate object."
DallasMedic96@reddit
I mean, it’s right before an election, so that was already on the docket before this even happened
Accuracy-by-Volume@reddit
Has that actually been determined? I haven’t seen any reporting on what was used.
dirtysock47@reddit (OP)
A livestream from a student at the school is making its rounds, and you can clearly see an AR that the shooter dropped on the ground.
CandidCantaloupe8930@reddit
Are you sure he used Americas favorite sporting rifle to shoot them kids?
Rabbi_Kosher_Ham@reddit
This post should be pinned for good regarding this topic. Well written and the comments are fantastic! Thank you for sharing this.
lazy_elfs@reddit
So.. mr. Open letters is firmly on the “thoughts and prayers”.. muh rights are greater than your kids life.. murica
outlawactual1228@reddit
My job is armed security in a school. My job is literally a big part of the solution to this problem. I check every door on that campus, both exterior and classroom, multiple times per day to ensure they are locked. I constantly walk around the campus mainly to ensure gates and fences are secured and to have a "presence" to the public. When I'm not walking around the campus, I'm monitoring cameras. If I think anyone looks even remotely suspicious, I go challenge them. I ensure school board ID is visible at all times and any students that are out of area are escorted back to where they are supposed to be. I really do believe that having a "Guardian", as FL calls us, that cares about the mission of the program is the key to preventing these disasters and deterring would-be threats. I reread this before I posted and it sounds kind of mall ninja-ish but I don't care. I care about my job and I'm good at it.
Science-Compliance@reddit
Maybe they should clone you and dispatch the clones at other schools.
guachumalakegua@reddit
Great post, I don’t usually hang out here but could you point me to the solutions that have been provided for avoiding school shootings.
Zeratul277@reddit
Your fear shouldn't bar my right to self defense. We can talk about protecting kids but OP is right, anti-gun people hate any reasonable proposition.
Science-Compliance@reddit
But I also hear so many gun people spouting bullshit, too, when such things happen, like pretending that an AR-style rifle isn't a more efficient killing device than other platforms like pistols or shotguns.
LayYourGhostToRest@reddit
School shooting: "We need (insert things we already do that do nothing) to save these kids!"
Black on black shooting: "Now isn't the time. People are mourning."
They want nothing more than control.
LowKeyCurmudgeon@reddit
PS why does this keep happening at schools and never (I think) at police stations?
Blindsnipers36@reddit
R u asking why students don't shoot up Police stations?
Beretta_junkie@reddit
We protect money more than children. That says it all in itself…
TheStiffySong@reddit
A thought provoking comment.
Blindsnipers36@reddit
You say, on a thread that's about protecting guns more than guns, without a hint of irony
Beretta_junkie@reddit
Armored cars with bulletproof glass, plate carriers, Rifles and pistols with spare mags….highly trained paramilitary guards to high tech security systems. Meanwhile, metal detectors and poorly trained resource officers for the kids..
SniperSRSRecon@reddit
Yes and no. Most bank security are told to surrender. Money is protected more by insurance.
Slicelker@reddit
Banks hold relatively tiny amounts of physical money.
Beretta_junkie@reddit
Again, I don’t see many armed guards protecting schools..
SniperSRSRecon@reddit
I’m not saying you’re entirely wrong, there was some information you were lacking.
AzraelTheDankAngel@reddit
We send more money to Israel and Ukraine than to protecting schools
YakFragrant502@reddit
55.cB vs 3.xB, but we won’t talk about that, Ukrainians > American children
NinjaBuddha13@reddit
There it is, right on schedule. Knew it couldn't be an election year without a high publicity mass shooting event. Anyone got the odds on it being a Daniel Defense?
DANOM1GHT@reddit
Wild the number of people on this sub posting false flag theories.
Blindsnipers36@reddit
Because they can't actually morally defend their position if they accept reality
San_Diego_Wildcat_67@reddit
I mean the guy who tried to assassinate Trump was using his dad's Daniel Defense.
But yeah, it is suspicious that these high school age mass shooters are using ridiculously expensive weapons. Those kids should be running around with a cheapass Colt knockoff.
hemingways-lemonade@reddit
We have multiple high profile mass shootings every year whether or not there's an election. Conspiracy theory dog whistles just make gun owners look bad. Keep those stupid takes to yourself.
JBCTech7@reddit
50/50 odds this was a psyop to help harris.
I wouldn't put anything past the party of pedos.
fatogato@reddit
Regardless of election year, the US has high publicity mass shootings.
Robthebank1@reddit
I don't know but my bet is a DDm4v7 with Eotech and the vertical foregrip all the way at the end of the rail in Factory packaging location
Oxidized_Shackles@reddit
Surely the feds know we've caught on to that by now.
Robthebank1@reddit
Here's the thing they don't don't care because the vast majority of Americans haven't because the overwhelming majority of Americans will entirely forget about this shooting as soon as it's no longer in the new cycle and replace by the next story
Oxidized_Shackles@reddit
That's true. They made sure this story burned out before this information and who cares what a bunch of gUn NuTs think. We can scream ddm4/eoTech until we're blue in the face, but your average voter has no idea what ddm4 even means.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
There it is, right on schedule. Knew there couldn’t be a murder of school children without a redditor making a post about how the government kills children for political points. Anyone got odds on it being posted by a Russian asset?
hemingways-lemonade@reddit
These conspiracy theories get dumber and dumber with each shooting. 20 elementary school students were killed a decade ago in one of the bluest states while a liberal president was in office and that wasn't enough to pass gun control at a federal level. Nothing will come of this one either.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
So to your point of claiming anyone that survives a mass shooting etc doesn’t have a more valid opinion on guns.
Why does owning a gun make your opinion anymore valid and give you the moral high ground to tell these people to fuck off?
That might be the single most tone deaf response to a mass shooting of children that I have ever seen. And I’ve been hanging around this sub for years.
ParkerVH@reddit
Or a PSA.
Malevolent_turtl@reddit
FBI’s budget must be getting low
CptSandbag73@reddit
https://imgur.com/a/9DtDX3Z
HellBringer97@reddit
Every time
ToiletTime4TinyTown@reddit
It’s all about how the event is sold to the public and the emotional heartstrings. People see a tragedy like this and want to start emotionally legislating. Yet they will pass fatal wrecks on the highway daily and think “I need more money for a bigger and better car “
sgtapone87@reddit
This argument would make sense if there weren’t decades of legislation forcing car manufacturers to make cars safer and safer, engineering research to make roads safer, and, you know, licensing and required training to own or operate a vehicle.
Suddenly_silent856@reddit
The Government could solve and stop all school shootings tomorrow if they wanted to. The fact that it’s still happening means they’re allowing it. They don’t want to lose a crucial gun control talking point.
Hysteria113@reddit
How many of you have had a child die from a gunshot wound at school?
barto5@reddit
As someone that owns guns and has no desire to give them up, what do you see as a solution to this sort of crime?
SuperRedpillmill@reddit
Hardening security at schools.
WesternCzar@reddit
Just found out from this post…..
SuperRedpillmill@reddit
We are a pretty small town but it’s been all over the news.
LOL_YOUMAD@reddit
Yeah this one isn’t getting much attention. Usually I’ll see something on Facebook or from a news site via social media and I really didn’t see anything until this post.
CandidCantaloupe8930@reddit
It’s old news now. I’m old enough to remember when you could vaguely recall which school shooting was being discussed. Too many now but what can we do. Just a part of life I guess 🤷
direwolf106@reddit
You’re out of line but these getting less traction is actually going to help reduce them. Suicides aren’t really talked about because if you talk about someone committing suicide you increase the chances of someone else doing it. They are somewhat contagious in a way.
Most mass shootings are essentially violent suicides and are contagious. The less we talk about them the less they will happen.
SuperRedpillmill@reddit
This happened in my town.
MapleSurpy@reddit
PLEASE NOTE: We allow pro-gun and anti-gun users to use this sub freely, if your intention is to have a civil conversation.
Users (pro OR anti-gun) who come here to start drama, start fights, and throw around insults will be immediately and permanently removed from the sub.
I've already removed and banned 3 pro-gun users and 1 anti-gun user due to this post.
Please be calm, and act like adults. Thank you
Krazybob613@reddit
I totally agree with you!
We carried Pocket knives in school continuously, and brought our Hunting Rifles and Shotguns ( very openly ) to school in our vehicles during hunting season and trap shooting occasions. And NOBODY ever got shot or even threatened by them.
What has changed?
I think I KNOW WHAT HAS CHANGED,
The essential Christian Principles have been driven out of our schools along with the REMOVAL of such standard decorations as the Clear Display of the Ten Commandments which are (were) a daily reminder of the basic values of Humanity!
I believe that ALL of the recent school violence is directly traceable to this particular CHANGE in the direction of public education in America.
It’s not gun control that we need, it’s a restoration of our Christian heritage that is necessary to correct the trajectory that our society is heading on.
that_one_2a_femboy@reddit
here's an idea.
any time someone says "we need to ban guns so people don't shoot up schools" or similar, just say "you're right, we should also ban cars because of drunk drivers and speeders"
same logic applies, but they won't agree to one, because it might affect them
funny how that works...
Bschmabo@reddit
Or ban alcohol. There are 10,000 drunk driving deaths in the US every year. You are about 100x more likely to be randomly killed by a drunk driver than by a mass shooter. Alcohol also is a pure vice with no benefit to society, unlike firearms which provide self/home defense and help prevent governments from falling into tyranny. So if we are truly concerned with saving lives, alcohol should be the first thing we look at banning.
But of course, all you will hear is crickets. People simply like having drinks more than they care to save 10,000 lives per year.
that_one_2a_femboy@reddit
didn't you already ban alcohol once?
Bschmabo@reddit
Yup, in the 1920s. That didn’t last long. People love alcohol!
Bschmabo@reddit
I am a strong 2A supporter.
I believe one step we should take is to pass a law that makes parents viciously liable for crimes committed with a gun that they negligently allow to fall into the hands of a minor. I have kids, and as long as they live in my house, all of my guns will be secured in biometric safes that only I and my wife can access. There needs to be criminal consequences to deter parents from letting their kids get access to guns unsupervised.
BiaggioSklutas@reddit
Please elaborate because I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here.
ashooner@reddit
Arm literally every citizen, and trust no one. FREEDOM!
BiaggioSklutas@reddit
Lol hand grenades for all!
TheMartialCinephile@reddit
Make schools hard targets and better mental health services.
ashooner@reddit
Arm literally every citizen, and trust no one. FREEDOM!
BiaggioSklutas@reddit
If we learned anything from Uvalde, it's that having a bunch of police at a school isn't necessarily enough. But as to the million dollar question...
How? What would this look like?
CandidCantaloupe8930@reddit
How do we fix crazy? Are we talking forced institution? Many that need help don’t seek it. Perhaps a national test that helps government confirm your sanity? Can we stop crazy from going to schools? Concerts? From anywhere where people congregate? Tough one….
Beebjank@reddit
Seeking mental help is a significantly more difficult process than you might think. The US is behind in mental health solutions.
thetainrbelow@reddit
Talking to you /r liberalgunowners
WhyRedditBlowsDick@reddit
Hey at least reddit is finally admitting 2A is a Republican thing.
Funny how any other time I'm always hearing about how Conservatives are so much worse for gun rights...
thetainrbelow@reddit
It's never been a liberal thing. They're temporary gun owners would give them up in a heartbeat if they could.
thetainrbelow@reddit
That ass hat blocked me lol
DANOM1GHT@reddit
You know what you won't see at r/liberalgunowners - mass upvoting of false flag theories for school shootings.
thetainrbelow@reddit
Found the r/liberalgunowners aficionado
DANOM1GHT@reddit
Tell me I'm wrong.
thetainrbelow@reddit
You're not. And I get that. We just don't respect liberal gun owners. They vote against themselves consistently
DANOM1GHT@reddit
That's your opinion. Y'all need to clean house on these school shooter false flag claims before you deserve an ounce of respect.
thetainrbelow@reddit
Don't really give a shit what you say . I haven't said shit about the false flag. Or anything of the sort. I've only stated you fucks consistently vote against yourselves and the rights of everyone else. Def don't deserve any of our respect.
DANOM1GHT@reddit
Clean up your own house. Smells like shit in here.
B1893@reddit
I've made all of these points on numerous occasions, in varying degrees of eloquence and civility.
The anti-gunners don't care about any of them. They're incapable of thinking rationally on the matter. Or they just refuse to.
LynnDickeysKnees@reddit
Hoplophobia is a hell of a drug.
B1893@reddit
It's not a drug. It's a mental illness.
LynnDickeysKnees@reddit
Don't know the "hell of a drug" meme, huh?🤣
B1893@reddit
Ah, I missed the reference.
InevitableTheOne@reddit
I think a lot of liberal/anti-gunners fall for the "everything or nothing" trap. Hell, look at orange man bad. They could easily say things a long the line of "I don't like this Trump policy" or "I don't care for Trump's rhetoric, but getting the VA Accountability Act passed was an important step in reforming the VA system" it seems more often that not that everything has to be bad about what they don't like.
AlternativeSir1448@reddit
Another pathetic fatty who values his guns over human lives.
Agitated_Concern_685@reddit
I don't really care about your rights. Honestly, I don't even want to share my country with 2A peeps
Abolish the second amendment
jetsetterga@reddit
Only thing standing between you and a Venezuelan type USA are the 2A peeps.
RubeRick2A@reddit
If only we could like, I dunno, make a law that killing people is bad and shouldn’t happen. No, you think we should ignore that one completely. Let’s make other laws to violate the rights of others that surely (without enforcement and in areas where even theft isn’t punished) will solve it this time! Surely!
kuavi@reddit
"I know this might come across as "preaching to the choir, but it needs to be said."
So say it in a non gun-friendly echo chamber then. Posting this here doesn't do anything for the culture war.
sSnowblind@reddit
lol downvoted for the actual truth. OP won't post this elsewhere because all his hot takes are unpopular.
Slicelker@reddit
Also because he doesn't know how to communicate with people outside of his bubble.
imbatatos@reddit
Problem is not with someone owning half a military stockpile in your backyard. No issues with that
Problem is how easy it is to obtain.
Personal_Ad_6978@reddit
MUH GUNS!!!
WaterWurkz@reddit
I want to know why prisons, jails, airports, courts etc have better protection than our children. Gimme a good reason.
MxthKvlt@reddit
Tragically enough. 95% of all mass killing events happen in “gun free zones” to someone who wants to commit such an act that sign practically states “fish in a barrel”. When we look at this signs have never helped anyone. Gun free zones have never prevented a shooting. What we need is armed guards posted in every “gun free zone” to protect the lives of those who are not able to protect themselves in such an event. You want to see school shootings hit a virtual 0. Use tax payer dollars to sit 3 highly trained guards with a rifle and a handgun to perform patrols. That will eliminate 99% of all school shootings. Criminals are cowards, this is why they don’t go shoot up shooting ranges, gun stores, pawn shops, and very rarely ever in areas where CCLs are highly present. Put more good guys with guns in the work force and watch the bad guys with guns not be able to find vulnerable victims.
-goneballistic-@reddit
Great post. Totally agree
average_texas_guy@reddit
When this happens I always ask the anti gun crowd which of their rights, excluding the second amendment because they already don't care about that one, are they willing to give up to make people feel safer. Notice I said feel safer because that's what gun control is, a way to make people feel safer while not actually making them safer. Surprisingly, none of them ever want to answer the question.
I would even argue that, in the wrong hands, the 1st amendment is more of a threat to society than the 2nd.
Last_Entertainment86@reddit
Project Exile and Arming Teachers will do far more than the empty platitudes of anti-gunners used for every pow wow drum session. I'm a teacher by trade and I don't mind if I have to carry a gun to protect my students.
chip7890@reddit
I'd be very curious to know if most teachers agree with your sentiment
Bradadonasaurus@reddit
This is the kind of government program I'd be happy to fund.
bl00m00n09@reddit
I'm 100% against gun control, but we need to be honest there hasn't been an effective solution.
Free Mental Health? No. Turn schools into Prison style systems? No - defund schools or reduce budget. Arming teacher? It's being tested, but there's no results. Most teachers don't want to participate. The other argument is that it just gives kids potential access to a gun from an inexperienced gun owner.
Obviously red-flag or restrictions don't matter, potential shooter could just steal it from a friend or family member.
We need some better solutions or both parties need to reverse course on Mental Health/School Budget.
This kid was 14 years old, spent most of his social development years in covid. He just started HS and he spazs out. These kids have grown up and are conditioned/primed for gun violence. School year just started and sadly I don't think it'll be the last event for the year.
Some points to think about and consider.
tedtomlin@reddit
What are the solutions in bullet two?
shooter505@reddit
It seems most anti-2nd Amendment folks believe all firearm owners are murderers...they just haven't "done the deed" yet. Therefore, they need to have their firearms confiscated before they do.
Anti-second amendment folks encourage passing more laws that restrict the Second Amendment's freedom. They make the emotional argument that all of these laws are "worth it, even if it saves just one life."
If that logic holds, then how many lives lost are tolerable to the anti-gun crowd before they stop trying to pass more and more restrictive laws to "save just one life"?
Will they stop when only 20,000 people nationwide are killed in a year with guns?
5,000?
Would they pass more laws if even one life is taken by someone with a gun?
To me, it seems as if we are experiencing "incremental confiscation." Here's the cycle...
People get killed with guns.
The public rise up, "We need more gun control to prevent people from killing with guns!"
Laws get passed that dictate more gun control, e.g., universal background checks, but people will still be killed.
No private sales without an FFL performing the transfer, but people will still be killed.
OK, so gas-operated firearms are banned, but people still get killed.
High-capacity magazines are banned, but people are still killed. Folding stocks are banned, protruding pistol grips on rifles are banned, bayonet lugs are banned, flash suppressors are banned, threaded barrels are banned, on and on and on.
Then, people still get killed with guns.
The public rise up again, "We need more gun control...what we did before wasn't enough!"
And so on...
Eventually, when people are still getting killed with guns, the politicians will throw up their hands and claim, "Well dang...we've tried everything to control guns, and people are still getting killed! The only course of action we haven't taken is confiscation! We need to confiscate every gun from every home in the United States. Only then will we have no one being killed with them!"
And we all know how that would go.
TanAndTallLady@reddit
Damn, I came here expecting a reasonable pro-gun response to this. But this isn't it fam. You voiced no empathy for this tragedy, which I thought we all knew was the natural first response and THEN defending your rights. This is a bad post and doesn't convince this pro-control user unfortunately.
RubeRick2A@reddit
You missed points 1,2,&4?
TanAndTallLady@reddit
Nope, I read them. In no way do those points read as "empathy". They read as cold defensiveness.
RubeRick2A@reddit
Disagree, and your posts are filled with lack of empathy and filled with a hateful rage. It’s blinding you. That’s cold
TanAndTallLady@reddit
Hmm, you're being hyperbolic. I have some snark, that's not the same as hateful rage. You're just pushing me away from your POV, like far away, because you seem totally unreasonable (and a bit unhinged tbh). Best of luck to you
Peacemkr45@reddit
This isn't the time for empathy. The gun control group is already marching out talking heads demanding we give up our rights. How many iterations do we have to play Charlie brown to Lucy's holding the football before we stop playing their game and losing more and more of our Right of self defense? Give me a concrete number that's acceptable. How many times?
TanAndTallLady@reddit
This... Is wild. Idk, you're reaction here makes me think this pro-gun group is TFG (too far gone). I'm not trying to argue, but giving you the feedback... Your POV is not relatable to the average non-gun-enthusiast American
Raphy000@reddit
Gun control has never been about guns or safety - it is ALWAYS about controlling people
SirGirthfrmDickshire@reddit
And it's not just guns too... I remember a while back reading about New York trying to make buying a 3d printer require a background check.... Yeah sure people make guns with them but the amount of people that actually do that is so incredibly small, and in the time it takes to print 1 grip/ body for a parts kit you can go to hardware stores and buy enough hardware to make a fuck ton of pipe bombs... Or even just buy a gun off the street.
NPDogs21@reddit
What solutions are those? I’m pro-gun but man it’s exhausting how I know nothing will change at all
alkatori@reddit
IMO the only reasonable solutions would be a major investment in public healthcare and screening folks for mental illness with the intent to treat early.
That's not a popular take around these parts though.
MoltenMirrors@reddit
Yeah, based on the responses I think a lot of pro-2A people, while they might be upset about school shootings like any decent person, deep down don't feel any urgency to work towards a solution because they believe it would never happen to them and theirs.
And a healthy distrust of government means that while they might readily use "we need better mental health care" to deflect arguments for gun control, most would never actually vote for a tax increase to pay for it.
I wish more of us would make that connection.
InevitableTheOne@reddit
I don't think this take is very fair, we absolutely do feel a sense of urgency with dealing with these school shootings. The issue is the anti-2A crowd either dismiss the ideas of the pro-2A crowd, or simply ignores them. And this simply becomes the deadlock we know today. Neither side wants to compromise and take real steps to fix these issues while keeping our 2A rights intact.
alkatori@reddit
You are correct the gun control side has just as much blame, they are completely opposed to trying anything *except* putting limits on guns.
However, the Democratic Party platform does get closer than the Republican Party when it comes to investment in public health. Even though they will absolutely go with a corporate strategy, and probably water it all down to hell.
alkatori@reddit
I'm very pro-2A. I'm repeal the Hughes Amendment Pro-2A.
But we have an issue.
I don't think it's all mental health. But I think health screening would help. We have a mix of desperation and radicalization driving these shootings.
You have "suicide shooters" which may or may not be political motivated and likely want infamy.
Then you have political shooters. These are the ones who we see in Norway, France and New Zealand. They are trying to rip apart society - nothing gains more attention than indiscriminate murder.
InevitableTheOne@reddit
I don't think you said anything in this comment that most here wouldn't agree with or at least not be immediately dismissive. However, its the stuff many of these politicians want to sneak in, or when you start talking about infringing on rights that many would have an issue with.
the_spacecowboy555@reddit
Solutions are out there but in my opinion, people fail to understand times have changed and so do the conditions and methods you have to employ to counteract problems. 60s, 70s, 80....could you can buy a gun out of a catalog and have it mailed to your house? you could own a full auto. How is it there were not this many school shootings back then, if there were any, but now we have more restrictions on how to obtain firearms, you cannot own full autos (unless Tax Stamped and Pre 1986), and we get this.....but it's gotta be the gun, right? Ban AR-15s and all it will take is a kid to 3D print one and then what? Ban 3D printers? Why if the kid decided to due explosives?
Society has lost the disciplinary action that adults have over kids. I lied and the coach smacked me across the head. My parents said nothing. Now if you did that today, parents are ready to sue which in some cases empowers the kids more that "my parents will take care of it".
Hopefully, they question the kid more on WHY he did it and what lead up to the decision on this shooting, why he didn't feel to maybe talk to an adult, and use that information to prevent future. However, I think politicians will just want to Ban AR-15s because that will get them votes.
DANOM1GHT@reddit
"Maybe if we beat our kids more the shootings will stop."
JBCTech7@reddit
You give up on trying to convince pro-lifers that baby murder is ok?
CH-67@reddit
Armed protection for schools is a big one. And their reluctance to tackle mental health issues. Asylums need to make a return in some fashion.
NPDogs21@reddit
How many armed officers should patrol each school?
Who are the ones blocking funding for mental health too?
I’d be open to some sort of long-term mental institution
chumley84@reddit
Simply allowing teachers to carry would do alot some states already do
InevitableTheOne@reddit
I can see why people would advocate for this, and it could definitely be an option if the teacher accepts the responsibility. However, I don't think its fair to expect teachers to shoot it out with a potential mass murderer. This conversation should be more about hardening school entrances and providing more SROs, who actually have taken an oath to uphold the law and are willing to put themselves in harms way to do so.
chumley84@reddit
I'm not expecting that they'd be required to just given the option
InevitableTheOne@reddit
Gotcha, just felt the need to add that bit in because many people make this argument without even bringing the thoughts of teachers into it and kind of makes it feel like more of a requirement for a teacher than an option.
CH-67@reddit
Kinda a dumb question when there’s schools with 5 thousand students and others with 400. I guess however many it takes to secure the school in question. Meaning someone at every entrance during the start of the day. Then in theory that number could be reduced to a smaller number that is capable of responding to an issue anywhere around the school.
I’m not very knowledgeable of any recent or ongoing legislation or campaigns regarding mental health. That said, we closed all of our institutions in the past because of leftist complaints about involuntary commitment and instances of psychos committing atrocities has skyrocketed since then.
Rich-Promise-79@reddit
Asylums have nothing to do with this, and would have absolutely no involvement with people like this at any stage of their existence. Not before any events nor after. So yeah, kind of a dumb statement to make.
MoltenMirrors@reddit
There's plenty of blame to go around for deinstitutionalization. As governor, Reagan signed California's bill in the 1960s that served as a template for other states. The Democrats then passed Federal block grants for community based care to replace institutions in 1980. As president, Reagan led its repeal in 1981, resulting in almost no Federal funding for mental health programs which continues today.
CH-67@reddit
As we are in a firearms sub, Reagan isn’t exactly well liked here already.
guru700@reddit
I will give you two big ones. 1] Most boys view an enormous amount of violence in movies and video games before they even get to high school. This desensitizes them to violence 2] SSRI drugs are the big elephant in the room. There is a causality between the introduction of these drugs in the early 90’s that correlates to the increase in school shootings. The vast majority of shooters are on these drugs or have been on them. Don’t expect anything to be done because Big Pharma throws massive money to the media and both political parties.
Access to firearms is only half the equation, we need to address the intent and what creates these mass killers.
_wastelandmedic@reddit
https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/apalachee-high-school-shooting-georgia-09-04-24#h_2b9234957810f668ee5b68f74f3deeeb
What about when law enforcement and the school are aware of the shooting threat? Then who do we blame? Law abiding gun owners in the entire country, or those who we employ to prevent these types of things? Is it not suspicious how often they are on the radar of law enforcement, including the FBI, and yet it still happens?
the_spacecowboy555@reddit
Hmmm. I’m more sick of reading how there are warnings but no one takes action.
_wastelandmedic@reddit
It's very, very suspicious. I'll leave it at that, as to not sound too crazy.
LOL_YOUMAD@reddit
Outside of the mental health stuff where you got many answers, what my high school did was have a great security perimeter. There were 2 entrance and exit roads to the school so those were watched on cameras, there were also 360 degree of cameras around the property and we had several monitors at our school, if someone was pulling up to the property any time but start or end of day a monitor would go meet that person at their vehicle or walking if they walked on. They were great about this like if you had an appointment and got there an hour late you’d have one at your car when you parked and got out.
They also had doors that locked when classes were going on, unlocked between them so people could get to classes. If you came in late you had to go by the office which they buzzed you in and then after seeing what you had going on they buzzed you in through another door. We had 2 armed police officers that worked at the school as well. You weren’t getting on the campus without getting a monitor to check you, getting in the building without going through the office, and if you somehow still made it there were armed officers there. Of course you could go a step farther and have metal detectors and stuff even if needed. Yeah this all cost money but it works pretty well
WingedBobcat@reddit
I'd like to see mental health be de-stigmatized. Our public schools are crumbling and so it would be good to have competent guidance counselors that could spot and react to the red flags. I'd also go so far as to call for single payer healthcare that includes mental health treatment, but politicians that are both pro-gun and pro-universal healthcare are few and far between.
Allowing lawful gun owners and/or teachers to carry concealed in schools would also act as a deterrent. "Gun Free Zones" are seen as a "soft target" since law abiding citizens are often not allowed to carry guns. I'm not sure on the laws in Georgia specifically but in most of the country this holds true.
I'd really like to understand the why behind school shootings. You hate to see stories like this. "Weapons of War" have been in the hands of American citizens since before the country was a country. AR-15's have been owned by civilians since the 1950's. School shootings weren't really an issue until Columbine in the 90's. Access to guns didn't change, what did? Why do people want to mass murder each other?
Bubbabeast91@reddit
Armed officers in schools for one. My high school had 2-3 armed police officers in it at all times where there were students present. The police station was basically next door, and their response time during an incident where a kid brought a gun to school one time was within a couple minutes at most.
Not only did they haul ass up the campus, but the officers who were ALREADY IN THE BUILDING managed to trap the kid in a stairwell, get the kids in the immediate area outta there FAST, and evacuated the whole school pretty darn fast too. Sent us all home early, and we heard the rest in the coming days.
Luckily, no one was harmed. Kid got arrested and pulled out, had (if memory serves) a rifle and a knife, and maybe something else. What I heard was that his gf broke up with him, and he didn't have clear intentions on anything, but he certainly had the opportunity to try something. I'd say it ended with a best case scenario, but the worst case scenario is that if he had started shooting, 3 armed police officers would have been sprinting down the hallway instantly towards the sound of gunfire. You really can't ask for a better response than that.
cuco33@reddit
You can be pro gun and pro gun control, regardlessof people think that is impossible. You can also want mental health access to all which would help (but not eliminate) prevent these shootings. It's sad because thoughts and prayers literally do nothing.
smauseth@reddit
If you look at countries that implemented gun control, they gave up their guns then they gave up basic freedoms like the ability to criticize their governments on Facebook. I am not giving up my guns.
C-ute-Thulu@reddit
I just wish the pro-gun side had any solutions besides doing nothing or more guns.
The talking point for a little bit was, "We don't need gun control, we need more mental health services." That sounds like a great start! But nothing followed up that talking point
LynnDickeysKnees@reddit
I'm not required to come up with solutions. No one would listen if I did.
C-ute-Thulu@reddit
You get to bitch but have absolutely no responsibility. Best of both worlds. My hat's off to you, clever sir
LynnDickeysKnees@reddit
Yes. 🤣
Almost-Jaded@reddit
For almost 100 years, you could order a fully automatic machinegun in the mail without a background check. No school shootings.
Up until a few decades ago, and within memory of anyone over 40-50 years old (depending on area), it was perfectly normal to bring guns to school. In the back of the truck, and sometimes in your locker. Highschools had rifle clubs. No school shootings.
It isn't the guns.
C-ute-Thulu@reddit
OK. Then let's try something besides taking away/giving away guns. Literally anything
Almost-Jaded@reddit
Awesome! Now that we agree that guns, inanimate objects that they are, aren't the problem - and by extension, that punishing the ~110 million legal gun owners that aren't commitment these crimes is a dick move and a massive constitutional violation, let's look at the real problems.
1 - fix the mental health crisis. Almost 60% of all gun deaths in the US are suicides. Mass shootings make headlines, but if you actually want to address total gun deaths - this is where you go first. Guess what..? You'll address the vast majority of mass shootings at the same time. And shoving pills down kid's throats isn't a fix - on fact, it's probably contributing to the school shootings. Mass casualty events among minors and psychotropic medications for minors timelines are almost a mirror image.
2 - end the war on drugs. This is the single biggest failure in US government history. It has never put a dent in the drug trade. It HAS, however, enriched and empowered the most violent organizations on two continents. Gang and cartel violence has skyrocketed under this policy. Remove police shootings self defense, and suicides - drug related violence accounts for over 80% of gun violence in the country. And that wasn't the case before 1972.
3 - you aren't gonna like this one. Eliminate defenseless victim zones. 80% of actual mass shootings involve somebody ignoring those useless signs and going after people they KNOW can't defend themselves. The only thing dumber than gun free zones, are flat earthers. It's on that level.
There are more steps, but with those two we just reduced total gun deaths by 75%. The rest are even tougher issues, to do with poverty and education, family dynamics, and social media. But mental health and the war on drugs just dropped it massively.
Eliminating defenseless victim zones means more of these situations end with one or two dead instead of more. Eventually, mass shootings will lose their luster to the best people, when they know they're gonna die before they get very far. Do you know who Eli Dicken is? Do you know what he did, when and where? No? Probably because there was only one fatality, and that was the guy that tried to shoot up a mall. Eli was there. A well practiced concealed carrier. Transfer the Clackamas Mall shooting? No? Huh. The shooter tab away and unalived themselves before racking up a body count after being confronted by a concealed carrier.
So there's a good start. 66-75% reduction in gun violence without messing with anyone's rights.
C-ute-Thulu@reddit
I could get on board with the first 2. I think most Americans would. I'm pretty the lefties would love it. Let's start with the things most Americans would agree on
ByornJaeger@reddit
Why are you not on board with arguably the most effective solution?
C-ute-Thulu@reddit
Bc most Americans wouldn't go for that. I'm going for realistic options
Almost-Jaded@reddit
Agreed. I've never met a gun person that doesn't want to address gun crime. The lefties pretend we don't care. We're probably more adamant about it than they are - they just get mad that we want to address the ACTUAL problems.
C-ute-Thulu@reddit
Then when are the gun people going to actually address it? Bc I haven't seen it yet.
ricochet845@reddit
The problem I have seen with that is, well a few of them, starting with:
People will bitch the government is delving into our personal lives too much, let alone specifically medical info (violation of hippa laws.) this alone will have people avoiding shrinks like the plague since those fuckers think everyone is a lunatic (yeah I’ve seen it first hand…or second hand, I dunno, my friend went to a shrink for something normal shrink decided to pull some sketch shit and get him comitted on some shit he never said or did or anything.)
People will see it as an infringement/violation upon our rights to privacy (as mentioned above) to enjoy another right.
From that above ^ there will be constitutional challenges based upon a “give up your 4th ammendment to enjoy your second” kind of thing because of the invasion of privacy(can be seen by some as a precursory search of a persons history). Similar in a way to the (now deemed unconstitutional) poll tax. However, until that gets SCOTUS judgement there will be people undoubtedly in jail/prison on what will end up being deemed unconstitutional charges, so what happens with them? Do you trust the govt to immediately release them and drop charges?! Lmfao yeah I’ve read about civilizations coming into existance that were faster than that’ll be.
Imo, that mental health thing while it could have been good if done properly (big if), it lost a lot of favor when normal people were getting red flagged by spiteful or vengeful spouses or ex spouse/bf/gf’s. Additionally when it came to light that a good number of the mass shooters at the time were already on heavy antipsychotic meds it kinda proved another point we as pro 2a people like to make is that, crazy will find a way. Gun, car, bomb, knife(or other slicing or pokey bit). Hell look at I believe it was the sandy hook kid, BIG time psych meds, IIRC he killed his mother who (again iirc) was a cop, stole her guns and went to that school. So he commits murder, and theft all before going to the school, to commit more murder.
Then even IF, you were able to get a mental health stuff done right and legally and make it damn hard to just willy nilly red flag someone, there’s always the potential with govt legislation to say “oh you think ‘this way’ or ‘that way’ that’s now classified as a mental disorder…. We’ll be taking your guns now as you’ve just been declared a danger to yourself or others by the stroke of a pen and a raising of hands perse, contrary to your entire existance up to this point.” That will put us right back to where we are now, where it is teetering predominantly on left and right party lines…. One sees private citizen ownership as a massive liability and are authoritarian, while the other side claims to be the opposite (lol not always the case) and the 2 sides will fight eachother for eternity.
Truth is, when we used to keep the crazies and criminals locked up so they can’t hurt people, we never really had these situations…. I mean yeah sure there were a few here or there, but most of those were psyops by govt agents (one way or another, reference mk ultra shit) but to the degree that we experience them now? No way.
C-ute-Thulu@reddit
I've worked in community mental health for 25+ yrs and at least in my state, it's EXTREMELY difficult involuntarily hospitalize someone.
Is your "friend" who went to the shrink who thought he was a lunatic actually you?
ricochet845@reddit
In my state to get someone committed is the 3pc rule at the very least.
Absolutely fucking not me…. He got a fishy feeling about his shrink and sold me all but like 2 of his guns (2 that he didn’t were handguns I did not have a permit for at the time). I still have them. And he’s still fighting to get his record cleared to legally own them again and this is AFTER it was proven his shrink lied (ended up losing his license and fined, in a plea deal to not face prison time). The govt said his record was cleared like 3 years ago, he went to buy a pump action shotgun and got denied, so yeah I have my doubts the state (federal or actual states) will move quickly to clear up records or processes of release people who are jammed up on shit that would be (in my above example) deemed unconstitutional. Now I know my friend is and was technically cleared of any and all bull shit “mental health issues” however I legally cannot sell him his guns back cause then I get jammed up. He knows that, he knows I have them and will only sell them back to him. He also has a lawyer getting the process going further and faster.
Your automatic accusation of saying it is really me is another reason why normal people like us despise the whole mental health bull shit requirements. And you have proven my point about why no one would really go for that, shrinks lie, and exaggerate truths and don’t want any liability in saying someone’s a danger when they’re not. Is this me being defensive? Not at all, this is me proving the point that a lot of normal people believe imo.
Saracat2012@reddit
How about we start protecting our children the same way we do our politicians, judges, and money? Armed security. If cost is a concern, allow school district employees, who are willing and able, to concealed carry on the job. Obviously, serious rules need to be laid down by the district (deep concealment holsters only, confidential lists of teachers, mandatory training hours with local leos, etc.), but just the possibility that there is an unknown armed presence around could deter some of these psychopaths. Letting them know they will face zero armed opposition (or minimal marked opposition) certainly hasn’t worked yet. And we all know what Einstein said about doing the same thing and expecting a different result.
C-ute-Thulu@reddit
So more guns then? If more guns was the answer, this would be rare and not routine
And Einstein didn't really say that.
Saracat2012@reddit
Not more guns, necessarily, but a different distribution. There is a reason gun free zones are targeted and there’s a reason you call people with guns to respond. Areas that actively promote gun ownership and armed citizenry have lower crime rates than those that actively discourage guns.
And who cares if Einstein really said it? It’s commonly attributed to him, so it’s still valid, as evidenced by the fact that you understood the point I was making.
DirtyDiesel71@reddit
Glad this one was apprehended while still living and can be interrogated this time. Maybe we can get some insight on the why.
BackInThaDayz@reddit
You didn’t watch them get killed. You read about it.
Please list the solutions….
Correct not all AR owners are crazy but a there’s enough that are who own them that should’ve never been allowed to. Hell the Republican shooter who shot at Trump used a AR 🤦🏽♂️😂
If you lose a family member ESPECIALLY a child to gun violence your voice is louder 🤦🏽♂️ they literally know how it feels to lose someone when they should’ve never had to 🤦🏽♂️
“We shouldn’t have to trust you guys” you and your kind have been paranoid about “the government taking away my guns” for over hundreds of years and yet it’s the easiest time to buy one. Some style of guns should be either banned or you must have to complete training to own. Funny thing that your closet full of guns can’t stop that one small drone from taking you and your whole gang out in a second 🤦🏽♂️😂
You can’t say shit like you just did because maybe you’re a responsible gun owner but there’s millions who aren’t. You want to say that the families or politicians are “collecting you all together” you literally did to them what you claim they don’t you 🤦🏽♂️ The “bodies aren’t even cold yet” and you just posted a whole book about you and your feelings. Showing how upset you are 🤦🏽♂️😂
I own guns. I’m from Texas. I love my guns but I believe that these walking methheads shouldn’t be able to collect enough cans to go to the nearest pawn shop to buy a gun because of their drug fueled paranoia. I also don’t think a woman abuser should be able to own one either.
I hate having car insurance, I haven’t caused a wreck in my 40 years but I also understand there’s stupid idiots out there that drive like morons.
dirtysock47@reddit (OP)
It'll also take out the whole block, killing the innocent neighbors in the process.
The government isn't going to glass entire neighborhoods.
State_L3ss@reddit
Are you sure about that?
BackInThaDayz@reddit
Now you care about innocent ppl?…….
Bradadonasaurus@reddit
The fuck are you talking about? A DV charge is an immediate no go for a gun purchase.
BackInThaDayz@reddit
You can get those over turned if you have the cash for a lawyer 🤦🏽♂️
MArkansas-254@reddit
Well stated. If you haven’t tried the offered solutions from the gun community, don’t expect the gun community to be interested in your solution of taking them away from law abiding citizens.
DAB0502@reddit
We need free mental health not gun control. It also wouldn't kill them to put bullet proofing in schools. They put it in banks to protect money.
listenstowhales@reddit
People don’t want to pay for single payer healthcare though
macncheesepro24@reddit
You know the anti gun pea brains will come check out this sub. They always do. It’s just odd that they want to take everyone’s guns and that will not do any damn thing. They always pedal “we don’t want to take all your guns” and people like Hogg and Biden are for shotguns (Biden gladly gives advice on that 😂)…I’m glad nobody has used a shotgun in one of these incidents. That would be way worse. The idea isn’t a solution, it’s just to take everyone’s guns and like Hillary said “never let a good tragedy go to waste”
Moms demand action always boo voting sessions where funding for SROs pass. Less school shootings means less money for them. Bring up mental health and they take the lazy way out by saying it’s a republican talking point. They don’t want a solution and don’t care about children. They play on the ignorant by using the dead or injured children as pawns. No political group or politician will ever care about you, they care about money. Thats it.
GodofWar1234@reddit
This shit always pisses me off. They say this and then follow up with “….but nobody needs a gun!”, which inevitably leads to them wanting to either put stupidly heavy restrictions on guns or just outright ban them. I’d honestly respect them just a tiny bit more if they flat out said “we hate your right to bear arms and want to disarm you” because at least then I’m not being gaslit.
Put_It_All_On_Eclk@reddit
The Aurora shooter used an 870 in addition to an AR15 with a 100 round mag that would malfunction, to the surprise of no one.
Billybob_Bojangles2@reddit
Didn't once of the Columbine fucks use a shotgun?
benmarvin@reddit
Two actually. And a tec-9 and hi-point carbine.
thegrumpymechanic@reddit
And that only because their homemade bombs didn't work.
Billybob_Bojangles2@reddit
Good thing the assault weapon can was in place. That way they didn't use the scary gun to murder people, think how scared they would have been while they died. /s
Morbins@reddit
Ban all cars. 😏
Drugs are banned. People still get them 😏😏
Alcohol was banned. Look how thst went 😏😏😏😏😏😏😏😏😏😏
United-Advertising67@reddit
Liberal utopia: You live defenseless in an unlocked pod with no privacy rights, no speech rights, and no property rights, but you can smoke all the weed you want and put anything in your butt that you feel like.
Morbins@reddit
Hell yeah theythemerfuckers 😎
Other_Movie_5384@reddit
Well obviously the government did not use enough violence to subjugate its populace.
Aeropro@reddit
The reason for failure is always that they never went far enough.
SeveN62Armed@reddit
“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.“
If they don’t like it, they can amend the fucking constitution. Until then, stay up out of my shit.
n00py@reddit
I’m pro-gun also - but in many ways it is the price we pay for freedom.
Just like countless innocent people being killed in car accidents is the price we pay for people being able to enjoy drinking legally.
It seems disingenuous to imply that access isn’t part of what makes this happen, at least in the way it does. Would these psychopaths still kill with other tools? Of course, but we all know that guns are the best tool for killing people - and thus create higher body counts. That’s why we have them - the difference is of course that we only want them for effectively killing evil people and not innocent people.
SomeIdioticDude@reddit
Guns are the best tool for killing a particular person. I wouldn't want to see the results if we forced these kids to get creative.
ScaryLawler@reddit
So brave.
BroKenXXXX@reddit
You can start by refusing to ise their terms. I don't own any AR-15s but I do own semi automatic rifles that have been modified to fit my needs. Very few people own actual AR-15s aka M16. None of my rifles are made by Armalite.
JBCTech7@reddit
not many ar-15s are made by armalite in my experience.
that's just the name of the platform.
BroKenXXXX@reddit
AR= Armalite Rifle
NinjaBuddha13@reddit
The AR-17 would like a word
JBCTech7@reddit
yes i know, but they aren't generally made by armalite.
Mine was made by PSA.
ByornJaeger@reddit
Armalight made the original design, which is why if you want to get extra technical they would all be AR-15 patterned rifles, which includes the M16 and the M4, but AR-15 and M16 are not the same. You’re acquiescing to the left’s framing far more by saying “AR-15 aka M16” than OP is with his usage
BroKenXXXX@reddit
By that logic we should call all American cars Model Ts. Armalite Rifle model 15. When the main stream media uses it AR, it is in an effort to demonize them by lying to the uneducated. To them it means Assault rifle and unless it was used in an assault, it simply isn't true either. They just want them to seem scary to their sheep.
Knurling_Turtle@reddit
Wrong sub, dude.
kaphin1@reddit
Blood on all your fucking hands
Fig1025@reddit
I think society as a whole needs to stop catering to the gun rights activists. Yes, we understand that losing your guns will make you upset and angry. No, we don't think it's worse than what parents of dead children feel.
Stop trying to reason with gun activists, just ban the guns and then send "thoughts and prays" as they rage and cry about it.
Lespaul96@reddit
Are you gonna be the one to Come and take them?
Fig1025@reddit
There is no reason to go door to door looking for guns. What needs to be done is global ban on sale of guns, close the gun shops, legal action against any manufacturer that sells to private individuals. When private people flash their guns in public and police is forced to respond, they will have right to take the guns right there and then. You can still keep your gun if you don't threaten people in public or cause trouble with police
2mustange@reddit
I feel like it's a small body of people with loud voices who want gun control. I have spoken with people all around and none have ever said they want to limit gun ownership
cyberkine@reddit
Zero tolerance policies are partly to blame. When a simple fist fight results in everyone being punished, a bullied kid may see no alternative. Kid logic - not adult logic.
BloodyRightToe@reddit
School shooting as the price for our freedom? Are rapes the price for not being castrated?
ByornJaeger@reddit
Have you castrated yourself?
BloodyRightToe@reddit
No. Removing your genitals because others commit rape make a much sense as disarming because criminals commit crime.
ByornJaeger@reddit
I misread your comment. I thought you were arguing the opposite point. I apologize.
Agitated_Concern_685@reddit
I'm in favor of whatever gives us more dead humans. Already too many of us fucks on this rock.
LochdNLoaded@reddit
Well said, fellow citizen! (I don’t know if you are male or female or identify as a frog or a tree). Our Rights in the Bill of Rights are non-negotiable. SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED means just that.
2PacAn@reddit
Gun control supporters look at mass shootings with glee because it gives them a talking point. They don’t care about kids one single bit beyond using their deaths to take away rights.
PropitiousNog@reddit
School shootings do seem to be predominately a US problem. Kids get bullied in school all over the western world. Kids suffer mental health issues all over the western world.
What is it about the US, that makes it such an issue?
EmptyBrook@reddit
The one thing that sticks out like a sore thumb is the extremely high number of guns in the USA compared to other countries, which is why anti-gun people blame the guns. We have the same mental health issues here, but more weapons floating around. The question is, is it correlation or causation?
PropitiousNog@reddit
I have a foot in both the UK and US, what sticks out more to me is the number of people on medications for apparent mental health issues in the US. Everyone of my friends in the US that I know of, are taking medication for stress, anxiety, ADHD etc. I don't see anything like the same in the UK. I wonder whether the for profit medical industry is perhaps pushing prescription drugs harder.
Doesn't Canada have more guns than the US per head of population?
EmptyBrook@reddit
A quick search gave me 120.5 guns per person in the USA vs 34.7 guns per person in Canada. Medications could play into too though. Perhaps some medications affect decision making, empathy, or emotion regulation
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
Perhaps? They absolutely do. SSRIs ,like Prozac, one of if not the most common anti depressant drug, have terrible psychiatric side effects for some people. They range from sexual dysfunction to rage to worsened depression and suicide. They can change people’s personalities and inhibitions. They are a great tool for many, life saving even, but awful for others.
ButtholePatrol_@reddit
Says every weirdo uncle no one wants at family gatherings and is eventually arrested to no one’s surprise because he really loved children.
2PacAn@reddit
Everything you’ve posted today is a critique of the right to bear arms and those of us that support that right. You’ve shown zero sympathy to children. You couldn’t do a better job of proving my point if you tried.
ButtholePatrol_@reddit
Thoughts and prayers? Have you read OPs post? It boils down to fuck dead kids but especially fuck you if your kid is dead. Lol.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
Don’t even act like progun people don’t do the same. Look where we are. OP posted an unprompted pro gun message that includes telling anti gun people to “fuck off”. Pot, meet kettle.
Nickpeeps6@reddit
The politicians pushing and demanding gun control like this literally refuse any other form of security or solutions to keeping weapons off campuses and keeping these shootings from happening. They say the only solution to stop the kids from dying at school is to ban firearms. That’s how you know they don’t care.
InternetExploder87@reddit
Thought experiment. We ban all guns.They disappear. poof, gone, don't question it.
But now, someone gets killed in a home invasion. If that person had a firearm, and simply brandished it, not even firing it, it could have saved their life. But in this world they don't, so theyre dead.
Why is their life less valuable than someone who got shot? Because you've essentially said "sorry, I value the lives of these people, more than everyone else's right to protect themselves"
ByornJaeger@reddit
On top of this is the fact that more lives are saved through defensive firearm use that are lost to firearms (including suicides) is some how now an acceptable answer to “if it saves one life”
MaddGerman@reddit
When people ask me "How many children have to die before you agree with gun control". You can't stack the bodies high enough for me to give up my rights. Our rights by definition can not be limited by our government. Really.
BanAvoidanceIsACrime@reddit
Yes, you do, that is the only possible conclusion to draw, and no amount of worthless things you suggest will change that. If they weren't just token suggestions, the Republicans and the pro-gun lobby would have already written them into law, and we'd see the effects.
A victim of a crime can speak with authority of the impact and pain of that crime, so it does, in fact, give more legitimacy.
True, because less mass shootings is not something you are after
Simple-Scarcity-6730@reddit
They should investigate what causes young children and adults to commit such horrible acts and deal with that instead of just reclassifying what they deem is an "assault weapon" so they can ban it.
Vaanilla@reddit
I mean… speak for yourself. If there were a set of equitable circumstances for returning my guns, I’d give them up if it meant having the whole country to be without them.
Heck, when Sandy Hook happened I actively started looking for a program that would allow me to give them back and get paid what they are worth.
So if some company wants mine to destroy, contact me.
dirtysock47@reddit (OP)
The problem, is that no such country exists.
Even if you could get every criminal to give up theirs, the government will still have their guns, and I don't want to live in a world where only the government has guns.
JBCTech7@reddit
you're...kinda pathetic.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
So to your point of claiming anyone that survives a mass shooting etc doesn’t have a more valid opinion on guns.
Why does owning a gun make your opinion anymore valid and give you the moral high ground to tell these people to fuck off?
That might be the single most tone deaf response to a mass shooting of children that I have ever seen. And I’ve been hanging around this sub for years.
dirtysock47@reddit (OP)
Because they are advocating for laws that will turn me and people like me into felons overnight.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
Uh huh. And what law would that be. What serious federal gun bill has been pushed that would require immediate surrender or destruction of your guns under penalty of immediate felony charges?
Since you feel that way, do you see how so many women in this country feel so attacked when men try to trample their reproductive rights and bodily autonomy?
dirtysock47@reddit (OP)
Kamala Harris has supported "mandatory buybacks", aka confiscation.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
“Supported” is not the imminent threat you are describing. That’s quite a stretch. Many high profile Republicans “support” terrible things that aren’t really at risk of becoming law either.
And are you seriously trying to say that safe storage laws are a bad idea? How do you think half of these underage shooters get the guns?
Are you admitting that you won’t or don’t safely store your guns?
dirtysock47@reddit (OP)
Cool, so can I use this line every time someone brings up Project 2025?
Yes, not to mention unconstitutional.
Their idea of "safely storing your guns" is to make them into glorified paperweights, that are useless for self defense.
So yeah, I guess I don't "safely store my guns".
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
Alright. So you aren’t actually interested at all in any sort of reasonable discussion. Life is about compromise.
Telling people to fuck off and stonewalling even the most reasonable solutions like “lock up your fucking gun so kids can’t get to them” is not how you get your way. If anything, anti gun folks will just look at you and be like “see, we tried to reason and find some middle ground with them and they just act like jerks”
dirtysock47@reddit (OP)
And that's where point #5 comes in. We have no reason to trust any "compromise" that is made, because the gun control side immediately reneges on it whenever the next shooting happens.
I don't have kids
Their idea of "middle ground" isn't true middle ground.
Banning certain classes of arms, and mandating how peaceable citizens store their property, are both non starters, not to mention unconstitutional.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
That’s where we as gun owners need to lead the conversation. I agree that banning guns by type would have no useful purpose.
But locking guns up so kids or any other unauthorized person can’t get their hands on any of my guns not personally in my direct control is an easy win for us. There is no useful argument against it. It’s an easy win for us to drive the conversation to that compromise. Do that and see if it makes a difference and when it does, you can then say we made a compromise and it worked.
It doesn’t have to be the anti gun people always leading the conversation, we just have to be willing to bring something to the table. Showing up and saying “fuck off” does nothing but give the other side traction.
Your arguments are just as bad faith as theirs
Technical_One181@reddit
You keep talking about compromise, you do realize compromise has lead us to this current climate on guns and assault weapon bans being talked about everytime right?
How would you even police a rule to lock every gun up? Hell every gun/nfa item in my house isnt in a safe, nor should they. I don't think someone breaking into my home will stop and give me a minute to input my pin/spin the dial on a safe before proceeding to do whatever they were going to do.
You raise kids right and they wont fuck around. My dad had 2 handguns in safes but the shotguns and rifles (with ammo out) were in closets accessible to me from when I was 10 till I moved out. Never once did I go play with them or speak on them.
Smokey_tha_bear9000@reddit
All you can think is in binary. What if I told you that most folks in liberalgunowners are against nearly all the same things you are as far as gun laws go.? Just because I don’t like other shit the right does, doesn’t mean I support the lefts many stupid gun ideas. You won’t believe me but that’s your problem, not mine, but just know that insulting people won’t get you far in life.
I raise my kids right but I still lock my guns up because I’m not stupid, and kids do really dumb shit sometimes.
How would police enforce storage laws? I donno how about throw the book at people who let their unlocked guns fall into the wrong hands? Seems pretty straightforward to me. We can’t prevent crimes that haven’t happened for the most part but we can punish those that break laws. That’s kind of the point of most laws.
It’s wild that you openly admit to not securing NFA items but you do you I guess. Just gives the anti gun people more fodder to make gun owners look like fucking idiots. You bring it upon yourself.
Technical_One181@reddit
Except yall aren't really against the same laws since yall keep voting for the party that constantly has candidates that call for assault weapon bans.
Me not having a suppressor (and the SBR its on) in a safe defeats the purpose of a home defense gun. This doesn't give any more fodder to anti gunners cause they already are 1) against me having the gun its on since its an assault weapon & 2) are unaware of the BS I had to go through for both items. For making making "us" look like idiots I could care less cause any antigunner is already ignorant to the laws.
dirtysock47@reddit (OP)
I am pro safe storage (not the insane anti-gun definition of "safe storage", aka keeping guns unloaded and the ammo in a separate safe), I just do not believe it should be mandated by law, especially a law that would have random checks by police to "ensure compliance"
It's already been found unconstitutional
Potential-Coyote@reddit
The same way the [INSERT NEWSPAPER] has way more validity in fighting against laws attacking freedom of the press than [INSERT POLITICIAN] has after being libeled in a published article. One entity is defending a natural right protected by the constitution. The other is attacking the rights of all in response to one illegal act committed by one newspaper.
MooreChelsL8ly@reddit
You are posting this before the bodies are even identified…and not yet cold. This comes across to me as very insensitive. So you can go “fuck off.” Guns don’t kill people. People kill people. Just like in the local swimming pool that gets shut down every summer, it takes one turd to ruin it all for everyone. If we can’t get people to be responsible gun owners, then what else can we do? Either take the guns away or legally fix the problem. Children should not be compromised and left in the crosshairs. And that includes the 14 year old who’s parents absolutely allowed this to happen. His life is now forever damaged and ruined as well. He is a child without a fully developed frontal cortex and should never have had access. Guns are the number one weapon used in America. Not everyone should have that level of access. Let’s fix that. Tougher laws on weapons storage and charge these parents EVERY SINGLE TIME. Background checks. Mandate that every person trying to buy a gun has to take a state run gun safety class. Every gun should come with a trigger lock. We need to think of this like we think of alcohol or drugs. Not old enough? Brain not finished developing? Then who supplied you? Hold EVERYONE responsible. This isn’t a republican or democrat problem, this is all of our problem!
dirtysock47@reddit (OP)
And this is the biggest issue with gun control supporters, you ALWAYS put the onus on law abiding gun owners, and expect us to "do our part"
No, it is not all of our problem, but, because we hate it when the most innocent in society are murdered, many of us provide solutions that don't violate the rights of gun owners.
Gun control supporters reject each and every one, because it doesn't involve banning something. We're not going to become like the UK or Australia, and gun control supporters need to learn to accept that.
MooreChelsL8ly@reddit
If you don’t find children being murdered in schools YOUR problem, THEN YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. All you seem to care about are your guns. No, I don’t have children. Yes, I own a gun. But do I see an issue with gun laws that currently aren’t protect children? Abso-fucking-lutely. The onus isn’t just on law abiding gun owners, it’s on all citizens. Including myself, a gun owner. Making guns safer should be the priority. There is no reason for the general public to own bump stocks, scopes, large magazines, and (imo) ARs as well.
dirtysock47@reddit (OP)
It's not my problem, because me and my guns have never murdered those children.
AIDS_Quilt_69@reddit
Also, I firmly believe that the presence of so many guns in the country was why the response to COVID was mild compared to disarmed New Zealand, Australia, and Canada.
ryguy28896@reddit
Additionally, NOT being the victim of one does not make our position and opinion any less credible than yours.
Angrymilks@reddit
No one asked.
Ok-Communication4190@reddit
Good thing there was a good guy with a gun there to stop that kid from killing anymore kids. Sheesh thoughts and prayers for those families and whatever the fuck we’ve been saying here in America.
I implore everyone to research countries with reasonable gun laws. Just do some quick research outside of that facebook post and whatever bubbles we’ve been in
FatMikey777@reddit
Well written, thank you
Darkling5499@reddit
I just want to know how a 14 year old, who called in the threat ahead of time, managed to get inside a school they didn't go to.
I grew up in a small town, with an even smaller education budget, and we still managed to have all exterior doors locked at 8am with no access granted after that without an escort to the office. And this was 20 years ago.
carlos_marcello@reddit
Absolutely agree with everything you said, carry on and buy as much ammo as you can
_kilogram_@reddit
Nobody is anti-gun, anti-gun nuts just want all the guns concentrated in the hands of the government
The_PunX@reddit
Not a gun problem. It's a mental health problem. Maybe look into that
vulcan1358@reddit
To quote FPC: “Stack up or fuck off”
All those calling for confiscation are not the ones that will be going door to door after law abiding citizens (see: Low Hanging Fruit) as opposed to armed, violent criminals.
Fortis262@reddit
Thank you, dude, for clearly laying out how we all feel. I'm so tired of power-hungry politicians and fearful ignoramuses always making it about guns. I mean, how the hell do you think it's guns when we have 14 yr olds who are so sick and evil that they would want to do this. Our society is corrupt to the core, and you're trying to blame it on something that's been here since the beginning without an issue until now.
whiskey_outpost26@reddit
HEAR, HEAR!
Oxidized_Shackles@reddit
I just looked up the story. How did the firearm make it into school ground? He left at beginning of class and came back with a full sized AR? How??
TheToiletPhilosopher@reddit
This is hilarious. Whatever you have to tell yourself dude. More kids will die. Glad you love your guns so much.
D_Costa85@reddit
Most people I talk to tend to simply be under informed about guns and crime statistics moreso than wanting to strip away peoples rights. It’s our job as 2A supporters to inform them and deliver good arguments as to why their views on this subject are often ill informed. I agree with OP on everything.
ChatriGPT@reddit
I'm curious about the solutions you mentioned in your 2nd point. Can you provide more details?
Potential-Coyote@reddit
Not speaking for OP, but some solutions that have been proposed:
Direct:
Indirect:
Big_Ed214@reddit
We won’t protect our children like we do jewelry in a mall, money in banks or politicians in office. I’ve seen better physical and police protection in hospitals at least here in my area of Texas we have full time on site police school resource officers, locked doors and buzz in only camera feeds for remote operated doors.
therealrrc@reddit
Agree. We dont get to blame guns for a broken society, broken family and broken morals. It’s not the guns fault. It’s never the “guns” fault.
noobprodigy@reddit
What are the solutions you have proposed that gun control people oppose?
sSnowblind@reddit
"It's the libs that want all or nothing" - downvotes any middle ground pro-gun sentiment.
noobprodigy@reddit
I've just never heard these suggestions from the 2A crowd other than arming teachers, which is pretty ridiculous. I'm open to ideas though.
Hot-Win2571@reddit
"We don't know anything yet, but we have to do something!"
ThePenultimateNinja@reddit
Get ready for this statement that invariably gets trotted out after a tragedy:
"People with mental illness are more likely to be the victim of violent crime than the perpetrator"
It seems reasonable on its face, but it is actually extremely dishonest, and deliberately misleading. Anyone who uses it should have their motivations scrutinized.
It is completely irrelevant whether mentally ill people are more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators.
What we actually need to know is whether mentally ill people are more likely to commit violent crimes than people who are not mentally ill.
Also, 'mental illness' is a very broad category. The most common mental illnesses are depression, generalized anxiety disorder, panic disorder, OCD, PTSD, Social anxiety disorder, phobias and eating disorders.
Most of those people probably aren't any more likely to commit violent crimes than anyone else, and it is deceptive to include them under 'mental illness' in this context.
When we talk about 'mental illness' in relation to mass murder, we are not talking about people who have a phobia of spiders, or who have trouble leaving the house because they have anxiety.
MilesVanWinkleForbes@reddit
It's a good letter and a healthy time to express such sentiments. I talked to a Federal agent recently about the left trying really hard to ban guns for Americans on one side of the gun control lobby, while at the same time they are pushing for the illegal immigrants to be allowed to buy guns. He said the Harris Administration wants the aliens armed because they will shoot more people than regular Americans do, thus, allowing for more gun control in the future. They want these shootings. What just happened in Aurora, Colorado, with a clan of Teen de Aguas (a super dangerous criminal gang from Venezuela) being recorded walking around in broad daylight with guns, we can see the Harris Plan is working. All the politicians in Aurora say the gang is peaceful and the guns are legal. The Aurora politicians must be enjoying that R4V cash, the legal funding of all the Venezuela migration with US tax dollars. Research R4V, folks. This is not a migrant crisis. It is legally funded with US tax dollars. Nobody on the news will ever say R4V. Biden/Harris funded R4V. With your tax dollars.
That-Guy-Over-There8@reddit
Please post this on r/GunsAreCool
I doubt you will change any of their minds there, but they really do need to hear this.
Billy_Bob_Joe_Mcoy@reddit
Everyone who joined this group is probably banned from that group.
That-Guy-Over-There8@reddit
Funny you should say that. I just now got banned from there after treating them to logic for months. My comment was "That's on the mother, not the gun". Regarding a woman who left her kid in a car with a gun in Utah. I'm surprised it took so long.
NineTenSix@reddit
What are the solutions that do not violate the rights of gun owners? And who are the pro-gun rights politicians who are supporting these measures?
toddsputnik@reddit
I am a law abiding citizen. Bruen is law. I abide.
AaronSlaughter@reddit
We need real 2a people to be part of the regulating system. Personally I say ban nothing, but create a tier system to allow easy access to ownership without gatekeeping or disincentivizing. If people like op speak for the the 2a rights effort, far more Middle of the road people will join the far left side and ban everything they're afraid of, which would suck. Ban nothing. Regulate everything.
Bigvapor01@reddit
We have the ability to have armed personnel in schools. The left wants this to happen. It helps push their gun control agenda.
InevitableTheOne@reddit
Having armed personnel in school is something the left wants to push gun control?
ButtholePatrol_@reddit
I kinda fail to see the point of this post? It just seems like a boiler plate reiteration of what you’d find on any gun forum of the most die hard single issue voter. If anything it’s more like masturbation. Anyone that’s anti gun knows people who post like this aren’t the target for changing a mind and wouldn’t waste their time on you. If anything they go after people that aren’t the die hard 2A supporters, they go after the large percentage of those AR15 shooters who maybe shoot once every few months. Got it as a gift. Own a few guns. And have families they care for and are more than a single issue voter. And at the end of the day this whole guns over all attitude is reaching a cringe level that a normal regular gun owner isn’t into. Anti gun people aren’t even considering you a target for gun control. We get it, you’re super dooper Into your guns, and that’s fine. But there’s a lot of gun owners who like guns, but aren’t obsessed.
Reesespeanuts@reddit
"I know this might come across as "preaching to the choir, but it needs to be said."
Do you know what sub your in? You are preaching to the choir. Go into r/politics or r/news if you want to go into the lions den.
dirtysock47@reddit (OP)
If I posted this there, it would be deleted before I could finish saying "Excalifragilisticexpealidocious".
Anyways, it's not like gun control supporters don't come here, they always come to the pro-gun subs after a major mass shooting.
Reesespeanuts@reddit
True. It would be deleted or downvoted into oblivion.
HellBringer97@reddit
I don’t think OP’s name is Daniel.
GamingPugFather@reddit
Gun grabbers do not care about facts. They just want you go be disarmed and at the mercy of the government all in name of feelings and emotions
dmills13f@reddit
Hope you posted this elsewhere.
humpycove@reddit
My vote is for you!!!! Well said!
10gaugetantrum@reddit
Just learned there was a murderer in a school with a gun. Time to google.
BigassLawnmower1776@reddit
Preaching yes but you get an Amen from me!
I take the issue of gun violence in America very seriously but the lack of constructive conversations between responsible armed Americans and law makers is something that appalls me. The debate immediately goes to guns without considering issues such as mental illness and our education environment.
Even issues that some gun owners might support such as reasonable restrictions on ownership such as people with severe mental illness, that are really a 4th and 14th amendment debate get completely ignored by lawmakers. Our existing laws are shit for gun owners compared to other gun friendly countries with much lower crime rates, and lawmakers don't understand the bullshit they spit from their mouths and what we already put up with.
Murky-Sector@reddit
There aren't any here however
dirtysock47@reddit (OP)
They usually come to the pro-gun subs right after a major mass shooting, so some will probably come here.